I have a 20kWh battery, no solar, with an EV and Octopus Intelligent tariff, I charge for 6 hours per night at 7.5p and discharge over the rest of the day. 95% of all my elec is at 7.5p in normal day to day use, 99% on days when charging my car. Been running this for 18 months. Using Victron and extremely happy at how solid it is. Coupled with Home Assistant it makes a powerful combo!
Excellent presentation, our province in Canada has introduced ultra low rates from 11 PM to 7 AM where the rates are 10% of the peak rate. I installed a whole house off grid inverter with 48 kw battery bank last November and have purchase all our power at the ultra low rates since then. At the same time I installed an 80 gallon hot water tank with a timer and heat all the water at the ultra low rates. I use low temperature air to air heat pumps for space heating. I may add solar panels at a later date but really don’t expect to get a very good return on investment on panels. We’ve had several grid failures and we don’t even notice when the grid goes down.
I am in BC and thinking about going with grid tie solar for our new home. We pre wired for a nat gas backup generator..now I think that just a home battery might be the way to go instead of solar panels. Bc hydro rebate is five thousand for a battery and five thousand for panels.
@ Update, I did add solar panels late summer and have powered everything off the panels since but I will need the grid soon. I will also be upgrading my inverters, taking out two LV6548 and replacing them with a LuxPower Lxp 12 Hybrid. The features that sold me were the grid assist, charging to SOC with timing , battery turn around efficiency and monitoring features.
We’re getting a lot of people requesting battery storage first now before considering solar due to the benefits or because their roof is not suitable for solar - great video as always!
Thanks for the kind words :-) I've been wanting to make this video for over a year now, but it's only now that home battery prices have almost come down far enough to make to battery-only systems viable from a purely financial perspective.
@@GaryDoesSolar I'm not sure if they are at an economical stage yet. Need data and calculations to back that statement up. PV with any quote I've had is far too expensive to get a return. And those quotes are from companies expecting to install it in 2 days with 2 people. Total labour cost was £2500 from memory. I'll look it up
@@allan4787 Hence, why I said 'almost'. Regarding "Solar is far too expensive to get a return", I don't mind your generic claim, but can you back it up with data? In the absence of that, I think your claim is wrong.
@@GaryDoesSolar Straight calculation 4 quotes averaged £11000 Estimated approx 3600 KWh per annum Real cost of £11k over 10 years approx £15k Works out at 51p per KWh produced Ignoring real cost, compound interest, about 30p per unit Import cost approx 20p octopus tracker export about 15p
A good and informative video. Just remember that CATL is a Chinese company, so if you are concerned about supporting Chinese industries, that frequently undercut Western industries through (state subsidized) price dumping in order to gain market share, or if you worry about China being able to disrupt the normal functioning of your/our battery system remotely or through hacking during a crisis such as a war over Taiwan, then you might want to look for alternative suppliers.
Hi Gary, Gary again. Thanks for this. Loved the graphics from 7:30 to 10:30! It's so hard for layfolk to visualize the production and management of electricity due to its enormity and esoteric nature. I'm in the batteries-only category due to my situation. I could start a blog: "Gary Does Without Solar" lol. Another advantage here is mobility; the hardware required is relatively easy to throw in a moving van and cart off to your next residence. Still looking for the right inverter at the right price and installer$ willing to break out of the gravitational pull of shiny $18,000 systems and trim this idea down to the sub $5K range. Give me that and a rate structure with a 25 cent delta between super off peak and super peak and I'm in!
its not like any part of a solar system i hard to take a part.. a big system have few bolts.. i would rather move panels then battery, have you tried lifting those things yourself 🙃 the shops that provide diy also provide installers cheap where i live.. my local installer wanted 10.000 € more then i ended up giving for 6 kw hybrid (and i even got a extra 6,5kw battry) it was so cheap in the end i doubled it after 6 months
Hi Gary, another great video and your great and explaining things. One thought you may want to consider or add to a future video like this is Bi-directional EV’s. Bi-directional EV chargers are coming in 2024 from the likes of SolarEdge. So if anyone is considering getting a battery they may already have one in there EV at 80 kWh. If you do the math as per this video and add it next time it would make a great addition 👍
Thanks for the great feedback! :-) And yes, I'm planning to cover V2H/V2G later this year, when hopefully we'll see more support for that technology in EVs...
@@DavidAKZ depends on the size, brand and installer. They're VAT free when supplied and installed by trade. I've just bought and set up my own, VAT paid, as it worked out slightly cheaper.
I've been considering this. My region recently introduced a super cheap overnight tiered rate of 2.8¢/kWh . My thought was to start with a few batteries and then scale up the battery compliment with the savings over time. Either investing in more batteries or in self generation.
Love the video Gal and havent finished it yet but on the financial front its borderline better sense financially to do nothing apart from switch to Octopus tracker.
Hey Simon! My pleasure and just in time for the weekend! The CATL news in the video has really set the cat amongst the (battery-operated) pigeons, I reckon ;-)
Great explanations. I reckon CATL is looming large on the horizon of other battery manufacturers like Panasonic. Tesla is pursuing a joint operation with CATL to manufacture LFP batteries in the US at a clear profit. They currently don't turn any profit from Panasonic batteries. Now THAT is some serious downward price pressure on Panasonic. Compete or go home.
I bought a 13KWH Growatt battery to power our home and it is paying for itself. I use only a very small amount of”day rate” electricity so most of my power costs 16p per KWh and I receive £10 per month for not using grid electricity between 1600 - 1900 hrs.
I have came up with this idea but without a grid or solar. On the same bases that a car is powered. No dependence on grids or solar power. Keeping in mind the scalability of the system to accommodate the future use and you will need a monitoring system that has the capability of handling a high capacity battery system. So much to take into account. I have secured this idea it is challenging but achievable. I’m just an Insurance Agent so I would have to consult experts in the field of renewable energy and engineers. Wishful thinking, huh…
I think it's great that new markets like this encourage new thinking. And perhaps your idea could be onto something big. Remember to protect your idea with a patent (if that's possible) and use Non-disclosure Agreements (NDAs) with any party you share your idea with as a means of protection as well. Good luck! :-)
There are at least two other considerations: Firstly, the likelyhood of you staying in the property at least for long enough to get your money back - if you move has before that point, then you are likely to be subsidising the new owner (it being somewhat unlikely your new house will have the same benefits - such installations are still in a minority). Your age might also be a factor. I've reached a point where my estimates suggest that the probability is that I will have popped my clogs before I break even.
I’ve been getting quotes for a home battery (considering GivEnergy All-in-One with a Gateway) from local installers and mentioned my concerns around moving house. The installer said they are fairly easy to have de-installed and take with you. Of course I’m sure the installer had one eye on trying to secure a sale, and there will be a cost to de-install and re-install too for course. But it does help knowing it’s possible (though if moving would need to check with the DNO at the new property that exporting at that location is accepted)
Very clear explanation but when you talk about the environmental benefit you should be taking into account the energy required to make the batteries (assuming the manufacturers release the data). Even this would ignore the wider environmental aspects of lithium mining.
Thanks, and good point. I found this article, which seems to be representative of other articles looking into the CO2 numbers: cat.org.uk/info-resources/free-information-service/energy/battery-storage/# It seems that a home battery starts to cut more CO2 that used to make in under a year. And with better technologies, mining and production processes, that can only get better. And finally, batteries are eminently recyclable, which also improves the numbers. I may make a video looking at this in more detail, once I’ve researched it thoroughly. Thanks for highlighting 👍🏻
Remember lithium mining is not just for the first product it is used. It will be used 100 years from now in some other battery or solution. Oil has taught people to think everything gets wasted right away.
Hi Gary, thanks for your sharing, it's always clear and easy to understand.Perfect! I saw a report says that if home users only install energy storage batteries without solar, the all-in-one has a shorter payback period than the inverter + battery combination, and the installation of the all-in-one machine is also simpler. What do you think of it?
In theory this sounds good, but in most countries you have to pay transfer fees and taxes when buying from the grid. When you sell back to the grid the buyer do not pay full market price. Where I live the fees and taxes are 2 to 4 times the spot price. Here we have quite large swings in the hourly prices so a battery could be used charging dueing low price periods and use it later. If you sell back to the grid you most likely loose money.
Nevertheless, I do believe there are interesting opportunities in many countries around financial returns on batteries, especially as prices continued to fall…
Gary, love your shows! If someone canNot get PV on their property...MOVE! 🚚 to where can access sun on your property!🌅 By design, most 'Industry Standard' Avg. House Plans are not solar ready... in fact the opposite, instead the industry mostly designs the avg. house plan with multi-faceted small roof sections, Dumb Dormers, & odd shapes with 0 functionally. And builders do Not orient house or design to accommodate roof solar harnessing...if fact, most house planners(& real estate) do even think about or even mention fact that homeowners may want PV on a property!!😥
I guess the home building world has yet to catch up with the self-generation world :-) Maybe solar tiles are the future, as they should hopefully generate power from all directions...?
Thanks for your videos, the explanations is easy and informative! I was wondering if you had the time to look into home battery solutions vs. V2H standard which is currently on its way into the EV market? The capacity in most EV vehicles is much larger than the average home battery. Will this be a better solution or will home battery be the prefered solution into the future?
Thanks for the kind words, Henrik. I’ve had a few requests for a video on V2G/V2H technology now. It certainly a technology I’m keeping my eye on, as it looks very promising - for all the reasons you state, and more. I’m hoping to see greater traction in the market, as at present there are really only just a few cars that support it :-/
When batteries are bundled with solar, most of the time they will drag the ROI of the overall install down. This is because batteries generally have a lower ROI than solar. When you factor the difference in the lifespan of solar and batteries, the contrast is significant. The efficiency losses of battery charge, discharge, AC-DC, and DC-AC really add up. Taking away a lot of the arbitrage margin. In almost all cases, simply adding more solar panels and using a high export tariff over an off peak tariff will generate a better ROI. I calculate that the cost of batteries would need to nearly halve to compete with solar for a typical use household. And even then the goalpost will move if storage is built into the grid. I understand that batteries provide power during power cuts. And some people that have limited space for panels are happy to dilute their ROI by giving a larger investment priority. What I don’t understand… is why almost all installs now include batteries, because to me they don’t seem to have a strong or broad value proposition. Is it a case of snake oil salesmen pushing batteries onto the market? Ozric
Thanks for your points. Will export rates come down before long though, when there is an abundance of solar energy on the grid (at exactly the same time as you’re generating solar)? I think at that point, batteries will come into their own - especially as they’ll be cheaper than today… 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar It’s a good point, but might come up against grid level storage or DNO’s blocking new installs. I think the smart move at the moment might be to max out panels but with a hybrid inverter to allow people to pivot.
