It is a pleasure to watch you mature as an interviewer, Derek. The best interviewers let their guests speak at length and only intervene to gently guide the conversation in order to bring the best out of their interviewee. You have learned this lesson well over the past year.
ALHAMDULILLAH We need a nuke war, Erick. Even now when 7.2b homonids is too much what with 10b in 2050. Be careful where you nuke, however. New York is safe as are any part of Poland, Iran, Denmark and Sweden or just Arabia.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 No hydrogen bomb though. #savemasjidilaqsanow NoThirdTempleOnMountMoriah Psalm 15 A psalm of David. 1 Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent? Who may live on your holy mountain? 2 The one whose walk is blameless, who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from their heart; 3 whose tongue utters no slander, who does no wrong to a neighbor, and casts no slur on others; 4 who despises a vile person but honors those who fear the Lord; who keeps an oath even when it hurts, and does not change their mind; 5 who lends money to the poor without interest; who does not accept a bribe against the innocent. Whoever does these things will never be shaken. Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61: فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars. (English - Shakir)
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
Wow Derek! It is such a privilege to have access to world class academics like Peter Von Sivers for free on RUclips. Just extraordinary - thank you so much 🙏☺️
ALHAMDULILLAH We need a nuke war, Erick. Even now when 7.2b homonids is too much what with 10b in 2050. Be careful where you nuke, however. New York is safe as are any part of Poland, Iran, Denmark and Sweden or just Arabia.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 No hydrogen bomb though. #savemasjidilaqsanow NoThirdTempleOnMountMoriah Psalm 15 A psalm of David. 1 Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent? Who may live on your holy mountain? 2 The one whose walk is blameless, who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from their heart; 3 whose tongue utters no slander, who does no wrong to a neighbor, and casts no slur on others; 4 who despises a vile person but honors those who fear the Lord; who keeps an oath even when it hurts, and does not change their mind; 5 who lends money to the poor without interest; who does not accept a bribe against the innocent. Whoever does these things will never be shaken. Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61: فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars. (English - Shakir)
It shoudn`t be a priviledge. Scholars are emplyed by state funded universities. Therefore there should be no pay wall to their findings. That doesn't mean that scholars are like slaves to the public, but a sane society schould be organized in a way that ensures both freedom of study for the scholars and free access for the public.
No Arabs invited? Just foreigners who cannot speak Arabic and have never lived with Arabs? The Arabs have their annals too and everyone has a different story. I found this difficult to listen to. It reminds me of those fundamentalist christian talks .
His paper “Islamic Origins: Anti-Theospachism and Trisagion in the near east in the early 600s.” is very interesting, relevant to this discussion and available on his academia page. I would high recommend it! Only 4 pages but dense with well sourced information
@@horseradishpower9947 There is nothing academic about his channel. He is a Christian missionary with the most absurd claims using Luxenburg who is not an academic.
@@alonzoharris6730 his channel is academic and he is not a Christian missionary. He debunks all of your made up claims. The truth of Islam is known. There is nothing you Muhammadans can do to censor it. Slandering others will not help your cause.
@@23498cna He doesn't even have a methodology. He uses Luxenburg who is not an academic as his biggest source. He is an absolute clown. He couldn't answer any of my refutations. He also refused to explain his methodology.
@@alonzoharris6730 He uses many sources not just Luxemberg. Apart from Thomas, Every single scholar that debunks Islam , Patricia Chrone, Thomas Holland, etc for you are not good because they are not Islamic. Only Muhammadans should be listened to. Give me a break. You are part of a big cult. I do not know how long it will take you to wake up.
I think the Arabs simply needed a religious authority to legitimize their empire, which in turn required an entire mythology. So they simply invented it all, based on select bits from other religions they were familiar with, primarily Christianity and Judaism.
Yep, Islam is after the fact of the Arabian conquests. But it is an antitheopaschite diatribe with violence to make it popular among ugly, angry Arabs.
So what was it that United a people that barely ever had a civilisation ? Who was it that united them and what was he calling to ? Was it for treasures and worldly gains, because the leaders that came immediately after him were magnanimous in victory and were just in how they governed, what causes a people to act the way they did ?
He has an interesting theory. That Makkah could be in a different location may be possible. I have always wondered how such a desolate location could have been the powerful trading hub it is supposed to be. However, I think his logic is flawed and he makes some very gross assumptions. The idea that Arabia was Christian just doesn't add up. We know that pagans still existed in the Roman empire in the sixth century. Pagan academies were closed and the surviving scholars fled to the Sassanids. Isn't it probable that pagan communities existed in Arabia outside the domain of the two empires? Also, the logic just doesn't add up. If Islam started as a result of a discussion on the divine nature of Jesus, then why is the end result the absolute denial of his divinity? The Christians debating the point were at least in agreement that Jesus was the son of God and divine in some way. I don't see how u get from those points to absolute denial. If the professor discussed a group that actually held such beliefs, then maybe there is something. The Quran devotes very little time to Christians, but loads of time to pagans and Jews. The professor attempts to present 'mushirkuun', those that join (partners to Allah), as Christians. But the Quran clearly talks to them separately from the People of the book. The dialogs here is with idolaters and Jews mostly. There is far more discussion around Moses and the interpretation of his Prophethood than any other. This seems to me that the origin cannot be out of a christological dispute, but more of a dispute regarding the meaning of Abraham and Moses' covenants. This may actually point to a south or east Arabian location for Makkah. We know that there was a verifiable Jewish kingdom in Yemen (Arabia). Given that there were also a huge Jewish community in Babylonia writing the Talmud, these locations would seem to have that mix of jews and polytheists. the professor completely ignores the possible influence of zoroastrianism or manicheism. We know that the zoroastrians practiced daily prayers, ritual abolution, etc. And the manicheians recognized all prophets which has similarities to the Islamic position that prophets were sent to all nations. This is in stark contrast to any Jewish or Christian position that prophethood is locked into the children of Jacob. Lastly, there is a methodology issue here too. He seems to accept a hijrah, migration, and that verses were 'revealed' before and after this event. But that is only known thru Muslim sources, yet he doesn't trust Muslim sources. I have no problem with his skepticism, but it appears selective. Did a war party and a peace party exist? Probably, but I don't think that really shows anything. And it just makes the emphasis on Moses even weirder. BTW, Surah 9 doesn't begin with the bismillah. Scholars really don't why, but it is an intra-textual clue about the nature of that Surah. I think the professor is too caught up in his oriental worldview to really analyze Islam in its' full geo-political context.
As usual lazy religious folk judging texts they have no idea how to read for themselves. Let me ask you a few questions, the translations you're dependent upon, did you critically appraise the translator's linguistic etymological conclusions? Of course you didn't, but as usual you religious folk due to your laziness will treat translations as though they are the actual Revelation. Tell me, what does the word القرءآن mean or translate to, as I noticed your habit of romanising/transliterating certain words, which highlights the fact that you don't know the actual meaning and translation. What does the word سورة mean and translate to? I very much doubt you can competently answer, so I won't ask about your other romanised/transliterated words.
Christianity was very widely practiced religion throughout Arabia at the time. Many of the Arabic inscriptions from that time period in the region have a cross. Paganism, on the other hand, we don't have much evidence for. Latest material evidence belong to a couple of centuries before Muhammad.
I think for three reasons 1. Most Christians are not interested in religion, so no matter how famous the guest is, he will not get many subscribers 2. He does not host Muslim sheikhs who have weight and knowledge, and Muslims are committed to their religion and love such discussions, and they are a quarter of the world’s population 3. Hosting clown personalities such as the apostate Prophet .. Such people do not add value to the channel because they are ignorant and lie, and Christians and Muslims know this. It is better to host personalities who have weight in the heavenly religions and academics, and leave fools
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص if he hosts only academics then he will have to release a video every couple of months. Look how small the list of non-Muslim academics on Islam there is: Marijn van Putten, Hythem Sidky, Shady Nasser, Stephen Shoemaker, Sean Anthony, Robert Hoyland and Fred Donner - that's it
Shia Muslims, who technically started to emerge after the martyrdom of Al-Hussein in late 600's, had every incentive to expose those alleged conspiracies to have a political edge. In Shia literature there are some extremely different views on Islam compared to the mainstream literature, so much so they would be persecuted for them, but even here there is no mention of any of the theories you speak of. When you have a consensus between two polarized parties, it strengthens the authenticity of the narrative. I would advise Dr Peter to look into the Shia literature to have a more comprehensive picture of the history, there is a huge wealth of info which is not found in the Sunni counterpart.
Early Shia Muslims were persecuted by the Umayyads for political reasons and so they don’t lose their dynasty and seat of power, after Hussains death and the revolt of Abdullah ibn Zubayr the Umayyad monarchs were very watchful over there Shia population and the persecution started happening so they don’t start another rebellion. After the death of Ali most of the caliphs didn’t really bother for religious preservation and that was the job of the scholars. Most notable Sunni scholars during that era that Muslims follow who preserved Islam as mainstream Sunni Muslims follow it today distanced themselves from the rulers and Caliphs and were even persecuted themselves i.e. Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Imam Malik, Abu Hanifa and Imam Shaf’i.
Salam, Shlomo, Shalom, Peace. Noah Family: Vedas: There Is Only One God, There Is Only One Source, There Is Only One Supply. Avesta Zoroastrian: There Is Only One Wise God, Whom Is Uncreated. Buddhist Cannon: There Is Only One God, Whom Created Good & Evil. Abraham Family: Torah [Old Testament]: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one. Gospel [New Testament]: I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me. Quran [Last Testament]: Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute, He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten, There Is None Comparable Unto God.
ALHAMDULILLAH We need a nuke war, Erick. Even now when 7.2b homonids is too much what with 10b in 2050. Be careful where you nuke, however. New York is safe as are any part of Poland, Iran, Denmark and Sweden or just Arabia.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 No hydrogen bomb though. #savemasjidilaqsanow NoThirdTempleOnMountMoriah Psalm 15 A psalm of David. 1 Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent? Who may live on your holy mountain? 2 The one whose walk is blameless, who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from their heart; 3 whose tongue utters no slander, who does no wrong to a neighbor, and casts no slur on others; 4 who despises a vile person but honors those who fear the Lord; who keeps an oath even when it hurts, and does not change their mind; 5 who lends money to the poor without interest; who does not accept a bribe against the innocent. Whoever does these things will never be shaken. Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61: فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars. (English - Shakir)
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs were Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
@@inquisitivemind007 the best body of work that I came across is from Dr. Wesley Muhammad and Ronoko Rashidi; Dr. Wesley's book Black Arabia and the African origins of Islam. Over 900 footnotes. Dr. Wesley engages primary source materials classical Arabic and biblical Hebrew just to name a few. Dr. Wesleymuhammad aka true Islam research has proven to be impeccable.
As an Arabic speaker and someone grew up reading Quran and Sira, I wish I could sit down a few hours with Mr von Sivers. The traditional story of Islam never made sense to me. Can’t wait for his book.
@@UnknownSend3r yes I am Muslim. Almost everything we know about Islam, with the exception of Quran, is written during the Abbasid era. Sirah, Hadith, Fiqh, the story of the conquests…etc, all of them. There is no question Quran is authentic because early manuscripts have been found that match the Quran we have, also there is very strong evidence in Quran that the prophet is real, although his name is very rarely mentioned but there is enough detail. But we should come to terms that everything else can very likely be fabrication during the Abbasid era
"once Christianity was forced and legislated as the official religion in the Roman Empire and all the other cults and religions were banned" is the right way to say it Mr. professor not "adopted"!
It is not forced since most of the Roman Empire were christian already from Levant, Middle East, North Africa, Mediterranean and Europe. While your Islam from its inception is invading christian lands and legislated as the official religion. People were forced to convert and Islamists treat Christians and Jews as second class citizens. Your Islam was even derived from Judaism and Christianity. Jesus was mentioned in Quran more than your self proclaimed prophet.
@ADDAM DUY HO? Christianity did not spread by sword. From first 300 years of christianity before it became the religion of the Roman Empire, it spread across all the Roman empire, Greece, Mediterranean, Caucasus, and Sassinid Empire, Arabia, to Iraq also in North African kingdoms to Ethiopia. It spread naturally because christians have this habit of telling others of their faith. It wasn't imposed or "spread by sword". During the time of Constantine, he officially adopted it as the religion of Roman Empire since christianity was already spread across Roman Empire. Even his soldiers and Roman elites were christians already. I don't know. There's something with Jesus and christianity that made it "click" to ancient peoples. It is not spread by sword. Other religions also sprung up from christianity like the Manicheans and even Islam. Actually if you study Islam, it actually copied christian doctrines, stories and Jewish practices and rituals. All prophets and Jesus were claimed by Islam also. Christianity spread all over Baltic, Nordic, Slavic, Caucasus, Hungary, Poland NATURALLY, not because they were forced. Even the Germanic tribes adopted Christianity after they conquered West Roman Empire. They were not force. Almost all Europe, Mediterranean, Caucasus, to Levant to Arabia to Iraq North Africa to Ethiopia,even in Sassinid Empire christianity was spread naturally not by forced. The only time the Christian kingdoms colonized was in 15th century. But they were not the only peoples who wanted to widen their empires, even the Mongols invaded other lands and the musulmans. And of course, Islam spread by sword with Muhammad's example. He waged war against Arabian Jews, christians and pagans. Then other muslims continue their military conquest to spread their religion and subjugate other lands specially christian lands.
