Chris and Kathleen are bloody heroes! Litigation is not for the faint-hearted at any time, but to pursue it for a higher cause for the sake of this and future generations, and not for personal gain, is highly commendable.
I live in the Netherlands. I remember when the barge fire happened. All the news outlets were saying no one knew the source of the fire because firefighters couldn't get anywhere near the boat because of the heat. But still EVERY news outlet then went on to rant about the dangers of electric cars. They admitted they didn't know the origin of the fire and they STILL blamed it on EVs! Of course NOT ONE printed a retraction or even wrote an update. I was furious. I unsubscribed from my favourite news source because of this stunning lack of journalism!
- lol,, and we may assume you furiously resubscribed as the smoking EVs were removed from the carrier... origin stories are unimportant when contribution factors are analysed... Fantastic opinion...
All the EV cars survived intact that boat fire, they were on the bottom 4 decks, and there was no fire there. They had smoke damage but not the cause - the media is full of shit as there is a massive oil misinformation campaign, and much of the media is owned by Murdoc.
Sounds like the recent Costa Devario fire last year. It was loading used cars and the fire got going the firemen couldn’t get near it to put it out. It burnt for days. Initially blamed EV but then found out no EV,s onboard. That sort of put a spanner in the works but no retraction by news service. Maybe Felicity Ace then, that was a biggie, the captain said it was started by an EV and widely reported as such. When footage of fire via security cameras and fire boats viewed noted two things. No EV,s on the deck the fire started and none on the deck that the fire could not be put out on. It seems that the main problem with the RORO ships is the decks are made as open as possible to pack as many cars in as possible and they are now using each deck as the main fire retention system coupled with Halon suppressors. Turns out once the cars ignite (Ice vehicles or otherwise) the system is inadequate and the fire spreads throughout the entire deck getting oxygen from the stairwells and open hatches. Turns out that ICE cars compacted that closely cannot be extinguished. Then we need to consider ICE cars are about 50 times more likely to catch fire than an EV,s and the 6 or so RORO fires in the last few years make sense. The ship builders, owners, registrars and insurance company’s don’t want to blame the ship designs so guess who is to blame? Further, each car on the ship contains enough fuel to drive it on, off and around the docks so a couple of litres of volatile fuel that is highly vaporised because of the heat of the boat. Then there is the various oils, engine oil, transmission, possibly diff oil and all the plastics are flammable. Unfortunately the fire investigation people are saying that the ignition was unlikely to be EV,s even on those ships who were carrying them due to where the fires started and on RORO ships it doesn’t matter that much what the cars drive trains are, once they start burning they cannot be extinguished. Different story on land, on road etc. but here an interesting stat. Of the 9 confirmed EV fires in Australia from our 150,000 size fleet, 3 were burnt because house caught fire in unrelated incident and set car alight, one crashed at 160k/h (Tesla and computer downloaded) one was home built EV, one was arson and the rest were generally accident damage. In that same time there have been literally hundreds of ICE vehicle fires. Australian stats list ICE vehicles at about 100 times more likely to catch alight than EV,s but those stats won’t mean much until the EV fleet is at least 10 years old. Overseas stats put it between 50 to 1 and 20 to 1 depending on the country. Later uptake countries like Australia seem to be getting safer EV,s but not much change with ICE vehicles in last 10 years.
I am a bit worried that the UK (and many others) is going to deal with this monumental change/ transition in the same messy, stupid, ridiculous and uninspired way it dealt with Brexit
Thanks Rob and the fully charged team, and congratulations to Chris and kathleen who have inspired everyone to stand up for what is right as these arguments play out in all countries.
These two are absolute legends. Their battle is an inspiration and I’m now committed to making my own difference in the electrification and renewable sectors. As a newspaper journalist I am now bored with reporting local news and want to have a bigger impact, shining a light on the benefits of EVs and solar and how we are being held ransom by our political leaders and robbed by corporations. See you at the Sydney show.
Good luck. I wonder if you will be able to get published? The media is often funded by fossil fuel car manufacturers. This seems to bias what gets published. I really hope you can make a positive contribution.
@@robertwhite3503 I hope so, they can only hold back the tide for so long. Worst case, I’ll just focus on my own RUclips channel, which is how Chris started.
If you want the real story look at the limitations of the grid. Australian GDP is $1.5 trillion. Gross Domestic Product. Australian national grid is 1million klm. Australian national grid costs 1million $/klm. = $1TRILLION. No fossil fueled future needs 5 TIMES more electricity. 5 TIMES bigger national electric grid. The existing national grid was built over 100years. So 5 TIMES bigger national grid is insanely uneconomic. Nuclear electricity is constrained by the national grid size and cost to expand. Distant renewables have the same grid constraint. Nuclear promoters say grid gosts make distant renewables uneconomic. Nuclear promoters say fossil fueled future's CO2 emissions must be replaced. Nuclear then ignores how constrained the existing national grid capacity is. Basically they want to fill the grid with their nuclear electricity, monopolise the only grid Australia has and only supply 20% of Australia's clean electricity. Government disaster insurance Government cashflow guarantees And still the world's CO2 emissions proliferating. Sky News, Murdoch press, is murderous in their criticism of any alternative. Murdoch Fox News has just paid $1billion settlement for saying the wrong thing. Are you looking for a story about the real elephant in the room ???
@@stephenbrickwood1602 all very interesting. I’d like to see more of a decentralised system with roof top solar feeding into neighbourhood or suburban batteries. And definitely not neighbourhood nuclear, or any nuclear for that matter. And yes, humanity is being poisoned by Murdoch.
@Stan-at-KangarooIslandTV You maybe interested. Numbers are important. The nuclear promoters tipped me off to how expensive the new bigger grid will cost. They are right about the total mass of money. The nuclear base their baby on No CO2 future. No fossil fueled future. Grids are extremely expensive to construct. Then, ignore THAT all centralised electricity generation needs a grid and a 5 times bigger grid for their dream of a clean no fossil fueled future. In Australia, 20 million buildings and, therefore, 20 million customers. And 20million rooftops, on buildings connected to the grid. And 20million vehicles most parked at buildings 23hrs every day. And an incredibly expensive grid that can be UNLOADED from buildings loads. 75%of grid demand is buildings. 20million × 6.6kw rooftop is 660Gwh daily. 20million × 100kwh EVs batteries is 2,000gWh, daily storage. Dispatchable. Avg daily drive is 7kwh. Fossil fueled Electricity generation 25gW × 24hrs is 600gWh maximum if you are lucky. 300gWh avg. Less than EVs + rooftops. Customers will abandon the grid and look for the no grid solution, basically offgrid in the city, Hahaha. The government would have to step in with legislation to stop the cash drain. Stop grid abandoning by customers. Australia has Snowy 2's exploding budget because of the new grid costs to make the mass of new electricity flow. My concern is that the government will step in early and make a nuclear start, and as the budget explodes, say we have invested too much to abandon it. I am reminded of the Australian submarines' french failure, which are now USA nuclear. Nuclear submarines are a good military decision. I am reminded of Snowy 2's budget failure, it maybe abandoned. Electric vehicles and rooftop PV and the existing grid are perfect. 1, The EV battery is free with the vehicle. 2, The existing grid exists. 3, The rooftops exist, no new construction or new grid construction. 4, Rooftop PV is cheaper installed than standard windows $/ m2. 5, 33m2 is only a small part of a roof. The world can copy Australia and stop CO2 emissions worldwide. NOBODY does the maths, and both sides have agendas, Just the existing grid is a $56 billion cash flow business and owners have reduced maintenance costs to aged generation plants to improve today's profits. Add the imported petroleum $ cash flows, and we have a massive fossil industry fighting to stay alive. Elon Musk knows that he is building an energy business, and other automotive manufacturers know this as well. I am just speaking up because I hate bs, and it is a political decision that needs to be based on facts. So far, the LNP in Australia has made 2 major economic mistakes. The Snowy and the French submarines. Now they are promoting nuclear electricity. You will care about the costs, and your family will care.
@@linmal2242 Chris knows. He took the tax to the High Court. He means that he hopes the unconstitutional State Tax isn't replaces by a similar constitutional Federal Tax.
Tax Pollution, not the Solution! Thanks to Chris and Kathleen for their amazing, selfless efforts. Yes, we are the lucky country, not the clever country. I'll use that Kathleen.
Your enthusiasm for EVs is fantastic, I'm so happy for you. I will never be able to afford an EV myself, but I don't envy those who can, my daily is a 50cc scooter which gets around 100mpg. Thank you.
Iceland just speedily enacted a law that does exactly this at the end of last year. We now have to report the mileage status of the car every 30 days, and pay around 3 uk pence pr km for EVs and around 1 or 2 pence for Plug-In Hybrids. Same exact logic was applied "gas tax is paying for the roads, now you have to pay your fair share!". Never mind that we just approached 50% of newly registered cars being EVs, but in total we are somewhere between 6-8% of the total fleet. And never mind the societal benefit from not polluting our cities, not importing gas from dubious countries, etc etc. Also, just as we are moving away from EV buyers being the nerdy "enthusiasts" among us, to your every-man skeptic, who still needs some convincing, and a healthy incentive. Now the benefits are far from as clear cut. This also affects the rural EV owners much worse, since their average km pr month are so much higher. Charger infrastructure is bad in rural Iceland to begin with, and now there is little to no chance that anyone but the most evangelic EV enthusiasts there will go electric. Very very sad.
We just paid $400 in EV tax here in Texas for our new 2023 Bolt EUV. When you buy a new car here it comes with a 2 year registration, so the fee is $200 per year and the $400 covers the two years granted. This is purely a punishment tax on EVs, because it's Texas and the oil and gas industry owns the legislature and entire government. I accept that much of the state coffers are filled will gasoline tax paid at the pump and since our EV doesn't use gas, we need to pay our fair share. $200 a year is arbitrary and clearly not fair. The car is my wife's commuter car and her daily trip is only 28 miles. This does not add up to much annual mileage. The gasoline tax at the pump is $0.20 cents per gallon and the 2010 Prius we are retiring only used about 200 gallons a year so over it's life, so $40 in gas tax. We already have to get pollution and safety inspections annually in the Texas, so why not require a mileage read each year for EVs to assess a fair amount of tax? Oh right, the assholes who run our state hate EVs. Duh.
