Installing a DRO on a PM-940 Milling Machine - 4-Axis EL400
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Today I'm installing an Electronica EL400 4-Axis DRO on my new Precision Matthews PM-940M milling machine. This install is going to require a bunch of custom work, so today we'll go over the design and start making the parts we need for the install.
Tools used in this video:
*This site contains affiliate links for which I may be compensated
Shars 440V 4" Mill Vise (Amazon*): amzn.to/3hZooyD
HFS 190-Piece (0.061-0.250") Gage Pin Set Minus (Amazon*): amzn.to/2DDSAf3
Shars 8" Dial Height Gauge (eBay*): ebay.to/2APqM7E
HHIP 2-4-6 Blocks (pair) (Amazon*): amzn.to/2Wi03eM
Aventor 8" DPS IP54 Caliper (Amazon*): ebay.to/37y1Tg3
General Tools Tap Wrench Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/2znrcOW
6" Bending Brake Vise Jaws (Amazon*): amzn.to/3k78aUQ
2" Kant Twist Universal Clamp (Amazon*): amzn.to/2UG76wv
YG-1 3/8" Alu-Power end mill (eBay*): ebay.to/2ssO9iv
ER20 TTS Clone Toolholders (eBay*): ebay.to/2srqwaa
Baldor 332B 3/4HP Buffer (Amazon*): amzn.to/2GqOCMZ
Yeti Rambler 14ox Mug (Amazon*): amzn.to/3nAC59q
Haimer Zero Master Mini 3D Sensor (Amazon*): amzn.to/2PVA7mn
Haimer Short Probe 0.2" Veraion (Amazon*): amzn.to/32Dl9Ir
DRO Pros 4-axis Mill Kit: www.dropros.co...
6" Silicon Carbide Deburring Wheel (MSC): www.mscdirect....
nice work! that PM looks like a nice size mill.
I guess you saw I totally stole your fix-it-in-post gag. Thanks for the inspiration. :)
@@Clough42 perfect application & flawless execution!
New Tool envy detected !
you two cant be chit - chatting! your video's are my excuse for not finishing the projects i start!
Well Tony, we can't ALL have Maho's... or wait maybe I could post a Maho into MY shop!
I once spent around 8 hours making, remaking, remaking....etc etc an item I could have purchased for less than $20. Someone ran their mouth about “why didn’t you just buy it?”
Because I now have the skills to bore tapers on my lathe, quickly and accurately, that’s why. Learning skills and doing good work is never a waste of time. 😉
I think a majority of the time I spend in the shop is learning how to do things, as opposed to actually doing them. When I do something unfamiliar for the first time, it takes longer. Once I get it figured out so it runs smoothly, it gets boring and it's time to learn something new or add on a few more layers of complexity.
@@Clough42 what I find amazing is how something that takes hours to do the first time, takes minutes the next.
@@chrisj4570g Well said !
@@scottyshaffer6103 I agree completely, I estimate I have spent about 16 hours fabricating the parts and redisinging the parts that came with the power drive for my mill table but I wanted it to look and function like it was built for it.
Those who criticize your skills probably don't have enough of their own. Just sayen
I appreciate you both showing errors and explaining how you caused them. That is a good thing to show.
I agree, attention to detail even when just making a bracket, why not 👍
LOL, I'm glad I didn't know this when I started my career as a Machinist. Never even saw a DRO for 5 years while working. (yes I get it's a joke)
Mate, loved your comment about the precision thing, spot on.
I have always said, aim for perfection, and if you are a little bit out, you are ONLY a little bit out, aim for near enough and: Well you can guess the rest. Keep up the good work buddy.
I wrote something similar, then, reading through the comments and came across yours. I've left mine in but just want to recognise you were 1st.
Just make sure, that the mill isn't in the shot with the mirrored part, because if it flips too, you will again have two wrong parts.
Pro tip.
" A mill isn't a mill without a DRO." Tell that to any machinest predating 1960 or so.
You mean the lot who walked 15 km to school through tunnels dug in the snow and ate some cold gravel for lunch?
And it was uphill both ways!
@wags My engineering life started with a file! learn to use it before you start on the big toys! - i wouldn't want to go back to it though the skill comes in handy - DRO no different! the skills to do the job first then the tool that makes it easer! I fact in the 1960's they used every modern development they had ! no different from today
And ask these guys about how much work they did didn’t meet specs. I went through that myself for decades.