Let's not be deceived for that is the problem with deception. We have been warned and it would be best to heed the warning. We fight a spiritual battle and whether you believe or not in the one true God. There are many so called gods and so called lords. These have existed from the beginning of the fall. The question is do you believe in the truth. For surely God, the God of Abraham, lsaac, and Jacob has revealed Himself. And in times passed has spoken to the fathers at various times and ij n various ways through the prophets. In these last days has spoken to all seeking the truth, in a son, his son, Yahshua Messiah. That's the truth of the matter. God surely created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the fountains of the deep. And surely God is Spirit for it is the Spirit who gives life. YHWH is the one true God and has chosen to reveal Himself through His Son. God placed him on the altar of sacrifice to reconcile us back to Himself. How is sin atoned for and why do we die? Ask yourselves the question. The question that matters. For truly, truly, when you know the truth, the truth will set you free. HalleluYah.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs were Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
Ive been involved in Art all my life and idealized the Ayia Sophia(Im Greek).Peter Von Sivers just educated me on the picture of Christ.WOW Im blown away .Thank the both of you VERY MUCH!
Canadian linguist and Middle Easterner Robert Kerr sheds new light on the origins of Islam. According to his research, the alphabet used in the oldest known manuscripts of the Quran shows rather than the founding book of Islam appeared in the area currently covered by Jordan, Syria and Iraq and not in Mecca or Medina. Research Phd Robert Martin Kerr The Department of Archaeology & Classical Studiesis pleased to present a lecture by: Dr. Robert Kerr The historical origins of Islam: Some archaeological and linguistic remarks ”
Thanks to you and another petson commenting I researched him. He has some awesome publications and lectures. I saw one in French, I had to use google translator. Does he speak English? Do you know?
@@andanandan6061 He's not a prophet. Quran is just a copy of early christian sects beliefs as well as Jewish practices. Also arab paganism like the black stone.
BTW, Derek, there were still Jewish Christians (i.e., Mar Thoma or St. Thomas Syriac Christians) practicing their faith in India when the Portuguese arrived there in the 1490's, and Ethiopic Christianity is a form of (or has many elements remaining from) ancient Jewish Christianity.
Ethiopian Christians were also helped by the Portuguese (D. Cristovão da Gama, who died there in battle) while defending their country againt the attacks of islamites (Ahmed Gragn, who was beaten and died). Then they tried to convert them to catholicism to no avail. But they saved Christianity thete nowadays always under attack again.
Mecca didnot exist because it is not recorded in history of the relevant time. Do you suggest that every settlement on earth was recorded in history of 610 AD?
The Google algorithm is working exceptionally well today. A couple of minutes ago I got a DeSantis ad while watching David Pakman and now I get a Islamic fund raising ad here.
I find it interesting that the 550s theological divide concentrated on the nature of Jesus's divinity during a time of plague. One might assume that plague would have created more focus on the "end times hysteria" and the second coming.
I agree with you - I think the plague and then Persians capturing the Holy Cross ✝️ from Jerusalem which was then restored by Heraclius should have played a part in everyone believing that the end of the 🌎 was going to happen.
@@From305toSH Yes, but apocalypticism was also a feature of the Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, and they presumably got it from Zoroastrianism. (The Germanic myths also had Ragnaroc, when Balder would return from Valhalla and raise brave warriors from the dead.
One of the most impressive episodes in the MythVision series. If I were teaching Early Medieval History or the History of Islam -- I've done both -- I would draw on this for basic concepts. I would probably argue the case that understanding Syria in the 7th century for is more for present-day students than England and France in the same period.
For me it's quite interesting that Dr. Von Sivers came to UCLA in 1968. I was also there at that time. My major was Chemistry but I also had classes in German which was required for my major. The one history class I took was Western Civilization. It was taught by Prof. Hoxie. He was very popular and his lectures were very entertaining.
I've been slowly reading my way through the Koran but the Cave immediately struck me as astrological when I read it, you've got a cave, seven sleepers, and dog outside, all well known astrological symbols and a statement that these are the signs that will only be understood when the end of the world comes. Honestly can't imagine why anyone would think it was anything other than a description of what it is in sky that they've based the prophecy of the end of the world on.
The 7 sleepers of Ephesus is a Christian Syrian legend appropriated by the Koran and all the legend was trying to point out that Christian truth will ultimately triumph over paganism and the persecuting pagan emperors.
@@albertlouisseize. thanks for sharing the knowledge. Thanks to RUclips and other social media platforms we are now finding very fascinating findings about Islamic history and it’s origins which seems to be more plausible compared to the traditional Islamic beliefs.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
How you study Islam without ever touching or reading the book of the Muslims themselves which is known as the Quran. Read the book if you claim to do research.
Surah al-Isra' 88. Say, “If humankind and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Quran, they could never produce the like of it, even if they supported one another.” QURAN.
i enjoy your show, Derek, but do you have an actual podcast feed? I hate using youtube for long form programming and an rss feed of the audio would be much easier for me to access and support.
So Mecca did not exist until 692 CE. Main reasons for this fact are: 1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels) 2) Mecca is not shown on any map at that time or even previously 3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m) 4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700 5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?
It is better for you to watch the biography of the Prophet by Sheikh Othman bin Al-Farouq and Sheikh Mufti mink, because it will depend on what we believe in our historical sources that are documented by a series of narrators and eyewitnesses, and they are more reliable than history books that do not depend on the difficult requirements that Muslims adhere to to ensure their authenticity The first and last opinion is yours
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص At this point I'm not even convinced that Muhammad even existed, an organic evolution of the religion like Dr Sivers proposes could lead to something like Arab christians having their own pope, or even still more plausible, Mohammad is actually the name of the holy spirit who gave them the revelation of the true nature of Jesus and not of a person (Jesus I'm also not convinced he existed outside of literature, and the holy spirit I don't believe exists )
@@soukai Dear Qur’an and the Sunnah that we have before us is a continuous and uninterrupted chain of narrators even the companions of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and they are eyewitnesses + the lineage of the Prophet Muhammad is known and his descendants have a tree that goes back to Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, cousin of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and known is the ancestral tree of every child from the lineage of the family of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh + the tomb of the Prophet Muhammad in the Prophet’s Mosque and next to it are the tombs of his two companions Abu Bakr al-Siddiq and Omar Ibn al-Khattab and this is documented in history books and the tomb of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his two friends are protected from the Saudi soldiers inside the Prophet’s Mosque There are other guides if you like
@@brotherben4357 My dear, the question is, what is the method and criteria that prove your historical novel, the Bible, or anything else? The Arab Muslims set strong requirements to prove the authenticity of the historical narratives. This is something that is academically respected Many history books that you read without a chain of narrators connected to make sure of their credibility. This is the least that can be a criterion for the credibility of these historical references. The Biography of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh The criteria are strong, such as the requirement of trustworthy eyewitnesses for an uninterrupted sequence of narrators, the study of each narrator, his credibility, the extent of his knowledge and his commentary, and whether the narrators lived in the same time, etc.. Therefore, Muslims were able to preserve the Prophet’s hadith from distortion after the anti-Islam tried to do so
I'm only half way through this, but it's so nice that you have in the Professor someone who breaks free from the straightjacket of the "Meccan origin" which so inhibits understanding of the conquest's beginnings. I eagerly await the release of Prof. Von Sivers' book.
@@jojofreelancerkup7501 , well i'm glad you did. Marijn Van Putten and Sean Anthony vociferously oppose the idea that Petra was the ur-Mecca. But it is important that people hear the the other side too. The Professor says this identity can't be proven, but think otherwise. The new archaeological picture of 7th century Petra is going to turn common assumptions upside down. And the presence of "ar-Raqim" in the Qur'an and its specific context is hugely significant, especially since the entire Muslim exegetical tradition somehow "forgot" the meaning of this toponym.
@@davidmontoute2074 Petra was deserted from 550. There is zero historical evidence for Petra after this date. This 'scholar' also has to explain why all earliest Quranic manuscripts are in the Hijazi dialect! Marijn van Putten has proven this. He also has to explain how all the competing muslim groups and all surrounding Christians and other groups never recorded a major shift. This Petra theiry is absolutely ridiculous. A scholar shouldn't speculate with zero evidence. Hebis clearly working to a conclusion instead of evidence.
@@alonzoharris6730 No. You are seriously behind the times with your ideas on Petra chronology. It is listed as the first city of palaestina tertia in the Descriptio orbis Romani, written in the first decade of the 7th century. At around this same time, it is mentioned in the Pratum Spirituale by John Moschus. We know that the 550 earthquake made no material difference to Petra, or at least, nothing like the effect that the 363 earthquake had. Re: "He also has to explain how all the competing muslim groups and all surrounding Christians...never recorded a major shift." You're assuming an awful lot in that statement. Firstly, the cultic location of Muhammad's group was certainly sidelined during the Sufyanid period. So it was not a universal site for all of the Mu'minun. The Sufyanids instead focused on Jerusalem, as did Abd el-Malik. Secondly, the qibla change IS mentioned by numerous Muslim sources, even long after it occurred. Q 142-145 also discusses this, verses that were surely added during teh Marwanid period.
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2صThanks, Abdallah. But you should know that using Google Earth to determine qibla is precisely what King, Anthony, Van Putten etc reproach dan Gibson for. The argument is that nobody back then determined qibla using flat maps, but by a variety of folkloric methods (prior to Abassid times). Also, Abdel Majid az-Zindani is simply not a credible source, not by my lights anyway. In spite of all that, i don't doubt that the Sana' mosque points in the general direction of Mecca (and Petra too).
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
You following just assumption 🙃. Once you said Catholicism invented Islam .. Others say Al Batra is real Mecca... What next ? Ellon Musk invented Islam ?😂😂
@@craigthebrute7929 Donno why Christians left their thousands of cults and dominations including mormons and JW and so on, and they are very obsessed with islam
There is a book by Amin Maalouf titled 'the gardens of lighr' where he writes about the various groups springing up around the time of the fall of the Persian Empire. I believe he suggests that Islam came in as an alternative to the inhumane dominating rule of the priest caste of the Persian empire. It makes fir a very interesting read.
@@Ikhlashasib10 Did you not watch the whole video, or did you tune out when the Professor discussed conflicts between groups contributing to, or represented in, the Qur'an? Do you need me to post a timestamp?
@@bolanmoonward3483 tf who told you ppl wrote the Quran and where is his evidence to back up that statement of ppl coming together to write the Quran? 😂
@@Ikhlashasib10 Again, I ask: did you watch the video? Or are you just reacting to comments? And, are you ignorant of the development of the Qur'an? I am given to understand that Muhammad didn't write anything, but recited his "revelations". Others transcribed what he said, either concurrently, or from memory. These were later collected, and edited. There were variations, and some were left out of the "official" version.
What a story. That reminds me of a story of a man in Mexico that he managed to build a small army including some traitors, and he was able to take over Texas and California after a few battles here and there 😂
You know, it could be the case that both Von Sivers’ thesis *and* the other Islamic origin theories are right at the same time. The stories have different details, but I don’t see why they should conflict. Everything he’s saying here sounds like it would’ve been very important in setting Islam (or what would become Islam) in motion, but it still sounds compatible with a lot of the other proposed ideas.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
The same trigger happend with the Mongols and Chinese. The Chinese stopped the trading with the Mongols, the Mongols suddenly had a huge surplus of horses, humans and high need of food and products supplied traditionally from Chinese. This triggered the Mongols to fight between them - initially the Chinese strategy worked well. But by chance the Mongols managed to unite and go after the needed products in China. And after that the same forces needed to expand on and on.
Interesting how the Prof mentions Petra - Ive seen a lecture in RUclips arguing that Petra was the original location of Mecca, and how the earliest Mosques were directly facing Petra, and not the current location of Mecca now.
the original qibla(direction of worship) was changed during the lifetime of the prophet. the original direction was towards Jerusalem which if you check is the same direction of Petra from Mecca. :).