@@adalovelace1150 In the future EVs can do vehicle to grid/home to help balance the network, my current EV can do vehicle to load (i can power upto 3kw load from the 64kwh battery). ROI wouldn't be as much of an issue as it's an added bonus from the car that you were going to buy anyway.
Been looking at adding solar but can't affor the £19.5k inc 15kw of growatt battery but see on Octopus only let you feed from a give energy battery. We are already on octpus go as we have an Enyak through motability, watching this has made me realise a battery alone could be a good investment letting us capitalise on that 9p/kw window for all our energy.
Greetings and thanks for watching the channel! :-) Now, that is very cheap electricity to charge a battery with. Worth doing some calculations to see how long it would take you to get payback - feel free to use the calculator I talk about in the video...
Hi Gary, another informative video. Have been following your content for some time now and I think I would be going solar soon. I wanted to ask if you are aware of any triangular solar panels? I have a hipped roof with a little flat island at top and the current proposed arrangement unfortunately can’t make good use of space. Googling suggests at least one manufacturer but is it technically feasible? Thanks
Another great video Gary. One topic which I feel you should cover, regarding forced discharge of home batteries, is the DNO export limit. If someone has a typical 3.68kW solar system and a battery with a 5kW output there could be a conflict. If you have a battery and no solar array, I’m not really clear if your installer has to apply for a DNO authorisation to export? Thanks.
Thanks Simon - and great point. ESO, soon to become NESO seems to be in strong favour of distributed energy generation - and I hope this can extend right the way out to residential properties, so that the minimum export limit can be raised to somewhere between 10 and 20kW or something. I'm no expert on distribution management, but I can help thinking this would change the game, especially with continually falling battery prices...
@@GaryDoesSolaragreed! I think it’s an overlooked topic but if the DNOs don’t really up their game it will really compromise the potential of virtual power plants etc.
@@DavidAKZ because their role is to ensure the efficient, safe and reliable transmission of increasingly renewable electricity in real time for the UK. They don’t generate or sell energy so ‘shouldn’t’ have any vested interest……… In the future, one effective resource to balance the system will be local generation and storage such as domestic solar and home batteries. Once vehicle to grid functionality is available widely in EVs the potential will be enormous. The question is why wouldn’t the ESO want to enable a vital tool to balance the system.
@@simonm9923 "why wouldn’t the ESO want to enable". Garry (a fellow Scot ) will think this is spam, but anyway. Why would you want to introduce competition unless you are forced to. If like Australia the 'poles and wires' provider was hitherto a monopoly , they have fixed and rising costs. Because there can be no duplication of the poles and wires (just like the road system) and there is no competition, there will be little or no innovation as an impetus for (positive) change. I'm assuming an ESO is a retailer, where there is supposed to be competition. But they are the 'dog' being wagged by the high fixed cost of centralised energy + poles and wires providers' tail.' I sort of agree with Gary that the solution is more (hone) decentralised energy generation and Demand Response Resource (DER), but its a bit disingenuous to say component prices are coming down when energy companies are making record profits . Funny about that hey ? and remember Gary, 'A Scot is canny with his/her money'. Thanks for responding.
I don't live in a place where outages are common, the last one was in 2019 before I got solar and a battery but I don't think they'll work for that. When the system was installed I was told that I had to choose between being able to export the excess or having the system working in the case of a blackout. Apparently the inverter shuts down when the grid is off for safety reasons. Probably a shortcoming on my installers and newer ones don't have to deal with that
@DavidAKZ I have saved thousands of euros, it's just that I'm missing out on that additional advantage of going for this. But that was never the main point
Nice to see the £50 referral bonus that arrived on my Octopus account on 23 Jan. Presumably this means it was also credited to you Gary, as a reward for all your hard work?
Another topic I've been wondering about, is what is the business model for those who run EV fast chargers? Imagine a possible future scenario. You have a fast charging parking lot. It has solar roofs, and batteries. Besides providing fast charging, it has a secondary business model as a VPP, or micro-grid, and can do TOU arbitrage. (Don't know how realistic this would be.)
Great idea - essentially batteries are multi-functional entities, and depending on the time of day and utilisation over that time, they could be commandeered to provide additional services (like those to the grid, as you state). That's the great thing about electricity - it's multi utilitarian - just like cash is...
I believe that Gridserve do this, saw Toddington Harper being interviewed by Bobby L on the Fully charged channel. It’s the video about their new electric forecourt at Gatwick Airport.😀
I am in search of a secure home, so safety is my top priority! I've heard that Franklinwh is excelling in this area and offers unique features that others don't. What are your thoughts on this? Is LFP really safer and reliable?
In all the research I’ve undertaken, LFP has always been acknowledged as safer than NMC. That said, Tesla state they’ve shipped 600,000 Powerwalls (NMC chemistry) to date and I’ve not heard anything about fires etc.
two questions, is the battery free and does it last forever Powerwall three cost 16K That a lot of pence to come close to breaking even. It will not happen. Can you say snake oil? Love the video
Great video Gary I’ve been thinking on getting a battery as we are on a EV Tariff with octopus energy. Can’t afford the solar and heat pump with stupid prices. Go Green they say!!We are paying 7.5p from 23:30 to 05:30. Would this tariff change with octopus or would you recommend to change.
Thanks, and that's not an easy question to answer as there are so many factors. It's one of the reasons I made this utility, so that people can model their setup with various tariffs to see what works best: garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/
@@wk54321 So, my understanding is that equipment sales will continue to have VAT applied. And VAT-registered companies buying that equipment can reclaim the VAT as before.If those same companies sell that equipment to the general public, the recent VAT rule change means they don't have to pas the VAT onto the customer, provided they are also installing the equipment.
Can I suggest. Using an EV plugged in you need to think in terms of 2 batteries in the EV. Battery 1, for the daily drive average 7kWh daily. Battery 2, for the long drive 93kWh, or 100kWh combined. Battery 2, for time of use in the home. Battery 2, for daytrading electricity for money Battery 2, for sending through the grid to the home from work. Battery 2, for distant away from home power. The big battery is free with the vehicle, Hahaha Hahaha 😊 Or free to be used whenever it is not driving. Most vehicles are parked 23hrs every day. Selfplug-in like the home robotic vacuum cleaner from a std low wall plug and trickle charged or trickle discharge. This feature and V2G feature would double the value of EVs or even pay for the EV. Daytrade electricity 23hrs/7/365. That is a huge amount of millions of small trades every year. Grid stability is the big benefit to those on the grid. Generation plant can maintain maximum generation efficiency and profitability with constant predictable demand supply. We have had blackouts when the power company was doing maintenance. It was inconvenient. And Expensive shift work, working in the early hours of the night. Self supply customer independence means this work can be done in normal day-to-day work hours. EDIT, just finished listening, excellent presentation Gary. You are discovering real world value today. No fossil fueled future means more electricity Home battery or EV batteries will be extremely important. Central electricity generation expansion means grid expansion. Grid capacity expansion is incredibly expensive particularly if it is an underground supply. $1million per klm expensive. But 5 times bigger with no fossil fuels. PS, Nuclear electricity expansion must include the new grid capacity construction costs. Home batteries are dirt cheap compared to new grid nuclear electricity.
@GaryDoesSolar I think new grid capacity construction costs are weighing heavily on the minds of the government. 5 times more electricity in no fossil fueled future, grid capacity must increase with central generation. Here in Australia, the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro expansion project budget has exploded because of new grid construction costs. $ 2 billion to $ 12 billion (or $ 20 billion??) The Australian government is still hiding the full costs. And the delays, 100 years to build the first, the existing national grid. The government is thinking about what everyone has ignored, grid costs. Fortunately dispersed generation at the ends of the grid is looking cheapest and the only option. I think the Germans were seeing the grid costs that is part of the nuclear electricity proposed future. You are doing excellent work. Your illustrations are very clear.
@@GaryDoesSolarJust for clarification. Distant renewables are 'concentrated' in the transmission lines to the cities central point of generation switch yards. It is as if it was generated there. If the supply increases to the millions of customers then the grid capacity must be increased, to the millions of customers. Renewables can be just like central generation with the same grid expansion costs. That is why keeping the existing national grid and have the customers generate and store the electricity from their own rooftop can be extremely economical. No new grid costs or delays to the future. The existing grid can balance storage as the weather changes. A little fossil fuels in emergency in winter is nothing.
@@GaryDoesSolar Just looked at the battery price drop video. I think that as demand on the grid increases prices will increase for the larger quantities of electricity. First tier pricing will be to keep the lights on. Top tier pricing will be for the heavy power users. Battery technologies and price drops will make home batteries look cheap investments and necessary investments. Daytrading electricity may pay for your battery and new battery. 😊😊 The grid is a fixed cost for the grid owners. Electricity bills will always have a grid cost as part of the bill. In Australia the grid cost is 66% of the electricity bill.
Yes, all AC Coupled batteries will have a built-in inverter (called a charge controller). And that seems to be the standard these days. I like it as it's just one box containing everything you need.
Hi Gary, thank you for all your insights they've been most helpful. I have solar with battery which I charge at night. How many kW of power is required to charge 3 x fox ess hv2600 batteries. It seems we use alot of units for not as many units of battery power??
My pleasure - great to hear they're helping you out. Now each Fox EE HV2600 battery is 2.56kWh, but they're 90% depth of discharge so that's just under 7kWh in total. You could charge all 3 in 3.5 hours at a charge rate of 2kW.
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you so much for your reply, it's very gratefully received and read, You have confirmed my believe's. When on force charge they charge at 4.7kw. Now when I go to bed at around 1am sometimes I still have around 60% battery power remaining with the house ticking over using between 0.100 and 0.200kw. It does spike to around 0.350 but for very short periods of time and never more than twice a night (fridge freezer) I have it charge from 4.25am until 4.55am but have in the past charged for an hour using just over 5kw. When I have got up at 7.30am I only have 70 to 75% charge. I can go from around 4pm right until 1am using only about 40% before going to bed. After using nearly 3kw charging the battery (half hr charge) I'm only around 10% better off than when I've gone to bed?? This doesn't make sence to me?? We are on the flux tariff and can see our usage on there but it's certainly not appearing in our battery even taking into account what was used whilst asleep and since charge???
