Buying Home Batteries In Australia In 2024: What You Need To Know
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2024
- Discover the most important considerations when buying home batteries in Australia in 2024. Learn how to buy a solar battery confidently and at the right price.
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
00:39 - How much do batteries cost?
02:03 - Battery savings and payback
04:48 - Are batteries worth it?
06:04 - Battery rebates
07:22 - Batteries and backup
09:06 - Lithium-ion
10:17 - What will batteries look like on your house?
11:54 - Australia's strict battery standards
14:00 - Dodgy salespeople
14:57 - Battery warranties
15:33 - Conclusion
You can read the article version of this guide here:
www.solarquotes.com.au/101-gu...
For the home battery comparison table I mention:
www.solarquotes.com.au/batter...
For the VPP comparison table I mention:
www.solarquotes.com.au/batter...
Watch my Sungrow battery install:
• Are Budget Home Batter...
You can read all my solar and battery 101 guides here:
www.solarquotes.com.au/101-gu...
And to receive quotes from solar and/or battery installers I have personally pre-vetted and trust: www.solarquotes.com.au/quote/
If you have questions after watching the video, feel free to ask in the comments section below - and don't forget to subscribe to this channel :) 
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At last! An Australian specific video for solar batteries! So helpful, many thanks.
And my LG is turned off again for another widespread factory recall due to house fires. Definitely do your market research before choosing a unit.
You're right, I did my research and got BYD, ya should have got a BYD.
@@Ineluki_Myonrashi If I were in the market now I would probably have gone for a BYD. They seem to have a good value for money, which is my language. Unfortunately I bought years ago and realistically the only choices I had were the 6 or 10 LG or the Tesla which was very expensive and on back order for six months.
And LG is one of the more reputable manufacturers which should tell you all you need to know..
I like my house and I don't want to burn my children so I will never install one of those garbage products.Far too many of them pose a fire risk and even the manufacturer acknowledges it.
Given that the price of EV batteries are now around AUD250 per Kwh , why is it that the same batteries used in home batteries are so ridiculously more expensive. I understand the need for a battery management system but they can't be more complicated than in an EV?
Because people will pay it. Suppliers will milk it for as long as they can.
I agree 100% with Trevor 15+ kWh 48v CE approved batteries for around 4K are available and are compatible with good quality hybrid inverters such as Goodwe/Deye that cost no more than 2k for a 6kw throughput which would easily power a standard home. the Bs with battery approvals is just a money grab! and no extra cost gateway Bs is needed as the inverters have inbuilt backup. I say it’s nearly come time to disconnect from the grid!!
Rest
Different applications, different construction, possibly different Gov subsidies, but most importantly supply and demand.
Perhaps you are talking about the battery pack because CATL LFP batteries are a lot cheaper than $250 per kw. For the individual batteries that go in to a power wall I am pretty sure it's well below $100 AUD now, plus sodium is being scaled up at 30% less than LFP. Everyone talks about the price of EVs coming down to be on parity with ICE but simple storage battery prices could easily come down 50%. When supply exceeds demand and new competition comes in this will happen and when it does the grid operators better watch out. The amount of people going off grid would become out of control. Even with todays prices the need to run expensive poles and wires to rural properties has become completely unnecessary .
One of the best informative videos I have seen. Thank you from New Zealand.
thank you, from across the ditch!
This is a very good explanation and review of the available technologies and not leaving out the traps and limitations. Covering all angles. 👍👍👍
Excellent video. Who wouldn't go to this guy to install a battery, when he gives you so much upfront honesty and facts about batteries.
Finn doesn't do installations, He only does blogs, but recommends third party installers (for a kick back)
No! It does not worth it at all!
all this up-front honesty has confirmed the stupidity of wide scale adoption of solar
Mate. You don't get your money back from the batteries. They'll die before that.
@@KRM85 i got my money back in 5 1/2 years, my Tesla power wall 1, is 8 years old & still going, my two LG batteries were also 8 years old & were recently replaced due to a recall, they were working perfectly as well. You see, I don’t throw $30k away if I don’t do my research. For me, it’s an investment (which has paid off), it’s not for everyone & it’s NOT set & forget. I check the forecast everyday to make sure I maximise my savings, im retired & can do that, but a busy family will not have the time to think about their solar/battery, which will obviously effect their payback time.
Seriously awesome video. Thanks. 🙏.
Lots of really useful info in here. Thanks 🙏
No! It does not worth it at all!
Great and very detailed video. Thank you. I like that you mention the use of a bollard in the garage - something that meant a battery wouldn't fit in mine. The problem with using the integrated solar battery for power when the mains is unavailable is that the battery may have already dishcarged from daily use. I was quoted with having the battery provide power to one circuit only for critical devices such as my fridge and freezer. I was also told that once the battery was discharged fully, it wouldn't recharge from the solar until mains power resumed, which meant best case, it would only provide backup power for half a day.
I ended up buying a camping battery for $2k which means I always have a 2kw battery on standby that can power my fridges for 12 hours. I bought some portable solar panels and can charge up the battery during the day in case of a prolonged outage. This means all my rooftop solar goes to covering my normal daily usage - and charging my backup battery. So far I've used the battery twice during blackouts and it enabled me to not only keep the fridges going, but using a powerboard I was able to watch dvds on my tv (no internet during power blackouts) and cook my dinner. If I wish I can also use the battery during high power cost periods to reduce my bill (although I would have to do this daily, and would risk not having backup power if I did this).
I am on a time usage power plan, and until battery prices are halved and aren't a fire risk, I cannot see any advantage in buying one.
In America, Insurance is much more expensive annually for homes with solar on the roof, because they have now included the cost of replacement. Another offset that will need to be estimated.
Question please. Does you 5+ payback period with split tarrifs assume Solar PV ir not ?
I love your no-BS approach to this topic - well done mate
No! It does not worth it at all!
