After both yourself and Jessie Gender independently said "Season 2 was one of the best seasons of Trek ever." I had to give it a watch. Did not disappoint. 10/10
They not only managed to redeem one character but two. The writing for both Wesley and Chakotay are fantastic. The feels like a great follow up on Voyager without it taking over the show.
Jellico is what happens when an evil admiral doesn't go rogue. He's totally amoral and focused on the security of the Federation above all other considerations. He is ruthlessly practical about what makes the most sense even if it doesn't feel right to others in Starfleet. He made it clear that he remained as purely pragmatic as ever in S1 when he ordered Janeway to open fire on the Protostar.
That moment when he warmly greets Chakotay and seems genuinely happy to see him right before he snaps back to snarling orders is such a great touch for the character.
Nail on the head, friend. As I mentioned in my own comment, Batman TAS, Avatar The Last Airbender, Ductales 2017, and now Star Trek Prodigy. You described the common element perfectly.
Prodigy has also, more than any modern Trek, cracked that code on season-long story arcs. I'm not normally a binge-watcher, but especially the second half of S2, I found myself excited to see what's next.
My favourite thing has been so much focus on the Federation's, and Starfleet's, ethics. The other shows have all tried, to various degrees, to bend them or show the cracks in them. But they so often don't quite affirm them in the way DS9 managed to do amid its critiques. While Prodigy has to first introduce the concept to skeptical traumatised kids in season 1, and we get to see firsthand the kind of resources they put into education and rescue missions in season 2. They even managed to make the Romulan Evacuation feel more real to me than it ever did in Picard. That's more of a subtextual aspect, rather than direct plot, but it's a thread I think runs through the entire show. Seeing a society actually invest in its citizens, and happily take-on new people as citizens worthy of its investment, is something modern kids sorely need to see modelled after decades of neoliberal nation-state politics.
Yeah even in S3 of Picard a Vulcan just casually asserts utopia logically DEMANDS crime and none of the Starfleet officers present feel the need to challenge that and it’s such a gross abuse of the power the writers were given to create in the Trek sandbox.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting the Mars Attack to hit the _Prodigy_ kids as hard as it did. The closing of the Academy was clearly a direct reference to Covid, and the evaporation of Starfleet's scientific missions felt a lot like how our society rugpulled college grads after 2020-all the opportunities they went into crippling debt for were suddenly, if not gone, then a lot rarer and of fundamentally different natures.
@@GSBarlev I wasn't keen on ending there initially, but I'm hoping the writers mine that regressive societal turn into story thread, how the crew confront it, learn to thrive despite it, etc.
I think the true triumph of Prodigy was how it not only paid respect to what came before with the likes of Janeway, Chakotay and Wesley, but how it also created something new that was equally worth investing in. I’m eager to see the continuing adventures of Dal, Gwyn, Rok, Jankom, Zero, Murf and Maj’el.
Star Trek Prodigy Season 2 is amazing, wonderful, fantastic...looking forward to Season 3 and I hope Admiral Picard is in it. Congratulations Madam Kate Mulgrew and all crew. Live long and prosper.
Showing us something that didn't seem to make sense in episode 1, the escape from Tars Lamora on the unsecured Protostar, then showing us that it does make sense in season 2 was very bold and paid off. If season 2 hadn't been made, most people would have never heard about what they were trying to do.
Steve! I’m 44, I love your videos and now I know why! This show was brilliant and yeah heavy with emotion and lots of respect for the audience and Wil.
That episode where Zero loses his organic physical body was the single most emotionally impactful experience I've ever had watching Star Trek, because of all the setup they did for it. This, from a cartoon show for kids. Just incredible.
@@Dracattack I do like it when characters don't forgive in Star Trek just because it's "greater good." Wesley in this season spent so much time acting like the annoying scientist of the week from TNG. I loved the character, but he'd lived long enough to become someone who Picard reluctantly hosted on his ship long enough for them to screw up an experiment, put the ship in danger, and then get justifiably shouted at.
The only other Star Trek I have seen was lower decks. I finished the show this morning and it blew me away with how good it was.I'm 36 and I don't know much about Star Trek shows and I saw it on Netflix and watched the preview and I thought I have a lot of free time at work why not. After the first episode, I was hooked. I have been recommending it to my family and friends.
I grew up an hour from Bloomington and Janeway is kinda a local hero for young girls like me. So getting such an excellent sequel to Voyager has been genuinely wonderful for me. They treated death and grief in a surprisingly nuanced way too. BTW this is a really thoughtful and well presented review Steve. Really good work!
I never thought that a Nova Squad redemption arc was something I needed so bad until it happened. I jus finished the show tonight an I'm without words. Also, don't diss on that Nick Lacarno Lower Decks episode... that was the best in joke Decks has done imo and I feel was perfect for their show an the theme they were going for.
It had also been built up pretty well with Beckket's arc and that reveal of her knowing nova squadron in school and having the person she looked up to eventually killed on what seemed like a war mission not exploration one.
I do love the consistency of how every series of Star Trek ever made that introduces "elite" cadets shows them being the worst screwups in Starfleet. TNG had Nova Squadron trying to cover up accidentally killing their own member. DS9 had TWO instances, one where the elite team takes a ship and gets so obsessed with fulfilling their orders that they may as well have left Starfleet and become pirates, and another group on Earth being the hatchet team for traitors and infiltrators. PROD is somewhat less harsh, but they're still very hidebound and superior towards our heroes, who have already done more to aid the Federation than the Nova cadets are likely to achieve in their careers depending on what their assignments are.
One of my friends suggested that the reason _Prodigy_ is so well-received is _because_ it's aimed at children. It doesn't feel the need to impress or be edgy and there's subsequently less pressure on it to do so because of its target audience.
All of that. I'd also consider it's more of a * family* show, not just a kids show, which makes it more like 1st & 2nd Gen Trek than most of the new series, which can have some more ... adult themes. I started watching TNG as it aired when I was about 8, and those (maybe not so) subtle moral messages were easy to digest - even when the topic was about big ideas, like war and terrorism. Prodigy tackles those same moral issues, and big ideas, and goes back to telling them through stories that make sense and hit on a personal level. This show would still pass the 80s-early 90s TV censorship. Voyager was the first Trek show I introduced to my nephew, when he was about 6 or 7... and he was later interested in TNG. While I enjoy a lot of DISCO, even through all the things I really, really don't like, and I'm sure he'd enjoy it, it's not one I'll introduce him to until he's a bit older... He'll have to find Picard on his own, as an adult, and I'm not sure how he'll fare with Icheb 😢 I inherited my step-mom's cat after she died - the cat's name is Icheb (she's 16 years old, and my nephew's known her his whole life).
Avatar the Last Airbender, Disney's Gargoyles, and most of the 90's Saturday morning lineup (Batman, Spiderman, X-men) are also good examples of children TV that also do this.
Simply put, it is well written. The writers even put the DEI issue in the show and nobody bats an eye. Why? Because it is well written! There is nothing to hate about this show, ...because it is well written! We care for all characters. My favorite, the heart of the show, is Zero. I love this creature so much, I am freely willing to use the "they/them" acronym for they (despite confusing me most of the time). Angus Imrie is simply put just wonderful in this voice role. And if there is something I'd complain about is the fact, that to this day there is no greenlighting of season 3 (yet).
I think the Mirror Universe segment is the best example of "assuming a starting point of ignorance". Because we see in the earlier part of the episode when the kids split up, and Gwyn's little arm-thingy flashes numbers, it's both setting up what is to come and a foreshadowing of a future scene (Wesley's "I meant it Literally!" scene). That business done the writers take out some toys, and has what is now my favorite joke in Nu-Trek: the Mirror Whales. They feel like an answer that a child would have asked watching the show, "Everything is evil? Even the whales?" They make the beard joke, throw in some youth-appropriate sexual tension, hit all the numbers any other parody would want to land on, while using it as a vehicle to build on the core conflicts, Gwyn's instability, the cracks in time, and the season wide plot of the paradox. It felt like someone said "Okay if we were hopping universes which ones would we see?", rather than the starting point of "Let's go to the Mirror Universe". The fact that they land in the universe where the Protostar destroyed the Federation also makes it feel like less of a fan wank, that's the one that sets up the stakes and differences. The MU is more like a detour after that.
@@coffeeblack7520 The mirror universe is so campily evil, too. Mirror Janeway's first reaction is, "I thought we made it impossible to cross!" and Chakotay didn't even bother suggesting they just seal the rift and go back to their own universes to pretend it hadn't happened. Because no one in the mirror universe thinks that way.
I feel like the difference between Lower Decks doing legacy characters versus Star Trek Picard is that Lower Decks is fully aware that they are dangling keys in front of its audience and that is part of the joke. Characters in the show are getting all excited like fan boys/girls/stans when a legacy character shows up in the same way people in the real world do, and that's part of the joke. Most legacy characters are irrelevant to Lower Decks, but that's because the Cerritos is unimportant so they get excited when they can bask in the limelight of others. That said, they have used some legacy characters well like Kira, Quark, and Nick Locarno. With Locarno, he's story is in service to Mariner's arc to finally grow up and accept her own leadership potential which she had been running from.
In fairness "treating its audience of adults like children" is what you do when your audience of adults (the vocal ones that you hear from) act like children, which. . . yeah. . . that's a lot of fandom right now.
