Book trends might be a little bit like stocks: When something seems like it has taken a nosedive, that's the time to get in on it. It is tough right now, but epic fantasy will be back! Also, thank the fates that self-published fantasy is so viable now.
You’re paving the way with your series. Admittedly I haven’t read it(only because my TBR is stuffed with suneater and Malazan) but from the outside in I’m seeing your efforts.
Philip, I'm glad you said that! Granted, I may be partial: I'm working on the first story of a *massive* multi-volume epic fantasy based on Bronze Age Europe!
My concern is about things NOT shifting back, at least not without a seismic hit series. Look at YA. When Harry Potter was a big hit, many books published in YA targeted both male and female readers, and there was a brief golden age where YA had a variety of stories for many demographics. Then Twilight and Hunger Games came along, became massive hits, and shifted the YA landscape to something almost exclusively romance. Reading in writers’ forums, I have repeatedly seen debut authors wanting to break into YA being discouraged by agents and other would-be authors from featuring teenage male protagonists, or plots that do not focus on romance. Twilight book 1 was published 2005. We are now nearly twenty years into YA being essentially romance-only (although it was a gradual transition, with series like Maze Runner in the interim). Viewed that way, I think it was inevitable that publishing would shift to try to catch these YA readers (and their money!) as they aged up to adulthood. Thus: romantasy.
To add a little more…I’m kind of annoyed with myself that I didn’t see it approaching, but it was there all along in YA. If YA fails to produce any books for teenage boys - you have to look back to about 2007/8 for books that feature male teen protagonists in YA- then those readers will move on. Of course, some guys like romance too, but also many will move to Shonen manga or video game RPGs (or indie pub now with series like Cradle) to get the kinds of themes they want from fantasy. If those readers have lapsed due to trad pub not catering to them, then they’re not going to be there to form a demographic for new debut epic fantasy that deals with similar themes. So, in terms of trad publishing at least, I think the root of this problem, of epic fantasy dying, needs to be solved at middle grade and YA reading levels. Readers need a new book like a Harry Potter that appeals to all demographics, so that publishers will end their twenty year habit of putting all their eggs in one basket. Of course, that’s quite the ask!
That's an interesting point. And you're not wrong. It's certainly quite the ask, though. And easier said than done! :D The success of Harry Potter sparked readership in male and female audiences. But the same situation is not replicated with the success of YA Dystopian or YA urban fantasy. Generally speaking, I think most man do not like to read about romance in fantasy books. If we want romance-dominant stories, we would rather pick up romance books instead. We read epic fantasy not because it has romance. So who knows, maybe something widely acclaimed that will appeal to both men and women will appear again. Until then, we shall wait. :)
@@PetrikLeo Yeah, there’s certainly crossover where men enjoy romance and some women I know like the more battle-centric elements of epic fantasy, but in general I do think there is demographic difference in what appeals to us in stories. The trad publishing houses certainly market their books that way, and, I just don’t think there’s enough in the YA category right now to appeal to young male readers, which are the demographic required to build a varied and fully populated readership for adult epic fantasy further down the line. I see the observation trotted out that teenage boys don’t want to read, but of course they won’t if everything in a category is geared, by and large, to exclude them. It’s just frustrating to me as a teacher to see publishing, an industry that prides itself on progressiveness and diversity essentially erasing an entire group of readers. People always say the pendulum will swing back- they said it about YA, but it hasn’t for nearly 2 decades. My biggest concern is the idea that fantasy reading could become gender-locked, and we have precedent for that, unfortunately, in the same way that video games as a medium have traditionally mainly been targeted at males. Idealist that I am, I just want great entertainment media that all can enjoy, rather than publishers being so one-sided in how they market and sell their content. So to all those saying they appreciate this as a chance to get through their backlogs, well I hope they’ve got twenty years plus worth of new books to get through unless something changes drastically!
The pressure to keep the word-count down has always been a big deal in the traditional pub world, so I'm unsurprised that the pressure has risen along with production costs. When my agent was shopping The Severing Son with acquiring agents in NYC (2016-18), we were often advised to take it down to somewhere under 120K (from about 160K range). As an exercise, I did a draft at 120, which required stripping a lot of world-building, the prologue, and ALL of the scenes that pertained to events in books 2 and 3. My wife, in particular, hated that version of the book. It makes me glad that I walked away from trad pub. I'm very glad that you're talking about this. I hope the conversation reaches the conference tables in NYC. Keep up the great work, and thanks for all you do for readers and writers!
Thank you for your insight, Vaughn! Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Bigger books doesn't always mean a better book. But what if it IS? Especially when the author still have visions and story to achieve. The word count pressure is crazy.
@@PetrikLeoASOIAF is a great example of this. Imagine removing so much detail that makes the world feel so real and grand, that adds so much depth to his characters? To be fair though this is pretty rare. Few authors actually need 800+ pages to tell the story they're trying to tell (Sanderson? Jordan, a bunch of new quasi YA pretending to be adult fantasy coming out right now etc etc). Even if there were no publishing constraints we should normalize fantasy being 400-500 pages.
Hey Petrik, Thanks so much for making this video. I'm a high school English teacher and my wife is a college professor. We just finished our epic fantasy novel and have been going through the querying process. Our book is over 200k words and we're getting immediately rejected by every agent we query. The agents aren't even reading our sample pages and they certainly aren't requesting a full. The only person who's requested a full from us is Matt Bialer, Pat Rothfuss's agent, who asked for a rewrite and asked us to fix some things before resubmitting to him. We've recently done so, but we haven't heard back from him yet. The agents we've queried have mostly expressed interest in cozy fantasy, romantasy, urban fantasy, etc. etc. It's very disheartening. We've worked on this novel for 4-5 years and we're likely going to have to indie publish. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just wasn't expecting this to happen.
Hey, you're welcome! Thanks for sharing your experience. Remember that self-publishing is certainly a viable option. You have to do some proper research before it, though. As for Matt Bialer, he's GREAT! It's awesome you got him to read your book. I talked about The Failures by Benjamin Liar in today's video. That's a book agented by him! :)
I’ve traditionally published two fantasy novels. Both times the publisher made me trim a series worth of ideas into a stand-alone. I’m self-publishing my next book
I may be an outlier here, but I almost never justify the $30 hardcover price for a 300 page book. But I will for the 600+ So any new releases with 100k word cap, well, I come back when there's a $1.99 ebook deal.
I don't think you're an outlier on this. Yes, we shouldn't judge quality immediately based on the page count. But with the unlimited number of books to read, I'm not willing to spend $30 for a standard small book or $15 for a novella/short novel ebook.
Hadn´t thought about that, but now that I look at my shelves, the only hardcover series I own is "the Wheel of Time", and those are BIG books. Maybe my subconscious at work there....😁
Traditional publishing might be forsaking epic and dark fantasy, but that doesn't mean novelists are. There are a lot of indie authors out there, like myself, trying bring back long-term epic stories. We need to head in the direction of indie-publishing so that passionate, unrestrained stories can be made to the public. The reading community is no longer held at the whim of mainstream publishers, so we need to take advantage of that.
Novelist and self-published fantasy authors are certainly staying with epic fantasy. And I'm happy for that. That's why I still read self-published fantasy books! :)
This is one of the main reasons why self-publishing is so appealing. Having to limit yourself to 100K words is abysmal. Even 130K feels short to me. I watched a recent Elliot Brooks video on "longer" novels and she was listing things like 'Shadow of the Gods'. And I was like, really!? SotG is considered CHONKY! Seems the attention span of our world today has just fallen for many reasons (thanks TikTok), but like you said, there are plenty of people who are hungry for longer, more epic reads. Hopefully, thanks to indie authors, we will see a return of the epics, or maybe at least less constraints on length.
It's all about being quick and fun enough now. 😅 Shadow of the Gods is average sized, imo. I consider anything smaller than 500 pages or 200k words not a chonky novel.
Maybe its not about 'attention span' but about amateur authors learning to edit their books and focus on quality, not quantity. So much of fantasy is bloated by extraneous and indulgent nonsense that meanders to nowhere because these 'writers' don't know how to plot their books or hit an emotional beat without overexplaining. That's not even getting into all the info dumps and random characters who serve no purpose. Fantasy authors need to grow up and learn to be professional writers. This word limit is good first step.
@@hunterghobadi1269 I get what you're saying. Words need to be meaningful, and I'm not advocating for long novels just for the sake of being long. However, any time you put strict limits on people, in my experience, that's generally not a good thing. Creativity should not have borders. I get that there needs to be SOME line in order to keep people accountable and, as you said, focusing on plot and avoiding the extraneous. I just think that 100K is a bit nonsensical for adult fiction.
@@astevenswrites Actually, limitations DO incentivize creativity, it forces the writer to come up with a cohesive vision within a set boundary rather than be let loose to self-destruct due to an over-encumbered ego. Almost every 'creative' talks about their publishers giving them "enough rope to hang themselves" when not being provided with guidelines. If the current situation in epic fantasy was such that creatives had great ideas stifled due to greedy executives looking to cash in on social media trends then maybe your "attention span" argument would hold merit. But that is NOT what is happening. 100,000 words is not brief, it cannot fit in a twitter post or Instagram card. It is an extensive amount of pages only seen as limiting by those who are too stubborn to edit down their manuscripts. What HAS been happening in the Epic Fantasy world is long overdue. It was not greedy executives hurting professional writers, it was lazy and indulgent authors who would ramble on for 400,000 words with nothing to say. Epic Fantasy has burnt out all its good will, churning out unfinished series, unedited books, copious world-building, and almost no artistic breakthroughs. The heroes of this genre like Martin are nothing but crooks, and finally the publishers have said enough is enough. Maybe now epic fantasy can finally grow and evolve after years of bloat and arrogance.
@@hunterghobadi1269 Fair enough. I think my "attention span" argument was a bit more of a generalized assessment than an accurate remark about what is happening in the publishing industry. I don't have firsthand knowledge, so I can't say for sure. But I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. We have seen it abused, though I don't think that's the majority. I just hope that we can breathe life into epic fantasy, in whatever form it takes in 2024 and beyond, and have it be a positive subgenre of fantasy that people who love it can enjoy.
The quote from the author about being dropped for being for being profitable, but not profitable enough reminds me of Wizards of the Coast ending the long running, profitable, D&D tie-in novel lines because they werent profitable enough. Shortsighted and stupid, but these are the decisions you get from people who get degrees in how to use Excel.
It's a problem across all industries. Too much wealth concentrated in too few hands, and all those hands are people with no care for what they're doing beyond large numbers on Excell spread sheets.
Degrees in how to use Excel. Brutal. 😂😂😂 That said, I get what you're saying. I'm see this kind of situation happening more often lately in other medium and franchise as well.
I am from Spain, we have many fantasy writers, i would say thousands. But somehow the anglo writers get more attention. There are much more writers than readers out there. I am sure there are very good novels who aren't popular because the writer doesn't live in an English speaking country. One example is Onmagier, a trilogy of epic fantasy from the Netherlands kinda popular in continental Europe translated to a few languages (including Spanish) but almost unknown in the English speaking world. The epic fantasy looks like it's dying because anglo publishers barely translate foreign books besides the Witcher from Poland which was an exception.
I speak Spanish (native), and learning French, so I read in French. And this happends with every community who isn't English-native🥲If it isn't in English, they are only popular in their countries. It's so such a shame, because we have soo many good authors! Precious Stone Trilogy is one example of popular trilogy, back in 2010-2012, it's a German author, but it isn't Epic Fantasy, it is YA time-travel for kids. "Cadáver exquisito" by Agustina Bazterrica (Dystopian-Argentina) it's popular too. All of them aren't fantasy. I don't know those books if they are good, I haven't read them, I only talk about how popular they are.
Good point. There are still definitely non-English Epic Fantasy works that we don't know because they haven't been translated. I haven't heard of Onmagier!
I’d love to see the success of 3 body problem normalize translating a series that does well in Spain (or anywhere) into English! Plus it would give bi-lingual people some very cool translating and editing jobs 😊
"I don't have anything against Romantasy, I just wish there was more balance in publishing different genres." Yes, thank you! It also reeks of price gouging. I feel like it's less the covering of production costs and more the making of profits when even 300 page books suddenly cost double (or even more) than they used to. One thing I also noticed (which might have to do with book tok and booktube) is that books are put out at an enormous rate. It might just be me, but I get the feeling that as an author, if you put out one book per year, you're already counting amongst the slow writers (?). Anyway, nice video!
Thank you so much! Glad to hear you agreed with what I said. Not sure about one book per year being counted as slow, though. I think many readers appreciate consistency and transparency more than an author putting out work quickly like Sanderson hahaha! But you're not totally wrong. I know many indie fantasy writers publish about two or three books a year. It's incredible.
The hell of it is, I like romance. Many of my favorite stories of all time are actually romance or fantasy romance. Romance with actual healthy and meaningful communication and emotional connections between characters, mutual respect and mutual support in times of crisis and the maintenance of friendships and familial relationships outside the main romance. What's being marketed as romance these days is not the romance I want. It's all so shallow, lacking meaningful themes and conflicts and... you get the idea.
I totally get the idea! That's the kind of romantic relationship I like to read as well in my fantasy books. Relationship with understanding and effort instead of focusing on who gets to bang who and how detailed they are.
Wow this is kind of depressing, but I can't blame it on Trad Pub. Readers' tastes change and things go in and out of "fad." I'm sure we will be due for an epic fantasy resurgence soon. In the mean time, I'm happy I'm self published. I couldn't imagine writing a 100K sequel to Dragon Mage!
Totally true. 100,000 words sequel to Dragon Mage will most likely be underwhelming. Dragon Mage was incredible! Cannot wait to reread it using the leatherbound edition and then move to the sequel, Champion of the Fallen! :)
Lets see, just finished Empire of silence, almost done with Leviathin wakes, about to start Oathbring then Of Darkness and Light will be started right after that. I plan on reading Assassin's Apprentice soon, and i need to finish The Bone ship series and plan on Reading Lock Lamore soon.....I'm doing what i can to keep Epic SFF up.
I'm working on my 1st book which is epic high fantasy/sci-fi mixed in. Currently a bit over 100K words, imo the word count being lower does not lessen the books quality. I am currently writing the final battle scene and will wrap up book 1 soon, I can see where making books 200Kish can make them too drawn out and ruin the pacing. On the flip side I love The Stormlight Archive, it all comes down to how well it is written, nothing to do with the length tbh.
100k words doesn't definitely mean a bad book immediately. Peter McLean is super good at writing books at 100-150k words long. But what I'm saying, what if the author is not even done with the book yet but already told to stop? I can't imagine Name of the Wind (260k words) to be told to stop at 100k words, for example.
Haircut looking sharp Petrik! Great discussion topic. Those word count limits are criminal. A sprawling word count can be a problem, but it can also mean you get a lot of story in one book. As you said, there is no shortage of epic fantasy demand, and no shortage of epic fantasy stories in self-publishing. At worst, I hope this shift brings more readers/authors to indie. I think cheap ebook prices in indie force trad publishers to focus on the paperback market, which means they are more subject to production costs.
Thank you so much, my friend! Yeah, I don't mind trimming down and editing of course. That will always happen. We don't want a super bloated word count like The Wheel of Time. There might indeed be a correlation between cheap indie ebook to publishers' focus on physical books!
It's also about the readers, their level of training (I'm talking about education), their ability to use their remaining energy after completing all the necessary tasks at home and at work (many want something pleasant and that doesn't require a lot of brainpower)
Remaining energy is a good point. Sometimes when I'm super tired, I don't have the energy to stay awake reading epic fantasy books with heavy world-building. 😅
I think part of the problem is the way books are typically priced. Publishers think that, since they are going to charge $20 for your book no matter how big it is, it needs to be short so they can maximize profit. But epic fantasy fans who like ginormous bookstoppers would probably agree to pay more for those books rather than see them just stop making them! Just my 2 cents--great video.
Thank you so much! And no. I agree with you. Some of the short books I've seen are ridiculously priced. I'm talking about 100-200 pages books priced at $16 for their Kindle price. Miss me with that price.
Maybe this will mean that my favourite format, the mass market paperback, will make a comeback because of the cost factor. Interesting discussion so thank you.
Unlikely. Most of the costs are fixed and mass markets still need a lot of paper while having much less margin. In fact the economic factors of production cost and currently eliminating the mass market segment because of the small margins.
I am actually writing an epic fantasy right now and you gave me a lot of things to think about! I also read epic fantasy. I love Brandon Sanderson, of course, and I'm not sure where Sarah J Mass fits, but I jumped on that bandwagon and am going through her series right now. I'm still trying to figure out if I like her writing style. However, they are a long epic series.