@@colchestermaintenance1695 I think to answer this question, you'd need to put your installation settings into the Solarazma tool I developed, to see what's going on. Have you done this already? garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/
Hello Gary, Octopus 'Go' is not acceptable tariff to for home batteries. Octopus have just cancelled my Go tariff with immediate effect, when I told them I did not have an EV; this is despite the fact I was told when I signed up to Go that I did not have to have an EV. Go is not for battery owners. I was a big fan of Octopus until yesterday. I am trying to now get the Flux tariff for my batteries and solar without MCS certification and this seems to be a problem, despite the big fanfare by Octopus about not requiring MCS. Losing faith in Octopus, problem being there aren't many alternatives.
Hi Rob, you raise a good point and I had meant to mention that in the video, but forgot. I'll add a note to that effect. Was it Octopus that originally told you that you didn't need an EV for Go then?
Octopus are very clear at the moment that Go is only for EV or hybrid owners and/or those with the paper work to show they have one on order. It seems Agile might be OK but I have not yet done the calculations to see the break point for when the kw/h is too high, such as on 29 November last year when it peaked at 72p at 1630. However on average it is lower.
To the best of my memory - they did tell me it was acceptable, my recollection maybe wrong -Octopus are investigating recording of conversation - so time will tell. The non MCS install is the big question for me now. Love the channel and your presentation of the detail. Will give you the update of the non MCS install, it may be useful for your viewers - fingers crossed @@GaryDoesSolar
@@robmcmillan5936 if what you say is correct you could do a subject access request for all telephone recordings, I'll bet they don't retain them, then using the lack of them fulfilling the Subject Access request on time, you can do a small claim against them (you can do this online), as they have induced you into a contract and arbitrarily reneged on fulfilling the contract by cancelling your Go tariff. A battery setup is expensive you wouldn't go ahead with that without their reassurance.
Did you take standing charges into account, which is actually a lot dearer?. And also did you take into account when on standby your charger is still consuming energy from the grid. And most important overtime when the battery get grades it will take more to charge it.
Hi Harry, I try not to include actual prices for products in my videos is it quickly dates them, and I'd much rather the videos still had appeal in 12-18 months. But of course, prices are readily available from installers. Great to see prices continuing to fall!
Your examples ignore the cost of the battery. Let say you opt for the Powerwall 3 that costs about £7000 installed, you're paying £0.19 per kWh over the life of the battery to amortise the cost, based on the warranted total aggregate throughout of 37.8 MWh. That more or less absorbs any gains from time shifting your grid imports.
Actually, the cost of the battery is one of the main items of information asked for in the utility as it’s a major factor in determining the payback period. If it’s of interest, I cover amortisation in detail in this video here: ruclips.net/video/DCAMDeA00vM/видео.htmlsi=SudEs9AxLvQyMct9
As far as I remember , Octopus tariffs require you to have solar / MCS. A battery alone won’t allow you to use those tariffs. It doesn’t make sense in my head why they would deny someone with no solar or battery go on these tariff - they could be an edge case and use 90% of their energy through the night and would still benefit from cheap rates.
So that it costs you more. Technologies like batteries and solar fundamentally drive down cost and make things better. Electricity suppliers on the other hand want to increase margins, hence they drive up the price via a cartel which I suspect you have in the UK.
Our greatest problem with the cost of energy is the line cost, being three times greater than the energy used. We are trapped. Unless we go 100% of grid, this we can not afford here in N.Z.
My system defaults to home battery which means that when I charge the home battery and my EV at same time the grid charges my home battery and the home battery charges the car and end up with a flat home battery every morning. I need the grid to charge both the EV and the home battery at the night time cheap rate. Is this possible?
Hi new to your videos and I'm finding them a great source of knowledge. So I might have missed this in the video or in these comments but I've just been reading through the Octopus export terms and conditions. There is quite a focus on the electricity generation equipment you have as in it seems to be more targeted to those with solar setups. Has anyone tried battery only setups with them and what was their response? I'm just wondering if this is a historical condition with a focus on renewables and if Octopus are going to change this in the future. As you've shown above it can still have a focus on renewables given you can store the wind energy when plentiful at night and then sell it back to them during peak. Also this is exactly what they want as V2G becomes more prevalent with no local generation involved although maybe they want you on a specific tariff for that which they have just released? If there is one thing guaranteed that things will change in this space and trying to do any long term ROI / cost recovery calcs is near on impossible.
Hi Rob, if you're thinking about a battery-only setup with a particular Octopus Energy tariff, might be worth you emailing hello@octopus.energy to see if this would contravene their T&Cs... Agreed, trying to work out ROI over the longer term is not easy! :-)
Powerwall 2 is fine, the only difference with Powerwall 3 is if you want to add solar it has a built in inverter but for many situations AC coupled battery is best option anyway. Powerwall 3 won’t be available in the UK for quite some time anyway as the inverter and electrical setup here is quite different to the USA.
I can't give you advice, but my next video (out next weekend hopefully) will provide a great case for the PW3, not least because it's LFP chemistry and not NMC (as is the PW2). I feel that LFP is far safer in the home.
I see on eBay a 20 kWh battery pack for 4k €. Delivered from China. Why are batteries from Tesla, givenergy etc… so expensive? DIY using old battery pack could be as low as 1k €.
I've seen similar products, but those had an enormous shipping cost. But I agree with you: diy second hand is great, I'm collecting, testing, building my own.
If you've got the knowledge and skills to put a large DIY battery together, I say go for it! :-) I guess my video here is looking at the mass market of people who would like to invest in a ready made battery-only solution.
@@GaryDoesSolar Thanks! As of now I have around 20-21kWh in 18650 cells. I still need to buy more BMS, and haven't decided on the inverter, yet. Wishing the best for your channel! These videos are very helpful and I always learn something new!
There are varying degrees of EPS, which I describe in this video: ruclips.net/video/x83t1iCMXxw/видео.htmlsi=Mx0373iOLj606leG The EPS I talk about in the video you just watched was the highest level - one that can island the home from the grid and power all the appliances (at least up to the maximum power output of the battery 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar Yes, yes, I've seen this video! But I'm still clueless. The reason is I approach this from low levels (probably too low), and I always think about a battery as only a battery, not a smart device. Or because I'm thinking about a hybrid inverter and EPS level 5 is a given there. I think.
Government should give us tax breaks on them, allowing us to write off the sums again tax. It must be greatly in the countries’ interest to have millions of them.
Done some caculations and building my own battery storage to charge at night would pay itself back in less than 3 years, assuming night prices and day prices keep the same relitive price gap
@@GaryDoesSolar Yeah it's insane how much battries have come down in price. Will be intresting to see how mass home battery adoption will affect day/night tarrifs
@GaryDoesSolar If I use home battery with octopus intelligent to charge at night and then discharge in the day. Can I sell back to grid using this method (15p export) without any solar panels or do I need to have solar generation before exporting ???
could you setup jim equipment to charge your battery, say if you lived in a flat and still wanted to cash in on selling back to the grid at peak demand, person power is a renewable isn't it?
Hi Gary you say “set your battery to store energy when it’s at its cheapest” …….but exactly how do you do that ….ive got an App for my GiveEnergy battery but I’m not aware of any control to fill the battery at night.
Hi Chris, if you tap the cog icon at the top right of your app, it'll take you to battery charge settings. Here's a video to how you can program your battery using that screen (15m38s in): ruclips.net/video/DDDd_j8O5s4/видео.html
I want to run some solar panel + battery dedicated circuit in my house. To power my wifi,security cams a tv and fridge. Im on the fence about lithium batteries. If something goes wrong with charging them they can go up in flames right?
@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary. I am looking to put in a standalone battery (no connected inverter). I'm happy to look at multiple inverters. I want a no solar solution where I can charge battery from the grid. Use battery for home consumption. Use grid for home consumption. Export battery to grid. All needs to be controlled. Battery I am getting has bms, etc. So looking at inverter/s that suit that set up
@@dubjohnston Definitely worthwhile considering inverters/batteries with API access then, or at least the ability to be controlled by Home Automation. My own battery is GivEnergy which is highly controllable via third party local and remote applications, for example 👍
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary. It's more a cost thing. I can now get batteries (no battery inverter) for $4200 for 17.3kw. So it's markedly cheaper. Can I use a solar only inverter as a battery only in inverter? Then I could use that to export electricity and just use a big charger (like 200a) to charge them up from the grid. The maths on arb opportunities can be added sepelarately to inverter/charger. There is very little on setting these systems up
I still feel the payback periods are too long. Are you prepaying for energy or actually saving, many of these products have a real payback period closer to 15-20 years, as you only save a small amount not the full amount each month. Although I do think time of use metering should be more readily available. Paid export you should not rely on, as some countries now charge you to do this. Green, there is nothing green about a battery, they just use to much carbon to manufacture, and need to be recycled at end of life. Until the prices come down considerably I don’t think this is a good move for the majority of people. Long term a few SMRs installed by the government would have much more sustainable outcomes.
Thanks for sharing your views. I personally don’t agree with them and don’t currently have the time to debate with you but I welcome debate from others 👍🏻
To be realistic, the loss of energy charging the batteries, then converting back to usable energy with an inverter...add in the actual cost of the batteries and inverter.....unless you are charging them off panels....you should avoid the setup.
Having panels alongside a battery is of course better, but as I said in the video, I think a battery-only installation allows those that can't have panels to live sustainably - it's not just about the financial returns...
@@GaryDoesSolar I get the the concept, but in reality with the cost of the batteries and installation, you will not really have any benefits financial or otherwise. To recoup those costs plus the impacts of making/shipping, the few pennies you might make a day just are not worth the time and will not really improve your "Green" lifestyle at all. Without panels, batteries are pretty much a gimmick.
@@GaryDoesSolar A bit of a reality check on that concept is you will lose approx 10% of the power from the battery chemistry, charging losses and inverter losses.
A few pennies a day?? This would cut my costs by just over 2/3rds. After outlaying costs of battery, interverter and installation I would break even in 3.5 -4 years. If I were full solar then its approx 8 years, but again this is a much bigger outlay.
@@SarahStuff-p5u Apologies, I didn't see your response until now. That's precisely why I developed the calculator, so that people can see when they might break even on a battery-only investment. As I said in the video, battery prices might be relatively high at the moment, but they're falling year on year (especially this year with CATL's announcement). Towards the end of the video I demonstrated the benefits with a triangle (environmental, financial and home-backup). Soon, the financial aspect will be up there with the other two.
Have you made a calculation to add the money gained from arbitrage over the years? Id does not add up! Asa long as the batteries are expensive the payback time of batteries is 10 years or longer. Better put your money in the bank!