I know what you mean. The hard core fans are tripping over the small things. Sure there was some hit and miss writing, but there was some really bad TNG episodes too.
@@cpt.walker6273 more than half. DS9 got better. Last season of TNG was good, the last couple episode but i remember a few fillers as well. Last episode was stellar.
ST Prodigy season 2 is a masterclass in story plotting and character arcs. The show also respects its legacy characters where other modern shows misuse and mistreat legacy characters. RIP Icheb and Hugh.
Ah Hugh. What a disaster. Didn’t even make sense for drama’s sake. Were he still alive he would have been horrified at Seven jacking in as a Queen and enslaving the remaining Borg to her will, even if it was the only way forward, their debate on it would have been epic. Like any ethical quandary from Trek. Instead we had padding elsewhere to meet their subscriber locks and they just permanently threw away a character. Who didn’t even get to reconnect with Geordi the human that literally helped him back from being Borg, who in any sane narrative would be the second person Picard would have ethically been required to contact upon learning of Data having daughters. Just terrible self indulgent edgy writing and it’s worst sin was it was bad with easy fixes.
Star Trek: Prodigy feels like that redheaded step child that was left ignored by the network left to its own devices allowing it to go as weird and as wild as it wants but without the excessive costs of creating a live action show. I absolutely enjoyed the show.
It's odd how some sources claim CGI is more expensive but others say live-action is. I guess really good detailed CGI is expensive, like seen on Transformers: Prime.
I also liked seeing Jelico. He was also 100% correct with the limited information he had. Which is the best kind of incorrect. A good way to portray a good Admiral.
Exactly what you said about treating their audience like adults. Like many millenials, i was 7 or 8 years old when I started watching Star Trek with my family. Sure, most of the content went over my head being that young - but not understanding the show is why I kept coming back to it. The older I became, the more I understood and found different layers of appreciation. The 8 year old me liked the cool ships, phasers, weird aliens, and outer space stuff. The 40 year old me likes the social commentary, the evolving concepts of exploration and progress. Star Trek is the mystery box that kids need where every step of their lives, it'll reveal a new truth and appreciation.
I’m 34, been a Trekkie for like 13 years or so. Watched prodigy with my 6 (almost 7 year old) and he fucking loved it. Season 1 when it came out he wasn’t big on, but we recently watched season 2 and he loves it! And honestly, It’s easily the best new era trek show.
Great video and insights! Another aspect is that children's animated media is SO GOOD right now. There are so many fantastic animated kid's shows that have incredible depth of character development and storytelling. When you look at the past 10 years or so and consider the greats like Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Over the Garden Wall, The Owl House, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Avatar: Legend of Korra, etc., you can see that if a show wants to compete in the animated kids' landscape, they need to be GOOD.
I have come to realize that nostalgia is rarely all it's cracked up to be. That's because we remember things as an edited and better version of what they actually were. It's the reason so many shows and movies that rely solely on nostalgia fail miserably. There's a quote from Spock in Amok Time, used in a different context, that nevertheless applies well to this situation: _After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true._
Yeah, I was going to say that Locarno was a bad example for that, they definitely played on that character being that character. Could they have used a new character instead? Sure, but you could argue the same for all legacy character uses.
Yeah. I agree with Steve on a lot of the Lower Decks fanservice. It does often lean too much into it. I'm not a fan for example of the whole thign with the voyager cheese or whatever. But Locarno fit well into the role of that story and as a villainous foil for Mariner that season.
I disagree about Gomez. I enjoyed her appearance on Lower Decks, to the point that the “for some reason” comment took me by surprise. Like…was it not clear she was an illustration that even messy ensigns could exist, their awkwardness could be played for humor, and they can still go on to do great things? It wasn’t a character type started by LD by any means.
The Picard tie ins were the worst part imo. Every time the shipyard was mentioned was cringe inducing since it only further cements that depressing timeline as canon.
Crazy how much better Prodigy did with Picard as a background plot than Picard did with itself as the main plot. I actually liked seeing ongoing events in Star Trek affect one another (of course prodigy ended up in development hell greatly increasing the distance between the two shows) and personally the attack tying into the end and ruining their "happy ending" felt so powerful and real to me. We actually got to see how scary that was from the perspective of kids just trying to go to starfleet and how it had massive negative impact on starfleet as a whole. Also kudos to the writers because I instantly could tell it was from another show even having avoided Star Trek Picard after like the first episode (I'm actually a little mad at Prodigy for writing it so well I went and skimmed through Picard season 1 and 2; that wasn't very fun).
It might have been INTENDED for children, but like a lot of that genre (Narnia, Hunger Games, etc), it has plenty to offer adults as well. I've also found a lot of the "adult" offerings on streaming these days consist of Unhappy People in Horrible Situations Treating Each Other Unpleasantly(tm), while the youth-oriented offerings still have some sense of optimism and often feature strong friendships, trust, and hope - and Prodigy has that in spades, even while exploring difficult subjects and emotions. I think adults need some more of that, too, and that's why youth-oriented offerings - the good ones at least - are popular with us older folks too. But that's my take. On streaming, though, this show can be dangerous. I, too, binge-watched it, first with my husband, who sensibly went to bed after a certain point, but I found I couldn't go to bed on a cliffhanger... yeah. If you know the second season you know where this is going. I was up irresponsibly late because of this show.
If this franchise lasts another 60 years (and I hope it does) I am so stoked for the young kids who are getting into Trek through this show. What an introduction and what a fantastic series in general. I am also 44 and lifelong trek fan and this is some of the best trek we have seen in a long time
I enjoy Lower Decks, but it's not because I'm obsessed with Star Trek trivia. I consider myself a casual viewer of 90s Trek. I just like it because it's funny. I haven't seen much of Prodigy, but based on what I've learned about it, I think it's kinda wild that it's primarily marketed as a kids' show.
I enjoy watching Lower Decks more than Prodigy (it just hits my tastes more.). I think it has good stuff going on outside the references. Prodigy is worth the watch though, despite it being aimed at kids. It doesn’t talk down to its audience.
Really unique and beautiful artwork. Some of the space scenes were movie-worthy, imo. My only quibble is with the actual animation (motion) of the characters - I wish it were a little smoother. But it's a minor complaint in an otherwise amazing show.
I just finished Season 2 and I loved it. The reveal of Westly was so delightfully confusing at first I actually paused the show and was like "WHHHHAAATTT???' And then he was great and integrated into the story PERFECTLY. The stories were interesting the character arcs were interesting. It tied up the over arcing story nicely. I liked it a lot. Says a 38 year old.
One of the ways in which animation has an advantage over live action is its depiction of alien life forms. Getting characters of different size, shape, and phisiology that would be challenging and expensive in live action. Zero, Rok, Jankom, Murph, Adreek, and heck Gillian the whale. The visual decisions that they are also able to make with the planets they visit are stunning and add to the overall aesthetic of the show vs the way that live action just visits planets with different set dressing buildings and streets
This is what Kurtz Trek and Abrams Trek tried to be yet failed be, space opera but with intelligence storytelling and great characters all the while being a Star Trek story. Prodigy is the Star Wars Rebels of Trek basically. Chakotay story is how they should handled Luke in the last Jedi, and Wesley was awesome and managed to redeem the character by making him into Doctor Who of the David Tennant verity. The Loom were basically were Stephen King's Langoliers but on the final frontier. This season sold me on this show, despite it being a kid show, it was surprising mature.
You can’t dig on the cameo character in lower decks, because they’re not jingling Keyes at the audience, they’re doing it at the characters. The main characters of lower decks are the ultimate fans. They just know all the stories that we know from reading/listening to the logs of the people they admire, as opposed to watching Star Trek.
The main characters of Lower Decks being written like people who watch Star Trek rather than people who are actually living in the world of Star Trek is, in itself, a form of jingling the keys at the audience, which also facilitates further jingling of the keys. Lower Decks is key-jingling all the way down.
@@SteveShives Completely disagree. Is a comedic show, it has a different sensibility. Just the fact you dont like it doesn't mean it doesn't work. I agree with a lot of your video, but please don't get to far into yourself.
I think those scenes would make more sense if they were mixed in with them being just as excited about characters places and events that were never mentioned before. Ideally many people would think, "was there a star trek radio series that only broadcast in romania in 1986, no it was just made up for that scene and its ever mentioned anywhere else, still cool, get me some socks its time to explain what happened myself." It what happened to the handful of hero ships it the most interesting stuff in the whole galaxy it makes the world seem smaller and the writer seem less creative and lacking confidence. Steve's starfleet Jobs series is a good example of expanding the world without waiting for the canon to get there and bring across that all the stories that have told a few particularly sparkly pebbles on a whole beach.
The Hageman brothers knew their audience and carefully walked the line between storyline continuity versus fresh new directions. It's a total sleeper hit. It deserves way more credit and accolades versus the messy production that was DISCO.
Well Chakotay is a Captain now so yeah..... Difference between Chakotay and Ricart is Ricart was a womanizer, he love jazzed he had peronality. Chakotay in Voyager was very 2 Dimensional. They actually gave him depth but his historical debth is literally him living under the shadow of Captain Janeway which made him lame. So yeah his boringness as being a second in command is actually part of his character development within the show.
Thanks for this. I've watched a few of your videos in the past, but this was the one that made me subscribe. I appreciate your cogent exploration of how Prodigy has excelled. I hope other franchises take note of the lesson.
