Excellent and nuanced video, mate! I think I agree with all your points in this video. A big part of the conversation probably comes from me and others using the term "dying". I should maybe have said "on life support" or "not trending" haha. Keep up the good work!
Funny, epic fantasy has been dead to me since trad publishers started only publishing GoT knockoffs. It's only because of self-published authors that my love for the genre has recently been rekindled. Kel Kade's "King's Dark Tidings" (5 books), and Andrew Rowe's series (11 books) are two ongoing series that finally brought fun back to the genre after trad. publishing killed all sense of the fantastical in their grimdark arms race.
I would just like to reiterate that nowhere in Johanna and my discussion on Epic Fantasy and it's place in current publishing trends did we say that the subgenre is dying. XD Our discussion was meant to be a more nuanced exploration of market trends, what epic fantasy is, and how it may be difficult to find footing in mainstream reading based on what is en vogue at the moment. After we did that discussion, all of a sudden everyone was doing videos on "IS EPIC FANTASY DEAD???" So... I just wanted to clarify that our video at least never made that claim and I actually also completely disagree that epic fantasy is dying. It's not going anywhere. I'm happy to see everyone's perspectives on the topic, I just don't want to be included in the "people who think epic fantasy is dying" club. XD (I will also mention that I can absolutely see why you included it based on the current status of the Booktube conversation.) And I think your second question, Is Epic Fantasy Going out of Fashion Right Now? is closer to what Johanna and I were exploring.
100%! I loved your chat with Johanna which is why I included yours in the “to watch” list. I do think the inclusion of dying in some of the titles was just for catchy thumbnails and titles. Which is why I had to bring it up in the video too
@@the_fools_tale Totally agree, I just had to laugh with how quickly it escalated, and wanted to reassure everyone that I don't actually think epic fantasy is dying. XD I appreciate you drawing attention to our discussion, we had a really great time with it.
This was enlightening! I've always thought "epic fantasy" meant a fantasy that involved a quest or epic journey of some kind. I hadn't realized it meant a fantasy that is particularly grand or world-spanning in its scale. Good info!
I like your Slingshot Theory! It makes the most sense as to why we are potentially seeing less epic fantasy. For a while, epic fantasies were more popular than shorter fantasies. Now, we are just seeing the opposite effect. I do think it will come back again, just like everything else does. Plus, it gives readers a chance to move away from traditionally published books and go check out indie published epic fantasies so it has it's perks! ;)
Your slingshot theory might be correct but that's cold comfort because it takes a long time for these trends to reverse. It's like saying to someone in 2005 don't worry about all this grimdark, cosy fantasy will come along in 20 years!
Excellent point about what will it mean for the readers? Nothing or very little 🤣🤣. We already have so much to read that till we finish up our TBR we would already created another TBR of double the size of our previous one 😝🤣👻
As well, I think it takes such a talent to keep readers invested for 10+ volumes compared with shorter works. Hobb, Sanderson, Tolkien, GRRM etc... they have rare genius. I read fantasy of all lengths, but for me the chonkier the better. I'd definitely class books like Priory of the Orange Tree as epic in feel, content, and length, even though it stands alone. If Shannon writes another 12 I'M IN!!! You're absolutely right about publishers being reluctant to gamble on a 10 book series from the offset.
I don’t think epic fantasy is dying, I’ve seen so many videos saying it is and that’s not accurate so maybe it’s not at the forefront in booktube and booktok but it’s there. And there’s so many to choose from.