Good luck with your writing! Sarah J Maas fits into romantasy. Nothing wrong with it. It's good to have epic fantasy and romantasy coexisting together. The problem is when one is destroyed over the other. :)
It's so true. This is happening everywhere, not just in the publishing industry and it's just sad. Companies just want one thing: more money. They cut down on EVERYTHING, just to have a little more profit in their pockets. It's very unfortunate how things have gotten to this point. And i dont know how it's going to stop. Also the thing about spice: It's so frustrating how people only care about "spice". There's more to a book than just spicy scenes! Character development, plot pacing, topics the book might touch on (eg The Rape of Nanking in The Poppy War). It's jist frustrating to see a lot of people caring about spicy scenes.. Also, great pun about Dune. I laughed out loud 😂
In the 80's it's for men fiction reader who search spice. Today it's female readers who read romances and similar stuffs. The majority of trash novels are wrtitten by women and read by women. it's a short time phanomenon. In 5 years the trend would disappear.
@fabienlyraud8475 well I don't mind the trend, I just hate how when I recommend someone a book, their first question is "does it have spice?" And if I say no, they completely dismiss the book
@@TAFalling This really happens in real life?🤣I don't have readers friends, soo this sounds soo weird for me. I think the same, it's a trend, in 5 years when readers grow up more they gonna see that everything they read it's the SAME book (aka Watppad reader/Sarah J Mass readers) and they are gonna look for something else. But in 5 years probably "spice" are gonna stay as "erotica" like always been this kind of book. "Romantasy", too, it's always been there but it didn't have a name like nowdays.
Exactly! It's not in publishing industry. Gaming companies have been doing insane cutoff lately. Even cutting off concept artists with prestige and incredible talent and results. I actually don't mind a book having spice, even if it's not what I want in an SFF book. But that's the thing. Asking this question toward every series is too much. At the rate this is going, they should just pick up actual erotica than searching for romantasy. 😅
Is it so bad to have shorter fantasies? Look at tv-shows since 2012-2013 8-12 episodes max and not 20-23 per season. They got a lot more exciting, tighter and better quality. I think it could be the same with books. WoT is a killer of souls, malazan etc for people who cannot commit because of time restraint (families etc) Old days trilogy was shorter and exciting. I love Brandon but books are too long even if I like them. Also I’m new to fantasy (2y) so I can’t tell that epic fantasy is dying, just finding out Abercrombie, sun eater, Brandon etc. What’s your thought on shorter 130-200k books -like tv shows- instead making them tighter and better than a bloated book of 300+ words? Happy to hear your answer.
This is why I'm glad the indie markwt has boomed and is being taken more seriously. Trad can push their trends all they want, but we have so many genres and subgenres, and even subcategories within to reach these niches. I don't think, because of indie fantasy, that epic fantasy will ever die. Itsgetting easier for indies to reach bookstores and market places to the point that many readers don't realize they're buying indie. And that's not even getting into the covers. All hail epic fantasy!
Epic fantasy will always reign for me. And as I repeatedly said, I'm so pleased self-published fantasy has come such a long way. And it keeps growing more rapidly. I know I have epic fantasy books to read, no shortage of them, in self-published and indie market!
I am now 47 years old. I've been reading Fantasy since I was 13, and growing up I was fortunate enough to read Tad Williams, Raymond Feist, Robert Jordan and David Eddings. Even early Terry Goodkind was really good. More recently Brandon Sanderson has earned his place among the greats for me. I truly was spoiled in the riches while growing up. Thus my love for the genre was formed. The only reason I managed to pass along the "bug" of fantasy to my kids was because me and my wife introduced them to the old masters. Unfortunately, these days, we are reduced to an handful of gems a year (such as the recent "The will of the many"), and that's it. Not nearly enough for instilling the love of the genre to a teen starting out his literary journey without guidance (as I was back in the day).
Thank you for sharing your story! I'm pleased to hear you got to pass your love for the fantasy genre to your kids. And you're right. It is incredibly rare to find a new fantasy book as amazing as The Will of the Many now. :')
Thank you for making this video! I like discussing topics like this with irl writer friends, and I couldn't resist commenting below. I have some dissenting opinions, but I also haven't read all the same books you have, so please take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I think the main problem is publicity and trends, as you pointed out. Most of the time, people will buy books that get good marketing, and that's it's own issue. We need a way to get epic fantasy to blow up on TikTok I guess lol (I can't believe I'm typing that but it might actually be true). The relative lack of publicity is absolutely due to trends, but I'm also struggling to think of a time when epic fantasy was getting a lot of publicity outside of ASOIAF, Kingkiller, and Sanderson type unicorns. Especially for longer books. I don't think epic fantasy has ever had its "golden age" in the first place. It's always been just a few standouts, and then otherwise, epic fantasy as a genre and its authors go relatively unnoticed by mainstream readers. I do enjoy chonky epic fantasy books, and I'm one of the people who still thinks that most of them do not have plots or prose that support the page count. I think this about many of the classic and most often-recommended fantasy titles as well as newer ones. I don't think that pushing authors to lower the word count is a huge problem yet, especially if once authors are allowed to publish those relatively shorter books, publishers are then more lax about letting them write longer books as an established name for an established audience. I feel like authors should "prove themselves" before publishing huge tomes. Rothfuss, for example, should be an exception, not an expectation. I feel for Peter McLean and other authors in his position though - being told to make your book that much shorter on a deadline must be terribly stressful and I think it's on the publishers to communicate what they want earlier and more clearly to authors and agents. I think that fantasy authors should take pacing and efficient prose into account way more often. Most books just don't need to be that long, and shouldn't be so dryly written even if the world is rich and the magic is cool. I feel like I'm still tolerating prose in most fantasy books instead of enjoying it, and I would love it if more authors challenged themselves to go beyond purely serviceable prose more often, to overexplain less, and more. It's at least equally important to plot out books and structure chapters with an eye toward efficient pacing that supports the story they're telling, which I feel is missing from too many fantasy books. As long as authors are allowed to publish multiple books in their series, I think it's fine if they work on structuring their series in such a way that each book is satisfying and under a certain word count. I think this applies both to epic fantasy and to ALL fantasy, including adult romantasy and YA fantasy, most of which are much too long for the stories they tell. I dislike most romantasy and am grateful that publishing has defined romantasy separately from the rest of fantasy, but I am frustrated that romantasy is clogging up social media and book publicity in general especially in the adult space.
You're welcome! Thank you for your comment. From my perspective, there were times when epic fantasy books were more "popular". Now, you're right on some things. Epic fantasy as a genre, not counting Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Kingkiller Chronicle, and Sanderson's books is very rarely known to the general audience. Even Sanderson. I don't think many people in my city or country know who he is. But to compare epic fantasy publications from 2000-2020 to now, I think Covid, Romantasy, and Cozy fantasy have totally changed the landscape of SFF. I agree with you, though, that authors need to prove themselves in traditional publishing before publishing a 300k-350k words tome. Especially because there are plenty examples of bloated epic fantasy novels. And it is very hard to entice readers now into trying epic fantasy by an unknown author with a debut of that word count. But I still think 100-130k for epic fantasy is most often not satisfying enough. Like the case of Peter McLean and other authors I mentioned. What if the story DO require about 50k words for it to become one satisfying book? Being told to compress to 100k words is brutal and restrictive. So hopefully things won't be this intense for trad pub authors who DO love writing epic fantasy. :)
I am a person who mostly reads nonfiction and horror nowadays but my younger sister reads epic fantasy and has told me how it’s only romantasy that’s being published lately as you said. I hope we can go back to more variety someday. Also loved the Dune reference 😂
That's why I'm glad to be an Indie Author and I write epic fantasy :D No word count limits for me. I'll use as many words as it takes to tell the story the way it needs to be.
“If you want to read a book about spice, read DUNE.” 🤣 So true! Wow, I did not know fantasy authors were being so restricted by word count, and I’m going to guess this is a new thing. Thanks for sharing about that and for shouting out the video discussion Tori and I did! Happy epic fantasy reading, Petrik!
Thank you so much, Johanna! It is thanks to your and Tori's video I finally remember to talk about this. So thank you for that. But yeah, fantasy authors being restricted by word count feels off to me.
This was a very interesting video. I do want their to be space for a big epic fantasy books, but I do think there is at least one upside to the current state of the industry. Namely, I think a lot of fantasy authors have gotten used to writing massive books, and so they never ask if the book really ought to be shorter. Sometimes a story is better when it is less than 100,000 words. I read some new fantasy books, and they often feel quite bloated.
That is definitely something I can agree on. There are, undoubtedly, bloated epic fantasy books that can and should be trimmed down. Wheel of Time is one of the most popular examples of this, imo. And there are many other examples. But at the same time, I am rarely satisfied by a 100,000-word epic fantasy novel. Most of the time, I felt it needed more page or word count. At the end of the day, it depends on execution, though. :)
Yeah I’ve gotten into epic fantasy in the last year and I notice all the fantasy is mostly romance heavy now. I’m not into romance right now in my books so I don’t love that. Like you said it would be nice to have a balance. But I’m all for the cozy fantasy!
Exactly. I don't want other genres to disappear, too. I still like reading cozy fantasy after all! But yeah as I said, i want more balance. Not vanishing epic fantasy 😅
I just released a novella about hillbilly vampires, and someone asked me if there was spice in it 🙄 I know it's not epic fantasy, but the demand for smut is real
I’m just starting my journey of self publishing my books, all epic fantasy. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what genres will last, which will remain popular, which ones will see lulls. I think it’s a fantastic time for epic fantasy writers who want to self publish, but that could change. I think it’s best if authors don’t follow the trends and stick to what they love and know. There may be lulls that come and go, but I enjoy reading the epic fantasy that’s available to us now, and I hope I can provide an abundance of stories myself for the genre in the future. Good video, always an enjoyable watch 👍🏻
Thank you so much! As you said, I think it is a great time for epic fantasy writers to self-pub. Don't get me wrong. Competition is super fierce and a lot of research needs to be done. But I think it's better than being trad pub with minimal support now. Or any... :/
@@PetrikLeo 100% Best time but also the most competitive time. Going to be a tough journey for sure, trying to distinguish my writings enough so that they stand out. Consistency though is really important, as I assume you’ve seen with your channel and efforts. Putting in a lot of good consistent effort over 5-10 years yields better results by far than giving it your all in the short term and then giving up when quick results don’t show. Anyway, I could go on and on about these subjects! Thanks though for your comment and your relevant material you keep putting out 👍🏻
I think the one thing to keep in mind is that especially for smaller publishers, it isn't about maximising profits so much as it is about generating profits in the first place. Also in a time of audiobooks and digital books, the market for traditional books is shrinking, so having smaller books means also smaller losses , when those books don't find success. Interestingly enough, here in Germany it has basically been this way for a very long time. The original run of Wheel of Time in Germany was 37 books, the five GoT books had been split up into ten books originally, the Shannara books were split up in duologies or trilogys for the German market and so on. Same goes for Sanderson's Stormlight Chronicles and even Stand-alones fell victim to this; I just read Kay's Tigana, and even that had been split up into two parts by the German publisher. No I'm no author, and I don't have any expert insight into traditional publishing, but I'm wondering if new and upcoming authors of Epic Fantasy couldn't play that system and write their books accordingly. 130k words are still ~500 pages, so instead of a 1k pages tome, just publish two 500 pages-books instead. Still the same content, still epic fantasy, and if you write at a consistent pace, readers don't have to wait so long for a possible sequel. Personally, I would probably even prefer this, because with my tbr being as huge as it already is (and still growing), I already had to make that decision to read either one huge tome or to read several smaller books instead. It's one of the reasons Sanderson's Stormlight chronicles and Malazan are still waiting to be read by me, because I also want to read comparatively shorter books like Hannah Kaner's Fallen Gods series, or S.L. Huang's Water Outlaws, and as much as I love sprawled-out Epic fantasy, I also love other genres and don't want to constantly have to chose one over the other. So maybe it's just because I'm so used to it, but I kinda prefer the German way of splitting up things (ok they went completely nuts with WoT, I have to admit), because it allows me to jump between genres without having to feel like I left a book in the middle just to read something else before finishing it (and yeah, I'm aware that it's psychology playing a role here).
I think small publishers are dealing with this situation differently. As you said, it is about generating profits in the first place. I am shocked by the number of books the German edition of The Wheel of Time has. 37 books!? That actually makes the series more intimidating to me. For whatever reasons, I prefer having smaller number of books but bigger words in each than 37 books but smaller word count each. Just my opinion, though! :D
@@PetrikLeo Ironically, I learned about Wot through an ad for the first three books (German version), that said "the epic trilogy by Robert Jordan". What I got was the first book (Eye of the World), part 1 and 2 and the first half of the second (Great Hunt). So I didn't even know what I got myself into at the beginning. And I think they even split a few books up in 4 parts, which is complete brain-wrecking in hindsight. This said, those books came as small paperbacks, so the intimidation factor wasn't that high. Also, I grew up by reading German author of adventure novels Karl May, whose collection encompassed 75 books (all around 500 pages), and at the speed I was reading back then, I was pretty fine with it.
Yeah I feel this. Currently on a 5th polish trimming my novel down 10k words from 235k now and I’ve already started book 2. I feel like it may be more enticing for new authors to write more in their series. I’ve found it’s improved my first novel, while also pinning me ahead of this next year if I’m unable to grab an agent. The stories must be told! So indie will be the path for epic fantasy until trad pub feels differently lol. So far responses for my word count (226k) hasn’t been good. But it’s the expectation
Good luck with writing! Philip did an absolutely incredible job publishing his three books immediately in a single year. Something that is truly impossible to do if he went the trad pub route.
I find this pretty crazy, mainly because of my own reading habits, but I am not very likely to read any fantasy book under 500 pages. Oo well, at least indies are still doing it, excited to start the Echoes Saga soon.
Echoes Saga is great! The series did go on a bit too long, but I'm on the unpopular opinion. Many people love the final two books so much. My favorite book in the series is book 7! :)
Given how book reviewers/readers with platforms are speaking up against the unfair and greedy practices of traditional publishing industry, there is change to be made especially in the indie publishing industry. I appreciate how much indie is growing thanks to creators like you who take time to research and promote new books. Also, while there is no doubt that traditional publishing is mostly focused on cozy fantasy and romantasy, these genres are not the cause of the "downfall" of epic fantasy or because people want to read these books. I know that is not what you meant in your video but there is a constant conversation that makes fun of people who are currently reading those books that promotes prejudice and a certain stigma over romance, spice, and cozy fantasy. The publishing industry is to blame alone. It only cares about money and while it seems like readers of these favorited genres are getting all the attention, there are many issues with the quality of the books being published and due to the greediness of this industry, it also takes away opportunities for other great new authors who are hoping to write original romantic stories. They might be publishing more of those books but in truth they're recycling the same old stories that romance readers loved in the beginning. Imagine ASOIAF being published over and over again. Anyways I know this got a bit long & I appreciate you if you read all of this. Again, I know that is not what you meant on your video and you addressed the issue with lots of respect. I only wanted to add to the conversation and also bring awareness that traditional publishing is hurting all genres and readers and most importantly, any author who wants to write new and original stories. This is just my experience as someone who reads epic fantasy, sci-fi, and romance.
Well said! And yes, I do read your comment! I want to make it clear. I am happy romantasy is bringing in a lot of new readers. Cozy fantasy as well. I love cozy fantasy, too! As I said in the video, I just wish there was more of a balance in promotion and publication. There is more depth to this, but without proper marketing and advertisement, other genres won't thrive. Fourth Wing originally exploded because of words of mouth that was first spread out by the marketing team by giving the books to the correct targeted reviewers. The rest is history. :)
Over a decade ago I was writing my first drafts, each of them around 150k. Until I realized that while doing everything by myself, writing too long stories was not a good idea, otherwise I would take too long to publish anything. However, my latest project is around 75k words, but divided in 4 short stories following the same characters. I’m a huge fan of Robert E. Howard; his worldbuilding of Conan was amazing, through mostly short stories and novellas.
Petrik...I love your video. Thank you. As someone dissolutioned with fantasy atm...it makes sense to me to realise that a large part is the marketing of publishers. I love a huge epic, we don't see many pushed these days. You're reminding me how much I love the genre
Damn that shade at GRRM is the best I've seen since Christopher Ruocchio said something along the lines of: "You can afford to wait for the next book a lot longer than I can afford to not write it. See, us non-millionaire authors actually have to write." 😂
Though authors do still need reasonable financial security to actually write consistently. Significantly contributing to long time between books can also be having to take other jobs, be they writing advertisements or a non writing related job.