Yeah but there is BS so that's a lie.
In south australia, we've had a Powerwall 2 for two years this august, and already had 10kw of solar. We rarely draw from the grid and have a bill in credit of around $960 as of today. It will pay for itself by this november.
Queensland currently has a rebate of $3,000 to $4,000 depending on income (this will not last long). I just installed a battery because of it, which cost $10,000 before the rebate (I'm told prices have gone up). I have an EV plan, which gives free power from 11am to 2pm, so I get to charge the EV, the battery, heat up the hot water, run the dishwasher, etc... at this time. Power between 4:00pm and 9:00pm (time of use) is very expensive, but I have a battery! Combine this with solar power on the roof (13.2kw) purchased a few years ago. My power bill is finally $0. We have gone from about $1,500 average a quarter to $0. All up it has cost about $16,500 (after all rebates). Worth it? for us, absolutely. If i didn't have an EV, payback may have taken much longer. Of note the battery was expensive, and this component only saves us about $4 to $5 a day on average - or about $1,460 to $1,825 a year (which is a pay off time of 3.8 to 4.7 years). We deplete our 13.6kw batter each night, but we use a lot of electricity. if you do not use a lot of electricity, it will take much longer for it to pay it way. We now even seem to be getting a return on our feed in tariff again - Which I have not added to the payback time, but is about $1 a day despite the poor weather we have been having since the install 2 weeks ago.
Prior to the rebate, much higher feed in tariffs, and the lack of battery competition, it was not worth it. The math did not add up. Now, because of the increase in power costs, huge decrease in feed in tariffs, the rebate, and better deals to be had with batteries, Things have changed. For us, it was finally time to make the purchase.
Ends on the 8 May 24 unfortunately
@@PyjamasBeforeChristhopefully they will run it again. We got our battery the last time they had a program. Subsidy plus interest free loan on the balance.
Our home solar produces an average of 30Kwh per day over a year. Of that, 5Kwh is used in the house during daylight and 5Kwh goes into our solar battery. That leaves 20Kwh to sell. Instead of selling it, it is implied that we could charge an EV. We could if it sits at home all day. That 20Kwh takes 12 hours to produce. And a Hyundai Kona could drive 109 k! No, so you cannot charge a car from solar. An EV has to be charged overnight - from the mains.
You know most people don’t use the full charge of their ev, so most days you are just topping it up. It’s going to be up and down and vary based on how much you drive.
For example a mate of mine is a stay at home software engineer who drives his car locally on the weekends. He absolutely does maintain his vehicle from solar. On the other hand if you commute your vehicle daily then you are going to be hitting the mains.
@@Alan.livingston Yes this is true, just as petrol cars do not need a full tank to drive. In my view an EV should always remain within range of home as that is the only place to charge. A weekend trip from Sydney to Canberra is risky as charging would be an issue.
Can you tell me if I buy another house in South Australia with solar and no battery, If I add a battery to that will I have to join the flexible exports plan and when I changeover his ownership to me will I have to have the flexible exports plan as well thank you in advance
Thoughts on the new Anker Solix X1 batteries?
Are they available in Australia yet?
Trying to find pricing on them is like trying to find a needle in a haystack
This was great, thank you.
No! It does not worth it at all!
excellent information ... thank you.
No! It does not worth it at all!
@@RK.7796 why do you say that?
I built and installed my own 2kw solar/9kw lfp system for 7 grand 4 years ago with zero previous experience, I'd highly recommend it to anyone who can't justify the expense and payback time of bought systems because with sensible use under the right circumstances you could eliminate your power bill entirely creating a realistic payback time. If your fairly handy and motivated and not afraid of side stepping some regulation most people can do it with all the information online and the videos people make explaining everything so well. It is a no brainer when the alternative is getting bent over by our corporate overlords for the rest of your life.
i have a 5.5kw north facing solar system and 10kwh battery in south australia (lots of sun). my bill is no where near eliminated, but it is reduced a great amount. in summer months i only pay the supply charge (sometimes less than that), and in winter i save about 20% via solar, and another 20% thanks to selective grid charging of my batteries - for peak hours usage.
@@simonr23 Obviously how efficient your house is, is a big factor and how many people live there and how motivated they are to use power efficiently.
@@jedics1 6 star house and modern, efficient electronics throughout. Intelligent power use to work within the constraints of variable tariff pricing each day. A lot of automation.
@@simonr23 Something is using a lot of power or a little power all the time for our experiences to be so different. My whole place is 2.5 by 7 meters though, which is probably less than 1/4 your whole house.
yes sidestepping is important i have probably saved 100,000 dollars.
Excellent explanation.
Glad it was helpful!
No! It does not worth it at all!
I got a Powerwall II a few years ago, been working well. Financially, solar panels have a much better ROI, the Powerwall will take a few more years to pay for itself. If your looking to save money on electric bills, I recommend getting as many solar panels you are able to afford, as no matter where you are in Australia, its a sound investment financially, but I wouldnt recommend a battery if your only interested in saving money, as it might take over 10 years for ROI. However, if you also really like the idea of not depending on the grid, or you are having constant issues with grid, then home battery is what you need. I personally recommend the Tesla battery, only because I've heard so many problems about other brands.
Great and informative video
I used solar quotes. Great system. My battery will payback in less than 3 years for a big house in Sydney. Tesla app is really good.
I personally don’t believe batteries are worth the initial cost and accrued interest on the investment, two years ago I installed a 10.5kw solar system no battery Gosford area, previously $150-200/ month on TOU and since installing solar and having the hot water changed to heat during the solar peak we average $50 a month rebate. I do have to keep an eye on the power companies as they are always fiddling with the rates. For me batteries are a waste of time and money, the concern of having my house burnt to the ground is also a big factor. PS I can’t see a small built in fire extinguisher putting out a 10kw battery fire, the problem is the battery chemistry makes its own fuel and oxygen.
