Fred Donner and scholars like him are the real heroes of modern thinking about religion. Calm and thoughtful scholarship is what we need to listen to and learn from. The anger and intolerance in the comments here are tiresome to read and toxic: nothing is as bad and nothing is as good as what is claimed here.
@Noah Kennedy - Comments like this are conclusive proof that you haven't actually spent any time reading the Quran or hadiths. Or at least you had not when you wrote this comment; RUclips tells me that I am writing 3 years after your comment. Anybody that has read the Islamic scripture, any significant part of it, for it is not necessary to have read all of it; knows that Islam is WORSE that what the people describe in the thread comments. It is truly beyond the imagination of anybody who grew up in the West, unless they have studied it.
Darrius Cole - I doubt you know what you are talking about since no civilization can spread and become dominant as Islam did for so many centuries if its core values were corrupt in the first place. The other commentators in this thread show this level of understanding and nuance. That you don't demonstrates you and your jaundiced views don't belong here.
Unfortunately, I DO know what I am talking about. The values ascribed by the Quran are bad beyond the imagination of the average person born and raised in the US or Europe. If you don't think so then you either 1) Are a muslim yourself or 2) You have not read it. Most muslim people are better than what is allowed in Quran. Also, the fact that Islam spread does not mean that its underlying virtues are good. Governments with corrupt values become dominant all the time.
And why his views do not belong here? And what the values are, if I can ask that lead to the genocide of Armenians? Islam was dominant because of the military conquests not because of the values it represents.
Having lived in different countries with different beliefs, I can say one thing very clear and loud;very few people are practising their belief. The most of us worship money and power. Regardless of beliefs, we have this phenomenon in common. No difference, quintessential all the time.
@@byronwright1612 he is certainly not the same as our God. Mainly (I think) because the socalled angel Gabriel who gave the messages to Mohammad, was not an angel of God and his messages were more diabolical. than anything else. Even M. thought the angel was a demon , in the beginning.
What did Jesus say? 🤔 No one can serve two masters... it's either God is your master or money is your master". The Bible speaks truth once again...................................................
I personally think this man was somewhat fair with his opinion of how Islam started. He tried to stay as respectable as possible being a non-Muslim. NO, HE WONT TELL IT LIKE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL IT BECAUSE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL THE STORY WITH A PASSION OF BELIEF IN ISLAM!
One of the most sensible explanations of the origins of Islam,without the bombastic preachings of Islamic scholars who believe they are right and everyone else are infidels and are wrong.
Thanks for the calm and thoughtful analysis. I have to emphasize that your arabic pronunciation is impeccable. Very impressive! I personally learnt a lot about the history of my own religion.
@simp hunter I think the Bible is more in line with history because it has been written in a big period of time. The Bible shows what the people of different times think about God(s),. In the other side, Quran reinterprets all those histories. Sometimes the Quran took stories and did not know exactly what they mean. Example the word Injil or Messiah. One additional contradiction that I found in the Quran is when they refers to God in first person plural, WE.
Learned a lot from watching this. It is truly amazing how little we know about the past. As a teacher, I try to emphasize the use of primary sources, yet we have so little of them for such big topics like origins of religion.
@@inquisitivemind007 Yep! Muhammad never went to Jerusalem, except in his dreams riding a flying donkey(!). When Islam was young and Muhammad thought that he'd be able to convert the Jews, he had his first disciples (muslims) to pray towards Jerusalem. Of course, the Jews were not very convinced. What did Muhammad do then? He expelled and beheaded all Jews of his hometown, and had the gibla changed from Jerusalem to Medina.
@@attiylanen lies lies lies,it was not a dream but a real journey , see what you are doing is picking and leaving narrative from the hadith which suits your belief , horse was running not flying , Islam wasn't young it always was since Adam qibla was first put towards jerusalem to remove strong racial felling from the Arab Muslims not impress because it was there since Mecca period when there were no Jews , muslim punished only those Jewish tribes who broked there treaty others were allowed to live , qibla was changed to Mecca not medina
@@saimtanweer5720 wrote: "horse was running not flying" If not flying, then answer me this: why did the 'horse' have wings? If it was not flying, how could Muhammad make the journey from Mecca to Jerusalem in one single night? If it wasn't a dream, but a real journey, how is it possible to make the trip from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night on a horseback? Plus, From Jerusalem Muhammad also flew to heaven. How ridiculous can one story be? But you are correct in this one. I made a mistake: Muhammad did change the qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca, not to Medina. That was my bad. See, I'm able to admit when I make a mistake or when I'm wrong. I've never seen any of your people admit when you're wrong. Everybody is free to read the whole story about the so-called break of treaty and how it was justified to have Muhammad behead 900 chained POWs in a single afternoon. Just read the Life of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq. It's all there. Don't take my word for it, neither take the word of any muslim. I urge everybody to just read it.
@@attiylanen wings were there 2 move really fast , and it wasn't a horse but a creature named buraq and it was too fast that's why it went to jerusalem to Medina in single night and from jerusalem to heaven was done with Gabriel not buraq correct if I'm wrong , so you can't say God can't do it for his Prophet Firstly you made another mistake , the judgement for Banu quraiza was given by Saad bin muad who made the treaty between muslim and Jews of Banu quraiza , if prophet would have did it he would have just expelled them from Medina for there treason And it was done according to DEUTERONOMY ch 13 rules , It wasn't so called break of treaty , it could have caused great loss to muslim , and saad died just few days after this judgement because he was wounded and Jews themselves choosed saad to give punishment for them And Ibn ishaq said 800 not 900 ,don't add extra , secondly his report is doubted by Muslim historian due to several reasons first ibn ishaq is not completely authentic and has some wrong narration , secondly the quran said about that punishment " some you executed and some you took captives " in ch 33 , so it is most authentic , and some other studies show that this large amount of men couldn't have belonged to single tribe and Medina a small city had no place for burial of these many mens and it happened just few hours after battle of trench , so most generally they would have been buried in the trench but report says they were buried in market place which doesn't looks correct because muslim were exausted so they wouldn't have took the pain to dig another grave yard
Definition of believers is given in 3rd chapter, beginning of Surah Al Imran. It says believer is one who believes in one God, all Angels, all holy books, all Prophets of Allah, Judgement day,
Benjamin Park he is a professor of Islam and near eastern studies. He is considered a orientalist scholar. I have his book that I used in seminary called narratives of Islamic origins. His profile in it calls him a scholar 🤔
Excellent presentation. One weakness is the omission to consider the many fractions, theological debates and disagreement within the christians, and probably jews as well, at the time. E.g. monophytism as pointed out by Prof. Freedman in Yale, also available here.
Thank you for this very informative lecture! I think it is important that we know what we're talking about :) - and it's a great way to discover the lies which are also being passed on in the media and so on, which could easily be used for propaganda etc. Thanks again.
Green 💚 colour hair.. Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions. No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,, Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society. Hum converted SUWARS Hai. Hum KALAMA Padhate hai... Huma-me JAJABA hai... Hum TALAK de sakate hai... Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)... 72 HOORS with big boobs for us... We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)... Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
May be it was. But considering the large number of enemies the Prophet, considering the inter-Muslim quarrels than began immediately after his death, the probability of history catching the truth was very small.
the stupidest statement ever made by a westerner ,sure he was present at the birth he caught the yawling infant as it burst out of aminas vagina ,also was splashed with all the blood urine amniotic fluid feaces so renan should know,he just forgot to take a selfie
I ageee with a lot of what he says. I was raised Christian and became a Muslim. I dont think they are different religions but the same. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to help bring us back to God's original message that he gave to everyone (so originally Jews and Christians) but their messages changed over time. Thats why i dont like to say "revert"or "convert" since its more like my faith has always been there, but ive come to a better understanding of God's original message. Therefore, this man's lecture with believers and how historical evidence of churches that were split with Muslims and Christians make so much sense
I converted to islam too. Y friend became a reborn Christian, and introduced to me the concept of God. I started to learn Christianity… and then stumbled upon Islam, and the lord of the universe explained to me Christianity better than what current Christianity is. I believe Christian’s are really Muslims, but they don’t want to believe it, but I do, because the lord of the universe taught us this, Jesus was a Muslim too Alhumdulilah
They're actually totally opposed. There are basically 2 religious systems out there, one based on salvation through faith (Bible Christianity alone) and the other one, where Islam is included with all of the other relions out there, based on salvation through own works, deeds. No true student of the Bible can ever become a muslim or anything else for that matter since they all lack "The way, The truth and The life".
@@MrCls88 this is a biased opinion, no offense :) every religion will teach "this is the true religion" and devote followers will be convinced their belief is truth. Our job is to research not just what the religion teaches (e.g. does it make sense, is it logical) but the evidence and strength of that religion being true. Christianity has such a beautiful message of love, hope, salvation but when it comes to evidence of reliability, it unfortunately is very weak. Nobody knows who wrote the 4 gospels for example. They were called Matthew mark luke and john in the 2nd century but were written unanimously. Biblical scholars believe the apostle Paul only wrote half the books claimed to be written by him. Biblical scholars also believe peter couldn't have written 1 and 2nd peter because it was written in highly skilled Greek and peter was an illiterate fisherman who spoke Aramaic. Revelation was written by a man named John but not THE John, not one of Jesus's disciples. Ending of mark isn't original, story of the prostitute in John was a 10th century addition....the Christmas stories contradict each other because there is a 10 year gab between King Herod and Quirinius. Shall I continue? In summary, I sincerely love Christianity. I really enjoy learning about the theology of Christianity (protestant). I listen to Biblical scholars basically every day. But the strength of evidence for Christianity really is weak. At the end of the day, it's not about which religion has the best promises and message. Its about which religion has the strongest evidence of being true. And from several years of research and learning, my conclusion is Islam has the strongest evidence of being true, despite my deep love for Christianity
Very few appreciate a lecture from a person who took the learning and took the trouble to do his best . It is quite clear that more intolerance exists than tolerance and understanding and good- will towards faiths other than one’s own .
As a Muslim, I feel every religions are man made politics of old. No god wants people to worship them as slaves, only Monarchs of the past wanted people to fear the unknown and obey rules which is not a bad thing politically. God the supreme one is loving and loves us all. Only the supreme one planned everything and will take us all back one day from every living to non living things.
I am a Muslim, and unfortunately many Muslims are afraid of Western scholarship & academia when it comes to the Qur’an or Islam (so too are many Christians & Jews when it comes to their religion), because they think it will invalidate their faith or cause them doubts. But I have to say that I actually find it INVIGORATING and REFRESHING to hear new, open-minded and diverse perspectives and insights that academics have to share. I often find gems that INCREASE my faith when I read their works. You don’t have to accept all of it, but that’s the point-have an open mind and be willing to listen to new perspectives, and be a critical thinker who thinks for themselves. As the Qur’an itself encourages: *”Those who listen to what is said, and follow the BEST of it. It is **_those_** whom God has truly guided. Those are the ones who possess real intellect.”* _(Qur’an __39:18__)_
Muslims are not afraid of Western Scholarship and academia after all it has had its own scholarships for hundreds of years analysing Islam as well. What is disconcerting is when bias and prejudice is dressed up as scholarship and academia and sold to unsuspecting poorly educated Muslim populations. To give you an example : Dr Daniel Brubaker and his book (20 Corrections in the Quran(?)). Although the book itself was not a work of scholarship it was presented as an extension (or extract) of his scholarly thesis. It is clear from the book that Dr Brubaker had already made up his mind about the preservation of the Quran before even listing one so-called "correction". As i said Muslims are not afraid... and in fact the Quran ITSELF challenges everyone - including scholars and academics - to critically analyse the Quran. If Allah himself is not afraid of academia and scholars why should Muslims be? Its not really about accepting or not accepting what western academics say. It is about validating their accuracy and truthfulness and eliminating prejudice and bias from their work. The truth/haqq is from Allah and hence ANY haqq is acceptable to Muslims even if expounded by western academics and scholars. However lies and innuendos presented as truth are strongly rejected.