We do a yearly MOT for safety in the UK, which is obviously right and proper since not everyone changes out bald tyres or failed brakes without that. But our 'road tax' (Vehicle Excise Duty) is based on how much pollution you emit - it gets very high for terrible vehicles and EVs are free. And our government are pro-fossil fuels by many standards. A mileage read is silly tbh because it implies that only YOUR driving matters. Really, it's the driving other people do for you that matters. The police drive more than you do, delivery drivers do, massive juggernauts and the armed forces all drive more and weigh more than your family car. But it's easier to charge people at the pump, or just use income tax. Job done. There should never be another tax, if a human needs to administrate it when we could achieve the same thing with a computer.
@@jonevansauthor I misstated the use of the gas tax. It is supposed to be for road maintenance/construction not just to provide general funds to the state. I don't know that they keep the funds exclusively focused on roads even though that is the mandate. Taxing pollution is the most correct way to assess vehicle taxes I agree, but that won't happen in Texas any time soon. This state is the highest overall emitter of CO2 in the US and perversely, the people in charge are kinda proud of that I think. The way I see it, somebody has to be the "first ones up against the wall when the revolution comes" and it might as well be the Republicans running Texas.
Do you have vehicle-to-grid for your home? Then when the inevitable Texas winter power cuts happen you can be the one smug guy in your street that still has lights on.
Thank you for bringing this up. As an EV owner in Virginia we pay a yearly road tax as well. It's about the same amount. Like you, we are definitely paying more than what you're paying before with our old ICE car. How we fix this I'm not sure but I can imagine this will be a political issue in the future when more and more people are driving EVs and they're noticing their paying more in taxes than they were before (though some might be paying less if they're heavy drivers). Just with the increase in efficiency of ICE cars, especially hybrids, there's been a decrease in transit revenue so this is an issue the impacts everybody.
Here in New Zealand our slightly right leaning National government scrapped the EV subsidy at the end of last year and is introducing road user charge for EVs and PHEVs from April 1st. I think our RUC goes to the land transport fund, so I think it's fair that EVs pay their share.EVs will pay the same as diesel vehicles including UTEs $76/1000km, and PHEVs pay a slightly reduced cost of $58/1000km plus an admin fee of $12.88. RUC does impact PHEVs more because depending on how much they are driving around on electric, they could end up paying twice, once through RUC and again through duty at the pump. What is worse, is that all cars will eventually be moved to RUC which means that cleaner more efficient petrol cars and hybrids will see their fuel costs go up, and people with dirty, poorly serviced and less efficient vehicles will see their fuel costs go down.
There is a RUclips channel where “Geoff Buys Cars” is not yet a convert to EVs, a mild understatement. Geoff is quite entertaining and some of what he says does make sense as long as he is not on the topic of EVs. On the RUclips channel "Now You Know" they chop up their content in to bit sized clips, so you can share a clip without sharing the whole programme. It would be good if you did that for key statements. Like the "Luton fire was caused by a Diesel Range Rover". That the electric cars on the cart transporter ship, Fremantle Highway, were driven off whilst the ICE vehicles were dragged off due to all being incinerated. I would love to send Geoff that clip. Chances are he would explode in a fireball. Indeed whilst checking the name of the ship most content still says it was an EV which caught fire and started all the damage.
Thank you Fully Charged Show and particularly Kathleen Davies for sharing the very practical and focussed list of tools for activism: 1 use your voice, 2 use your vote, 3 use your dollars, 4 use your time.
Really enjoyed that one guys. I helped support Chris & Kathleen as much as I could by chipping into the fighting fund. The law firm were great in keeping us updated with the latest. I really think the important take away points that need to be remembered from all this: - this was exactly how NOT to implement an EV tax. It was so rushed and flawed at every point - there persists (perpetuated by those in power) the lie that EVs don't "pay their fair share". The vast majority of roads I drive on are local, and I pay directly for them, like everyone else via council rates. - if governments are looking to plug the revenue hole caused by less oil purchased... punch UP first. Look at all the companies that have paid ZERO tax for decades, take our money and send it OS for internal profit and THEN demand subsidies from us... fill the hole by correcting all that first. - there will be some much saving simply in the fact we'll have better health outcomes and less strain on the public purse for national health care - if a new way is required to extract funds from road users, apply it equally to ALL road users. Dare I say, drop the fuel excise, but add a cost based on emissions. This will incentives the move to EVs even with cheaper fuel. Oh, and Robert, you missed a question from Kathleen that I was interested in. What portion of the fuel tax in the UK actually goes to roads? As you heard, here in Australia 100% of our fuel excise goes to general coffers. You could just as easily say that the cigarette tax here goes to fund our national roads.
Road "fund" licence/Vehicle Excise Duty & Fuel duty etc are all general funds like VAT. They are not hypothecated (saved seperately) in the same way national insurance is not saved for your pension. It is in fact a genuine Ponzi scheme.
% of cars catching fire, ice vs electric, is overwhelming to the advantage of electric. However, to put off a fire in a a battery is difficult for conventional fire fighters. With the oxides therein, we need to build those capabilities with them.
If governments ultimately remove the tax from fuel then charging a rate per km (or mile) to all types of car user seems reasonable to me. However, during the period of transition away from fossil fuel there is good reason to provide an incentive for people to make a change to EV by keeping their costs down (especially as initial vehicle purchase costs remain higher).
Yep a mileage tax needs to be introduced sooner tbh, it's no longer a question of if EV will replace ICE vehicles as most manufacturers will have stopped producing internal combustion vehicles by 2030. I'm seeing lots of EV's on the road now so they need to start paying their fair share, plus the majority of EV drivers can afford it tbh as they sit in the higher income bracket, it's the less well off driving ICE vehicles who are now subsidising them..
UK govt wanted road pricing AND fuel duty. As you say fuel duty makes less and less sense these days. Road pricing with some linkage to vehicle weight (remember all those "heavy EVs are destroying our roads" scare stories) sounds good to me, (as a driver of a small diesel SUV).
The best thing about the 2.5 cents per kilometre tax is how administratively inconvenient it was. Instead of say averaging it out by just adding an offensive extra $500 to the yearly rego fee, which would have been bad enough, some halfwit decided to create extra paperwork for the poor bloody public to deal with as well. The thing that really really cheeses me off is having to fill out time wasting, ambiguous gobbledegook government forms.
@@AnonYmous-rw6un NO IT WOULDN"T. Every driver in the country would be filling their declaration every year and the tax office would be receiving, in the case of the whole of Australia about 10 million different declarations every year.Then there would be the enforcement of the rules. It would not only be inconvenient to the public but create yet another quagmire of civil servants.
Here in the UK it would be very straightforward because the odometer reading is taken at every annual MOT test. The MOT details are automatically sent to a government database. Granted the MOT only starts when the car is 3 years old but the infrastructure is in place. At the moment all car owners must make an online annual payment which depends on the size and pollution potential of the car. At the moment the payment for EVs is zero but that is about to change. It would be very straightforward to implement payment per mile using this method and eventually, when the great majority of cars are EVs it would be the fairest method.@@markumbers5362
5 years ago when i bought my leaf here in Queensland, people a work came out with all the comments "tree hugger", "Coal powered is worse", "lettuce car", "tyre dust" , "fire hazard". It got keyed aswell.
I am a tree hugger in Oakland California. I own a Leaf. There are many EVs here. The push back is about trying to get gas appliances out of our homes. Some people hate change some love it. Our local utility had a $4k rebate on used EVs, that makes older Leafs free or close to it.
In the debate about avoiding politification of these subjects, especially going after the billions handed out to the oil industry, I fear it will be a long time before we see any real change. Our politicians are deep in the pockets of the oil giants.
Interestingly the SA government (as was at least one other) was also looking at implementing the same law however they saw that an appeal was being made to high court so they waited for the outcome. I can imagine that if the appeal had been lost then a few states would have given the EV tax a shot. (no, it’s a Levy, states cannot tax😉)
I have been fighting the Victorian government regarding the building of a Water treatment plant next door to my property . I have been a labor voter most of my life . The politicians treated me exactly the same way as you were. I very much appreciate what you have achieved. I have owned an electric car for 2 years I hope this labor government learns from this as well as all the other State governments that were waiting in the wings to introduce this tax.
In Australia, fuel excise is not hypothecated to road funding. That is, the funding for roads is not reduced if fuel excise drops, and if fuel excise increases, this does not mean that more roads can be built. Roads are paid for from general revenue. Fuel excise is just a tax. When I bought my EV, it cost about $20000 more than the equivalent combustion vehicle from the same manufacturer. The tax on that $20000, and the tax on the electricity which powers the car, exceed the fuel excise which I would have paid if I had bought the ICE vehicle. That EV users don’t pay for roads is a myth - tax pays for roads - we pay tax - lots of it.
In the UK no taxes are hypothecated. Dennis Healey was Chancellor Of The Exchequer and said something like, "Taxes are like plucking a goose. You take a feather here and a feather there, in the hopes that the goose won't notice." Hence income tax, VAT (sales tax), National Insurance, fuel tax, alcohol tax, Capital Gains, Corporation, stamp tax (on houses), Vehicle Excise, Council tax, and driving penalties!
In NZ EVs will pay the same road user charges diesels do for 1 April this year. As an EV owner it’s a good thing to stop the jealously that’s happening in NZ. Although the health and ‘avoiding pollution tax’ argument was very good. It’s 7c per km and will be 80% of our costs!
Well, ICE owners should pay the true cost of their environmental destruction. Unfortunately I understand that NZ has just voted in a very reactionary government.
I met our local member of Parliament, the Australian Attourney General, Mark Dreyfuss, also a member of the Australian Labor Party, and I told him directly I had voted Labor all of my life, but as a result of this embarrasingly horrible tax, I will NEVER vote for them again. He tried to excuse himself by telling me it was not the Australian federal Labor govt but just a Victorian State tax. The BASTARD. How dare he deny the fact that it is the FEDERAL Australian Government who sets and controls road taxes. They have lost me. FOR EVER.
