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The Gentleman Gamer: Good in the World of Darkness or: why Humanity doesn't suck!
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- Опубликовано: 15 дек 2011
- In which the gentleman in question talks on the subject of 'good' in the World of Darkness, it's existence, and whether it should be a game focus. This is a response to other RUclipsrs; alokov, boltorange and felipe1gojira
In this video the gentleman specifically covers Vampire: The Masquerade and Vampire: The Requiem, although he does touch on other role-playing games such as Promethean: The Created and Wraith: The Oblivion.
![[Gentleman Gamer] Horror in Changeling: The Dreaming](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5h0ClzX7IKA/mqdefault.jpg)
9 years later and I love coming back to this videos brotha!
The problem with "humanity" is the term. Give a large group of people the right circumstances and you get behavior which pretty much would put a vampire close to 0 humanity.
Humanity is a lie, but it's a necessary one. If vampires just acted the way they felt like, the beast would take control. However, most people fear this loss of control and force themselves not to see their peers as snacks, but actually feel compassion towards them. This lie gives them the power to say no to the voice of the beast.
The paths of enlightenment are similar. As a Vampire ages, they will most likely lose humanity. The world and vampire society have little place for compassion. Worse still: "human" vampires will suffer through losing their lost ones and will have centuries, maybe even millenia ahead of them. Thus, they keep emotional distance to mortals to avoid the pain of loss. More and more, the lie of humanity will fall apart for most. Then, a religious vampire may actually start believing that his curse was part of Gods design - that vampires should be the terrors of the night so that humans grave The Lords light and protection. Other Vampires may come to the understanding that social norms don't apply to Vampires since Vampires already are above humanity - with the potential and the duty to become something even more superior. These new lies don't end the simple truth: deep down, the vampire still is a feral beast.
Humanity/Morality: 3
Action that are normal behavior that doesn't require an ethic/ morality roll: Intimidation, extortion/ random theft " shake downs," covering and committing manslaughter.
Remind you of any political social groups of behavior for the past six years ?
I normally role play a Country Gangrel that winters in cities with my playing group, problem if you stop and think about the Path of the Beast. Once the Grangrel levels out around 5 to 7, their instinct would be just to avoid cities and other kindred all together/ go to ground to sleep out the cold or go to cities to Althing meets with other Gangrels to trade tales. Then again my group normally plays Sabbat, or Sith Lords ...
Then there are the Malkavian characters I played, murder was just an intellectual hobby. Dead bodies just disappear or laid out in a manner a serial killer would display their kills. In a mock astrology religious occult setting.
Caine: The first pragmatist.
I actually met him while drunk on bloodwine, during the winter holidays of 2007, granted I was drunk as hell
I always play a character trying to keep humanity. Like my character jack, he is not keeping humanity because he fears he is damned but because he has morals from when he was human. He was part of a group of vigilantes who hunted down people who have murdered, raped, kidnapped, etc. Jack sees unlife as a blessing given to him by a dragon god he believes in, he believes that he can now ascend to a higher level and keep humans safe by being this immortal vampire.
Humanity is, in my opinion, the most important part of a Vampire game.
I as well believe this. That is my problem with new world of darkness, it just doesn't feel truly like the same style of playing. All the covenants are basically evil murderers expect for the carthians. And even then the carthians are these communist militants that I just despise on a political level and on a mortality level because most want you to give up individuality in the name of the group. That is not what I play when I do a humanity based character.
Alexis The Dragon pardon?
Oh never ins
Never Mind*
For some reason this reminded me very strongly of *The Man Who Laughs* and it's protagonist *Gwynplaine.*
The setting is very dark and tragic, as is the story itself, but to me that only made the goodness in Gwynplaine, Dea and Ursus all the more meaningful and touching.
The part I found especially moving was the bit where Gwynplaine is actually placed into lordship, and yet brazenly rails against the unjust nature of the system in place in the very council of lords, despite all the comfort and wealth his new station provides, and him of course instantly having to face the harsh dark reality and getting ignored by the other lords as a "mere jester."
The whole story is IMO an absolute masterpiece, and possibly my favorite story of all time.