Because HE is 3 persons and He can’t lie and has shown Himself to mankind 3 men appeared to Abraham! All 3 are YHVH. So either believe God & Abraham Or call God a liar!
P Harrison the concept of the trinity came 100 years after Jesus the prophet of God. And who came up with it? Unknown people..and one Jewish guy who lied about everything (Paul).
@@P.H.888 Trinity is an invented concept. See Codex Sinaiticus, an old manuscript. You'll see there is no Comma Johanneum. quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm
I am confident as a Christian for being competent enough to follow this discussion through comparison and contrast and the depth of the subject required to listen here, as well other discussions and debates I am following.
@Al Mudarabah I'm afraid you're incorrect. Your judgement of levels in Islam is A BIG part of modern Islam interpretation. The professor is simply analyzing the Qur'an and is not wrong or said to have missed anything. He also conceded there's no historical evidence from the time of Muhammad. Your submission based on the Qur'an text is already modern Islam.
Abdullah Al-Selwi I am a non-practising New York Jew married to a devout Episcopalian Irish man. We just visited the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. What a magnificent building! What I’ve found remarkable is that the Shrine of Nabi Yahya bin Zakarya (St. John the Baptist), has been given a special place inside the Sanctuary of the mosque. John, my husband, not the Prophet, has been very proud ever since that he got the chance to visit the shrine dedicated to the eponymous of his namesake, in a Muslim country of all places, far away from his parents’ native Ireland.
As a Muslim, I appreciate every second of this video. I didn't know even know 10% of this information about my OWN RELIGION. Thank you for this. Truly.
Don't take information from these dishonest academics. Go to credible sources. They can tell you lot better. We have non Muslim and Muslim testimonials with chain of narrations that no other civilization can boast of. Yet they paint Muslims as dishonest while taking all other historical evidence without enough testimonials. Biased and racists.
From the evidenciary texts state the references used within the Koran are quite directly drawn from Judaic Talmud or verbal recitation of the rabbinical traditions.
its almost the complete opposite, the talmud was fully organized in the 11-1300's and jews in arabia adopted many islamic concepts especially the greatest jewish scholar/rabbi maimonides, the Quran is very unique and still held as the highest form of the arabic language, you can hear the very clear distinction from the Quran rhyming and following a clear pattern while the rabbical verbal recitations are just teachings recited
I hear a lot of people stating conflicting opinions about history. I won't bother giving my understanding of history. Do your own study and homework. FIND the truth!
Ibn ishak wrote a biography of the prophet 100 hundred years later..ibn ishak were born 74 years after the prophet's death ..ibn ishak biography has a lot of hadith which is a sacred text
@James Wright haha a christian is talking ..You believe in Moses while there is no historical evidence he ever existed or that there were Israelites in Egypt..the existence of Jesus is also very doubtful and alot of historians believed he's a myth ..the oldest manuscripts of the 4 gospels you use is back to the 4th century..we have manuscripts of the Quran which is back very shortly after the prophet's death pbuh
If you read all the comments here, its as if none of them bothered to watch the video. If not that, then their basically saying they know better than a historian with a PhD who is the director of the center for middle eastern studies at chicago university.
It only takes perseverance to get a PhD. There are a lot of quacks with doctorates. And yes I am sure there are folks on these threads with a better understanding of Islamic history than this fool.
The worst part is he has spent years recovering, translating and documenting 7th century Arabic papyrus' which literally no other living person knows of.
I suppose this guy's second language is Arabic as his pronunciation of Arabic words is perfect which is very rare among westerners. Yes I am an Arabic person.
i think second language is a bit of a stretch, but he's surely studied it. i speak urdu and am muslim, and I've been told i have really good pronunciation, but i can only very vaguely understand it.
1. Because people weren't operating in a literary culture, but one of oral tradition and recitation. 2. The Hadiths are alleged sayings which Muslims may choose to take or leave (unlike the Qur'an). Many prefer to leave many of them and simply say they don't agree with them.
Comments section shows that the society is already brainwashed and dont want to listen anything which is opposite to the media. Thanks for this lecture. Here is a verse from Qur'an: Indeed, those who have believed and those who became Jews and Christians and the Sabians who believe in God and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past]. (2:62)
Is that true? I haven’t read so I don’t know. I don’t care for this man’s atheistic religious perspective, but I appreciate having the opportunity presented to see and read your comment. Peace be with you, brother.
Only ten years later since this lecture, we do have rock inscription from the times of prophet's companions, and Fred Donner's own student Prof. Sean Anthony discovered a biography of the Prophet written by his nephew, Urwa ibn Zubair. We are optimistic finding more!
A circuitous if well intentioned effort at a primer of the early days of Islam. Much more compelling and rigorous is the work of Jonathan Brown at Georgetown, who sharpens and challenges the increasingly obsolete methodology of looking at Islam and its history. Viewers would do well too springboard out of this video to Brown's work.
he is putting forward a thesis based on interpretations of early evidence. That's what historians do, you know. Or how did you think all that knowledge in history books came about if not through the same process.
Well, his thesis about "same God" and "only one set of equal believers" is dismantled by his very source. Qur'an Sura 9:29 and 98:6 should be enough, but there is much, much more. corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=98&verse=6
@Azazel Nicholas fyi, what is left from jews in north Africa when they are praying in arabic they pray to Allah (i am speaking about small, routine prayers like may Allah help you or may Allah be with u etc.) Also, in Egypt where 10% of the population is Christian, Christians also use the same prayers : may Allah help you and may Allah cure u etc. I am Muslim, i dont agree with all this professor said, and i didnt like the last 2 min or so when he started speaking about what muslims should or shouldnt do ... but it was quite an interesting lecture and it actually opened my mind toward new interpretation of our own tradition. Salam
@@sohaibelazzouzi6553 Allah is a Proper noun, the specific name of your God Allah, allah with the small a is a common arabic noun meaning god.. this is what egyptian Christians you say are referring to. early muslims necause they are arabic just used the term allah and made it the specific name for their(your) god. if they(Christians) used another language (not arabic) it would be clear they are praying to God and not Allah. this is basic.
Interesting. And, as Donner says, this interpretation of origins opens up interesting ecumenical vistas and possibilities of reinterpretation. Further to Donner's comments about "Muslims" (and "Islam") as distinct from "believers" ("Mu'minun") in the text of the Qur'an, I would just add that even the words "Muslim" and "Islam" are not exclusively employed in the Qur'an in the restricted sense these terms later came to acquire (that is, as believers for whom the Qur'an was the primary or uniquely unsuperseded revealed scripture). This is obvious when we consider that various pre-Qur'anic persons are referred to in the text as "Muslims". So, for instance, at one point, the disciples of Jesus say, "We are Mulims" - by which of course they are not understood to mean they are followers of a much later revelation, but simply "Muslims" in the primary lexical sense of "those who submit" [their will to that of God]. This is in fact entirely typical of the Qur'an; indeed, as far as I'm aware, there is really only one verse where "Islam" clearly refers exclusively to the specifically Qur'anic or Muhammadan dispensation of Islam ("al-yawma atmamtu lakum dinakum...").
so, even if you accept that Mohamed was a prophet, you still have the problems of others after him changing the meaning of the Koran later by what the so called "imams". Which are the only ones deemed worthy to tell you whats in them.
idarusskie an imam is the person who leads prayer in a mosque he also gives a lecture on fridays just like sunday lecture for chritians, every muslim can seek the meaning of the quran without needing the aprovel of imams, Muminun is another name for parcticing muslims, Quran contains facts that couldn't be known 100 years ago let alone 1400 years ago, so an illiterate man could not possiblity come up with even the powerful languge of quran let alone those facts.
14. The Desert-Arabs say, “We have believed.” Say, “You have not believed; but say, ‘We have submitted,’ for faith has not yet entered into your hearts. But if you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish any of your deeds. God is Forgiving and Merciful.” 15. The believers are those who believe in God and His Messenger, and then have not doubted, and strive for God’s cause with their wealth and their persons. These are the sincere. Chapter 49, The Chambers
Was the Prophet of Islam an Atheist? Yes the heading will certainly raise some eyebrows but bear with me and please be open minded as I present to you an unconventional but certainly probable exposition on Muhammed, the final Prophet. According to Muslims, Muhammed was a 7th century Arab who received revelations from God through an angel intermediary over a period of 23 years, thus forming the basis of the Quran - a scripture containing all the revelations. But this is where we run into problems. When you open the Quran and read these supposed revelations (from an ALL knowing powerful God) you discover the following irregularities and discrepancies. 1.Verses originating from myths and legends (Syriac Legend of Alexander and The 7 Sleepers of Ephesus ) 2. Verses originating from rejected apocryphal biblical and gnostic sources (The Infancy Gospel of Thomas) 3. Verses lifted straight from the bible (Universe created in 6 days, Camel through the Eye of a needle) 4. Verses that seem to serve the personal whims and fancies of Muhammed (who he can marry, which wife he can spend more time with etc). 5. Verses that keeps repeating immoral intercouse with married female captives.(4:24, 23:1, 70:29, 33:50 etc) 6. Verses that undermines the status of women. (beat them, testimony is worth less than than that of a man, 4 months seclusion) 7. Verses that are confusing and strange (3.7 basically says the entire Qur'an is unclear and if try to understand it you have a disease. 3:81) 8. Verses that places a bizarre emphasis on sexual pleasure for men (and Jinn) in the afterlife (55:56). 9. Verses that provide zero context or explanation (Who is Abu Lahab?) 10. Verses that repeatedly confirm the inspiration, preservation, authority and authenticity of the 7th century bible even though Muslims insist it's been corrupted from the 1st century (3.3, 5:47, 7:157 etc) 11. Verses that are completely wrong on how it depicts science, biology and cosmology. (All alleged scientific "miracles" can be easily refuted using Quran itself) 12. Verses that challenge the reader to its Divinity even though the same challenge can be applied to any book in history. 13. Verses mostly end with a threat of punishment or humiliation for the individual who doesn't submit. 14. Verses that practically copy and paste it's laws from the Jewish Talmud and other scriptures. 15. Verses that has nothing new to say so just repeats the same thing over and over again. 16. Verses that quote biblical characters as if they're 7th century Arabs. 17. Verses that are contradictory (no compulsion in religion vs fight those that those who don't believe) 18. Verses that start and end abruptly, arranged haphazardly and gives no context. 19. Verses that have zero benefit for mankind and if removed affects nothing. 20. Verses that are different to other versions of Qur'an so not perfectly preserved (Hafs vs Warsh) .....and many more. Looking at these issues objectively - one thing becomes absolutely clear - the Quran could NOT have come from an All Knowing and Perfect Divine Source but rather a human/s making standard fallable errors, taking many years to perfect it, but still falling short. >>>So what type of human scribe is this? If this author believed in some kind of Deity or Higher Power that judged him according to his actions, he would NOT be as brazen, confident, arrogant, shameless, narcissistic, fearless and determined enough to fabricate this entire verse revelation fallacy. He'll be far too afraid of the repercussions, yes? Therefore the ONLY conclusion that one can draw is that the author/s of the Quran MUST have been an atheist or at the very least agnostic with zero accountability or culpability for his elaborate campaign.( Notice how the Quran keeps saying - "there is no blame on you" for immoral verses such as 23:1-6, 33:50 and 70:29-30. >>>Now why is the Qur'an essentially a book that implores people to believe in a God that he personally did not believe in? Muhammed noticed one thing that with the Jews, Christians and Pagans and all other groups, that motivated his campaign. The ONLY thing guaranteed to get a large amount of people to follow a single cause is through belief in some type of supernatural Deity that can't be seen or heard. It's the belief/faith that He/It is there that matters. And then proceed to make up countless promises of eternal bliss if you submit to this Deity or a torturous eternal punishment if you don't. How do you think the Christian missionaries managed to spread a complex 3in1 belief that no one understands so rapidly? >>>What was his end game - if not to begin a new religion? Belief in "Allah" is just the deception. The ultimate goal was subjugation and control to get people to submit to your will on the pretext of being a Prophet where you have access to vast amounts of wealth (jizya) and assets (war booty) and copious amounts of sex slaves but do it on the pretext of a Divine instruction. This is what "Allah wants" but ultimately it's me who gets it. (His own child bride Ayesha even declared - your "Lord" rushes to fulfill your desires). Wow. Over the next next few hundred years Muhammads status was honed, shaped manipulated and fabricated into the "best of creations" where he has now achieved an almost God like status, occupying a position closer to your average Muslim than his/her own mother. I'd say he was something of a 7th century religious cult leader many of whom typically still practise their "craft" today.