If that is really directed at GRRM, and not a warped quote that people chose to direct that way, then it reflects very poorly on Christopher Roucchio as I see. GRRM is 75. He's been writing since the 70s - sold his first story at the same age as Rouccchio, 22 - and has a good amount of books and TV scripts to his name. When he started in the 70s, despite a Hugo nomination, his writing alone wasn't bringing in money so from 24 to 27 he was a chess tournament director and from 27 to 30 a college instructor, all while still writing. Only in his early 30s he was able to become a full-time writer, established enough to live off of it, and that's older than Rouccchio (who's 28 if I'm not mistaken) is right now.
@@VinnieMF I doubt it was specifically at GRRM, but I’d say GRRM and Rothfuss are the two who epitomize it the most. Those two have fucked over an entire generation of young authors, as there are tons of readers now who simply will not buy book 1 of a series until it’s done, as they refuse to be burned again. Larry Correia wrote an essay about it that’s a good read. Because of this phenomenon, a lot of book 2s and book 3s will simply never get written, because most authors can’t afford to write an entire series before books start selling.
Great video mate and totally agree. So glad that Self-publishing is booming but it’s also sad to see how fantasy is being hit in traditional publishing. But epic will come back! Ed
I feel like the publishers should charge a bit more for chunkier books to make up for the costs. However, they may assume that if a random book reader goes into a store or Amazon they may buy the cheaper book which would be shorter and not sell as many as the longer books that cost more. I disagree with this and believe fans of the genre will buy expensive longer books if that's what they want. But I think publishers are short sited. I think many of the publishers that make decisions on new authors are most likely folks that have been there a long time and are much older. If some folks were say maybe only in their 30's and in control of these important decisions, things may be a bit different. What do you think? And again, I think many people would buy the thicker book is they know what their looking for for another $5-$7 or so.
I'm not sure about that. I don't think there are any clear infos on the age of the people in control and whether there are any correlation between the book publication. It can also be argued if there are relations, older people in charge would want classic epic fantasy they grew up with more. But I don't know. There are many unknown variables to this. But for prices, yeah I would actually buy bigger books at a higher price than a shorter book with a high price. Murderbot or books published Tordotcom are good examples of books I try not to buy unless they're discounted.
As a diverse reader, even I have to say I agree and I’m glad you’re voicing your opinion and concern over this. I’ve read many a ‘romantasy’ book but it’s become such an over-saturated genre and now it’s near impossible to find something fresh in it. I do miss chunky, long-winded epic fantasy books and I hope this current era will eventually come to pass and we’ll be able to find some balance again. Also, loved your comment about spice! Laughed out loud so hard. ❤ There’s a series The Magister Trilogy by C.S. Friedman (published in 2007 if I’m not mistaken) that reminded me of the fact you can write a great epic fantasy book and have spice in the story without said spice being redundant and repetitive. At least that was my experience with the trilogy when I read it many years ago. It was excellent and I wouldn’t even categorize it as ‘romantasy’, it was a high fantasy story that had some spice. I think there’s potential for you to enjoy it, too. 😊 The first book is called Feast of Souls and yes, the original cover was that atrocious. 😂
Thank you for the kind words! I needed to voice my thoughts and concerns. I'm glad people agreed with me on this. I don't mind having romantasy or cozy fantasy in the genre. I encourage them actually. But not for the sake of sacrificing the release of epic fantasy. So hopefully epic fantasy will be back in full swing soon in traditional publishing! I'm glad you loved my comment about Dune hahaha. It just came to my head when I was talking. :D
I've been saying it for a while, but this is why indie is winning! Very disheartening to read that update from Peter McLean, I had no idea things were so 'dire', if you will. That said, I do like that there are so many more vibes, spices, and flavours to try out under the fantasy umbrella now; there's something out there for everyone! Great video, Petrik, thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
Thank you so much! Yeah, I love that we have the option to read self-published fantasy books. They don't seem as burdened by word count. Even though I know big books means more expensive publication and price still. But yeah, there's something out there for everyone. :)
its probably moving in the same direction as the romance market, where you basically have to become a success in self publishing and then the publishers will swoop in afterwards.
Just started the video so forgive me if you mention it later but I kinda feel like a decent amount of notable recent epic fantasy have been web novels (Lord of Mysteries, Wandering Inn, and Practical Guide to Evil come to mind) but obviously web novels are still a very hard sell to most readers so it’s really unfortunate that we’ve sorta gone in this direction PS: while I’m on break from Lord of Mysteries at the moment, I know you said it’s on your TBR so I wanna say that you’ll absolutely love it if you don’t mind a pretty poor translation!
I definitely will read Lord of the Mysteries! I'll enter it with patience on the translation. 😄 You're right, though. Web novels are hard sell. It's only recently I started reading it, too.
I've been noticing this problem for a few years now where I live in Europe, with some publishers abandoning fantasy series (leaving them incomplete) to release these other "fantasies" instead. Not only that, but they are refusing to reprint books they have already translated and are popular. And I would like to suggest you watch a video made by a channel called Chieko Kurokumo since she also got right to the root of the problem.
The Dune spice joke made me laugh out loud 😅 I definitely agree with you on all points here. It’s a shame to see the books we love taking a backseat to what’s popular right now, but at least it gives us time to read the hundreds of backlog epic fantasy books on our TBRs!
Thank you so much, Antonia! That's my thought as well. At the end of the day, it's sad, but also not a big deal after thinking I still have almost 1000 books to read... xD
I wouldn't mind saying that I write epic fantasy. My Victorian-era novel, Adjutant, is coming out on May 15th. It is a 680-page epic fantasy with multiple POVs, battles, political intrigue, seven distinct magic systems, and history. It's a book, one of a trilogy, and I'm not sure if anyone would be interested.
Even in Indie pubs, there's a pressure to stay under a certain word or page count due to printing costs. My part 1 debut epic fantast was a little over 250k words, and i was strongly advised to cut it into 3 books. So a planned trilogy and novella is now looking like 9 books. Then to learn (quite recently) that most indie fantasy authors try to keep each book between 50k-60k words. I experimented with a stand-alone romantasy at 265k words, and the cost to print and distribute is ridiculous. To make just $1 for every physical copy, the retail price needs to be over $35. A tip i got from other authors was to shrink the font size so it cuts down on the page count and cost. BUT so many readers have complained about tiny print. It kind of feels like being backed against a cliff by a polar bear. And while we'd think "at least there's not a limit to ebooks, because there's no printing cost", certain distributors will force a higher retail price. It's insane! If i didn't know any better, i'd say it's trying to push out owning physical books and push out indie authors entirely. Makes me sad because i love epic fantasy -- diving into new worlds, new perspectives, new possibilities.
This just goes to show the business is brutal on both trad pub and self-pub authors. I think at the rate the competition is increasing, it's becoming more ruthless, too. Though... the same can be said for many other businesses in the world. That retail price at $35 earned $1 is insane, though. I don't think I've heard of that before!
I wonder if the future is self published. I know nothing about publishing but by design if a person or people have any sort of control over your story it seems like it can go bad. I remember Erikson being interviewed on A.P.s channel and he made a comment along the lines of he couldnt make X story longer due to publishing page limits. If you want to write a 6k page book why can't that be allowed in todays publishing? I dont want authors to play by these rules anymore. IMO it just leads to control. Nobody should tell what an author can or cannot write but the author themselves. Sure editors are needed but not the level of control publishers have now.
Self-publishing is here to stay and thrive. I'm not sure it will be dominant but it will stay strong as a competitor, imo. Trad pub has so many restrictive rules, as we know.
Great video Leo! And your input is spot on in many aspects! Remember, BIG organizations are slow & more inflexible to change than agile Indie authorpreneurs, and yet big organizations (public ones) are also at the mercy (via CEOs) to shareholders, and face immesurable pressure there. That is one of the reason there are so few big trad houses left with consolidations Big trad are big organizations. NOTHING can take precedence over the bottom line. The beauty is, there are plenty of big chonkie, epic Indie fantasy books coming out every day! Enjoy what is on your bookshelf, as you note! You will indeed find plenty to enjoy over the next decade! Happy reading!
Totally agree with you about most of the concerns that you have, but like you, my backlog and TBR are so huge that I will be OK for years. Also that does not include re-reads which I also love to do. We will be fine. The Wheel of Time turns. Be well, stay safe
Interesting video, Petrik! I think this is a sad trend in fantasy books. And unfortunately, I see this trend in other genres too- soft sci-fi, cozy mystery, and chick-lit in contemporary fiction and literature. These "softer" books were there before- but there are WAY more now! I've tried these types of books- they're usually bad- on all fronts: plot, pacing, writing style. I don't understand the cult following for some of these authors. And the romantasy upsurge is disturbing! What does it say about the mindset of the public at large that these shorter, fluffier, cozier, spicier books are so popular?! Where's the quality...?
its because they are highy appealing for the younger crowd. Especially with booktok where a great majority of viewers are at middle school/ high school age. These sorts of books are appealing because they are easy to digest, or are extremely "spicy" which also plays into the younger demographics that like tiktok content
Thank you so much, Tiffany! Yeah, this trend apply to both fantasy and sci-fi, and I assume other genres as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some of them were great. But they're just not for me. Romantasy in particular feels like reading porn with a plot. I'm actually shocked there's a LOT of demand for it. :D
Echoing what you mentioned about your backlog... I think not having a lot of new epic fantasy from traditional publishing is a good thing, for us as consumers. (While it might be terrible for new, upcoming authors) I think we have enough to catch up on from the last two-three decades.
Well... shit. I've been writing an epic fantasy series (technically portal fantasy, but it's essentially epic fantasy with a few contemporary elements) for the last 2 1/2 years and I'm still trying to find a literary agent for the first book (I'm writing the 8th one, at the moment. I've been keeping the word count for each around 100-115k, but some of them have cliffhanger endings, so it's essentially one story divided into 2 books.) If traditional publishers aren't looking, I'm probably going to have to self-publish.
Definitely keep going with that. If trad pub isn't looking your way, self-pub is always a viable option. Make sure to look into the market and do many research before publishing, though! :)
Every hobby I have is slowly dying one way or other I collect comic statues 1/4 and 1/3 scale and that market has gone down so much now I collect Master Grade Gundam,and bandai has nearly stopped producing new MG gundams it's all exclusives now and really hard to get here in India Comics I collect hardcovers but due to reduced demand many indie comics are moving to kickstarter Hot toys I would say is still pretty popular but not as much back in its heyday But self published fantasy is also hard to get here in india,i have been looking forever for sword of kaigen paperback
Self-published physical books are notoriously difficult to get where I live, too. The only reason I own a signed Sword of Kaigen paperback is because the author sent a copy to me. :')
@@PetrikLeo It's worse in France. Since 2009 and an enormous mistake of a publisher the rise of romance - in the begining paranormal romance and further fantasy romance - was enormmous. The new adult fantasy have important sales and mainstream spec fic decline. We pais a serie of butterfly effects linked with big editorial mistakes. In the english lmanguage publishing you had the good gamechangers in the good moments - Mark Gascoyne for example with Solaris and Angry Robot. He have published the good things for the new generations. I believe you will be the next gamechanger next.
It became clear to me that this was the case when in the entire trad pub industry there was exactly ONE adult epic fantsy debut last year. One! Godkiller by Hannah Kaner. All the other epic fantasy debuts published last year were either debuted as self-pub first and then republished, published by authors who debuted in other genres and made a name for themselve there, or published by non-debut authors. It's sad.
Trad publishing has always been like this. Even when I was querying my YA fantasy at a 120k the agents that requested suggested I shave off 20k. If I'd done that the book would loose some of its world building. The chapters were precise and I do know for a fact that the story wasn't lagging as multiple eyes were on it and comwmtwd how cinematic it was. I eventually pulled the book because I wasn't going to sacrifice the eccence of the story. Publishing still refuses to acknowledge that New Adult is a genre. They just shove those books into YA category to bridegroom the gap. Javent touched a trad pub book in years. They arw too formulaic. Sticking to self published books is the wisest choice I ever made.
Yikes. Shaving off 20k words out of a 120k words book is a lot of cut. Very likely the book will lose something important. Glad you found your way in self-publishing!
Good video. Always good to hear your personal views. Seems like this is part of the greater ticktockification trend of popular media.... shorter, faster, the opposite of what an epic fantasy is. Maybe this is a good thing... pushing more writers to self-publish what traditional publishers dont want to.
Thank you! TikTok definitely affects the publishing industry, imo. It sparked more readership, which is GOOD, but at the same time, it seems to decrease people's attention span even more. I am thankful I have the option to read self-published fantasy books, though. They don't seem to be affected by this change. :)
@@PetrikLeo Wattpad has influenced publishing industry too around 2015. In Francer few new adult spec fic publiishing houses have published Wattpad female authors with big community to make a buzz. And they have reach à big level of sale. It disrupted market. I dont't know if you had the same thin in US.
I usually never read fantasy books below 400 pages in length because they don't have the time to truly provide an immersive and emotional experience. Building a vibrant world and making me care about the characters takes time and pages, urban fantasy being the exception. In fact, I've recently shifted to almost entirely reading fanfics and story-focused and original visual novels because they don't let outside restrictions get in the way of the stories they're trying to tell. Restrictions on authors directly hampers the quality of their work. Authors changing their works should be done on the basis of constructive criticism provided by beta readers and editors and not industrial demand, IMHO. Right now I mostly read good indie books and VNs because they have a palpable sense of life and passion in them, and aren't afraid to break the moulds set by the publishers. It's genuinely sad that publishers are so determined to trade creative freedom for extra profit.
Well said. This is why I like to balance my reading with self-published books and sometimes even webnovels. Don't get me wrong. I still have a LOT of trad pub books published in the past I want to read. But for new release, it seems like indie fantasy books tend to earn my interest more.
I think that the size of Fantasy books in recent years has gotten out of hand. I am older, so I remember when a Fantasy trilogy would be epic and everything we loved but maybe came in at 200K for the whole trilogy. Earlier works are even smaller. There is really nothing wrong with that. There is so much bloat out there - just think of WoT - that could be streamlined so much and would cause so many more people to read it. I miss the days of standalones and slim books. A lot of us don't have the extra time to spend on these massive series. We end up having to decide on one long series of massive tombs - like WoT - or a collection of smaller trilogies with a bunch of standalones and maybe a couple duologies or a quartet. For me, the answer in that question is clear as crystal. As an aside, there is self publishing and kickstarters. I know is sounds like a slap in the face, but many authors - great authors - in Fantasy and all other genres (as well as non genre and non fiction) have had to go this route. The end result will be that they can write the larger books if they want and if the audience is there for it that's wonderful. We are in a new age of publishing - and in truth this publishing that is ending is not that old (only a couple generations) so really we have nothing to complain about. Thanks for letting me rant, Andrew
I don't feel that much bloat in epic fantasy books tbh. Obviously, there are books with that syndrome, again like WoT. That series can be 7 books long and it would make the series even better. But for me, I just don't get much satisfaction from small books. Again, not a blanket statement. They can offer great reading experience, but VERY rarely they turn into something memorable for me. Well, we all have our preferences when it comes to reading. But at the end of the day, regardless of word count, I think everything as always depends on the execution. There are disappointing small books and bloated fantasy books.
I like reading a wide variety of genres (which includes both epic fantasy and romantasy). The publishers jump on these trends, and oftentimes, it results in rushed/mediocre books. So not only are we likely to miss out on great epic fantasies, but the Romantasies that get published are likely to be worse than the popular ones out now. Just like what happened years ago with The Hunger Games and YA/dystopian books that followed.
I was feeling this without being able to place a word on it!! I felt like every other month a new series was popping up that I was getting hooked but when I check out new books I’m kinda meh … I love epic fantasy and sci/fi and the romanstcy just isn’t what I’m looking for - awesome opinion video
Thank you very much! Haha I was just rambling my thoughts tbh. It's something I've been thinking for a while. Feels so rare to encounter a new epic fantasy novel from a new author now.
There are a couple of things i’ll blame: 1. Paper costs. Boomed during covid, now agents and editors want fantasy books shorter than like 100k. Not all, but definitely some. How would Epic Fantasy manage to thrive in that same environment? 2. Rothfuss and George. I listened to a podcast a few years ago and an established author straight up said his publisher didn’t want to risk an epic fantasy series because of another “unnamed” very popular fantasy series that wasn’t writing books anymore so the publisher was just stuck.
