"Dead Man's Party" Buffy Reaction! S3E2
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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I'm bogged down with homework right now so I have to put off on replying for another time, but I just wanted to say that I am SO RELIEVED that others feel the same way I did about the Come-to-Jesus moment everyone had on Buffy in the living room. I was braced for criticism in the comments, haha. I felt everyone was being an asshole, not trying to offer an ounce of understanding or compassion towards Buffy. I was willing to give Willow some slack because she is also a teenage girl dealing with hurt and life changes, and she just really wanted to have her friend there, but I went right back to mad when she threw her under the bus right after the fact. And Xander... oh boy, Xander, thank your lucky stars you're fictional and a teenager because I wanted to sweep his leg out from under him, with a good flick on the forehead for emphasis.
Joyce, however... Joyce has a date with my fists in a Denny's parking lot.
Nah I think the majority of us is with you on this. Then there are an IMHO, strange, minority of people that always have to make comment on how they was on Buffy:s side when they where teenagers but now that they have grown up they are on the Scooby gangs side. Too me that only tells that they simply identify with the person that is close to them and not with the facts being presented, aka age biased opinions.
It's fucking wild that Joyce said she made a bad parenting choice like Buffy was supposed to know that, and... I guess ignore what she said?
I have a long theory with this episode, that is in part, tied into a _Becoming_ theory (which is interesting as I just got done watching a _Becoming_ reaction):
Giles is a likeable character in this episode. I struggle with all other characters to some degree.
I would and do understand that there are consequences to Buffy running away. I love that she understands that as well. I love that she accepts punishment upon her return. It's what makes her the second best character of the episode behind Giles. What bothers me is how The Scooby Gang and Joyce aren't willing to care what Buffy's reasons for leaving may have been. No one, except Giles, seems happy to see her. They make Buffy leaving all about themselves. None of them bother to try and understand why Buffy left in the first place. Nor did they think about how hard slaying was on Buffy when they were going through it/while Buffy was gone.
I've seen people defend Joyce against kicking Buffy out of the house by saying phrases along the lines of she didn't mean it. While I think it is weak on excuses to begin with, it becomes null and void with Joyce saying in this episode, it was better when Buffy was gone. Buffy repacking to leave again makes sense after overhearing that.
Willow can be as upset as she wants at seeing Buffy repack, but she was the one who ignored Buffy's lunch date out of anger. Who's to say Buffy wouldn't've told her everything at said lunch date. So, being upset with her for not saying anything to her is not understandable if she's ignoring Buffy out of anger. It's only going to make Buffy think she's wasn't wanted. Especially with Xander's phrase still in her head of "Willow said kick his ass." Buffy misconstrued those words into thinking Willow no longer wishes to talk about her Angel troubles and Willow having issues with Buffy running away is only enforcing Buffy belief, thus making Xander feel in the clear over being the problem just by saying, "*Willow* said kick his ass."
The numbers below are the progress Buffy made, and my opinion, on why Xander should have trusted Buffy being able to kill Angelus:
1. In _Innocence_ she tells Angelus, "Give me time."
2. In _Phases,_ dealing with Oz's werewolf issue allows Buffy to start the "time" above mentioned to Angelus. She is no where near ready yet, as Angelus "sends his love" with a vampire in the form of a classmate and Buffy freezes. But, she is started down the path by not thinking constently of him.
3. In _Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered,_ Xander's issues allow Buffy more of a break from Angelus' Valentine's Day plans. Buffy also starts to read up on Angelus' past.
4. In _Passion,_ Xander says he deserves something for telling his friends he told them so before Angelus showed up. This shows Xander using Angelus as an excuse for his Angel jealousy, and in claiming he is correct about Angel being at fault for Angelus' actions. He is blinded to the fact that Buffy has come another step closer to being able to deal with Angelus. Instead, he feels justified in Giles thinking Giles "getting himself killed" being a good thing, not realizing, in anger over Jenny's death (anger that becomes meaningless in _Becoming Part 1_ when he says "Yeah well she's dead), the fact that Giles will die if Buffy isn't ready to confront Angelus herself.