That book is on my to-read list and I intended to read that one day but I really need to get it now it seems
I actually think the Paladin specifically is an interesting character to bind to alignment because it is a class that represents the noblest of humanity/sapient life. Or at least used to be, it has admittedly moved away from that a bit. This is despite me not generally liking alignment.
I was wondering if perhaps you could do a quick video on Golconda. What you think the benefits and drawbacks are of it and whether enlightenment automatically ends a story.
Up to you, of course. But, I am FASCINATED!
Perfeito! Estou mais do que contente por ter encontrado um tópico tão interessante. Acho que posso dizer que me sinto contemplado. Humanity is the subject matter of Vampire, as it´s a metaphor to ....Humanity itself! Congratulations Gentleman!
I love this video and I partially agree with the view of good / evil. Especially when we take paths and roads into consideration, good and evil is extremely elusive. However, take Humanity for example. Instead of being good and evil, upon embrace, the person is shackled to "the beast." Consider it similarly to sanity and the battle against madness. I see it as entirely irrelevant to good or evil, however it does have societal implications upon the perception of evil. We could then compare the Camarilla as a religious institution (not technically correct but it works in theory) that then created laws which then affects the perception of what is good and evil (as this is simpler than simply seeing it as justice to maintain a society). Thus, this incorrect perception produces a sequential perception of individuals with greater humanity as "good" and lesser as "evil." In short, the humanity system is not by nature a morality system but more of a sanity system.
When we introduce enlightenment, we stumble upon a seeming contradiction--a place where we seem to find a reason why it is a good/evil system. However, consider this: enlightenment on any path does not represent ultimate good or evil (although once again, a perception of good/evil can be incorrectly and subconsciously imposed upon it) but rather mastery. For humanity, it is a mastery over the beast; the beast no longer pulls the kindred to madness and because of this mastery, the kindred has attained incredible power that was unattainable to those who still are simply trying to survive. However, most paths see humanity as a useless fixture to beings of horror and seek to dominate the beast in a different way. They seek to master the beast and harness its power. On both sides of the coin, if you will, while there may be a societal perception of good and evil, the core of both beliefs is simply to attain mastery over the beast in various fashions.
One more complicated example that crosses my mind is the Path of Blood (the Assamite's path) that believes that adherence to the path will produce favor by which they may be granted power. In this case it is more of a religious belief in which the followers must have some semblance of faith that those who are more advanced in the path are "good" and the opposite as less "good." However, this again is mere perception and does not demand that it is actually a measure of such.
I consider the notion of "good and evil" in great similarity as I see reality. While there may be an objective good and evil, it is impossible to truly determine to a point where there is no shadow of doubt to its veracity and such a pursuit is made exponentially more difficult by societal and unconsciously conditioned perceptions of good and evil.
Sorry for the lengthy comment :/
I designed a path at one point (specific to the metaplot of Gehenna) so I had to do a considerable amount of thinking on this subject. I centered it on the idea of free will and the pervasive Camarilla perceptions of good and evil. While it justified diablerie, it was extremely harsh on the kindred if he coerced, harmed, or even revealed himself to a human. The idea surrounding it was that time must inevitably drive a kindred insane to wreak havoc upon the world and that they were my nature a blight upon the world. Thus the goal of the followers of the path was to systematically destroy all kindred and memory of kindred until only the followers of the path were left thus beginning a period where the members were destroyed from the least loyal until the most loyal were left who waited a century in hiding to ensure all kindred besides themselves were extinct and that humanities memory of kindred had been cleansed and upon success committed ritualistic suicide to finally rid the world of their existence.
Even here, good and evil is merely a perception. This perception however is particularly dangerous to kindred because it seeks its extinction.
Just a thought.
I love playing high humanity characters. Trying to hold on despite everything that happens, especially with a Caregiving nature, is a lot of fun. Although if you finally do fail that Degeneration roll... it leads to quite an interesting game. Roleplaying a caregiver losing their touch with humanity while still acting in accordance to their nature is rather complicated and fun, especially if you succeed on a redemption arc and get humanity back.