At this point in time, it's probably unlikely any further VAT might be added to petrol prices, given that Road Tolls are literally around the corner, with taxation moving from petrol and diesel to actual road *usage* Shell (in the UK at least) have already outlined their intention to cut the production of petrol and diesel by up to 40% on the lead up to 2030. This appears to tie in with the now current UK legislation, requiring 22% of *all* new cars and vans sold, to be emissions free. This of course means that 22% of all new cars and vans sold from now, will not longer require petrol or diesel. There are also now fines of £15'000 *per vehicle* sold outside this legislation.....
I'm voting with my dollars. Buying an ev with V2L and, rewiring home with solar, small battery and AC generator port. Heat hot water and during the day. Run fridge, tv, lights and, one small air con at night. Regional South Oz - just got to convice solar installer to do it. Then I'll be able to do 400k round trips every other day (maybe once week if partner doesn't join me). So excise would have affected this ability - so thankful 4 people could change this. Hope for 5 on the next one.
A FANTASTIC EPISODE. I was a resident of Victoria with an EV during these times and remember it well. A big thank-you to Chris Vanderstock & Kathleen Davies on fantastic efforts and of course to Fully Charged for continuing to bring these stories to light. 👍👍👍👍👍
Robert, love the podcasts. I live in Texas and drive a Rivian, and in 2024 we have a new yearly registration tax for EVs of $200. I don't know if the fee will actually go towards a road budget, although that is the reasoning. Texas fuel is taxed at $0.394 per gallon which an EV would never pay. I didn't feel that amount was too much, but I understand that if the fees are not going to road repair, then the whole premise for the tax is just a lie.
It seems that Texas is going to screw you. $0.394 per gallon is going to be around $130 assuming 10,000 miles driven at 30 miles per US gallon so ICEs will pay less. Deplorable.
Looking at electrical supply today. On cold winters day. The UK is exporting to Europe. The demand is being met by 45% renewables. If it was not for the renewables. The fossil fuel would struggle to meet demand..
Many people in Australia is not taking electrifying seriously, I even had the guys who installed solar panels for me, asked me that "do you believe EV actually save the environment" while he drives a diesel Ford Ranger.
@@samchen0079 that’s not a guarantee. It really depends on a lot of things. I’ve done the math on our own situation and electric would cost me more at this stage, unless I’m willing to downsize the car (not practical) or buy a different brand than I would ordinarily (not interested in a new unknown brand). I’m reluctant to buy a new petrol car but at the same time the out lay for a similar sized (large SUV) electric car is basically double. I think we’ll hang on to our petrol car until either it dies or the cost for an equivalent electric car starts to make sense.
Brilliant podcast as always from this channel. The way I see it is that it took several human lifetimes to build an industrial society based on fossil fuels..As Kathleen says they have lifted us out of poverty, kept us warm and given us transportation and electricity. Is it so unreasonable to suppose it will take one human lifetime, say 70 to 80 years to rebuild our society based on clean energy and battery storage?
It is not unreasonable to expect the transition to be 😮slow, but we have known of the need for fifty years already. It has become urgent for the last twenty years and now the cost of failure is measured in lives and property damage worldwide.
So in USA subsidies in various forms amount to $20 billion a year. Paid by taxpayers via taxes, then on top of that we get a fuel tax to pay for roads upkeep, which is routinely plundered for other "more needy" policies. So we taxed at both ends. Wonderful
If EVs are paying the registration amount, then they are paying for their use of the roads. The problem is that they are not paying the extortionate petrol tax, and the government are losing their extortion / protection money.
I live in the U.S. state of Virginia, whose governor is a conservative. Approximately two years ago, a HUF tax (Highway Use Fuel Tax) was applied to both fuel efficient cars as well as all electric vehicles. The thing that jumps at me about this tax is how the tax goes up the more efficient your vehicle is! And if your vehicle gets less than 25 mpg, you don’t pay this tax! Therefore, the result of taxing people who are trying to do the right thing for the good of everyone and ‘rewarding’ those who aren’t or can’t try to positively impact our future. That isn’t the path forward.
That was super interesting, thanks! I didn't realise that the 'unconstitutional' grounds wasn't for the type of tax itself, just that the state government isn't allowed to do it. If this had come from the federal level, it would have been totally fine with this ruling.
The next question a fellow Victorian voter wants to know is, who gave our politians/senior public servants the idea in the first place? I suggested a lobbyist from an organisatio'n who helped fund the government's re-election got in their ear. My vote will win ultimately
Those lobbyists are waiting to ambush every politician in every state. They are loaded with money and lies. I have seen the extraordinary influence they have over both major parties to the detriment of the country.😊
I think just say stop burning stuff is a very simple to say on a very complex issue. If the UK disappeared in to the sea the different to global Co2 output would be less then 1%.
Shhhhh, don't give Rishi any idea's - bad enough EV's here in the UK gonna have to pay VED from April next year without them also taxing per mile!. They looking for more ways to make up the tax shortfall as we (slowly) transition to EV's....seems they doing everything they can to slow that down here, all gov incentives removed, no grants for anything and now VED tax.
These policies don't come out of the blue. They are coordinated by a network of "think tanks" that operates worldwide. Outfits like the IEA and CATO and Heritage etc all coordinate the push for the same policies everywhere. The main coordinating body is called the Atlas Network. So Sunak and Co will already have heard these ideas years ago.
This is nonsensical, fossil cars already pay VED plus per mile (effectively via fuel duty) both still cause wear & tear and should be recouped in some way - all the more as fossil cars become fewer & fewer.
@@simonspeechley2859 weren't you listening? The fuel taxes don't go to maintaining roads. They just go into general taxation. And all the revenue from those taxes goes to pay for rebates and tax credits for the polluting industries anyway.
@@simonspeechley2859 VED is supposed to be for emissions - after all its based on CO2 emission bands but now suddenly a zero emitting vehicle will have to start paying. Although as pointed out above the whole system is nonsense as none of the tax from VED or fuel duty is ring fenced and is actually used to tackle pollution or even go into maintaining the roads.
In New Zealand, it has just been announced that electric vehicles will be charged, starting in April, a road charge of $76 per 1000km of driving. At present my leaf costs me about 5c per km. This will add a further 7.6c per km bringing it up to 12.6c per km. Petrol in New Zealand is about $2.40 per Liter and if you assume an ice car gets, say, 12km per Liter, then the fuel to travel one km costs about 20c. We are still ahead with an electric car but for how long before the petrol lobby finds some additional way to shaft the EV driver.
This new tax has been proposed here in Pennsylvania, U.S. Huge registration fee proposed by our Republican state reps. Irony… we already pay sales tax when we buy power on the road! Some points made here jibe perfectly with the letter we’ve written to our reps.
The problem here isn't the per mile fee, it's that the fuel tax isn't directly paying for roads. If it were more like the USA where at least Federal fuel taxes are directly going to the highway fund, you can justify substitution. Sadly in the USA states have introduced lazy fixed fees rather than using per mile fees, so there are now two payment systems that work differently.
Excellent. In a similar vein, perhaps Fully Charged could run an episode on ULEZ here in the U.K. and shame those councils who are obstructing them. And if #Stopburningstuff is now Fully Charged’s raisin d’etre, I think an episode in support of Just Stop Oil must be a priority. If national treasures like Chris Packham can put their reputations on the line, so can Fully Charged.
ULEZ is enormously expensive to set-up, London has spent at least £500 million to date on the camera systems alone, never mind the compensation scheme for ICE cars, most local authorities simply can't afford to introduce them.
I'd have a lot more respect for just stop oil if they just stopped wearing oil based products , vandalising things with oil based products, waving oil based banners , holding up traffic ultimately causing more pollution and most important stop causing deaths by stopping ambulances!!! If they JUST STOP BEING HYPOCRITICAL maybe more will listen to them. Bit of a rant apologies for the punctuation 😂
Great discussion, those 2 are legends, took on the Govt with a really thought out strategy. What was the govt thinking?? Really short sighted money grab, very disappointing from a progressive govt. great podcast , let’s keep decarbonising…
The only problem with the tax in Victoria was that it put in place by a state not federal government so you can expect one to come back at sometime in the future. The excise tax is charged to pay for the road system so all vehicle owners should contribute to the system above the GST charge.
But the trucks have never been asked to pay their fair share because that would be inflationary. That’s despite them doing most of the damage to roads and being the biggest polluters.😮
I’m shocked. Mostly at the apparent surprise that a left leaning (and therefore historically a higher taxation leaning) party would be trying to g to introduce an extra tax. I’d be much more surprised if it were a right leaning government trying to introduce such a tax. To be fair, there are some other shocking views expressed in this video. But who has time to pick up on every point.
A per mile tax nationwide for every type of vehicle is fair. Buying fuel would be cheaper without a fuel tax. Unfortunately low MPG cars would not be disincentivised and additional paperwork would be necessary. But truck drivers in the US have had to deal with a simular tax since 1986. It's called the IFTA tax.
Actually a very valuable discussion, and I'm in full agreement with what was said, but I felt a bit frustrated that input from Chris seemed to be somewhat limited by what was clearly intense participation of the 'other two speakers'. (However, I've still given you all a 'LIKE' CLICK!
Great chat to two fascinating people, shame that several times you were all talking over one another and it got difficult for those of us of a certain age that are struggling with hearing issues
I remember ages ago, some guys in the UK were running their cars on used fish and chip shop oil, and they were done for tax evasion. Did they appeal / get this crazy ruling overturned ?
Having subsidies and taxes at the same time makes no sense. It just adds complexity. Better off to just end the subsidies AND the taxes at the same time.
Can you guys sometime afdress the issue surrounding Hertz selling their Teslas, insurance costs being higher for EVs, and apparently this in part being due to the repair costs of EVs. Its certainly got me worried about the step to replacing my hybrid with a full EV.
it only a repair cost issue, the running costs were not a problem, and a lot lower as they stated. but being an in demand car, means parts will be harder to get. so repair costs go up. also, a lot of those cars that the hire companies bought, were purchased in 2022. its now been 2 years which is the usual time hire car companies start to turn over their fleets. There are also many other options in EVs besides Tesla, BYD are proving very popular and capable. as well as the harder to get Kia and Hyundai Evs.