Well said. Amazing how these climate change zealots are prepared to spend big and be out of pocket forever, whilst believing they are helping the planet.
Fire brigade standard practice is move away smoother it in a fire blanket to stop it spreading and let it burn out because you can’t stop oxygen getting to batteries once they are on fire. Pretty risky if your no. 1 asset is involved and you’re retired with limited income to replace it. Insurance companies don’t cover much…❤
Great video and website! Would be cool if your battery comparison table included Blackout protection (Battery backup) as a separate feature row instead of being in Pros and Cons.
Why no mention of Zinc Bromide chemistry batteries? The Australian company Redflow sells these for residential homes. They are expensive but don't have any fire risk and do not degrade over time like lithium. In the long run these might work out cheaper? Can you please do more analysis of these batteries and how they compare to lithium?
We know Redflow well. They stopped supplying grid-connect residential many years ago.
@@SolarQuotes Are you sure? I got a quote for a residential redflow battery recently (Perth). Redflow have a battery that is specifically designed for residential installation.
Hi Finn, I have a 6.65kw solar system inc.14 panels on the roof, with a Goodwe inverter. I have been told about fitting a 7.68kw Jinko battery to our system, as we have Jinko panels on the roof. Do you have any thoughts on this battery and fitment please?
Ill jump in and answer this question with over 8 years experience in using and optimising my solar / batteries system. Now, the question is, how many kilowatts do you use on a daily basis??, (usually your energy supplier will have this on your bill), do you have off peak hot water or is it gas?? If you want to have a battery installed, you have to change your inverter to a "hybrid" solar inverter, so the inverter, (the brains of the system), knows when to charge the battery / discharge etc. So, whatever the cost of the battery, you have the added cost of a new hybrid inverter. A good hybrid inverter (with a 10 year warranty) is LGES-5048 SOLAR HYBRID INVERTER. This cost (wholesale price $1,850), retail around $2,500-$3,000, then you need a battery and installation. you could get an LG RESU10 10kWh LV 48V LiFePO4 for around $7k. so a new inverter, battery and installation, your looking at around $10k-$10.5k for a 10 kw battery/inverter/installation. Smaller battery, cheaper price. Also the most important factor is the energy plan your on. If your hws is run on electricity, the you should also have off peak power or dedicated circuit to heat up the hws, BUT, you could also put a switch, near your hws, so your have the option to run it on "continuous" power during a sunny day, so when your battery is full, you flip the hws switch and whalla, your hws is being heated up by your solar system. if there is going to be cloudy days, heat up your hws during the night on dedicated circuit, Also on cloudy day, you could have your batteries charged during the night to have power during the day/evening from your battery and not get charged ridiculous "peak rate", Any questions feel free to ask.
Disturbing to read in SMH that AusGrid intend to penalise people who generate excess solar energy during day UNLESS they have installed a battery.
In WA, we have two (govt) Big Batteries to soak up excess daily solar to put back into the grid in the busy evening period.
I hope AusGrid's dodgy policy will not deter people from installing Solar in the first instance. I would love to get a battery, but a bit out of my range at the moment, but having solar panels has been such a great experience.
Your videos have helped, thanks Finn.
I love my Tesla Powerwall. One thing you don't seem to mention is software/app support for your system. The Tesla app for the Powerwall is fantastic and integrates with any Tesla cars you have. It will even direct any excess solar to your car. I've seen other brand solar apps and they're nowhere near as good.
Agreed. It’s a big reason it wins best battery when we survey our 500 installers every year.
What about flow batteries in comparison?
A good video, however most of it was only applicable to single phase installations. If you have 3-phase power *and* the circuits in your house are split across all phases you can basically forget time of use tariffs because to take advantage of them as you describe you need an AC coupled battery and there are no integrated (like the Powerwall) AC coupled 3-phase batteries in Australia at present. In fact right now there are only two hybrid 3-phase inverters available in Australia. If you want to do a commercial scale system you can use multiple inverters tied together to make a 3-phase AC coupled system (SMA, Victron Energy for example) but for an SME or residential installation that’s not going to fly. I’d be very interested in seeing a video specifically on 3-phase systems in Australia. I think we will see more of them as EVs become more common and as more SMEs with 3-phase start thinking of EVs and battery installs.
If you have three-phase, consider DC coupled systems.
@@nepeansolarsolutions I have a DC coupled system. Thing is neither of the hybrid inverters available here support charging the battery from the grid, only the PV input. You can use a DC coupled system to avoid high grid rates, but you can’t charge from the grid as per the video so if you have 3-phase and no/limited PV time of use rates are of no value. The thing to look for is low daily supply charges so your excess solar has the best chance of negating them.
@@GraemeLeRoux Are you sure about that?
Looking at the Sungrow Hybrid 3-Phase inverter manual e.g. "8.10.9 BatteryForcedChargeTime ... The inverter will take charging power from the grid in the case of PV energy shortage."
Incorrect. I have had a single phase battery on my three phase house for 6 years.
The 3 phase meter nets out the dollars across all the phases: support.solarquotes.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/115001596554-How-does-a-single-phase-inverter-on-a-3-phase-supply-affect-my-self-consumption
Thank you.
We put 6.6kW of panels on the roof in early 2020 and although we now generate 56% of our electric usage (averaged over a 12 month period) our electric bills have actually increases by about 3%. Put a battery in mid 2021. I first started using fluro bulbs in 1992 and have been fairly energy conscious ever since and have had LED bulbs in the house and garage for the last 7 years. What we are really missing is an extra 13.3kWh of roof panels and an additional 20kWh of battery storage.