I agree with these two he did not really get into the reason why publishers want shorter word counts. It all has to do with the bottom line and we as readers expect a certain paper quality especially if it is a hardcover. The other one is also true sometimes I am considering whether or not I want to pick up a new series due to being unsure if it will be finished. In the case of GRRM he keeps his publisher happy with all the other books he had published. But that is also the reason for me not to buy them. Since by buying those books you are saying it is okay that you are writing other stuff and not Winds we will keep supporting you anyway.
Paper cost booming in price is definitely a big influence on this. Many fine press companies have mentioned the insane increase in paper and printing price. I don't know how much George and Rothfuss unfinished series influenced people's buying decision now, though! But that has certainly played a part a lot of times in the past!
@@PetrikLeo I think the damage is done to a lot of people who won't read new series anymore as they release because they fear it stalling. I know several of those. Authors with proven consistent output might still be considered.
130k sounds nice. The Runelords is very epic and generally the shorter books. A novel by certain standards only needs to be 40k. But I say this as someone who reads a lot of that 1970s and before fantasy
I look forward to reading Runelords. Tbh, many fantasy books I tried with fewer than 100k words does not click with me too much. They're good but also not memorable or satisfying enough because things ended too quickly or many aspects felt underdeveloped.
My two cents on this topic is that I still have much established epic fantasy to read so I do not personally desire for 10 new titles to be released every month. There would be no point when I am currently still exploring the known greats I have no time to explore the new voices right now.
@@PetrikLeo The ideal is still for a process to be in place for the standout masterpieces from new authors to still be published and appreciated by publishers.
There is another problem. The influence of pop culture. Cinema and Video game industry ghave a real impact on publishing. In the end of 2000 there was the age of "hoody" fantasy, stories about assassins. The publishers have surfed on the success of Assassin's Creed. Recently there are few novels about multiverse because Marvel Cinematic Universe. But there is no big movie on epic fantasy. And no video hit on epic fantasy without dark.elements. The mediatic environnement doesn't fit for the publishers.
That's a good food for thoughts. I didn't think about Assassin's Creed immense popularity influencing books as well, but I think you're right. There were so many hoody characters in front of fantasy books for a while!
I can't really think of any mainstream authors I am currently reading outside of Sanderson. Right now, I read mainly indie, and I do in the progression fantasy genre.
@@PetrikLeo if you got any req that you can offer. I am a big magic systems guy. I am not a big fan of grimdark or overly political narratives. I have read most of the big names.
Cozy fantasy and romantasy are popular right now because there’s a wider need for them in the culture at the moment. The world is in really bad shape right now and a lot of people are struggling financially and socially. So it’s not a wonder that a cozy low stakes feel good fantasy to escape like Legends and Lattes would appeal to a lot of people. And modern dating has become all but impossible for both men and women, so it’s little wonder that people want to vicariously feel some romance in their lives via literature. But these are just symptoms of the times we live. Eventually they will pass and people will want to go on epic adventures again.
Yeah, that's true. I have no doubt epic fantasy will surge again! I remember when Legends and Lattes hit the market at the right moment. Definitely rare to have something like that happening. :)
Just about the time I thought Petrick never ages (his hair/scruff always look the exact same length in every video), he goes and gets a haircut :D Just teasing. Looks good. I'm torn. I love epic fantasy, but I also get enjoying shorter works as well. The Rage of Dragons was 535 pages and that felt about perfect to me. You can only read so many 800-900 page books. And I know some people who won't read anything over 300 pages.
Hahaha! If only I never age. I hate aging hahaha. For me, I love both epic fantasy and shorter works. The issue I have with this is because trad pub seems like they're going to cut down epic chonky books completely for a while. :')
Self-publishing writer here who writes mainly Romantasy with heavy world and character building. I think the publishing trends will always be wild, but if people want to write bigger books they should look into self-publishing if the trad route isn't going the way they want. Many people love big books but big house publishers are always going to be worried about a profit, look at the publisher or Iron Flame (Fourth Wing book 2) and the drama surrounding the release of the book, they were looking for a quick buck and it was a massive failure. Trends will always come and go but Fantasy will always be around. To writers, if you read this, write the book you want to read and your readers will find you. I want to get into more indie published fantasy, but I don't know where to start and I know I will fall down a rabbit hole.
Hear hear. Write the book you want to read, and your readers will find you sooner or later sounds about right. Self-publishing, more than ever, is a good option now. It won't be easy, that's for sure. But you don't have to rely on traditional publishing to become a published author now. I know many self-pub fantasy authors, if we're speaking about sales, who makes much more than tons of trad pub fantasy authors.
You make an excellent point that things are cyclical. Trad publishers will get back on board at some point. Self-publishing is such a viable option now, as you have helped contribute to, that I think we will have plenty to read. Also, as a business person, I have to think that new publishing companies may emerge that are outside of all the consolidated huge firms. Now go read Dungeon Crawler Carl! It's so good on audible. You'll also love He Who Fights With Monsters. You can blame your TBR on me :)
Have you tried the Last king if Osten Ard series by Tad Williams. ( It takes place 30 years after the first series) Im loving it. Its actually even better than the first imo and more mature writing. Can't wait for your thoughts and review.
It makes sense that when people pay for "books" and not "words" that authors (both indy and trad) will be encouraged to publish more short books than fewer long books since the ROI per time is going to be a lot better for 5 60K books than 1 300K book. I do wonder if some of the awards need to carve out an award for best epic book (say 200K+?) the same way novella and novellete (and short story) are separate awards. It is a little hard to do that since "novel" is the main even and some epics would like to win that, but it would be good to have a way to recognize epics. Maybe it could be there while novel maintains any 40+K so people could be dual eligible the same way (in theory at least) animated or documentary or international movies are all still eligible for best movie oscar.
There USED to be that kind of award. It was called The David Gemmell award. The nominees are epic fantasy or chonky books. Loved that award. Such a shame it has been discontinued. :/
I agree with @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy on this one…it’ll bounce back and if not a new publisher or a new way of allowing epic fantasy to come back will allow this to happen. But yeah, self pub works as well…see Ryan Cahill’s huge series for example.
For what it's worth, that 100k word limit seems, to me, to be anecdotal at best, and something much more frequent in US publishing at worst. My books are space opera, and sci-fi gets a lot less wordage than epic fantasy does. All of my books with Gollancz have been published at 150k+, with Book 3 shaping up to be at least 200k. For my next series, an epic science-fantasy we're aiming at 150-170k. Possibly more. I have heard of authors being asked to stay within the 130k-150k range, but again, that's only from US-based publishers. I know ONE UK publisher who has told an author to stay at 100k for his standalone, but he's writing crime thriller fantasy, not epic fantasy. Don't get me wrong: there is a trend towards making books shorter, and the days of GRRM-sized tomes is almost certainly at its end for everyone but the GRRMs of publishing. But it perhaps it isn't so bleak for those of who do write a little on the longer side. :)
I wouldn't say it's anecdotal. I have received tons of messages about it from authors. However, you may be on to something saying it's from US publishers. Thinking about it, most of it really do come from US publishers. As I said, though. It's not a blanket statement. Right now I can't think of any epic fantasy (as in really epic) debut published this year. Last year we have Godkiller which cloaked in at 100k words. 😅 I don't mind 130k-200kish words though.
I lament this reality, but do think things are cyclical, so it'll be back! But I'm like you: my TBR mountain has lots of epic fantasy to dig into until publishing swings back around!
Really great video. I’m fine with changes in the industry because I love classic fantasy and really do not care for modern fantasy. I love a 300 page book. Give me more Feist, Salvatore, Sullivan and of course many more Alex Verus and Dresden. Love your thoughts and ideas.
Thank you so much! I still need to read Alex Verus, but I have read Dresden. But remember, Sullivan's books and even Dresden Files has gotten much bigger than 300 pages now. :)
This is sad news Petrik ! I love big books so much !!! :( Ironically,im reading New Spring by Robert Jordan,started as a god tier fantasy book than went lower to top tier ... great read though,I like it !
It is. But remember. We still have MANY big books to read. Just a bit unfortunate we won't see many exciting big fantasy books being published by new authors for now. :)
I blame also Covid. Because during crisis the publishers have contracted debt. Have made loan. Today they must repay the bank. And they must publish hyper bankable books. Romance are enormous niche they bring back much money. The rentability imperative are the main cause to choose romantasy.
I feel like Western trad pubs are moving towards something akin to fantasy/SF webnovel pubs in Asia. Debut and journeyman authors are all shifted onto pay-as-you-go digital platforms where your work is serialized by chapter and dependent on reader surveys to stay running. Print editions are a prestige part of the business reserved only for the best-of-the-best (biggest moneymaker) writers.
Ah, yeah. It will be interesting if we ever see Western trad-pub following a similar model. I know popular webtoons are getting physical books now. And they're BEAUTIFUL. Like Solo Leveling and Omniscient Reader!
Thank you so much! I don't know. I favor self-pub fantasy here, but this is to show that self-published IS an option. Not everything has to be traditionally published to be read. There are many amazing indie books as we know. :)
I wouldn’t call trends from the past couple years the death of epic fantasy. And it’s always been the case that it’s hard to get longer books published as a debut or when a writer isn’t as successful - authors publishing truly epic length books as a debut has always been rare. It’s always been something that the writer has to fight for to an extent. However, it is true that those constraints are getting harder due to strained supply chains raising the costs of producing physical books (combined with the decline of print books and bookstores generally). So a thing that was already hard is getting harder, but I again wouldn’t call that the death of the genre. What seems inevitable, then, is a focus even more on ebooks and audiobooks due to the lessened overhead (at which point length becomes a pro rather than a con). But does that mean the death of trad publishing? I think it’s highly unlikely. Keep in mind that basically every bestselling indie fantasy author jumps on trad publishing the moment they get the chance (including yet another example in this video), implying that most authors themselves still see the benefit of trad publishing when it’s offered to them.
I think, based on my observation and experience, epic fantasy debut used to be published much more often when Game of Thrones was at the height of its popularity. I certainly witnessed epic fantasy debut being published frequently during those times. STILL not as many as romantasy now, but it was much more balanced. Not the death of epic fantasy per se, but it's more to imply that epic fantasy in trad pub is declining. Which is accurate. I've heard from people working on traditional publishing that submissions for epic fantasy books are much fewer now. As for the case of indie fantasy jumping on trad pub, it needs to be mentioned that successful indie fantasy now tend to only sign the rights for the physical books. Their ebooks will remain self-pub and own by them. For example, Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman. The amount of sales and money the series earned through Kindle Unlimited, many trad pub authors will dream to have the success Dungeon Crawler Carl has. The ebooks for the series alone most likely earn him around $100k per month. I'm not projecting numbers. Michael J. Sullivan and plenty of indie authors have talked about their incredible sales, and usually when self-pub authors on this level sign with trad pub, trad pub is the one that benefits. In reality, these successful (not all indie authors are this successful of course) self-pub authors don't need trad pub anymore. They need them only because they want to see their physical books on bookshelves. Just like what Carissa Broadbent di with her super popular and successful self-pub romantasy series.
As a newer author myself, longer books are harder to sell without a proven track record to fall back on. Readers are hesitant to invest in a 600 page book from a new author, but 300ish pages is much more palatable. As a reader, this rule applies to me too. When I find a author I love, length is no longer an issue. Dresden Files is a case in point for me. I'd read them, no matter what the length.
That's fair! And I understand that. It just feels odd to me when this is done purposefully by removing big fragments of the complete story the author wants to tell.
This makes me think of The Five Warrior Angels books. Author said they made him publish 3 books instead of 5. Even when publishers agree to run the book, they're always trying to appeal to the masses.
Yup. That's another series that gets decreased because of sales. Everything about the series led to the number 5. Such a shame Brian couldn't make it happen. It is still an incredible trilogy, though, despite it!
since i mainly read used and/or older books i can never really run out of epic fantasy :) but if publishers currently aren't offfering contracts for epic fantasy series to promising authors, it kinda sucks for authors that would like to create epic fantasy novels... having to freelance and self publish epic series sounds very risky. i wonder how much negative impact kingkiller and soiaf had by being hyped as fuck and then left derelict by the authors without that satisfying conclusion an epic needs... how many unsatisfied readers have already stated they wouldn't start another possibly great series until the last book is out to protect themselves from massive disappointment and waste of time and money? (sanderson is totally underrated for saving wheel of time imo...). so if publishers believe or actually experience that a series makes money AFTER being finished, it sort of forces their hand to make the series and individual novels shorter, as short as they can and still call it a "novel"
Yeah! I don't think I'll ever run out of epic fantasy books to read. As I said, I still have tons of epic fantasy books published in the past to read. Not to mention my favorite fantasy books I want to reread as well! But you're not wrong. Even though it shouldn't be the case, the immense success of the popularity of GRRM and Rothfuss plus their unfinished series definitely stopped many readers from starting an unfinished series. It's sad because most authors DO finish writing their series. :/
I do feel that that epic fantasy written by and for women is gaining speed. I think it’s just “mantasy” that is being given less shelf space as patriarchal stories become less relevant to the zeitgeist. Romantasy is being given heavy spotlight, but I think this will even out to fantasy that is still romance heavy but more focused on logical world building and magic systems, but, you-know with more female centric stories.
Interesting points. I haven't seen many EPIC fantasy books written by women lately, though. It seems like all of them romantasy or marketed based on whether the main characters are straight or queer. But I get what you're saying. I don't mind fantasy books with romance. Love is a powerful force we all need, after all. I just wish there was more of a balance. :)
@@PetrikLeo Female writers like Kate Eliott or Michelle West have writtent epic fantasy. And other fantasy famale writer at Dawbooks for example. Today asian or african born women write epic fantasy too.
Comments from France 🙂 Same situation here. Traditionnal publishers are switching to romantasy and we see alt publishers filling the void and specialize into epic fantasy (ie. trad publishers loosing their original market). Cosy mystery is not yet famous over here.
Book trends might be a little bit like stocks: When something seems like it has taken a nosedive, that's the time to get in on it. It is tough right now, but epic fantasy will be back! Also, thank the fates that self-published fantasy is so viable now.
I do think it will start to swing back soon with Stormlight Archive coming back.
You’re paving the way with your series. Admittedly I haven’t read it(only because my TBR is stuffed with suneater and Malazan) but from the outside in I’m seeing your efforts.
@@Chance.Dillon Much appreciated!
Yeah, if self-published fantasy is not viable, I don't even know what the state of fantasy will look like in the near future. xD
Philip, I'm glad you said that! Granted, I may be partial: I'm working on the first story of a *massive* multi-volume epic fantasy based on Bronze Age Europe!
"if you want to read something with spice, read Dune" my dudei just cried laughing at this
I'm not wrong though, am I? 😅
Same, what a fantastic line 😆
Dude this was awesome
I don't know man, that sounds like a dry read.
Best line ever 🎉
I think the constraints on traditional published authors is one of the biggest reasons why indie has grown so much this past decade.
True. There's a silver lining then! :D
The silver lining is that no new epic fantasy means I have time to catch up on old epic fantasy
Hahahaha! Exactly my thoughts, too! 😂😂
My concern is about things NOT shifting back, at least not without a seismic hit series. Look at YA. When Harry Potter was a big hit, many books published in YA targeted both male and female readers, and there was a brief golden age where YA had a variety of stories for many demographics. Then Twilight and Hunger Games came along, became massive hits, and shifted the YA landscape to something almost exclusively romance. Reading in writers’ forums, I have repeatedly seen debut authors wanting to break into YA being discouraged by agents and other would-be authors from featuring teenage male protagonists, or plots that do not focus on romance. Twilight book 1 was published 2005. We are now nearly twenty years into YA being essentially romance-only (although it was a gradual transition, with series like Maze Runner in the interim). Viewed that way, I think it was inevitable that publishing would shift to try to catch these YA readers (and their money!) as they aged up to adulthood. Thus: romantasy.
To add a little more…I’m kind of annoyed with myself that I didn’t see it approaching, but it was there all along in YA. If YA fails to produce any books for teenage boys - you have to look back to about 2007/8 for books that feature male teen protagonists in YA- then those readers will move on. Of course, some guys like romance too, but also many will move to Shonen manga or video game RPGs (or indie pub now with series like Cradle) to get the kinds of themes they want from fantasy. If those readers have lapsed due to trad pub not catering to them, then they’re not going to be there to form a demographic for new debut epic fantasy that deals with similar themes. So, in terms of trad publishing at least, I think the root of this problem, of epic fantasy dying, needs to be solved at middle grade and YA reading levels. Readers need a new book like a Harry Potter that appeals to all demographics, so that publishers will end their twenty year habit of putting all their eggs in one basket. Of course, that’s quite the ask!