@@SydneyEV I heard others tell a very different story. Some are saying that it is purely depreciation of the cars that motivated Hertz. There is certainly evidence that insurers are charging EV owners more (at least in the UK and in the Netherlands). Now spare parts shortages could drive up insurance costs but that does not help those of us who find that on top of higher initial purchase prices, we are also expected to cough up more for insurance. I agree running costs are lower, my hybrid has served me really well but I was just thinking 2024 might be the year to switch over when this broke. I'll certainly be asking the dealers some questions about warranty on the battery and if they cover damage to the underside of the car.
@@NickAskewI lt might also be because people hire the teslas and take them for joyrides and crash or they don’t know how to use electric cars and crash and also the depreciation of the cars because Tesla keeps lowering the prices of their cars.
Most warranties are 8 years or so, my oldest EV is 15 yrs old this August, the warranty was only 5 yrs, a recent condition test showed its lost 29% capacity since new, after nearly 15 years. it had 110Km range new, it still gets 80Km range, more than enough for the 10km it does on average every day. As for road damage hat would be an insurance issue, as its not a manufacturing defect. Similar things can happen to any car, a small rock through the sump of a new Skoda Superb and wrote off my friends car. that sort of even can happen, but considering there are now about 20 Million Evs on the road worldwide now, its not appearing to be a known issue. If considering going full EV, keep a diary of each days driving distance and where to, and after a month get a good idea of your actual use case. then make a decision based on your particular situation. if say driving just 30Km a day, that will take about 6Kwh each night to recharge. Where do you regularly drive away from home, and see if there is any fast charging options near there, or if you will even need them. My father did this before buying, and decided a shorter range cheaper Nissan LEAF was a perfect fit. @@NickAskew
The most alarming thing that came out of the video for me was that the court's decision was so close. Perhaps the 'Swiss way' would have been a better test- put it to a (internet-based) referendum.
Looking forward to seeing the show down under. I am interested to hear how others are dealing insurance premiums for EV’s in Australia. I was recently quoted almost $3800 more than my current old gas guzzler. Is this happening anywhere else in the world?
Tax them according to electric consumption, just as you would an HVAC system. Road taxes, and I have no idea how you tax for road maintenance, but it should should also be assessed.
With the money we pay for rego and excise we should be driving on perfectly levelled gold plated roads. But, with a few exceptions, our highways are a disgrace. This causes even more costs due to higher fuel consumption, tyre and suspension wear and smashed wind screens. I drivecan EV for 5 years by now andvthe charging net2ork outside the Tesla bubble is a dogs breakfast with mostly single 50kW chargers which are highly unreliable. Why the hell on earth should we pay any money for poor roads and infrastructure? Chris and Kathleen are true heroes......we should be taxed on the true overall cost for the community including health and environment. Would be an eye opener for many.
Tax free electric vehicle transport sounds like a good idea. The expensive cost of transport (also energy) in the UK holds everybody back from achieving their goals , whether they use an electric bicycle, car, van, bus, or train.
It's crazy with the idea of an ev tax. Electricity is mainly a ton of taxes and fees, but as evs are so efficient, the authorities feel they are losing out
It depends. If some of your petrol tax is diverted to road upkeep and road expenses, then I think it fair that BEV drivers pay their fair share for road upkeep. That's sort of the case here in NZ.This money is reserved for "roading" as they say here (but only state highway roads) . Petrol users pay this "road user charge" in the duty on petrol , plus GST and around 18c/l carbon charge. Diesel users don't pay this charge in the price of diesel, which is why it is significantly cheaper. That's because if you use diesel on your farm or business or heating, you shouldn't have to pay it. Instead diesel vehicles pay a road user charge of around $75 / 1,000 kms, or 7.5c/km. It's a large amount of money. (In the UK you separate the diesel into red and some other colour) . BEV owners now will start paying RUC at this same rate. So in Victoria you are paying just one third of what we'll be paying in NZand here no one makes any fuss whatsoever, and the AA and motoring lobbies are strongly supportive of this RUC on BEVs. NZ has 25 million real sheep and 5 million human sheep. Plug in hybrids will pay a lower rate. The other thing is that as in Australia, local councils pay for all the rural roads through the rates. The government intends to even things up even further by requiring all drivers, including petrol, to pay RUC. You have to report your mileage and pay in advance or given a month or two grace. NOW, actually I don't object to this as a point of principle, but what I do object to is that ICEV drivers not paying for the damage their pollution causes, whether to the climate, or to the public's health or the noise or fumes etc. Nor does it recognise the huge state / tax subsidies oil and other CO2 producing industries companies get in so many ways. (eg billions of dollars in free carbon credits) A carbon charge of 18c/litre or about 2 c/km is nowhere near enough, and needs to be at least three times this amount or much much more.- it is nowhere near high enough to change drivers' buying habits. Such a charge would bring in a couple of billion dollars annually to invest in renewable energy, energy efficiency, energy conversion etc. At the moment the 18c carbon charge just goes into the consolidated account. The cost to NZ of buying overseas "credits" to make up for our continued emissions will be billions of dollars, which the tax payer will be paying but not ICEV drivers. It is incredibly frustrating how scientifically ignorant, cynical and devious our politicians are. (In addition BEV purchase rebates are now cancelled) To be paying nearly $1,000 pa for the privilege of driving NZ's roads on an average annual mileage will make a lot of people think twice before going electric.
The new NZ government have also introduced this, and they are removing the Ute tax which was to reduce diesel purchases. But I expected this, as this national government also has in its policies, to allow new oil explorations. I feel they need a science advisor explaining the real world.
In Ohio, USA, I pay 250.00 in reg. tax every year when I get renewal sticker . Really I understand it for road repair that gas tax is [SUPPOSED] to pay for.
Possibly...but as they said: subsidies for fossil fuel industries more than outweigh the lost revenue...so it's not so much there's less money, it's just whose pocket is it in?
Fossil fuel imports contribute to a lot of UK revenue leaving the country. The money EV drivers save if spent in the UK benefit society economically and environmentally.
In some places, ev taxes are 10 times higher than petrol to compensate for the loss of petrol taxes. Every country need taxes so it is the right thing to do, govt should calculate the petrol tax losses vs the bhp and tax accordingly
I was in London the other at the BBC earth experience which was an amazing event. When we left there walking along we saw notices on the lamp posts warning people to not let their engine idle or will get a hefty fine, which I thought was a great idea. But how let down was I when I turned the corner to see a new double decker bus in bus stand front door open with the engine idling and the driver talking to another bus driver in front of him.. The bus looked new albeit it had the round rear end of the old routemaster bus so I assume it was a hybrid. Why penalise motorists with ULEZ zones etc. when the greener option is just as bad.
Chris and Kathleen are awesome. I contributed to their legal fight. However I do wonder where and how the government will tax ev drivers for road use going forward.
Interesting video about how the Electric Vehicle Tax was squashed. I did laugh when Robert made his comment saying “ it’s as easy as Poo” which isn’t always that easy for everyone.. 😂💩
not that I don't agree with the sentiment that the oil industry try to get as much money as they can for their product as possible which does keep people poorer, however I don't see that energy companies that supply electrons are any different wrt the amount they want for their kwh sold. but unless you are fortunate to produce your own via some home installed renewables and can produce your total requirement all year round then you are still at the mercy of those with money, i.e. power where they will charge you as much as they like since where else you gonna go to buy it. There really isn't any reasonable competition in the energy markets in the uk right now. quite a bad joke all round.
I wish there was more of a discussion around road taxes... seems some governments are trying to hide the taxes... to make sure people dont ask questions about how these stupendous sums are used... but seems mostly people arent bothered about such things
I just brought a peugeot EV I missed out on the $3000 rebate and got whacked with the full stamp duty. Sadly the car was considerably more to purchase than its petrol model. The sad part is that many will be drawn to buying the petrol model because it is much cheaper buy. Where do you think all the car companies will dump all their petrol models. We have a long way to go befopre we get our government to wake up to themselves. Trust me I am not rich I have been driving my old car for 27yrs and am extremely thrifty with my money but I don't want a planet that we can't live in.
Chris and Kathleen are bloody heroes! Litigation is not for the faint-hearted at any time, but to pursue it for a higher cause for the sake of this and future generations, and not for personal gain, is highly commendable.
I live in the Netherlands. I remember when the barge fire happened. All the news outlets were saying no one knew the source of the fire because firefighters couldn't get anywhere near the boat because of the heat. But still EVERY news outlet then went on to rant about the dangers of electric cars. They admitted they didn't know the origin of the fire and they STILL blamed it on EVs! Of course NOT ONE printed a retraction or even wrote an update. I was furious. I unsubscribed from my favourite news source because of this stunning lack of journalism!
- lol,, and we may assume you furiously resubscribed as the smoking EVs were removed from the carrier... origin stories are unimportant when contribution factors are analysed... Fantastic opinion...
All the EV cars survived intact that boat fire, they were on the bottom 4 decks, and there was no fire there. They had smoke damage but not the cause - the media is full of shit as there is a massive oil misinformation campaign, and much of the media is owned by Murdoc.
Sounds like the recent Costa Devario fire last year. It was loading used cars and the fire got going the firemen couldn’t get near it to put it out. It burnt for days. Initially blamed EV but then found out no EV,s onboard. That sort of put a spanner in the works but no retraction by news service.
Maybe Felicity Ace then, that was a biggie, the captain said it was started by an EV and widely reported as such. When footage of fire via security cameras and fire boats viewed noted two things. No EV,s on the deck the fire started and none on the deck that the fire could not be put out on. It seems that the main problem with the RORO ships is the decks are made as open as possible to pack as many cars in as possible and they are now using each deck as the main fire retention system coupled with Halon suppressors. Turns out once the cars ignite (Ice vehicles or otherwise) the system is inadequate and the fire spreads throughout the entire deck getting oxygen from the stairwells and open hatches. Turns out that ICE cars compacted that closely cannot be extinguished. Then we need to consider ICE cars are about 50 times more likely to catch fire than an EV,s and the 6 or so RORO fires in the last few years make sense. The ship builders, owners, registrars and insurance company’s don’t want to blame the ship designs so guess who is to blame? Further, each car on the ship contains enough fuel to drive it on, off and around the docks so a couple of litres of volatile fuel that is highly vaporised because of the heat of the boat. Then there is the various oils, engine oil, transmission, possibly diff oil and all the plastics are flammable.