I agree, just because the world is itself is dark and often harsh and gloomy doesn't mean the characters have to reflect that but instead they must struggle with their inner darkness and grasp onto their humanity. It may also be faith in the human condition of sorts. Great video, also you can just call me Phil. :)
@ArphenMaethor I won't reply to every single one of your comments, but I do want to say to you that they're all excellent. Thank you! And I agree!
Iron Liz said it best about the Morality system, it assumes that only bad people gets mental problems. I try to use it as best to my ability, but I forget it fairly easily. I had a house rule where, even if you succeed in a Morality, your still gonna get a Derangement. It's a mild derangement, and you can "buy out", you'll still have it when you have to make the roll again.
Perhaps most people live in the absence of good and evil, just a grey area of neutrality. Only those rare heroes and villains might claim it.
i've just noticed that the audio is very good in this video. i'm not sure how far back the improved recording goes. (i'm not up to backtracking for this comment) however, just, good show. very nice.
The whole basis of morality in a good RPG is how events challenge your characters sense of morality. Acts have consequences and it is one of the things I love about VTM and the concept of paths of morality (or lack there of). I always enjoyed playing licks that struggle through the ages to maintain the values that make them who they are. The juxta position of playing a monster that still has an aspect of personal redemption through their view of right and wrong.
This is why canceling the mummy line was a mistake... you need light to make the dark stand out
It is even funny in the old world of darkness you even feel bad for there "ultimate bad" The Wyrm when you find out it was trapped by the Weaver. And it is hell bent of caching up on destruction because it was held back from being something like Shiva.
And for the Nephondi they actually see the tapestry as a incomplete work that need to be burned it can not go on longer it should not and every thing is an illusion a Nightmare even oblivion is better than the prison like the tapestry.
@DayAfterRagnarokFan I'm not saying all vampires would try, but I do feel that the vast majority would do so. Damien was embraced and saw vampirism as a blessing of a sort, but that doesn't mean he's completely abandoned his humanity or what made him human. He still involves himself in human cultures, human actions and still has human sympathies. He's not so far gone (yet) that he's prepared to just forego his humanity.
That is a good point. In the world of Vampire, the player assumes the role of monster struggling to retain Humanity.
@Luna4547 Quite agree. The vampire is a cursed human, not a monster from the start of the embrace to final death.
@clackclickbang Now THAT would make an intense character concept. I'll bet those guys would manage to keep their Humanity through the centuries and millennia. The brochure never said eternity was going to be a piece of cake, but if you can tough it out, you just might make it through with most of your soul intact. And even if you don't, it'll be one hell of a ride.
Also, Mr. Gentleman Gamer, you mentioned Saulot as attaining Golconda. Yes, Saulot is mentioned as being the philosopher, spiritualist and moralist of the Antediluvians, as exemplified by his clan weakness. However, I also recall that there are references of Saulot's dark side, such as how he allegedly created the Baali. Also, the Kuei-Jinn have a less than stellar opinion of him. As far as I know, they refer to a "Zao-lot" who stole knowledge from Xue, the founder of Kuie-Jinn society.
@mollytherealdeal That is the base model, yes. I'm not saying it should be a constraint, but rather that the vampire is ultimately a human with a curse, not a monster with no feelings, empathy and so on.
@Samwise7RPG Exactly, and that's the same reason I like Spawn! It's good to see antiheroes in action, and even better when they're railing against the inevitable. It makes for a good story. A cursed being swiftly becoming a monster and revelling in it isn't necessarily enjoyable to me.
Wonderfully said, as always.
@TwinAgateDragons Let me know how your campaign writing goes!
I was going to play a Sworn of the Ladder in the UK Requiem LARP.
Considering all my other LARP Characters were practically Batman Villains...
@Wintersverd I'm not saying there's no representation; my argument is that it's not black and white. Even the Wyrm is multi-faceted. By no means is Oblivion a state anyone of sound mind would wish to reach, and the realms outside such as the Dreaming are more indicative of alignments than any actual denizens of the WoD, but they are all still abstract concepts unquantifiable and ultimately impossible to understand by mortals, vampires and mages alike.