I did better than that - I developed a utility (as mentioned towards the end of the video). I agree that today it might not pay back < 5 years, but with battery prices falling like they are, it won’t be long…
@@GaryDoesSolarI'm on tracker tariff. By the time you take in conversion losses and cost per KWh for the battery. Tracker beats the price of these tariffs when those costs are added
@@GaryDoesSolar That's kind of what I figured. However, there is another wrinkle worth considering. What if electricity rates change in the future, so that the difference between peak and off peak electricity rates is less than what it is today? The financial case for a home battery would be stronger if it were possible to have some guarantee about the power cost schedules over the lifetime of the battery so you know what the payoff is going to be.
@@allan4787 I think tracker tariffs are great - they allow those who are not in a position to make a heavy investment into renewables, to still reap the benefits. But, they are tracker tariffs, and although, they're look attractive at the moment (I'm currently on Agile myself) they might not always be. Therefore, I think it's folly to make a claim that tracker tariffs win over battery, when they're only been around for a short time and nobody knows the future.
@@GaryDoesSolar capacitance drop over time, in lithium based batteries, forcing the user to buy new lithium batteries over time. nevermind the slave labor involved in metals mining, for metals used in lithium based battiers
@@benvastine257 Is that really your argument to back up your claims?? A bit disappointing, I have to say. I'm all for debate in the comments, but I prefer reasoned thought. Home batteries come with guarantees that they will last 10-12 years and people buy on that basis, so no issue about longevity. It is accepted that there will be a drop in capacity over time. Let's take Tesla EV batteries for example - still averaging 90% capacity after nearly 10 years. My source: www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration Slave labour is a non-issue these days with the removal of materials like cobalt. Most new lithium batteries today are LFP chemistry.
@@DavidAKZ In some markets, maybe - but not technology. Technology always gets better and cheaper over time, and in a fast-growing market, there are just too many players who I would argue are happy to take advantage of any market blockers such as companies trying to price gouge.
@@DavidAKZ "so the UK is not experiencing a cost of living crisis requiring gov intervention in 'the market' then ?" The inflation rate is based on a "basket" of items and services. Some will have higher rates of inflation whilst some will actually be falling in price. Battery and solar panels have been falling in price due to new products and more efficient manufacturing.
when the batteries hit the marked, the producers stopped giving anything away for free at night 🤣 most companys have monthly cost, and selling your energy from a battery will probbety just cover that montly cost.. after all a battery contains few kw (and we are also dealing with taxes/transport prices) i would not promice people anything gets much cheaper over time, green energy cost money.. in denmark we have a plan of cutting very little taxes/transport cost over the next 10 years, because of investments into the grid.. and who knows what a war in the middle east can do for example we allready have prices up to 1 € per kw and if your battery can spare anything to sell on a day like that, you have a giant battery that is not normal to have.. those prices comes after days without wind or solar
Hi Gary, I was wondering if you have plans to release a video looking into the pros and cons of buying a V2H vehicle rather than home batteries ? I'm thinking of buying 2 x 10kWh SolarEdge batteries but then I spotted a nearly new Nissan Leaf for £16k with a 39kWh battery, twice the size the SolarEdge packs and significantly cheaper and more practical. Thanks for all your work and great videos
I ran the numbers, 20 years to get my money back on the batteries. Batteries don't last that long. The energy companies will start upping the "economy seven" when more and more people start using it. Air source heat pumps are they way to go, they are cost effective, my first unit paid for itself in less than 3 years. Yes, it saved me over £2,000 in that time compared to my underfloor electric heating.
Hi Chris, yeah - battery prices could do with coming down a little more in order to make the ROI better, but it won't be long. Great to hear about your heat pump experience - I'll be looking into this later this year I reckon... :-)
How long before the government tax this? I have batteries and solar, but can't help thinking that the government will want to screw you and somehow tax this.
I think the whole energy system is changing, and so it'll be interesting to see how taxation might change too. In the UK, it is possible to earn up to £1,000 from a "side-job" and perhaps solar export could come under that?
I ask myself the same question. I think it might be because Octopus Energy wants to build sufficient data of EV charging habits etc. so they can present it to the UK government (lobbying for change?) - hence the focus on attracting EV owners. I don't see any reason why Octopus can't do the same for home battery owners too though...
@@GaryDoesSolar Maybe. Or they are happier with less margin on EC charging to grab more market share in this fast growing market. Just home battery installs I expect are small and won't ever be a huge market by themselves. If I did get a battery only system then getting on cosy looked a better option than flux as you get two charging windows.
If Octopus can still make a profit selling off-peak at 7.5p, then it makes good business sense to attract the highest energy users (EV owners with big 80KW batteries who might also charge outside of discount period to fill their EV). It's not always about the customers' feelings - Octopus is a business and this makes business sense. And, for the record, I agree with their approach to market stratification. They might make a smaller % per KW, but the increase in consumption should mean they make more profit from an EV customer than from a battery-owning user who does an overnight discounted fill then consumes nothing at full rate.
It is not kW it is kWh. We are talking about energy storage capacity, nor the ability to charge / discharge said energy storage device. Anyway , in Australia batteries are way too expensive at $A 1k per kWh.
How interesting that you push your products (home batteries) without any reference to the new legislation on where batteries are not permitted in homes. Are you going to take responsibility when someone’s house burns down from cheap defective products installed on your recommendation. Be responsible and tell people to talk to their insurers!
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
I have a 20kWh battery, no solar, with an EV and Octopus Intelligent tariff, I charge for 6 hours per night at 7.5p and discharge over the rest of the day. 95% of all my elec is at 7.5p in normal day to day use, 99% on days when charging my car. Been running this for 18 months. Using Victron and extremely happy at how solid it is. Coupled with Home Assistant it makes a powerful combo!
That's brilliant, Michael! So many people are worried about running costs of EVs and yet, through ways like this, EVs are so economical.
did you mean no solar?
@@markreed9853 yes I did, doh! Edited, thanks.
Do you have any sense on how long your return on investment period will be yet?
@markreed9853 interested to know the ROI
Great discussion, basically my 20kW batteries without solar is my winter set up 🙂 and absolutely worthwhile, definitely
Thanks Mark :-)
Excellent presentation, our province in Canada has introduced ultra low rates from 11 PM to 7 AM where the rates are 10% of the peak rate. I installed a whole house off grid inverter with 48 kw battery bank last November and have purchase all our power at the ultra low rates since then. At the same time I installed an 80 gallon hot water tank with a timer and heat all the water at the ultra low rates. I use low temperature air to air heat pumps for space heating. I may add solar panels at a later date but really don’t expect to get a very good return on investment on panels. We’ve had several grid failures and we don’t even notice when the grid goes down.
That's all great to hear, Jake - thanks for sharing :-) 48kWh of battery - not bad at all!
I am in BC and thinking about going with grid tie solar for our new home. We pre wired for a nat gas backup generator..now I think that just a home battery might be the way to go instead of solar panels. Bc hydro rebate is five thousand for a battery and five thousand for panels.
@ Update, I did add solar panels late summer and have powered everything off the panels since but I will need the grid soon. I will also be upgrading my inverters, taking out two LV6548 and replacing them with a LuxPower Lxp 12 Hybrid. The features that sold me were the grid assist, charging to SOC with timing , battery turn around efficiency and monitoring features.
We’re getting a lot of people requesting battery storage first now before considering solar due to the benefits or because their roof is not suitable for solar - great video as always!
Thanks for the kind words :-) I've been wanting to make this video for over a year now, but it's only now that home battery prices have almost come down far enough to make to battery-only systems viable from a purely financial perspective.
@@GaryDoesSolar I'm not sure if they are at an economical stage yet.
Need data and calculations to back that statement up.
PV with any quote I've had is far too expensive to get a return. And those quotes are from companies expecting to install it in 2 days with 2 people. Total labour cost was £2500 from memory. I'll look it up
Solar is far too expensive to get a return
@@allan4787 Hence, why I said 'almost'.
Regarding "Solar is far too expensive to get a return", I don't mind your generic claim, but can you back it up with data? In the absence of that, I think your claim is wrong.
@@GaryDoesSolar
Straight calculation
4 quotes averaged £11000
Estimated approx 3600 KWh per annum
Real cost of £11k over 10 years approx £15k
Works out at 51p per KWh produced
Ignoring real cost, compound interest, about 30p per unit
Import cost approx 20p octopus tracker export about 15p
A good and informative video.
Just remember that CATL is a Chinese company, so if you are concerned about supporting Chinese industries, that frequently undercut Western industries through (state subsidized) price dumping in order to gain market share, or if you worry about China being able to disrupt the normal functioning of your/our battery system remotely or through hacking during a crisis such as a war over Taiwan, then you might want to look for alternative suppliers.
Thanks - and agreed.
Hi Gary, Gary again. Thanks for this. Loved the graphics from 7:30 to 10:30! It's so hard for layfolk to visualize the production and management of electricity due to its enormity and esoteric nature. I'm in the batteries-only category due to my situation. I could start a blog: "Gary Does Without Solar" lol. Another advantage here is mobility; the hardware required is relatively easy to throw in a moving van and cart off to your next residence. Still looking for the right inverter at the right price and installer$ willing to break out of the gravitational pull of shiny $18,000 systems and trim this idea down to the sub $5K range. Give me that and a rate structure with a 25 cent delta between super off peak and super peak and I'm in!
Cheers, yeah - I was quite pleased with my efforts for that section :-)
Haha, yeah - perhaps a new RUclips channel coming along soon! ;-)
its not like any part of a solar system i hard to take a part..
a big system have few bolts..
i would rather move panels then battery, have you tried lifting those things yourself 🙃
the shops that provide diy also provide installers cheap where i live..
my local installer wanted 10.000 € more then i ended up giving for 6 kw hybrid (and i even got a extra 6,5kw battry)
it was so cheap in the end i doubled it after 6 months
Hi Gary, another great video and your great and explaining things.
One thought you may want to consider or add to a future video like this is Bi-directional EV’s. Bi-directional EV chargers are coming in 2024 from the likes of SolarEdge. So if anyone is considering getting a battery they may already have one in there EV at 80 kWh.
If you do the math as per this video and add it next time it would make a great addition 👍
Thanks for the great feedback! :-) And yes, I'm planning to cover V2H/V2G later this year, when hopefully we'll see more support for that technology in EVs...
Batteries are now VAT free when purchased without solar panels, also when added later.
Yeah, great news for those in the UK 🇬🇧 😀
How much per kWh ?