I was five years old when I discovered TOS (reruns) and TNG (first run+reruns) in syndication. I was hooked. As a little kid I didn't understand everything going on, but the broader themes were always appealing, and I never felt like I was being insulted or demeaned OR overlooked. Prodigy is the ONE show of the current five Treks that hits that same feeling. (SNW comes closest of the others). That's why Prodigy is as good as it is. Because at Trek's core, the message is "ALL are welcome in this place", and Prodigy is the one show written to the same message and written for ALL audiences.
I would love to see season 2 of Prodigy get several Emmy nominations and hopefully wins. I feel this show is that good, and yes with many past Emmy winning shows has one of the best of what makes a good Emmy winning show just that, a show as Steve comments here, “Speaks up to it’s audience, and not down @ them.” Or in other words treats their audience as though they have some intelligence. Netflix, Paramount, Nickelodeon are you listening and seeing this comment when it comes to submitting material for the Emmys next year?
Steve's exactly right that the handling of legacy characters is handled better BECAUSE it's targeting an audience that doesn't know these characters. Just being there isn't enough for these kids who don't have a clue who they are. Take my kids for example. They started watching Star Trek with Prodigy and they got to know holographic Janeway and Admiral Janeway purely from this show rather than Voyager...and now Voyager is the one classic Trek they're most interested in watching because they now know her as a character. They made both versions of Janeway an interesting enough character in their own right on Prodigy without having to rely on "Hey, look who it is!" Chakotay did kind of have that sort of feel last year, along with The Doctor's tease at the end, but they both ended up getting fleshed out in season 2 to establish themselves in Prodigy specifically...The Doctor less so, but he was used much like the other limited comedy-relief character Dr. Noum (and to an extent, Commander Tysess in the first part of the season), so I don't see it as entirely egregious since it fit the same mold as some of the other characters rather than just being a cameo for cameo's sake.
I remember that feeling as a kid ... when you find out a character/actor you liked existed before this thing you've seen them in, and going back to "discover" what they did back then ❤ Love it. Actually, I had it with Kate Mulgrew, because I just loved her Janeway character so much. For characters, seeing Spock & Scotty on TNG made me more interested in TOS ... though, admittedly, the bold colours of the show could never quite appeal to my attention for long (I still enjoy the movies and novels). I don't think either either of those examples equate quite the same effect as seeing these old adults with a parental presence of a show I love as they were in their "youth" (still old, to kids), when they all first meet eachother 💕 ... they might be a little disappointed by Chakotay though 😅 They made him so good here, as a character and as a presence (he's so lean and rugged!), they won't know what to think! Please come back and share their reaction!
Finished season two tonight. Immensely satisfying. Was not expecting that final reveal, and yet I felt it was perfect - because it was earned. I thought "Oh, of course. Yes. That's just as it should be." Really hope they get a third season. Even if not, these two seasons will stand among the best that Star Trek has to offer. Even the inspirational speeches were great. This is the show I was most skeptical about when I first learned of it. Now it's among my favourites.
I really have to wonder how many great stories get lost from live action because of the technical aspects? One of the liberating things about animation is that they can accommodate such things which I think makes it easier for the creative teams to let loose and take risks across the board.
On your reccommendation, I watched Prodigy; just finished Season 1. OMG I love it! It IS good! Great, complex characters, interesting, complicated story - but not too complicated - totally entertaining. Everything you said. Looking forward to S2, thanks!
Prodigy is so clever in so many ways. No one has noticed the way it deals with typical Star Trek violence so it's suitable for children. Having Murf be the security officer means the violence is actually very comical and unrealistic - much like Looney tunes and Road Runner. He's very bendy and stretchy and nimble and so the violence is not intimidating or frightening. Very skillful handling of something which could have caused issues with parents
The story-telling was just better, especially when you consider Prodigy is under the constraints of where they are in the timeline and managed to be leaps and bounds above the live action offerings. Pacing was pretty good and did not feel like there was much "filler" like NuTrek suffers from. Great job from the Prodigy Team!
Episodic storytelling is your friend when you have to fill an episode count. The problem with modern streaming is episode orders are all about keeping subs locked in for a certain number of months not to tell the story in as long as it takes (like early in house Netflix where most of what they made was at least quality). So they threw away the one advantage of streaming and went right back to old network methods….but threw away how creatives navigated that with interchangeable self contained episodes and so they stretch a thin movie plot into 6-10 hours of visual media. How much better could Disco and Picard had been if we had a random stuck in the Holodeck episode or stranded on a planet episode that only involved 1-2 characters so we could get invested and have them get a “win” without referencing some meta plot where everyone has to periodically get dumb so the story doesn’t just end right now. Ie all we get fed now are losses by our protagonists and antagonists not compelling wins and so the narratives always fall flat.
I never felt like Lower Decks was "jingling their keys" with familiar characters. They've had quite a lot, but unlike either Prodigy *or* Picard, it's a very episodic show (most episodes are a fully self-contained story), and in each episode that features characters from past series' it seems to me like they usually play an important role in that episode's story. It also tends to feel like the perfect show if you *do* want to just cram in as many character cameos as you can, considering it's a parody that's subverts Trek "tropes" which inevitably include the ones associated with particular characters (like Q showing up at the end of an episode to bother the main characters only to be met with "get out of here Q, no, we are done with random stuff today, we're not dealing with any of your Q bullsh*t" and "go find Picard" which I thought was pretty funny). Kind of the whole point of the show is the self-aware humor and I imagine it'd be a lot harder to pull off without all the cameos.
@@keit99 Yeah, I've disliked Discovery and Picard, but I think Lower Decks is a lot more respectful toward the rest of the franchise than either of them. Even the third season of Picard that a lot of Trek fans seemed to like felt too pandering to me, even if it did have some good nostalgic moments.
I do wonder if LD simply feels more Trek to me than the rest of these shows just because it *is* episodic. When I put on a classic Trek episode, from ToS to Enterprise, I expect to see a full story, and very rarely does it fail to deliver. And only extremely rarely do I have to watch more than a second episode.
I think the difference is Wesley was a cameo in Picard, which even felt like it was filmed last second, while his role in Prodigy was built specifically around that character. I figure his Picard cameo was created just because Korre's actress didn't want to be in season 3.
Lower Decks wears what it is very clearly on its sleeve. The show is basically more about fandom than it is about Trek itself. So I don't mind all the things Steve hates about it - they make sense in that show. 1,000% agree that Picard is mostly embarrassingly bad, though.
Ditto that, it too often feels like Steve finds fault in Lower Decks simply for being exactly what it set out to be: a goofy, shameless, self-parodying *comedy* show, made by and *for* the ultra-hardcore Trek geeks. If the show's style simply isn't his cup of tea, which he's said before, then that's perfectly fair, but that doesn't mean the show is actually doing anything wrong. Even then, when Lower Decks uses obscure nostalgic references, they're usually just for inconsequential background gags or quick one-liners and stuff like that, scattered amongst a sea of original, non-referential jokes to boot. When legacy content *does* get more focus, more often than not it's used to tell genuinely good, episodic stories, rather than trying to use nostalgia as a *substitute* for a story the way Picard S3 did. The way S4 brought back Nick Locarno and turned him into a villain, for example, felt like a funny yet believable endgame for the character which I thought was very cleverly done. Likewise for somewhat smaller cameos like Sonya Gomez or Sulu in their brief, story-contributing roles. Yes it's still fanservice, but as far as I see it, it's fanservice *done right.* Need I also mention that Lower Decks is the only one of the modern shows where the main characters are all original to that show, without a single "legacy" character in the bunch? Granted there's also stuff like the Mugato episode, but realistically they can't all be winners...
Same and other replies have explained my reasons for me. Lower Decks knows it's just a celebration of everything Star Trek that came before it and doesn't hide it and actually plays into it very well. It's also really grounded by its original character cast all of whom have great core traits and fantastic development.
In Episode 9 around 15:20, Wesley mentions about the Temporal Wars. I wonder if he was involved with Enterprise and the mystery time guy who spoke to the Suliban. Episode 4 02:15 if you look into Murph's eyes, you'll see a dark outline of someone who represents something similiar to the mystery time guy who spoke to the Suliban in Enterprise.
At 26:13 Steve says that Prodigy is the first Star Trek series aimed at kids. I would argue that Star Trek the animated series from the 1970s was also aimed at kids originally shown on Saturday mornings with all the other cartoons. Their target audience was definitely children.
I would call Prodigy a "family" cartoon rather than a "children's" cartoon. I know that sounds like semantics but children's cartoons are the ones targeted solely at children (think Dora the Explorer) while family cartoons are designed to be appreciated by both children and their parents. I think most of my favorite media is actually "family"-targeted, and Prodigy one great example of why: it can't try to hide bad writing with tawdry sex and violence because that's not appropriate for children, it can't hide bad writing with memberberries because the kids aren't old enough to remember what is being called back to, and yet it still needs to be able to entertain children, teenagers, and adults, so you're forced to actually write solid stories or fail. Star Trek Prodigy, My Adventures with Superman, The Owl House, Infinity Train, Avatar the Last Airbender (original version), Pixar films in their golden age, Animaniacs, Warner Brothers cartoons in their golden age, and more are all great examples of works where the writing is solid because you needed to make it work for audiences of all ages instead of treating you audiences like morons.