@herkles1 I don't believe so, as most Paths refer to having to at some point or other feeding from the kine, and ghouls never have to do so. With the ghouls having an arguably easier way out through their being able to see the sun, eat, drink, make love etc. they aren't quite the monsters (although they are monsters) that vampires are.
The Baali might count as pure, uncompromising, evil.
intresting, nice that you bring up shiva.
anyways, I disaggree with you on some points, but for the most part I do agree that humanity is the default path and should be easier for people to cling to, harder to hold onto but perhaps easier then changing to a path.
the exception is in the road/path of the beast IMO. because that road is a natural path but about being animalistic, it is not constructued unlike the other roads and and paths which if I am not mistaken are artifical.
This I would agree with. Especially in V:TM; vampires can try to be good and behave but face it, if you were always good, always fair, then you would be killed very quickly either because you pissed someone off or you wouldn't do the underhanded sneaky necessarily thing to survive. And if you don't survive then there are alot of good things you can't do or people that you could protect. Sometimes the best you can do is hold back the bad.
@Onionkid99 Quite. Humanity is integral to the concept of the game and all vampires have it. They can try to retain it or let it slough off, but the latter is sometimes more difficult.
I agree with ya so much. Good and Evil, it's not so simple. If you play a vampire ENTIRELY evil, then you are just playing it wrong. Well, at least in the World of Darkness setting.
@alokov Quite. Feed from the willing, if you can find them. If you can't? Feed but do not kill. Keep yourself alive but respect others. It's quite possible for a vampire to retain humanity without melodrama or vanity entering into it. A vampire could have a genuine desire to do no harm, simply because it doesn't gel in her mind that because of this curse she should somehow come up with a half-baked code to justify her monstrous acts.
Golconda - The Clean Eye makes everything completely pure.
Always Been interested in how People play oWoD, I've always been of the Mind that there is no "Happy Ending" for most of the characters in it.. Atleast in the long run.
nWoD on the other hand... Yeah No happy End for they Majority but for yourself? That's certainly possible.
I'd actually love to see a nWoD version of the Keui-jin... I loved those guys.
Then again i'd also like to Play Either a Malkavian who's Demention is that he's thinks he's on a Reality TV Show, or a Tzimisce that's trying to stick to the Path of Humanity.
I've heard from a lot of people how much they enjoy the nWoD, but not very many of them were oWoD players first... This may be why the possible WoD MMO is based in the oWoD. The only reason I haven't been too interested is simply the removal of the metaplots. For me, playing through the metaplot after spending a great deal of time in the universe is extremely satisfying. Sadly my City Gangrel character died fairly early on, but he was far behind in experience to the other players because I went out of state for college.
I like the analogy to OG mutants (Marvel comics) Magneto was convinced because of their physical gifts the mutants were homo superioris. But, the mutants had all the same failings as humanity. The same pettiness, the same lust for power, the same ego driven irrationality, etc. etc. The X-Men understand this and don't give in to their "beast" the way Magneto and company did.
@tfwoods3 It is mentioned. The clan founders are supposedly the only vampires to survive it.
Cont.
the other exception comes in the form of the giovanni and other revenants, yes the giovanni are revenants, particularly the dark ages version more so then the modern nights. they often are subject to inhuman practices mostly be the tzimisce revenants. though the giovanni ones have similar weird family things.
though I would say it is the tzimisce revenants that tend to follow paths more often then the not. Do you suppose that they can follow a path before being embraced?
Well indeed! But humans also have more redeeming features than monsters just after your blood, even when you keep the bad stuff in.
@lilikesound I think it's a good idea and makes you cling onto the original intention of the setting.
Have you ever considered running a fan game of vampire? You could set up a prize draw or something on facebook and the people who win, however many you so choose, get to play a game of vampire: The masquerade with you as either the story teller or as a character depending on which you would prefer.
@Backfromthedeadguy A fair comparison, though I like to think of it as a kind of mania. Their depravity will eventually have to reach greater heights to fulfill the same desire. So the struggle should be proportionate to the characters' power.
@Burori1 Indeed sir, you are correct!