During summer there are several days where we would be totally self sufficient if we weren't force fed 7% grid power even when there is full solar available and / or electrickery still available for use in the battery. Bloody annoying that.
i have been off grid for 33 yrs, no gas, more panels is always good, i have 180 panels mostly secondhand $30 dollars each, turn fridge and freezer off at night so that we can use aquarium heaters and dehumidifier instead, don't keep meat in fridge, transfer ice in to fridge overnight. i bought 2 pallets of big batteries about 25 yrs ago second hand they are still in reasonable condition because we mostly use whats coming in, the bulk of those panels only bought in last couple of years from a solar panel installer.
can a battery (and possibly also the inverter as well) be installed in the roof space / attic? (steel frame roof vs timber roof)
No Idea, but I doubt it.
You want to keep the battery as cool as possible.
Almost certainly not - I can’t see any way it would meet the installation standards
The grid fails at least 5 times a year for us. It's getting worse each year. Sitting angry in the dark makes batteries look cheap.
There are other backup forms of power that cost a lot less.
Get a standby rechargeable torch.
Hi Finn, thank you for your great video's my question is, over the last 6 month my solar export 6187kwh getting $0.06 NSW for it and my usage was 4286kwh for the 6 months, Im paying $0.34 for anytime usage price. Correct me if I'm wrong, i will be better of with 16kw battery.? Thank you for your time and help.
You’ll save 28c (34-6) per kWh of solar used from your battery. That’s about $1600 per year. That assumes you charge and drain the entire battery every night and it does not degrade over time. So you’ll likely save closer to $1200 per year in reality.
@@SolarQuotes Thank you for replaying, do you think i should get Sungrow 10kW 3P Hybrid Inverter, with Sungrow 16kWh Battery, or Fronius SYMO GEN24 plus 10kw Hybrid inverter with BYD Battery Premium HVM 16.6 kwh. I'm very curious about your opinion. Thank you in Advance
Working out the payback period is tricky, even without considering your opportunity cost and battery life. For a given battery capacity and solar array capacity firstly the array has to have enough excess capacity to fully charge the battery, if not you’re wasting capacity. Then take into account how many cloudy days you want to cover. Then work out for what periods your battery is fully charged and the solar can export to earn extra payback. Then calculate how much it is saving you for each time of day tariff. I ended up downloading 2 years of half hourly data from AGL for my house and making a large spreadsheet which could determine the system situation every half hour. A few years back I felt that battery prices would have to half to make it worthwhile (for me I want payback time to be less than warranty period and with an opportunity cost on my money of 8% (which is long term share market returns)). It will be different now that prices are higher and feed in tariffs are lower, I plan to re-run it.
How hardened are these products what grade of emp can they handle
And what safety features are there for fires and over heating from radiation?
I can only speak for my battery, it's an Alpha ESS 5Kw and I asked the EMP question to the installer who didn't know. Upon completion, whilst charging and discharging there is zero radiation from the battery. Infact, there are more microtesla's coming out of my phone charging cable than the battery. I can't vouch for any other battery than my own. Hope this helps.
@@lukes6868 I think @hydscs is referring to either a nuclear electromagnetic pulse bomb or a Carrington event where a solar flare can induce damaging currents into electrical circuits. My answer is that most, if not all, electronics would be fried depending on the strength of that pulse at that location.
How do you think things like the HOEM device to run selected home circuits from your EV V2L or V2G (when it lands) will affect the viability of home batteries? Granted, the EV must be at home for this to work. Where considerable capital is spent on a large battery on wheels it seems like home owners will want to make the most of that investment.
Hoem is very limited. When cheap V2G inverters appear this will take off.
how is this different if you decide to go off grid in the CBD for example, I use about 5kw a day approx, and have a small 2.3kw solar system getting the premium feed in tariff which will run out this year. So why not get a battery and upgrade the solar and go off grid?
With such small usage that is possible. But bear in mind that - without the grid reliability is everything and you need a backup. This starts to get expensive compared to a grid connect system.
Brilliant
As more people purchase EVs, we have 40-80KW batteries on wheels. Use it to power your home when you’re not driving and the sun is down. Charge it via solar when you can.
That would be perfect. If only the electricity suppliers would allow it. It seems there is only one vineyard in SA. which has faught to do this. Everyone should get together and fight for the right to use or ev's for this
Are you using a Tesla powerwall 2 in you calculations this has a separate inverter, install price will be reduced if you quote on a powerwall 3
We are with Amber electricity. 6.6kW solar and no battery. Amber very recently had massive prolonged price spikes which prompted many customers to leave in droves (including ourselves).
They responded with "capping" the price during spikes to below that of the wholesale market price to keep customers onboard. I have decided to stay and see how it goes.
Our house is fully electric but uses extremely low levels of energy (empty nesters and we rarely use space heating or cooling) so a home storage battery would have a long payback time.
Their "market price" model means sometimes it is better to just switch off your house. I know some big industries that had these market price arrangements and sometimes they just shut down when the price went high. Good if you can do that but a bit fraught if you are a household.And when you figure in all the "energy saving " tech like batteries etc, is it worth it?
Hey, why dont you include Huawei batteries in your comparison charts? Did i make a mistake purchasing them?
Huawei are good batteries, in Australia they are now branded as 'iStore', and supported by SolarGain - who will look after your Huawei batteries too.
The Braveheart VPP analogy was great 😂
Thanks, Ryan. Love your work!
@@SolarQuotes likewise ! 🥰
In Melbourne over the months from April to September my 9.4 kWh system generates less than 13 kWh of power leaving less than 6kWh over my daytime consumption. I would never charge the battery fully over 6 month period.
So to top up would need to come from grid. And the Victorian time of use rates are still way too high. And there is still the retailers supply fee of $1.08 per day so you will always have a bill of some kind and in Victoria the feed in tariff is $0.054c per kWh. So you need to generate anout 60 megawatt hours just to cover that supply bill.
Battery payback longer than 10 years based of my generation profile from 12 months of 2023. I dont have the roof space to add more than say 3 kWh of added pannels and then the ugly appearance affecting the street view of my home.