I would say the Doctor showing up makes sense. Of course the main person to treat the Doctor like "a real boy" would be the person who watched him grow as a person. Im not sure anyone else would treat the Doctor with such respect. So while he may not be needed to progress the story, I do believe it was a nice way to show Janeways character.
The first time I saw Prodigy mentioned, the "Nickelodeon" subtitle put me off, but I had to check it out since it's part of Trek. It didn't take me long to appreciate how well it was written and how compelling the stories were. I was glad to see season two finally released and am about three quarters of the way through it. Still impressed with the show and glad to see it on Netflix. Keep up the good work!
Fun Fact: In German TV, the orininal Star Trek series was shown as a kids show. The synchronisation was a fair bit lighter and not as serious. And certain scenes were cut out. For me that was a good start into Star Trek.
When my nieces were very young, they wanted to watch Star Trek with me. Their mom okayed it as long as I chose a kid -friendly episode. The Way to Eden seemed like a harmless, goofy episode. When we got to the end with the pain and death, I thought, "Oh, fuck! I've traumatised them". I was about to go into comfort mode when a tiny voice piped up, "Oh, good, the annoying one died". Kids are hardier than we sometimes think, is what I'm saying.
I liked th LD Locarno story; it worked for me because the bloody Voyager writers kept confusing the Paris and Locarno back stories and the LD storyline finally cleaned up the canon by clearly delineating between the two.
This show seems to make people feel the same way I do about Star Wars Rebels. By no means perfect, but overall a really thoughtful and emotionally mature take on the material that ended up far better plotting than nearly every live action series since.
As much as I absolutely LOVED the use of Wesley, he might as well have been played by David Tennant, because his character pretty much was The Doctor in demeanor, scripting, and costume.
I'm torn because yeaaaaah it was a lil too much like dr who but to be fair 1. kids show and 2, like steve said, a personality like that would most likely be the result of being time traveling who doesn't see reality the same way anymore
Wes is totally different now to the character we knew on TNG - he is basically a Time Lord at this point, in fact even more "powerful" since he has "powers" what with the whole thought thing and able to travel to every kind of dimension, timeline and universe apparently.
It's funny you say that because about a decade ago, Wil Wheaton said his personal headcanon for what happened to Wesley after _TNG_ is that he became a Timelord. Guess his dream came true!
I suppose it could be a bit disappointing to hardcore Wesley fans, if they couldn't recognise him as the same character But it's not surprising that they went that way. A really large section of the fanbase loves Will Wheaton, but hated original-flavour Wesley. This performance felt like an exaggerated version of Will Wheaton's own public persona, the one that's gotten him so much love in the past few decades. And personally I think I had more fun watching that than I would have had watching something that was truer to early-Wes
One thing that excites me about a potential season 3 is that having the Doctor around after the synth attack on Mars is going to give us a (good) look at what the experiences of a synthetic life form will be during this time in Federation history. It would almost certainly be better than the bad Mass Effect rip off that was Picard season 1.
Prodigy is the most Star Treky show I have seen in a while. I really enjoyed watching it and found it better than earlier Lower Decks seasons. More heartwarming. And like in Anime, it treats children like adults.
Something to consider is that Prodigy got to be the length of a pre-streaming Star Trek season. it had a lot more TIME to do stuff that modern trek isnt allowed because 'streaming shows must be short' or some such nonsense.
I don't always agree with you (for example, I like Lower Decks, though the fan service can be a bit much), but you hit the nail on the head here. The producers think that they can use references to existing Trek to guarantee an audience, but at the same time that can limit your audience to people who get the references if you don't handle it correctly. As you've mentioned several times, I would love to see a Trek show do something entirely new. Maybe a mid-25th century show with all new characters.
I keep commenting as I get through the material. Although the episodes are shorter, having 20 short episodes makes each episode that much better; So does a complete season drop all at once. I think it works better being able to catch all of the story in one or two settings as chapters. Very good show! Thanks Steve ❤
Season 2 blew me away. Not only do I think it's one of the best seasons of Trek, I think it's one of the best TV shows I've ever seen (I'm about 40 and have watched a LOT of TV in my life, so a large basis of comparison). I also can't believe how good it is. I really hope enough people catch on so that we'll get more, AND so that the rest of modern Trek might get some ideas
I managed, growing up, to watch/discover Star Trek in the right order, Voyage first, then TOS, TNG and then DS9. But this meant that going back to Voyager is disappointing as it wasn't as good as I remembered. Though I do have to say that Progidy has finally given me a Janeway and more importantly Chakotay that is how my teenage brain remembers them, and honours them as characters.
All the 'keys" used here as you say .. are shaken just enough to help open the door wider into this universe we have known and lived in for so many years ... we are happy to return to so many things that make sense with what we have expirienced as an audience over decades.
Steve, I'm older than you and watched season 1 when it came out. I'm looking forward to season 2. Agree with your points about treating the audience with respect. You should have also mentioned great opening theme in the show. So much better than in other Trek shows.
Very spot on analysis, I especially love your point about treating a young audience like adults. I will defend Lower Decks a bit b/c, while it is a fan service and easter egg heavy show, I usually think it's handled well. I like that it rewards long time fans who actually get the references, and the show balances it by presenting these elements in a new way or analyzing the Star Trek universe in a comedic way. I also really like the characters and their storylines, plus the show is a lot of fun (unlike some modern Star Trek content). There are definitely episodes where I recognize that I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much without the references, and I get that its style just isnt for everyone.
Prodigy really isn't a children's show. It's a family show, something that everyone can enjoy watching together.
It was so good. My kids and I loved it!!!
After both yourself and Jessie Gender independently said "Season 2 was one of the best seasons of Trek ever." I had to give it a watch. Did not disappoint. 10/10
the main issue now is, that prodigy is cancelled.
let's see if it stays cancelled or if it gets renewed.
Ok, now I have to watch!!!
I still wanted a seen where Beverly opened a darkened room and we hear Wesley's voice say, "Hi mom" 🥺
Now I have to watch it!
They are NOT WRONG! It absolutely is!
@@robertheinrich2994it really seems like they ended at a logical conclusion. I don’t see a season 2 in the future sadly
I love that Wesley - the prodigy from _TNG_ - gets to be a mentor to the characters on _Prodigy._
I enjoyed shouting "shut up, Wesley!" at the screen. But with love.
@@Mallory-Malkovich 👍
he got a role that he deserved. that's the really important part.
And they somehow made it work to play him straight, as EXACTLY the character his detractors complained about. I really loved this show.
Wesley: Uh, oh. Forgot to make this universe large enough to contain the Prodigy. Mom will kill me.
"Made for children" means, "Better written than fiction aimed towards adults who forgot when they were children."
That's deep.
They not only managed to redeem one character but two. The writing for both Wesley and Chakotay are fantastic. The feels like a great follow up on Voyager without it taking over the show.
Chakotay totally needed a meaningful role. Loved that they finally did that and righted a wrong from Voyager.
I really like Jellico continuing to be the most professional yet abrasive to our cast as possible lol
Agreed
Jellico is what happens when an evil admiral doesn't go rogue. He's totally amoral and focused on the security of the Federation above all other considerations. He is ruthlessly practical about what makes the most sense even if it doesn't feel right to others in Starfleet. He made it clear that he remained as purely pragmatic as ever in S1 when he ordered Janeway to open fire on the Protostar.
As an adult now, working as a public servant first responder, he reminds me of management 😑
That moment when he warmly greets Chakotay and seems genuinely happy to see him right before he snaps back to snarling orders is such a great touch for the character.
@@kaydb42 Heh he does channel “annoyed Beverly Hills PD chief” energy pretty well
You're spot on about treating children like adults; this is almost always the hallmark of good animation, and ST:P is a great example of this.
Nail on the head, friend. As I mentioned in my own comment, Batman TAS, Avatar The Last Airbender, Ductales 2017, and now Star Trek Prodigy. You described the common element perfectly.
I remember Kate Mulgrew and the creators talked about exactly this in their appearances leading up to season 1.
Prodigy has also, more than any modern Trek, cracked that code on season-long story arcs. I'm not normally a binge-watcher, but especially the second half of S2, I found myself excited to see what's next.
Prodigy being the first show to explain turbolifts to me immediately made me pay attention
Right?!? I was like, wait, I'm not at "reading tech manuals" level, what is this physics? 😂
Paramount producers dismissed Prodigy as a cartoon kids show, so they kept their fingers out of the pudding. THAT'S what made the difference. 🙂🖖
My favourite thing has been so much focus on the Federation's, and Starfleet's, ethics. The other shows have all tried, to various degrees, to bend them or show the cracks in them. But they so often don't quite affirm them in the way DS9 managed to do amid its critiques.
While Prodigy has to first introduce the concept to skeptical traumatised kids in season 1, and we get to see firsthand the kind of resources they put into education and rescue missions in season 2. They even managed to make the Romulan Evacuation feel more real to me than it ever did in Picard.
That's more of a subtextual aspect, rather than direct plot, but it's a thread I think runs through the entire show. Seeing a society actually invest in its citizens, and happily take-on new people as citizens worthy of its investment, is something modern kids sorely need to see modelled after decades of neoliberal nation-state politics.