Good also creates a contrast...if you lets say only confront your players with baali, nephandi and such it will get boring and even the sickest things you do wont have any effetct on the players. Drama needs something good to happen first. It is the heavy contrast between good and bad that reaches your players hearts and involves them in the game. After all darkness could not EXIST without light (and vise versa) since without something different you cant tell which is real
This is the type of character I would like to play in vampire. A newly embraced tremere who wants to try and do everything he can to stuck to humanity
@alokov I suppose it depends on vampiric age, but I would still argue that most vampires are on the Path of Humanity in both settings. Some vampires are unprepared, unwilling, uneducated or unable to completely shift their philosophy to something other than human. Bear in mind that they are forever surrounded by humans, probably moreso than they are other vampires. They can't just go around acting like blood-crazed tyrants without expecting eventual mortal reprisal.
@alokov Maybe at the beggining, but while the vampire descend from the path of humanity, the predator begin to ask for more, as the old badasses vampires, they dont even feed on human blood, but on vampires blood.
@tetsubo57 I suppose different people are drawn to different things, and that would be why!
@herkles1 I think Paths need to be adapted to the times, just as Humanity does. Social acceptabilities change with time after all.
It could be said, at least in nWoD Vampire that Dracula is a "good" guy. The little I've read gives me a lot of empathy for Dracula. Especially with the "Coils" merit that seems to be all about rising above the curse and working past it to gain more humanity in the process. The Coils all seem to be about getting rid of the things that make Vampires terrible monsters in the WoD to allow the suffer to just live their life as they see fit.
@herkles1 Ah, well there lies the rub. As Victorian Age: Vampire said; even vampires were shocked at the fact that Jack The Ripper wasn't some lupine or Malkavian but a human being just like the folk they usually prey upon.
This topic brings to mind Dexter and his "Dark Passenger". He's not a vampire but he struggles with his need to kill while trying to maintain his humanity.
@boltorange I await your response!
Valid point! The good is in the PC!
The question depends upon knowledge rather than morality, if the character is not human. The less a player knows at the outset, the better (other than the game rules). The players are taught how to become their characters.
Very true. But one can aspire to be good.
I agree that in the WoD, heck, all RPG',s that there needs to be a perfect"good" that is needed. It is this hit and miss of the target (the moral ambiguity that is laden in WoD) that creates conflict, which is the fuel of fantastic story.
Ah, what a helpful video! Thanks, Gentleman.
If you enjoy my work, please check out my current Kickstarter for They Came from Beyond the Grave!, an RPG of 1970s horror! kck.st/2OGbDvU
@DayAfterRagnarokFan Very true! Lots of conjecture about Saulot and what he got up to in the East. Still, he had to excise his monstrous side somehow..
Every DM have a different way to approach alignment, same way every GM has a different way to approach Humanity.
@TtheWriter Ha! Thank you for saying so.
@TheHydra014 I know he said that he's put off of Vampire due to the lack of clear cut good guys. Just because a vampire is cursed to be a vampire it doesn't mean he can't perform good deeds.
@DarthAzabrush Oh? Which ones did you play as?
@felipe1gojira Quite, and there's no reason why a vampire cannot thrive in such a situation. The Beast isn't an ultimate conclusion, unless the vampire lacks the willpower to stave off his inner predator.
dude why arnt you making more videos? not only do you know Vampire but your obviously knowledgeable in D&D maybe even read Drizzt. dude make more videos your awesome
I'm too human for my clan, too human for my clan, too human for my clan, so human I'm bland~
But seriously, Humanity - At least in my opinion - Is very important for keeping the characters grounded in a WoD game. It playes a vital role for any type of character, and there's always the option within the game for people who don't want to play a humanity based character, the character who embraces their supernatural nature. You still have to go through the humanity you have to get there though.
oh here is another question, do you think it is a good idea to import the dark ages road of humanity to modern nights with its diffrent branches and paths for the modern day?
The average person can aspire to be good, but only heroes (extraordinary folk) succeed on a regular basis.
@alokov You don't have to fail! It's difficult, it's resisting the Beast, but a vampire can retain humanity, attempt to accomplish the deeds they would do in life, etc. etc. Just because they're resisting an inner drive it doesn't make it wrong. Ted Bundy was compelled to kill people, and while murder for him was an impulse it was within his power to control it at times. That's not irrational; it's trying not to give in to the Beast and trying to retain your human dignity and morals.