Maybe you haven't noticed, this isn't the 60s.
Catch up.
Oh dear.... 98% ? Is that 'scale to fit'?
I've done that before, and took a week to find the error. Now I never trust printer settings!
Even plotters I'll give the gimlet eye to until I'm comfortable with the settings. One place I worked we trashed about $1,000 of transparency consumables on a brand new plotter, making *ONE* sheet for an optical comparator because the printer driver was "helping" to fit the entire drawing within the Transparency Sheet. Printers can be very pernicious about where in the chain settings are made as well (Application, Printer, Driver).
19:36 Ah yes, the ol' "Flip it in post" trick. 😂
I'd just turn it inside out, just sayin'...
I've only noticed the Notliw vise. Is that a russian brand?
@@torstenb5248 No, it is a Factory Second from Wilton, and it's problem is the vise can only be loosened...
Those "press brake" jaws are slick. I've not seen those before.
Any chance a "Fireball Tool" vise is on your "to-do" list?
Seems you're enjoying that new horizontal tablesaw. =P
Missing those safety glasses when using the mill. lol but you figured it out.
I saw that too! Made me nervous watching that part of the video.
Blah Blah Blah
James, is the mill table at a comfortable level? Seems like you were having to bend over to operate handles.
I never understood that. 99% of the milling videos on RUclips, the operator is bending over to see their work.
@@number40Fan Some work is an inch high, some is 18 inches high. If you have the table at say 5 feet above ground level to see 1" parts without bending over, the top of the mill head will be around 7 feet. If you raise it another foot and a half to mill the 18 inch part, you will be reaching up to 8 or 9 feet to reach the controls.
In general the table height on most mills and lathes is around 40 inches form the ground. This is a reasonable compromise to make the controls easily reachable while keeping the work in a reasonable location for people with good eyesight. Unfortunately older machinists usually have less than good eyesight. :-(
@@lwilton Yes, when they admire(?) your work and say “Man, that guy has one good eye”, maybe they really mean you only have one good eye. lol
"A mill isn't a mill until it has a DRO?" Whomever said that just isn't a machinist, maybe. I've been running my mill with the dials since the mid 1980s, and fulfilled milspec and aeronautics contracts just fine with no DRO, thank you.
Learn the trade. (I don't mean you, Clough. You are doing a good job of things.) I just mean before there was such a thing as DROs, battleships got built. Fighter aircraft got built. M1 Garands got built. Tanks got built, as well as automobiles, refrigerators, 120 story elevators and escalators got built. People just learned how to use the machine tools they had available, including how to actually read dials and compensate for backlash, and it was no big deal. It was part of the trade, as I was/am.
A DRO isn‘t a DRO until it has a Mill!
What if its a lathe ?
A Bro isn't a Bro until you've made chips together.
You stated that you want to "crank the handles", then immediately turn on the power feed and stand back and watch it run. Cranking the handles if fun, until it isn't. Thanks for the time and effort of making these very good videos.
He isn't lazy. He just knows when it's time to stand back and let a pro do the work /s
Happy New Year from Scotland !
I've noticed in your videos that yo are a perfectionist, hitting numbers, cleanliness etc. etc. People criticise me too for being fussy and they just don't get it. I've had a few apprentices in my time and I always teach them to aim for perfection all the time in everything they do (not just in the shop) so that when you don't quite make it, at least you'll be dam close and maybe still use or save the part.
Others just like to judge based on their own in-abilities and most couldn't put a nut in a monkey's mouth.
My old mill dials for the X-Y is 0.125 per rev, the quill (Z) is 0.9 per rev. I installed a DRO and saved my sanity!!!! Enjoy your new mill and DRO.
I have had scales mounted on the front and the back of the table, and both can have issues. I know it's a LOT of work, but check out how Robin Renzetti mounted his inside the machine. X under the table, and Y inside the base casting. Total protection, best accuracy, and not in the way. I like to think that I will do it that way if I ever have to do that again.
Heh..ever since I got my mill and lathe everything is within a thou....DRO Syndrome...
Good for you on setting up and learning how to hit your targets. There are a lot of hack machinists who dont care about it and do it for a living, not as a hobby.
I love how that always happens. Get a bigger machine then promptly run out of space in the travel.