Unfortunately the fire investigation people are saying that the ignition was unlikely to be EV,s even on those ships who were carrying them due to where the fires started and on RORO ships it doesn’t matter that much what the cars drive trains are, once they start burning they cannot be extinguished.
Different story on land, on road etc. but here an interesting stat. Of the 9 confirmed EV fires in Australia from our 150,000 size fleet, 3 were burnt because house caught fire in unrelated incident and set car alight, one crashed at 160k/h (Tesla and computer downloaded) one was home built EV, one was arson and the rest were generally accident damage. In that same time there have been literally hundreds of ICE vehicle fires. Australian stats list ICE vehicles at about 100 times more likely to catch alight than EV,s but those stats won’t mean much until the EV fleet is at least 10 years old. Overseas stats put it between 50 to 1 and 20 to 1 depending on the country. Later uptake countries like Australia seem to be getting safer EV,s but not much change with ICE vehicles in last 10 years.
I am a bit worried that the UK (and many others) is going to deal with this monumental change/ transition in the same messy, stupid, ridiculous and uninspired way it dealt with Brexit
Thanks Rob and the fully charged team, and congratulations to Chris and kathleen who have inspired everyone to stand up for what is right as these arguments play out in all countries.
These two are absolute legends. Their battle is an inspiration and I’m now committed to making my own difference in the electrification and renewable sectors. As a newspaper journalist I am now bored with reporting local news and want to have a bigger impact, shining a light on the benefits of EVs and solar and how we are being held ransom by our political leaders and robbed by corporations. See you at the Sydney show.
Good luck. I wonder if you will be able to get published? The media is often funded by fossil fuel car manufacturers. This seems to bias what gets published. I really hope you can make a positive contribution.
@@robertwhite3503 I hope so, they can only hold back the tide for so long. Worst case, I’ll just focus on my own RUclips channel, which is how Chris started.
If you want the real story look at the limitations of the grid.
Australian GDP is $1.5 trillion.
Gross Domestic Product.
Australian national grid is 1million klm.
Australian national grid costs 1million $/klm.
= $1TRILLION.
No fossil fueled future needs 5 TIMES more electricity.
5 TIMES bigger national electric grid.
The existing national grid was built over 100years.
So 5 TIMES bigger national grid is insanely uneconomic.
Nuclear electricity is constrained by the national grid size and cost to expand.
Distant renewables have the same grid constraint.
Nuclear promoters say grid gosts make distant renewables uneconomic.
Nuclear promoters say fossil fueled future's CO2 emissions must be replaced.
Nuclear then ignores how constrained the existing national grid capacity is.
Basically they want to fill the grid with their nuclear electricity, monopolise the only grid Australia has and only supply 20% of Australia's clean electricity.
Government disaster insurance
Government cashflow guarantees
And still the world's CO2 emissions proliferating.
Sky News, Murdoch press, is murderous in their criticism of any alternative.
Murdoch Fox News has just paid $1billion settlement for saying the wrong thing.
Are you looking for a story about the real elephant in the room ???
@@stephenbrickwood1602 all very interesting. I’d like to see more of a decentralised system with roof top solar feeding into neighbourhood or suburban batteries. And definitely not neighbourhood nuclear, or any nuclear for that matter. And yes, humanity is being poisoned by Murdoch.
@Stan-at-KangarooIslandTV
You maybe interested.
Numbers are important.
The nuclear promoters tipped me off to how expensive the new bigger grid will cost. They are right about the total mass of money.
The nuclear base their baby on
No CO2 future.
No fossil fueled future.
Grids are extremely expensive to construct.
Then, ignore THAT all centralised electricity generation needs a grid and a 5 times bigger grid for their dream of a clean no fossil fueled future.
In Australia, 20 million buildings and, therefore, 20 million customers.
And 20million rooftops, on buildings connected to the grid.
And 20million vehicles most parked at buildings 23hrs every day.
And an incredibly expensive grid that can be UNLOADED from buildings loads.
75%of grid demand is buildings.
20million × 6.6kw rooftop is 660Gwh daily.
20million × 100kwh EVs batteries
is 2,000gWh, daily storage. Dispatchable.
Avg daily drive is 7kwh.
Fossil fueled Electricity generation
25gW × 24hrs is 600gWh maximum if you are lucky. 300gWh avg. Less than EVs + rooftops.
Customers will abandon the grid and look for the no grid solution, basically offgrid in the city, Hahaha.
The government would have to step in with legislation to stop the cash drain. Stop grid abandoning by customers.
Australia has Snowy 2's exploding budget because of the new grid costs to make the mass of new electricity flow.
My concern is that the government will step in early and make a nuclear start, and as the budget explodes, say we have invested too much to abandon it.
I am reminded of the Australian submarines' french failure, which are now USA nuclear.
Nuclear submarines are a good military decision.
I am reminded of Snowy 2's budget failure, it maybe abandoned.
Electric vehicles and rooftop PV and the existing grid are perfect.
1, The EV battery is free with the vehicle.
2, The existing grid exists.
3, The rooftops exist, no new construction or new grid construction.
4, Rooftop PV is cheaper installed than standard windows $/ m2.
5, 33m2 is only a small part of a roof.
The world can copy Australia and stop CO2 emissions worldwide.
NOBODY does the maths, and both sides have agendas,
Just the existing grid is a $56 billion cash flow business and owners have reduced maintenance costs to aged generation plants to improve today's profits.
Add the imported petroleum $ cash flows, and we have a massive fossil industry fighting to stay alive.
Elon Musk knows that he is building an energy business, and other automotive manufacturers know this as well.
I am just speaking up because I hate bs, and it is a political decision that needs to be based on facts.
So far, the LNP in Australia has made 2 major economic mistakes. The Snowy and the French submarines.
Now they are promoting nuclear electricity.
You will care about the costs, and your family will care.
Thanks again for this opportunity Robert. Hoping that our efforts won't be in vain by a silly, backward, tax by our Commonwealth government.
Vic Govt, apparently. State Duty.
@@linmal2242 Chris knows. He took the tax to the High Court. He means that he hopes the unconstitutional State Tax isn't replaces by a similar constitutional Federal Tax.
Thanks for doing what you did mate!
@@rendezone Glad to have helped as it was urgently needed!
Chris, well done, mate! Now we need you to pop over to here and stop our -dictatorship- government from making the same mistakes.
Tax Pollution, not the Solution!
Thanks to Chris and Kathleen for their amazing, selfless efforts.
Yes, we are the lucky country, not the clever country.
I'll use that Kathleen.
The solution to a problem that doesn't exist !
Thank you Robert and your guests too for this podcast.
Your enthusiasm for EVs is fantastic, I'm so happy for you. I will never be able to afford an EV myself, but I don't envy those who can, my daily is a 50cc scooter which gets around 100mpg. Thank you.
Iceland just speedily enacted a law that does exactly this at the end of last year. We now have to report the mileage status of the car every 30 days, and pay around 3 uk pence pr km for EVs and around 1 or 2 pence for Plug-In Hybrids. Same exact logic was applied "gas tax is paying for the roads, now you have to pay your fair share!". Never mind that we just approached 50% of newly registered cars being EVs, but in total we are somewhere between 6-8% of the total fleet. And never mind the societal benefit from not polluting our cities, not importing gas from dubious countries, etc etc. Also, just as we are moving away from EV buyers being the nerdy "enthusiasts" among us, to your every-man skeptic, who still needs some convincing, and a healthy incentive. Now the benefits are far from as clear cut. This also affects the rural EV owners much worse, since their average km pr month are so much higher. Charger infrastructure is bad in rural Iceland to begin with, and now there is little to no chance that anyone but the most evangelic EV enthusiasts there will go electric. Very very sad.
We just paid $400 in EV tax here in Texas for our new 2023 Bolt EUV. When you buy a new car here it comes with a 2 year registration, so the fee is $200 per year and the $400 covers the two years granted. This is purely a punishment tax on EVs, because it's Texas and the oil and gas industry owns the legislature and entire government. I accept that much of the state coffers are filled will gasoline tax paid at the pump and since our EV doesn't use gas, we need to pay our fair share. $200 a year is arbitrary and clearly not fair. The car is my wife's commuter car and her daily trip is only 28 miles. This does not add up to much annual mileage. The gasoline tax at the pump is $0.20 cents per gallon and the 2010 Prius we are retiring only used about 200 gallons a year so over it's life, so $40 in gas tax. We already have to get pollution and safety inspections annually in the Texas, so why not require a mileage read each year for EVs to assess a fair amount of tax? Oh right, the assholes who run our state hate EVs. Duh.
Can you register your vehicle next door, say Ariz ?
We do a yearly MOT for safety in the UK, which is obviously right and proper since not everyone changes out bald tyres or failed brakes without that. But our 'road tax' (Vehicle Excise Duty) is based on how much pollution you emit - it gets very high for terrible vehicles and EVs are free. And our government are pro-fossil fuels by many standards.
A mileage read is silly tbh because it implies that only YOUR driving matters. Really, it's the driving other people do for you that matters. The police drive more than you do, delivery drivers do, massive juggernauts and the armed forces all drive more and weigh more than your family car. But it's easier to charge people at the pump, or just use income tax. Job done. There should never be another tax, if a human needs to administrate it when we could achieve the same thing with a computer.
@@jonevansauthor I misstated the use of the gas tax. It is supposed to be for road maintenance/construction not just to provide general funds to the state. I don't know that they keep the funds exclusively focused on roads even though that is the mandate. Taxing pollution is the most correct way to assess vehicle taxes I agree, but that won't happen in Texas any time soon. This state is the highest overall emitter of CO2 in the US and perversely, the people in charge are kinda proud of that I think. The way I see it, somebody has to be the "first ones up against the wall when the revolution comes" and it might as well be the Republicans running Texas.
Do you have vehicle-to-grid for your home? Then when the inevitable Texas winter power cuts happen you can be the one smug guy in your street that still has lights on.