Yeah even in S3 of Picard a Vulcan just casually asserts utopia logically DEMANDS crime and none of the Starfleet officers present feel the need to challenge that and it’s such a gross abuse of the power the writers were given to create in the Trek sandbox.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting the Mars Attack to hit the _Prodigy_ kids as hard as it did. The closing of the Academy was clearly a direct reference to Covid, and the evaporation of Starfleet's scientific missions felt a lot like how our society rugpulled college grads after 2020-all the opportunities they went into crippling debt for were suddenly, if not gone, then a lot rarer and of fundamentally different natures.
@@GSBarlev I wasn't keen on ending there initially, but I'm hoping the writers mine that regressive societal turn into story thread, how the crew confront it, learn to thrive despite it, etc.
My nephew Thomas (currently age 10) and I have been watching and enjoying Prodigy together since it premiered. It is a wonderful, shared experience. 😊
I think the true triumph of Prodigy was how it not only paid respect to what came before with the likes of Janeway, Chakotay and Wesley, but how it also created something new that was equally worth investing in.
I’m eager to see the continuing adventures of Dal, Gwyn, Rok, Jankom, Zero, Murf and Maj’el.
Yeah they added to the band and it worked out great. That alone deserves praise. But the rest of it was outstanding
I love these kids! It took a while with Dal, but he grew on me 💜
Star Trek Prodigy Season 2 is amazing, wonderful, fantastic...looking forward to Season 3 and I hope Admiral Picard is in it. Congratulations Madam Kate Mulgrew and all crew. Live long and prosper.
Prodigy really is well woven tale, like a sweater!
Showing us something that didn't seem to make sense in episode 1, the escape from Tars Lamora on the unsecured Protostar, then showing us that it does make sense in season 2 was very bold and paid off. If season 2 hadn't been made, most people would have never heard about what they were trying to do.
I saw this in a meme the other day, but that orange sweater weasleys wearing? Same on that he was wearing the first time he met the Traveler
I noticed that too!
Where No Sweater Has Gone Before.
Nice catch. Easter egg? Call back? Inside joke among the travelers?
His orange jumper and brown leather jacket also means he's dressed very similarly to another time traveller's most recent incarnation
All I know is I want that jumper. :-)
Steve! I’m 44, I love your videos and now I know why! This show was brilliant and yeah heavy with emotion and lots of respect for the audience and Wil.
That episode where Zero loses his organic physical body was the single most emotionally impactful experience I've ever had watching Star Trek, because of all the setup they did for it. This, from a cartoon show for kids. Just incredible.
The best part is Zero is legitimately pissed they lost their body to Wesley's plan with no consent on their part
@@Dracattack I do like it when characters don't forgive in Star Trek just because it's "greater good." Wesley in this season spent so much time acting like the annoying scientist of the week from TNG. I loved the character, but he'd lived long enough to become someone who Picard reluctantly hosted on his ship long enough for them to screw up an experiment, put the ship in danger, and then get justifiably shouted at.
The only other Star Trek I have seen was lower decks. I finished the show this morning and it blew me away with how good it was.I'm 36 and I don't know much about Star Trek shows and I saw it on Netflix and watched the preview and I thought I have a lot of free time at work why not. After the first episode, I was hooked. I have been recommending it to my family and friends.
I grew up an hour from Bloomington and Janeway is kinda a local hero for young girls like me. So getting such an excellent sequel to Voyager has been genuinely wonderful for me. They treated death and grief in a surprisingly nuanced way too. BTW this is a really thoughtful and well presented review Steve. Really good work!
I never thought that a Nova Squad redemption arc was something I needed so bad until it happened. I jus finished the show tonight an I'm without words. Also, don't diss on that Nick Lacarno Lower Decks episode... that was the best in joke Decks has done imo and I feel was perfect for their show an the theme they were going for.
It had also been built up pretty well with Beckket's arc and that reveal of her knowing nova squadron in school and having the person she looked up to eventually killed on what seemed like a war mission not exploration one.
“Doesn’t he look a lot like Tom Paris?”
“I don’t see it.”
“How can you not see it? They have the same face?!”
I do love the consistency of how every series of Star Trek ever made that introduces "elite" cadets shows them being the worst screwups in Starfleet. TNG had Nova Squadron trying to cover up accidentally killing their own member. DS9 had TWO instances, one where the elite team takes a ship and gets so obsessed with fulfilling their orders that they may as well have left Starfleet and become pirates, and another group on Earth being the hatchet team for traitors and infiltrators. PROD is somewhat less harsh, but they're still very hidebound and superior towards our heroes, who have already done more to aid the Federation than the Nova cadets are likely to achieve in their careers depending on what their assignments are.
One of my friends suggested that the reason _Prodigy_ is so well-received is _because_ it's aimed at children. It doesn't feel the need to impress or be edgy and there's subsequently less pressure on it to do so because of its target audience.
All of that. I'd also consider it's more of a * family* show, not just a kids show, which makes it more like 1st & 2nd Gen Trek than most of the new series, which can have some more ... adult themes. I started watching TNG as it aired when I was about 8, and those (maybe not so) subtle moral messages were easy to digest - even when the topic was about big ideas, like war and terrorism. Prodigy tackles those same moral issues, and big ideas, and goes back to telling them through stories that make sense and hit on a personal level.
This show would still pass the 80s-early 90s TV censorship. Voyager was the first Trek show I introduced to my nephew, when he was about 6 or 7... and he was later interested in TNG. While I enjoy a lot of DISCO, even through all the things I really, really don't like, and I'm sure he'd enjoy it, it's not one I'll introduce him to until he's a bit older... He'll have to find Picard on his own, as an adult, and I'm not sure how he'll fare with Icheb 😢 I inherited my step-mom's cat after she died - the cat's name is Icheb (she's 16 years old, and my nephew's known her his whole life).
And in doing so they pander to us all completely!
Avatar the Last Airbender, Disney's Gargoyles, and most of the 90's Saturday morning lineup (Batman, Spiderman, X-men) are also good examples of children TV that also do this.
Simply put, it is well written. The writers even put the DEI issue in the show and nobody bats an eye. Why? Because it is well written! There is nothing to hate about this show, ...because it is well written! We care for all characters.
My favorite, the heart of the show, is Zero. I love this creature so much, I am freely willing to use the "they/them" acronym for they (despite confusing me most of the time). Angus Imrie is simply put just wonderful in this voice role.
And if there is something I'd complain about is the fact, that to this day there is no greenlighting of season 3 (yet).
I think the Mirror Universe segment is the best example of "assuming a starting point of ignorance". Because we see in the earlier part of the episode when the kids split up, and Gwyn's little arm-thingy flashes numbers, it's both setting up what is to come and a foreshadowing of a future scene (Wesley's "I meant it Literally!" scene). That business done the writers take out some toys, and has what is now my favorite joke in Nu-Trek: the Mirror Whales. They feel like an answer that a child would have asked watching the show, "Everything is evil? Even the whales?" They make the beard joke, throw in some youth-appropriate sexual tension, hit all the numbers any other parody would want to land on, while using it as a vehicle to build on the core conflicts, Gwyn's instability, the cracks in time, and the season wide plot of the paradox.
It felt like someone said "Okay if we were hopping universes which ones would we see?", rather than the starting point of "Let's go to the Mirror Universe". The fact that they land in the universe where the Protostar destroyed the Federation also makes it feel like less of a fan wank, that's the one that sets up the stakes and differences. The MU is more like a detour after that.
Yes, this! I wondered why I liked the Mirror Universe here - I usually find it incredibly boring. 😂 Thank you for putting this into words!
@@coffeeblack7520 The mirror universe is so campily evil, too. Mirror Janeway's first reaction is, "I thought we made it impossible to cross!" and Chakotay didn't even bother suggesting they just seal the rift and go back to their own universes to pretend it hadn't happened. Because no one in the mirror universe thinks that way.
I feel like the difference between Lower Decks doing legacy characters versus Star Trek Picard is that Lower Decks is fully aware that they are dangling keys in front of its audience and that is part of the joke. Characters in the show are getting all excited like fan boys/girls/stans when a legacy character shows up in the same way people in the real world do, and that's part of the joke. Most legacy characters are irrelevant to Lower Decks, but that's because the Cerritos is unimportant so they get excited when they can bask in the limelight of others. That said, they have used some legacy characters well like Kira, Quark, and Nick Locarno. With Locarno, he's story is in service to Mariner's arc to finally grow up and accept her own leadership potential which she had been running from.
In fairness "treating its audience of adults like children" is what you do when your audience of adults (the vocal ones that you hear from) act like children, which. . . yeah. . . that's a lot of fandom right now.
I know what you mean. The hard core fans are tripping over the small things. Sure there was some hit and miss writing, but there was some really bad TNG episodes too.
@@cpt.walker6273 more than half. DS9 got better. Last season of TNG was good, the last couple episode but i remember a few fillers as well. Last episode was stellar.
ST Prodigy season 2 is a masterclass in story plotting and character arcs. The show also respects its legacy characters where other modern shows misuse and mistreat legacy characters. RIP Icheb and Hugh.
Ah Hugh. What a disaster. Didn’t even make sense for drama’s sake. Were he still alive he would have been horrified at Seven jacking in as a Queen and enslaving the remaining Borg to her will, even if it was the only way forward, their debate on it would have been epic. Like any ethical quandary from Trek. Instead we had padding elsewhere to meet their subscriber locks and they just permanently threw away a character. Who didn’t even get to reconnect with Geordi the human that literally helped him back from being Borg, who in any sane narrative would be the second person Picard would have ethically been required to contact upon learning of Data having daughters. Just terrible self indulgent edgy writing and it’s worst sin was it was bad with easy fixes.