1:52 there is an early historical recorded account from the ibadhi sect, who branched out of the mainstream first and it was by the prophet's companions. This was before 50yrs unlike the sources quoted relying on sunni traditions which came later
Thank you. I'm glad to get educated in this accessible way. to learn how the origins of islam were very different from what islam became later and is now.
Green 💚 colour hair.. Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions. No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,, Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society. Hum converted SUWARS Hai. Hum KALAMA Padhate hai... Huma-me JAJABA hai... Hum TALAK de sakate hai... Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)... 72 HOORS with big boobs for us... We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)... Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
I met Fred Donner 13 years ago..I assure you that he is a great scholar..he speaks and reads Classical Arabic like no Arabist I have met...he knows his stuff.
I like to know the truth .. but did you all realise he keep on mentioning beutiful picture painted about Muhammad and keep us wondering .. this is what we call careful structured .. to find what are the bad thing about Muhammad (pbuh).. as a scholar he should give example of both cases bad picture and good picture so people can make analysis ..
If you read between the lines, and think carefully about the ends of the idea he is presenting, you would not be very happy about what he presents about Islam, is but my humble opinion.
Interesting to see how initially islam expanded because there was an ambiguity but then once the muslim rulers started to build a working empire, they needed to build a well defined religion to hold it up. And that is when they drew clear cut lines between true muslims and Christians and Jews who, when already in muslim territories had to submit and became second class citizens, and not needed to be conquered with violence.
AI HAVE NOTICED WHEN THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HERE THE SUBJECT, THEY TURN THE VOLUME DOWN WHERE YOU CAN'T HERE IT ON A SMART PHONE, I WISH PHONES HAD AMPLIFIERS, I HAVE MY PHONE IN A BIG CERAMIC BOWL, AND IT HELPS SOME.
I just finished one of his books, then search youtube to know about him more. He is undoubtedly a very good scholar and writer. As a Muslim, I appreciate his research. Thanks a lot for your hard work. I bilive Islam and the Qur'an are certainly not just for Muslims it is the latest revolution from God has sent for all believers and every human beings.
@@uniformityofnature1488 Yes, but it is possible to prove that they are all man-made. Islam acknowledges previous revolutions and says that this is the last revolution for everyone . Islam was sent by God and it is the only holey book that perfectly preserved, it has chain of narration, there is no possibility of being wrong here. No other religion can claim and proved that those r not corrupted by time.
@@psychopeoples4384 Yes according to the standard Islamic narrative that is the case. How do you know it is divine is it because it says so? You know Muslims are the only one that talk about their holy text being persevered and somehow conclude it is the best? For starters Christians and Jews don’t believe their holy books were sent by “God” they acknowledge they are historical sources of events following a particular bloodline of people you could say. The only thing Christians believe that was sent by “God” is Jesus and Jews are yet to receive their gift from “God”. So with the whole book preservation “argument” Muslims are punching the air unfortunately. It doesn’t make sense to me, in no other Jewish or Christian scripture was there ever promise of a whole document such as a Quran, was there ever such a promise? Just because a book is preserved doesn’t mean content is coherent with history, it just means it’s unchanged. I can argue that religion institutions are man made and a product of shifting cultural paradigms and external influences. can’t faith in “God” can be attained through individual reflection and action? I’ve read the Quran and the Bible. Abraham rationally(logically) comes to the conclusion there must be only one source “God”. Does he then make a religion out of it or did that occur over time as a result of human clan mentality? Same with Jesus he literally only comes to educate and warn people of the “religious institutions” he doesn’t introduce a new religion that all happened after his death. Another example is Hinduism a term used by Persians to describe people living beyond the Indus. The British too adopted this term these are all human constructs because people are tribal. Outside “religion” we have nazis, feminists, conservatives, liberals least goes on why is religion and expectation? Shouldn’t we me talking about what values we ought to hold regardless because that is what God represents at the end of the day “values” you cannot personify something that is almighty and not human it’s condemning but it’s the best we can do I get. Why are we talking about social category categorisation? Philosophers and thinkers have been logically coming to the conclusion about morality and science and one God independent of religion. Abraham, Jesus did philosophy just as Socrates and Zarathustra did during different times and at different nations. Islam(Sunni) is only special in the sense it is cultural Arab with Persian influence and maybe of others that came before it. It was specifically narrated to a geopolitical area of the world which had no idea of a monotheistic “God”. The bestowal from on high of this divine writ issues, beyond any doubt, from the Sustainer of all the worlds: and yet, they [who are bent on denying the truth] assert, “[Muhammad] has invented it!” Nay, but it is the truth from thy Sustainer, enabling thee to warn [this] people to whom no warner has come before thee, so that they might follow the right path. 36:2-3 “ to warn this people to warn people to whom no Warner’s have come before thee, so they might follow the right path” The Quran was specifically revealed in Arabic yes? In a particular nations of the world that had yet been susceptive to the idea of monotheism. The were not Arabs yes? Nor were the Hebrews, nor were the Romans/Byzantines all these groups had already been exposed to monotheistism. I believe Muhammad wasn’t the first prophet to be sent The Arabian Peninsula had prophets as well like prophet Salih Lo! We sent unto them two [apostles], and. they gave the lie to both; and so We strengthened [the two] with a third; and thereupon they said: “Behold, we have been sent unto you [by God]!”
Praise be to Allah, the creator. Thank you for trying to be calm and not biased. One thing I noticed is him saying that submission to god means that we are not important and that only God is important. Quran emphasizes that god has chosen and honored the human race through the gift of intellect, and that made us ready to receive his message. Hence, the Quran also emphasizes the use of this gift and states that those who use their intellect and get rid of their ego are at the highest levels of honor and "importance" while those who let their desires and ego drive them are lower than animals that do not even have intellect. Hence, we can honour ourselves or lower ourselves. Our choice.
Well, if one wants to polish the tarnished shield of Islam, he has to be very vague and leave out links to any important sources. Taqiya level critical here. Makes me sick that there are people this dishonest in the world.
@@tiikos8821 you are just a liar like your prophet and your al lah... Nowhere is her age mentioned in the bible... Compare with your aisha the six yo who married your 54 prophet and he put her on his legs.
I read a book about origin of Islam (The Mysterious Persian prophet ) and the author described the detail about Islam and original Mecca in Afghanistan
minute 19:20 When the Qur’an addresses the reader or listener (O believers) and not (O Muslims), this is because the Qur’an addresses all believers in God, Muslims and non-Muslims. The accuracy and eloquence of the Qur’an is greater than the integrity of the speaker and his knowledge of the Qur’an
I agree to an extent however having quickly gone through some hadiths and Sunnahs Christians and Jews were 2nd class citizens. Jews were treated badly and are constantly made to look like villains why?
Very good analysis and impressive Arabic pronounciation. However, I think you put so much emphasis on the distinction between a believer and a muslim. In Arabic the two words may be used as synonyms sometimes, but according to a prophetic tradition, it has been explained that a Muslim's relation to God starts by becoming a Muslim, which essentially consists of obeying the commandments of the Five Pillars of Islam. Next comes "Iman", believing, which is the next step in a Muslim's approaching to God's favor. The concept consists of believing in the existence of God, his angels, his holy books, his prophets, the Latter Day and finally in the existence of fate. The last step is called "Ihsan" I don"t know how to translate this one to English, but I'll try to explain it here. Ihsan is the highest level of faith that a Muslim could strive for, it essentially means worshipping God as if one were sure that He sees their every move. The notion of Ihsan is a little troubeling because it challenges Muslims' belief in God's omnipresence. The perfect Muslim is supposed to remember God in each and every moment of thei lives, that's why if you ever get to meet a really devout Muslim you'd find them repeating mantras (oral prayers) specific to every action they make during the day. There are mantras for when you wake up, when you bath, before you eat, after you eat, while you eat in case you forgot to say it at the beginning, when you go out, when you come back home etc...
@@greenlimabean There are many examples. What I called mantras are generally prayers (Dua'a), but they need to be distinguished from the act of praying "Salat" which is ritual repeated at least 5 times a day by all Muslims. The Dua'a prayers are memorized citations, the work like Christian prayers, I called them mantras because the word "prayer" has 2 different translations in Arabic. Examples of these prayers or mantras are numerous. Before eating or drinking, one is supposed to say "Bismillah - In the Name of God". After eating Muslims are supposed to say "Alhamdulillah - Praise be to God". When waking up, there are collections of prayers and mantras called "Azkaru Sabah - Citations of the Morning"that Muslims memorize and speak them to themselves every morning. These are some minor examples.
Generally his speech is very well and polite about islam , i don't agree with the believers point and how suddenly the muslims let the idea of believers . But i think in the beginning of the islamic message , the christian believes were completely different comparing to what it was in Abdulmalek's time , i don't want to say they had came non believers , but i think they kind of changed a basic things that is islam doesn't accept . The other thing is that islam is a thing and Iman (belief) is another thing as you know , Iman basically is believing in : 1 god 2 god's angels 3 god's books (torah,bible and quran ) 4 god's prophets 5 destiny ( whether good or bad ) 6 and the judgment day . Thanks so much for this lovely video
lol kill the infidels take what your right hand has. Hate Jews, women have half the intelligence of men, throw gays of tall buildings, kill someone if they leave Islam, stone a woman to death for adultery, child marriage, placing Christians/Jews 2nd class citizens. You’re right what is there not to love. Historically differs from secular and other Abrahamic sources e.g. claiming Abraham was Muslim and he built the kabba etc etc
The Quran has a clear verse that is not subject to any scholarly review or interpretation regardless whether those who read it are Moderates, or extremists that defines the guidelines or framework for Muslims dealing with other non Muslims community. It says for those non Muslims who did not engage in military aggression ( picked arms to fight you), did not expell you from your homes, did not aid other in such aggression, you (the Muslims) must not only treat them with equity and fairness, but be extra kind. I used the word extra because Allah used a term called " Birr" in Arabic that term is heavily emphasized in how a person how to treat his or her parents. That verse is in chapter 60 verse 7. All others verses that spoke of harnessing the military efforts to be aggressive and do fight has a historical context to them. You ought to remember that Muslims during Muhammad's era were subjected to numerous attacks, at more than one occasion they nearly became extinct.
If you study Islam it's easy to understand its success and rapid growth the key factors that contributed were 1. The authoritative nature helped rulers to keep an iron hand on their followers. 2. There was no way of opposing the religion which could mean the death penalty. 3. You cannot go out of Islam it's a shirk. 4. There was no room for debate in Islam, unlike other religions. 5. The disrespect to women in Islam also helped it to spread faster. Any ruler or rich person could have any number of wives and children. 6. The state was an army within, once a state was conquered it was easy to kill people of other faith and take over the state on religious sentiments. 7. Great examples of these could be seen in the modern world were in Islamic countries the no of minorities have sharply gone down over the years. 8. Islam is a very political religion.