Thank you for bringing this up. As an EV owner in Virginia we pay a yearly road tax as well. It's about the same amount. Like you, we are definitely paying more than what you're paying before with our old ICE car. How we fix this I'm not sure but I can imagine this will be a political issue in the future when more and more people are driving EVs and they're noticing their paying more in taxes than they were before (though some might be paying less if they're heavy drivers). Just with the increase in efficiency of ICE cars, especially hybrids, there's been a decrease in transit revenue so this is an issue the impacts everybody.
Here in New Zealand our slightly right leaning National government scrapped the EV subsidy at the end of last year and is introducing road user charge for EVs and PHEVs from April 1st. I think our RUC goes to the land transport fund, so I think it's fair that EVs pay their share.EVs will pay the same as diesel vehicles including UTEs $76/1000km, and PHEVs pay a slightly reduced cost of $58/1000km plus an admin fee of $12.88. RUC does impact PHEVs more because depending on how much they are driving around on electric, they could end up paying twice, once through RUC and again through duty at the pump. What is worse, is that all cars will eventually be moved to RUC which means that cleaner more efficient petrol cars and hybrids will see their fuel costs go up, and people with dirty, poorly serviced and less efficient vehicles will see their fuel costs go down.
There is a RUclips channel where “Geoff Buys Cars” is not yet a convert to EVs, a mild understatement. Geoff is quite entertaining and some of what he says does make sense as long as he is not on the topic of EVs.
On the RUclips channel "Now You Know" they chop up their content in to bit sized clips, so you can share a clip without sharing the whole programme.
It would be good if you did that for key statements. Like the "Luton fire was caused by a Diesel Range Rover". That the electric cars on the cart transporter ship, Fremantle Highway, were driven off whilst the ICE vehicles were dragged off due to all being incinerated. I would love to send Geoff that clip. Chances are he would explode in a fireball. Indeed whilst checking the name of the ship most content still says it was an EV which caught fire and started all the damage.
Hi from Victoria, Australia. Note that your podcast is peppered with fossil fuel car adds.
Bastards all! Thanks for a terrific series, never miss one.
The ads are helping the EV clan then.
Thank you Fully Charged Show and particularly Kathleen Davies for sharing the very practical and focussed list of tools for activism: 1 use your voice, 2 use your vote, 3 use your dollars, 4 use your time.
Really enjoyed that one guys. I helped support Chris & Kathleen as much as I could by chipping into the fighting fund. The law firm were great in keeping us updated with the latest. I really think the important take away points that need to be remembered from all this:
- this was exactly how NOT to implement an EV tax. It was so rushed and flawed at every point
- there persists (perpetuated by those in power) the lie that EVs don't "pay their fair share". The vast majority of roads I drive on are local, and I pay directly for them, like everyone else via council rates.
- if governments are looking to plug the revenue hole caused by less oil purchased... punch UP first. Look at all the companies that have paid ZERO tax for decades, take our money and send it OS for internal profit and THEN demand subsidies from us... fill the hole by correcting all that first.
- there will be some much saving simply in the fact we'll have better health outcomes and less strain on the public purse for national health care
- if a new way is required to extract funds from road users, apply it equally to ALL road users. Dare I say, drop the fuel excise, but add a cost based on emissions. This will incentives the move to EVs even with cheaper fuel.
Oh, and Robert, you missed a question from Kathleen that I was interested in. What portion of the fuel tax in the UK actually goes to roads? As you heard, here in Australia 100% of our fuel excise goes to general coffers. You could just as easily say that the cigarette tax here goes to fund our national roads.
Road "fund" licence/Vehicle Excise Duty & Fuel duty etc are all general funds like VAT.
They are not hypothecated (saved seperately) in the same way national insurance is not saved for your pension. It is in fact a genuine Ponzi scheme.
% of cars catching fire, ice vs electric, is overwhelming to the advantage of electric. However, to put off a fire in a a battery is difficult for conventional fire fighters. With the oxides therein, we need to build those capabilities with them.
They would tax walking if it was possible…
If governments ultimately remove the tax from fuel then charging a rate per km (or mile) to all types of car user seems reasonable to me. However, during the period of transition away from fossil fuel there is good reason to provide an incentive for people to make a change to EV by keeping their costs down (especially as initial vehicle purchase costs remain higher).
Yep a mileage tax needs to be introduced sooner tbh, it's no longer a question of if EV will replace ICE vehicles as most manufacturers will have stopped producing internal combustion vehicles by 2030.
I'm seeing lots of EV's on the road now so they need to start paying their fair share, plus the majority of EV drivers can afford it tbh as they sit in the higher income bracket, it's the less well off driving ICE vehicles who are now subsidising them..
UK govt wanted road pricing AND fuel duty. As you say fuel duty makes less and less sense these days. Road pricing with some linkage to vehicle weight (remember all those "heavy EVs are destroying our roads" scare stories) sounds good to me, (as a driver of a small diesel SUV).
The best thing about the 2.5 cents per kilometre tax is how administratively inconvenient it was. Instead of say averaging it out by just adding an offensive extra $500 to the yearly rego fee, which would have been bad enough, some halfwit decided to create extra paperwork for the poor bloody public to deal with as well. The thing that really really cheeses me off is having to fill out time wasting, ambiguous gobbledegook government forms.
Per mile should be easy. VIN plus odometer reading.
@@AnonYmous-rw6un NO IT WOULDN"T. Every driver in the country would be filling their declaration every year and the tax office would be receiving, in the case of the whole of Australia about 10 million different declarations every year.Then there would be the enforcement of the rules. It would not only be inconvenient to the public but create yet another quagmire of civil servants.
Here in the UK it would be very straightforward because the odometer reading is taken at every annual MOT test. The MOT details are automatically sent to a government database. Granted the MOT only starts when the car is 3 years old but the infrastructure is in place. At the moment all car owners must make an online annual payment which depends on the size and pollution potential of the car. At the moment the payment for EVs is zero but that is about to change. It would be very straightforward to implement payment per mile using this method and eventually, when the great majority of cars are EVs it would be the fairest method.@@markumbers5362
5 years ago when i bought my leaf here in Queensland, people a work came out with all the comments "tree hugger", "Coal powered is worse", "lettuce car", "tyre dust" , "fire hazard". It got keyed aswell.
I am a tree hugger in Oakland California. I own a Leaf. There are many EVs here. The push back is about trying to get gas appliances out of our homes. Some people hate change some love it. Our local utility had a $4k rebate on used EVs, that makes older Leafs free or close to it.
I drive an EV in Victoria and even more stupid with this EV distance tax was the fact that Vic roads did not know I had an EV and so I was not taxed.
We are hearing the same grumblings here in Canada about not paying our fair share👍
Cheers
In the debate about avoiding politification of these subjects, especially going after the billions handed out to the oil industry, I fear it will be a long time before we see any real change. Our politicians are deep in the pockets of the oil giants.
Interestingly the SA government (as was at least one other) was also looking at implementing the same law however they saw that an appeal was being made to high court so they waited for the outcome. I can imagine that if the appeal had been lost then a few states would have given the EV tax a shot. (no, it’s a Levy, states cannot tax😉)
I have been fighting the Victorian government regarding the building of a Water treatment plant next door to my property . I have been a labor voter most of my life . The politicians treated me exactly the same way as you were. I very much appreciate what you have achieved. I have owned an electric car for 2 years I hope this labor government learns from this as well as all the other State governments that were waiting in the wings to introduce this tax.
Thanks for all your positive hard work........We appreciate you
In Australia, fuel excise is not hypothecated to road funding. That is, the funding for roads is not reduced if fuel excise drops, and if fuel excise increases, this does not mean that more roads can be built. Roads are paid for from general revenue. Fuel excise is just a tax. When I bought my EV, it cost about $20000 more than the equivalent combustion vehicle from the same manufacturer. The tax on that $20000, and the tax on the electricity which powers the car, exceed the fuel excise which I would have paid if I had bought the ICE vehicle. That EV users don’t pay for roads is a myth - tax pays for roads - we pay tax - lots of it.
In the UK no taxes are hypothecated. Dennis Healey was Chancellor Of The Exchequer and said something like, "Taxes are like plucking a goose. You take a feather here and a feather there, in the hopes that the goose won't notice." Hence income tax, VAT (sales tax), National Insurance, fuel tax, alcohol tax, Capital Gains, Corporation, stamp tax (on houses), Vehicle Excise, Council tax, and driving penalties!
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
In NZ EVs will pay the same road user charges diesels do for 1 April this year.
As an EV owner it’s a good thing to stop the jealously that’s happening in NZ. Although the health and ‘avoiding pollution tax’ argument was very good.
It’s 7c per km and will be 80% of our costs!
Well, ICE owners should pay the true cost of their environmental destruction. Unfortunately I understand that NZ has just voted in a very reactionary government.
Loved this podcast thanks
You posted this within 10 minutes of it being uploaded???
I met our local member of Parliament, the Australian Attourney General, Mark Dreyfuss, also a member of the Australian Labor Party, and I told him directly I had voted Labor all of my life, but as a result of this embarrasingly horrible tax, I will NEVER vote for them again. He tried to excuse himself by telling me it was not the Australian federal Labor govt but just a Victorian State tax. The BASTARD. How dare he deny the fact that it is the FEDERAL Australian Government who sets and controls road taxes. They have lost me. FOR EVER.
Do you think the Coalition will be any kinder to you?
It is time for the UK government to remove 5% VAT on electricity, and add 5% to gas.
Absolutely. We absolutely must get away from gas. Its price is artificially cheap compared with electricity.
At this point in time, it's probably unlikely any further VAT might be added to petrol prices, given that Road Tolls are literally around the corner, with taxation moving from petrol and diesel to actual road *usage* Shell (in the UK at least) have already outlined their intention to cut the production of petrol and diesel by up to 40% on the lead up to 2030. This appears to tie in with the now current UK legislation, requiring 22% of *all* new cars and vans sold, to be emissions free. This of course means that 22% of all new cars and vans sold from now, will not longer require petrol or diesel. There are also now fines of £15'000 *per vehicle* sold outside this legislation.....
remove it and make it 10%
What a great podcast. Thanks for the information and can't wait to get to Sydney in February. Keep smiling everyone
I'm voting with my dollars. Buying an ev with V2L and, rewiring home with solar, small battery and AC generator port.
Heat hot water and during the day.