@@DavidAKZ depends on the size, brand and installer. They're VAT free when supplied and installed by trade. I've just bought and set up my own, VAT paid, as it worked out slightly cheaper.
I've been considering this. My region recently introduced a super cheap overnight tiered rate of 2.8¢/kWh . My thought was to start with a few batteries and then scale up the battery compliment with the savings over time. Either investing in more batteries or in self generation.
Sounds like a good approach to me. You might find yourself adding further battery capacity quicker than you think as well :-)
It does Gary! At Winter not much solar generation! Thanks to battery storage most days we did run on the cheaper night tariff all day.
Great to hear!
Then you need to dimension the array to match your consumption in the winter, no ?
@@DavidAKZ at the moment I am using all my roof space with 450w panels.
If I re roof my extension I have a chance to fit 4 more probably
@@arpadvarga3475 how many panels and what is your consumption in kWh for a month (say) and what month of the year ?
That’s really a great explanation for use battery storage systems without solar. Good work and helps people understand
Thanks for this fantastic feedback 🙏😀
Thanks, very consolidated video on a topic I've never seen discussed before
Cheers! :-)
Love the video Gal and havent finished it yet but on the financial front its borderline better sense financially to do nothing apart from switch to Octopus tracker.
Thanks Tony. I’m quite excited about the future of home battery proliferation 😀👍🏻
Hi Gary, greetings from Cumnor Hill! Just the video I was waiting for from you - thanks so much!
Hey Simon! My pleasure and just in time for the weekend! The CATL news in the video has really set the cat amongst the (battery-operated) pigeons, I reckon ;-)
Great explanations. I reckon CATL is looming large on the horizon of other battery manufacturers like Panasonic. Tesla is pursuing a joint operation with CATL to manufacture LFP batteries in the US at a clear profit. They currently don't turn any profit from Panasonic batteries. Now THAT is some serious downward price pressure on Panasonic. Compete or go home.
Yeah, agreed. I love the free market - the best products causing the others to up their game.... constantly! :-)
I heard that franklinwh is also utilizing CATL, so I believe it would be a wise decision to consider using it as well.
Clear presentation.
Thanks John 😀👍🏻
thanks mate, you are a really good at explaining things.
That's very kind of you to say - really great feedback to hear, thank you :-)
I bought a 13KWH Growatt battery to power our home and it is paying for itself. I use only a very small amount of”day rate” electricity so most of my power costs 16p per KWh and I receive £10 per month for not using grid electricity between 1600 - 1900 hrs.
That's great to hear, Michael - thanks for sharing so that others can see the benefits :-)
I have came up with this idea but without a grid or solar. On the same bases that a car is powered. No dependence on grids or solar power. Keeping in mind the scalability of the system to accommodate the future use and you will need a monitoring system that has the capability of handling a high capacity battery system. So much to take into account. I have secured this idea it is challenging but achievable. I’m just an Insurance Agent so I would have to consult experts in the field of renewable energy and engineers. Wishful thinking, huh…
I think it's great that new markets like this encourage new thinking. And perhaps your idea could be onto something big. Remember to protect your idea with a patent (if that's possible) and use Non-disclosure Agreements (NDAs) with any party you share your idea with as a means of protection as well. Good luck! :-)
There are at least two other considerations: Firstly, the likelyhood of you staying in the property at least for long enough to get your money back - if you move has before that point, then you are likely to be subsidising the new owner (it being somewhat unlikely your new house will have the same benefits - such installations are still in a minority). Your age might also be a factor. I've reached a point where my estimates suggest that the probability is that I will have popped my clogs before I break even.
Important points to consider - thanks for taking the time to share... and live long! (That's my plan, anyway - just so I can see that return!!!) :-)
I’ve been getting quotes for a home battery (considering GivEnergy All-in-One with a Gateway) from local installers and mentioned my concerns around moving house. The installer said they are fairly easy to have de-installed and take with you. Of course I’m sure the installer had one eye on trying to secure a sale, and there will be a cost to de-install and re-install too for course. But it does help knowing it’s possible (though if moving would need to check with the DNO at the new property that exporting at that location is accepted)
@@CymruDad That's good to know - thanks!
Very clear explanation but when you talk about the environmental benefit you should be taking into account the energy required to make the batteries (assuming the manufacturers release the data). Even this would ignore the wider environmental aspects of lithium mining.
Thanks, and good point. I found this article, which seems to be representative of other articles looking into the CO2 numbers: cat.org.uk/info-resources/free-information-service/energy/battery-storage/#
It seems that a home battery starts to cut more CO2 that used to make in under a year. And with better technologies, mining and production processes, that can only get better. And finally, batteries are eminently recyclable, which also improves the numbers.
I may make a video looking at this in more detail, once I’ve researched it thoroughly. Thanks for highlighting 👍🏻
Remember lithium mining is not just for the first product it is used. It will be used 100 years from now in some other battery or solution. Oil has taught people to think everything gets wasted right away.
great video quite informative..
well done sir.
Cheers 🙏
Hi Gary, thanks for your sharing, it's always clear and easy to understand.Perfect! I saw a report says that if home users only install energy storage batteries without solar, the all-in-one has a shorter payback period than the inverter + battery combination, and the installation of the all-in-one machine is also simpler. What do you think of it?
Glad you enjoyed the video, Crystal :-) If you have a link to that report, I'll read it and comment - thanks
another excellent video
Thank you! 🙏
In theory this sounds good, but in most countries you have to pay transfer fees and taxes when buying from the grid. When you sell back to the grid the buyer do not pay full market price. Where I live the fees and taxes are 2 to 4 times the spot price.
Here we have quite large swings in the hourly prices so a battery could be used charging dueing low price periods and use it later. If you sell back to the grid you most likely loose money.
Nevertheless, I do believe there are interesting opportunities in many countries around financial returns on batteries, especially as prices continued to fall…
Gary, love your shows! If someone canNot get PV on their property...MOVE! 🚚 to where can access sun on your property!🌅 By design, most 'Industry Standard' Avg. House Plans are not solar ready... in fact the opposite, instead the industry mostly designs the avg. house plan with multi-faceted small roof sections, Dumb Dormers, & odd shapes with 0 functionally. And builders do Not orient house or design to accommodate roof solar harnessing...if fact, most house planners(& real estate) do even think about or even mention fact that homeowners may want PV on a property!!😥
I guess the home building world has yet to catch up with the self-generation world :-) Maybe solar tiles are the future, as they should hopefully generate power from all directions...?
Thanks for your videos, the explanations is easy and informative! I was wondering if you had the time to look into home battery solutions vs. V2H standard which is currently on its way into the EV market? The capacity in most EV vehicles is much larger than the average home battery. Will this be a better solution or will home battery be the prefered solution into the future?
Thanks for the kind words, Henrik. I’ve had a few requests for a video on V2G/V2H technology now. It certainly a technology I’m keeping my eye on, as it looks very promising - for all the reasons you state, and more. I’m hoping to see greater traction in the market, as at present there are really only just a few cars that support it :-/
When batteries are bundled with solar, most of the time they will drag the ROI of the overall install down. This is because batteries generally have a lower ROI than solar. When you factor the difference in the lifespan of solar and batteries, the contrast is significant. The efficiency losses of battery charge, discharge, AC-DC, and DC-AC really add up. Taking away a lot of the arbitrage margin.
In almost all cases, simply adding more solar panels and using a high export tariff over an off peak tariff will generate a better ROI.
I calculate that the cost of batteries would need to nearly halve to compete with solar for a typical use household. And even then the goalpost will move if storage is built into the grid.
I understand that batteries provide power during power cuts. And some people that have limited space for panels are happy to dilute their ROI by giving a larger investment priority. What I don’t understand… is why almost all installs now include batteries, because to me they don’t seem to have a strong or broad value proposition.
Is it a case of snake oil salesmen pushing batteries onto the market?
Ozric
Thanks for your points. Will export rates come down before long though, when there is an abundance of solar energy on the grid (at exactly the same time as you’re generating solar)? I think at that point, batteries will come into their own - especially as they’ll be cheaper than today… 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar It’s a good point, but might come up against grid level storage or DNO’s blocking new installs. I think the smart move at the moment might be to max out panels but with a hybrid inverter to allow people to pivot.
@@adalovelace1150 In the future EVs can do vehicle to grid/home to help balance the network, my current EV can do vehicle to load (i can power upto 3kw load from the 64kwh battery). ROI wouldn't be as much of an issue as it's an added bonus from the car that you were going to buy anyway.
Great descriptive video
Thanks for the great feedback! :-)
Been looking at adding solar but can't affor the £19.5k inc 15kw of growatt battery but see on Octopus only let you feed from a give energy battery. We are already on octpus go as we have an Enyak through motability, watching this has made me realise a battery alone could be a good investment letting us capitalise on that 9p/kw window for all our energy.
Not sure the size of your array, but that seems very expensive? Worth joining this group to get a feel for prices:facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466
Greeting from iraqi kurdistan , kwh of electricity only 1 cent but for 10 hour in 1 day i think only battery without solar is very good for me
Greetings and thanks for watching the channel! :-) Now, that is very cheap electricity to charge a battery with. Worth doing some calculations to see how long it would take you to get payback - feel free to use the calculator I talk about in the video...
Hi Gary, another informative video. Have been following your content for some time now and I think I would be going solar soon. I wanted to ask if you are aware of any triangular solar panels? I have a hipped roof with a little flat island at top and the current proposed arrangement unfortunately can’t make good use of space. Googling suggests at least one manufacturer but is it technically feasible? Thanks
Thanks for the kind words about the videos :-) I've wondered the same, but I've never seen any... I reckon it makes a lot of sense!
I like it and liked it 💪
Cheers & thank you! 🙏
Your welcome, I think your videos are a great contribution to the community . Let’s hope that they draws them over to energy independence!
@@dennydewaal137 That's really kind of you to say - thank you! 🙂
Great video as always Gary
Look forward to hearing what you have to say about the PW 3
Had my pw2 a few months now and have no complaints at all.
Cheers Lee - Yeah, I've got a lot to say about the PW3 :-) Video should be out in a week's time...
Another great video Gary. One topic which I feel you should cover, regarding forced discharge of home batteries, is the DNO export limit. If someone has a typical 3.68kW solar system and a battery with a 5kW output there could be a conflict. If you have a battery and no solar array, I’m not really clear if your installer has to apply for a DNO authorisation to export? Thanks.