Star Trek: Prodigy feels like that redheaded step child that was left ignored by the network left to its own devices allowing it to go as weird and as wild as it wants but without the excessive costs of creating a live action show. I absolutely enjoyed the show.
It's odd how some sources claim CGI is more expensive but others say live-action is. I guess really good detailed CGI is expensive, like seen on Transformers: Prime.
Prodigy Season 2 has a case for being one of the best stories told in the franchise. It’s fantastically done and I had an absolute blast binging it.
I also liked seeing Jelico. He was also 100% correct with the limited information he had. Which is the best kind of incorrect. A good way to portray a good Admiral.
Exactly what you said about treating their audience like adults. Like many millenials, i was 7 or 8 years old when I started watching Star Trek with my family. Sure, most of the content went over my head being that young - but not understanding the show is why I kept coming back to it. The older I became, the more I understood and found different layers of appreciation. The 8 year old me liked the cool ships, phasers, weird aliens, and outer space stuff. The 40 year old me likes the social commentary, the evolving concepts of exploration and progress. Star Trek is the mystery box that kids need where every step of their lives, it'll reveal a new truth and appreciation.
Prodigy redeemed Janeway, Chakotay and Traveller Wesley. That's a miracle.
Bravo 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
They didn't need redemption and that's the only reason people like the show if it didn't feature any legacy characters it wouldn't be so liked
'Cause well written! *sings "The power of wriiiitiiiiiing!" kekekekekeke 😘 You know what I did there. 😉
I’m 34, been a Trekkie for like 13 years or so. Watched prodigy with my 6 (almost 7 year old) and he fucking loved it. Season 1 when it came out he wasn’t big on, but we recently watched season 2 and he loves it! And honestly, It’s easily the best new era trek show.
Great video and insights! Another aspect is that children's animated media is SO GOOD right now. There are so many fantastic animated kid's shows that have incredible depth of character development and storytelling. When you look at the past 10 years or so and consider the greats like Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Over the Garden Wall, The Owl House, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Avatar: Legend of Korra, etc., you can see that if a show wants to compete in the animated kids' landscape, they need to be GOOD.
I have come to realize that nostalgia is rarely all it's cracked up to be. That's because we remember things as an edited and better version of what they actually were. It's the reason so many shows and movies that rely solely on nostalgia fail miserably. There's a quote from Spock in Amok Time, used in a different context, that nevertheless applies well to this situation:
_After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true._
That sweater? It's the same orange sweater he wore in at least 2 episodes of TNG!
Came to mention that. It's basically just a minor glow up of his original look!
Prodigy made Chakotay watchable. Watchable and interesting.
CHAKOTAY.
CHAKOTAY.
This series is amazing.
LOL. You're right.
AND they made Wesley Crusher fun and cool - to my kids at least - who love watching him. And I admit he makes for a much better animated character.
i was amazed they were able to restore Wesley crusher
I also like to imagine that somewhere during prodigy Harry Kim is still an ensign somewhere.
Poor dumb Harry.
In the best possible way I got a kind of _Star Trek_ version of _Doctor Who_ vibe from Wesley. And I loved it.
@@HasturBeta likely a time displaced clone
I always had faith in Wesley.
Started this on a whim recently. Surprised at how enjoyable it is overall. I actually find it better than any of the current live action.
I’d argue they used Locarno in a substantive enough way in this reappearance, but agreed about Gomez and Picard-Wesley
Yeah, I was going to say that Locarno was a bad example for that, they definitely played on that character being that character. Could they have used a new character instead? Sure, but you could argue the same for all legacy character uses.
Yeah. I agree with Steve on a lot of the Lower Decks fanservice. It does often lean too much into it. I'm not a fan for example of the whole thign with the voyager cheese or whatever. But Locarno fit well into the role of that story and as a villainous foil for Mariner that season.
I disagree about Gomez. I enjoyed her appearance on Lower Decks, to the point that the “for some reason” comment took me by surprise. Like…was it not clear she was an illustration that even messy ensigns could exist, their awkwardness could be played for humor, and they can still go on to do great things? It wasn’t a character type started by LD by any means.
Great analogy with the keys, and excellent use of them to make the point.
One more…the attack on mars belongs to Prodigy now. It made the future for those kids have a great purpose way beyond The world building of Picard. ❤
The Picard tie ins were the worst part imo. Every time the shipyard was mentioned was cringe inducing since it only further cements that depressing timeline as canon.
@@WaylandYT You really missed the point of the OP.
Crazy how much better Prodigy did with Picard as a background plot than Picard did with itself as the main plot. I actually liked seeing ongoing events in Star Trek affect one another (of course prodigy ended up in development hell greatly increasing the distance between the two shows) and personally the attack tying into the end and ruining their "happy ending" felt so powerful and real to me. We actually got to see how scary that was from the perspective of kids just trying to go to starfleet and how it had massive negative impact on starfleet as a whole. Also kudos to the writers because I instantly could tell it was from another show even having avoided Star Trek Picard after like the first episode (I'm actually a little mad at Prodigy for writing it so well I went and skimmed through Picard season 1 and 2; that wasn't very fun).
It might have been INTENDED for children, but like a lot of that genre (Narnia, Hunger Games, etc), it has plenty to offer adults as well.
I've also found a lot of the "adult" offerings on streaming these days consist of Unhappy People in Horrible Situations Treating Each Other Unpleasantly(tm), while the youth-oriented offerings still have some sense of optimism and often feature strong friendships, trust, and hope - and Prodigy has that in spades, even while exploring difficult subjects and emotions. I think adults need some more of that, too, and that's why youth-oriented offerings - the good ones at least - are popular with us older folks too. But that's my take.
On streaming, though, this show can be dangerous. I, too, binge-watched it, first with my husband, who sensibly went to bed after a certain point, but I found I couldn't go to bed on a cliffhanger... yeah. If you know the second season you know where this is going. I was up irresponsibly late because of this show.
When you write for children you have to be good, you can't just appeal to nostalgia, sexual tension and edge.
I like how the first prodigy is a big focus of star trek prodigy
If this franchise lasts another 60 years (and I hope it does) I am so stoked for the young kids who are getting into Trek through this show. What an introduction and what a fantastic series in general. I am also 44 and lifelong trek fan and this is some of the best trek we have seen in a long time
I think Lower Decks and Picard are not comparable. That Locarno episode is great. "He looks like Tom Paris". Sure. LD builds on that meta humor.
I would say Picard season 3 was perfect. Well written. Fantastic send off to the TNG we never got.
@@cpt.walker6273 So was that episode of Lower Decks. It's honestly shocking to learn that there's negativity about them.
I enjoy Lower Decks, but it's not because I'm obsessed with Star Trek trivia. I consider myself a casual viewer of 90s Trek. I just like it because it's funny. I haven't seen much of Prodigy, but based on what I've learned about it, I think it's kinda wild that it's primarily marketed as a kids' show.
I enjoy watching Lower Decks more than Prodigy (it just hits my tastes more.). I think it has good stuff going on outside the references. Prodigy is worth the watch though, despite it being aimed at kids. It doesn’t talk down to its audience.
I would kinda forget the show was animated whenever Wes was on screen. The art direction and s fantastic.
Really unique and beautiful artwork. Some of the space scenes were movie-worthy, imo. My only quibble is with the actual animation (motion) of the characters - I wish it were a little smoother. But it's a minor complaint in an otherwise amazing show.
I dunno. I loved the show, but the animation kept low-key triggering the Uncanny Valley, for me.
@@borkabrak Yeah, it looked like CGI claymation!
I just finished Season 2 and I loved it. The reveal of Westly was so delightfully confusing at first I actually paused the show and was like "WHHHHAAATTT???' And then he was great and integrated into the story PERFECTLY. The stories were interesting the character arcs were interesting. It tied up the over arcing story nicely. I liked it a lot. Says a 38 year old.
I'm 68 and love Prodigy, especially now it embraces the complexity of time paradoxes in DETAIL.
I’m 40 and this show just blew me away. From never hearing about it to binge watching both seasons in the last 3 days. What an epic ride!
One of the ways in which animation has an advantage over live action is its depiction of alien life forms. Getting characters of different size, shape, and phisiology that would be challenging and expensive in live action. Zero, Rok, Jankom, Murph, Adreek, and heck Gillian the whale. The visual decisions that they are also able to make with the planets they visit are stunning and add to the overall aesthetic of the show vs the way that live action just visits planets with different set dressing buildings and streets
This is what Kurtz Trek and Abrams Trek tried to be yet failed be, space opera but with intelligence storytelling and great characters all the while being a Star Trek story. Prodigy is the Star Wars Rebels of Trek basically. Chakotay story is how they should handled Luke in the last Jedi, and Wesley was awesome and managed to redeem the character by making him into Doctor Who of the David Tennant verity. The Loom were basically were Stephen King's Langoliers but on the final frontier. This season sold me on this show, despite it being a kid show, it was surprising mature.
I had a feeling that it was Wesley talking to Gwyn when she put in the code in her time armband but it was still so exciting to see his reveal.