That's an interesting point. And you're not wrong. It's certainly quite the ask, though. And easier said than done! :D
The success of Harry Potter sparked readership in male and female audiences. But the same situation is not replicated with the success of YA Dystopian or YA urban fantasy. Generally speaking, I think most man do not like to read about romance in fantasy books. If we want romance-dominant stories, we would rather pick up romance books instead. We read epic fantasy not because it has romance. So who knows, maybe something widely acclaimed that will appeal to both men and women will appear again. Until then, we shall wait. :)
@@PetrikLeo Yeah, there’s certainly crossover where men enjoy romance and some women I know like the more battle-centric elements of epic fantasy, but in general I do think there is demographic difference in what appeals to us in stories. The trad publishing houses certainly market their books that way, and, I just don’t think there’s enough in the YA category right now to appeal to young male readers, which are the demographic required to build a varied and fully populated readership for adult epic fantasy further down the line. I see the observation trotted out that teenage boys don’t want to read, but of course they won’t if everything in a category is geared, by and large, to exclude them. It’s just frustrating to me as a teacher to see publishing, an industry that prides itself on progressiveness and diversity essentially erasing an entire group of readers. People always say the pendulum will swing back- they said it about YA, but it hasn’t for nearly 2 decades. My biggest concern is the idea that fantasy reading could become gender-locked, and we have precedent for that, unfortunately, in the same way that video games as a medium have traditionally mainly been targeted at males. Idealist that I am, I just want great entertainment media that all can enjoy, rather than publishers being so one-sided in how they market and sell their content. So to all those saying they appreciate this as a chance to get through their backlogs, well I hope they’ve got twenty years plus worth of new books to get through unless something changes drastically!
The pressure to keep the word-count down has always been a big deal in the traditional pub world, so I'm unsurprised that the pressure has risen along with production costs. When my agent was shopping The Severing Son with acquiring agents in NYC (2016-18), we were often advised to take it down to somewhere under 120K (from about 160K range). As an exercise, I did a draft at 120, which required stripping a lot of world-building, the prologue, and ALL of the scenes that pertained to events in books 2 and 3. My wife, in particular, hated that version of the book. It makes me glad that I walked away from trad pub.
I'm very glad that you're talking about this. I hope the conversation reaches the conference tables in NYC. Keep up the great work, and thanks for all you do for readers and writers!
Thank you for your insight, Vaughn! Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Bigger books doesn't always mean a better book. But what if it IS? Especially when the author still have visions and story to achieve. The word count pressure is crazy.
@@PetrikLeoASOIAF is a great example of this. Imagine removing so much detail that makes the world feel so real and grand, that adds so much depth to his characters? To be fair though this is pretty rare. Few authors actually need 800+ pages to tell the story they're trying to tell (Sanderson? Jordan, a bunch of new quasi YA pretending to be adult fantasy coming out right now etc etc). Even if there were no publishing constraints we should normalize fantasy being 400-500 pages.
Hey Petrik,
Thanks so much for making this video. I'm a high school English teacher and my wife is a college professor. We just finished our epic fantasy novel and have been going through the querying process. Our book is over 200k words and we're getting immediately rejected by every agent we query. The agents aren't even reading our sample pages and they certainly aren't requesting a full. The only person who's requested a full from us is Matt Bialer, Pat Rothfuss's agent, who asked for a rewrite and asked us to fix some things before resubmitting to him. We've recently done so, but we haven't heard back from him yet. The agents we've queried have mostly expressed interest in cozy fantasy, romantasy, urban fantasy, etc. etc. It's very disheartening. We've worked on this novel for 4-5 years and we're likely going to have to indie publish. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just wasn't expecting this to happen.
Indie is that way of the future. Listen to Michael J. Sullivan and his story.
Hey, you're welcome! Thanks for sharing your experience. Remember that self-publishing is certainly a viable option. You have to do some proper research before it, though. As for Matt Bialer, he's GREAT! It's awesome you got him to read your book. I talked about The Failures by Benjamin Liar in today's video. That's a book agented by him! :)
I’ve traditionally published two fantasy novels. Both times the publisher made me trim a series worth of ideas into a stand-alone. I’m self-publishing my next book
Good luck!! You can do it! :)
"If you want to read about spice, read Dune. Go to Arrakis." 😂 I was laughing out loud at this!
Hahaha glad you had fun watching it, at least! :D
I Lmao too
lol I thought it was funny, too haha
I may be an outlier here, but I almost never justify the $30 hardcover price for a 300 page book. But I will for the 600+
So any new releases with 100k word cap, well, I come back when there's a $1.99 ebook deal.
I don't think you're an outlier on this. Yes, we shouldn't judge quality immediately based on the page count. But with the unlimited number of books to read, I'm not willing to spend $30 for a standard small book or $15 for a novella/short novel ebook.
Yep. Or just wait for the library copy. The only books I buy full price are autobuy authors/series that I trust or books that I've already read.
Hadn´t thought about that, but now that I look at my shelves, the only hardcover series I own is "the Wheel of Time", and those are BIG books. Maybe my subconscious at work there....😁
Traditional publishing might be forsaking epic and dark fantasy, but that doesn't mean novelists are. There are a lot of indie authors out there, like myself, trying bring back long-term epic stories. We need to head in the direction of indie-publishing so that passionate, unrestrained stories can be made to the public. The reading community is no longer held at the whim of mainstream publishers, so we need to take advantage of that.
Novelist and self-published fantasy authors are certainly staying with epic fantasy. And I'm happy for that. That's why I still read self-published fantasy books! :)
This is one of the main reasons why self-publishing is so appealing. Having to limit yourself to 100K words is abysmal. Even 130K feels short to me. I watched a recent Elliot Brooks video on "longer" novels and she was listing things like 'Shadow of the Gods'. And I was like, really!? SotG is considered CHONKY! Seems the attention span of our world today has just fallen for many reasons (thanks TikTok), but like you said, there are plenty of people who are hungry for longer, more epic reads. Hopefully, thanks to indie authors, we will see a return of the epics, or maybe at least less constraints on length.
It's all about being quick and fun enough now. 😅 Shadow of the Gods is average sized, imo. I consider anything smaller than 500 pages or 200k words not a chonky novel.
Maybe its not about 'attention span' but about amateur authors learning to edit their books and focus on quality, not quantity.
So much of fantasy is bloated by extraneous and indulgent nonsense that meanders to nowhere because these 'writers' don't know how to plot their books or hit an emotional beat without overexplaining. That's not even getting into all the info dumps and random characters who serve no purpose.
Fantasy authors need to grow up and learn to be professional writers. This word limit is good first step.
@@hunterghobadi1269 I get what you're saying. Words need to be meaningful, and I'm not advocating for long novels just for the sake of being long. However, any time you put strict limits on people, in my experience, that's generally not a good thing. Creativity should not have borders. I get that there needs to be SOME line in order to keep people accountable and, as you said, focusing on plot and avoiding the extraneous. I just think that 100K is a bit nonsensical for adult fiction.
@@astevenswrites Actually, limitations DO incentivize creativity, it forces the writer to come up with a cohesive vision within a set boundary rather than be let loose to self-destruct due to an over-encumbered ego.
Almost every 'creative' talks about their publishers giving them "enough rope to hang themselves" when not being provided with guidelines. If the current situation in epic fantasy was such that creatives had great ideas stifled due to greedy executives looking to cash in on social media trends then maybe your "attention span" argument would hold merit.
But that is NOT what is happening. 100,000 words is not brief, it cannot fit in a twitter post or Instagram card. It is an extensive amount of pages only seen as limiting by those who are too stubborn to edit down their manuscripts.
What HAS been happening in the Epic Fantasy world is long overdue. It was not greedy executives hurting professional writers, it was lazy and indulgent authors who would ramble on for 400,000 words with nothing to say. Epic Fantasy has burnt out all its good will, churning out unfinished series, unedited books, copious world-building, and almost no artistic breakthroughs.
The heroes of this genre like Martin are nothing but crooks, and finally the publishers have said enough is enough. Maybe now epic fantasy can finally grow and evolve after years of bloat and arrogance.
@@hunterghobadi1269 Fair enough. I think my "attention span" argument was a bit more of a generalized assessment than an accurate remark about what is happening in the publishing industry. I don't have firsthand knowledge, so I can't say for sure. But I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. We have seen it abused, though I don't think that's the majority. I just hope that we can breathe life into epic fantasy, in whatever form it takes in 2024 and beyond, and have it be a positive subgenre of fantasy that people who love it can enjoy.
The quote from the author about being dropped for being for being profitable, but not profitable enough reminds me of Wizards of the Coast ending the long running, profitable, D&D tie-in novel lines because they werent profitable enough. Shortsighted and stupid, but these are the decisions you get from people who get degrees in how to use Excel.
It's a problem across all industries. Too much wealth concentrated in too few hands, and all those hands are people with no care for what they're doing beyond large numbers on Excell spread sheets.
Degrees in how to use Excel. Brutal. 😂😂😂 That said, I get what you're saying. I'm see this kind of situation happening more often lately in other medium and franchise as well.
Putting a 100k word cap on epic fantasy is sacrilege.
It totally is! :)
100% agree!
I am from Spain, we have many fantasy writers, i would say thousands. But somehow the anglo writers get more attention. There are much more writers than readers out there. I am sure there are very good novels who aren't popular because the writer doesn't live in an English speaking country. One example is Onmagier, a trilogy of epic fantasy from the Netherlands kinda popular in continental Europe translated to a few languages (including Spanish) but almost unknown in the English speaking world. The epic fantasy looks like it's dying because anglo publishers barely translate foreign books besides the Witcher from Poland which was an exception.
I speak Spanish (native), and learning French, so I read in French. And this happends with every community who isn't English-native🥲If it isn't in English, they are only popular in their countries. It's so such a shame, because we have soo many good authors!
Precious Stone Trilogy is one example of popular trilogy, back in 2010-2012, it's a German author, but it isn't Epic Fantasy, it is YA time-travel for kids.
"Cadáver exquisito" by Agustina Bazterrica (Dystopian-Argentina) it's popular too. All of them aren't fantasy. I don't know those books if they are good, I haven't read them, I only talk about how popular they are.
Good point. There are still definitely non-English Epic Fantasy works that we don't know because they haven't been translated. I haven't heard of Onmagier!
This is criminal. I would love to learn more, but I only read English
I’d love to see the success of 3 body problem normalize translating a series that does well in Spain (or anywhere) into English! Plus it would give bi-lingual people some very cool translating and editing jobs 😊
"I don't have anything against Romantasy, I just wish there was more balance in publishing different genres." Yes, thank you!
It also reeks of price gouging. I feel like it's less the covering of production costs and more the making of profits when even 300 page books suddenly cost double (or even more) than they used to.
One thing I also noticed (which might have to do with book tok and booktube) is that books are put out at an enormous rate. It might just be me, but I get the feeling that as an author, if you put out one book per year, you're already counting amongst the slow writers (?).
Anyway, nice video!
Thank you so much! Glad to hear you agreed with what I said. Not sure about one book per year being counted as slow, though. I think many readers appreciate consistency and transparency more than an author putting out work quickly like Sanderson hahaha! But you're not totally wrong. I know many indie fantasy writers publish about two or three books a year. It's incredible.
The hell of it is, I like romance. Many of my favorite stories of all time are actually romance or fantasy romance. Romance with actual healthy and meaningful communication and emotional connections between characters, mutual respect and mutual support in times of crisis and the maintenance of friendships and familial relationships outside the main romance. What's being marketed as romance these days is not the romance I want. It's all so shallow, lacking meaningful themes and conflicts and... you get the idea.
I totally get the idea! That's the kind of romantic relationship I like to read as well in my fantasy books. Relationship with understanding and effort instead of focusing on who gets to bang who and how detailed they are.
Wow this is kind of depressing, but I can't blame it on Trad Pub. Readers' tastes change and things go in and out of "fad." I'm sure we will be due for an epic fantasy resurgence soon. In the mean time, I'm happy I'm self published. I couldn't imagine writing a 100K sequel to Dragon Mage!
Totally true. 100,000 words sequel to Dragon Mage will most likely be underwhelming. Dragon Mage was incredible! Cannot wait to reread it using the leatherbound edition and then move to the sequel, Champion of the Fallen! :)
Lets see, just finished Empire of silence, almost done with Leviathin wakes, about to start Oathbring then Of Darkness and Light will be started right after that. I plan on reading Assassin's Apprentice soon, and i need to finish The Bone ship series and plan on Reading Lock Lamore soon.....I'm doing what i can to keep Epic SFF up.
You're doing a great job! Keep it up! :D
I'm working on my 1st book which is epic high fantasy/sci-fi mixed in. Currently a bit over 100K words, imo the word count being lower does not lessen the books quality. I am currently writing the final battle scene and will wrap up book 1 soon, I can see where making books 200Kish can make them too drawn out and ruin the pacing. On the flip side I love The Stormlight Archive, it all comes down to how well it is written, nothing to do with the length tbh.
Books are simply too long, and I would rather read a concise fantasy than a long fantasy if it means good pacing
100k words doesn't definitely mean a bad book immediately. Peter McLean is super good at writing books at 100-150k words long. But what I'm saying, what if the author is not even done with the book yet but already told to stop? I can't imagine Name of the Wind (260k words) to be told to stop at 100k words, for example.
Haircut looking sharp Petrik!
Great discussion topic. Those word count limits are criminal. A sprawling word count can be a problem, but it can also mean you get a lot of story in one book.
As you said, there is no shortage of epic fantasy demand, and no shortage of epic fantasy stories in self-publishing. At worst, I hope this shift brings more readers/authors to indie.
I think cheap ebook prices in indie force trad publishers to focus on the paperback market, which means they are more subject to production costs.
Thank you so much, my friend! Yeah, I don't mind trimming down and editing of course. That will always happen. We don't want a super bloated word count like The Wheel of Time. There might indeed be a correlation between cheap indie ebook to publishers' focus on physical books!
It's also about the readers, their level of training (I'm talking about education), their ability to use their remaining energy after completing all the necessary tasks at home and at work (many want something pleasant and that doesn't require a lot of brainpower)
Remaining energy is a good point. Sometimes when I'm super tired, I don't have the energy to stay awake reading epic fantasy books with heavy world-building. 😅
I know what you are saying! Short attention span; quick fix; easy to understand; superfluous and quick!
I think part of the problem is the way books are typically priced. Publishers think that, since they are going to charge $20 for your book no matter how big it is, it needs to be short so they can maximize profit. But epic fantasy fans who like ginormous bookstoppers would probably agree to pay more for those books rather than see them just stop making them! Just my 2 cents--great video.
Thank you so much! And no. I agree with you. Some of the short books I've seen are ridiculously priced. I'm talking about 100-200 pages books priced at $16 for their Kindle price. Miss me with that price.
@@PetrikLeo Definitely completely agree with you there!
Maybe this will mean that my favourite format, the mass market paperback, will make a comeback because of the cost factor. Interesting discussion so thank you.
Thank you! There's something special about mass market paperback, isn't it? As unsustainable as they are as a format...
I hope so, I prefer them always.
Unlikely. Most of the costs are fixed and mass markets still need a lot of paper while having much less margin. In fact the economic factors of production cost and currently eliminating the mass market segment because of the small margins.
I am actually writing an epic fantasy right now and you gave me a lot of things to think about! I also read epic fantasy. I love Brandon Sanderson, of course, and I'm not sure where Sarah J Mass fits, but I jumped on that bandwagon and am going through her series right now. I'm still trying to figure out if I like her writing style. However, they are a long epic series.
Good luck with your writing! Sarah J Maas fits into romantasy. Nothing wrong with it. It's good to have epic fantasy and romantasy coexisting together. The problem is when one is destroyed over the other. :)
It's so true. This is happening everywhere, not just in the publishing industry and it's just sad. Companies just want one thing: more money. They cut down on EVERYTHING, just to have a little more profit in their pockets. It's very unfortunate how things have gotten to this point. And i dont know how it's going to stop.
Also the thing about spice: It's so frustrating how people only care about "spice". There's more to a book than just spicy scenes! Character development, plot pacing, topics the book might touch on (eg The Rape of Nanking in The Poppy War). It's jist frustrating to see a lot of people caring about spicy scenes..
Also, great pun about Dune. I laughed out loud 😂
In the 80's it's for men fiction reader who search spice. Today it's female readers who read romances and similar stuffs.
The majority of trash novels are wrtitten by women and read by women. it's a short time phanomenon. In 5 years the trend would disappear.