@@hassannaveed4788Hi. I saw the documentary referred to & that was the thinking of the presenter (that they faced Jerusalem) but research ruled Jerusalem out & Petra was being faced with remarkable accuracy.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
It would be important to look into life of Mohammed if Islam was a reaction from Arabs to denounce the divine nature of Jesus, why did only a single man start to spread that ideology? He was born and lived in Mecca and did travel towards Syria for trade. If it was a reaction, most instances it comes from groups of people and rarely from a single person
Since when do Islamic scholars listen to Western priests and academics regarding their history or the Islamic religion? It is better to host a Muslim sheikh next to this academic, and the public will be the judge of who has the most evidence
Hi Derek. I have noticed that there was a poem writer in pre islamic time named 'diwan umayyah ibn abi al sadd'. And that this character wrote poems that look similair like some verses in the Quran. The 7 heavens and the shooting stars. Also about Dhul-Qarnayn and the muddy spring. Do you ever heard of this and is it possible to ask it to a scholar in that degree of knowledge about poems in pre islamic time?
أمية بن ابي الصلت = umayyah ibn abi al sadd' One of the poets of the from the Thaqif tribe before Islam, and he was on monotheism, the religion of the Prophet Ibrahim, peace be upon him. There are personalities before Islam who were on the religion of Hanifia, that is, the religion of the Prophet Ibrahim, peace be upon him And some were on true Christianity before the appearance of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, such as the deacon Salman al-Farsi Only Arabs who read in pre-Islamic history, such as Sheikh Hassan Somali, Shamsi, etc., will be able to discuss these topics. The Scriptures of the Prophet Ibrahim, the Torah, the Injeel, the Psalms, etc.. They are the word of the Creator, and if there is a distortion in them, their origin is not denied. Muslims follow what the Creator has said in the Qur’an, and certainly there is what remains and is true in the other heavenly books, so there is no problem in repeating the information because the origin of the news is from the Creator.
Salam, Shlomo, Shalom, Peace. Noah Family: Vedas: There Is Only One God, There Is Only One Source, There Is Only One Supply. Avesta Zoroastrian: There Is Only One Wise God, Whom Is Uncreated. Buddhist Cannon: There Is Only One God, Whom Created Good & Evil. Abraham Family: Torah [Old Testament]: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one. Gospel [New Testament]: I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me. Quran [Last Testament]: Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute, He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten, There Is None Comparable Unto God.
1:39:36 this is a great point. Quran has no reference to contemporary events, people and places. It’s extremely strange, as if everything was deliberately removed to match the narrative that was cooked up a few centuries later.
This is really not the case. Please stop your wishful thinking, you are in denial. It is an established fact that it has not been changed since its original inception. The oldest manuscript exists in a museum somewhere and it is the same as today, word for word, letter for letter. Go and check for yourself. :)
@@hassannaveed4788Salam my brother. I was raised as a Christian and later reverted to Islam and I came to the conclusion that Islam is another interpretation of Christianity not a new religion
That is completely wrong, and some one that hasn’t read the Quran would say such a thing, many of the verses were directly referencing things that were happening at the time - also mentions a war that occurred during that time between the Persians and romans: “The Romans have been defeated in the nearest land (to the Arabian Peninsula), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious within three to nine years.... “( Quran 30:2-4) 613 the persians defeated the romams and 9 years later the romans defeated the Persians. So not only does it talk about a easily verifiable battle between the two largest empires at that time, but also states that in a few years the romans will come back and win (and shortly after that, as you know, the Persian empire is destroyed by the Muslims).
Would not be worth it. All you would get is biased fake information that fits with the narrative of the dogma. To understand the historical development of regions you don't speak to religious people you look to science.
Hard to find. Like Prof. Hossein Nasr, they try to play in two incompatible fields. They say they are Scholars (because they work in colleges) but , at the same time, assume they are believers and accuse "western science" of "colonialism", "hidden agenda" and other awful things. Incompatible and paradoxal.
Thank you for a very interesting episode. I had the automatic subtitles/ caption on. At the end of the episode, according to the cations, you said in your very own dramatic fashion, WE ARE .... MYTH FISHING.
1:29:15 Surah Fath 48 only goes up to 29 verses not 78. Lies upon lies also verse 4 is speaking about an incident where the Muslims were in Jihad not peace. What kind of academic is this where he doesn't even do simple research? A quick Google search would tell you how many verses in Surah 48, this man is ruining his credibility by blatantly lying through out this video
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
Unfortunately, you(host) and the author dishonest, You carefully chose your subjects and guests, 1--The author said "Mushrikin" in the Arebia before Islam are "Christians," and that's a lie because they're called "Mushrikin" because they worship idols in Macca. 2--the author said Muhammad was preaching before got the revelation, and that's a lie because He was a merchant and never read or wrote according to the Quran. 3-- The third lie was that you said that the Quran picked up the crouessification idea without proving it.
"The Christology of Islam helped shaping it" Peter von Sivers, is a novel way of looking at the origins of early Islam. But we need to account for the Judaic elements and pagan practices in early Islam.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
The jewish elements may stem from the unsuccessful attempts to gain followers under the mostly jewish tribes around Medina plus some obvious OCD-traits in Muhammad himself transforming into specific ritualism. All this (especially the mekkan revelations leaning to christiantiy and accepting Jesus as a prophet) did not work out with the jews of the arabian peninsula very well.
9:42 I was listening about early Christianity a bit ago. The thing that really separated them from everyone else was their kindness and compassion. If someone, anyone came to them hungry, even if they didn’t have enough food for them, they were given food and the Christians would fast. They always prayed for everyone, even the ones torturing and killing them. I kinda think the world has forgotten what a Christian is. And I’m not throwing shade, I don’t do that, but I don’t go around claiming what a great Christian I am either. Hypocrisy is strong in The Church, at least here in the USA.
This is really a bizarre explanation of Islam's origin. Mohammed has never been to Petra and Mecca was a major city that was well documented in history because it was the location of the Kaaba and a major tads hub. John Hammer of Centre Place (you look him up on youtube, believes that there was an early Christian sect called Ebionites who believed that Jesus was a mere man and not divine. They escaped persecution after the Nicaean creed was established as the main Christian belief. Mohammed's wife Khadija was Christian and John Hammer believes that her family had a major influence on how Mohammed believed in Jesus. Also, in the beginning of this interview, Mr. Peter Von Severs is also confused about the Christians in Syria and Iraq. In the latter, there was an Arab tribe that aligned itself with Persia called Almanazerah (bani Munzer or the Munzer tribe) and they were pagan like the Persians. In Syria, there was a Christian tribe called ALGhassasenah (bani Ghassan) and they were Christian, and they aligned themselves with Constantinople. Also, the two biggest tribes in Arabia (Taghleb and Beker) were Christian. There were also Pagans called Majooce who were very close in worship to the Persians as well as many Jewish tribes. However, the Quran debates the Christians after they came to Mohammed and presented their beliefs. It was made clear that Jesus was a mere prophet (blasphemous are those who say that Jesus is the son of God, Blasphemous are those who say that God is one of three, Blasphemous are those who say that Jesus is God). Evidently, the pagan Arabs believed that the Christian Arabs were also Pagan because of the concept of the Trinity and told Mohammed that the Christian gods are no different than our gods and the response in the Quran is that they are using Christ just for the sake of arguing because Jesus is no more than one of God's servants. I am truly disappointed by this interview which is based on opinions instead of any historical facts.
Please bring Dr. Sivers back, and ask him: WHERE DOES HE THINK ISLAM ORIGINATED - - WAS IT AMONG THE JEWISH CHRISTIANS (not the Nestorians, nor the Miaphysites, nor the Chalcedonians)? You sort of asked him this, but he didn't give you a direct answer. I believe the answer is YES.
Well around the 1 hour and 30 minutes, the Dr made a claim of 2 contradicting verses. He said that they are both in sura 48 verses 4 and 74. There's no verse 74 in sura 48. It ends at verse 29 for God's sake.
It sounds like an interesting hypothesis. There are some gaps that seem puzzling 1. There is a large gap in the Arab sources. 2. Why the Abassids would completely re-write history, 3. Is there any archeology to suggest Mecca really was an insignificant settlement ex ante. 4. Why they would pick Mecca and 5. How the Abassids would wipe out all competing narratives (moving from Petra to Mecca seems as monumental as moving from Rome to Contantinople) I do like the approach that views Islam as a continuation of the Judeo tradition. And that does seem to be the Arab narrative. That they are the true keeper of the flame, not the Romanized version of the Judaic traditions. P.S. I'm not making a commentary on the theology, more the history. What is also puzzling for me is that a group of nomads took down two superpowers in 40 years. It's almost like the Mongol much better documented Mongol expansion.
@Siraj Haq Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect on his scrotum. Sahih al-Bukhari 278
I've just started watching so sorry if this is addressed elsewhere. Your points 1&2 could be linked. It appears that proto Islam was developing under the Umayyad as a unitarian/anti Trinitarian Christian movement (there's still Unitarian Christian sects today) with strong objections to the Trinitarianism of the West. Once the Abbasids decided on the new religion of empire it's then encumbent on them to destroy anything that may contradict it. As much writing and records are religious they would go. 3. As far as I'm aware, the first mention of Mecca is in the 8th/9th century and the first time it appears on a map of 900AD. This suggests it was not a significant settlement till the 10th century. I'm not aware of any archeology to suggest it was either. The Saudi gov have been putting up buildings for decades and not once has one been stopped because they've found archeology that could prove their religion. 4. leaders pick new capitals all the time and in strange places. Not sure that's difficult. Leaders have done it throughout history from Arkenaten in Egypt right through to the Burmese gov recently. 5. Great cities have come and gone relatively quickly. Petra was 'lost' for centuries. Macchu Picchu too. India is littered with ex capital cities of empires, now reduced to small villages. I'm not sure it's as hard as you think.
The bigger question for Islam to answer is, despite claiming Muhammad, Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali to be great kings that founded not just an empire but a religion there's literally no contemporary evidence for any of them and any that's within the next 100yrs is highly contentious. They're the greatest kings to not leave a trace.
In my view the Quran was intended as a "mystical" reinterpretation of ideas taken from Aristotle, Judaism and Christianity. When I look at list of Aristotle's works along side a list of the Surahs I see a resemblance; not necessarily in literal content, but in structure and format. There is a sort of Aristotelian logic being applied in the Surahs.
That is the problem. Prophet was unlettered and probably never heard about Aristoteles at all. Quran was revealed in 23 years while He also busy fought those Arab infidels. We must assume prophet of Islam was a well learned man who master few languanges and poetic bcz Quran He brought is master piece of classic Arabic. But again narration mentioned that He was unlettered guy.
@@andanandan6061 in fact a lot of Arabs dispute the quranic language there are many of linguistic/clerical errors, but because quranic Arabic is held as a standard those errors are turned into the standard. Also it is assumed that your prophet was illiterate, but it was very uncommon for a charismatic merchant from Mecca, the most important trading city in southern Arabia to be completely illiterate. Plus verse in the quran relates to those that don’t know their books as illiterate. Also illiteracy doesn’t prevent you from copying the “structure & the format” app you need is a pair of eyes for that 🙂. When you start reading it and breaking it down it’s far from so called “miracle”.
@@Ange0967 the people who knew him accepted Islam .They knew he was unlettered,if he was a history scholar and made up a new religion they would have called BS on him .
@ Абу Шейх poor people accepted his message in Mecca, and Lot of people in Medina. The reason rich/ powerful people didn't want to accept his message because financial benefit they had over kaba in Mecca. jizza is just tax. everybody has to pay jizya or zakat for muslims. jizya is fixed, zakat is percentage. that mean rich non muslim paying Jizya is beter then zakat . for the poor zakat is beter financial .
Dr. Von Sivers unfortunately mischaracterized the belief of the miaphysites. They did not believe that Jesus was solely divine, rather that he had a single united human/divine nature after the incarnation. Incredible that even in academia this misunderstanding still persists.
EDIT: Ignore this comment. "Miaphysitism is the Christological doctrine that Jesus Christ had only one divine nature after the union of the divine and human in the Incarnation." (Wikipedia) And that is basically what Dr. von Sivers said at 31:57.
@Dharma Defender Interesting. I double checked with an ecumenical lexicon at my disposal and it basically says the same as Wikipedia. So who to trust on this? And who claims authority to define it?
@Dharma Defender Fascinating. Thank you very much for your explanation and the book recommendation. (Maybe you could try and edit the Wikipedia article, even though that platform is a dumpster fire and in the least cases reliable in the slightest.) Edit: It looks like YT ghosted your comment. I could read it in my notifications however. Just letting you know. That algorithm is brutal...
@Dharma Defender It is especially complicated for someone like me (who isn't a Christian, who was raised an atheist, and who mostly only cares about European paganism and Dharmic philosophies). Thanks again for your input!
After most people left worshipping. God sent a Prophet Mohammad again with the message. The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
Incredible Derek! What a great video I can see a few Muslims in the comments going through the denial and coping stage but eventually they will have to accept the facts about the Quran and Islam.