Run fridge, tv, lights and, one small air con at night.
Regional South Oz - just got to convice solar installer to do it.
Then I'll be able to do 400k round trips every other day (maybe once week if partner doesn't join me). So excise would have affected this ability - so thankful 4 people could change this. Hope for 5 on the next one.
A FANTASTIC EPISODE. I was a resident of Victoria with an EV during these times and remember it well. A big thank-you to Chris Vanderstock & Kathleen Davies on fantastic efforts and of course to Fully Charged for continuing to bring these stories to light. 👍👍👍👍👍
Robert, love the podcasts. I live in Texas and drive a Rivian, and in 2024 we have a new yearly registration tax for EVs of $200. I don't know if the fee will actually go towards a road budget, although that is the reasoning. Texas fuel is taxed at $0.394 per gallon which an EV would never pay. I didn't feel that amount was too much, but I understand that if the fees are not going to road repair, then the whole premise for the tax is just a lie.
It seems that Texas is going to screw you. $0.394 per gallon is going to be around $130 assuming 10,000 miles driven at 30 miles per US gallon so ICEs will pay less. Deplorable.
Looking at electrical supply today. On cold winters day. The UK is exporting to Europe. The demand is being met by 45% renewables. If it was not for the renewables. The fossil fuel would struggle to meet demand..
That’s a good thing. It means the energy grid is in transition
Many people in Australia is not taking electrifying seriously, I even had the guys who installed solar panels for me, asked me that "do you believe EV actually save the environment" while he drives a diesel Ford Ranger.
Most Aussies do solar to save money not the environment
@@matthewt5481 Saving money is also a big motivation for buying EVs.
@@samchen0079 that’s not a guarantee. It really depends on a lot of things. I’ve done the math on our own situation and electric would cost me more at this stage, unless I’m willing to downsize the car (not practical) or buy a different brand than I would ordinarily (not interested in a new unknown brand).
I’m reluctant to buy a new petrol car but at the same time the out lay for a similar sized (large SUV) electric car is basically double.
I think we’ll hang on to our petrol car until either it dies or the cost for an equivalent electric car starts to make sense.
Brilliant podcast as always from this channel. The way I see it is that it took several human lifetimes to build an industrial society based on fossil fuels..As Kathleen says they have lifted us out of poverty, kept us warm and given us transportation and electricity. Is it so unreasonable to suppose it will take one human lifetime, say 70 to 80 years to rebuild our society based on clean energy and battery storage?
It is not unreasonable to expect the transition to be 😮slow, but we have known of the need for fifty years already. It has become urgent for the last twenty years and now the cost of failure is measured in lives and property damage worldwide.
So in USA subsidies in various forms amount to $20 billion a year. Paid by taxpayers via taxes, then on top of that we get a fuel tax to pay for roads upkeep, which is routinely plundered for other "more needy" policies. So we taxed at both ends. Wonderful
If EVs are paying the registration amount, then they are paying for their use of the roads.
The problem is that they are not paying the extortionate petrol tax, and the government are losing their extortion / protection money.
They have used traffic infringement fines for revenue as a form of random taxation on drivers with cameras that have little to do with road safety.😮
Kathleen is an inspiration
Interesting - well documented
Same here in Canada, in the news media any anti EV article gets front page in the news even in the CBC.
I think tax on tyres is fair for everyone. The more you use the nore you pay, no cheating this system?
That will surely just result in more accidents from people using worn-out tyres to save money.
Then wake up in the morning an see your wheels and tyres have been stolen.
Fair for trucks. More freight by rail?😊
Excellent podcast. Australia is such a great place. Did some driving in east Australia about 12 months ago. Sadly not via EV.
I live in the U.S. state of Virginia, whose governor is a conservative. Approximately two years ago, a HUF tax (Highway Use Fuel Tax) was applied to both fuel efficient cars as well as all electric vehicles. The thing that jumps at me about this tax is how the tax goes up the more efficient your vehicle is! And if your vehicle gets less than 25 mpg, you don’t pay this tax! Therefore, the result of taxing people who are trying to do the right thing for the good of everyone and ‘rewarding’ those who aren’t or can’t try to positively impact our future. That isn’t the path forward.
That was super interesting, thanks!
I didn't realise that the 'unconstitutional' grounds wasn't for the type of tax itself, just that the state government isn't allowed to do it. If this had come from the federal level, it would have been totally fine with this ruling.
Absolutely love these guys and love their accents! 😁
I dunno. Not too happy that they don't have that upward inflection at the end of every sentence. Aussies used to be reliable in that respect.
Great show
The next question a fellow Victorian voter wants to know is, who gave our politians/senior public servants the idea in the first place? I suggested a lobbyist from an organisatio'n who helped fund the government's re-election got in their ear. My vote will win ultimately
don't hold your breath mate....
@@rivergladesgardenrailroad8834 Not going to hold by breath just my vote
Those lobbyists are waiting to ambush every politician in every state. They are loaded with money and lies. I have seen the extraordinary influence they have over both major parties to the detriment of the country.😊
I think just say stop burning stuff is a very simple to say on a very complex issue. If the UK disappeared in to the sea the different to global Co2 output would be less then 1%.
Shhhhh, don't give Rishi any idea's - bad enough EV's here in the UK gonna have to pay VED from April next year without them also taxing per mile!. They looking for more ways to make up the tax shortfall as we (slowly) transition to EV's....seems they doing everything they can to slow that down here, all gov incentives removed, no grants for anything and now VED tax.
These policies don't come out of the blue. They are coordinated by a network of "think tanks" that operates worldwide. Outfits like the IEA and CATO and Heritage etc all coordinate the push for the same policies everywhere. The main coordinating body is called the Atlas Network.
So Sunak and Co will already have heard these ideas years ago.
This is nonsensical, fossil cars already pay VED plus per mile (effectively via fuel duty) both still cause wear & tear and should be recouped in some way - all the more as fossil cars become fewer & fewer.
I think tax all tyres and we'll all pay for what we use. Maybe $100 per tyre.
@@simonspeechley2859 weren't you listening? The fuel taxes don't go to maintaining roads. They just go into general taxation. And all the revenue from those taxes goes to pay for rebates and tax credits for the polluting industries anyway.
@@simonspeechley2859 VED is supposed to be for emissions - after all its based on CO2 emission bands but now suddenly a zero emitting vehicle will have to start paying.
Although as pointed out above the whole system is nonsense as none of the tax from VED or fuel duty is ring fenced and is actually used to tackle pollution or even go into maintaining the roads.
In New Zealand, it has just been announced that electric vehicles will be charged, starting in April, a road charge of $76 per 1000km of driving. At present my leaf costs me about 5c per km. This will add a further 7.6c per km bringing it up to 12.6c per km. Petrol in New Zealand is about $2.40 per Liter and if you assume an ice car gets, say, 12km per Liter, then the fuel to travel one km costs about 20c. We are still ahead with an electric car but for how long before the petrol lobby finds some additional way to shaft the EV driver.
Any decent Leaf sized ICE will get 16km per litre on average...
FYI ice cars from 1950 did 12km, today it double that,
Kindness is always free😊
Once you’ve paid the Victorian government kindness tax.😊
This new tax has been proposed here in Pennsylvania, U.S. Huge registration fee proposed by our Republican state reps. Irony… we already pay sales tax when we buy power on the road! Some points made here jibe perfectly with the letter we’ve written to our reps.
The problem here isn't the per mile fee, it's that the fuel tax isn't directly paying for roads.
If it were more like the USA where at least Federal fuel taxes are directly going to the highway fund, you can justify substitution. Sadly in the USA states have introduced lazy fixed fees rather than using per mile fees, so there are now two payment systems that work differently.
Excellent. In a similar vein, perhaps Fully Charged could run an episode on ULEZ here in the U.K. and shame those councils who are obstructing them. And if #Stopburningstuff is now Fully Charged’s raisin d’etre, I think an episode in support of Just Stop Oil must be a priority. If national treasures like Chris Packham can put their reputations on the line, so can Fully Charged.
ULEZ is enormously expensive to set-up, London has spent at least £500 million to date on the camera systems alone, never mind the compensation scheme for ICE cars, most local authorities simply can't afford to introduce them.
I'd have a lot more respect for just stop oil if they just stopped wearing oil based products , vandalising things with oil based products, waving oil based banners , holding up traffic ultimately causing more pollution and most important stop causing deaths by stopping ambulances!!! If they JUST STOP BEING HYPOCRITICAL maybe more will listen to them. Bit of a rant apologies for the punctuation 😂
Great discussion, those 2 are legends, took on the Govt with a really thought out strategy. What was the govt thinking?? Really short sighted money grab, very disappointing from a progressive govt. great podcast , let’s keep decarbonising…
The only problem with the tax in Victoria was that it put in place by a state not federal government so you can expect one to come back at sometime in the future. The excise tax is charged to pay for the road system so all vehicle owners should contribute to the system above the GST charge.
But the trucks have never been asked to pay their fair share because that would be inflationary. That’s despite them doing most of the damage to roads and being the biggest polluters.😮
I’m shocked.
Mostly at the apparent surprise that a left leaning (and therefore historically a higher taxation leaning) party would be trying to g to introduce an extra tax.
I’d be much more surprised if it were a right leaning government trying to introduce such a tax.
To be fair, there are some other shocking views expressed in this video. But who has time to pick up on every point.
A per mile tax nationwide for every type of vehicle is fair. Buying fuel would be cheaper without a fuel tax. Unfortunately low MPG cars would not be disincentivised and additional paperwork would be necessary. But truck drivers in the US have had to deal with a simular tax since 1986. It's called the IFTA tax.
Actually a very valuable discussion, and I'm in full agreement with what was said, but I felt a bit frustrated that input from Chris seemed to be somewhat limited by what was clearly intense participation of the 'other two speakers'. (However, I've still given you all a 'LIKE' CLICK!
Odd how this struggle in the Australian Courts, went unnoticed to a big majority overseas.
Great chat to two fascinating people, shame that several times you were all talking over one another and it got difficult for those of us of a certain age that are struggling with hearing issues
I remember ages ago, some guys in the UK were running their cars on used fish and chip shop oil, and they were done for tax evasion. Did they appeal / get this crazy ruling overturned ?