Fin's fact sheet is realy helpful but you need all the data to assess. That ssems the only weakness in the decision making process.
Informative topic. However, I wish that the prices that I'm getting for batteries are as low as what you've quoted (rough guide, I know).
Most recent quote for a 12kwh battery, increase my 4.5kw array to max of 10kw (that's all that I can fit on the roof) and the changeover tech required in blackouts, was over $20,000,
For me, a retiree, that's a lot of dough and the payback time may or may not be around the 5.3 year mark. But $20k can pay for a hell of a lot of electricity over the next ten or so years, which by then, both battery and PV may be in its way out, just like me.
For a young family, or even recent empty nesters (people under 50), it would be a solid investment, I guess.
If I had my way, all new estates would have community batteries, with all houses mandated to have a battery/solar install subsidised by the developer. All excess power goes to the community battery which can then top up home batteries and serve the larger grid or the local area in the event of emergencies.
YES! I've been saying this for ages!
The installation standard makes it look more like it’s designed to prevent households having batteries. Going by the standard, there is literal nowhere I can legally install one. I imagine it’s the case for many others. Was the standard drafted by the power industry by chance.
Do you live in a greenhouse or similar glass box?
It is rare that we cannot find a suitable location for a battery system to be installed, but also remember that they should never be installed in the direct sun due to the potential overheating.
@@anaestheticsI’m in a 3 bedroom unit. One full side is the adjoining property. Every other side hasn’t got an area large enough to meet the distance from a window requirement. The ridiculous bollard requirement rules out the garage as it would make the garage unusable, it’s not big to start with.
Safety standards exist for a reason - usually because someone died. My house has plenty of suitable locations. I will place my battery (when I eventually get one) in the same garage that my inverters are placed. Bollards won't be an issue because it's a double garage that is not used to house my car. Your specific situation is not indicative of the rest of ours.
$15000 for a 10kw battery installed, no thanks.
Ive seen what installers do, to mitigate the fire risks from Lithium storage.......its a 6mm thick piece of fiber cement, that only provides some shield to a homes wall from the rear of the battery. The rest of the battery is free to discharge flames and set the wall on fire anyway.
Could we have a shorter video to back this one up explaining the pros and cons of buying solar vs solar + battery at the same time up front?
Also beware, in QLD I had a 13.3kw solar installed, I then bought a Tesla battery, great I thought, but in QLD the battery gets added on top of the solar so total 26kw this is not allowed on single phase so I had to get 3 phase power installed $12,000 xtra on top of the $25,000 for the battery & solar, then told I needed a switchboard upgrade and a sub switchboard as well another $18,000, then the system would not work as I needed a 3 phase inverter $4500 installed, the system still did not work and I was told I needed CT clamps another $900, this took 6 months to complete before my system was working, so the total was $60,400 so ask for complete pricing with everything included before you buy.
I am in NZ and have free power from 9 till 12 have no solar would a battery be a good idea?
I mean, that sounds like a no-brainer..
No mention of sodium batteries?
Watch out for rebate offers. I bought my Telsla 2 Powerwall as soon as the $750 rebate was offered. 7 months later and no sign of any rebate. Queries go to their Las Vegas offices, where they lament the immense lack of staff assigned to process rebates.
you bought in Australia and they send you to their Vegas office?
@@SolarQuotesIndirectly, yes. All rebate queries are directed to only email contact with PowerwallNA at tesla.
Sorry to hear that. Is your installer involved? Ours agreed to pay the rebate themselves if there was a problem with Tesla. Which there was not, rebate in the bank in 3 weeks.
@SolarQuotes My apologies if I am repeating myself - my earlier replies haven’t appeared. The Australian Tesla support phone staff direct all rebate queries to e-mail PowerwallSupportNA at Tesla.
This is where everything gets lost.
@Waiting-4-Godot While the installer has been supportive and also contacted various Tesla account and management staff, they have not offered to make this payment - nor would I expect them to at this stage. I am certainly never buying any other Tesla product in future.
[edit: correction to Tesla e-mail address above: PowerwallSupportNA]
I got my rebate within a week or so
I'm on a time of use tariff and payback would be in the 10-11 year range, so I think the 6 years you are portraying is very unlikely. BTW what size system are you using to get the 6 year payback. In winter you get very little solar to charge your battery (in southern Australia states). So what cost to get the super sized solar panel array to be able to fully charge a Tesla each day. I like your video but just think there is a lot you aren't saying for real payback.
I have this concept for my home solar + battery system, that, combined with an all electric car I could save on "fuel" as well - is that the case? Is this commonly done? Does it work or is there some "gotcha" that means you can't charge an electric car from your solar/battery system? Keen to know as I'm sure it's one of those things I'd be promised, but will evaporate when an electrician comes along and says "nope, that won't work because of X...."
You can charge your car from a home battery - no problem - but most people charge their cars either direct from solar, where possible or overnight on a cheap grid tariff. The problem is the car battery is typically 60-70 kWh and one home battery is 10-13kWh, so easy to drain your home battery leaving it empty for the evening peak.
What’s needed for total off grid, I’m paying $1800 per quarter on electricity
With an electric bill of £80 a month. Sinking 20 grand in to a solar and battery system seems like financial suicide. Take that 20k and buy stocks and get free electricity on the returns plus keep the investment. Prices need to come way down as this is not economical in any sense.
What about lithium sulphur batteries? They solved the manufacturing challenges in 2022. Surely we would be seeing some soon?!
I do think it’s worth clarifying that with a time of use plan, it still doesn’t always come out beneficial for a battery.
I’m in the ACT and the price of peak times is still relatively low at 33c kWh, compared to a 10c export tariff. With my current 8kw panels, for much of the year I’m only drawing 3-5 kwhs from the grid per day. The battery savings from that just don’t exist…yet.