What were the facts? He just gave us a theory without any evidence but just speculation. The crucifixion is only mention in one verse in the Quran and in passing; within the contexts of the rebellious history of the Israelite's.
@@Nazam44 Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect on his scrotum. Sahih al-Bukhari 278
@@Nazam44 As a fan of evidence just how much of the Standard Islamic Narrative is evidenced. And how clear and coherent is what is presented. Apply a higher standard to SIN and you'll see just how gullible you have been.
There’s knowing something…and then there’s knowing how to explain something. Some people do not do a very good job of explaining what they know…and it’s painful to listen to.
@Dharma Defender St Mark's in Venice is a byzantine style church as Venice was once a client state of the Byzantine empire but for stunning Byzantine mosaics you have to visit the churches in Ravenna a bit further south of Venice -it was the seat of the Byzantine exarchate when a lot of Italy was reconquered by Justinian from the Goths.
These "Mohamed didn't exist" theories are fantastic and complicated. The reason why the Quran was compiled later, and why Makkah was not mentioned earlier, is because the society needs to reach a level sophistication in order to have books, written records and bureaucracy. The Arab society simply wasn't at that level at the time of Mohammad. The reason why Mohammed probably existed is because his history describes the most normal dude and not someone who is ten feet tall and shoots lasers out of his eyes. Mohammed's biography is full of mundane details like who me married and when, who are members of his family, when he made what voyage, and so on.
That was a brilliant lecture, Dr Siver was Scholarly, wise and very charming. I am currently exploring what it is to be a Muslim in modern Britain and part of that research led to this. I have been following this idea that there is something amiss in the Islamic story and Dr Sivers research was fascinating. I was at the dome of the rock last year and felt it’s historic and religious impact, the shine is utterly beautiful. What I thought was so charming was that he ended saying that Islam as a faith should not be seen as a religion of conquest and that the oneness of God, being spiritually connected is what it’s all about. I’ve seen a lot of RUclips titles that, I think have negative intentions so this has been fascinating and enlightening and I’ll be listening to other stuff in the series. ✌🏾 ❤️
I do not understand at all his argument surrounding the Trisagion. The problem with the hymn wasn't that it said God was crucified, but that the Chalcedonian form was clearly addressed to the Trinity (the Father is "Holy God," the Son is "Holy Mighty," the Holy Spirit is "Holy Immortal") while the Miaphysite form was clearly addressed to Jesus ("who was crucified for us"). The "one nature" doctrine of the Miaphysites was feared to lead into either Tritheism or Modalism, and this addition to the hymn was seen by the Chalcedonians as confirming that the Miaphysites are indeed Modalists. This was the issue, not whether God died on the cross or not (both Chalcedonians and Miaphysites thought so).
Muslims never said that Islam began with Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Islam started with the first human Prophet Adam pbuh. Muslim too believes in Prophet Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets of God that always conveyed the same message with Prophet Muhammad pbuh believe and worship in only The One and True God in Arabic that is Allah. This makes Jesus, Moses, Abraham and all the other Prophets are actually Muslims because they submit to Allah. Prophet Muhammad pbuh is just the one who completed the guidance from Allah to humanity.
@@johncarroll772Yeah and no. As far as i know, Islam dislikes jews for their people getting all other revelations. Like christianity, Islam presents humanity as God's chosen, not a paticular person or group as other prophets came to other places and tought. This expands propehts into buddah and other such people. So in the rhetoric, there is no favourites but great prophets were from jews minus last. Take from that what you will.
49:10 "The Quran was not clear on the divinity of Jesus". Maybe not in the verse Peter referenced, but the Quran - in other verses - clearly points out that Jesus was only a man, and not divine with a miraculous birth, and compared it to Adam - another man born without a father or mother. Peter's misunderstanding of the Islamic position on this topic makes me think what else he misunderstood. His belief that Arabia was not pagan but christian is not historically correct. Yemen had a Jewish majority, with a christian and pagan minority, while the rest of Arabia were pagan with pockets of jews and christians here and there. One must ask, if Mecca - a central point to traveling caravans - did not exist until the rise of Islam, then how did Muslims gain power and influence over the trade routes?? And the birth of the Islamic faith could not have happened without the pre-existence of Mecca to that era. Im sorry, there's much to Peter's history lessons that are simply not historical, regardless whether he believes the theology, or not.
16:19 yes obviously (according to the mythology) Jesus was crucified by Roman hands. But the gospels specifically mention how the Romans didn't want to do this but it was done from Jewish pressure. And it even says in the gospels that the Jews said "let his blood be on our hands". So they are considered to blameworthy
Yes this has been largely ignored. Even the vaitican at one point said jews were not responsible. I wonder if this is due to zionist power in world geo politics.
I got the same ad and before that I got a DeSantis ad while watching David Pakman. I almost never see ad's in RUclips that correspond to my views and I suspect that it is because views based on reason don't have to be sold.
I am sorry gentlemen but you ignored the older history. The trinity started with the Sumerians. There was one goddess 'El' or 'Al' who introduced the ten commandments.. not to kill not to steel and so on in order to help people to live in large cities for the first time in history. She was then associated with the cow as the saviour of humanity when the draught his the area. She was associated with moon as it had the same life history of a woman period and her son became a god later. Then the husband 'Ba el' became a god as city life and agriculture required muscles. So the trinity started with the Sumerians so was the ten commandments. What is more they were called 'mulem' believe it or not. So thins didn't start with Moses or Ibraham or Jesus and Mohammed at the end.
I m grateful to Almighty and Muhammad pbuh for revealing and educating us the Quran, respectively, which clarified the distortions in the history mainly because people seemed to have lost the track of the original bible and articulated their own versions defying the reality as the process was identified by Danial Goleman - how does the brain defies.
I learned Arabic in order to read the Quran. Messy, backtracks, inconsistent. Then read Hadith, studied the history, a religion out of pure imagination that took form 300 years after Mohammed's death.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
BTW you guys covered a lot more than his BYU lecture. Your insight and input really contributed and complimented the amount of information packed into this very short 2hr interview. I hope you interview Peter again. And don't hesitate to make the interview longer!
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...." How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
@@inquisitivemind007 It's just a finding. His findings doesn't challenge the legacy of Islam. He just speaks about its origin. I don't see a need for a challenge. In America you can believe in what evert you want to. But we expect everone to be open to the evidence. I've heard this finding before by other professors. I found this guy in order to verify other researchers. Neither challenged the legacy. They just speak of the origins. And they both seem to concur. And so you know. I doubt any of us would reject any evidence that proves the stories in the Koran are true if the research is thorough. And in my opnion.... since the stories in thre Koran are more recent, I believe they to be more historically accurate than older religions.
9:40 Pagans in Arabia followed either the Nabatean pantheon in the north western regions or the Yemeni pantheon of the south western region. East Arabia had their own theology with manichaean and Zoroastrian elements... The Jesus figure was looming large over the populations of Levant and North West Arabia.
Salam, Shlomo, Shalom, Peace. Noah Family: Vedas: There Is Only One God, There Is Only One Source, There Is Only One Supply. Avesta Zoroastrian: There Is Only One Wise God, Whom Is Uncreated. Buddhist Cannon: There Is Only One God, Whom Created Good & Evil. Abraham Family: Torah [Old Testament]: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one. Gospel [New Testament]: I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me. Quran [Last Testament]: Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute, He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten, There Is None Comparable Unto God.
His point about the Umayyads liking images doesn’t reflect on the overall opinion of Islam or Muslims, especially considering that many of the Umayyad rulers are rejected as misguided by Muslims of that time and scholars now. Many Umayyad rulers had actually killed companions of the prophet ﷺ in an attempt to change religion in their favor. Thankfully, they failed and their opinions/practices were refuted.
It is a pleasure to watch you mature as an interviewer, Derek. The best interviewers let their guests speak at length and only intervene to gently guide the conversation in order to bring the best out of their interviewee. You have learned this lesson well over the past year.
ALHAMDULILLAH
We need a nuke war, Erick. Even now when 7.2b homonids is too much what with 10b in 2050. Be careful where you nuke, however. New York is safe as are any part of Poland, Iran, Denmark and Sweden or just Arabia.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
No hydrogen bomb though.
#savemasjidilaqsanow
NoThirdTempleOnMountMoriah
Psalm 15
A psalm of David.
1 Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent?
Who may live on your holy mountain?
2 The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
3 whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others;
4 who despises a vile person
but honors those who fear the Lord;
who keeps an oath even when it hurts,
and does not change their mind;
5 who lends money to the poor without interest;
who does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
Whoever does these things
will never be shaken.
Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61:
فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ
But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.
(English - Shakir)
Ye
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
Wow Derek! It is such a privilege to have access to world class academics like Peter Von Sivers for free on RUclips. Just extraordinary - thank you so much 🙏☺️
Free for us. It’s not free for Derek. 😂
@@brotherben4357 Yo - that’s why I’m thanking him 😉😊
ALHAMDULILLAH
We need a nuke war, Erick. Even now when 7.2b homonids is too much what with 10b in 2050. Be careful where you nuke, however. New York is safe as are any part of Poland, Iran, Denmark and Sweden or just Arabia.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
No hydrogen bomb though.
#savemasjidilaqsanow
NoThirdTempleOnMountMoriah
Psalm 15
A psalm of David.
1 Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent?
Who may live on your holy mountain?
2 The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
3 whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others;
4 who despises a vile person
but honors those who fear the Lord;
who keeps an oath even when it hurts,
and does not change their mind;
5 who lends money to the poor without interest;
who does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
Whoever does these things
will never be shaken.
Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61:
فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ
But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.
(English - Shakir)
It shoudn`t be a priviledge. Scholars are emplyed by state funded universities. Therefore there should be no pay wall to their findings. That doesn't mean that scholars are like slaves to the public, but a sane society schould be organized in a way that ensures both freedom of study for the scholars and free access for the public.
No Arabs invited? Just foreigners who cannot speak Arabic and have never lived with Arabs? The Arabs have their annals too and everyone has a different story.
I found this difficult to listen to. It reminds me of those fundamentalist christian talks .
Derek, your smile when you're getting your nerd on is so vibrant and full of wonder. I'm so glad to be nerding out with you all. 💚
Someone has a crush. ❤
His paper “Islamic Origins: Anti-Theospachism and Trisagion in the near east in the early 600s.” is very interesting, relevant to this discussion and available on his academia page. I would high recommend it! Only 4 pages but dense with well sourced information
Can you comment the link here?
@@horseradishpower9947
There is nothing academic about his channel. He is a Christian missionary with the most absurd claims using Luxenburg who is not an academic.
@@alonzoharris6730 his channel is academic and he is not a Christian missionary.
He debunks all of your made up claims. The truth of Islam is known. There is nothing you Muhammadans can do to censor it. Slandering others will not help your cause.
@@23498cna
He doesn't even have a methodology. He uses Luxenburg who is not an academic as his biggest source.
He is an absolute clown. He couldn't answer any of my refutations.
He also refused to explain his methodology.
@@alonzoharris6730 He uses many sources not just Luxemberg. Apart from Thomas,
Every single scholar that debunks Islam , Patricia Chrone, Thomas Holland, etc for you are not good because they are not Islamic. Only Muhammadans should be listened to. Give me a break.
You are part of a big cult. I do not know how long it will take you to wake up.
I think the Arabs simply needed a religious authority to legitimize their empire, which in turn required an entire mythology. So they simply invented it all, based on select bits from other religions they were familiar with, primarily Christianity and Judaism.
Yep, Islam is after the fact of the Arabian conquests. But it is an antitheopaschite diatribe with violence to make it popular among ugly, angry Arabs.
@@claesvanoldenphatt9972😂😂😂😂😂 you are funny
So what was it that United a people that barely ever had a civilisation ? Who was it that united them and what was he calling to ? Was it for treasures and worldly gains, because the leaders that came immediately after him were magnanimous in victory and were just in how they governed, what causes a people to act the way they did ?
He has an interesting theory. That Makkah could be in a different location may be possible. I have always wondered how such a desolate location could have been the powerful trading hub it is supposed to be.
However, I think his logic is flawed and he makes some very gross assumptions. The idea that Arabia was Christian just doesn't add up. We know that pagans still existed in the Roman empire in the sixth century. Pagan academies were closed and the surviving scholars fled to the Sassanids. Isn't it probable that pagan communities existed in Arabia outside the domain of the two empires?
Also, the logic just doesn't add up. If Islam started as a result of a discussion on the divine nature of Jesus, then why is the end result the absolute denial of his divinity? The Christians debating the point were at least in agreement that Jesus was the son of God and divine in some way. I don't see how u get from those points to absolute denial. If the professor discussed a group that actually held such beliefs, then maybe there is something.
The Quran devotes very little time to Christians, but loads of time to pagans and Jews. The professor attempts to present 'mushirkuun', those that join (partners to Allah), as Christians. But the Quran clearly talks to them separately from the People of the book. The dialogs here is with idolaters and Jews mostly. There is far more discussion around Moses and the interpretation of his Prophethood than any other.