You're a dumbass. Ignorants like you always have an answer which irregardless of how flawed it is you stick to it just because it originated as you chased a flawed belief
@@hygg1829 the way you speak itself shows your ignorance and disbelief. when people do not have anything on their side the best way is to curse others and kill them.
@@hygg1829 you are 1000 years behind so for you to understand History and modern-day science becomes very difficult. And I bet you cannot even refute any of my points.
@@MrBedmash your points are already not backed by any proof. They are already refuted if you struggle to read Qur'an. But disbelievers like you probably search on google typing "ways to defeat muslims' arguments". If you would have read hadiths and Quran you wouldn't even make this stupid statement.
As a Muslim, I find westerners historical view on Islam interesting, but flawed. The problem they have with dates us due to the pre Islamic Arabs not having a calendar. This improves after Hijra, because this is where the Islamic calendar begins. Also, when our tradition spoke of the Jews in Madinah, the western historians found this hard to believe, as they still have no idea where these Jews came from. And these western historians fail to understand that the early Muslims defeated the Persian empire and the Roman empire. This would be like a group to emerge from Wales, take over the UK and defeat to America and Russia!
Is any of that relevant to the video you are replying to? I assume you watched part or all of it? Feel free to criticize or disagree with the content of the video but I don't see what specific points you are making against THIS video.
The early Arabs had an Oral culture; they would memorize facts and not write it down. So it's understandable that one would not find early records of the Quran; which was kept in the mind and hearts of man.
The early Arabs may've not been keen on writing but what about all the learned cities and communities around them? How come something allegedly so spectacular went unnoticed by all these neighbors for two centuries?
You almost got it right, we hate Islam not people, but since Muslims meaning the people are the one killing people in the name of Allahabad we tend to hate them too
this church that was recently excavated seems to fit the idea of the dhimmi status of Christians in that they were obligated to house and feed and show hospitality to Muslims. So not unusual that you would find a church like this.
A believer is one who believes in God & his messengers, books, angles, destiny & the day of judgment. Islam does not need a single authority as in Christianity.
Excellent! One question: Donner mentions archaeological evidence of old churches featuring both an apse toward the East used for Christian worship, and a prayer niche in the South wall for Muslims to prayer toward their holy city. I wonder if Donner is familiar with Dan Gibson research that seems to show that the early believers did not pray to Mecca but with high degree of likelihood toward Petra. Gibson even proposes that Muhammad and the early believers started in Petra, not Mecca. I wonder what Donner thinks about Gibson’s research?
The quran and the hadiths says that he started at mecca, also it was 14 hundred years ago when they built these mosques if so as you say that there are some mosques werent pointing to Jerusalem then it would be because they didnt have that good geographicalism or anything like that, And some mosques acually point to Jerusalem but they also cross Petra and thats somehow irrelavent, another thing is acually the trading problem that people always point out, There are quit alot of proofs that exists in other places such as old Emirates cities or other cities that exists even further down to yemen or oman, But as we say that mecca was a holy place that guides tgousand sof people there which means it was a larg trading centre, also not to forget that his grave, mosque and his house were at mecca or madina also there is also nearly all the places that were mintioned about muhammad and where he is were in mecca or madina, Sorry of there is any gramatical or spelling mistakes english isnt my first language and thank you, Good bye ,salam!
For those heathens around "They intend to put out the Light of Allah their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it)."
But why are the Abrahamic religions so tribal, favoring such a tiny fraction of the entire world's peoplesb at the time. NO Good Answer other than egotism.
Allah - God Disbelievers - people who do not believe in one God, thus believers or al-mum'inin means muslim, christians and jews. Islam never came to destroy monotheistic religons, Qur'an is a continuation to Bible and Tora. Islam accepts beliefs of other monotheiscic religions if they are true to monotheism in their hearts, words and deeds, and christians and jews can go to paradise according to Islam. If you look at the roots and core of the religion, Islam is probably the most peacefull and most of all tolerant religion.
He's misunderstanding because it's going to say Oh you who believe because it's talking to the people of those who believe in 1 God, etc. It's not going to say Oh you Muslims because it's speaking to the audience that are not all Muslim to get them to understand first before stating it as Islam.
There is no peace in islam. When Mohammad moved from Mecca to Medina he became a grusome warlord who spared no critique, jew or infidel. And some human beings, anno 2014, unbelievably still follow this mans example..! Sad.
How is it that we have text from Aristotle and Plato? Muslims were masters of their historical narratives. There was Abu al Bakhtari, ibn Hisham, Abu Bakr, Ibn Abu Quhafah, al Taymi, and Aishad. All have their own account of the prophet Muhammad. May God increase us all in knowledge.
I dont understand this type of scholarship. This is a type of scholarship that is essentially missing the entire point. Fred Donner should know better than any of us that stories were not documented because the arabic peoples were not peoples who wrote things down. The arabs are a tradition known as an oral tradition. Everything was memorised. The Islamic tradition has various sources of information. 1) The Quran is known as the most authentic source - which he seems to base everything on. 2) The tradition has the Hadith literature which is monumental in the amount. There have been thousands and thousands of sayings of the prophets, and things that he did that have been collected. And these sayings have been scrutinised as to their validity by the early muslim scholars. They have even been graded as to how authentic they were based on how many people have transmitted the same saying from the prophet. There are various sayings that are on the same level of the authenticity of the Quran. And others that are extremely authentic as well. Why doesnt he use any of these? Its half rate scholarship to apply western methods to a civilisation that was clearly different. Disappointing to say the least.
Islam is different from other Abrahamic faiths. Compulsion/submission is the theme of Islam: there is compulsion in the following: prayers, fasting, dress code, pilgrimage, and so on. In Christianity, this is not so...
@@BGdroopy, there's a LOT of people "needing new phones" then. I've got a BRAND NEW phone, (a very good smartphone, made by one of the top companies), & the volume of the video stinks. Why are you 'defending' the video's sound? There's a bunch of you defending it like it's a personal thing. What's up with that?
quite impress even muslims impressed with a good lecture his honest account by fred Donner..the quaran is a basic manual it does tell you to pray but the actual prayer and how to pray practical comes from mohamed via god example there are 5 prayers. and how to stand in prayer what to pray in prostration ..the quran verses are read in prayer
Fred Donner and scholars like him are the real heroes of modern thinking about religion. Calm and thoughtful scholarship is what we need to listen to and learn from. The anger and intolerance in the comments here are tiresome to read and toxic: nothing is as bad and nothing is as good as what is claimed here.
Noah Kennedy I think his style is so boring! I have feeling that he was not sure to study this field.
@Noah Kennedy - Comments like this are conclusive proof that you haven't actually spent any time reading the Quran or hadiths. Or at least you had not when you wrote this comment; RUclips tells me that I am writing 3 years after your comment. Anybody that has read the Islamic scripture, any significant part of it, for it is not necessary to have read all of it; knows that Islam is WORSE that what the people describe in the thread comments. It is truly beyond the imagination of anybody who grew up in the West, unless they have studied it.
Darrius Cole - I doubt you know what you are talking about since no civilization can spread and become dominant as Islam did for so many centuries if its core values were corrupt in the first place. The other commentators in this thread show this level of understanding and nuance. That you don't demonstrates you and your jaundiced views don't belong here.
Unfortunately, I DO know what I am talking about. The values ascribed by the Quran are bad beyond the imagination of the average person born and raised in the US or Europe. If you don't think so then you either 1) Are a muslim yourself or 2) You have not read it. Most muslim people are better than what is allowed in Quran.
Also, the fact that Islam spread does not mean that its underlying virtues are good. Governments with corrupt values become dominant all the time.
And why his views do not belong here? And what the values are, if I can ask that lead to the genocide of Armenians? Islam was dominant because of the military conquests not because of the values it represents.
Having lived in different countries with different beliefs, I can say one thing very clear and loud;very few people are practising their belief. The most of us worship money and power. Regardless of beliefs, we have this phenomenon in common. No difference, quintessential all the time.
So well said.True most time and places.
cant agree more
Wisepersonsay we are not discussing people but a religion.
@@byronwright1612 he is certainly not the same as our God. Mainly (I think) because the socalled angel Gabriel who gave the messages to Mohammad, was not an angel of God and his messages were more diabolical. than anything else. Even M. thought the angel was a demon , in the beginning.
What did Jesus say? 🤔 No one can serve two masters... it's either God is your master or money is your master". The Bible speaks truth once again...................................................
I personally think this man was somewhat fair with his opinion of how Islam started. He tried to stay as respectable as possible being a non-Muslim. NO, HE WONT TELL IT LIKE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL IT BECAUSE A MUSLIM WOULD TELL THE STORY WITH A PASSION OF BELIEF IN ISLAM!
We owe such gratitude to academics, and academic historians in particular, for their consistent search for truth.
One of the most sensible explanations of the origins of Islam,without the bombastic preachings of Islamic scholars who believe they are right and everyone else are infidels and are wrong.
Well, infidels are wrong!
Thanks for the calm and thoughtful analysis. I have to emphasize that your arabic pronunciation is impeccable. Very impressive!
I personally learnt a lot about the history of my own religion.
This is more shocking ruclips.net/video/LygfZXHGk54/видео.html
@Anas Siddiqui So because the Bible is Wrong, do we need to believe in the Quran?... Looks like both are wrong.
@simp hunter Because the Bible has more consistency historically. The Bible was created during a big period of time, when the Quran just in 20 years
@simp hunter Are The stories in the Quran about the prophets correct or not?, because many of them contradict the stories in the Bible.
@simp hunter I think the Bible is more in line with history because it has been written in a big period of time. The Bible shows what the people of different times think about God(s),. In the other side, Quran reinterprets all those histories. Sometimes the Quran took stories and did not know exactly what they mean. Example the word Injil or Messiah. One additional contradiction that I found in the Quran is when they refers to God in first person plural, WE.
Learned a lot from watching this. It is truly amazing how little we know about the past. As a teacher, I try to emphasize the use of primary sources, yet we have so little of them for such big topics like origins of religion.
This is more shocking ruclips.net/video/LygfZXHGk54/видео.html
@@inquisitivemind007 Yep! Muhammad never went to Jerusalem, except in his dreams riding a flying donkey(!). When Islam was young and Muhammad thought that he'd be able to convert the Jews, he had his first disciples (muslims) to pray towards Jerusalem. Of course, the Jews were not very convinced. What did Muhammad do then? He expelled and beheaded all Jews of his hometown, and had the gibla changed from Jerusalem to Medina.
@@attiylanen lies lies lies,it was not a dream but a real journey , see what you are doing is picking and leaving narrative from the hadith which suits your belief , horse was running not flying , Islam wasn't young it always was since Adam
qibla was first put towards jerusalem to remove strong racial felling from the Arab Muslims not impress because it was there since Mecca period when there were no Jews , muslim punished only those Jewish tribes who broked there treaty others were allowed to live , qibla was changed to Mecca not medina
@@saimtanweer5720 wrote: "horse was running not flying" If not flying, then answer me this: why did the 'horse' have wings?
If it was not flying, how could Muhammad make the journey from Mecca to Jerusalem in one single night?
If it wasn't a dream, but a real journey, how is it possible to make the trip from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night on a horseback? Plus, From Jerusalem Muhammad also flew to heaven. How ridiculous can one story be?
But you are correct in this one. I made a mistake: Muhammad did change the qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca, not to Medina. That was my bad. See, I'm able to admit when I make a mistake or when I'm wrong. I've never seen any of your people admit when you're wrong.
Everybody is free to read the whole story about the so-called break of treaty and how it was justified to have Muhammad behead 900 chained POWs in a single afternoon. Just read the Life of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq. It's all there. Don't take my word for it, neither take the word of any muslim. I urge everybody to just read it.