Should the peak prices hit 50c or so per kWh, like they have in various other states, then the value proposition dramatically improves.
My annual electricity bill is around $400 per year currently, and I’ve modelled a battery (of various sizes) with my usage data over the last few years. The best a battery can do is save about $200-$300 per year. Therefore never paying itself off (at least with the current prices).
I haven’t looked at modelling some of those alternative plans you mentioned, so maybe it could be worth it there.
Good point. ACT has phenomenally good grid tariffs compared to the rest of Australia.
A family member recently installed a Tesla battery to an existing pv solar panel system. The cost was $16,000.
If there wasn't any extra work involved in the installation (eg major switchboard modifications) then it sounds like the installer ripped them off.
Wait.. by the time you’ve made the savings, you’ll need a new battery.. right?
IMHO…. initially solar was great, my bills went from over $450 down to $50 until the power companies Reduce your feedin tariffs now I’m paying about what I paid before I had solar!?!?batteries Don’t last long So you have to buy new ones before you’ve even paid off the initial ones. 😮😢
It's easy to be angry at the power companies, but that is likely misplaced. The tariff goes down due to every man and his dog doing the same thing, trying to sell power at the exact same time when it's sunny.
When we all have batteries, they’ll just boost the daily supply charge even more. About half of my current bill is just supply charges.
My yearly electricity cost has halved since installing panels 4 years ago. Simply because I don’t pay for electricity when the sun is up. Definitely worth it in Perth, even if cost is your only consideration.
Ok so Telsa Battery supply and instal (your number = $15K. Maximum deployable power = 10kW/day. @$0.42/kW that is (at best $4.20 per day.) less the $0.05 that you would have got from a feed in tarrif that makes it 10 x (0.42-0.06) = $3.60 per day. $15000/3.6= 4166 days or 11.41 years. So in just under 12 years you can get your $15K back, no profit, no savings and the battery is out of warranty. However............if you had invested the $15K in a term deposit @ 4%p.a. compounded, for that 12 years, you would have $24K. He just made over $9K from you.
I live in the NSW southern tablelands and after doing an extremely detailed modelling of my own proposed solar plus battery system (much more detailed than the SolarQuotes calculator and using actual hour by hour usage data over a full year), the best average annual return I could get was about 6% after twenty years and all of that came well towards the end. That return could easily be wiped out by increased insurance premiums, a malfunction that required repairs, or even scheduled maintenance and inspections. No combination made a positive return for the first ten years.
Even that small return is very optimistic, being dependent on the price of batteries dropping drastically over the period. That is, building up the battery capacity through the period as prices dropped because buying it all up front was a guaranteed loss even over twenty years (replacing batteries and other components as they reached EOL).
Yes - that’s a standard tariff so as the video says the payback is Meh. On a ToU payback is higher because peak is higher and you can charge cheaply at night for the morning peak. So for high energy users in ToU payback can be twice as good.
Battery prices are still going down right?
Yes. Battery cell prices are, but takes some time for this to flow through to the packaged home batteries.
Can someone explain to me why a 10kwh battery costs at least $10k while I can buy a BYD Atto3 with a 60 kwh battery for $50k? This implies the rest of the car is worth a negative number?????
A home battery works harder. It can be fully charged and drained more than once per day. So there’s higher warranty liability. Also the packaging and onboard electronics are expensive. Then there’s the customer support and complex app and API to maintain. As the market gets more mature prices should come down.
Sodium ion batteries come close. Not quite as energy dense. However they are cheaper to make and a larger capacity battery can be had for a similar cost.
Can you point us to any commercially available and approved for grid-connection in Australia?
Fully charged and discharged each and every day and it will pay for itself in 9 years. So no cloudy days and god forgive if it is rain. Then you better not use the power during these less then ideal days as you won't have an excess to charge your battery.
I've had a 10Kw solar system on my home since the solar scheme was introduced. I've monitored the production and export since day one. My system is due north and no shade during the day and I work out that with my current rate for electricity and taking into account the day that are not ideal, it will take me 16 years and 3 months to pay for the battery.
If I take into account that money as a lump payment against my mortgage. The saving on interest payments covers my electricity bill and some. I also don't end up with a dead battery that needs to be replaced.
Great idea in theory but in my case I average about $60 a month in grid use vs a Tesla Powerwall "from $247 a month for 60 months"
Not working for me! Spending big to save little.
I have gone for a second South facing 6.6 kW system so my total cost for both systems is $11k which should have a payback of 7- 8 years and still have a couple of years before I have to worry about replacing inverters etc. vs the vague lifetime of a battery.
Virtual batteries mean the utility gets to flog your battery like a renter in a sports car and when you need it there is nothing left for you.
Also avoids the lovely pyrotechnic proclivities of the Lithium Ion batteries bolted to your house or even in the garage.
I would be happy with a flow battery solution but companies like Redflow seems more focused on larger scale solutions unfortunately despite them doinf some home systems previously.
Good idea but not there yet IMHO
What you need to know… You’re strapping something to your house that could potentially fail and destroy your house. The cost of the battery will never be recovered before it needs to be replaced. You also must pay for regular inspections which means electrician visits who will cost at least a couple months of electricity…
You are very risk averse. Nothing wrong with that. I hope you don’t have one of those flammable gas connections to your house (carbon monoxide kills thousands every year even when it doesn’t explode). Or one of those flammable petrol or diesel cars in your driveway because about 1 in 1000 catch fire.
@@SolarQuotes You can also proactively extinguish a fire from combustible liquids or gas. A lithium battery fire cannot be extinguished until it burns itself out… Last time I looked, all fire departments advise never to leave a device charging unattended yet somehow a massive wall mounted battery pack or EV is exempt from that. Likewise there have been an insane amount of recalls for said batteries and that includes reputable manufacturers.
@@SolarQuotes Such flammable fuels pose less fire risk and are extinguishable, unlike lithium batteries which can spontaneously fail with devastating consequences.