@fabienlyraud8475 well I don't mind the trend, I just hate how when I recommend someone a book, their first question is "does it have spice?" And if I say no, they completely dismiss the book
@@TAFalling This really happens in real life?🤣I don't have readers friends, soo this sounds soo weird for me. I think the same, it's a trend, in 5 years when readers grow up more they gonna see that everything they read it's the SAME book (aka Watppad reader/Sarah J Mass readers) and they are gonna look for something else.
But in 5 years probably "spice" are gonna stay as "erotica" like always been this kind of book.
"Romantasy", too, it's always been there but it didn't have a name like nowdays.
Exactly! It's not in publishing industry. Gaming companies have been doing insane cutoff lately. Even cutting off concept artists with prestige and incredible talent and results.
I actually don't mind a book having spice, even if it's not what I want in an SFF book. But that's the thing. Asking this question toward every series is too much. At the rate this is going, they should just pick up actual erotica than searching for romantasy. 😅
Is it so bad to have shorter fantasies? Look at tv-shows since 2012-2013 8-12 episodes max and not 20-23 per season. They got a lot more exciting, tighter and better quality.
I think it could be the same with books. WoT is a killer of souls, malazan etc for people who cannot commit because of time restraint (families etc)
Old days trilogy was shorter and exciting.
I love Brandon but books are too long even if I like them.
Also I’m new to fantasy (2y) so I can’t tell that epic fantasy is dying, just finding out Abercrombie, sun eater, Brandon etc.
What’s your thought on shorter 130-200k books -like tv shows- instead making them tighter and better than a bloated book of 300+ words? Happy to hear your answer.
This is why I'm glad the indie markwt has boomed and is being taken more seriously. Trad can push their trends all they want, but we have so many genres and subgenres, and even subcategories within to reach these niches. I don't think, because of indie fantasy, that epic fantasy will ever die. Itsgetting easier for indies to reach bookstores and market places to the point that many readers don't realize they're buying indie. And that's not even getting into the covers.
All hail epic fantasy!
Epic fantasy will always reign for me. And as I repeatedly said, I'm so pleased self-published fantasy has come such a long way. And it keeps growing more rapidly. I know I have epic fantasy books to read, no shortage of them, in self-published and indie market!
I am now 47 years old. I've been reading Fantasy since I was 13, and growing up I was fortunate enough to read Tad Williams, Raymond Feist, Robert Jordan and David Eddings. Even early Terry Goodkind was really good. More recently Brandon Sanderson has earned his place among the greats for me. I truly was spoiled in the riches while growing up. Thus my love for the genre was formed.
The only reason I managed to pass along the "bug" of fantasy to my kids was because me and my wife introduced them to the old masters. Unfortunately, these days, we are reduced to an handful of gems a year (such as the recent "The will of the many"), and that's it. Not nearly enough for instilling the love of the genre to a teen starting out his literary journey without guidance (as I was back in the day).
Thank you for sharing your story! I'm pleased to hear you got to pass your love for the fantasy genre to your kids. And you're right. It is incredibly rare to find a new fantasy book as amazing as The Will of the Many now. :')
Thank you for making this video! I like discussing topics like this with irl writer friends, and I couldn't resist commenting below. I have some dissenting opinions, but I also haven't read all the same books you have, so please take my thoughts with a grain of salt.
I think the main problem is publicity and trends, as you pointed out. Most of the time, people will buy books that get good marketing, and that's it's own issue. We need a way to get epic fantasy to blow up on TikTok I guess lol (I can't believe I'm typing that but it might actually be true). The relative lack of publicity is absolutely due to trends, but I'm also struggling to think of a time when epic fantasy was getting a lot of publicity outside of ASOIAF, Kingkiller, and Sanderson type unicorns. Especially for longer books. I don't think epic fantasy has ever had its "golden age" in the first place. It's always been just a few standouts, and then otherwise, epic fantasy as a genre and its authors go relatively unnoticed by mainstream readers.
I do enjoy chonky epic fantasy books, and I'm one of the people who still thinks that most of them do not have plots or prose that support the page count. I think this about many of the classic and most often-recommended fantasy titles as well as newer ones. I don't think that pushing authors to lower the word count is a huge problem yet, especially if once authors are allowed to publish those relatively shorter books, publishers are then more lax about letting them write longer books as an established name for an established audience. I feel like authors should "prove themselves" before publishing huge tomes. Rothfuss, for example, should be an exception, not an expectation. I feel for Peter McLean and other authors in his position though - being told to make your book that much shorter on a deadline must be terribly stressful and I think it's on the publishers to communicate what they want earlier and more clearly to authors and agents.
I think that fantasy authors should take pacing and efficient prose into account way more often. Most books just don't need to be that long, and shouldn't be so dryly written even if the world is rich and the magic is cool. I feel like I'm still tolerating prose in most fantasy books instead of enjoying it, and I would love it if more authors challenged themselves to go beyond purely serviceable prose more often, to overexplain less, and more. It's at least equally important to plot out books and structure chapters with an eye toward efficient pacing that supports the story they're telling, which I feel is missing from too many fantasy books. As long as authors are allowed to publish multiple books in their series, I think it's fine if they work on structuring their series in such a way that each book is satisfying and under a certain word count. I think this applies both to epic fantasy and to ALL fantasy, including adult romantasy and YA fantasy, most of which are much too long for the stories they tell.
I dislike most romantasy and am grateful that publishing has defined romantasy separately from the rest of fantasy, but I am frustrated that romantasy is clogging up social media and book publicity in general especially in the adult space.
You're welcome! Thank you for your comment. From my perspective, there were times when epic fantasy books were more "popular". Now, you're right on some things. Epic fantasy as a genre, not counting Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Kingkiller Chronicle, and Sanderson's books is very rarely known to the general audience. Even Sanderson. I don't think many people in my city or country know who he is. But to compare epic fantasy publications from 2000-2020 to now, I think Covid, Romantasy, and Cozy fantasy have totally changed the landscape of SFF.
I agree with you, though, that authors need to prove themselves in traditional publishing before publishing a 300k-350k words tome. Especially because there are plenty examples of bloated epic fantasy novels. And it is very hard to entice readers now into trying epic fantasy by an unknown author with a debut of that word count. But I still think 100-130k for epic fantasy is most often not satisfying enough. Like the case of Peter McLean and other authors I mentioned. What if the story DO require about 50k words for it to become one satisfying book? Being told to compress to 100k words is brutal and restrictive. So hopefully things won't be this intense for trad pub authors who DO love writing epic fantasy. :)
I am a person who mostly reads nonfiction and horror nowadays but my younger sister reads epic fantasy and has told me how it’s only romantasy that’s being published lately as you said. I hope we can go back to more variety someday. Also loved the Dune reference 😂
Yeahh, it's the sad state of publishing for us epic fantasy readers. Thankfully, we do have a lot of options to read books published in the past! :D
That's why I'm glad to be an Indie Author and I write epic fantasy :D
No word count limits for me. I'll use as many words as it takes to tell the story the way it needs to be.
Exactly. Good luck in your career!
Loved hearing your thoughts on this topic too, Petrik.
Thank you so much, Tori! Been thinking about it for a while now. Your video reminded me to talk about it hahaha.
@@PetrikLeo Good! 🤘🏻
“If you want to read a book about spice, read DUNE.” 🤣 So true!
Wow, I did not know fantasy authors were being so restricted by word count, and I’m going to guess this is a new thing. Thanks for sharing about that and for shouting out the video discussion Tori and I did! Happy epic fantasy reading, Petrik!
Thank you so much, Johanna! It is thanks to your and Tori's video I finally remember to talk about this. So thank you for that. But yeah, fantasy authors being restricted by word count feels off to me.
This was a very interesting video. I do want their to be space for a big epic fantasy books, but I do think there is at least one upside to the current state of the industry. Namely, I think a lot of fantasy authors have gotten used to writing massive books, and so they never ask if the book really ought to be shorter. Sometimes a story is better when it is less than 100,000 words. I read some new fantasy books, and they often feel quite bloated.
That is definitely something I can agree on. There are, undoubtedly, bloated epic fantasy books that can and should be trimmed down. Wheel of Time is one of the most popular examples of this, imo. And there are many other examples. But at the same time, I am rarely satisfied by a 100,000-word epic fantasy novel. Most of the time, I felt it needed more page or word count. At the end of the day, it depends on execution, though. :)
Yeah I’ve gotten into epic fantasy in the last year and I notice all the fantasy is mostly romance heavy now. I’m not into romance right now in my books so I don’t love that. Like you said it would be nice to have a balance. But I’m all for the cozy fantasy!
Exactly. I don't want other genres to disappear, too. I still like reading cozy fantasy after all! But yeah as I said, i want more balance. Not vanishing epic fantasy 😅
I just released a novella about hillbilly vampires, and someone asked me if there was spice in it 🙄 I know it's not epic fantasy, but the demand for smut is real
I know right? It's like some people want to read porn with plots no matter what. Which is OKAY, but it doesn't have to be in every book!
I’m just starting my journey of self publishing my books, all epic fantasy. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what genres will last, which will remain popular, which ones will see lulls. I think it’s a fantastic time for epic fantasy writers who want to self publish, but that could change. I think it’s best if authors don’t follow the trends and stick to what they love and know. There may be lulls that come and go, but I enjoy reading the epic fantasy that’s available to us now, and I hope I can provide an abundance of stories myself for the genre in the future. Good video, always an enjoyable watch 👍🏻
Thank you so much! As you said, I think it is a great time for epic fantasy writers to self-pub. Don't get me wrong. Competition is super fierce and a lot of research needs to be done. But I think it's better than being trad pub with minimal support now. Or any... :/
@@PetrikLeo 100% Best time but also the most competitive time. Going to be a tough journey for sure, trying to distinguish my writings enough so that they stand out. Consistency though is really important, as I assume you’ve seen with your channel and efforts. Putting in a lot of good consistent effort over 5-10 years yields better results by far than giving it your all in the short term and then giving up when quick results don’t show. Anyway, I could go on and on about these subjects! Thanks though for your comment and your relevant material you keep putting out 👍🏻
I think the one thing to keep in mind is that especially for smaller publishers, it isn't about maximising profits so much as it is about generating profits in the first place. Also in a time of audiobooks and digital books, the market for traditional books is shrinking, so having smaller books means also smaller losses , when those books don't find success.
Interestingly enough, here in Germany it has basically been this way for a very long time. The original run of Wheel of Time in Germany was 37 books, the five GoT books had been split up into ten books originally, the Shannara books were split up in duologies or trilogys for the German market and so on. Same goes for Sanderson's Stormlight Chronicles and even Stand-alones fell victim to this; I just read Kay's Tigana, and even that had been split up into two parts by the German publisher.
No I'm no author, and I don't have any expert insight into traditional publishing, but I'm wondering if new and upcoming authors of Epic Fantasy couldn't play that system and write their books accordingly. 130k words are still ~500 pages, so instead of a 1k pages tome, just publish two 500 pages-books instead. Still the same content, still epic fantasy, and if you write at a consistent pace, readers don't have to wait so long for a possible sequel. Personally, I would probably even prefer this, because with my tbr being as huge as it already is (and still growing), I already had to make that decision to read either one huge tome or to read several smaller books instead. It's one of the reasons Sanderson's Stormlight chronicles and Malazan are still waiting to be read by me, because I also want to read comparatively shorter books like Hannah Kaner's Fallen Gods series, or S.L. Huang's Water Outlaws, and as much as I love sprawled-out Epic fantasy, I also love other genres and don't want to constantly have to chose one over the other.
So maybe it's just because I'm so used to it, but I kinda prefer the German way of splitting up things (ok they went completely nuts with WoT, I have to admit), because it allows me to jump between genres without having to feel like I left a book in the middle just to read something else before finishing it (and yeah, I'm aware that it's psychology playing a role here).
I think small publishers are dealing with this situation differently. As you said, it is about generating profits in the first place. I am shocked by the number of books the German edition of The Wheel of Time has. 37 books!? That actually makes the series more intimidating to me. For whatever reasons, I prefer having smaller number of books but bigger words in each than 37 books but smaller word count each. Just my opinion, though! :D
@@PetrikLeo Ironically, I learned about Wot through an ad for the first three books (German version), that said "the epic trilogy by Robert Jordan". What I got was the first book (Eye of the World), part 1 and 2 and the first half of the second (Great Hunt). So I didn't even know what I got myself into at the beginning. And I think they even split a few books up in 4 parts, which is complete brain-wrecking in hindsight.
This said, those books came as small paperbacks, so the intimidation factor wasn't that high. Also, I grew up by reading German author of adventure novels Karl May, whose collection encompassed 75 books (all around 500 pages), and at the speed I was reading back then, I was pretty fine with it.
Yeah I feel this. Currently on a 5th polish trimming my novel down 10k words from 235k now and I’ve already started book 2. I feel like it may be more enticing for new authors to write more in their series. I’ve found it’s improved my first novel, while also pinning me ahead of this next year if I’m unable to grab an agent. The stories must be told! So indie will be the path for epic fantasy until trad pub feels differently lol. So far responses for my word count (226k) hasn’t been good. But it’s the expectation
Dr. Phillip Chase is likely a good example of this, writing all three of his books for his trilogy before release
Good luck with writing! Philip did an absolutely incredible job publishing his three books immediately in a single year. Something that is truly impossible to do if he went the trad pub route.
I find this pretty crazy, mainly because of my own reading habits, but I am not very likely to read any fantasy book under 500 pages.
Oo well, at least indies are still doing it, excited to start the Echoes Saga soon.
Echoes Saga is great! The series did go on a bit too long, but I'm on the unpopular opinion. Many people love the final two books so much. My favorite book in the series is book 7! :)
Given how book reviewers/readers with platforms are speaking up against the unfair and greedy practices of traditional publishing industry, there is change to be made especially in the indie publishing industry. I appreciate how much indie is growing thanks to creators like you who take time to research and promote new books. Also, while there is no doubt that traditional publishing is mostly focused on cozy fantasy and romantasy, these genres are not the cause of the "downfall" of epic fantasy or because people want to read these books. I know that is not what you meant in your video but there is a constant conversation that makes fun of people who are currently reading those books that promotes prejudice and a certain stigma over romance, spice, and cozy fantasy. The publishing industry is to blame alone. It only cares about money and while it seems like readers of these favorited genres are getting all the attention, there are many issues with the quality of the books being published and due to the greediness of this industry, it also takes away opportunities for other great new authors who are hoping to write original romantic stories. They might be publishing more of those books but in truth they're recycling the same old stories that romance readers loved in the beginning. Imagine ASOIAF being published over and over again. Anyways I know this got a bit long & I appreciate you if you read all of this. Again, I know that is not what you meant on your video and you addressed the issue with lots of respect. I only wanted to add to the conversation and also bring awareness that traditional publishing is hurting all genres and readers and most importantly, any author who wants to write new and original stories. This is just my experience as someone who reads epic fantasy, sci-fi, and romance.
Well said! And yes, I do read your comment! I want to make it clear. I am happy romantasy is bringing in a lot of new readers. Cozy fantasy as well. I love cozy fantasy, too! As I said in the video, I just wish there was more of a balance in promotion and publication. There is more depth to this, but without proper marketing and advertisement, other genres won't thrive. Fourth Wing originally exploded because of words of mouth that was first spread out by the marketing team by giving the books to the correct targeted reviewers. The rest is history. :)
Over a decade ago I was writing my first drafts, each of them around 150k. Until I realized that while doing everything by myself, writing too long stories was not a good idea, otherwise I would take too long to publish anything.
However, my latest project is around 75k words, but divided in 4 short stories following the same characters. I’m a huge fan of Robert E. Howard; his worldbuilding of Conan was amazing, through mostly short stories and novellas.
Everyone writes differently. Some are suitable for writing shorter books, and some are more suitable for writing big books. :)
Petrik...I love your video. Thank you. As someone dissolutioned with fantasy atm...it makes sense to me to realise that a large part is the marketing of publishers. I love a huge epic, we don't see many pushed these days. You're reminding me how much I love the genre
Thank you so much, Michael! Really glad to hear my videos can remind you of your passion of the genre. :)
Damn that shade at GRRM is the best I've seen since Christopher Ruocchio said something along the lines of: "You can afford to wait for the next book a lot longer than I can afford to not write it. See, us non-millionaire authors actually have to write."
😂
He said that!? 🤣🤣 Brilliant.
GRRM at least does write - in contrast to Scamtrick Slothfuss who openly lies to / scams his fans since his ghostwriter left.
Though authors do still need reasonable financial security to actually write consistently. Significantly contributing to long time between books can also be having to take other jobs, be they writing advertisements or a non writing related job.
If that is really directed at GRRM, and not a warped quote that people chose to direct that way, then it reflects very poorly on Christopher Roucchio as I see.