5. In _Killed by Death,_ Xander witnesses Buffy hunting for Angelus while sick. Doing so while sick wasn't a good idea, but it showed the determination proving another step closer to dealing with him.
6. In _I Only Have Eyes For You,_ Buffy releases everything holding her back by dealing with her guilt over turning Angel into Angelus. The biggest step she's made in dealing with him.
7. In _Go Fish,_ Buffy takes Angelus on, and only doesn't kill him because Angelus throws Gage at her. Xander doesn't see this one, but it shows she is ready and willing before Xander says, "Willow said kick his ass."
8. In _Becoming Part One,_ Xander has issue with Jenny Calendar having come close to restoring Angel's soul and everyone (not just Buffy) deciding to try re-ensoulment before attempting to kill Angelus. He shows his opinion negatively (as opposed to Kendra who expresses the exact same opinion healthily). He had listened to Buffy say she was "done waiting" and therefore reacts badly to their safer idea over trying his taking on an evil vampire to kill him plan. No one with either opinion could have known what the outcome would be.
9. In _Becoming Part 2,_ Buffy is ready. She isn't aware the spell is being recast after it was interrupted, because of Xander. But after all eight above things happen, Xander still doesn't trust her. That distrust is another one of my issues against Xander. Misplaced distrust, as over nine episodes she has moved from the headspace Xander thinks Buffy to be in to Buffy not actually being in that headspace at all. Not to mention Buffy was a second from decapitation when Angel's soul was restored, so Xander was wrong to think Buffy wouldn't/couldn't kill him.
As a secondary side note, all decisions lead to different outcomes. So, the idea that Xander telling Buffy the truth wouldn't have changed anything is just mathmatically immpossible. I believe with the informtion Xander was supposed to tell her, instead of, "Willow said kick his ass," Buffy would have done something along the lines of ignore the banter, and instead, surprise Angelus by dropping down unexpectedly from the roof, or through a hole in the wall to keep her body between Angel and Acathla. All minions would have come to Buffy and she could have still been between Angelus and Acathla instead of fighting said minions in the corner when Angelus got up after Spike hit him and walked over to casualy pull the sword out. Buffy knowing it was all about the truth Willow told Xander to explain, instead of the lie, could have changed a lot.
Xander is really saying, "Willow said kick his ass," out of jealousy (and being a species-ist) all while limiting information to Buffy, who was about to go to the front lines of battle. Even if you don't know the outcome of the battle, not telling someone part of the plan for battle is a bad idea. We don't know what the outcome would have been if Xander had told Buffy the truth, but we do know going into battle without all the information can hurt, and in _Becoming Part 2,_ it doesn't make sense to say Xander's lie didn't have consequences on the battle any more than to say it wouldn't have mattered to tell him the truth. Xander helped create the reasons Buffy felt she had in running away. So, he had no reasons for yelling at her in this episode. I just wish Buffy and Willow knew they had reasons for being angry at him.
Buffy tried talking to her mom and her friends. It made it all the more sad when they threw a party just so they could purposely ignore her. Buffy lost everything in _Becoming Part 2:_ School, boyfriend, family, enemy turned ally turned enemy aka Spike, and her friends. Xander made Buffy believe Willow was just as against Angel as he was, by saying "Willow said kick his ass," and yells at her for the outcome. Joyce kicked her out of the house and yells at her for the outcome. Buffy knew Oz would just silently side with Willow as he is shown doing in this episode as well as previous episodes. Cordelia and Buffy don't have a friendship. She is just dating Xander. Giles comes off as the only character to show he missed or cares about Buffy. And he spends the entire episode gathering exposition of a mask. Buffy feels just as alone as she did before she ran away only it is worse because she considers Cordelia's line from S1 _The Invisible Girl/Out of Mind, Out of Sight,_ wrong. Buffy doesn't believe loneliness is better when surrounded by others. Not when those surrounding Buffy are genuine friends and family pushing her to want to runaway again and yelling at her over it because they refuse to listen to why she did to begin with.