Swapping to a TOU doesn't actually improve the breakeven time. Its only reducing it because the relative cost of the TOU is higher than a flat rate tariff. Its not an apples to apples comparison.
I dont get why TOU plans decrease the payback, would you care to explain
Yeah that puzzled me a little.
Are they assuming you save on buying the extremely expensive peak rate electricity? Which doesnt make sense, because if you needed power at that time you wouldn't choose a TOU tariff.
Or are they assuming you charge the battery on the cheap off peak? But havent you already bought the massive solar array before you bought the battery? So that assumption doesnt make sense either.
Flat tariffs are say 25c all day. Let's say TOU is 17c during the days and 35c from 3pm to 9pm. It's the evening spike when you use most energy and where you have a full battery, ideally charged by solar but if there isn't enough you top up the battery at 17c and then use it during the evening peak.
@@hags568those were the cheapest rates about 12 to 18 months ago. You can add at least 10c to each of those today.
Good feedback - thank you. We'll explain this better next time. Generally it's not worth choosing to be on a ToU if you are currently on a good standard rate - but many people are being forced onto ToU tariffs, and this is where batteries can start to make sense financially.
more details here: www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/payback/
Are there other brands to choose from? Why just Tesla
Didn’t see Sonnen on your trusted brand list?
That’s deliberate
@@SolarQuotes why is that. Extremely curious to know
I remember being told by SolarEdge that their battery doesn't have a built-in fire-extinguisher anymore.
The iStore Battery does though.
Interesting - just checked the SE battery's latest data sheet and it lists the fire extinguisher as 'optional'.
If you put a battery in, disconnect the mains power so it won't suck the guts out the battery
NO, do the math, the return on investment is like 17 years on a PW. You can only save the difference of about 10kwh per day (don't food yourself you will get the 12.5 of a PW over its life, 3 years on, I get 10.5 at most, consider this, it is May in Melb, by PW has been flat since about 9pm, 13.5kw cells on 10kw inverters). 10.5kw at the difference between your usage cost - your feed in tariff. Maybe 16c/kwh. Here in Melb, thats $1.60 a day saved (if you are paying more, you need to shop around a lot more!). Divide $10,000 by 1.6 = 6250 days to break even. Divide by 365 = 17.12 years.
By a battery for the protection of power outages, NOT for the financial benefit. I compared all those time of use plans, they still don't work out. They charge so much in peak periods when your battery still can't provide cover like early morning you get burnt.
As for VPPs, Tesla quoted over 30c/kwh usage to sign into their VPP. What the actual F?
Correct as we have always said battery payback can be terrible or it can be reasonable depending on your circumstances. Not everyone lives in Melbourne. Hard to fathom for many Melburnians I know. But I promise it’s true.
@@SolarQuotes But my math above is actually for anywhere you get sun all day, generally you only get to discharge your battery once a day. That's why my math is still really best case in most cases. I know in Melbs I get less sun than say QLD, but my PW was still fully charged today by 2pm, its not all rain and clouds down here either. The more the difference between FIT & rates increases, the lower the ROI, term but its all still far beyond smart. Don't forget that $10K (what I paid with rebates) now is more like $12-15K in 10 years time, $15k upfront is crazy expensive and will be like $18-20K in 10 years money so inflation on your purchase price makes ROI even longer. Batteries need to be 3x the capacity and 1/3 the cost. When it gets there it will be a no brainer. 20kw and $7K is still a maybe. The best option for those who's cars are at home is if we can just use our cars battery. That's a 70kwh battery just sitting there. It won't suite everyone, but it would suite a lot of people, especially with so much work from home going on now.
I think these schemes and regulations that stop DIY battery installs is bogus and designed to prop up an industry that is holding us to ransom and is holding back battery adoption. I have a 14.4kWh LFP battery (all up cost $3k) that I am prohibited from connecting to my Inverter even though I am more than qualified technically - no, you have to be a "qualified solar installer" to install two low voltage cables, a comms cable and do some minor, brainless inverter configurations. All this created by regulatory BS pushed by greedy energy companies. It all stinks.
In the USA you can rent them but not in out corporate first Australian
You say diy is a no go in Australia intimating that it is illegal or some such thing. This might be a bit misleading as it is not the case. Quality diy builds are being done all the time with quality cells and bms etc. diy is less than half price
Not grid connected.
Does it save you money when it burns your house down?
The problem is specific energy. Batteries by their very nature are not efficient at storing energy which is why they are so expensive. The system of intermittent renewables that Australia is investing in is driving up the consumer costs of electricity and the more we build the more expensive it gets.
Specific energy of the best battery Tesla has produced is 0.57 MJ per kg. CATL has just prototyped a 0.73 MJ per kg battery.
In comparison to the energy available in other media this is pathetic.
Petrol is 40 MJ per kg
Diesel is 42 MJ per kg
Black coal is 60 MJ per kg
Hydrogen is 141 MJ per kg
The clincher for efficiency and thus lower consumer electricity prices?
Uranium: 330,000,000 MJ per kg.
That is the actual answer to cheap consumer electricity with zero emissions and a reliable grid that has high capacity factors.
Batteries are a fool’s errand and rooftop solar creates a negative feedback loop that forces energy companies to drive their prices ever higher.
You think you can generate electricity at home more efficiently and cost effectively than a large power station? You are wrong. The delta T of your electrons matters, which is why thermal generators will alway be more efficient and thus produce cheaper costs per kWh.
With solar and batteries all you are doing is paying for your electricity up front while making yourself responsible for your own generation and the maintenance and eventual disposal and replacement of your system.
The answer is nuclear energy and it always has been. The physics and engineering don’t lie.