Always. Next week I have parts to run in two set-ups because 34" of Y travel is insufficient.
I Love that you take the time to make every piece you make to the best of your ability even when precision doesn’t matter.
I fitted a 3 axis DRO to my Bridgeport. what a world of difference. it made the machine more user friendly 100% The quill and knee compensator is a god send. Your Mill looks a nice sturdy looking outfit.
All the best 👍🏻
Forget about the haters ....Really like you your presentation style along with the light humour ,fast becoming a fan 👏👏 .I'm jealous of your shop .
I like your explanation why you try to hit close tolerances when it's not important. I work in the same way in my homeshop. Just to find out how accurate i can be with my really old machines (they all are +50 years old. exept for the newest one, a NC vertical machining center from 1975 🙂.
Keep up the the good work!
I really liked the electronic leadscrew project. I have to get one of those for my old turret-lathe.
Adam Booth said in a video many years ago: "It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's okay if it is."
nice work , if you keep following viewers comment you endup with astronomical bills :)
I absolutely love your outlook on why to be fussy and actually hit the tolerances even if it does not matter. I am a Cnc programmer and even if my drawling says I have .02 I still work to nominal. In the end it pretty much takes the same time so why not challenge your own skills every time!!!!
I had to go on disability after 25 years mostly on the Bridgeport and I wish I had bought a mill back when money was good. I spent it all on toys which are long gone now. I guess watching is better than nothing.
‘Why worry about accuracy and precision?’ - because. How you do anything is how you do everything.
Keep up the great work! I’m putting a 3-axis DRO on my old Millrite Turret and I like your TIG Y axis mount. I’m taking notes. Aloha 🤙🏼
I'm so raging about you making your own independent life decisions and striving for precision beyond that which was required! How dare you! Worst video ever. 🤣😜😎 JK! It's great to keep up the precision even when not needed! Keep up the good work! Thanks for the video!
Good video James.
As far as it goes, you're an engineer and you make the parts to the best of your ability.
Which is the actual name of the game.
You obviously take pride in your work, and it shows.
Keep up the good work and ignore the negative comments. 🇬🇧🇬🇧😷🤔
Okay... I dream of having a ship like yours someday, but as of yet have zero experience. So please forgive what may be a stupid question. You're preparing to install a DRO kit, but @23:27 in the video, you say you are going to drop your Z the required 7.6mm by using the DRO...but how can you have a DRO if you don't yet have the DRO kit installed?
I agree with aiming small. For me, just learning from yourself, Blondie, Abom, Max, Tony and the ocasional others, I've been able to make some parts very close on worn out stuff. Also learned how to fix stuff I messed up. I'm 70 and just starting in the last year & 1/2. Built a milling machine out of junk that holds my lathe up so I can use the power feed from the lathe for the table bolted to the cross feed. Not rigid enough. Soon, they will have an ELS.
I am thinking of purchasing this machine. They make a DRO for it, the MagXact by Precision Matthews 3 axis Milling Machine DRO. Is this DRO no good ? thanks !
You certainly don't need to justify your goals of precision. Those being critical of you - being critical of YOUR own work - clearly do not understand the "art" of machining and fabrication.
I installed a Mitutoyo,3 axis,KC DRO on my Jet JTM-2 mill ,over thirty years ago. I love the accuracy and,versatility.
Hey, the raging in the comments "boosts engagement" or something 😜
That's a far sight beefier than the PM bench top mill Blondihacks has, that's for sure...
Normally I don't feel the need to comment while watching your videos.... and while it might be considered splitting hairs... scribing a line on aluminum is a no-no because it creates a stress riser, and the material will crack along the line given the slightest chance. Aluminum parts are not scribed in aerospace, or on race cars if the builder cares. In fact, had that been unannealed 6061, the material will often crack along the bend line, aided by the scribe. Granted, this is a low-vibration application and no one will die(!) if it fails, but it's along the same lines as your "aim for perfection" philosophy - the same goes for not scribing aluminum :)
The only time it's acceptable is when the scribe line will be removed later via machining.
Well, my conclusion from this video is that when I finally shop for a mill, I'll be looking for one with a DRO (or at least the slides) already installed.... Cool project.
I think your backwards on climb vs conventional push/pull. The saw is spinning in the same direction so it’s still going to pull itself into the cut. You’re Y-axis is locked or at least it should be locked because there’s no reason for it to be unlocked.