@@attiylanen wings were there 2 move really fast , and it wasn't a horse but a creature named buraq and it was too fast that's why it went to jerusalem to Medina in single night and from jerusalem to heaven was done with Gabriel not buraq correct if I'm wrong , so you can't say God can't do it for his Prophet
Firstly you made another mistake , the judgement for Banu quraiza was given by Saad bin muad who made the treaty between muslim and Jews of Banu quraiza , if prophet would have did it he would have just expelled them from Medina for there treason And it was done according to DEUTERONOMY ch 13 rules
, It wasn't so called break of treaty , it could have caused great loss to muslim , and saad died just few days after this judgement because he was wounded and Jews themselves choosed saad to give punishment for them And Ibn ishaq said 800 not 900 ,don't add extra , secondly his report is doubted by Muslim historian due to several reasons first ibn ishaq is not completely authentic and has some wrong narration , secondly the quran said about that punishment " some you executed and some you took captives " in ch 33 , so it is most authentic , and some other studies show that this large amount of men couldn't have belonged to single tribe and Medina a small city had no place for burial of these many mens and it happened just few hours after battle of trench , so most generally they would have been buried in the trench but report says they were buried in market place which doesn't looks correct because muslim were exausted so they wouldn't have took the pain to dig another grave yard
Definition of believers is given in 3rd chapter, beginning of Surah Al Imran. It says believer is one who believes in one God, all Angels, all holy books, all Prophets of Allah, Judgement day,
Ayah?
I’ve never seen anyone do it better.
try Cira International, have fun . . . ..
@@sylvia7000 cira is just a bunch of liars who twists things to suit tbeir agenda! They've been already exposed by their own people many times!
His Arabic pronunciation is very good!
At what minute did he speak Arabic?
@@naser766 some words like Amir ul momineen, hijra, and one ayat probably.
Great scholar...clam and clear understanding on the topic
Benjamin Park he is a professor of Islam and near eastern studies. He is considered a orientalist scholar. I have his book that I used in seminary called narratives of Islamic origins. His profile in it calls him a scholar 🤔
This is more shocking ruclips.net/video/LygfZXHGk54/видео.html
Excellent presentation.
One weakness is the omission to consider the many fractions, theological debates and disagreement within the christians, and probably jews as well, at the time. E.g. monophytism as pointed out by Prof. Freedman in Yale, also available here.
Thank you for this very informative lecture! I think it is important that we know what we're talking about :) - and it's a great way to discover the lies which are also being passed on in the media and so on, which could easily be used for propaganda etc. Thanks again.
Green 💚 colour hair..
Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions.
No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,,
Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society.
Hum converted SUWARS Hai.
Hum KALAMA Padhate hai...
Huma-me JAJABA hai...
Hum TALAK de sakate hai...
Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)...
72 HOORS with big boobs for us...
We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)...
Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
It was Ernest Renan who said the Islam was born in the full light of history.
the islam give full light of the History :)
May be it was. But considering the large number of enemies the Prophet, considering the inter-Muslim quarrels than began immediately after his death, the probability of history catching the truth was very small.
the stupidest statement ever made by a westerner ,sure he was present at the birth he caught the yawling infant as it burst out of aminas vagina ,also was splashed with all the blood urine amniotic fluid feaces so renan should know,he just forgot to take a selfie
@@syedali7205 the fitna between the ummayads and the hashemites with the ansar struggle put in, makes early islam a historical nightmare.
anyone here have heard of "christian prince" ??.. seek it..
I ageee with a lot of what he says. I was raised Christian and became a Muslim. I dont think they are different religions but the same. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to help bring us back to God's original message that he gave to everyone (so originally Jews and Christians) but their messages changed over time. Thats why i dont like to say "revert"or "convert" since its more like my faith has always been there, but ive come to a better understanding of God's original message. Therefore, this man's lecture with believers and how historical evidence of churches that were split with Muslims and Christians make so much sense
Before converting to islam, you should finish your education. Now your opinion is that of a moron.
@@George-iv1hi yeah, this is the way you get people to buy what you selling.
I converted to islam too.
Y friend became a reborn Christian, and introduced to me the concept of God.
I started to learn Christianity… and then stumbled upon Islam, and the lord of the universe explained to me Christianity better than what current Christianity is. I believe Christian’s are really Muslims, but they don’t want to believe it, but I do, because the lord of the universe taught us this, Jesus was a Muslim too Alhumdulilah
They're actually totally opposed.
There are basically 2 religious systems out there, one based on salvation through faith (Bible Christianity alone) and the other one, where Islam is included with all of the other relions out there, based on salvation through own works, deeds.
No true student of the Bible can ever become a muslim or anything else for that matter since they all lack "The way, The truth and The life".
@@MrCls88 this is a biased opinion, no offense :) every religion will teach "this is the true religion" and devote followers will be convinced their belief is truth. Our job is to research not just what the religion teaches (e.g. does it make sense, is it logical) but the evidence and strength of that religion being true. Christianity has such a beautiful message of love, hope, salvation but when it comes to evidence of reliability, it unfortunately is very weak. Nobody knows who wrote the 4 gospels for example. They were called Matthew mark luke and john in the 2nd century but were written unanimously. Biblical scholars believe the apostle Paul only wrote half the books claimed to be written by him. Biblical scholars also believe peter couldn't have written 1 and 2nd peter because it was written in highly skilled Greek and peter was an illiterate fisherman who spoke Aramaic. Revelation was written by a man named John but not THE John, not one of Jesus's disciples. Ending of mark isn't original, story of the prostitute in John was a 10th century addition....the Christmas stories contradict each other because there is a 10 year gab between King Herod and Quirinius. Shall I continue?
In summary, I sincerely love Christianity. I really enjoy learning about the theology of Christianity (protestant). I listen to Biblical scholars basically every day. But the strength of evidence for Christianity really is weak. At the end of the day, it's not about which religion has the best promises and message. Its about which religion has the strongest evidence of being true. And from several years of research and learning, my conclusion is Islam has the strongest evidence of being true, despite my deep love for Christianity
Very few appreciate a lecture from a person who took the learning and took the trouble to do his best . It is quite clear that more intolerance exists than tolerance and understanding and good- will towards faiths other than one’s own .
Islam is pure intolerance
comes as friend turns out your master
This is more shocking ruclips.net/video/LygfZXHGk54/видео.html
As a Muslim, I feel every religions are man made politics of old. No god wants people to worship them as slaves, only Monarchs of the past wanted people to fear the unknown and obey rules which is not a bad thing politically. God the supreme one is loving and loves us all. Only the supreme one planned everything and will take us all back one day from every living to non living things.
I am a Muslim, and unfortunately many Muslims are afraid of Western scholarship & academia when it comes to the Qur’an or Islam (so too are many Christians & Jews when it comes to their religion), because they think it will invalidate their faith or cause them doubts. But I have to say that I actually find it INVIGORATING and REFRESHING to hear new, open-minded and diverse perspectives and insights that academics have to share. I often find gems that INCREASE my faith when I read their works. You don’t have to accept all of it, but that’s the point-have an open mind and be willing to listen to new perspectives, and be a critical thinker who thinks for themselves. As the Qur’an itself encourages:
*”Those who listen to what is said, and follow the BEST of it. It is **_those_** whom God has truly guided. Those are the ones who possess real intellect.”* _(Qur’an __39:18__)_
Muslims are not afraid of Western Scholarship and academia after all it has had its own scholarships for hundreds of years analysing Islam as well.
What is disconcerting is when bias and prejudice is dressed up as scholarship and academia and sold to unsuspecting poorly educated Muslim populations.
To give you an example : Dr Daniel Brubaker and his book (20 Corrections in the Quran(?)). Although the book itself was not a work of scholarship it was presented as an extension (or extract) of his scholarly thesis. It is clear from the book that Dr Brubaker had already made up his mind about the preservation of the Quran before even listing one so-called "correction".
As i said Muslims are not afraid... and in fact the Quran ITSELF challenges everyone - including scholars and academics - to critically analyse the Quran. If Allah himself is not afraid of academia and scholars why should Muslims be?
Its not really about accepting or not accepting what western academics say. It is about validating their accuracy and truthfulness and eliminating prejudice and bias from their work.
The truth/haqq is from Allah and hence ANY haqq is acceptable to Muslims even if expounded by western academics and scholars. However lies and innuendos presented as truth are strongly rejected.
@@sidprice6214 you said it beautifully
@@afiqmohd1150 Thanks. Its mostly common sense which people don't seem to want to apply.
How does it increase your faith to find out that the whole religion was basically shaped as a political tool?
@@heliosperegrin Methodological naturalism. Do yourself a favor & look up those two words 👍🏼 Take care.
You right Fred, how there be a trinity when there is only One God
Because HE is 3 persons and He can’t lie and has shown Himself to mankind
3 men appeared to Abraham!
All 3 are YHVH.
So either believe God & Abraham
Or call God a liar!
P Harrison the concept of the trinity came 100 years after Jesus the prophet of God. And who came up with it? Unknown people..and one Jewish guy who lied about everything (Paul).
@@P.H.888 Trinity is an invented concept. See Codex Sinaiticus, an old manuscript. You'll see there is no Comma Johanneum. quransmessage.com/articles/trinity%20FM3.htm
@@love1nada1 how can a g0d send down a book and not protect it from corruption? basically 40 different variants of the koran, not qiraats
@@feduntu how is there 40 different variants? This is the first I’m hearing of this.
One can only know the truth about any religion from real world history, not from the perspective of religious lectures.
very poor audio. I have the volume on full and can hardly hear
your device is the problem
My Samsung Galaxy 10s plus is very good. I have the volume set at 3/4.
You have a bad device Bro
You can tell reading most of the comments here that they didn't even bother watching the video.
Yeah because they’re not here in order to learn they’re here to fight.
I am confident as a Christian for being competent enough to follow this discussion through comparison and contrast and the depth of the subject required to listen here, as well other discussions and debates I am following.
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Seems to be truthful and honest, non-biased presentation.
@Al Mudarabah I'm afraid you're incorrect. Your judgement of levels in Islam is A BIG part of modern Islam interpretation. The professor is simply analyzing the Qur'an and is not wrong or said to have missed anything. He also conceded there's no historical evidence from the time of Muhammad. Your submission based on the Qur'an text is already modern Islam.
@@SoftSpeakin6 You're wrong.
@@stephenmurphy1003 and you're a Muslim 😋
Try listening to good scholarly sources such as Dan Gibson’s Sacred City, The Jay Show, Dr. Bill Warner-
@@SoftSpeakin6 damn ok lmao
Very interesting. Thanks a lot Mister Donner!
Yes, a new look to the beginning is needed
Abdullah Al-Selwi
I am a non-practising New York Jew married to a devout Episcopalian Irish man.
We just visited the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. What a magnificent building!
What I’ve found remarkable is that the Shrine of Nabi Yahya bin Zakarya (St. John the Baptist), has been given a special place inside the Sanctuary of the mosque. John, my husband, not the Prophet, has been very proud ever since that he got the chance to visit the shrine dedicated to the eponymous of his namesake, in a Muslim country of all places, far away from his parents’ native Ireland.
@@miriamsackler5002 yahya a.s ,moses a.s jesus a.s ,mohammed s.a.w etc are all prophets and are being respected equally
why? It is all made up bullshit anyway
OMER SERIES is made in which all battles with persian and roman empires are covered .quality is no less than hollywood .consists of 30 episodes
As a Muslim, I appreciate every second of this video. I didn't know even know 10% of this information about my OWN RELIGION. Thank you for this. Truly.
i like it also because it fits more with the concept of mohammad pbuh. i mean the way he treated people
JAMES IRVINE Exactly!!!