I'm not comparing Buffy to a dog as I say this, but it is a good example: Owners are taught not to punish their pets when they run away and then return, because the dog will think they're being punished for coming back. It's the same with humans. It will feel good to unload your anger, frustration, anxiety on the runaway, but it will also make the person want to split again, as Buffy attempted to do. Buffy has just as much right to be angry at them. She just doesn't realize it because she being treated as a kicked puppy. It was good for Buffy to be away from them for a while. And she did leave a goodbye note to her mother, so I don't hold a grudge against her for not saying anything. Considering Xander's lie made her think her friends wouldn't care to listen, and what all the other friends and families reactions were, the note was the best course of action for a goodbye.
Oz's description of hootenanny - chock full of hoot, just a little bit of nanny - was perfect! I thought you were going to fall out of your seat!
They were really awful turning a nice friendly dinner into a massive party...
I love Oz’s explanation of party types. And so so so much love that they actually have the conversations they need to, even though they were passive aggressive as fuck the entire time.
One of my favorite things about season 3, broadly, is that it really digs into some of the emotional stuff. It does it very casually, but efficiently. This season is flawless to me. The filler episodes fill early and swiftly and don’t drag things out the way season 2 did. Season 1 was a short season, but it was also trying to find its footing. I’m soooo excited to see how you receive this season.
With an episode like Dead Man's Party you can see how this show keeps developing looking into the psychological scars that everyone now has. Of course we have Buffy who now almost feels like an outsider after returning, the rest of the gang are still hurt by Buffy's disappearance and are finding it hard coming to to terms with her return. The part where Joyce confronts her in front of all her friends at the party is hard to watch, as many people may have been in a similar situation witnessing something they would rather not see, and that cringing embarrassment that comes with it. The confrontation with Xander is also painful to watch. All's well in the end after the Mask is defeated, but the scars are now there even though covered up for now. Giles threatening Snyder with his Ripper side is a great scene at the end. Great to see Willow and Buffy at the end trading child like insults as only real friends can do to each other.
Before she left, Buffy had to kill the love of her young life--and he was her love at that point, not the monster who had taken his place. Her mother had given her an ultimatum--don't come back (or let the world be sucked into hell). No way Xander would have been understanding and the last word she had from Willow was "kick his ass" (Xander was lying, but Buffy didn't know that) so no understanding to be expected there.
Maybe she could have gone to Giles, but with her mother's and her friends' betrayal (as it would seem with the information she had), that would be a thin reed indeed to cling to.
Then Willow bails on meeting with her. She overhears her mother saying having her back is worse, while a party of strangers with everyone ignoring her goes on around her.
Is it any wonder she was packing up again? Willow might call it giving up. I'd say more not staying where she wasn't wanted. Again, given the information she had to work with.
And Xander? At least Willow was trying to understand, at least before she got to "let them fight". He was all full of self righteousness and blame. Not a hint of concern for Buffy and how she was affected by any of this (and he's done that before).
I'll say this for Oz, though. At least he didn't join in the dog pile on Buffy.
The scoobies did not cover themselves in glory here.
100%
The only real bright spot of the episode is Giles. Though Cordelia tries, in her own Cordelia way 😅
Everyone is caught up in their own pain, and, now that Buffy's back, they forget about hers.
I'm not surprised that you're so much more understanding of everyone in this episode. You're a better person than I am.
I hate everyone in this episode, with the exception of Giles, Cordela and Oz. Willow lays this guilt trip at Buffy's feet ("You were my best friend. I didn't have anyone to talk about this.") but shows zero curiosity about what might have made Buffy act that way. Buffy actually didn't have anyone to talk to about anything. Willow was surrounded by people. Fair enough if she didn't feel like it was the same, but... gah. And don't even get me started on Xander. Who died and made him Buffy's dad? Whatever Joyce went through is for her to tell Buffy, not Xander to bring up in front of the crowd of strangers he invited to trash Buffy's house just so he could get away with not talking to her.