This seems to me that the origin cannot be out of a christological dispute, but more of a dispute regarding the meaning of Abraham and Moses' covenants. This may actually point to a south or east Arabian location for Makkah. We know that there was a verifiable Jewish kingdom in Yemen (Arabia). Given that there were also a huge Jewish community in Babylonia writing the Talmud, these locations would seem to have that mix of jews and polytheists.
the professor completely ignores the possible influence of zoroastrianism or manicheism. We know that the zoroastrians practiced daily prayers, ritual abolution, etc. And the manicheians recognized all prophets which has similarities to the Islamic position that prophets were sent to all nations. This is in stark contrast to any Jewish or Christian position that prophethood is locked into the children of Jacob.
Lastly, there is a methodology issue here too. He seems to accept a hijrah, migration, and that verses were 'revealed' before and after this event. But that is only known thru Muslim sources, yet he doesn't trust Muslim sources. I have no problem with his skepticism, but it appears selective. Did a war party and a peace party exist? Probably, but I don't think that really shows anything. And it just makes the emphasis on Moses even weirder. BTW, Surah 9 doesn't begin with the bismillah. Scholars really don't why, but it is an intra-textual clue about the nature of that Surah.
I think the professor is too caught up in his oriental worldview to really analyze Islam in its' full geo-political context.
You've made some really good points. Lots of stuff to think about!
So with the history of Catholicism involved in statues that idolized Saints. We are just going to forget they considered Christianity as pagans🤔
As usual lazy religious folk judging texts they have no idea how to read for themselves.
Let me ask you a few questions, the translations you're dependent upon, did you critically appraise the translator's linguistic etymological conclusions? Of course you didn't, but as usual you religious folk due to your laziness will treat translations as though they are the actual Revelation.
Tell me, what does the word القرءآن mean or translate to, as I noticed your habit of romanising/transliterating certain words, which highlights the fact that you don't know the actual meaning and translation. What does the word سورة mean and translate to? I very much doubt you can competently answer, so I won't ask about your other romanised/transliterated words.
Christianity was very widely practiced religion throughout Arabia at the time. Many of the Arabic inscriptions from that time period in the region have a cross. Paganism, on the other hand, we don't have much evidence for. Latest material evidence belong to a couple of centuries before Muhammad.
@@aj7009 and what history may that be?
“There are two different types of people in the world, those who want to know, and those who want to believe.”
― Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
well said
@@inquisitivemind007 you’ve got some amazing content in your channel as well.
Hold Ur shit together and make Ur theories somewhere else
Master & slave morality
I what to know what 2 and 2 is but I believe in democracy and the rule of law.
Why doesn't this channel have like a million subscribers?* Consistently amazing quality stuff!
I think for three reasons
1. Most Christians are not interested in religion, so no matter how famous the guest is, he will not get many subscribers
2. He does not host Muslim sheikhs who have weight and knowledge, and Muslims are committed to their religion and love such discussions, and they are a quarter of the world’s population
3. Hosting clown personalities such as the apostate Prophet .. Such people do not add value to the channel because they are ignorant and lie, and Christians and Muslims know this.
It is better to host personalities who have weight in the heavenly religions and academics, and leave fools
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص One man's fool is another man's prophet.
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص And what fraction of those billion Muslims both understand English and have internet access ?
Leave fools people...!
...&
If you want to search
the correct truth of Faith...,
you ask the professional Imam
or Shaikh lil- Islam...
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص if he hosts only academics then he will have to release a video every couple of months. Look how small the list of non-Muslim academics on Islam there is: Marijn van Putten, Hythem Sidky, Shady Nasser, Stephen Shoemaker, Sean Anthony, Robert Hoyland and Fred Donner - that's it
Shia Muslims, who technically started to emerge after the martyrdom of Al-Hussein in late 600's, had every incentive to expose those alleged conspiracies to have a political edge. In Shia literature there are some extremely different views on Islam compared to the mainstream literature, so much so they would be persecuted for them, but even here there is no mention of any of the theories you speak of. When you have a consensus between two polarized parties, it strengthens the authenticity of the narrative. I would advise Dr Peter to look into the Shia literature to have a more comprehensive picture of the history, there is a huge wealth of info which is not found in the Sunni counterpart.
Sunni literature is by its nature inferior to so called mainstream Islamic literature this is the reason historians don’t consider it bro…
Early Shia Muslims were persecuted by the Umayyads for political reasons and so they don’t lose their dynasty and seat of power, after Hussains death and the revolt of Abdullah ibn Zubayr the Umayyad monarchs were very watchful over there Shia population and the persecution started happening so they don’t start another rebellion. After the death of Ali most of the caliphs didn’t really bother for religious preservation and that was the job of the scholars. Most notable Sunni scholars during that era that Muslims follow who preserved Islam as mainstream Sunni Muslims follow it today distanced themselves from the rulers and Caliphs and were even persecuted themselves i.e. Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Imam Malik, Abu Hanifa and Imam Shaf’i.
Shia's ain't got no early sources and the later one's they do entirely demolishes shia theology that later shaped.
Didn't a Jew named ibn Saba start shiaism from a theological perspective?
Salam, Shlomo, Shalom, Peace.
Noah Family:
Vedas:
There Is Only One God,
There Is Only One Source,
There Is Only One Supply.
Avesta Zoroastrian:
There Is Only One Wise God,
Whom Is Uncreated.
Buddhist Cannon:
There Is Only One God,
Whom Created Good & Evil.
Abraham Family:
Torah [Old Testament]:
The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Gospel [New Testament]:
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.
Quran [Last Testament]:
Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute,
He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten,
There Is None Comparable Unto God.
It's amazing how you lure such top notch scholars to your show
ALHAMDULILLAH
We need a nuke war, Erick. Even now when 7.2b homonids is too much what with 10b in 2050. Be careful where you nuke, however. New York is safe as are any part of Poland, Iran, Denmark and Sweden or just Arabia.🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
No hydrogen bomb though.
#savemasjidilaqsanow
NoThirdTempleOnMountMoriah
Psalm 15
A psalm of David.
1 Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent?
Who may live on your holy mountain?
2 The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
3 whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others;
4 who despises a vile person
but honors those who fear the Lord;
who keeps an oath even when it hurts,
and does not change their mind;
5 who lends money to the poor without interest;
who does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
Whoever does these things
will never be shaken.
Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 61:
فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ
But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.
(English - Shakir)
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs were Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
@@inquisitivemind007 the best body of work that I came across is from Dr. Wesley Muhammad and Ronoko Rashidi; Dr. Wesley's book Black Arabia and the African origins of Islam. Over 900 footnotes. Dr. Wesley engages primary source materials classical Arabic and biblical Hebrew just to name a few. Dr. Wesleymuhammad aka true Islam research has proven to be impeccable.
@@hiramabiff773 where can i read the book for free?
@@krisc3371
Gm; brother I wish I knew. Dr. Wesley Muhammad's body of work is well worth the investment
As an Arabic speaker and someone grew up reading Quran and Sira, I wish I could sit down a few hours with Mr von Sivers. The traditional story of Islam never made sense to me.
Can’t wait for his book.
Are you Muslim ? Also, what is it that doesn’t make sense about the origin of Islam ?
@@UnknownSend3r yes I am Muslim. Almost everything we know about Islam, with the exception of Quran, is written during the Abbasid era. Sirah, Hadith, Fiqh, the story of the conquests…etc, all of them.
There is no question Quran is authentic because early manuscripts have been found that match the Quran we have, also there is very strong evidence in Quran that the prophet is real, although his name is very rarely mentioned but there is enough detail.
But we should come to terms that everything else can very likely be fabrication during the Abbasid era
@@AJayQDRwatch the video
the truth about Islam's origins by Jay Smith 🙏🏻
It's amazing how much work goes into founding a religion. All the little details that have to be thought of. It's like writing computer software.
or science fiction ! L.Ron Hubbard, Frank Herbert, Phillip Jose Farmer ...
"once Christianity was forced and legislated as the official religion in the Roman Empire and all the other cults and religions were banned" is the right way to say it Mr. professor not "adopted"!
Good point.
It is not forced since most of the Roman Empire were christian already from Levant, Middle East, North Africa, Mediterranean and Europe. While your Islam from its inception is invading christian lands and legislated as the official religion. People were forced to convert and Islamists treat Christians and Jews as second class citizens. Your Islam was even derived from Judaism and Christianity. Jesus was mentioned in Quran more than your self proclaimed prophet.
@ADDAM DUY HO? Christianity did not spread by sword. From first 300 years of christianity before it became the religion of the Roman Empire, it spread across all the Roman empire, Greece, Mediterranean, Caucasus, and Sassinid Empire, Arabia, to Iraq also in North African kingdoms to Ethiopia. It spread naturally because christians have this habit of telling others of their faith. It wasn't imposed or "spread by sword". During the time of Constantine, he officially adopted it as the religion of Roman Empire since christianity was already spread across Roman Empire. Even his soldiers and Roman elites were christians already. I don't know. There's something with Jesus and christianity that made it "click" to ancient peoples. It is not spread by sword. Other religions also sprung up from christianity like the Manicheans and even Islam. Actually if you study Islam, it actually copied christian doctrines, stories and Jewish practices and rituals. All prophets and Jesus were claimed by Islam also. Christianity spread all over Baltic, Nordic, Slavic, Caucasus, Hungary, Poland NATURALLY, not because they were forced. Even the Germanic tribes adopted Christianity after they conquered West Roman Empire. They were not force. Almost all Europe, Mediterranean, Caucasus, to Levant to Arabia to Iraq North Africa to Ethiopia,even in Sassinid Empire christianity was spread naturally not by forced.
The only time the Christian kingdoms colonized was in 15th century. But they were not the only peoples who wanted to widen their empires, even the Mongols invaded other lands and the musulmans. And of course, Islam spread by sword with Muhammad's example. He waged war against Arabian Jews, christians and pagans. Then other muslims continue their military conquest to spread their religion and subjugate other lands specially christian lands.
Let's not be deceived for that is the problem with deception. We have been warned and it would be best to heed the warning. We fight a spiritual battle and whether you believe or not in the one true God. There are many so called gods and so called lords. These have existed from the beginning of the fall. The question is do you believe in the truth. For surely God, the God of Abraham, lsaac, and Jacob has revealed Himself. And in times passed has spoken to the fathers at various times and ij n various ways through the prophets. In these last days has spoken to all seeking the truth, in a son, his son, Yahshua Messiah. That's the truth of the matter. God surely created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the fountains of the deep. And surely God is Spirit for it is the Spirit who gives life. YHWH is the one true God and has chosen to reveal Himself through His Son. God placed him on the altar of sacrifice to reconcile us back to Himself. How is sin atoned for and why do we die? Ask yourselves the question. The question that matters. For truly, truly, when you know the truth, the truth will set you free. HalleluYah.
Quality content as usual! Your channel is the hub of serious religious scholarship on youtube
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs were Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
Yes, For SURE!. This is really important information that actually can be a "Game changer" when it comes to Religion as such
So glad this channel exists, tons of amazing content you can't find elsewhere
Just Lies.
Ive been involved in Art all my life and idealized the Ayia Sophia(Im Greek).Peter Von Sivers just educated me on the picture of Christ.WOW Im blown away .Thank the both of you VERY MUCH!
Canadian linguist and Middle Easterner Robert Kerr sheds new light
on the origins of Islam. According to his research, the alphabet used in the
oldest known manuscripts of the Quran shows rather than the founding book of
Islam appeared in the area currently covered by Jordan, Syria and Iraq
and not in Mecca or Medina.
Research Phd Robert Martin Kerr
The Department of Archaeology & Classical Studiesis pleased to present a lecture by:
Dr. Robert Kerr
The historical origins of Islam: Some archaeological and linguistic remarks
”
Thanks to you and another petson commenting I researched him.
He has some awesome publications and lectures.
I saw one in French, I had to use google translator.
Does he speak English? Do you know?
In the discussions he showed about Hira as location which is false, it is the name of the mountain.
@@theintuitivetruth Hira is the name of the cave where prophet got his 1st revelation. The Mountain is Jabal nur
@@andanandan6061 He's not a prophet. Quran is just a copy of early christian sects beliefs as well as Jewish practices. Also arab paganism like the black stone.
That's a big lies, after the death of the Profet Muhammad syrian and the surrounding were still Christian domination.
And Islam was born in Mecca.
BTW, Derek, there were still Jewish Christians (i.e., Mar Thoma or St. Thomas Syriac Christians) practicing their faith in India when the Portuguese arrived there in the 1490's, and Ethiopic Christianity is a form of (or has many elements remaining from) ancient Jewish Christianity.