I was hoping for reformed shadow archer
@@protoroc When Murf was talking to hologram Wesley, my first reaction was "holy smokes, it's Future Guy!" Who might be Wesley for all we know :p
You can’t dig on the cameo character in lower decks, because they’re not jingling Keyes at the audience, they’re doing it at the characters. The main characters of lower decks are the ultimate fans. They just know all the stories that we know from reading/listening to the logs of the people they admire, as opposed to watching Star Trek.
The main characters of Lower Decks being written like people who watch Star Trek rather than people who are actually living in the world of Star Trek is, in itself, a form of jingling the keys at the audience, which also facilitates further jingling of the keys. Lower Decks is key-jingling all the way down.
@@SteveShives Completely disagree. Is a comedic show, it has a different sensibility. Just the fact you dont like it doesn't mean it doesn't work. I agree with a lot of your video, but please don't get to far into yourself.
I think those scenes would make more sense if they were mixed in with them being just as excited about characters places and events that were never mentioned before. Ideally many people would think, "was there a star trek radio series that only broadcast in romania in 1986, no it was just made up for that scene and its ever mentioned anywhere else, still cool, get me some socks its time to explain what happened myself." It what happened to the handful of hero ships it the most interesting stuff in the whole galaxy it makes the world seem smaller and the writer seem less creative and lacking confidence. Steve's starfleet Jobs series is a good example of expanding the world without waiting for the canon to get there and bring across that all the stories that have told a few particularly sparkly pebbles on a whole beach.
The Hageman brothers knew their audience and carefully walked the line between storyline continuity versus fresh new directions. It's a total sleeper hit. It deserves way more credit and accolades versus the messy production that was DISCO.
They actually managed to make Chakotay interesting? Well damn I gotta watch this now
It's true. They took the Chakotay character and said, "let's make him a person" and they did.
@@AstriaStarwynd this is crazy talk. A person? That goes against everything Chakotay stood for,
Well Chakotay is a Captain now so yeah..... Difference between Chakotay and Ricart is Ricart was a womanizer, he love jazzed he had peronality. Chakotay in Voyager was very 2 Dimensional. They actually gave him depth but his historical debth is literally him living under the shadow of Captain Janeway which made him lame. So yeah his boringness as being a second in command is actually part of his character development within the show.
This was the arc he was so badly robbed of on VOY.
Thanks for this. I've watched a few of your videos in the past, but this was the one that made me subscribe. I appreciate your cogent exploration of how Prodigy has excelled. I hope other franchises take note of the lesson.
I was five years old when I discovered TOS (reruns) and TNG (first run+reruns) in syndication. I was hooked. As a little kid I didn't understand everything going on, but the broader themes were always appealing, and I never felt like I was being insulted or demeaned OR overlooked.
Prodigy is the ONE show of the current five Treks that hits that same feeling. (SNW comes closest of the others).
That's why Prodigy is as good as it is. Because at Trek's core, the message is "ALL are welcome in this place", and Prodigy is the one show written to the same message and written for ALL audiences.
I would love to see season 2 of Prodigy get several Emmy nominations and hopefully wins. I feel this show is that good, and yes with many past Emmy winning shows has one of the best of what makes a good Emmy winning show just that, a show as Steve comments here, “Speaks up to it’s audience, and not down @ them.” Or in other words treats their audience as though they have some intelligence. Netflix, Paramount, Nickelodeon are you listening and seeing this comment when it comes to submitting material for the Emmys next year?
Steve's exactly right that the handling of legacy characters is handled better BECAUSE it's targeting an audience that doesn't know these characters. Just being there isn't enough for these kids who don't have a clue who they are.
Take my kids for example. They started watching Star Trek with Prodigy and they got to know holographic Janeway and Admiral Janeway purely from this show rather than Voyager...and now Voyager is the one classic Trek they're most interested in watching because they now know her as a character. They made both versions of Janeway an interesting enough character in their own right on Prodigy without having to rely on "Hey, look who it is!" Chakotay did kind of have that sort of feel last year, along with The Doctor's tease at the end, but they both ended up getting fleshed out in season 2 to establish themselves in Prodigy specifically...The Doctor less so, but he was used much like the other limited comedy-relief character Dr. Noum (and to an extent, Commander Tysess in the first part of the season), so I don't see it as entirely egregious since it fit the same mold as some of the other characters rather than just being a cameo for cameo's sake.
I remember that feeling as a kid ... when you find out a character/actor you liked existed before this thing you've seen them in, and going back to "discover" what they did back then ❤ Love it. Actually, I had it with Kate Mulgrew, because I just loved her Janeway character so much. For characters, seeing Spock & Scotty on TNG made me more interested in TOS ... though, admittedly, the bold colours of the show could never quite appeal to my attention for long (I still enjoy the movies and novels). I don't think either either of those examples equate quite the same effect as seeing these old adults with a parental presence of a show I love as they were in their "youth" (still old, to kids), when they all first meet eachother 💕
... they might be a little disappointed by Chakotay though 😅 They made him so good here, as a character and as a presence (he's so lean and rugged!), they won't know what to think! Please come back and share their reaction!
Finished season two tonight. Immensely satisfying. Was not expecting that final reveal, and yet I felt it was perfect - because it was earned. I thought "Oh, of course. Yes. That's just as it should be."
Really hope they get a third season. Even if not, these two seasons will stand among the best that Star Trek has to offer. Even the inspirational speeches were great.
This is the show I was most skeptical about when I first learned of it. Now it's among my favourites.
Cried during last episode of Season 2. This show has to go on. Thank you Hagemans!!
You still have my full respect (and terror) for binging it ALL in a day, Cap'n Steve.
I really have to wonder how many great stories get lost from live action because of the technical aspects? One of the liberating things about animation is that they can accommodate such things which I think makes it easier for the creative teams to let loose and take risks across the board.
On your reccommendation, I watched Prodigy; just finished Season 1. OMG I love it! It IS good! Great, complex characters, interesting, complicated story - but not too complicated - totally entertaining. Everything you said. Looking forward to S2, thanks!
Understanding and respecting the universe while creating new interesting and unique characters.
Prodigy is so clever in so many ways. No one has noticed the way it deals with typical Star Trek violence so it's suitable for children. Having Murf be the security officer means the violence is actually very comical and unrealistic - much like Looney tunes and Road Runner. He's very bendy and stretchy and nimble and so the violence is not intimidating or frightening. Very skillful handling of something which could have caused issues with parents
The story-telling was just better, especially when you consider Prodigy is under the constraints of where they are in the timeline and managed to be leaps and bounds above the live action offerings. Pacing was pretty good and did not feel like there was much "filler" like NuTrek suffers from. Great job from the Prodigy Team!
Episodic storytelling is your friend when you have to fill an episode count. The problem with modern streaming is episode orders are all about keeping subs locked in for a certain number of months not to tell the story in as long as it takes (like early in house Netflix where most of what they made was at least quality). So they threw away the one advantage of streaming and went right back to old network methods….but threw away how creatives navigated that with interchangeable self contained episodes and so they stretch a thin movie plot into 6-10 hours of visual media. How much better could Disco and Picard had been if we had a random stuck in the Holodeck episode or stranded on a planet episode that only involved 1-2 characters so we could get invested and have them get a “win” without referencing some meta plot where everyone has to periodically get dumb so the story doesn’t just end right now. Ie all we get fed now are losses by our protagonists and antagonists not compelling wins and so the narratives always fall flat.
If Prodigy became the home for broken toys, I would not be disappointed.
Idk. I’d rather it became it’s own thing and not just a back-door fix it for everything that’s not DS9.
I never felt like Lower Decks was "jingling their keys" with familiar characters. They've had quite a lot, but unlike either Prodigy *or* Picard, it's a very episodic show (most episodes are a fully self-contained story), and in each episode that features characters from past series' it seems to me like they usually play an important role in that episode's story. It also tends to feel like the perfect show if you *do* want to just cram in as many character cameos as you can, considering it's a parody that's subverts Trek "tropes" which inevitably include the ones associated with particular characters (like Q showing up at the end of an episode to bother the main characters only to be met with "get out of here Q, no, we are done with random stuff today, we're not dealing with any of your Q bullsh*t" and "go find Picard" which I thought was pretty funny). Kind of the whole point of the show is the self-aware humor and I imagine it'd be a lot harder to pull off without all the cameos.
Steve dislikes lower decks and it shows every time he mentions it. (Like it would if I were to talk about discovery)
@@keit99 Yeah, I've disliked Discovery and Picard, but I think Lower Decks is a lot more respectful toward the rest of the franchise than either of them. Even the third season of Picard that a lot of Trek fans seemed to like felt too pandering to me, even if it did have some good nostalgic moments.
I do wonder if LD simply feels more Trek to me than the rest of these shows just because it *is* episodic. When I put on a classic Trek episode, from ToS to Enterprise, I expect to see a full story, and very rarely does it fail to deliver. And only extremely rarely do I have to watch more than a second episode.
I think the difference is Wesley was a cameo in Picard, which even felt like it was filmed last second, while his role in Prodigy was built specifically around that character. I figure his Picard cameo was created just because Korre's actress didn't want to be in season 3.
I largely agree with your examination-except Lower Decks, I love Lower Decks.
Lower Decks wears what it is very clearly on its sleeve. The show is basically more about fandom than it is about Trek itself. So I don't mind all the things Steve hates about it - they make sense in that show. 1,000% agree that Picard is mostly embarrassingly bad, though.