@falloutmnky I think that's the default archetype, certainly. You're awarded experience (according to the book anyway) for heroism.
Good and Evil are matters of perception. Not forces of nature. Some games have treated these concepts as forces of nature, as absolutes. That is part of their lore. They can not be examined too closely however or else they'd fall apart.
Same for vampire what is humanity after all. it is doing what you feel is good. And that heavily depends on the culture and time you were raised. A medieval vampire may not see deathsentence, dividing humans into "classes", kill those of other religion, rape or kill an outlaw or impregnating a 12 year old as evil as it was just normal in his time and accepted + practiced for it was needed to survive back then while a modern vampire may see these as abhorrent.
I am preparing a chronicle in a Caribbean country and basically the Sabbat in the country and only 3 Sabbat are in the country like strong chiefs. Of those 3 there ate one sabbat that uses chaos to control the country, is this form ir setting good?
@TheHydra014 Thank you for saying so, Mr. Hydra!
@Deckof51 I think Humanity is exactly what keeps Vampire and other WoD games interesting. I've played too many that are indulgent because of the vast array of Disciplines you can have. That's not World of Darkness to me; it's superpowered vampires.
Well humanity playing vampire... remembering sometimes its necesary to kill is on of hte most powerful weapons in WoD :). You feeding is pretty easy, you can use others for you objectives and makes sure you can be efficient vampire without loosing you sanity and self control (and of course its much easier to keep it cool even after few hundred years).
@Backfromthedeadguy Dexter does lose control as time goes on as well, of course.
@Suketa Thank you!
It's a fine concept!
@Demolitiondude You'll have to remind me who Iron Liz is again! Is she a member of our community that I'm unaware of?
@RudeAlert I remember reading about some vegan Hindus who found out they'd eaten meat under the illusion they were vegetables in a soup. They spent weeks after purging themselves and purifying themselves in order to restore their souls.
one of your best video
I find all you've said here very interesting, and I agree with most of what you've said, including that good should be present in the WOD. However, with that said, I don't think all characters should be assumed to be good. I mean, there are a lot of humans that harm people and wouldn't really be considered good by any stretch of the term. Vampires can be good, but the can also be quite evil, and enjoy their inner predator.
@tetsubo57 I suppose it's a more grounded form of escapism than the more fantastical D&D and so forth.
@87Julius Who's asking you to submit to anything? You should play the game you want to play. These videos are only opinions.
Indeed. There is no absolute evil in WoD.
This video help me in makeing my malcavian thank you
So, youre saying that theres no representation of Good or Evil in the Old WoD? What about the corruption as evil? and "ascension" as Good, or the simple and direct representation of arquetypes of Justice in the Umbra and Dreaming?
@2percentright A good guy or just someone trying to circumvent his condition to become an apex predator without being shackled to the Beast? Dracula is certainly an interesting character in nWoD.
@clackclickbang You don't have to go to TGWTG to watch Iron Liz.
I'm currently playing in one, finally.
Where can I find the channels listed.
There are complete monsters however. But yes at the end no one is saying mah ha ha I am evil. That is cartoon evil and it is not as scary because it is not believable and it does not imply that anyone can fall. I love the moral or Humanity system more than the Alinement. It make good and evil more ambiguous. And I do not mind the good vs evil like a Chess set or LotRs but I prefer more complex politics you see in Song of Ice and Fire or Dune rather than Star Wars or LotRs.
I have to disagree with on D&D/PF alignment. Alignment in those games is descriptive not perscriptive. You shouldn't act LG because of your alignment, you are LG because of how you act. And the primary arbiter is intent, as in your alignment is good because you act in a manner that is primarily altruistic manner, or evil because you rarely ever consider it. Law/chaos is a different and more difficult discussion, g/e in D&D is usually likelihood of pursuing an action with altruistic intent.
@Demolitiondude Oh I see. I don't really go on TGWTG as much these days.
@Ardenon1 Really? Interesting idea.. ;o)
@Nolinquisitor Sounds like new World of Darkness is for you!