Ethiopian Christians were also helped by the Portuguese (D. Cristovão da Gama, who died there in battle) while defending their country againt the attacks of islamites (Ahmed Gragn, who was beaten and died). Then they tried to convert them to catholicism to no avail. But they saved Christianity thete nowadays always under attack again.
@@rukk_tx5285 I'm so glad they failed to convert the Ethiopians to Catholicism. That would have been a terrible tragedy.
Mecca didnot exist because it is not recorded in history of the relevant time. Do you suggest that every settlement on earth was recorded in history of 610 AD?
The Google algorithm is working exceptionally well today. A couple of minutes ago I got a DeSantis ad while watching David Pakman and now I get a Islamic fund raising ad here.
Nice! They're finding Derek's videos😂
This is Excellent. Dr Sivers is a treasure. Is there anything more beautiful than a wise elder sharing his knowledge ?
I haven't found it.
I find it interesting that the 550s theological divide concentrated on the nature of Jesus's divinity during a time of plague. One might assume that plague would have created more focus on the "end times hysteria" and the second coming.
I agree with you - I think the plague and then Persians capturing the Holy Cross ✝️ from Jerusalem which was then restored by Heraclius should have played a part in everyone believing that the end of the 🌎 was going to happen.
Well wasn't early Christianity essentially an apocalyptic sect of Judaism?
@@From305toSH Yes, but apocalypticism was also a feature of the Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, and they presumably got it from Zoroastrianism. (The Germanic myths also had Ragnaroc, when Balder would return from Valhalla and raise brave warriors from the dead.
One of the most impressive episodes in the MythVision series. If I were teaching Early Medieval History or the History of Islam -- I've done both -- I would draw on this for basic concepts. I would probably argue the case that understanding Syria in the 7th century for is more for present-day students than England and France in the same period.
His most videos are history + fantasy... He should learn arabic and then study origins of islam
I've thought for years Islam was a "heretical" branch of Christianity.
For me it's quite interesting that Dr. Von Sivers came to UCLA in 1968. I was also there at that time. My major was Chemistry but I also had classes in German which was required for my major. The one history class I took was Western Civilization. It was taught by Prof. Hoxie. He was very popular and his lectures were very entertaining.
“In the shadow of the sword” is a good book that also explores Islam’s origins.
I've been slowly reading my way through the Koran but the Cave immediately struck me as astrological when I read it, you've got a cave, seven sleepers, and dog outside, all well known astrological symbols and a statement that these are the signs that will only be understood when the end of the world comes. Honestly can't imagine why anyone would think it was anything other than a description of what it is in sky that they've based the prophecy of the end of the world on.
This was a former text entitled The Seven Sleepers of Ephesus.
As for the cave, it comes from Sabeism, together with the la ilaha ilahu..formula.
The 7 sleepers of Ephesus is a Christian Syrian legend appropriated by the Koran and all the legend was trying to point out that Christian truth will ultimately triumph over paganism and the persecuting pagan emperors.
@@kaloarepo288 Exactly ,but it has become the 18tth surat of the Koran and gets recited every friday.
@@albertlouisseize. thanks for sharing the knowledge. Thanks to RUclips and other social media platforms we are now finding very fascinating findings about Islamic history and it’s origins which seems to be more plausible compared to the traditional Islamic beliefs.
Could you elaborate?
Wow that was absolutely fantastic. Thank you Derek and Dr Sivers 🙂
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
How you study Islam without ever touching or reading the book of the Muslims themselves which is known as the Quran. Read the book if you claim to do research.
I'm sure it was also read but a Scholar must find context, make lexical analisys, hermeneutics. The same was applied to other traditions.
Surah al-Isra'
88. Say, “If humankind and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Quran, they could never produce the like of it, even if they supported one another.”
QURAN.
i enjoy your show, Derek, but do you have an actual podcast feed? I hate using youtube for long form programming and an rss feed of the audio would be much easier for me to access and support.
So Mecca did not exist until 692 CE.
Main reasons for this fact are:
1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels)
2) Mecca is not shown on any map at that time or even previously
3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m)
4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700
5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?
Can't wait to read Dr Sivers book, his lecture about the political background of Islamic origins is excellent!
It is better for you to watch the biography of the Prophet by Sheikh Othman bin Al-Farouq and Sheikh Mufti mink, because it will depend on what we believe in our historical sources that are documented by a series of narrators and eyewitnesses, and they are more reliable than history books that do not depend on the difficult requirements that Muslims adhere to to ensure their authenticity
The first and last opinion is yours
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص I feel like you think the Islamic sources are very reliable and unbiased.
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص At this point I'm not even convinced that Muhammad even existed, an organic evolution of the religion like Dr Sivers proposes could lead to something like Arab christians having their own pope, or even still more plausible, Mohammad is actually the name of the holy spirit who gave them the revelation of the true nature of Jesus and not of a person (Jesus I'm also not convinced he existed outside of literature, and the holy spirit I don't believe exists )
@@soukai Dear Qur’an and the Sunnah that we have before us is a continuous and uninterrupted chain of narrators even the companions of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and they are eyewitnesses + the lineage of the Prophet Muhammad is known and his descendants have a tree that goes back to Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, cousin of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and known is the ancestral tree of every child from the lineage of the family of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh + the tomb of the Prophet Muhammad in the Prophet’s Mosque and next to it are the tombs of his two companions Abu Bakr al-Siddiq and Omar Ibn al-Khattab and this is documented in history books and the tomb of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his two friends are protected from the Saudi soldiers inside the Prophet’s Mosque
There are other guides if you like
@@brotherben4357 My dear, the question is, what is the method and criteria that prove your historical novel, the Bible, or anything else?
The Arab Muslims set strong requirements to prove the authenticity of the historical narratives.
This is something that is academically respected
Many history books that you read without a chain of narrators connected to make sure of their credibility. This is the least that can be a criterion for the credibility of these historical references.
The Biography of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh The criteria are strong, such as the requirement of trustworthy eyewitnesses for an uninterrupted sequence of narrators, the study of each narrator, his credibility, the extent of his knowledge and his commentary, and whether the narrators lived in the same time, etc.. Therefore, Muslims were able to preserve the Prophet’s hadith from distortion after the anti-Islam tried to do so
I'm only half way through this, but it's so nice that you have in the Professor someone who breaks free from the straightjacket of the "Meccan origin" which so inhibits understanding of the conquest's beginnings. I eagerly await the release of Prof. Von Sivers' book.
@@jojofreelancerkup7501 , well i'm glad you did. Marijn Van Putten and Sean Anthony vociferously oppose the idea that Petra was the ur-Mecca. But it is important that people hear the the other side too. The Professor says this identity can't be proven, but think otherwise. The new archaeological picture of 7th century Petra is going to turn common assumptions upside down. And the presence of "ar-Raqim" in the Qur'an and its specific context is hugely significant, especially since the entire Muslim exegetical tradition somehow "forgot" the meaning of this toponym.
@@davidmontoute2074
Petra was deserted from 550. There is zero historical evidence for Petra after this date.
This 'scholar' also has to explain why all earliest Quranic manuscripts are in the Hijazi dialect! Marijn van Putten has proven this.
He also has to explain how all the competing muslim groups and all surrounding Christians and other groups never recorded a major shift.
This Petra theiry is absolutely ridiculous. A scholar shouldn't speculate with zero evidence. Hebis clearly working to a conclusion instead of evidence.
@@alonzoharris6730 No. You are seriously behind the times with your ideas on Petra chronology. It is listed as the first city of palaestina tertia in the Descriptio orbis Romani, written in the first decade of the 7th century. At around this same time, it is mentioned in the Pratum Spirituale by John Moschus. We know that the 550 earthquake made no material difference to Petra, or at least, nothing like the effect that the 363 earthquake had.
Re: "He also has to explain how all the competing muslim groups and all surrounding Christians...never recorded a major shift." You're assuming an awful lot in that statement. Firstly, the cultic location of Muhammad's group was certainly sidelined during the Sufyanid period. So it was not a universal site for all of the Mu'minun. The Sufyanids instead focused on Jerusalem, as did Abd el-Malik. Secondly, the qibla change IS mentioned by numerous Muslim sources, even long after it occurred. Q 142-145 also discusses this, verses that were surely added during teh Marwanid period.
@@davidmontoute2074 David, this is a video that fits your discussion, and I have a lot
ruclips.net/video/B9qFyxKTyg4/видео.html
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2صThanks, Abdallah. But you should know that using Google Earth to determine qibla is precisely what King, Anthony, Van Putten etc reproach dan Gibson for. The argument is that nobody back then determined qibla using flat maps, but by a variety of folkloric methods (prior to Abassid times). Also, Abdel Majid az-Zindani is simply not a credible source, not by my lights anyway.
In spite of all that, i don't doubt that the Sana' mosque points in the general direction of Mecca (and Petra too).
Awesome conversation! Thank you so much for facilitating this talk! 👍👍
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
You following just assumption 🙃.
Once you said Catholicism invented Islam ..
Others say Al Batra is real Mecca...
What next ? Ellon Musk invented Islam ?😂😂
Perhaps ancient aliens 😂
@@craigthebrute7929 Donno why Christians left their thousands of cults and dominations including mormons and JW and so on, and they are very obsessed with islam
There is a book by Amin Maalouf titled 'the gardens of lighr' where he writes about the various groups springing up around the time of the fall of the Persian Empire. I believe he suggests that Islam came in as an alternative to the inhumane dominating rule of the priest caste of the Persian empire. It makes fir a very interesting read.
I don't understand how the Professor can urge to "believe the Qur'an", when he acknowledges internal conflict.
what internal conflict
@@Ikhlashasib10 Did you not watch the whole video, or did you tune out when the Professor discussed conflicts between groups contributing to, or represented in, the Qur'an? Do you need me to post a timestamp?
@@bolanmoonward3483 tf who told you ppl wrote the Quran and where is his evidence to back up that statement of ppl coming together to write the Quran? 😂
@@Ikhlashasib10 Again, I ask: did you watch the video? Or are you just reacting to comments?
And, are you ignorant of the development of the Qur'an? I am given to understand that Muhammad didn't write anything, but recited his "revelations". Others transcribed what he said, either concurrently, or from memory. These were later collected, and edited. There were variations, and some were left out of the "official" version.
What a story. That reminds me of a story of a man in Mexico that he managed to build a small army including some traitors, and he was able to take over Texas and California after a few battles here and there 😂
Homeboy was living his best life out there
You know, it could be the case that both Von Sivers’ thesis *and* the other Islamic origin theories are right at the same time. The stories have different details, but I don’t see why they should conflict.
Everything he’s saying here sounds like it would’ve been very important in setting Islam (or what would become Islam) in motion, but it still sounds compatible with a lot of the other proposed ideas.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
@Derek I don't know if you are aware, but in Germany "you have a lot of information" is a compliment :D
Thx for posting, love your content
The same trigger happend with the Mongols and Chinese. The Chinese stopped the trading with the Mongols, the Mongols suddenly had a huge surplus of horses, humans and high need of food and products supplied traditionally from Chinese. This triggered the Mongols to fight between them - initially the Chinese strategy worked well. But by chance the Mongols managed to unite and go after the needed products in China. And after that the same forces needed to expand on and on.
Interesting how the Prof mentions Petra - Ive seen a lecture in RUclips arguing that Petra was the original location of Mecca, and how the earliest Mosques were directly facing Petra, and not the current location of Mecca now.
I've seen that - it's brilliant.
the original qibla(direction of worship) was changed during the lifetime of the prophet. the original direction was towards Jerusalem which if you check is the same direction of Petra from Mecca. :).
@@hassannaveed4788Hi. I saw the documentary referred to & that was the thinking of the presenter (that they faced Jerusalem) but research ruled Jerusalem out & Petra was being faced with remarkable accuracy.
This guy is awesome. Could listen to his thoughts on Islam all day
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
He has everything wrong
This is a most interesting channel. Kudos to you Derek. I am in the process of working my way through all your postings.
Thank you both for this awesome conversation. Highly appreciated.
This is an excellent interview with the right historian on Islamic origins. Very very interesting.
Islam is from the devil
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
This is a load absolute horse 💩
It would be important to look into life of Mohammed if Islam was a reaction from Arabs to denounce the divine nature of Jesus, why did only a single man start to spread that ideology? He was born and lived in Mecca and did travel towards Syria for trade. If it was a reaction, most instances it comes from groups of people and rarely from a single person
@MythVision Podcast do you think Islamic scholars will generally agree with this?
Since when do Islamic scholars listen to Western priests and academics regarding their history or the Islamic religion?
It is better to host a Muslim sheikh next to this academic, and the public will be the judge of who has the most evidence
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص I’d love for Derek to have a Muslim scholar on.