Ditto that, it too often feels like Steve finds fault in Lower Decks simply for being exactly what it set out to be: a goofy, shameless, self-parodying *comedy* show, made by and *for* the ultra-hardcore Trek geeks. If the show's style simply isn't his cup of tea, which he's said before, then that's perfectly fair, but that doesn't mean the show is actually doing anything wrong.
Even then, when Lower Decks uses obscure nostalgic references, they're usually just for inconsequential background gags or quick one-liners and stuff like that, scattered amongst a sea of original, non-referential jokes to boot. When legacy content *does* get more focus, more often than not it's used to tell genuinely good, episodic stories, rather than trying to use nostalgia as a *substitute* for a story the way Picard S3 did.
The way S4 brought back Nick Locarno and turned him into a villain, for example, felt like a funny yet believable endgame for the character which I thought was very cleverly done. Likewise for somewhat smaller cameos like Sonya Gomez or Sulu in their brief, story-contributing roles. Yes it's still fanservice, but as far as I see it, it's fanservice *done right.*
Need I also mention that Lower Decks is the only one of the modern shows where the main characters are all original to that show, without a single "legacy" character in the bunch?
Granted there's also stuff like the Mugato episode, but realistically they can't all be winners...
I agree wholeheartedly @@KaboomKrusader
Same and other replies have explained my reasons for me. Lower Decks knows it's just a celebration of everything Star Trek that came before it and doesn't hide it and actually plays into it very well. It's also really grounded by its original character cast all of whom have great core traits and fantastic development.
In Episode 9 around 15:20, Wesley mentions about the Temporal Wars. I wonder if he was involved with Enterprise and the mystery time guy who spoke to the Suliban. Episode 4 02:15 if you look into Murph's eyes, you'll see a dark outline of someone who represents something similiar to the mystery time guy who spoke to the Suliban in Enterprise.
Treating the audience like adults rather than children. Perfect.
At 26:13 Steve says that Prodigy is the first Star Trek series aimed at kids. I would argue that Star Trek the animated series from the 1970s was also aimed at kids originally shown on Saturday mornings with all the other cartoons. Their target audience was definitely children.
I would call Prodigy a "family" cartoon rather than a "children's" cartoon. I know that sounds like semantics but children's cartoons are the ones targeted solely at children (think Dora the Explorer) while family cartoons are designed to be appreciated by both children and their parents. I think most of my favorite media is actually "family"-targeted, and Prodigy one great example of why: it can't try to hide bad writing with tawdry sex and violence because that's not appropriate for children, it can't hide bad writing with memberberries because the kids aren't old enough to remember what is being called back to, and yet it still needs to be able to entertain children, teenagers, and adults, so you're forced to actually write solid stories or fail. Star Trek Prodigy, My Adventures with Superman, The Owl House, Infinity Train, Avatar the Last Airbender (original version), Pixar films in their golden age, Animaniacs, Warner Brothers cartoons in their golden age, and more are all great examples of works where the writing is solid because you needed to make it work for audiences of all ages instead of treating you audiences like morons.
Alright, I'll try out Prodigy. Being kind of rough on Lower Decks though!
I would say the Doctor showing up makes sense. Of course the main person to treat the Doctor like "a real boy" would be the person who watched him grow as a person. Im not sure anyone else would treat the Doctor with such respect. So while he may not be needed to progress the story, I do believe it was a nice way to show Janeways character.
The first time I saw Prodigy mentioned, the "Nickelodeon" subtitle put me off, but I had to check it out since it's part of Trek. It didn't take me long to appreciate how well it was written and how compelling the stories were. I was glad to see season two finally released and am about three quarters of the way through it. Still impressed with the show and glad to see it on Netflix.
Keep up the good work!
Wesley's sweater in Prodigy is actually one of the sweaters he wears when he's 16 and on the Enterprise in TNG. That's why he seems so familiar! :)
I love Lower Decks, but it's a workplace comedy so I don't think it should be compared to the other shows too closely
Fun Fact: In German TV, the orininal Star Trek series was shown as a kids show. The synchronisation was a fair bit lighter and not as serious. And certain scenes were cut out. For me that was a good start into Star Trek.
When my nieces were very young, they wanted to watch Star Trek with me. Their mom okayed it as long as I chose a kid -friendly episode. The Way to Eden seemed like a harmless, goofy episode. When we got to the end with the pain and death, I thought, "Oh, fuck! I've traumatised them". I was about to go into comfort mode when a tiny voice piped up, "Oh, good, the annoying one died".
Kids are hardier than we sometimes think, is what I'm saying.
I had no idea! (I live in DE)
Star Trek was considered kid friendly here just without any of the facist censoring.
I liked th LD Locarno story; it worked for me because the bloody Voyager writers kept confusing the Paris and Locarno back stories and the LD storyline finally cleaned up the canon by clearly delineating between the two.
This show seems to make people feel the same way I do about Star Wars Rebels. By no means perfect, but overall a really thoughtful and emotionally mature take on the material that ended up far better plotting than nearly every live action series since.
As much as I absolutely LOVED the use of Wesley, he might as well have been played by David Tennant, because his character pretty much was The Doctor in demeanor, scripting, and costume.
I'm torn because yeaaaaah it was a lil too much like dr who but to be fair 1. kids show and 2, like steve said, a personality like that would most likely be the result of being time traveling who doesn't see reality the same way anymore
Wes is totally different now to the character we knew on TNG - he is basically a Time Lord at this point, in fact even more "powerful" since he has "powers" what with the whole thought thing and able to travel to every kind of dimension, timeline and universe apparently.
It's funny you say that because about a decade ago, Wil Wheaton said his personal headcanon for what happened to Wesley after _TNG_ is that he became a Timelord. Guess his dream came true!
You say that like it's a bad thing :)
I suppose it could be a bit disappointing to hardcore Wesley fans, if they couldn't recognise him as the same character
But it's not surprising that they went that way. A really large section of the fanbase loves Will Wheaton, but hated original-flavour Wesley. This performance felt like an exaggerated version of Will Wheaton's own public persona, the one that's gotten him so much love in the past few decades. And personally I think I had more fun watching that than I would have had watching something that was truer to early-Wes
One thing that excites me about a potential season 3 is that having the Doctor around after the synth attack on Mars is going to give us a (good) look at what the experiences of a synthetic life form will be during this time in Federation history. It would almost certainly be better than the bad Mass Effect rip off that was Picard season 1.
Prodigy is the most Star Treky show I have seen in a while. I really enjoyed watching it and found it better than earlier Lower Decks seasons. More heartwarming. And like in Anime, it treats children like adults.
This got me thinking that 10 years from now there will be Star Trek fans for whom the Real Voyager is the Voyager-A
Something to consider is that Prodigy got to be the length of a pre-streaming Star Trek season. it had a lot more TIME to do stuff that modern trek isnt allowed because 'streaming shows must be short' or some such nonsense.
I looked that the scenes in these show and kept saying "wait?!?!? this is Y7??? for kids?" wow
I don't always agree with you (for example, I like Lower Decks, though the fan service can be a bit much), but you hit the nail on the head here. The producers think that they can use references to existing Trek to guarantee an audience, but at the same time that can limit your audience to people who get the references if you don't handle it correctly. As you've mentioned several times, I would love to see a Trek show do something entirely new. Maybe a mid-25th century show with all new characters.
I keep commenting as I get through the material.
Although the episodes are shorter, having 20 short episodes makes each episode that much better; So does a complete season drop all at once. I think it works better being able to catch all of the story in one or two settings as chapters.
Very good show!
Thanks Steve ❤
Season 2 blew me away.
Not only do I think it's one of the best seasons of Trek, I think it's one of the best TV shows I've ever seen (I'm about 40 and have watched a LOT of TV in my life, so a large basis of comparison).
I also can't believe how good it is.
I really hope enough people catch on so that we'll get more, AND so that the rest of modern Trek might get some ideas
Any Star Trek show that can skillfully bring back Ronny Cox as Edward Jellico is all right by me. They got it done...so to speak.
Just finished binge watching season 2. I immediately came here to hear what you had to say. Your review is spot on.
I managed, growing up, to watch/discover Star Trek in the right order, Voyage first, then TOS, TNG and then DS9. But this meant that going back to Voyager is disappointing as it wasn't as good as I remembered. Though I do have to say that Progidy has finally given me a Janeway and more importantly Chakotay that is how my teenage brain remembers them, and honours them as characters.
All the 'keys" used here as you say .. are shaken just enough to help open the door wider into this universe we have known and lived in for so many years ... we are happy to return to so many things that make sense with what we have expirienced as an audience over decades.
Steve, I'm older than you and watched season 1 when it came out. I'm looking forward to season 2. Agree with your points about treating the audience with respect. You should have also mentioned great opening theme in the show. So much better than in other Trek shows.
Between this and Lower Decks, Trekkies who like animation have been eaten so good lately.
Very spot on analysis, I especially love your point about treating a young audience like adults.
I will defend Lower Decks a bit b/c, while it is a fan service and easter egg heavy show, I usually think it's handled well. I like that it rewards long time fans who actually get the references, and the show balances it by presenting these elements in a new way or analyzing the Star Trek universe in a comedic way.
I also really like the characters and their storylines, plus the show is a lot of fun (unlike some modern Star Trek content).
There are definitely episodes where I recognize that I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much without the references, and I get that its style just isnt for everyone.