I honestly think there are genres, sub-genres, and sub-sub-genres. Fantasy is a genre. Within that we have several sub-genres like high fantasy/sword and sorcery, epic fantasy, low fantasy. Within those larger sub-genres there are multiple smaller sub-sub-genres. Urban fantasy, flintlock, romantic, grimdark, Asian-inspired or Middle Eastern-inspired, lit-rpg, and cozy. All those smaller genres will come under the headings of the main, larger sub-genres. We are still getting epic fantasy. It just is coming in the form of those smaller sub-sub-genres. And because it doesn’t look like it used to (even though a lot of it totally does), people think the whole genre is dead instead of that people are expanding the categories within that larger epic umbrella. A TON of epic fantasy from the 80s and 90s were multi book series, but none of the books were longer than like 300 pages in mass market paperback side. GRRM and Robert Jordan were outliers, not the norm, not by a long shot. I also think that a lot of people aren’t just going into bookstores and browsing. There are so many fantasy books that get published each year, lots of them epic, and no one reads or buys them. I’ve enjoyed hearing about so many indies, because it seems like most of Booktube only reads the mainstream, popular and publisher-pressed books. There are tons of both fantasy and science-fi series that I see in stores and I never hear them mentioned. So what’s being bought and read are the popular books instead of lesser known or unknown authors.
To add on to the whims of publishers, with the amount of media available now, it's probably a lot harder for people to justify picking up doorstops or otherwise committing to lengthy series. But the ever-widening variety of books published also means less spotlight. Epics probably aren't the most marketable these days. But anyway, cozy lit and romantasy won't be the cause célèbre forever, either.
No offense but Malazan is a terrible example because it is probably the only time that after the first book, the author was immediately signed on for 9 more books. Yes he had proven himself but it doesn’t tend to be an immediate “hey go make 10 more books” from anybody. But for the most part I loved the video- keep up the great work.
I really do not understand the argument. It is evolving and becoming more doverse and inclusive and telling different stories..which is great and necessary
It's OK. Epic fantasy can slow down a bit. It'll give me time to catch up on all the epic fantasy series I haven't gotten around to reading yet 😂
Same here! I’m never completing this TBR haha
Mood !
true!!!
Excellent and nuanced video, mate!
I think I agree with all your points in this video. A big part of the conversation probably comes from me and others using the term "dying". I should maybe have said "on life support" or "not trending" haha.
Keep up the good work!
I appreciate it! Yeah definitely! It’s an interesting topic with publishing in such a weird place right now
I would rephrase the question as: Is Epic Fantasy Going out of Style for Now in the Realm of Traditional Publishing?
Funny, epic fantasy has been dead to me since trad publishers started only publishing GoT knockoffs. It's only because of self-published authors that my love for the genre has recently been rekindled. Kel Kade's "King's Dark Tidings" (5 books), and Andrew Rowe's series (11 books) are two ongoing series that finally brought fun back to the genre after trad. publishing killed all sense of the fantastical in their grimdark arms race.
I would just like to reiterate that nowhere in Johanna and my discussion on Epic Fantasy and it's place in current publishing trends did we say that the subgenre is dying. XD Our discussion was meant to be a more nuanced exploration of market trends, what epic fantasy is, and how it may be difficult to find footing in mainstream reading based on what is en vogue at the moment.
After we did that discussion, all of a sudden everyone was doing videos on "IS EPIC FANTASY DEAD???" So... I just wanted to clarify that our video at least never made that claim and I actually also completely disagree that epic fantasy is dying. It's not going anywhere.
I'm happy to see everyone's perspectives on the topic, I just don't want to be included in the "people who think epic fantasy is dying" club. XD
(I will also mention that I can absolutely see why you included it based on the current status of the Booktube conversation.) And I think your second question, Is Epic Fantasy Going out of Fashion Right Now? is closer to what Johanna and I were exploring.
100%! I loved your chat with Johanna which is why I included yours in the “to watch” list.
I do think the inclusion of dying in some of the titles was just for catchy thumbnails and titles. Which is why I had to bring it up in the video too
@@the_fools_tale Totally agree, I just had to laugh with how quickly it escalated, and wanted to reassure everyone that I don't actually think epic fantasy is dying. XD I appreciate you drawing attention to our discussion, we had a really great time with it.
This was enlightening! I've always thought "epic fantasy" meant a fantasy that involved a quest or epic journey of some kind. I hadn't realized it meant a fantasy that is particularly grand or world-spanning in its scale. Good info!
Great addition to the conversation, Andrew! You made some interesting points and I enjoyed the video!