'blame Australia' You sent the convicts here, now we are coming back to haunt you.
Having subsidies and taxes at the same time makes no sense. It just adds complexity. Better off to just end the subsidies AND the taxes at the same time.
NSW has something similar set to come in. Hopefully it can be squashed also.
www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/nsw-governments-electric-vehicle-strategy/road-user-charge
Can you guys sometime afdress the issue surrounding Hertz selling their Teslas, insurance costs being higher for EVs, and apparently this in part being due to the repair costs of EVs. Its certainly got me worried about the step to replacing my hybrid with a full EV.
it only a repair cost issue, the running costs were not a problem, and a lot lower as they stated. but being an in demand car, means parts will be harder to get. so repair costs go up. also, a lot of those cars that the hire companies bought, were purchased in 2022. its now been 2 years which is the usual time hire car companies start to turn over their fleets.
There are also many other options in EVs besides Tesla, BYD are proving very popular and capable. as well as the harder to get Kia and Hyundai Evs.
@@SydneyEV I heard others tell a very different story. Some are saying that it is purely depreciation of the cars that motivated Hertz. There is certainly evidence that insurers are charging EV owners more (at least in the UK and in the Netherlands). Now spare parts shortages could drive up insurance costs but that does not help those of us who find that on top of higher initial purchase prices, we are also expected to cough up more for insurance.
I agree running costs are lower, my hybrid has served me really well but I was just thinking 2024 might be the year to switch over when this broke. I'll certainly be asking the dealers some questions about warranty on the battery and if they cover damage to the underside of the car.
@@NickAskewI lt might also be because people hire the teslas and take them for joyrides and crash or they don’t know how to use electric cars and crash and also the depreciation of the cars because Tesla keeps lowering the prices of their cars.
Most warranties are 8 years or so, my oldest EV is 15 yrs old this August, the warranty was only 5 yrs, a recent condition test showed its lost 29% capacity since new, after nearly 15 years. it had 110Km range new, it still gets 80Km range, more than enough for the 10km it does on average every day. As for road damage hat would be an insurance issue, as its not a manufacturing defect. Similar things can happen to any car, a small rock through the sump of a new Skoda Superb and wrote off my friends car. that sort of even can happen, but considering there are now about 20 Million Evs on the road worldwide now, its not appearing to be a known issue. If considering going full EV, keep a diary of each days driving distance and where to, and after a month get a good idea of your actual use case. then make a decision based on your particular situation. if say driving just 30Km a day, that will take about 6Kwh each night to recharge. Where do you regularly drive away from home, and see if there is any fast charging options near there, or if you will even need them. My father did this before buying, and decided a shorter range cheaper Nissan LEAF was a perfect fit. @@NickAskew
Beat up story by the Right Wing media. Facts Matter.
The most alarming thing that came out of the video for me was that the court's decision was so close. Perhaps the 'Swiss way' would have been a better test- put it to a (internet-based) referendum.
Looking forward to seeing the show down under. I am interested to hear how others are dealing insurance premiums for EV’s in Australia. I was recently quoted almost $3800 more than my current old gas guzzler. Is this happening anywhere else in the world?
Tax them according to electric consumption, just as you would an HVAC system. Road taxes, and I have no idea how you tax for road maintenance, but it should should also be assessed.
is here, notification (set to all) received, subscribed, gave you a 👍! 🙂Audio video is good.
With the money we pay for rego and excise we should be driving on perfectly levelled gold plated roads. But, with a few exceptions, our highways are a disgrace. This causes even more costs due to higher fuel consumption, tyre and suspension wear and smashed wind screens. I drivecan EV for 5 years by now andvthe charging net2ork outside the Tesla bubble is a dogs breakfast with mostly single 50kW chargers which are highly unreliable. Why the hell on earth should we pay any money for poor roads and infrastructure? Chris and Kathleen are true heroes......we should be taxed on the true overall cost for the community including health and environment. Would be an eye opener for many.
Tax free electric vehicle transport sounds like a good idea. The expensive cost of transport (also energy) in the UK holds everybody back from achieving their goals , whether they use an electric bicycle, car, van, bus, or train.
It's crazy with the idea of an ev tax. Electricity is mainly a ton of taxes and fees, but as evs are so efficient, the authorities feel they are losing out
It depends. If some of your petrol tax is diverted to road upkeep and road expenses, then I think it fair that BEV drivers pay their fair share for road upkeep. That's sort of the case here in NZ.This money is reserved for "roading" as they say here (but only state highway roads) . Petrol users pay this "road user charge" in the duty on petrol , plus GST and around 18c/l carbon charge. Diesel users don't pay this charge in the price of diesel, which is why it is significantly cheaper. That's because if you use diesel on your farm or business or heating, you shouldn't have to pay it. Instead diesel vehicles pay a road user charge of around $75 / 1,000 kms, or 7.5c/km. It's a large amount of money. (In the UK you separate the diesel into red and some other colour) . BEV owners now will start paying RUC at this same rate. So in Victoria you are paying just one third of what we'll be paying in NZand here no one makes any fuss whatsoever, and the AA and motoring lobbies are strongly supportive of this RUC on BEVs. NZ has 25 million real sheep and 5 million human sheep. Plug in hybrids will pay a lower rate. The other thing is that as in Australia, local councils pay for all the rural roads through the rates. The government intends to even things up even further by requiring all drivers, including petrol, to pay RUC. You have to report your mileage and pay in advance or given a month or two grace. NOW, actually I don't object to this as a point of principle, but what I do object to is that ICEV drivers not paying for the damage their pollution causes, whether to the climate, or to the public's health or the noise or fumes etc. Nor does it recognise the huge state / tax subsidies oil and other CO2 producing industries companies get in so many ways. (eg billions of dollars in free carbon credits) A carbon charge of 18c/litre or about 2 c/km is nowhere near enough, and needs to be at least three times this amount or much much more.- it is nowhere near high enough to change drivers' buying habits. Such a charge would bring in a couple of billion dollars annually to invest in renewable energy, energy efficiency, energy conversion etc. At the moment the 18c carbon charge just goes into the consolidated account. The cost to NZ of buying overseas "credits" to make up for our continued emissions will be billions of dollars, which the tax payer will be paying but not ICEV drivers. It is incredibly frustrating how scientifically ignorant, cynical and devious our politicians are. (In addition BEV purchase rebates are now cancelled) To be paying nearly $1,000 pa for the privilege of driving NZ's roads on an average annual mileage will make a lot of people think twice before going electric.
Morning
The new NZ government have also introduced this, and they are removing the Ute tax which was to reduce diesel purchases.
But I expected this, as this national government also has in its policies, to allow new oil explorations.
I feel they need a science advisor explaining the real world.
I can't stop laughing.
In Ohio, USA, I pay 250.00 in reg. tax every year when I get renewal sticker . Really I understand it for road repair that gas tax is [SUPPOSED] to pay for.
“The middle class is being squeezed in Australia” , sounds like most countries in the world today ..... wealth is trickling upwards ....
The EV tax was too early and clunky. Governments are going to have to make up for lost excise somehow - so a tax of some sort is inevitable.
Possibly...but as they said: subsidies for fossil fuel industries more than outweigh the lost revenue...so it's not so much there's less money, it's just whose pocket is it in?
Fossil Fuel subsidies are def overdue for cutting.
Fossil fuel imports contribute to a lot of UK revenue leaving the country. The money EV drivers save if spent in the UK benefit society economically and environmentally.
I wholly agree & road pricing is the fairest way to do it.
Bobby's got me enraged
In some places, ev taxes are 10 times higher than petrol to compensate for the loss of petrol taxes.
Every country need taxes so it is the right thing to do, govt should calculate the petrol tax losses vs the bhp and tax accordingly
Where are they ten times higher?🤔
I was in London the other at the BBC earth experience which was an amazing event.
When we left there walking along we saw notices on the lamp posts warning people to not let their engine idle or will get a hefty fine, which I thought was a great idea. But how let down was I when I turned the corner to see a new double decker bus in bus stand front door open with the engine idling and the driver talking to another bus driver in front of him.. The bus looked new albeit it had the round rear end of the old routemaster bus so I assume it was a hybrid. Why penalise motorists with ULEZ zones etc. when the greener option is just as bad.
Beauty mate 😎
Robert, can the live event please come to the East Coast of North America?
I have been humbled by what has been achieved here. But I am glad there are other people in Australia who can see how dumb it is here.
They should stop all unnecessary taxes and subsidies. What companies are actually profiable? What businesses wouldn't have failed?
Oh the virtual signaling :) then she says that she normally donates anyway... so its not an additional donation... these people :)
Chris and Kathleen are awesome. I contributed to their legal fight. However I do wonder where and how the government will tax ev drivers for road use going forward.
Interesting video about how the Electric Vehicle Tax was squashed.
I did laugh when Robert made his comment saying “ it’s as easy as Poo” which isn’t always that easy for everyone.. 😂💩
If a miracle happens and we get financially responsible politicians, then the problem of less fuel tax will not be a problem.
not that I don't agree with the sentiment that the oil industry try to get as much money as they can for their product as possible which does keep people poorer, however I don't see that energy companies that supply electrons are any different wrt the amount they want for their kwh sold. but unless you are fortunate to produce your own via some home installed renewables and can produce your total requirement all year round then you are still at the mercy of those with money, i.e. power where they will charge you as much as they like since where else you gonna go to buy it. There really isn't any reasonable competition in the energy markets in the uk right now. quite a bad joke all round.
I wish there was more of a discussion around road taxes... seems some governments are trying to hide the taxes... to make sure people dont ask questions about how these stupendous sums are used... but seems mostly people arent bothered about such things
Has anyone had an exclusion for house fire insurance because of an integral garage with EV charging point ?
I just brought a peugeot EV I missed out on the $3000 rebate and got whacked with the full stamp duty. Sadly the car was considerably more to purchase than its petrol model. The sad part is that many will be drawn to buying the petrol model because it is much cheaper buy. Where do you think all the car companies will dump all their petrol models. We have a long way to go befopre we get our government to wake up to themselves. Trust me I am not rich I have been driving my old car for 27yrs and am extremely thrifty with my money but I don't want a planet that we can't live in.