GRRM is 75. He's been writing since the 70s - sold his first story at the same age as Rouccchio, 22 - and has a good amount of books and TV scripts to his name.
When he started in the 70s, despite a Hugo nomination, his writing alone wasn't bringing in money so from 24 to 27 he was a chess tournament director and from 27 to 30 a college instructor, all while still writing. Only in his early 30s he was able to become a full-time writer, established enough to live off of it, and that's older than Rouccchio (who's 28 if I'm not mistaken) is right now.
@@VinnieMF I doubt it was specifically at GRRM, but I’d say GRRM and Rothfuss are the two who epitomize it the most.
Those two have fucked over an entire generation of young authors, as there are tons of readers now who simply will not buy book 1 of a series until it’s done, as they refuse to be burned again. Larry Correia wrote an essay about it that’s a good read. Because of this phenomenon, a lot of book 2s and book 3s will simply never get written, because most authors can’t afford to write an entire series before books start selling.
Great video mate and totally agree. So glad that Self-publishing is booming but it’s also sad to see how fantasy is being hit in traditional publishing. But epic will come back!
Ed
Thank you so much, brother! I know John Gwynne's epic fantasy will always have big audiences now, though. So that's GOOD for us! :D
I feel like the publishers should charge a bit more for chunkier books to make up for the costs. However, they may assume that if a random book reader goes into a store or Amazon they may buy the cheaper book which would be shorter and not sell as many as the longer books that cost more. I disagree with this and believe fans of the genre will buy expensive longer books if that's what they want. But I think publishers are short sited. I think many of the publishers that make decisions on new authors are most likely folks that have been there a long time and are much older. If some folks were say maybe only in their 30's and in control of these important decisions, things may be a bit different. What do you think?
And again, I think many people would buy the thicker book is they know what their looking for for another $5-$7 or so.
I'm not sure about that. I don't think there are any clear infos on the age of the people in control and whether there are any correlation between the book publication. It can also be argued if there are relations, older people in charge would want classic epic fantasy they grew up with more. But I don't know. There are many unknown variables to this.
But for prices, yeah I would actually buy bigger books at a higher price than a shorter book with a high price. Murderbot or books published Tordotcom are good examples of books I try not to buy unless they're discounted.
As a diverse reader, even I have to say I agree and I’m glad you’re voicing your opinion and concern over this. I’ve read many a ‘romantasy’ book but it’s become such an over-saturated genre and now it’s near impossible to find something fresh in it. I do miss chunky, long-winded epic fantasy books and I hope this current era will eventually come to pass and we’ll be able to find some balance again.
Also, loved your comment about spice! Laughed out loud so hard. ❤ There’s a series The Magister Trilogy by C.S. Friedman (published in 2007 if I’m not mistaken) that reminded me of the fact you can write a great epic fantasy book and have spice in the story without said spice being redundant and repetitive. At least that was my experience with the trilogy when I read it many years ago. It was excellent and I wouldn’t even categorize it as ‘romantasy’, it was a high fantasy story that had some spice. I think there’s potential for you to enjoy it, too. 😊 The first book is called Feast of Souls and yes, the original cover was that atrocious. 😂
Thank you for the kind words! I needed to voice my thoughts and concerns. I'm glad people agreed with me on this. I don't mind having romantasy or cozy fantasy in the genre. I encourage them actually. But not for the sake of sacrificing the release of epic fantasy. So hopefully epic fantasy will be back in full swing soon in traditional publishing! I'm glad you loved my comment about Dune hahaha. It just came to my head when I was talking. :D
I've been saying it for a while, but this is why indie is winning! Very disheartening to read that update from Peter McLean, I had no idea things were so 'dire', if you will. That said, I do like that there are so many more vibes, spices, and flavours to try out under the fantasy umbrella now; there's something out there for everyone! Great video, Petrik, thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
Thank you so much! Yeah, I love that we have the option to read self-published fantasy books. They don't seem as burdened by word count. Even though I know big books means more expensive publication and price still. But yeah, there's something out there for everyone. :)
its probably moving in the same direction as the romance market, where you basically have to become a success in self publishing and then the publishers will swoop in afterwards.
That's definitely happening already. I'm seeing more and more successful self pub epic fantasy getting a trad pub deal. 😄
Just started the video so forgive me if you mention it later but I kinda feel like a decent amount of notable recent epic fantasy have been web novels (Lord of Mysteries, Wandering Inn, and Practical Guide to Evil come to mind) but obviously web novels are still a very hard sell to most readers so it’s really unfortunate that we’ve sorta gone in this direction
PS: while I’m on break from Lord of Mysteries at the moment, I know you said it’s on your TBR so I wanna say that you’ll absolutely love it if you don’t mind a pretty poor translation!
Lord of mysteries is great, praise the Fool.. but my favourite web novel is Emperor's Domination. The dark crow Li Qiye is one of a kind 😊
I definitely will read Lord of the Mysteries! I'll enter it with patience on the translation. 😄 You're right, though. Web novels are hard sell. It's only recently I started reading it, too.
I've been noticing this problem for a few years now where I live in Europe, with some publishers abandoning fantasy series (leaving them incomplete) to release these other "fantasies" instead. Not only that, but they are refusing to reprint books they have already translated and are popular.
And I would like to suggest you watch a video made by a channel called Chieko Kurokumo since she also got right to the root of the problem.
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give it a watch soon!!
The Dune spice joke made me laugh out loud 😅 I definitely agree with you on all points here. It’s a shame to see the books we love taking a backseat to what’s popular right now, but at least it gives us time to read the hundreds of backlog epic fantasy books on our TBRs!
Thank you so much, Antonia! That's my thought as well. At the end of the day, it's sad, but also not a big deal after thinking I still have almost 1000 books to read... xD
I wouldn't mind saying that I write epic fantasy. My Victorian-era novel, Adjutant, is coming out on May 15th. It is a 680-page epic fantasy with multiple POVs, battles, political intrigue, seven distinct magic systems, and history. It's a book, one of a trilogy, and I'm not sure if anyone would be interested.
Never give up. You will find your own audience eventually! :)
Even in Indie pubs, there's a pressure to stay under a certain word or page count due to printing costs. My part 1 debut epic fantast was a little over 250k words, and i was strongly advised to cut it into 3 books. So a planned trilogy and novella is now looking like 9 books.
Then to learn (quite recently) that most indie fantasy authors try to keep each book between 50k-60k words.
I experimented with a stand-alone romantasy at 265k words, and the cost to print and distribute is ridiculous. To make just $1 for every physical copy, the retail price needs to be over $35.
A tip i got from other authors was to shrink the font size so it cuts down on the page count and cost. BUT so many readers have complained about tiny print.
It kind of feels like being backed against a cliff by a polar bear.
And while we'd think "at least there's not a limit to ebooks, because there's no printing cost", certain distributors will force a higher retail price. It's insane! If i didn't know any better, i'd say it's trying to push out owning physical books and push out indie authors entirely.
Makes me sad because i love epic fantasy -- diving into new worlds, new perspectives, new possibilities.
This just goes to show the business is brutal on both trad pub and self-pub authors. I think at the rate the competition is increasing, it's becoming more ruthless, too. Though... the same can be said for many other businesses in the world. That retail price at $35 earned $1 is insane, though. I don't think I've heard of that before!
The very fastest way to get me to stop reading a blurb and move on is for the word “romance” to appear. I’m so over it.
Same here. It has been that way, and it will always be that way. xD
I wonder if the future is self published. I know nothing about publishing but by design if a person or people have any sort of control over your story it seems like it can go bad. I remember Erikson being interviewed on A.P.s channel and he made a comment along the lines of he couldnt make X story longer due to publishing page limits. If you want to write a 6k page book why can't that be allowed in todays publishing? I dont want authors to play by these rules anymore. IMO it just leads to control. Nobody should tell what an author can or cannot write but the author themselves. Sure editors are needed but not the level of control publishers have now.
The future won't be self published until we can remove the kraken that is Amazon from dominating it and open up more services for accessibility.
Self-publishing is here to stay and thrive. I'm not sure it will be dominant but it will stay strong as a competitor, imo. Trad pub has so many restrictive rules, as we know.
Great video Leo! And your input is spot on in many aspects! Remember, BIG organizations are slow & more inflexible to change than agile Indie authorpreneurs, and yet big organizations (public ones) are also at the mercy (via CEOs) to shareholders, and face immesurable pressure there. That is one of the reason there are so few big trad houses left with consolidations Big trad are big organizations. NOTHING can take precedence over the bottom line. The beauty is, there are plenty of big chonkie, epic Indie fantasy books coming out every day! Enjoy what is on your bookshelf, as you note! You will indeed find plenty to enjoy over the next decade! Happy reading!
Thank you so much, P.L! And well said. I have MANY books to read still. Yours included. Happy reading and writing to you, too! :)
Totally agree with you about most of the concerns that you have, but like you, my backlog and TBR are so huge that I will be OK for years. Also that does not include re-reads which I also love to do. We will be fine. The Wheel of Time turns. Be well, stay safe
Well said. I still have to finish The Wheel of Time, too! :)
Interesting video, Petrik! I think this is a sad trend in fantasy books. And unfortunately, I see this trend in other genres too- soft sci-fi, cozy mystery, and chick-lit in contemporary fiction and literature. These "softer" books were there before- but there are WAY more now! I've tried these types of books- they're usually bad- on all fronts: plot, pacing, writing style. I don't understand the cult following for some of these authors. And the romantasy upsurge is disturbing! What does it say about the mindset of the public at large that these shorter, fluffier, cozier, spicier books are so popular?! Where's the quality...?
its because they are highy appealing for the younger crowd. Especially with booktok where a great majority of viewers are at middle school/ high school age. These sorts of books are appealing because they are easy to digest, or are extremely "spicy" which also plays into the younger demographics that like tiktok content
Thank you so much, Tiffany! Yeah, this trend apply to both fantasy and sci-fi, and I assume other genres as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some of them were great. But they're just not for me. Romantasy in particular feels like reading porn with a plot. I'm actually shocked there's a LOT of demand for it. :D
Echoing what you mentioned about your backlog... I think not having a lot of new epic fantasy from traditional publishing is a good thing, for us as consumers. (While it might be terrible for new, upcoming authors)
I think we have enough to catch up on from the last two-three decades.
Yeah. I have so MUCH to read! Hahaha. Let's see whether this can give me time to make a dent on my backlog of books!
Well... shit. I've been writing an epic fantasy series (technically portal fantasy, but it's essentially epic fantasy with a few contemporary elements) for the last 2 1/2 years and I'm still trying to find a literary agent for the first book (I'm writing the 8th one, at the moment. I've been keeping the word count for each around 100-115k, but some of them have cliffhanger endings, so it's essentially one story divided into 2 books.)
If traditional publishers aren't looking, I'm probably going to have to self-publish.
Definitely keep going with that. If trad pub isn't looking your way, self-pub is always a viable option. Make sure to look into the market and do many research before publishing, though! :)
Every hobby I have is slowly dying one way or other
I collect comic statues 1/4 and 1/3 scale and that market has gone down so much now
I collect Master Grade Gundam,and bandai has nearly stopped producing new MG gundams it's all exclusives now and really hard to get here in India
Comics I collect hardcovers but due to reduced demand many indie comics are moving to kickstarter
Hot toys I would say is still pretty popular but not as much back in its heyday
But self published fantasy is also hard to get here in india,i have been looking forever for sword of kaigen paperback
Self-published physical books are notoriously difficult to get where I live, too. The only reason I own a signed Sword of Kaigen paperback is because the author sent a copy to me. :')
Thanks for your video. You are so right😢 I see the same problem in France…
You're welcome! Thank you for watching it!! 😄
@@PetrikLeo It's worse in France. Since 2009 and an enormous mistake of a publisher the rise of romance - in the begining paranormal romance and further fantasy romance - was enormmous. The new adult fantasy have important sales and mainstream spec fic decline.
We pais a serie of butterfly effects linked with big editorial mistakes. In the english lmanguage publishing you had the good gamechangers in the good moments - Mark Gascoyne for example with Solaris and Angry Robot. He have published the good things for the new generations.
I believe you will be the next gamechanger next.
It became clear to me that this was the case when in the entire trad pub industry there was exactly ONE adult epic fantsy debut last year. One! Godkiller by Hannah Kaner. All the other epic fantasy debuts published last year were either debuted as self-pub first and then republished, published by authors who debuted in other genres and made a name for themselve there, or published by non-debut authors. It's sad.
And get this, Godkiller is only 100k words. I don't know about the quality, but that size is relatively small for an epic fantasy novel.
@@PetrikLeoGodkiller is great!
Trad publishing has always been like this. Even when I was querying my YA fantasy at a 120k the agents that requested suggested I shave off 20k. If I'd done that the book would loose some of its world building. The chapters were precise and I do know for a fact that the story wasn't lagging as multiple eyes were on it and comwmtwd how cinematic it was. I eventually pulled the book because I wasn't going to sacrifice the eccence of the story. Publishing still refuses to acknowledge that New Adult is a genre. They just shove those books into YA category to bridegroom the gap. Javent touched a trad pub book in years. They arw too formulaic. Sticking to self published books is the wisest choice I ever made.
Yikes. Shaving off 20k words out of a 120k words book is a lot of cut. Very likely the book will lose something important. Glad you found your way in self-publishing!
Good video. Always good to hear your personal views.
Seems like this is part of the greater ticktockification trend of popular media.... shorter, faster, the opposite of what an epic fantasy is.
Maybe this is a good thing... pushing more writers to self-publish what traditional publishers dont want to.
Thank you! TikTok definitely affects the publishing industry, imo. It sparked more readership, which is GOOD, but at the same time, it seems to decrease people's attention span even more. I am thankful I have the option to read self-published fantasy books, though. They don't seem to be affected by this change. :)
@@PetrikLeo Wattpad has influenced publishing industry too around 2015. In Francer few new adult spec fic publiishing houses have published Wattpad female authors with big community to make a buzz. And they have reach à big level of sale. It disrupted market. I dont't know if you had the same thin in US.
I usually never read fantasy books below 400 pages in length because they don't have the time to truly provide an immersive and emotional experience. Building a vibrant world and making me care about the characters takes time and pages, urban fantasy being the exception. In fact, I've recently shifted to almost entirely reading fanfics and story-focused and original visual novels because they don't let outside restrictions get in the way of the stories they're trying to tell. Restrictions on authors directly hampers the quality of their work. Authors changing their works should be done on the basis of constructive criticism provided by beta readers and editors and not industrial demand, IMHO. Right now I mostly read good indie books and VNs because they have a palpable sense of life and passion in them, and aren't afraid to break the moulds set by the publishers.
It's genuinely sad that publishers are so determined to trade creative freedom for extra profit.
Well said. This is why I like to balance my reading with self-published books and sometimes even webnovels. Don't get me wrong. I still have a LOT of trad pub books published in the past I want to read. But for new release, it seems like indie fantasy books tend to earn my interest more.
Very well said! Always so hard to hold onto vision when business gets involved. A battle that goes all the way through history.
Definitely not the first time this happened. 😄
I think that the size of Fantasy books in recent years has gotten out of hand. I am older, so I remember when a Fantasy trilogy would be epic and everything we loved but maybe came in at 200K for the whole trilogy. Earlier works are even smaller. There is really nothing wrong with that. There is so much bloat out there - just think of WoT - that could be streamlined so much and would cause so many more people to read it. I miss the days of standalones and slim books. A lot of us don't have the extra time to spend on these massive series. We end up having to decide on one long series of massive tombs - like WoT - or a collection of smaller trilogies with a bunch of standalones and maybe a couple duologies or a quartet. For me, the answer in that question is clear as crystal.
As an aside, there is self publishing and kickstarters. I know is sounds like a slap in the face, but many authors - great authors - in Fantasy and all other genres (as well as non genre and non fiction) have had to go this route. The end result will be that they can write the larger books if they want and if the audience is there for it that's wonderful. We are in a new age of publishing - and in truth this publishing that is ending is not that old (only a couple generations) so really we have nothing to complain about.
Thanks for letting me rant,
Andrew
I don't feel that much bloat in epic fantasy books tbh. Obviously, there are books with that syndrome, again like WoT. That series can be 7 books long and it would make the series even better. But for me, I just don't get much satisfaction from small books. Again, not a blanket statement. They can offer great reading experience, but VERY rarely they turn into something memorable for me. Well, we all have our preferences when it comes to reading. But at the end of the day, regardless of word count, I think everything as always depends on the execution. There are disappointing small books and bloated fantasy books.