It's rubbish.
You should be ashamed of yourself
Don't take information from these dishonest academics. Go to credible sources. They can tell you lot better. We have non Muslim and Muslim testimonials with chain of narrations that no other civilization can boast of. Yet they paint Muslims as dishonest while taking all other historical evidence without enough testimonials.
Biased and racists.
I would like to see a debate between Dr. Donner and Paul Freedman regarding his videos on Islam at Yale.
From the evidenciary texts state the references used within the Koran are quite directly drawn from Judaic Talmud or verbal recitation of the rabbinical traditions.
Truw
No it isn't far from truth. Stop claiming everything Islamic and proof it with evidence which you can't!!!
its almost the complete opposite, the talmud was fully organized in the 11-1300's and jews in arabia adopted many islamic concepts especially the greatest jewish scholar/rabbi maimonides, the Quran is very unique and still held as the highest form of the arabic language, you can hear the very clear distinction from the Quran rhyming and following a clear pattern while the rabbical verbal recitations are just teachings recited
How can it be the highest form of arabic when at the time of writing there wasn't a developed arabic writing system?@@abdouls2386
Sound needs to be at least doubled.
I hear a lot of people stating conflicting opinions about history. I won't bother giving my understanding of history. Do your own study and homework. FIND the truth!
I only need 1 lead for my studies. When they expanded, the weapons they used, where was it made?
The history of Islam is very known..Islam isn't Judaism or Christianity ..all conspiracy theories are crazy and false
Ibn ishak wrote a biography of the prophet 100 hundred years later..ibn ishak were born 74 years after the prophet's death ..ibn ishak biography has a lot of hadith which is a sacred text
@James Wright haha a christian is talking ..You believe in Moses while there is no historical evidence he ever existed or that there were Israelites in Egypt..the existence of Jesus is also very doubtful and alot of historians believed he's a myth ..the oldest manuscripts of the 4 gospels you use is back to the 4th century..we have manuscripts of the Quran which is back very shortly after the prophet's death pbuh
@James Wright Don't talk about datable history and archaeology when you're Christian..that's very embarrassing for you
If you read all the comments here, its as if none of them bothered to watch the video. If not that, then their basically saying they know better than a historian with a PhD who is the director of the center for middle eastern studies at chicago university.
It only takes perseverance to get a PhD. There are a lot of quacks with doctorates. And yes I am sure there are folks on these threads with a better understanding of Islamic history than this fool.
The worst part is he has spent years recovering, translating and documenting 7th century Arabic papyrus' which literally no other living person knows of.
I suppose this guy's second language is Arabic as his pronunciation of Arabic words is perfect which is very rare among westerners. Yes I am an Arabic person.
He study Arabic at the Middle East Centre for Arab Studies (MECAS) in the village of Shimlan, Lebanon.
i think second language is a bit of a stretch, but he's surely studied it. i speak urdu and am muslim, and I've been told i have really good pronunciation, but i can only very vaguely understand it.
@@kehana2908depends who told you you had really good pronunciation.
1. Because people weren't operating in a literary culture, but one of oral tradition and recitation.
2. The Hadiths are alleged sayings which Muslims may choose to take or leave (unlike the Qur'an). Many prefer to leave many of them and simply say they don't agree with them.
Comments section shows that the society is already brainwashed and dont want to listen anything which is opposite to the media. Thanks for this lecture. Here is a verse from Qur'an:
Indeed, those who have believed and those who became Jews and Christians and the Sabians who believe in God and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past]. (2:62)
Go checkout exmuslim spartacus channel if you understand urdu.
Sabean are moon worshippers. Prove more that Allah is al Ilah. All you guys did was take the I out
Is that true? I haven’t read so I don’t know. I don’t care for this man’s atheistic religious perspective, but I appreciate having the opportunity presented to see and read your comment. Peace be with you, brother.
@@orlandothompson4186 you are a living proof of Dunning-Kruger effect
But history has shown Islam has caused 374 million deaths in this world. Still calling Islam peaceful?
An Absolutely wonderful lecture !
Great lecture. Thank you 🙏
Outstanding analysis!!
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Only ten years later since this lecture, we do have rock inscription from the times of prophet's companions, and Fred Donner's own student Prof. Sean Anthony discovered a biography of the Prophet written by his nephew, Urwa ibn Zubair. We are optimistic finding more!
can you send me the sources of the rock inscriptions and the found Biography? I seem to misplace this news on the web
that's bs
Didn't find about any such discovery online. Your sources?
All of you still asking source? I've found it, it's come from their hole when they do bowing between their prayers.
@@sarahprincess1045 The medinan museum in arabic displays such findings, as it is arabic, you will hardly find english news on it
A circuitous if well intentioned effort at a primer of the early days of Islam. Much more compelling and rigorous is the work of Jonathan Brown at Georgetown, who sharpens and challenges the increasingly obsolete methodology of looking at Islam and its history. Viewers would do well too springboard out of this video to Brown's work.
he is putting forward a thesis based on interpretations of early evidence.
That's what historians do, you know.
Or how did you think all that knowledge in history books came about if not through the same process.
Well, his thesis about "same God" and "only one set of equal believers" is dismantled by his very source.
Qur'an Sura 9:29 and 98:6 should be enough, but there is much, much more.
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=98&verse=6
@@ambassadorkees there are too many nonsense in this video.
@Azazel Nicholas fyi, what is left from jews in north Africa when they are praying in arabic they pray to Allah (i am speaking about small, routine prayers like may Allah help you or may Allah be with u etc.)
Also, in Egypt where 10% of the population is Christian, Christians also use the same prayers : may Allah help you and may Allah cure u etc.
I am Muslim, i dont agree with all this professor said, and i didnt like the last 2 min or so when he started speaking about what muslims should or shouldnt do ... but it was quite an interesting lecture and it actually opened my mind toward new interpretation of our own tradition.
Salam
@@sohaibelazzouzi6553 Allah is a Proper noun, the specific name of your God Allah, allah with the small a is a common arabic noun meaning god.. this is what egyptian Christians you say are referring to. early muslims necause they are arabic just used the term allah and made it the specific name for their(your) god. if they(Christians) used another language (not arabic) it would be clear they are praying to God and not Allah. this is basic.
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Bismillah Hir rahman nir raheem
Always begin your day with Fajr prayer and Ayat AL KURSI.
READ QURAN EVERYDAY AND NEVER IGNORE YOUR FIVE DAILY PRAYERS
Interesting. And, as Donner says, this interpretation of origins opens up interesting ecumenical vistas and possibilities of reinterpretation. Further to Donner's comments about "Muslims" (and "Islam") as distinct from "believers" ("Mu'minun") in the text of the Qur'an, I would just add that even the words "Muslim" and "Islam" are not exclusively employed in the Qur'an in the restricted sense these terms later came to acquire (that is, as believers for whom the Qur'an was the primary or uniquely unsuperseded revealed scripture). This is obvious when we consider that various pre-Qur'anic persons are referred to in the text as "Muslims". So, for instance, at one point, the disciples of Jesus say, "We are Mulims" - by which of course they are not understood to mean they are followers of a much later revelation, but simply "Muslims" in the primary lexical sense of "those who submit" [their will to that of God]. This is in fact entirely typical of the Qur'an; indeed, as far as I'm aware, there is really only one verse where "Islam" clearly refers exclusively to the specifically Qur'anic or Muhammadan dispensation of Islam ("al-yawma atmamtu lakum dinakum...").
so, even if you accept that Mohamed was a prophet, you still have the problems of others after him changing the meaning of the Koran later by what the so called "imams". Which are the only ones deemed worthy to tell you whats in them.
idarusskie an imam is the person who leads prayer in a mosque he also gives a lecture on fridays just like sunday lecture for chritians, every muslim can seek the meaning of the quran without needing the aprovel of imams, Muminun is another name for parcticing muslims, Quran contains facts that couldn't be known 100 years ago let alone 1400 years ago, so an illiterate man could not possiblity come up with even the powerful languge of quran let alone those facts.
Nice to hear a well structured lecture
12:28 The volume spikes, I had a feeling there was a problem with his mic...Watch out iof wearing headphones or watching late with speakers...
Richard Wendling
thank you
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14. The Desert-Arabs say, “We have believed.” Say, “You have not believed; but say, ‘We have submitted,’ for faith has not yet entered into your hearts. But if you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish any of your deeds. God is Forgiving and Merciful.”
15. The believers are those who believe in God and His Messenger, and then have not doubted, and strive for God’s cause with their wealth and their persons. These are the sincere.
Chapter 49, The Chambers
Sick explanation
Was the Prophet of Islam an Atheist?
Yes the heading will certainly raise some eyebrows but bear with me and please be open minded as I present to you an unconventional but certainly probable exposition on Muhammed, the final Prophet.
According to Muslims, Muhammed was a 7th century Arab who received revelations from God through an angel intermediary over a period of 23 years, thus forming the basis of the Quran - a scripture containing all the revelations. But this is where we run into problems. When you open the Quran and read these supposed revelations (from an ALL knowing powerful God) you discover the following irregularities and discrepancies.
1.Verses originating from myths and legends (Syriac Legend of Alexander and The 7 Sleepers of Ephesus )
2. Verses originating from rejected apocryphal biblical and gnostic sources (The Infancy Gospel of Thomas)
3. Verses lifted straight from the bible (Universe created in 6 days, Camel through the Eye of a needle)
4. Verses that seem to serve the personal whims and fancies of Muhammed (who he can marry, which wife he can spend more time with etc).
5. Verses that keeps repeating immoral intercouse with married female captives.(4:24, 23:1, 70:29, 33:50 etc)
6. Verses that undermines the status of women. (beat them, testimony is worth less than than that of a man, 4 months seclusion)
7. Verses that are confusing and strange (3.7 basically says the entire Qur'an is unclear and if try to understand it you have a disease. 3:81)
8. Verses that places a bizarre emphasis on sexual pleasure for men (and Jinn) in the afterlife (55:56).
9. Verses that provide zero context or explanation (Who is Abu Lahab?)
10. Verses that repeatedly confirm the inspiration, preservation, authority and authenticity of the 7th century bible even though Muslims insist it's been corrupted from the 1st century (3.3, 5:47, 7:157 etc)
11. Verses that are completely wrong on how it depicts science, biology and cosmology. (All alleged scientific "miracles" can be easily refuted using Quran itself)
12. Verses that challenge the reader to its Divinity even though the same challenge can be applied to any book in history.
13. Verses mostly end with a threat of punishment or humiliation for the individual who doesn't submit.
14. Verses that practically copy and paste it's laws from the Jewish Talmud and other scriptures.
15. Verses that has nothing new to say so just repeats the same thing over and over again.
16. Verses that quote biblical characters as if they're 7th century Arabs.
17. Verses that are contradictory (no compulsion in religion vs fight those that those who don't believe)
18. Verses that start and end abruptly, arranged haphazardly and gives no context.
19. Verses that have zero benefit for mankind and if removed affects nothing.
20. Verses that are different to other versions of Qur'an so not perfectly preserved (Hafs vs Warsh)
.....and many more.
Looking at these issues objectively - one thing becomes absolutely clear - the Quran could NOT have come from an All Knowing and Perfect Divine Source but rather a human/s making standard fallable errors, taking many years to perfect it, but still falling short.
>>>So what type of human scribe is this?
If this author believed in some kind of Deity or Higher Power that judged him according to his actions, he would NOT be as brazen, confident, arrogant, shameless, narcissistic, fearless and determined enough to fabricate this entire verse revelation fallacy. He'll be far too afraid of the repercussions, yes?
Therefore the ONLY conclusion that one can draw is that the author/s of the Quran MUST have been an atheist or at the very least agnostic with zero accountability or culpability for his elaborate campaign.( Notice how the Quran keeps saying - "there is no blame on you" for immoral verses such as 23:1-6, 33:50 and 70:29-30.