You are absolutely right about trying t hit the target dimension every cut. Otherwise, you get complacent and when it counts, it usually trsults as a unnecessary remake. Take pride in doing exacting work, a sheet metal worker can get by with the 1/8" tolerances.
I agree...if you can hit the dimensions 100%, why not. Regardless of whether it’s critical or not.
From this point on and with your expertise on all that you might be the first to build up a combination of lathe and mill for the first hobby 5-axis turnmill on an epoxy-granite base with inlayed steel parts to set guidances and components on it. You might end up on a 1,5 to 2 ton multi-purpose small-size cnc-machine.
I don't know what it is, but I'm expecting either Kramer or Jerry from Seinfeld to pop up on the screen with Clough42 intro theme.
You should make a power drawbar for it so you can use your TTS holders in the manual mill.
Every tool I used today was in a TTS tool holder.
I'm super jealous of your shop. Do you have a good "walk around" video that shows it's true size? Need to sell the wife on some home improvements! ;)
On day one in Union Elevator school in our print reading course we were repeatedly taught do Not Ever scale directly off of plans and I've never forgotten that.
Hi James - How did you size the Z axis scale for the Mill? I can see yours runs nearly to the top of the column. I assumed you wouldn't need to go completely to the top. I reviewed Stefan's video and his scale seems to align mid-head, and stop in line with the mill head being at the top of the dovetail on the column. Haven't found any good literature so far
I think the answer to the question is: The question is never "why?", as a hobby machinist, the questions are "Can I afford it?" and "Why the heck not?"
I like that prybar.
Why do all my screwdrivers look like chisels and why do all of my chisels look like screwdrivers?
I totally get and agree with your comment about precision. If you never practice and use the should necessary to do precision work correctly how will you ever do in it when it is critical? Thanks again James I really enjoy your content!
Nothing wrong with wanting things done right. There are plenty of machinists that do not take pride in their work. Those guys complaining probably dont clean their vices before planking them on a swarf riddled table anyway.🤣
I had installed a DRO on my G0704 and many of the same things you show I had to do also. The covers had to be cut down and I did the same, clamp to the table and run the slitting saw, I was able to utilize the brackets that came with the kit by cutting out what I needed from them, they where nice thick angles but the holes and slots where in the wrong place. I watched a lot of videos before tackling the job and each one tackled the Y axis differently, some had slab sides others had a slant, I see your has a slant with a protrusion at the rear so I can see why you went with the mouthing system you did.
I like your new mill, nice!
Nothing is a waste of time if you are setting yourself up for success. I’m the same way with 3D printing and am thinking of moving from IT to making chips for a living. I just wish I could meet some of you guys I watch to find out if it’s right for me.
Absolutely correct. I strive for half a thousandths or,less on everything I make.
" A mill isn't a mill without a DRO" ?? Spoken like a true PHD. Thats all I will say about that.
Disregard the request about the vise brake jaws. I found them on Amazon.
Great vids. Mill looks a bit low and maybe as I get a bad back I have mine a little higher......bed a bit above waist for me. Guess height is just a pref.
I know if it’s over a year ago ..repetition of proper work practices raises your skill set, why practice inferior habits? … good job.
I agree with your prsision. I work on graphic equipment and I get yelled at at work because I am to practice some time. And I tell them if do I right now it's going to save me time later when you have trouble setting up and I have to recalibrate it properly. But you should clean the mill after the cuts
16:45 I think you are the first youtube channel I've seen using a tapping block when hand tapping. 🙂
Nice work. Heres a suggestion, lay a rag on top of your finished part when prying it off. It will keep it from flying off when the super glue gives way.
The classic page scaling on the drawing problem...been there a couple of times. Your philosophy re accuracy is spot on, choosing appropriate degree of tolerance to optimize production speed is only an issue in a production environment, if you have the luxury of time then spend it. The satisfaction of creating a thing well made is priceless.
29:52 My wife says I also struggle between trade offs involving rigidity, speed, and the size of my tool.
I really wouldn't bother about folk not understanding why an engineer always goes for the best accuracy and finish he can - it is a mind set that serves us well! we are not happy with a working program because it is not written well ! and for us a tolerance defines whether a part needs to be scrapped if we don't hit the numbers we shoot for! things i have given up trying to explain! why unseen pipes should be parallel with matching bends - why wires in trunking should be neat and strait - why owning guns is bad - and when playing an instrument, just because it sounded ok it was not done as intended so it is not good!