LOL someone’s been reading Vac Smil. Vac’s great at history, but can’t comprehend the future ( or the present now that it’s arrived). My house generates firmed kWhs cheaper than the Nuclear Power Station I used to work at. (I’m a big fan of nukes but not for Australia)
@@SolarQuotes
Firmed kWh? Lol… so you have your backup generation as well then.
You can’t fight physics. Batteries suck and small scale solar and battery systems do not produce cheap kwh. By the time you pre pay for all the installation and equipment there is no way you produced electricity more cheaply than industrial scale thermal generators. Physics.
I have never heard of whom you referenced but i do know physics and engineering and batteries and low energy density will never be capable of running an industrial economy or providing cheap electricity to consumers. Why? It’s not a technology problem it’s a physics problem.
You can use solar and batteries all you want, it’s a choice, but don’t suggest it’s somehow cheaper per kWh than industrial thermal power generators which is simply not the case.
Nuclear is the most efficient and and after coal, is the cheapest per kWh to generate electricity. It’s also more environmentally friendly than the millions of batteries that would be required to store even a fraction of the energy we require.
Batteries can be part of the future but it will all be enabled by baseload generators. If it’s not going to be coal then it will be nuclear.
Nuclear is the future of energy and it always has been: the technical argument for it are a lay down mesere’ .
Solar and batteries are for niche power generation only, in areas where is it not possible to build of get baseload generation.
They are too inefficient and too expensive and do not scale well.
@@SolarQuotes
Vaclav Smil certainly has some interesting books. Thanks for pointing him out.
Again physics don’t lie and you can’t change them. Batteries are not the future of energy. Energy density is the key to efficiency and batteries don’t have any.
Plus they all need to be manufactured and that is resource intensive and all made in China…
@@SolarQuotes "I’m a big fan of nukes but not for Australia"
Why not?
We have an unlimited supply of uranium
We don't have Earthquakes or Tsunami's
We have massive empty deserts where we could bury the waste
Australia seems to be the best place on the planet for nuclear power!
I’m waiting for VTG electric car
Still almost no options for the millions (and growing) of unit and apartment - or lets call them more generally - body corporate properties around the country.
agreed - but they are coming - EcoFlow does a plug and play grid connect battery in the USA, which looks promising for this application - but will require Aussie battery standards to be more forgiving.
The challenge is getting permission to install and also the impact on common property from an insurance perspective. If insurance increases as a result of some owners having batteries then you can imagine owners without them objecting to paying more for insurance. So sadly I think body corporates are going to lag behind on this tech.
Good advice. Buyer beware
The issue with batteries is the exorbitant installation costs.
Expect a battery installation to start at $1,500. You are paying for at least 2 trades people including at least one battery-qualified sparky for a day, all the consumables (cables, breakers etc,), insurance, company overheads, and - for good companies - a sum set aside so they can provide ongoing support for the 10 years of warranty.
@@SolarQuotes and in some cases, it’s literally plug and play. Markups on equipment is also an issue.
@@69memnon69 plug and play?? Who told you that?
The maths is totally wrong if not misleading.............touting unrealistic savings and where is the battery calculator on your site.
www.solarquotes.com.au/solar-calculator/
www.solarquotes.com.au/battery-storage/payback/
Be careful of the installer configuring your battery to sell back rather than self consumption. Not only will it cost you money but also prematurely wear your expensive battery.
who are you fooling buying a battery is a false economy for the tesla its around $14k to install so let say your annual electric bills are $800 to $1200 its going to take between 15 and 18 years before you see a return on the investment as you have paid for the electricity upfront to start, and dont forget you will need to replace it in around 10 to 12 years. not a good investment at all.
further to this the current wholesale cost for electricity is around $35 per MEGA watt (that's 1000 kilowatts) that's a mere 3.5 cents per kilowatts so you need to ask who's being ripped off by the electricity retailer when the charge a whopping 50+ cents per kilowatt and a further $1.30 odd for a daily supply charge!!!!!!!! Electricity should be way cheaper than it is.
I like the ad on tv asking people to check the serial numbers due to fire risk. I have wondered if there is a penalty on the house insurance due to lithium fires.
I don't have batteries or solar. My back up is a Honda generator.
Interet free loan for batteries is only over 4 years, and is way higher than the payment you'd be making for power, or on a longer term loan... Just a gimmick
So he talks about how power is dependent on it's physical arrangement and not it's financial market and then he talks about how it's dependent on the financial market. He talks about how power supply steadiness is dependent on the inertia in spinning machinery but doesn't mention how batteries can respond in fractions of a second to changes in need. He says it's a myth that wind and solar are free except wind and sunlight ARE free. It's the machinery that harnesses them and the means of connecting them to the grid that aren't free. Wind and solar are as free as the rain that eventually collects behind dams to run generators. Are dams and generators free? Are the plants that burn fossil fuel that is most definitely NOT free also free? He talks about how power bills have risen and seems to put that on wind, solar and batteries but solar has dropped 90% in cost over the past decade, wind 60% and batteries over 80%. How is that increasing electricity costs. Could it be some other factor? He's referenced a lot of detail in his talk but hasn't gone into it.
Do the math, by the time you get your money back, you need to replace the system
it appears a few $ may have changed hands for this
Nope.
Some one explain to this guy what an X Y axis graph is for
I note you didn’t factor in the incidence of batteries spontaneously combusting and burning down the family home/garage.
And what is that incidence exactly, Alan?
Perhaps the ACCC public warning re LG home batteries,the Tesla big bank fire in Victoria last year and other fires in Sth Australia and NSW. Come on, be fair dinkum if you’re going to push this stuff.
if CLP wins next election, its 12k rebate :) but everything cost more up here
Plus our power rate is pretty flat, no real savings even over 15 years
I researched batteries for home a few years ago and was told they do not protect from grid outages. I was told it is illegal to run solar and/or battery when the grid is down as the power can back feed into the grid while sparkies are working to rectify the outage issue.
It's ok as long as the system can island (isolate) itself from the grid :)