>>>Now why is the Qur'an essentially a book that implores people to believe in a God that he personally did not believe in?
Muhammed noticed one thing that with the Jews, Christians and Pagans and all other groups, that motivated his campaign. The ONLY thing guaranteed to get a large amount of people to follow a single cause is through belief in some type of supernatural Deity that can't be seen or heard. It's the belief/faith that He/It is there that matters. And then proceed to make up countless promises of eternal bliss if you submit to this Deity or a torturous eternal punishment if you don't. How do you think the Christian missionaries managed to spread a complex 3in1 belief that no one understands so rapidly?
>>>What was his end game - if not to begin a new religion?
Belief in "Allah" is just the deception. The ultimate goal was subjugation and control to get people to submit to your will on the pretext of being a Prophet where you have access to vast amounts of wealth (jizya) and assets (war booty) and copious amounts of sex slaves but do it on the pretext of a Divine instruction. This is what "Allah wants" but ultimately it's me who gets it. (His own child bride Ayesha even declared - your "Lord" rushes to fulfill your desires). Wow.
Over the next next few hundred years Muhammads status was honed, shaped manipulated and fabricated into the "best of creations" where he has now achieved an almost God like status, occupying a position closer to your average Muslim than his/her own mother.
I'd say he was something of a 7th century religious cult leader many of whom typically still practise their "craft" today.
1:52 there is an early historical recorded account from the ibadhi sect, who branched out of the mainstream first and it was by the prophet's companions. This was before 50yrs unlike the sources quoted relying on sunni traditions which came later
Thank you. I'm glad to get educated in this accessible way. to learn how the origins of islam were very different from what islam became later and is now.
This was a good lecture. I'll be looking for more by Fred Donner.
Green 💚 colour hair..
Islam is formed with Forces, Swords ⚔️, Bullets, Killings, means all are Converted from other religions.
No self ideology,,No laws,, Only Men's are rulling,, Womens are tortured,, Womens are machines for producing 20,30, 50 childrens.. 4/5/6 wives...Talak TALAK Talak 3 words to destroy Women's,,,
Interested in 72 HOORS with very big size Breast....Ladies have no place in society.
Hum converted SUWARS Hai.
Hum KALAMA Padhate hai...
Huma-me JAJABA hai...
Hum TALAK de sakate hai...
Hum HALALA bhee karate hai(enjoyment)...
72 HOORS with big boobs for us...
We can produce 20/30/50 kids , hamara Penis عضو تناسل Powerful Hai(4/6 wives)...
Kya huwa, hamare bachche بچے Pancharwala Beggers Hotel worker Butcher Riksha puller hai to,, JIHADI bhee hai, inshallah....
Very interesting lecture.
I met Fred Donner 13 years ago..I assure you that he is a great scholar..he speaks and reads Classical Arabic like no Arabist I have met...he knows his stuff.
@L B bullshit
His Arabic is so flawless
I like to know the truth .. but did you all realise he keep on mentioning beutiful picture painted about Muhammad and keep us wondering .. this is what we call careful structured .. to find what are the bad thing about Muhammad (pbuh).. as a scholar he should give example of both cases bad picture and good picture so people can make analysis ..
He said that prophet Mohammad has the Quran in a noise but actually the Quran was revealed to him in many ways including the Angel coming to him
If you read between the lines, and think carefully about the ends of the idea he is presenting, you would not be very happy about what he presents about Islam, is but my humble opinion.
What a great speaker with persuasive historical argumentations! I really enjoyed it. Thanks.
Interesting to see how initially islam expanded because there was an ambiguity but then once the muslim rulers started to build a working empire, they needed to build a well defined religion to hold it up. And that is when they drew clear cut lines between true muslims and Christians and Jews who, when already in muslim territories had to submit and became second class citizens, and not needed to be conquered with violence.
Topic begins around 10:30
15:30 = Why we're watching this video.
rubbersole Thank you! ‘Preciate ya!
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AI HAVE NOTICED WHEN THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HERE THE SUBJECT, THEY TURN THE VOLUME DOWN WHERE YOU CAN'T HERE IT ON A SMART PHONE, I WISH PHONES HAD AMPLIFIERS, I HAVE MY PHONE IN A BIG CERAMIC BOWL, AND IT HELPS SOME.
Hear
There is no conspiracy. It is just how it happened to be, and it was later adjusted so there is nothing there but happenstance.
... just put some headphones on
You can turn up your volume or wear earphones lmao
Great video
I just finished one of his books, then search youtube to know about him more.
He is undoubtedly a very good scholar and writer.
As a Muslim, I appreciate his research. Thanks a lot for your hard work.
I bilive Islam and the Qur'an are certainly not just for Muslims it is the latest revolution from God has sent for all believers and every human beings.
There have been other religions after Islam so to say Islam is the latest revelation from God is a false narrative
@@uniformityofnature1488 Yes, but it is possible to prove that they are all man-made. Islam acknowledges previous revolutions and says that this is the last revolution for everyone . Islam was sent by God and it is the only holey book that perfectly preserved, it has chain of narration, there is no possibility of being wrong here.
No other religion can claim and proved that those r not corrupted by time.
@@psychopeoples4384 Yes according to the standard Islamic narrative that is the case. How do you know it is divine is it because it says so? You know Muslims are the only one that talk about their holy text being persevered and somehow conclude it is the best? For starters Christians and Jews don’t believe their holy books were sent by “God” they acknowledge they are historical sources of events following a particular bloodline of people you could say. The only thing Christians believe that was sent by “God” is Jesus and Jews are yet to receive their gift from “God”. So with the whole book preservation “argument” Muslims are punching the air unfortunately. It doesn’t make sense to me, in no other Jewish or Christian scripture was there ever promise of a whole document such as a Quran, was there ever such a promise? Just because a book is preserved doesn’t mean content is coherent with history, it just means it’s unchanged.
I can argue that religion institutions are man made and a product of shifting cultural paradigms and external influences. can’t faith in “God” can be attained through individual reflection and action? I’ve read the Quran and the Bible. Abraham rationally(logically) comes to the conclusion there must be only one source “God”. Does he then make a religion out of it or did that occur over time as a result of human clan mentality? Same with Jesus he literally only comes to educate and warn people of the “religious institutions” he doesn’t introduce a new religion that all happened after his death. Another example is Hinduism a term used by Persians to describe people living beyond the Indus. The British too adopted this term these are all human constructs because people are tribal. Outside “religion” we have nazis, feminists, conservatives, liberals least goes on why is religion and expectation? Shouldn’t we me talking about what values we ought to hold regardless because that is what God represents at the end of the day “values” you cannot personify something that is almighty and not human it’s condemning but it’s the best we can do I get. Why are we talking about social category categorisation? Philosophers and thinkers have been logically coming to the conclusion about morality and science and one God independent of religion. Abraham, Jesus did philosophy just as Socrates and Zarathustra did during different times and at different nations. Islam(Sunni) is only special in the sense it is cultural Arab with Persian influence and maybe of others that came before it. It was specifically narrated to a geopolitical area of the world which had no idea of a monotheistic “God”.
The bestowal from on high of this divine writ issues, beyond any doubt, from the Sustainer of all the worlds:
and yet, they [who are bent on denying the truth] assert, “[Muhammad] has invented it!” Nay, but it is the truth from thy Sustainer, enabling thee to warn [this] people to whom no warner has come before thee, so that they might follow the right path.
36:2-3
“ to warn this people to warn people to whom no Warner’s have come before thee, so they might follow the right path”
The Quran was specifically revealed in Arabic yes? In a particular nations of the world that had yet been susceptive to the idea of monotheism. The were not Arabs yes? Nor were the Hebrews, nor were the Romans/Byzantines all these groups had already been exposed to monotheistism.
I believe Muhammad wasn’t the first prophet to be sent The Arabian Peninsula had prophets as well like prophet Salih
Lo! We sent unto them two [apostles], and. they gave the lie to both; and so We strengthened [the two] with a third; and thereupon they said: “Behold, we have been sent unto you [by God]!”
@@uniformityofnature1488 tldr
@@psychopeoples4384 🤷♂️not my problem
Fred Donner, Sir you really enlighten. Thank you.
Praise be to Allah, the creator.
Thank you for trying to be calm and not biased.
One thing I noticed is him saying that submission to god means that we are not important and that only God is important. Quran emphasizes that god has chosen and honored the human race through the gift of intellect, and that made us ready to receive his message.
Hence, the Quran also emphasizes the use of this gift and states that those who use their intellect and get rid of their ego are at the highest levels of honor and "importance" while those who let their desires and ego drive them are lower than animals that do not even have intellect.
Hence, we can honour ourselves or lower ourselves. Our choice.
allah is the great pimp in the sky according to the believers in islam
I love the comment section for showing us how little understanding they have, but also how much the know🤦♂️
If what you say is true, why then do you not marry the comment section...?
lol I have Muslim friends and yes they are clueless
Not clear or descriptive enough, and also some very essential issues are skipped.
Well, if one wants to polish the tarnished shield of Islam, he has to be very vague and leave out links to any important sources. Taqiya level critical here. Makes me sick that there are people this dishonest in the world.
Very informative and interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Very informative. It answered a question I had for a while.
May I know which question?
@@jenniraisovna5698 How mo ha mad married the six yo aisha
@@esam3477 Marry gave birth to jesus when she was 12... your God 😂
@@tiikos8821 you are just a liar like your prophet and your al lah...
Nowhere is her age mentioned in the bible...
Compare with your aisha the six yo who married your 54 prophet and he put her on his legs.
@@esam3477 Search about it and find the truth. WE DON'T LIE 🙄
We don't worship a god who was a baby....
Thanks very much from SOAS London! ;)
I read a book about origin of Islam (The Mysterious Persian prophet ) and the author described the detail about Islam and original Mecca in Afghanistan
minute 19:20
When the Qur’an addresses the reader or listener (O believers) and not (O Muslims), this is because the Qur’an addresses all believers in God, Muslims and non-Muslims.
The accuracy and eloquence of the Qur’an is greater than the integrity of the speaker and his knowledge of the Qur’an
I agree to an extent however having quickly gone through some hadiths and Sunnahs Christians and Jews were 2nd class citizens. Jews were treated badly and are constantly made to look like villains why?
Very good analysis and impressive Arabic pronounciation. However, I think you put so much emphasis on the distinction between a believer and a muslim. In Arabic the two words may be used as synonyms sometimes, but according to a prophetic tradition, it has been explained that a Muslim's relation to God starts by becoming a Muslim, which essentially consists of obeying the commandments of the Five Pillars of Islam. Next comes "Iman", believing, which is the next step in a Muslim's approaching to God's favor. The concept consists of believing in the existence of God, his angels, his holy books, his prophets, the Latter Day and finally in the existence of fate. The last step is called "Ihsan" I don"t know how to translate this one to English, but I'll try to explain it here. Ihsan is the highest level of faith that a Muslim could strive for, it essentially means worshipping God as if one were sure that He sees their every move. The notion of Ihsan is a little troubeling because it challenges Muslims' belief in God's omnipresence. The perfect Muslim is supposed to remember God in each and every moment of thei lives, that's why if you ever get to meet a really devout Muslim you'd find them repeating mantras (oral prayers) specific to every action they make during the day. There are mantras for when you wake up, when you bath, before you eat, after you eat, while you eat in case you forgot to say it at the beginning, when you go out, when you come back home etc...
🙏🌺
It's good to be musl8
God Bless you
إحسان
Hardcore
Thank you. Can they say original mantras. ?
@@greenlimabean There are many examples. What I called mantras are generally prayers (Dua'a), but they need to be distinguished from the act of praying "Salat" which is ritual repeated at least 5 times a day by all Muslims.