Thanks Simon - and great point. ESO, soon to become NESO seems to be in strong favour of distributed energy generation - and I hope this can extend right the way out to residential properties, so that the minimum export limit can be raised to somewhere between 10 and 20kW or something. I'm no expert on distribution management, but I can help thinking this would change the game, especially with continually falling battery prices...
@@GaryDoesSolaragreed! I think it’s an overlooked topic but if the DNOs don’t really up their game it will really compromise the potential of virtual power plants etc.
@@simonm9923why would they if there is limited or no competition?
@@DavidAKZ because their role is to ensure the efficient, safe and reliable transmission of increasingly renewable electricity in real time for the UK. They don’t generate or sell energy so ‘shouldn’t’ have any vested interest……… In the future, one effective resource to balance the system will be local generation and storage such as domestic solar and home batteries. Once vehicle to grid functionality is available widely in EVs the potential will be enormous. The question is why wouldn’t the ESO want to enable a vital tool to balance the system.
@@simonm9923 "why wouldn’t the ESO want to enable". Garry (a fellow Scot ) will think this is spam, but anyway. Why would you want to introduce competition unless you are forced to. If like Australia the 'poles and wires' provider was hitherto a monopoly , they have fixed and rising costs. Because there can be no duplication of the poles and wires (just like the road system) and there is no competition, there will be little or no innovation as an impetus for (positive) change. I'm assuming an ESO is a retailer, where there is supposed to be competition. But they are the 'dog' being wagged by the high fixed cost of centralised energy + poles and wires providers' tail.' I sort of agree with Gary that the solution is more (hone) decentralised energy generation and Demand Response Resource (DER), but its a bit disingenuous to say component prices are coming down when energy companies are making record profits . Funny about that hey ? and remember Gary, 'A Scot is canny with his/her money'. Thanks for responding.
I don't live in a place where outages are common, the last one was in 2019 before I got solar and a battery but I don't think they'll work for that. When the system was installed I was told that I had to choose between being able to export the excess or having the system working in the case of a blackout. Apparently the inverter shuts down when the grid is off for safety reasons. Probably a shortcoming on my installers and newer ones don't have to deal with that
Yes, the newer inverters tend to have various levels of EPS capability...
Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it ?
@DavidAKZ I have saved thousands of euros, it's just that I'm missing out on that additional advantage of going for this. But that was never the main point
Nice to see the £50 referral bonus that arrived on my Octopus account on 23 Jan. Presumably this means it was also credited to you Gary, as a reward for all your hard work?
Yes, it was - and thanks again for thinking of me when switching to Octopus with the referral code! I'll keep the content coming! :-)
Another topic I've been wondering about, is what is the business model for those who run EV fast chargers? Imagine a possible future scenario. You have a fast charging parking lot. It has solar roofs, and batteries. Besides providing fast charging, it has a secondary business model as a VPP, or micro-grid, and can do TOU arbitrage. (Don't know how realistic this would be.)
I think some EV fast chargers already do this; I expect it to become more common over time as batteries get cheaper.
Great idea - essentially batteries are multi-functional entities, and depending on the time of day and utilisation over that time, they could be commandeered to provide additional services (like those to the grid, as you state). That's the great thing about electricity - it's multi utilitarian - just like cash is...
I believe that Gridserve do this, saw Toddington Harper being interviewed by Bobby L on the Fully charged channel. It’s the video about their new electric forecourt at Gatwick Airport.😀
Thanks
You're most welcome, John :-)
I am in search of a secure home, so safety is my top priority! I've heard that Franklinwh is excelling in this area and offers unique features that others don't. What are your thoughts on this? Is LFP really safer and reliable?
In all the research I’ve undertaken, LFP has always been acknowledged as safer than NMC. That said, Tesla state they’ve shipped 600,000 Powerwalls (NMC chemistry) to date and I’ve not heard anything about fires etc.
You have convinced me with the numbers, thank you so much.@@GaryDoesSolar
two questions, is the battery free and does it last forever Powerwall three cost 16K That a lot of pence to come close to breaking even. It will not happen. Can you say snake oil? Love the video
Battery prices are coming down rapidly, and so that breakeven point will not be as far away as it was...
Great video Gary I’ve been thinking on getting a battery as we are on a EV Tariff with octopus energy. Can’t afford the solar and heat pump with stupid prices. Go Green they say!!We are paying 7.5p from 23:30 to 05:30. Would this tariff change with octopus or would you recommend to change.
Thanks, and that's not an easy question to answer as there are so many factors. It's one of the reasons I made this utility, so that people can model their setup with various tariffs to see what works best: garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/
nicely done!
Thank you! :-)
Thanks for another great video Gary - a question to all - with the vat coming off home batteries, will that be the same for DIY home install?
Cheers Andy - glad you got something from it. My understanding of the VAT change is that you must buy through a VAT-registered installer.
@@GaryDoesSolarit seems sellers are still adding VAT to batteries and inverters. Just looked up a few online sellers and all mention VAT
@@wk54321 So, my understanding is that equipment sales will continue to have VAT applied. And VAT-registered companies buying that equipment can reclaim the VAT as before.If those same companies sell that equipment to the general public, the recent VAT rule change means they don't have to pas the VAT onto the customer, provided they are also installing the equipment.
Oh that’s rubbish Gary, thank you. I thought my luck had changed as I need another battery.
Can I suggest.
Using an EV plugged in you need to think in terms of 2 batteries in the EV.
Battery 1, for the daily drive average 7kWh daily.
Battery 2, for the long drive 93kWh, or 100kWh combined.
Battery 2, for time of use in the home.
Battery 2, for daytrading electricity for money
Battery 2, for sending through the grid to the home from work.
Battery 2, for distant away from home power.
The big battery is free with the vehicle, Hahaha Hahaha 😊
Or free to be used whenever it is not driving.
Most vehicles are parked 23hrs every day.
Selfplug-in like the home robotic vacuum cleaner from a std low wall plug and trickle charged or trickle discharge.
This feature and V2G feature would double the value of EVs or even pay for the EV.
Daytrade electricity 23hrs/7/365.
That is a huge amount of millions of small trades every year.
Grid stability is the big benefit to those on the grid.
Generation plant can maintain maximum generation efficiency and profitability with constant predictable demand supply.
We have had blackouts when the power company was doing maintenance.
It was inconvenient. And
Expensive shift work, working in the early hours of the night.
Self supply customer independence means this work can be done in normal day-to-day work hours.
EDIT, just finished listening, excellent presentation Gary.
You are discovering real world value today.
No fossil fueled future means more electricity
Home battery or EV batteries will be extremely important.
Central electricity generation expansion means grid expansion.
Grid capacity expansion is incredibly expensive particularly if it is an underground supply.
$1million per klm expensive. But 5 times bigger with no fossil fuels.
PS,
Nuclear electricity expansion must include the new grid capacity construction costs.
Home batteries are dirt cheap compared to new grid nuclear electricity.
Cheers Stephen - and great thoughts as always! :-)
@GaryDoesSolar
I think new grid capacity construction costs are weighing heavily on the minds of the government.
5 times more electricity in no fossil fueled future, grid capacity must increase with central generation.
Here in Australia, the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro expansion project budget has exploded because of new grid construction costs.
$ 2 billion to $ 12 billion (or $ 20 billion??)
The Australian government is still hiding the full costs.
And the delays, 100 years to build the first, the existing national grid.
The government is thinking about what everyone has ignored, grid costs.
Fortunately dispersed generation at the ends of the grid is looking cheapest and the only option.
I think the Germans were seeing the grid costs that is part of the nuclear electricity proposed future.
You are doing excellent work.
Your illustrations are very clear.
@@GaryDoesSolarJust for clarification.
Distant renewables are 'concentrated' in the transmission lines to the cities central point of generation switch yards.
It is as if it was generated there.
If the supply increases to the millions of customers then the grid capacity must be increased, to the millions of customers.
Renewables can be just like central generation with the same grid expansion costs.
That is why keeping the existing national grid and have the customers generate and store the electricity from their own rooftop can be extremely economical.
No new grid costs or delays to the future.
The existing grid can balance storage as the weather changes.
A little fossil fuels in emergency in winter is nothing.
@@GaryDoesSolar
Just looked at the battery price drop video.
I think that as demand on the grid increases prices will increase for the larger quantities of electricity.
First tier pricing will be to keep the lights on.
Top tier pricing will be for the heavy power users.
Battery technologies and price drops will make home batteries look cheap investments and necessary investments.
Daytrading electricity may pay for your battery and new battery. 😊😊
The grid is a fixed cost for the grid owners.
Electricity bills will always have a grid cost as part of the bill.
In Australia the grid cost is 66% of the electricity bill.
You don't need a smart meter to have a "time of use" tariff. Many meters have separate night and day values.
That’s old school though… and restrictive.
What about the inverter? Is that usually included with the battery?
Yes, all AC Coupled batteries will have a built-in inverter (called a charge controller). And that seems to be the standard these days. I like it as it's just one box containing everything you need.
@@GaryDoesSolar Cheers
Hi Gary, thank you for all your insights they've been most helpful. I have solar with battery which I charge at night. How many kW of power is required to charge 3 x fox ess hv2600 batteries. It seems we use alot of units for not as many units of battery power??
My pleasure - great to hear they're helping you out. Now each Fox EE HV2600 battery is 2.56kWh, but they're 90% depth of discharge so that's just under 7kWh in total. You could charge all 3 in 3.5 hours at a charge rate of 2kW.
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you so much for your reply, it's very gratefully received and read, You have confirmed my believe's. When on force charge they charge at 4.7kw. Now when I go to bed at around 1am sometimes I still have around 60% battery power remaining with the house ticking over using between 0.100 and 0.200kw. It does spike to around 0.350 but for very short periods of time and never more than twice a night (fridge freezer) I have it charge from 4.25am until 4.55am but have in the past charged for an hour using just over 5kw. When I have got up at 7.30am I only have 70 to 75% charge. I can go from around 4pm right until 1am using only about 40% before going to bed. After using nearly 3kw charging the battery (half hr charge) I'm only around 10% better off than when I've gone to bed?? This doesn't make sence to me?? We are on the flux tariff and can see our usage on there but it's certainly not appearing in our battery even taking into account what was used whilst asleep and since charge???
@@colchestermaintenance1695 I think to answer this question, you'd need to put your installation settings into the Solarazma tool I developed, to see what's going on. Have you done this already? garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/
Nice informative video can I use Tesla power wall 3 to do the same without solar ?