I like your Slingshot Theory! It makes the most sense as to why we are potentially seeing less epic fantasy. For a while, epic fantasies were more popular than shorter fantasies. Now, we are just seeing the opposite effect. I do think it will come back again, just like everything else does. Plus, it gives readers a chance to move away from traditionally published books and go check out indie published epic fantasies so it has it's perks! ;)
Thank you for the information. That is helpful.
Your slingshot theory might be correct but that's cold comfort because it takes a long time for these trends to reverse. It's like saying to someone in 2005 don't worry about all this grimdark, cosy fantasy will come along in 20 years!
Epic Fantasy and is evolving or mutating.
Excellent point about what will it mean for the readers? Nothing or very little 🤣🤣. We already have so much to read that till we finish up our TBR we would already created another TBR of double the size of our previous one 😝🤣👻
Good video, solid points. It's not a slingshot, it's a pendulum :), and I agree.
Yep, it seems important to acknowledge the distinction between "dying" and trending down.
Love this list Darko, i liked advanced too he was the most solid of Harry's dorm 😎 and wow Deadhouse Gates, yes!!!
As well, I think it takes such a talent to keep readers invested for 10+ volumes compared with shorter works. Hobb, Sanderson, Tolkien, GRRM etc... they have rare genius.
I read fantasy of all lengths, but for me the chonkier the better.
I'd definitely class books like Priory of the Orange Tree as epic in feel, content, and length, even though it stands alone. If Shannon writes another 12 I'M IN!!!
You're absolutely right about publishers being reluctant to gamble on a 10 book series from the offset.
Dying is passive. It is being eviscerated in the dead of a moonless night by those who loathe concepts such as faith and hope.
I don’t think epic fantasy is dying, I’ve seen so many videos saying it is and that’s not accurate so maybe it’s not at the forefront in booktube and booktok but it’s there. And there’s so many to choose from.
I honestly think there are genres, sub-genres, and sub-sub-genres. Fantasy is a genre. Within that we have several sub-genres like high fantasy/sword and sorcery, epic fantasy, low fantasy. Within those larger sub-genres there are multiple smaller sub-sub-genres. Urban fantasy, flintlock, romantic, grimdark, Asian-inspired or Middle Eastern-inspired, lit-rpg, and cozy. All those smaller genres will come under the headings of the main, larger sub-genres. We are still getting epic fantasy. It just is coming in the form of those smaller sub-sub-genres. And because it doesn’t look like it used to (even though a lot of it totally does), people think the whole genre is dead instead of that people are expanding the categories within that larger epic umbrella. A TON of epic fantasy from the 80s and 90s were multi book series, but none of the books were longer than like 300 pages in mass market paperback side. GRRM and Robert Jordan were outliers, not the norm, not by a long shot.
I also think that a lot of people aren’t just going into bookstores and browsing. There are so many fantasy books that get published each year, lots of them epic, and no one reads or buys them. I’ve enjoyed hearing about so many indies, because it seems like most of Booktube only reads the mainstream, popular and publisher-pressed books. There are tons of both fantasy and science-fi series that I see in stores and I never hear them mentioned. So what’s being bought and read are the popular books instead of lesser known or unknown authors.
"Once you're dead, you can't come back" is a very non-epic-fantasy attitude :P characters come back from the dead all the time! lol
To add on to the whims of publishers, with the amount of media available now, it's probably a lot harder for people to justify picking up doorstops or otherwise committing to lengthy series. But the ever-widening variety of books published also means less spotlight. Epics probably aren't the most marketable these days. But anyway, cozy lit and romantasy won't be the cause célèbre forever, either.
Even if it dies, necromancy is real!!! 😉😝
No offense but Malazan is a terrible example because it is probably the only time that after the first book, the author was immediately signed on for 9 more books. Yes he had proven himself but it doesn’t tend to be an immediate “hey go make 10 more books” from anybody.
But for the most part I loved the video- keep up the great work.
Guess your house is haunted by a book fan lol
Can we stop monetizing this topic? It's apparently algorithm is loving it and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon
I really do not understand the argument. It is evolving and becoming more doverse and inclusive and telling different stories..which is great and necessary