Hi Derek. I have noticed that there was a poem writer in pre islamic time named 'diwan umayyah ibn abi al sadd'. And that this character wrote poems that look similair like some verses in the Quran. The 7 heavens and the shooting stars. Also about Dhul-Qarnayn and the muddy spring. Do you ever heard of this and is it possible to ask it to a scholar in that degree of knowledge about poems in pre islamic time?
I will ask around to my scholar friends.
أمية بن ابي الصلت = umayyah ibn abi al sadd'
One of the poets of the from the Thaqif tribe before Islam, and he was on monotheism, the religion of the Prophet Ibrahim, peace be upon him.
There are personalities before Islam who were on the religion of Hanifia, that is, the religion of the Prophet Ibrahim, peace be upon him
And some were on true Christianity before the appearance of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, such as the deacon Salman al-Farsi
Only Arabs who read in pre-Islamic history, such as Sheikh Hassan Somali, Shamsi, etc., will be able to discuss these topics.
The Scriptures of the Prophet Ibrahim, the Torah, the Injeel, the Psalms, etc.. They are the word of the Creator, and if there is a distortion in them, their origin is not denied.
Muslims follow what the Creator has said in the Qur’an, and certainly there is what remains and is true in the other heavenly books, so there is no problem in repeating the information because the origin of the news is from the Creator.
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص Are u a Muslim? Right? go to Thomas Alexander channel.
@@bewareofcults Do you love Christ Jesus? And you follow what he tells you? Even if it contradicts your mother's words?
@@عبدالله-ن6ه2ص "mother" Please use the correct term "birthing person"
Nice!prof von sivers has a lecture on Islamic origins you guys should watch.
Jumped the gun there,I see Eric already linked it.
the sound is not that good but the lecture is great
Very interesting. Have to say though that his referring to Mohammad as a 'creature' seemed rather unprofessional and indicative of bias
Salam, Shlomo, Shalom, Peace.
Noah Family:
Vedas:
There Is Only One God,
There Is Only One Source,
There Is Only One Supply.
Avesta Zoroastrian:
There Is Only One Wise God,
Whom Is Uncreated.
Buddhist Cannon:
There Is Only One God,
Whom Created Good & Evil.
Abraham Family:
Torah [Old Testament]:
The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Gospel [New Testament]:
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.
Quran [Last Testament]:
Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute,
He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten,
There Is None Comparable Unto God.
1:39:36 this is a great point. Quran has no reference to contemporary events, people and places. It’s extremely strange, as if everything was deliberately removed to match the narrative that was cooked up a few centuries later.
This is really not the case. Please stop your wishful thinking, you are in denial. It is an established fact that it has not been changed since its original inception. The oldest manuscript exists in a museum somewhere and it is the same as today, word for word, letter for letter. Go and check for yourself. :)
@@hassannaveed4788Salam my brother. I was raised as a Christian and later reverted to Islam and I came to the conclusion that Islam is another interpretation of Christianity not a new religion
That is completely wrong, and some one that hasn’t read the Quran would say such a thing, many of the verses were directly referencing things that were happening at the time - also mentions a war that occurred during that time between the Persians and romans:
“The Romans have been defeated in the nearest land (to the Arabian Peninsula), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious within three to nine years.... “( Quran 30:2-4)
613 the persians defeated the romams and 9 years later the romans defeated the Persians.
So not only does it talk about a easily verifiable battle between the two largest empires at that time, but also states that in a few years the romans will come back and win (and shortly after that, as you know, the Persian empire is destroyed by the Muslims).
Sura 48 :4
Ok
but there is no 74 in that Sura .
There are only 29 verses in Sura 48
*DEAR MYTH VISION*
When are you going to invite a Muslim scholar onto your podcast to explain the Islamic position on many of these points?
Would not be worth it. All you would get is biased fake information that fits with the narrative of the dogma. To understand the historical development of regions you don't speak to religious people you look to science.
It should be a historian and scientist - not a Scholar since it would be the same you invite a padre or bishop to the interview.
Hard to find. Like Prof. Hossein Nasr, they try to play in two incompatible fields. They say they are Scholars (because they work in colleges) but , at the same time, assume they are believers and accuse "western science" of "colonialism", "hidden agenda" and other awful things. Incompatible and paradoxal.
Thank you for a very interesting episode.
I had the automatic subtitles/ caption on. At the end of the episode, according to the cations, you said in your very own dramatic fashion, WE ARE .... MYTH FISHING.
1:29:15 Surah Fath 48 only goes up to 29 verses not 78. Lies upon lies also verse 4 is speaking about an incident where the Muslims were in Jihad not peace. What kind of academic is this where he doesn't even do simple research? A quick Google search would tell you how many verses in Surah 48, this man is ruining his credibility by blatantly lying through out this video
Such a great discussion. Very enlightening. Thanks Derek.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
does he not consider quranic "muhammad" meaning "praised one" or "awaited one" referring to jesus?
Derek, you are interviewing top notch scholars dude
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
Unfortunately, you(host) and the author dishonest,
You carefully chose your subjects and guests,
1--The author said "Mushrikin" in the Arebia before Islam are "Christians," and that's a lie because they're called "Mushrikin" because they worship idols in Macca.
2--the author said Muhammad was preaching before got the revelation, and that's a lie because He was a merchant and never read or wrote according to the Quran.
3-- The third lie was that you said that the Quran picked up the crouessification idea without proving it.
If we don't know anything about Islam we better study it and understand it first
"The Christology of Islam helped shaping it" Peter von Sivers, is a novel way of looking at the origins of early Islam. But we need to account for the Judaic elements and pagan practices in early Islam.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
The jewish elements may stem from the unsuccessful attempts to gain followers under the mostly jewish tribes around Medina plus some obvious OCD-traits in Muhammad himself transforming into specific ritualism. All this (especially the mekkan revelations leaning to christiantiy and accepting Jesus as a prophet) did not work out with the jews of the arabian peninsula very well.
9:42 I was listening about early Christianity a bit ago. The thing that really separated them from everyone else was their kindness and compassion. If someone, anyone came to them hungry, even if they didn’t have enough food for them, they were given food and the Christians would fast. They always prayed for everyone, even the ones torturing and killing them.
I kinda think the world has forgotten what a Christian is. And I’m not throwing shade, I don’t do that, but I don’t go around claiming what a great Christian I am either.
Hypocrisy is strong in The Church, at least here in the USA.
I hope much more Islamist people would seriously watch this with an open mind as this is really important information 🙂
This is really a bizarre explanation of Islam's origin. Mohammed has never been to Petra and Mecca was a major city that was well documented in history because it was the location of the Kaaba and a major tads hub. John Hammer of Centre Place (you look him up on youtube, believes that there was an early Christian sect called Ebionites who believed that Jesus was a mere man and not divine. They escaped persecution after the Nicaean creed was established as the main Christian belief. Mohammed's wife Khadija was Christian and John Hammer believes that her family had a major influence on how Mohammed believed in Jesus. Also, in the beginning of this interview, Mr. Peter Von Severs is also confused about the Christians in Syria and Iraq. In the latter, there was an Arab tribe that aligned itself with Persia called Almanazerah (bani Munzer or the Munzer tribe) and they were pagan like the Persians. In Syria, there was a Christian tribe called ALGhassasenah (bani Ghassan) and they were Christian, and they aligned themselves with Constantinople. Also, the two biggest tribes in Arabia (Taghleb and Beker) were Christian. There were also Pagans called Majooce who were very close in worship to the Persians as well as many Jewish tribes. However, the Quran debates the Christians after they came to Mohammed and presented their beliefs. It was made clear that Jesus was a mere prophet (blasphemous are those who say that Jesus is the son of God, Blasphemous are those who say that God is one of three, Blasphemous are those who say that Jesus is God). Evidently, the pagan Arabs believed that the Christian Arabs were also Pagan because of the concept of the Trinity and told Mohammed that the Christian gods are no different than our gods and the response in the Quran is that they are using Christ just for the sake of arguing because Jesus is no more than one of God's servants. I am truly disappointed by this interview which is based on opinions instead of any historical facts.
12:52 the biggest loss of early Christianity was the losing of its gnostic arm and all the gnostic literature
Many Gnostic Christian literature have survived.
Please bring Dr. Sivers back, and ask him: WHERE DOES HE THINK ISLAM ORIGINATED - - WAS IT AMONG THE JEWISH CHRISTIANS (not the Nestorians, nor the Miaphysites, nor the Chalcedonians)? You sort of asked him this, but he didn't give you a direct answer. I believe the answer is YES.
One of the best, if not THE best, episodes on islamic origins!
Get Robert Martin Kerr from the German Inarah school. They are far ahead in this field.
I just read some of his publications. Great stuff.
It is in French though. He is Canadian, I assume French Canadian.
Does he speak English?
@@bewareofcults Yes, he speaks good English.
@@exzoro8193 thank you!
For those who like to know German Inarah school, a good place to start is this channel ruclips.net/channel/UCXPr9Vbibc7wIXJT3_ym-dQ
this guy is from the Inarah school
Well around the 1 hour and 30 minutes, the Dr made a claim of 2 contradicting verses. He said that they are both in sura 48 verses 4 and 74. There's no verse 74 in sura 48. It ends at verse 29 for God's sake.
That was so dumb
Another triggered Mohamed 😂😂😂
It sounds like an interesting hypothesis. There are some gaps that seem puzzling 1. There is a large gap in the Arab sources. 2. Why the Abassids would completely re-write history, 3. Is there any archeology to suggest Mecca really was an insignificant settlement ex ante. 4. Why they would pick Mecca and 5. How the Abassids would wipe out all competing narratives (moving from Petra to Mecca seems as monumental as moving from Rome to Contantinople)
I do like the approach that views Islam as a continuation of the Judeo tradition. And that does seem to be the Arab narrative. That they are the true keeper of the flame, not the Romanized version of the Judaic traditions.
P.S. I'm not making a commentary on the theology, more the history. What is also puzzling for me is that a group of nomads took down two superpowers in 40 years. It's almost like the Mongol much better documented Mongol expansion.
Its a fantasy that Arabs were nomads.
What occurred was that Arab mercenaries of the Sassanians took control of Iraq and the. Conquered the Levant
@Siraj Haq Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect on his scrotum.
Sahih al-Bukhari 278
I've just started watching so sorry if this is addressed elsewhere. Your points 1&2 could be linked. It appears that proto Islam was developing under the Umayyad as a unitarian/anti Trinitarian Christian movement (there's still Unitarian Christian sects today) with strong objections to the Trinitarianism of the West.
Once the Abbasids decided on the new religion of empire it's then encumbent on them to destroy anything that may contradict it. As much writing and records are religious they would go.
3. As far as I'm aware, the first mention of Mecca is in the 8th/9th century and the first time it appears on a map of 900AD. This suggests it was not a significant settlement till the 10th century. I'm not aware of any archeology to suggest it was either. The Saudi gov have been putting up buildings for decades and not once has one been stopped because they've found archeology that could prove their religion.
4. leaders pick new capitals all the time and in strange places. Not sure that's difficult. Leaders have done it throughout history from Arkenaten in Egypt right through to the Burmese gov recently.
5. Great cities have come and gone relatively quickly. Petra was 'lost' for centuries. Macchu Picchu too. India is littered with ex capital cities of empires, now reduced to small villages. I'm not sure it's as hard as you think.
The bigger question for Islam to answer is, despite claiming Muhammad, Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali to be great kings that founded not just an empire but a religion there's literally no contemporary evidence for any of them and any that's within the next 100yrs is highly contentious.
They're the greatest kings to not leave a trace.
@Siraj Haq I believe the truth. Why would you want to believe a cult that was invented in the 9th century and advocates killing Apostates etc.?
In my view the Quran was intended as a "mystical" reinterpretation of ideas taken from Aristotle, Judaism and Christianity. When I look at list of Aristotle's works along side a list of the Surahs I see a resemblance; not necessarily in literal content, but in structure and format. There is a sort of Aristotelian logic being applied in the Surahs.
That is the problem. Prophet was unlettered and probably never heard about Aristoteles at all. Quran was revealed in 23 years while He also busy fought those Arab infidels. We must assume prophet of Islam was a well learned man who master few languanges and poetic bcz Quran He brought is master piece of classic Arabic. But again narration mentioned that He was unlettered guy.
@@andanandan6061 in fact a lot of Arabs dispute the quranic language there are many of linguistic/clerical errors, but because quranic Arabic is held as a standard those errors are turned into the standard.
Also it is assumed that your prophet was illiterate, but it was very uncommon for a charismatic merchant from Mecca, the most important trading city in southern Arabia to be completely illiterate. Plus verse in the quran relates to those that don’t know their books as illiterate.
Also illiteracy doesn’t prevent you from copying the “structure & the format” app you need is a pair of eyes for that 🙂.
When you start reading it and breaking it down it’s far from so called “miracle”.
@@Ange0967 the people who knew him accepted Islam .They knew he was unlettered,if he was a history scholar and made up a new religion they would have called BS on him .