The Dua'a prayers are memorized citations, the work like Christian prayers, I called them mantras because the word "prayer" has 2 different translations in Arabic.
Examples of these prayers or mantras are numerous. Before eating or drinking, one is supposed to say "Bismillah - In the Name of God". After eating Muslims are supposed to say "Alhamdulillah - Praise be to God".
When waking up, there are collections of prayers and mantras called "Azkaru Sabah - Citations of the Morning"that Muslims memorize and speak them to themselves every morning.
These are some minor examples.
Generally his speech is very well and polite about islam , i don't agree with the believers point and how suddenly the muslims let the idea of believers . But i think in the beginning of the islamic message , the christian believes were completely different comparing to what it was in Abdulmalek's time , i don't want to say they had came non believers , but i think they kind of changed a basic things that is islam doesn't accept . The other thing is that islam is a thing and Iman (belief) is another thing as you know , Iman basically is believing in : 1 god 2 god's angels 3 god's books (torah,bible and quran ) 4 god's prophets 5 destiny ( whether good or bad ) 6 and the judgment day . Thanks so much for this lovely video
As Arabic speaker I must say that you are very knowledgeable and very fluent in Arabic.
Despite knowing some arabic, mostly what he said is not very accurate
I like Islam whatever haters say...
lol kill the infidels take what your right hand has. Hate Jews, women have half the intelligence of men, throw gays of tall buildings, kill someone if they leave Islam, stone a woman to death for adultery, child marriage, placing Christians/Jews 2nd class citizens. You’re right what is there not to love.
Historically differs from secular and other Abrahamic sources e.g. claiming Abraham was Muslim and he built the kabba etc etc
allah is the greatest deceiver ever was. so sad to see so many deceived, not willing to look at the origins. God bless us all...
Yeah Islam is nice
I like iSlam Dunk too, the new NBA game from EA. Too bad it was Xbox exclusive though....God bless...
So you approve of pedophilia?
If there are any Muslim believers out there, what do you make of what Professor Donner just presented ?
Watching it and I'll get back to you
Very Good Lecture in Very Simple Way Described. Sweet and To the Point. Thanks...
The Quran has a clear verse that is not subject to any scholarly review or interpretation regardless whether those who read it are Moderates, or extremists that defines the guidelines or framework for Muslims dealing with other non Muslims community. It says for those non Muslims who did not engage in military aggression ( picked arms to fight you), did not expell you from your homes, did not aid other in such aggression, you (the Muslims) must not only treat them with equity and fairness, but be extra kind. I used the word extra because Allah used a term called " Birr" in Arabic that term is heavily emphasized in how a person how to treat his or her parents. That verse is in chapter 60 verse 7. All others verses that spoke of harnessing the military efforts to be aggressive and do fight has a historical context to them. You ought to remember that Muslims during Muhammad's era were subjected to numerous attacks, at more than one occasion they nearly became extinct.
If you study Islam it's easy to understand its success and rapid growth the key factors that contributed were
1. The authoritative nature helped rulers to keep an iron hand on their followers.
2. There was no way of opposing the religion which could mean the death penalty.
3. You cannot go out of Islam it's a shirk.
4. There was no room for debate in Islam, unlike other religions.
5. The disrespect to women in Islam also helped it to spread faster. Any ruler or rich person could have any number of wives and children.
6. The state was an army within, once a state was conquered it was easy to kill people of other faith and take over the state on religious sentiments.
7. Great examples of these could be seen in the modern world were in Islamic countries the no of minorities have sharply gone down over the years.
8. Islam is a very political religion.
You're a dumbass. Ignorants like you always have an answer which irregardless of how flawed it is you stick to it just because it originated as you chased a flawed belief
@@hygg1829 the way you speak itself shows your ignorance and disbelief. when people do not have anything on their side the best way is to curse others and kill them.
@@hygg1829 you are 1000 years behind so for you to understand History and modern-day science becomes very difficult. And I bet you cannot even refute any of my points.
@@MrBedmash says the guy who's probably a white nationalist
@@MrBedmash your points are already not backed by any proof. They are already refuted if you struggle to read Qur'an. But disbelievers like you probably search on google typing "ways to defeat muslims' arguments". If you would have read hadiths and Quran you wouldn't even make this stupid statement.
thanks for your perspective.Very helpful.
History has always had problems with sources as the mediums are not gold.
This is more shocking ruclips.net/video/LygfZXHGk54/видео.html
Jay Smith lectures.. gives some very good explanation into the origins of Islam.
Sure, some people prefer empty entertainment over facts. Each to their own.
The man is a documented fraud.
As a Muslim, I find westerners historical view on Islam interesting, but flawed. The problem they have with dates us due to the pre Islamic Arabs not having a calendar. This improves after Hijra, because this is where the Islamic calendar begins. Also, when our tradition spoke of the Jews in Madinah, the western historians found this hard to believe, as they still have no idea where these Jews came from. And these western historians fail to understand that the early Muslims defeated the Persian empire and the Roman empire. This would be like a group to emerge from Wales, take over the UK and defeat to America and Russia!
Is any of that relevant to the video you are replying to? I assume you watched part or all of it? Feel free to criticize or disagree with the content of the video but I don't see what specific points you are making against THIS video.
The early Arabs had an Oral culture; they would memorize facts and not write it down. So it's understandable that one would not find early records of the Quran; which was kept in the mind and hearts of man.
Chinese whispers, or in this case, Arabic whispers
The early Arabs may've not been keen on writing but what about all the learned cities and communities around them? How come something allegedly so spectacular went unnoticed by all these neighbors for two centuries?
Yet you say the Bible is untrustworthy? C’mon now. Doesn’t the Quran say something about judging with even scales?
@@triggerwarning2982 Both the Quran and the Bible suck at equal measure from a historical perspective.
@Miss O’Genist Yet a documentary desert that spans two centuries after the death of the prophet...
Thank you very much for this video!
This is of gold Value
I liked it. Thank you, Fred.
Wow, lots of haters in these comments.
Religion never fails to bring out the best in everyone.
Muslim604 out nun
You almost got it right, we hate Islam not people, but since Muslims meaning the people are the one killing people in the name of Allahabad we tend to hate them too
@@Matthew-hh6ex lol lol
this church that was recently excavated seems to fit the idea of the dhimmi status of Christians in that they were obligated to house and feed and show hospitality to Muslims. So not unusual that you would find a church like this.
Lol how did you come to that bs conclusion
2 Timothy 3:7
This is more shocking ruclips.net/video/LygfZXHGk54/видео.html
Psalm 19:7
So Islam is a fine tuning of the previous religions rather than a separate endeavor
Ppl change scriptures according to their desires islam is the last nd correct narration of all religions specially abrahami
A believer is one who believes in God & his messengers, books, angles, destiny & the day of judgment.
Islam does not need a single authority as in Christianity.
Excellent! One question: Donner mentions archaeological evidence of old churches featuring both an apse toward the East used for Christian worship, and a prayer niche in the South wall for Muslims to prayer toward their holy city. I wonder if Donner is familiar with Dan Gibson research that seems to show that the early believers did not pray to Mecca but with high degree of likelihood toward Petra. Gibson even proposes that Muhammad and the early believers started in Petra, not Mecca. I wonder what Donner thinks about Gibson’s research?
They are now finding that what is considered Mecca today is probably not the true site of Mecca
The quran and the hadiths says that he started at mecca, also it was 14 hundred years ago when they built these mosques if so as you say that there are some mosques werent pointing to Jerusalem then it would be because they didnt have that good geographicalism or anything like that, And some mosques acually point to Jerusalem but they also cross Petra and thats somehow irrelavent, another thing is acually the trading problem that people always point out, There are quit alot of proofs that exists in other places such as old Emirates cities or other cities that exists even further down to yemen or oman, But as we say that mecca was a holy place that guides tgousand sof people there which means it was a larg trading centre, also not to forget that his grave, mosque and his house were at mecca or madina also there is also nearly all the places that were mintioned about muhammad and where he is were in mecca or madina, Sorry of there is any gramatical or spelling mistakes english isnt my first language and thank you, Good bye ,salam!
For those heathens around
"They intend to put out the Light of Allah their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it)."
But why are the Abrahamic religions so tribal, favoring such a tiny fraction of the entire world's peoplesb at the time. NO Good Answer other than egotism.
Allah - God
Disbelievers - people who do not believe in one God, thus believers or al-mum'inin means muslim, christians and jews.
Islam never came to destroy monotheistic religons, Qur'an is a continuation to Bible and Tora.
Islam accepts beliefs of other monotheiscic religions if they are true to monotheism in their hearts, words and deeds, and christians and jews can go to paradise according to Islam.
If you look at the roots and core of the religion, Islam is probably the most peacefull and most of all tolerant religion.
The "believers" movement theory is highly speculative but the late shift to Islam is obvious, given the sources available.
He's misunderstanding because it's going to say Oh you who believe because it's talking to the people of those who believe in 1 God, etc.
It's not going to say Oh you Muslims because it's speaking to the audience that are not all Muslim to get them to understand first before stating it as Islam.
I love the religion of peace, Islam
There is no peace in islam. When Mohammad moved from Mecca to Medina he became a grusome warlord who spared no critique, jew or infidel. And some human beings, anno 2014, unbelievably still follow this mans example..! Sad.
How the fuck is Islam the religion of peace?
because it the religion of me
and my family and we are so peaceful
Islam is a fraud and evil religion made by the pagan, also evil roman catholic church.
ur ideas bro !!!
Quite a scholarly discussion, interesting.
How is it that we have text from Aristotle and Plato? Muslims were masters of their historical narratives. There was Abu al Bakhtari, ibn Hisham, Abu Bakr, Ibn Abu Quhafah, al Taymi, and Aishad. All have their own account of the prophet Muhammad.
May God increase us all in knowledge.
I dont understand this type of scholarship. This is a type of scholarship that is essentially missing the entire point. Fred Donner should know better than any of us that stories were not documented because the arabic peoples were not peoples who wrote things down. The arabs are a tradition known as an oral tradition. Everything was memorised.
The Islamic tradition has various sources of information.
1) The Quran is known as the most authentic source - which he seems to base everything on.
2) The tradition has the Hadith literature which is monumental in the amount. There have been thousands and thousands of sayings of the prophets, and things that he did that have been collected. And these sayings have been scrutinised as to their validity by the early muslim scholars. They have even been graded as to how authentic they were based on how many people have transmitted the same saying from the prophet. There are various sayings that are on the same level of the authenticity of the Quran. And others that are extremely authentic as well. Why doesnt he use any of these? Its half rate scholarship to apply western methods to a civilisation that was clearly different. Disappointing to say the least.
Hi...the hadith came into existence 239 years after Muhammad's death. Clearly not authentic
A good analysis and presentation.
Islam is different from other Abrahamic faiths. Compulsion/submission is the theme of Islam: there is compulsion in the following: prayers, fasting, dress code, pilgrimage, and so on.
In Christianity, this is not so...
If you took the time to study the history (including the Bible) of the Hebrews/Jews and Christians you will see just how inaccurate your claims are.
Sound too low...too many YT videos suffer from this!
carole Brown-Gambino you need a new phone
@@BGdroopy, there's a LOT of people "needing new phones" then. I've got a BRAND NEW phone, (a very good smartphone, made by one of the top companies), & the volume of the video stinks. Why are you 'defending' the video's sound? There's a bunch of you defending it like it's a personal thing. What's up with that?
quite impress even muslims impressed with a good lecture his honest account by fred Donner..the quaran is a basic manual it does tell you to pray but the actual prayer and how to pray practical comes from mohamed via god example there are 5 prayers. and how to stand in prayer what to pray in prostration ..the quran verses are read in prayer
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Dont you know better how to properly introduce our prophet?