I like reading a wide variety of genres (which includes both epic fantasy and romantasy). The publishers jump on these trends, and oftentimes, it results in rushed/mediocre books. So not only are we likely to miss out on great epic fantasies, but the Romantasies that get published are likely to be worse than the popular ones out now. Just like what happened years ago with The Hunger Games and YA/dystopian books that followed.
Oh god The Hunger Games and YA/Dystopian trends were viral back then. I think we're in this stage right now but with romantasy except of YA Dystopian.
Very well explained for those of us who aren't in the weeds with the pub industry.
You're welcome! Note that I could be wrong. This is just my observation. 😄
I was feeling this without being able to place a word on it!! I felt like every other month a new series was popping up that I was getting hooked but when I check out new books I’m kinda meh … I love epic fantasy and sci/fi and the romanstcy just isn’t what I’m looking for - awesome opinion video
Thank you very much! Haha I was just rambling my thoughts tbh. It's something I've been thinking for a while. Feels so rare to encounter a new epic fantasy novel from a new author now.
There are a couple of things i’ll blame:
1. Paper costs. Boomed during covid, now agents and editors want fantasy books shorter than like 100k. Not all, but definitely some. How would Epic Fantasy manage to thrive in that same environment?
2. Rothfuss and George. I listened to a podcast a few years ago and an established author straight up said his publisher didn’t want to risk an epic fantasy series because of another “unnamed” very popular fantasy series that wasn’t writing books anymore so the publisher was just stuck.
I agree with these two he did not really get into the reason why publishers want shorter word counts. It all has to do with the bottom line and we as readers expect a certain paper quality especially if it is a hardcover.
The other one is also true sometimes I am considering whether or not I want to pick up a new series due to being unsure if it will be finished. In the case of GRRM he keeps his publisher happy with all the other books he had published. But that is also the reason for me not to buy them. Since by buying those books you are saying it is okay that you are writing other stuff and not Winds we will keep supporting you anyway.
Paper cost booming in price is definitely a big influence on this. Many fine press companies have mentioned the insane increase in paper and printing price.
I don't know how much George and Rothfuss unfinished series influenced people's buying decision now, though! But that has certainly played a part a lot of times in the past!
@@PetrikLeo I think the damage is done to a lot of people who won't read new series anymore as they release because they fear it stalling. I know several of those. Authors with proven consistent output might still be considered.
130k sounds nice. The Runelords is very epic and generally the shorter books. A novel by certain standards only needs to be 40k. But I say this as someone who reads a lot of that 1970s and before fantasy
I look forward to reading Runelords. Tbh, many fantasy books I tried with fewer than 100k words does not click with me too much. They're good but also not memorable or satisfying enough because things ended too quickly or many aspects felt underdeveloped.
My two cents on this topic is that I still have much established epic fantasy to read so I do not personally desire for 10 new titles to be released every month. There would be no point when I am currently still exploring the known greats I have no time to explore the new voices right now.
Fair! As I said, i still have many epic fantasy books to read while I wait for this trend to be over. 😄
@@PetrikLeo The ideal is still for a process to be in place for the standout masterpieces from new authors to still be published and appreciated by publishers.
There is another problem. The influence of pop culture. Cinema and Video game industry ghave a real impact on publishing.
In the end of 2000 there was the age of "hoody" fantasy, stories about assassins. The publishers have surfed on the success of Assassin's Creed. Recently there are few novels about multiverse because Marvel Cinematic Universe.
But there is no big movie on epic fantasy. And no video hit on epic fantasy without dark.elements. The mediatic environnement doesn't fit for the publishers.
That's a good food for thoughts. I didn't think about Assassin's Creed immense popularity influencing books as well, but I think you're right. There were so many hoody characters in front of fantasy books for a while!
I can't really think of any mainstream authors I am currently reading outside of Sanderson. Right now, I read mainly indie, and I do in the progression fantasy genre.
That's unfortunate, I think there are many awesome mainstream authors too!
@@PetrikLeo if you got any req that you can offer. I am a big magic systems guy. I am not a big fan of grimdark or overly political narratives. I have read most of the big names.
Cozy fantasy and romantasy are popular right now because there’s a wider need for them in the culture at the moment. The world is in really bad shape right now and a lot of people are struggling financially and socially. So it’s not a wonder that a cozy low stakes feel good fantasy to escape like Legends and Lattes would appeal to a lot of people. And modern dating has become all but impossible for both men and women, so it’s little wonder that people want to vicariously feel some romance in their lives via literature. But these are just symptoms of the times we live. Eventually they will pass and people will want to go on epic adventures again.
Yeah, that's true. I have no doubt epic fantasy will surge again! I remember when Legends and Lattes hit the market at the right moment. Definitely rare to have something like that happening. :)
@@PetrikLeoIt’s for this reason I can’t enjoy grimdark right now. Real life is already depressing enough as it stands.
Just about the time I thought Petrick never ages (his hair/scruff always look the exact same length in every video), he goes and gets a haircut :D Just teasing. Looks good. I'm torn. I love epic fantasy, but I also get enjoying shorter works as well. The Rage of Dragons was 535 pages and that felt about perfect to me. You can only read so many 800-900 page books. And I know some people who won't read anything over 300 pages.
Hahaha! If only I never age. I hate aging hahaha. For me, I love both epic fantasy and shorter works. The issue I have with this is because trad pub seems like they're going to cut down epic chonky books completely for a while. :')
Self-publishing writer here who writes mainly Romantasy with heavy world and character building. I think the publishing trends will always be wild, but if people want to write bigger books they should look into self-publishing if the trad route isn't going the way they want. Many people love big books but big house publishers are always going to be worried about a profit, look at the publisher or Iron Flame (Fourth Wing book 2) and the drama surrounding the release of the book, they were looking for a quick buck and it was a massive failure. Trends will always come and go but Fantasy will always be around. To writers, if you read this, write the book you want to read and your readers will find you. I want to get into more indie published fantasy, but I don't know where to start and I know I will fall down a rabbit hole.
Hear hear. Write the book you want to read, and your readers will find you sooner or later sounds about right. Self-publishing, more than ever, is a good option now. It won't be easy, that's for sure. But you don't have to rely on traditional publishing to become a published author now. I know many self-pub fantasy authors, if we're speaking about sales, who makes much more than tons of trad pub fantasy authors.
You make an excellent point that things are cyclical. Trad publishers will get back on board at some point. Self-publishing is such a viable option now, as you have helped contribute to, that I think we will have plenty to read. Also, as a business person, I have to think that new publishing companies may emerge that are outside of all the consolidated huge firms. Now go read Dungeon Crawler Carl! It's so good on audible. You'll also love He Who Fights With Monsters. You can blame your TBR on me :)
Thank you, Brian! I plan to read Dungeon Crawler Carl this year. Waiting for the hardcover copy to arrive! 😄
Have you tried the Last king if Osten Ard series by Tad Williams. ( It takes place 30 years after the first series) Im loving it. Its actually even better than the first imo and more mature writing. Can't wait for your thoughts and review.
I did. I have read The Witchwood Crown, as I said in the video. I will be reading Empire of Grass soon!
It makes sense that when people pay for "books" and not "words" that authors (both indy and trad) will be encouraged to publish more short books than fewer long books since the ROI per time is going to be a lot better for 5 60K books than 1 300K book.
I do wonder if some of the awards need to carve out an award for best epic book (say 200K+?) the same way novella and novellete (and short story) are separate awards. It is a little hard to do that since "novel" is the main even and some epics would like to win that, but it would be good to have a way to recognize epics. Maybe it could be there while novel maintains any 40+K so people could be dual eligible the same way (in theory at least) animated or documentary or international movies are all still eligible for best movie oscar.
There USED to be that kind of award. It was called The David Gemmell award. The nominees are epic fantasy or chonky books. Loved that award. Such a shame it has been discontinued. :/
I'm planning on spending the next 25 years of my life (minimum) on an epic fantasy graphic novel series, so I sure hope that pendulum swings back 😅.
You're definitely contributing to the pendulum. Keep it up!! 😄😄
I agree with @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy on this one…it’ll bounce back and if not a new publisher or a new way of allowing epic fantasy to come back will allow this to happen. But yeah, self pub works as well…see Ryan Cahill’s huge series for example.
It will definitely bounce back! Ryan Cahill is only one of MANY epic fantasy authors having success in the indie fantasy market.
For what it's worth, that 100k word limit seems, to me, to be anecdotal at best, and something much more frequent in US publishing at worst.
My books are space opera, and sci-fi gets a lot less wordage than epic fantasy does. All of my books with Gollancz have been published at 150k+, with Book 3 shaping up to be at least 200k. For my next series, an epic science-fantasy we're aiming at 150-170k. Possibly more. I have heard of authors being asked to stay within the 130k-150k range, but again, that's only from US-based publishers. I know ONE UK publisher who has told an author to stay at 100k for his standalone, but he's writing crime thriller fantasy, not epic fantasy.
Don't get me wrong: there is a trend towards making books shorter, and the days of GRRM-sized tomes is almost certainly at its end for everyone but the GRRMs of publishing. But it perhaps it isn't so bleak for those of who do write a little on the longer side. :)
I wouldn't say it's anecdotal. I have received tons of messages about it from authors. However, you may be on to something saying it's from US publishers. Thinking about it, most of it really do come from US publishers. As I said, though. It's not a blanket statement. Right now I can't think of any epic fantasy (as in really epic) debut published this year. Last year we have Godkiller which cloaked in at 100k words. 😅 I don't mind 130k-200kish words though.
I lament this reality, but do think things are cyclical, so it'll be back! But I'm like you: my TBR mountain has lots of epic fantasy to dig into until publishing swings back around!
Hahaha exactly! Great minds think alike, Josh! 😄😄
Really great video. I’m fine with changes in the industry because I love classic fantasy and really do not care for modern fantasy. I love a 300 page book. Give me more Feist, Salvatore, Sullivan and of course many more Alex Verus and Dresden. Love your thoughts and ideas.
Thank you so much! I still need to read Alex Verus, but I have read Dresden. But remember, Sullivan's books and even Dresden Files has gotten much bigger than 300 pages now. :)
This is sad news Petrik ! I love big books so much !!! :(
Ironically,im reading New Spring by Robert Jordan,started as a god tier fantasy book than went lower to top tier ... great read though,I like it !
It is. But remember. We still have MANY big books to read. Just a bit unfortunate we won't see many exciting big fantasy books being published by new authors for now. :)
I blame also Covid. Because during crisis the publishers have contracted debt. Have made loan. Today they must repay the bank. And they must publish hyper bankable books. Romance are enormous niche they bring back much money. The rentability imperative are the main cause to choose romantasy.
That is definitely true. :'D
This is why I started reading Black Library books
I have to start doing that, too!
@@PetrikLeo I highly recommend the Horus Heresy series, it's the most epic and most grand scale book series I've ever read.
I feel like Western trad pubs are moving towards something akin to fantasy/SF webnovel pubs in Asia. Debut and journeyman authors are all shifted onto pay-as-you-go digital platforms where your work is serialized by chapter and dependent on reader surveys to stay running. Print editions are a prestige part of the business reserved only for the best-of-the-best (biggest moneymaker) writers.
Ah, yeah. It will be interesting if we ever see Western trad-pub following a similar model. I know popular webtoons are getting physical books now. And they're BEAUTIFUL. Like Solo Leveling and Omniscient Reader!
Excellent contribution Petrik. Will this not cause writers to choose Self Pub more often in order to tel the stories they want.
Thank you so much! I don't know. I favor self-pub fantasy here, but this is to show that self-published IS an option. Not everything has to be traditionally published to be read. There are many amazing indie books as we know. :)
I wouldn’t call trends from the past couple years the death of epic fantasy. And it’s always been the case that it’s hard to get longer books published as a debut or when a writer isn’t as successful - authors publishing truly epic length books as a debut has always been rare. It’s always been something that the writer has to fight for to an extent.
However, it is true that those constraints are getting harder due to strained supply chains raising the costs of producing physical books (combined with the decline of print books and bookstores generally). So a thing that was already hard is getting harder, but I again wouldn’t call that the death of the genre. What seems inevitable, then, is a focus even more on ebooks and audiobooks due to the lessened overhead (at which point length becomes a pro rather than a con). But does that mean the death of trad publishing? I think it’s highly unlikely. Keep in mind that basically every bestselling indie fantasy author jumps on trad publishing the moment they get the chance (including yet another example in this video), implying that most authors themselves still see the benefit of trad publishing when it’s offered to them.
I think, based on my observation and experience, epic fantasy debut used to be published much more often when Game of Thrones was at the height of its popularity. I certainly witnessed epic fantasy debut being published frequently during those times. STILL not as many as romantasy now, but it was much more balanced.
Not the death of epic fantasy per se, but it's more to imply that epic fantasy in trad pub is declining. Which is accurate. I've heard from people working on traditional publishing that submissions for epic fantasy books are much fewer now. As for the case of indie fantasy jumping on trad pub, it needs to be mentioned that successful indie fantasy now tend to only sign the rights for the physical books. Their ebooks will remain self-pub and own by them. For example, Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman. The amount of sales and money the series earned through Kindle Unlimited, many trad pub authors will dream to have the success Dungeon Crawler Carl has. The ebooks for the series alone most likely earn him around $100k per month. I'm not projecting numbers. Michael J. Sullivan and plenty of indie authors have talked about their incredible sales, and usually when self-pub authors on this level sign with trad pub, trad pub is the one that benefits. In reality, these successful (not all indie authors are this successful of course) self-pub authors don't need trad pub anymore. They need them only because they want to see their physical books on bookshelves. Just like what Carissa Broadbent di with her super popular and successful self-pub romantasy series.
1:28 Me waiting for The Winds of Winter, LOL
😂😂
As a newer author myself, longer books are harder to sell without a proven track record to fall back on. Readers are hesitant to invest in a 600 page book from a new author, but 300ish pages is much more palatable. As a reader, this rule applies to me too. When I find a author I love, length is no longer an issue. Dresden Files is a case in point for me. I'd read them, no matter what the length.
That's fair! And I understand that. It just feels odd to me when this is done purposefully by removing big fragments of the complete story the author wants to tell.
This makes me think of The Five Warrior Angels books. Author said they made him publish 3 books instead of 5. Even when publishers agree to run the book, they're always trying to appeal to the masses.
Yup. That's another series that gets decreased because of sales. Everything about the series led to the number 5. Such a shame Brian couldn't make it happen. It is still an incredible trilogy, though, despite it!
since i mainly read used and/or older books i can never really run out of epic fantasy :) but if publishers currently aren't offfering contracts for epic fantasy series to promising authors, it kinda sucks for authors that would like to create epic fantasy novels... having to freelance and self publish epic series sounds very risky. i wonder how much negative impact kingkiller and soiaf had by being hyped as fuck and then left derelict by the authors without that satisfying conclusion an epic needs... how many unsatisfied readers have already stated they wouldn't start another possibly great series until the last book is out to protect themselves from massive disappointment and waste of time and money? (sanderson is totally underrated for saving wheel of time imo...). so if publishers believe or actually experience that a series makes money AFTER being finished, it sort of forces their hand to make the series and individual novels shorter, as short as they can and still call it a "novel"
Yeah! I don't think I'll ever run out of epic fantasy books to read. As I said, I still have tons of epic fantasy books published in the past to read. Not to mention my favorite fantasy books I want to reread as well! But you're not wrong. Even though it shouldn't be the case, the immense success of the popularity of GRRM and Rothfuss plus their unfinished series definitely stopped many readers from starting an unfinished series. It's sad because most authors DO finish writing their series. :/
I do feel that that epic fantasy written by and for women is gaining speed. I think it’s just “mantasy” that is being given less shelf space as patriarchal stories become less relevant to the zeitgeist. Romantasy is being given heavy spotlight, but I think this will even out to fantasy that is still romance heavy but more focused on logical world building and magic systems, but, you-know with more female centric stories.
Interesting points. I haven't seen many EPIC fantasy books written by women lately, though. It seems like all of them romantasy or marketed based on whether the main characters are straight or queer. But I get what you're saying. I don't mind fantasy books with romance. Love is a powerful force we all need, after all. I just wish there was more of a balance. :)
@@PetrikLeo Female writers like Kate Eliott or Michelle West have writtent epic fantasy. And other fantasy famale writer at Dawbooks for example.
Today asian or african born women write epic fantasy too.
Comments from France 🙂 Same situation here. Traditionnal publishers are switching to romantasy and we see alt publishers filling the void and specialize into epic fantasy (ie. trad publishers loosing their original market). Cosy mystery is not yet famous over here.
Before long, everything will be dominated by romance. :')