Thanks - and yes 👍🏻
Hello Gary, Octopus 'Go' is not acceptable tariff to for home batteries. Octopus have just cancelled my Go tariff with immediate effect, when I told them I did not have an EV; this is despite the fact I was told when I signed up to Go that I did not have to have an EV. Go is not for battery owners. I was a big fan of Octopus until yesterday. I am trying to now get the Flux tariff for my batteries and solar without MCS certification and this seems to be a problem, despite the big fanfare by Octopus about not requiring MCS. Losing faith in Octopus, problem being there aren't many alternatives.
Hi Rob, you raise a good point and I had meant to mention that in the video, but forgot. I'll add a note to that effect. Was it Octopus that originally told you that you didn't need an EV for Go then?
Octopus are very clear at the moment that Go is only for EV or hybrid owners and/or those with the paper work to show they have one on order. It seems Agile might be OK but I have not yet done the calculations to see the break point for when the kw/h is too high, such as on 29 November last year when it peaked at 72p at 1630. However on average it is lower.
To the best of my memory - they did tell me it was acceptable, my recollection maybe wrong -Octopus are investigating recording of conversation - so time will tell. The non MCS install is the big question for me now. Love the channel and your presentation of the detail. Will give you the update of the non MCS install, it may be useful for your viewers - fingers crossed @@GaryDoesSolar
@@robmcmillan5936 Thanks for the kind words, Rob - and yes, would love to hear how things go 😃👍
@@robmcmillan5936 if what you say is correct you could do a subject access request for all telephone recordings, I'll bet they don't retain them, then using the lack of them fulfilling the Subject Access request on time, you can do a small claim against them (you can do this online), as they have induced you into a contract and arbitrarily reneged on fulfilling the contract by cancelling your Go tariff. A battery setup is expensive you wouldn't go ahead with that without their reassurance.
Did you take standing charges into account, which is actually a lot dearer?. And also did you take into account when on standby your charger is still consuming energy from the grid. And most important overtime when the battery get grades it will take more to charge it.
You've got to pay standing charges anyway - so makes no difference.
Be good to see some prices for home battery installations.
Hi Harry, I try not to include actual prices for products in my videos is it quickly dates them, and I'd much rather the videos still had appeal in 12-18 months. But of course, prices are readily available from installers. Great to see prices continuing to fall!
Your examples ignore the cost of the battery. Let say you opt for the Powerwall 3 that costs about £7000 installed, you're paying £0.19 per kWh over the life of the battery to amortise the cost, based on the warranted total aggregate throughout of 37.8 MWh. That more or less absorbs any gains from time shifting your grid imports.
Actually, the cost of the battery is one of the main items of information asked for in the utility as it’s a major factor in determining the payback period.
If it’s of interest, I cover amortisation in detail in this video here: ruclips.net/video/DCAMDeA00vM/видео.htmlsi=SudEs9AxLvQyMct9
As far as I remember , Octopus tariffs require you to have solar / MCS. A battery alone won’t allow you to use those tariffs. It doesn’t make sense in my head why they would deny someone with no solar or battery go on these tariff - they could be an edge case and use 90% of their energy through the night and would still benefit from cheap rates.
Good point re. Solar. I think MCS was only required in order to export. I’ll check the T+Ca…
So that it costs you more. Technologies like batteries and solar fundamentally drive down cost and make things better. Electricity suppliers on the other hand want to increase margins, hence they drive up the price via a cartel which I suspect you have in the UK.
Our greatest problem with the cost of energy is the line cost, being three times greater than the energy used. We are trapped. Unless we go 100% of grid, this we can not afford here in N.Z.
Yeah, energy prices in some parts of the world are crazy!
My system defaults to home battery which means that when I charge the home battery and my EV at same time the grid charges my home battery and the home battery charges the car and end up with a flat home battery every morning. I need the grid to charge both the EV and the home battery at the night time cheap rate. Is this possible?
Hi new to your videos and I'm finding them a great source of knowledge. So I might have missed this in the video or in these comments but I've just been reading through the Octopus export terms and conditions. There is quite a focus on the electricity generation equipment you have as in it seems to be more targeted to those with solar setups. Has anyone tried battery only setups with them and what was their response?
I'm just wondering if this is a historical condition with a focus on renewables and if Octopus are going to change this in the future. As you've shown above it can still have a focus on renewables given you can store the wind energy when plentiful at night and then sell it back to them during peak. Also this is exactly what they want as V2G becomes more prevalent with no local generation involved although maybe they want you on a specific tariff for that which they have just released? If there is one thing guaranteed that things will change in this space and trying to do any long term ROI / cost recovery calcs is near on impossible.
Hi Rob, if you're thinking about a battery-only setup with a particular Octopus Energy tariff, might be worth you emailing hello@octopus.energy to see if this would contravene their T&Cs... Agreed, trying to work out ROI over the longer term is not easy! :-)
Don't forget that charging you battery is not free, there is a loss during charging.
This will increase the cost of charging your battery.
You’re right - don’t worry though, the utility takes that into account 👍🏻
earn money off of getting fit, extra incentive, in theory, graft your way out of fuel poverty and potentially create profit, sounds interesting!
Yup
Anyone got an instalation video of a outage back up battery ? No solar, battery installation only for back up and advice please 🙏
Thanks gents
Hopefully, someone will be able to respond on this for you...
Do you know of any interest free options to cover adding a full Solar and battery option? Currently with Octopus and have 2 EV cars.
I haven’t looked into this myself, but perhaps others in the channel know of some options…
Today I had a quote for a Powerwall 2, I was advised that the Powerwall 3 won't offer me any big benefits. Should I wait for the 3 or go with the 2?
Powerwall 2 is fine, the only difference with Powerwall 3 is if you want to add solar it has a built in inverter but for many situations AC coupled battery is best option anyway. Powerwall 3 won’t be available in the UK for quite some time anyway as the inverter and electrical setup here is quite different to the USA.
I can't give you advice, but my next video (out next weekend hopefully) will provide a great case for the PW3, not least because it's LFP chemistry and not NMC (as is the PW2). I feel that LFP is far safer in the home.
The givenergy all in one is LFP and is comparable to the pw3 if you don’t want to wait
@@jameswestgate416 I'd say the AIO is comparable with the PW2, but PW3 is more advanced 👍
@@GaryDoesSolar in that case I look forward to your next video on it
I see on eBay a 20 kWh battery pack for 4k €. Delivered from China. Why are batteries from Tesla, givenergy etc… so expensive? DIY using old battery pack could be as low as 1k €.
I've seen similar products, but those had an enormous shipping cost. But I agree with you: diy second hand is great, I'm collecting, testing, building my own.
If you've got the knowledge and skills to put a large DIY battery together, I say go for it! :-)
I guess my video here is looking at the mass market of people who would like to invest in a ready made battery-only solution.
@@GaryDoesSolar Thanks! As of now I have around 20-21kWh in 18650 cells. I still need to buy more BMS, and haven't decided on the inverter, yet.
Wishing the best for your channel! These videos are very helpful and I always learn something new!
@@Sekir80 Thank you! And I'll keep the videos coming 🙂
That is 1/3 of the price of said battery in Australia!
Hi Gary, I don't quite get the battery's EPS functionality. Is that the capability of the battery? I though the hybrid inverter takes care of that.
There are varying degrees of EPS, which I describe in this video: ruclips.net/video/x83t1iCMXxw/видео.htmlsi=Mx0373iOLj606leG
The EPS I talk about in the video you just watched was the highest level - one that can island the home from the grid and power all the appliances (at least up to the maximum power output of the battery 👍🏻
@@GaryDoesSolar Yes, yes, I've seen this video! But I'm still clueless. The reason is I approach this from low levels (probably too low), and I always think about a battery as only a battery, not a smart device. Or because I'm thinking about a hybrid inverter and EPS level 5 is a given there. I think.
Government should give us tax breaks on them, allowing us to write off the sums again tax. It must be greatly in the countries’ interest to have millions of them.
I have a video coming out shortly on this...
Done some caculations and building my own battery storage to charge at night would pay itself back in less than 3 years, assuming night prices and day prices keep the same relitive price gap
That's a very good payback rate, Harry! And eventually, I'm expecting that kind of payback even for retail home batteries over the next 2-3 years :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar Yeah it's insane how much battries have come down in price.
Will be intresting to see how mass home battery adoption will affect day/night tarrifs
@GaryDoesSolar If I use home battery with octopus intelligent to charge at night and then discharge in the day. Can I sell back to grid using this method (15p export) without any solar panels or do I need to have solar generation before exporting ???
You don't need solar panels to be on Intelligent Octopus Go, so yes.
could you setup jim equipment to charge your battery, say if you lived in a flat and still wanted to cash in on selling back to the grid at peak demand, person power is a renewable isn't it?
Gym equipment? Human power is not likely to generate more than 300-400 watts unfortunately, and even then only for a short time...
Hi Gary you say “set your battery to store energy when it’s at its cheapest” …….but exactly how do you do that ….ive got an App for my GiveEnergy battery but I’m not aware of any control to fill the battery at night.
Hi Chris, if you tap the cog icon at the top right of your app, it'll take you to battery charge settings. Here's a video to how you can program your battery using that screen (15m38s in): ruclips.net/video/DDDd_j8O5s4/видео.html
How often will those batteries will need to be replaced?
Today's home batteries last at least 10 years and can run for maybe 15-20 years depending on how you use them...
I want to run some solar panel + battery dedicated circuit in my house. To power my wifi,security cams a tv and fridge. Im on the fence about lithium batteries. If something goes wrong with charging them they can go up in flames right?
There is a risk with lithium batteries in general - even the one in your mobile phone. But LFP chemistry is the safest variant of lithium battery yet.
@@GaryDoesSolar yeah i have to study up about LFP. This makes me worred about Li Ion.ruclips.net/video/SnKm9-S0_UY/видео.htmlsi=kiasvgSZ2tsG6aFC
What type of inverter for battery only? Can't seem to find brands and models. Any help would be awesome
For PW2 and PW3, for example, the inverter is built in 👍🏻
@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary. I am looking to put in a standalone battery (no connected inverter). I'm happy to look at multiple inverters. I want a no solar solution where I can charge battery from the grid. Use battery for home consumption. Use grid for home consumption. Export battery to grid. All needs to be controlled. Battery I am getting has bms, etc. So looking at inverter/s that suit that set up
@@dubjohnston Definitely worthwhile considering inverters/batteries with API access then, or at least the ability to be controlled by Home Automation. My own battery is GivEnergy which is highly controllable via third party local and remote applications, for example 👍
@@GaryDoesSolar thanks Gary. It's more a cost thing. I can now get batteries (no battery inverter) for $4200 for 17.3kw. So it's markedly cheaper. Can I use a solar only inverter as a battery only in inverter? Then I could use that to export electricity and just use a big charger (like 200a) to charge them up from the grid. The maths on arb opportunities can be added sepelarately to inverter/charger. There is very little on setting these systems up
Is there any point in having solar if you can charge and store at 7.5ppkWhr?