My dro install kit was ok however the challenge was tapping the cast iron in places, I ended up having to epoxy plugs in to take self cutting screws.
HAHA Love the TOT reference! He's a genius for error correction in post!
Nicely done, James!!! Happy New Year to you and the family!
That is very powerful editing software that can reverse a mirror image part to the correct orientation. 😂😂 Thanks again James!
It's called target _practise_ for a reason. I'm with you, take pride in your work and always strive to hit your targets.
Awesome! Thanks for sharing. Enjoyed the watch!
I unload trucks or a living, it's not critical, but I sill do the best job I can because it makes me feel good, that's all the reason you need.
And you are absolutely dead on about as close to tolerance as you can be. The phlosify being if it is worth doing, it is worth doing right.
no kidding the guys that say size don't matter are the very same guys that can't get it when size dose matter they and if they do have perfection it's because it's a pendulum and most of there work swings on eather side of perfect at times they luck out and stop dead nuts . and for me when you produce ausome products even when it's not important that's a gift of pride a man can only give to himself !
Is that just a blue sharpie? I'm having a hard time marking my parts...
That's a great method to fix a mirrored part, but you tapped the holes before so now you have left hand threads...
Put a DRO on my PM935. Quite a bit of futzing around, but it came out dead nutz on.
PLEASE DO NOT, clonk your spanners or whatever onto the table. You WILL make little dings in the table. You precision stone will soon tell you. Place a piece of wood, plastic or even cardboard on the table to place your tools on. This is good advice from a 40 Years plus machine tool fitter who over the Years had to redress many tables due to misuse by the operators. Well done by the way. Is your vice bending tool commercially available ? and who you bought it from. Thank you. Happy New Year from Australia.
I generally try to hit the pockets on the ends, but I'm sure I don't always. Table covers are on my list of things to make.
9:09 the second I heard This Old Tony, I knew I was about to hear the worst joke I’ve ever heard 😂
Hi why I cannot turn the hand crank on a lathe after I install the stepper motor after installing the stepper motor thanks Eli
Nice machine. Great narrative and video.
Thanks for sharing.
I see you don’t promote safety in your video when using machinery?
If some one feels using a tolerance is a waste,then I suggest to go and buy a six inch rule and wonder why things don't fit
The accuracy was spot on, it’s the journey of the task, not the task
you should always try to do the best you can at making any thing if close enough is okay probably should not be using a mill
Well said take the time to make things right ,you could have bought it but were is the fun there and you got the machine there
Nice mill, you look a little tall for it to crank it comfortably. You may consider blocking it up a couple of inches after using it for a while. See how your back holds up first! On your comment about getting your accuracy, you are completely correct. You need the set skills and experience to be able to hit the numbers when you NEED to, you can't do that if you go the " that'll do, it's good enough" route. When you strive to hit the numbers every time and eventually manage it, you WILL hit them when you need to. There is no substitute for experience, and experience on a particular machine that you own. That way you know what the machine and you are capable of.
Either I'm too tall, or the mill is too short. One is easier to fix. :)
Bean bags work well to dampen vibration..
Perfect practice leads to perfect results. Make every part precice it becomes habit
I agree with you. If you have the time to go to tight tolerances it is good practice.
Great install. Nothing helps accuracy like a DRO.
If you need a DRO you aint a real machinist.
But there is a thing called pride in workmanship
That sounds like a comment from someone in politics 😂
Simply outstanding!👍👍👍👍👍
Great video. I have a PM 940V so this is some good info.
HaHa you discovered the old adage, never scale the drawing, work to dimensions. From experience I can say it is important to have intermediate mounts with long scales. Supporting long scales only at the ends invites vibration into the scale at best giving a jitter in scale reading when running or at worst case rapidly wearing the scale and read head. These intermediate mounts need not be rigidly fixed to the scale. A simple channel with internal elastomer will do the trick.
Working to dimensions is ideal. But I'm human and I make mistakes handling numbers, so having a 1:1 drawing to compare is a good sanity check. For the same reason, it's really useful to lay out the features on the stock even if you're going to cut them with a DRO. It's a cheap way to catch mistakes while they're still easy to fix.
James, safety glasses! Oh, never mind.