@ Абу Шейх poor people accepted his message in Mecca, and Lot of people in Medina. The reason rich/ powerful people didn't want to accept his message because financial benefit they had over kaba in Mecca. jizza is just tax. everybody has to pay jizya or zakat for muslims. jizya is fixed, zakat is percentage. that mean rich non muslim paying Jizya is beter then zakat . for the poor zakat is beter financial .
@ Абу Шейх what is wrong with that? people have to pay tax. what do you think it will happen to you if you refuse to pay tax in any country??
Dr. Von Sivers unfortunately mischaracterized the belief of the miaphysites. They did not believe that Jesus was solely divine, rather that he had a single united human/divine nature after the incarnation. Incredible that even in academia this misunderstanding still persists.
EDIT: Ignore this comment.
"Miaphysitism is the Christological doctrine that Jesus Christ had only one divine nature after the union of the divine and human in the Incarnation." (Wikipedia) And that is basically what Dr. von Sivers said at 31:57.
@Dharma Defender Interesting. I double checked with an ecumenical lexicon at my disposal and it basically says the same as Wikipedia. So who to trust on this? And who claims authority to define it?
@Dharma Defender Fascinating. Thank you very much for your explanation and the book recommendation.
(Maybe you could try and edit the Wikipedia article, even though that platform is a dumpster fire and in the least cases reliable in the slightest.)
Edit: It looks like YT ghosted your comment. I could read it in my notifications however. Just letting you know. That algorithm is brutal...
@Dharma Defender It is especially complicated for someone like me (who isn't a Christian, who was raised an atheist, and who mostly only cares about European paganism and Dharmic philosophies). Thanks again for your input!
These guys are all conspiracy theorists. Islam is the truth. Very clear. They can challenge Islam by going on..........Hamzas Den arena. On youtube.
After most people left worshipping. God sent a Prophet Mohammad again with the message.
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
When is he going to mention the Christian Aramaic roots of Islam?
Incredible Derek! What a great video
I can see a few Muslims in the comments going through the denial and coping stage but eventually they will have to accept the facts about the Quran and Islam.
What were the facts? He just gave us a theory without any evidence but just speculation. The crucifixion is only mention in one verse in the Quran and in passing; within the contexts of the rebellious history of the Israelite's.
@@Nazam44 you have a point. Not much evidence is given to back up his claims.
Cope? Lmfao HE LITERALLY GAVE O EVIDENCE FLATH EARTH LEVEL OF DELUSION Atheist academia are laughing at this
@@Nazam44 Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect on his scrotum.
Sahih al-Bukhari 278
@@Nazam44 As a fan of evidence just how much of the Standard Islamic Narrative is evidenced. And how clear and coherent is what is presented. Apply a higher standard to SIN and you'll see just how gullible you have been.
There’s knowing something…and then there’s knowing how to explain something. Some people do not do a very good job of explaining what they know…and it’s painful to listen to.
This is a very timely presentation, Derek.
Who said it better than Thucydides : The Strong Do What they Can, and the Weak Do as They Must."
There is no verse 48:74 in the Quran. Check your sources.
I have been in the Hagia Sophia twice. The old exposed art is spectacular. And I am an atheist.
@Dharma Defender St Mark's in Venice is a byzantine style church as Venice was once a client state of the Byzantine empire but for stunning Byzantine mosaics you have to visit the churches in Ravenna a bit further south of Venice -it was the seat of the Byzantine exarchate when a lot of Italy was reconquered by Justinian from the Goths.
Think most atheists love all the ancient cathedrals same way they love the pyramids etc.
These "Mohamed didn't exist" theories are fantastic and complicated. The reason why the Quran was compiled later, and why Makkah was not mentioned earlier, is because the society needs to reach a level sophistication in order to have books, written records and bureaucracy. The Arab society simply wasn't at that level at the time of Mohammad.
The reason why Mohammed probably existed is because his history describes the most normal dude and not someone who is ten feet tall and shoots lasers out of his eyes. Mohammed's biography is full of mundane details like who me married and when, who are members of his family, when he made what voyage, and so on.
That was a brilliant lecture, Dr Siver was Scholarly, wise and very charming. I am currently exploring what it is to be a Muslim in modern Britain and part of that research led to this.
I have been following this idea that there is something amiss in the Islamic story and Dr Sivers research was fascinating.
I was at the dome of the rock last year and felt it’s historic and religious impact, the shine is utterly beautiful.
What I thought was so charming was that he ended saying that Islam as a faith should not be seen as a religion of conquest and that the oneness of God, being spiritually connected is what it’s all about.
I’ve seen a lot of RUclips titles that, I think have negative intentions so this has been fascinating and enlightening and I’ll be listening to other stuff in the series. ✌🏾 ❤️
I do not understand at all his argument surrounding the Trisagion. The problem with the hymn wasn't that it said God was crucified, but that the Chalcedonian form was clearly addressed to the Trinity (the Father is "Holy God," the Son is "Holy Mighty," the Holy Spirit is "Holy Immortal") while the Miaphysite form was clearly addressed to Jesus ("who was crucified for us"). The "one nature" doctrine of the Miaphysites was feared to lead into either Tritheism or Modalism, and this addition to the hymn was seen by the Chalcedonians as confirming that the Miaphysites are indeed Modalists. This was the issue, not whether God died on the cross or not (both Chalcedonians and Miaphysites thought so).
Muslims never said that Islam began with Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Islam started with the first human Prophet Adam pbuh. Muslim too believes in Prophet Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets of God that always conveyed the same message with Prophet Muhammad pbuh believe and worship in only The One and True God in Arabic that is Allah. This makes Jesus, Moses, Abraham and all the other Prophets are actually Muslims because they submit to Allah. Prophet Muhammad pbuh is just the one who completed the guidance from Allah to humanity.
So does that mean that lslam believes that the Jews were God's chosen people
Your prophet graped a 9 year old 😂
@@johncarroll772 I notice your question never got answered.
@@johncarroll772Yeah and no. As far as i know, Islam dislikes jews for their people getting all other revelations. Like christianity, Islam presents humanity as God's chosen, not a paticular person or group as other prophets came to other places and tought.
This expands propehts into buddah and other such people.
So in the rhetoric, there is no favourites but great prophets were from jews minus last. Take from that what you will.
Thank you for inviting Hector Salamanca.
49:10 "The Quran was not clear on the divinity of Jesus". Maybe not in the verse Peter referenced, but the Quran - in other verses - clearly points out that Jesus was only a man, and not divine with a miraculous birth, and compared it to Adam - another man born without a father or mother.
Peter's misunderstanding of the Islamic position on this topic makes me think what else he misunderstood.
His belief that Arabia was not pagan but christian is not historically correct. Yemen had a Jewish majority, with a christian and pagan minority, while the rest of Arabia were pagan with pockets of jews and christians here and there.
One must ask, if Mecca - a central point to traveling caravans - did not exist until the rise of Islam, then how did Muslims gain power and influence over the trade routes?? And the birth of the Islamic faith could not have happened without the pre-existence of Mecca to that era.
Im sorry, there's much to Peter's history lessons that are simply not historical, regardless whether he believes the theology, or not.
It’s borderline flat earth level of delusion.
16:19 yes obviously (according to the mythology) Jesus was crucified by Roman hands. But the gospels specifically mention how the Romans didn't want to do this but it was done from Jewish pressure. And it even says in the gospels that the Jews said "let his blood be on our hands". So they are considered to blameworthy
Yes this has been largely ignored. Even the vaitican at one point said jews were not responsible. I wonder if this is due to zionist power in world geo politics.
lmao...the ad before the show. Muslims asking for donations to convert a church.
I got the same ad and before that I got a DeSantis ad while watching David Pakman. I almost never see ad's in RUclips that correspond to my views and I suspect that it is because views based on reason don't have to be sold.
@@warrensmith8161 So you don't understand how ads work. Got it.
That ad really winds me up especially when I'm not even a Muslim!
I am sorry gentlemen but you ignored the older history. The trinity started with the Sumerians. There was one goddess 'El' or 'Al' who introduced the ten commandments.. not to kill not to steel and so on in order to help people to live in large cities for the first time in history. She was then associated with the cow as the saviour of humanity when the draught his the area. She was associated with moon as it had the same life history of a woman period and her son became a god later. Then the husband 'Ba el' became a god as city life and agriculture required muscles. So the trinity started with the Sumerians so was the ten commandments. What is more they were called 'mulem' believe it or not. So thins didn't start with Moses or Ibraham or Jesus and Mohammed at the end.
I m grateful to Almighty and Muhammad pbuh for revealing and educating us the Quran, respectively, which clarified the distortions in the history mainly because people seemed to have lost the track of the original bible and articulated their own versions defying the reality as the process was identified by Danial Goleman - how does the brain defies.
Hahaha ok the same poem again and again and again by the desperate muslims 😂😂😂😂😂
I learned Arabic in order to read the Quran. Messy, backtracks, inconsistent. Then read Hadith, studied the history, a religion out of pure imagination that took form 300 years after Mohammed's death.
I listened to the entire podcast. This was fantastic!
I hope you keep on porting this type of material about Islam.
Thank you very much.
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d. 659) said "...For these Nomads [ṭayyāyē], to whom God has given dominion over the world at this time, indeed are also among us, as you know. Not only are they not opponents of Christianity, but they even praise our faith and honor the priests and holy ones of our Lord and give assistance to the churches and monasteries. How then did your people of Mrwny’ abandon their faith on this pretext of theirs? And this when, as even the people of Mrwny’ admit, the Nomads did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to give up half of their belongings and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned the faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which is for a short time. And the faith that all peoples have bought and are buying with their lives, and through which they will inherit eternal life, your people of Mrwny’ did not even buy with half of their belongings." - How can one conclude from this that they are Christian?
I don't think he understands enough. "Can't see the wood for the trees" adage springs to mind.
You are really doing a great job brother.
Great interview. I saw his BYU lecture. Thank you for making this!
BTW you guys covered a lot more than his BYU lecture. Your insight and input really contributed and complimented the amount of information packed into this very short 2hr interview. I hope you interview Peter again. And don't hesitate to make the interview longer!
Peter von Sivers is a liar! Let's have a look at what Isho'yahb III of Adiabene (d.659AD) really said "...For also these Arabs to whom at this time God has given control over the world, as you know, they are [also here] with us. Not only are they no enemy to Christianity, but they are even praisers of our faith, honorers of our Lord’s priests and holy ones, and supporters of churches and monasteries. Indeed, how did your people of Mrwnyʼ abandon their faith on pretext of [the
Arabs’]? And this when, as even the people of Mrwnyʼ say, the Arabs did not force them to abandon their faith but only told them to abandon half of their possessions and to hold on to their faith. But they abandoned their faith, which is eternal, and held on to half of their possessions, which are ephemeral...."
How can one conclude from this that the Arabs are Christian? If you want the know about the true origins of Islam - see the James Howard-Johnston interview Derek did.
@@inquisitivemind007
It's just a finding. His findings doesn't challenge the legacy of Islam. He just speaks about its origin. I don't see a need for a challenge. In America you can believe in what evert you want to. But we expect everone to be open to the evidence. I've heard this finding before by other professors. I found this guy in order to verify other researchers. Neither challenged the legacy. They just speak of the origins. And they both seem to concur.
And so you know. I doubt any of us would reject any evidence that proves the stories in the Koran are true if the research is thorough.
And in my opnion.... since the stories in thre Koran are more recent, I believe they to be more historically accurate than older religions.
I need to check this out after I get out of work.
I am trying to find surah 48 verse 74 but there is none. Did he confuse 2 different surahs ? Can someone please help
9:40 Pagans in Arabia followed either the Nabatean pantheon in the north western regions or the Yemeni pantheon of the south western region. East Arabia had their own theology with manichaean and Zoroastrian elements... The Jesus figure was looming large over the populations of Levant and North West Arabia.
Salam, Shlomo, Shalom, Peace.
Noah Family:
Vedas:
There Is Only One God,
There Is Only One Source,
There Is Only One Supply.
Avesta Zoroastrian:
There Is Only One Wise God,
Whom Is Uncreated.
Buddhist Cannon:
There Is Only One God,
Whom Created Good & Evil.
Abraham Family:
Torah [Old Testament]:
The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Gospel [New Testament]:
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.
Quran [Last Testament]:
Say He Is God, The One, The Absolute,
He Begets Not, Nor Is He Begotten,
There Is None Comparable Unto God.
His point about the Umayyads liking images doesn’t reflect on the overall opinion of Islam or Muslims, especially considering that many of the Umayyad rulers are rejected as misguided by Muslims of that time and scholars now. Many Umayyad rulers had actually killed companions of the prophet ﷺ in an attempt to change religion in their favor. Thankfully, they failed and their opinions/practices were refuted.
I think who created Islam was not God.