Good question. I’d say it’s certainly worth getting solar if you’re able as it’s essentially free energy after the installation costs are covered.
I still feel the payback periods are too long. Are you prepaying for energy or actually saving, many of these products have a real payback period closer to 15-20 years, as you only save a small amount not the full amount each month. Although I do think time of use metering should be more readily available. Paid export you should not rely on, as some countries now charge you to do this. Green, there is nothing green about a battery, they just use to much carbon to manufacture, and need to be recycled at end of life.
Until the prices come down considerably I don’t think this is a good move for the majority of people. Long term a few SMRs installed by the government would have much more sustainable outcomes.
Thanks for sharing your views. I personally don’t agree with them and don’t currently have the time to debate with you but I welcome debate from others 👍🏻
Have you made a video on Salt battery for back up
Due to weight, sodium batteries will be best for stationary use
Not yet, but will certainly consider when such batteries get traction in the home market 👍🏻
To be realistic, the loss of energy charging the batteries, then converting back to usable energy with an inverter...add in the actual cost of the batteries and inverter.....unless you are charging them off panels....you should avoid the setup.
Having panels alongside a battery is of course better, but as I said in the video, I think a battery-only installation allows those that can't have panels to live sustainably - it's not just about the financial returns...
@@GaryDoesSolar I get the the concept, but in reality with the cost of the batteries and installation, you will not really have any benefits financial or otherwise. To recoup those costs plus the impacts of making/shipping, the few pennies you might make a day just are not worth the time and will not really improve your "Green" lifestyle at all. Without panels, batteries are pretty much a gimmick.
@@GaryDoesSolar A bit of a reality check on that concept is you will lose approx 10% of the power from the battery chemistry, charging losses and inverter losses.
A few pennies a day?? This would cut my costs by just over 2/3rds. After outlaying costs of battery, interverter and installation I would break even in 3.5 -4 years. If I were full solar then its approx 8 years, but again this is a much bigger outlay.
@@SarahStuff-p5u Apologies, I didn't see your response until now. That's precisely why I developed the calculator, so that people can see when they might break even on a battery-only investment. As I said in the video, battery prices might be relatively high at the moment, but they're falling year on year (especially this year with CATL's announcement). Towards the end of the video I demonstrated the benefits with a triangle (environmental, financial and home-backup). Soon, the financial aspect will be up there with the other two.
I run a battery. For this very sad un-reason. Madness it is.
I can't argue with that!
Getting an cheap EV is a gateway drug to to low cost juice.
That might be the route I have to take! 😀
Have you made a calculation to add the money gained from arbitrage over the years? Id does not add up! Asa long as the batteries are expensive the payback time of batteries is 10 years or longer. Better put your money in the bank!
I did better than that - I developed a utility (as mentioned towards the end of the video). I agree that today it might not pay back < 5 years, but with battery prices falling like they are, it won’t be long…
@@GaryDoesSolarI'm on tracker tariff. By the time you take in conversion losses and cost per KWh for the battery. Tracker beats the price of these tariffs when those costs are added
@@GaryDoesSolar
That's kind of what I figured. However, there is another wrinkle worth considering. What if electricity rates change in the future, so that the difference between peak and off peak electricity rates is less than what it is today? The financial case for a home battery would be stronger if it were possible to have some guarantee about the power cost schedules over the lifetime of the battery so you know what the payoff is going to be.
@@allan4787 I think tracker tariffs are great - they allow those who are not in a position to make a heavy investment into renewables, to still reap the benefits. But, they are tracker tariffs, and although, they're look attractive at the moment (I'm currently on Agile myself) they might not always be. Therefore, I think it's folly to make a claim that tracker tariffs win over battery, when they're only been around for a short time and nobody knows the future.
@@allan4787 At the moment, yes - but as I said to your other related comment, tracker tariffs might not always be cheaper, undermining your claim.
The word “sustainable” (and cognates), is a farce when using lithium based batteries
Tell me why…?
@@GaryDoesSolar capacitance drop over time, in lithium based batteries, forcing the user to buy new lithium batteries over time. nevermind the slave labor involved in metals mining, for metals used in lithium based battiers
@@benvastine257 Do you have sources to back up those claims?
@@GaryDoesSolar you’re the one guy who’s never had to replace his cell phone
@@benvastine257 Is that really your argument to back up your claims?? A bit disappointing, I have to say. I'm all for debate in the comments, but I prefer reasoned thought. Home batteries come with guarantees that they will last 10-12 years and people buy on that basis, so no issue about longevity. It is accepted that there will be a drop in capacity over time.
Let's take Tesla EV batteries for example - still averaging 90% capacity after nearly 10 years. My source: www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration
Slave labour is a non-issue these days with the removal of materials like cobalt. Most new lithium batteries today are LFP chemistry.
i have 2 Bluetti b300 3972wh and ac300 after several power cuts no solar was not cheap
👍🏻
What did your system cost , thanks ?
👍
Cheers! 😀👍🏻
Using cosy octopus with storage heaters 6 hours off peak electricity is there better than flux
Sorry, I didn’t understand your statement/question?
So when everyone buys one prices will go up
Can you explain your logic please?
@@GaryDoesSolar price gouging.
@@DavidAKZ In some markets, maybe - but not technology. Technology always gets better and cheaper over time, and in a fast-growing market, there are just too many players who I would argue are happy to take advantage of any market blockers such as companies trying to price gouge.
@@GaryDoesSolarso the UK is not experiencing a cost of living crisis requiring gov intervention in 'the market' then ?
@@DavidAKZ "so the UK is not experiencing a cost of living crisis requiring gov intervention in 'the market' then ?" The inflation rate is based on a "basket" of items and services. Some will have higher rates of inflation whilst some will actually be falling in price. Battery and solar panels have been falling in price due to new products and more efficient manufacturing.
when the batteries hit the marked, the producers stopped giving anything away for free at night 🤣
most companys have monthly cost, and selling your energy from a battery will probbety just cover that montly cost..
after all a battery contains few kw (and we are also dealing with taxes/transport prices)
i would not promice people anything gets much cheaper over time, green energy cost money..
in denmark we have a plan of cutting very little taxes/transport cost over the next 10 years, because of investments into the grid..
and who knows what a war in the middle east can do for example
we allready have prices up to 1 € per kw
and if your battery can spare anything to sell on a day like that, you have a giant battery that is not normal to have..
those prices comes after days without wind or solar
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. Interesting to hear about the policy in Denmark too...
Hi Gary, I was wondering if you have plans to release a video looking into the pros and cons of buying a V2H vehicle rather than home batteries ? I'm thinking of buying 2 x 10kWh SolarEdge batteries but then I spotted a nearly new Nissan Leaf for £16k with a 39kWh battery, twice the size the SolarEdge packs and significantly cheaper and more practical.
Thanks for all your work and great videos
Thanks for your kind words, Nelson - yes, a video on V2H/V2G is on the cards - just a got a few to get out first though... :-)
I don't care about my co2 footprint or the planet... I just care about my energy bills, and that's why I have solar panels.
That's ok - and you're helping the planet anyway. Hope you're getting good savings with your panels.
Are you a UK guy or US guy?
UK
I ran the numbers, 20 years to get my money back on the batteries. Batteries don't last that long. The energy companies will start upping the "economy seven" when more and more people start using it. Air source heat pumps are they way to go, they are cost effective, my first unit paid for itself in less than 3 years. Yes, it saved me over £2,000 in that time compared to my underfloor electric heating.
Hi Chris, yeah - battery prices could do with coming down a little more in order to make the ROI better, but it won't be long. Great to hear about your heat pump experience - I'll be looking into this later this year I reckon... :-)
20 years?? From actual figures I calculated a payback of 3.79 years!
@@hyweljthomas I have a heat pump and paying 10p/kWh or 22p/kWh without battery, it'll pay for itself within 5 years
How long before the government tax this? I have batteries and solar, but can't help thinking that the government will want to screw you and somehow tax this.
I think the whole energy system is changing, and so it'll be interesting to see how taxation might change too. In the UK, it is possible to earn up to £1,000 from a "side-job" and perhaps solar export could come under that?
Its a bit of a shame Flux is so expensive compared to Go. I dont know why EV owners are being treated to better terms than battery owners.
I ask myself the same question. I think it might be because Octopus Energy wants to build sufficient data of EV charging habits etc. so they can present it to the UK government (lobbying for change?) - hence the focus on attracting EV owners. I don't see any reason why Octopus can't do the same for home battery owners too though...
@@GaryDoesSolar Maybe. Or they are happier with less margin on EC charging to grab more market share in this fast growing market. Just home battery installs I expect are small and won't ever be a huge market by themselves.
If I did get a battery only system then getting on cosy looked a better option than flux as you get two charging windows.
If Octopus can still make a profit selling off-peak at 7.5p, then it makes good business sense to attract the highest energy users (EV owners with big 80KW batteries who might also charge outside of discount period to fill their EV). It's not always about the customers' feelings - Octopus is a business and this makes business sense. And, for the record, I agree with their approach to market stratification. They might make a smaller % per KW, but the increase in consumption should mean they make more profit from an EV customer than from a battery-owning user who does an overnight discounted fill then consumes nothing at full rate.
@@beillynoy All very true. It just makes getting a battery only system a very hard sell when you only save 50p a day (based on a 5kWh battery).
@@gavjlewis Agreed
It is not kW it is kWh. We are talking about energy storage capacity, nor the ability to charge / discharge said energy storage device. Anyway , in Australia batteries are way too expensive at $A 1k per kWh.
So forthright,... and yet so wrong.
@@GaryDoesSolar please explain ?
I will explain that "kw" represents the power size, while "kwh" indicates the capacity. That's all.@@DavidAKZ
How interesting that you push your products (home batteries) without any reference to the new legislation on where batteries are not permitted in homes. Are you going to take responsibility when someone’s house burns down from cheap defective products installed on your recommendation. Be responsible and tell people to talk to their insurers!
If that were true, STEVE, then why did I make this video here: ruclips.net/video/uzZ51Xh0PwM/видео.htmlsi=zrI-Lf9RQaSwc852