You know what? You don't deserve my annoyance at all these people. lol
Giles is awesome. Giles is everything that is right the world and I love him. He can stay.
Full agreement. Regardless of how justified your feelings are, ganging up on a person like that is not ok. Also interesting that Joyce can excuse her being the catalyst behind Buffy running away with "Mom's not perfect, okay?" but for Buffy there exists no excuses apparently.
@@Henrik_Holst I agree the Scooby gang has no right to jump on Buffy, they know the sitch. But Joyce does.
Joyce had to move to Sunnydale after Buffy burned her gym down. She has been going out at all hours with an unstable older boyfriend. Then at the end of last season S2E21 Buffy is charged with the murder of Kendra and expelled from school. Next S2E22 she finds Buffy is hanging with Spike, an apparent PCP addict who almost killed her in S2E3. Joyce watches Buffy apparently kill a person on her front porch. The "person" had a strange face, and turned to dust, but from her point of view isn't it murder? Then Buffy and Spike discussed murdering her ex-boyfriend Angel in front of Joyce. And Buffy ran away to LA. After all this I think Joyce has a right to be a little angry at her.
@@seanmcmurphy4744 I never said that any of them didn't have a reason to be upset with Buffy (as would she have a reason to be upset with them), I said that it was wrong to _gang_ up on her as a group. The only reason to do it that way is to embarrass the sole person and make them unable to actively defend their position.
That said, no Joyce have no real right to be angry with Buffy for doing what Joyce told her to. Remember that this is an adult parent telling their kid that they are not allowed to come home and then gets angry when said kid doesn't comes home.
To which some people argue that she didn't really mean it, but those people should re-watch that scene again and clock the number of seconds that Buffy gives Joyce to say that she didn't mean it or the fact that Joyce doesn't run after Buffy yelling "stop I didn't mean it!".
@@seanmcmurphy4744I could answer some of that, but it would involve spoilers so... biting my tongue.
I find the argument scene pretty hard to watch on one hand, and well acted on the other. Joyce's line "And I've had schnapps!" in the conflict makes me laugh every time I hear it.
Episode 3 is indeed a big, fun step up, even though I can find a lot to like in these first two :)
You cut out the guy by the dip! He's the most important character in the entire series!
I even thought about it!!! I was like "It's Larry, I gotta leave in Larry," but then YT made me shave a couple minutes off and I had to make some tough choices. 😭😆
@@TheRiskPig HIS NAME IS JONATHAN YOU UNFEELING MONSTER D:
OH MY GOD DID I JUST CALL HIM LARRY??????? *looks for a tall bridge*
You people!!! We all know HARMONY is the most important character in the whole series!!! And why wasn't she invited?!? 😂
Tough episode. The spouse is correct - after the first 2 episodes, season 3 starts to rock. 😉
"We're doing Pet Sematary?" Best comment ever!
Your response of "Colonizer" to Giles "American" comment cracked me up!
The way he says the line makes me laugh, but at the same time, I always want to ask when he last checked out the contents of the British Museum, and remind him of the Victorian English fad of eating Egyptian Mummies!
I do forgive him though, because he and Buffy are the only ones I don't have the desire to smack upside the head in this episode - and I'm not generally prone to violence.
Happy Halloween, great episode, why in hell didn’t they kick all the people out of the house when the gang was yelling at Buffy, not sure where the noisy neighbor fit in but anyway it all ended well
I love watching you love Oz. Warms the heart.
I understand that emotions run high, but I absolutely despise how everyone piled on Buffy at the party; I understand it's hard not to think selfishly, but everyone was acting as though she ran away to purposely hurt them, and they just wouldn't listen to her.
Also, didn't like what I saw of Willow in this episode - again, I get teenagers and thinking of oneself, but having a boyfriend and stepping into witchcraft is not the same level of stuff as what Buffy was going through; she didn't really have a right to be angry at her. Also, she wasn't really in character with standing Buffy up like that; the Willow we know would never.
Yes they can all be frustrated because they had to step up and fight the evil in Sunnydale, but they shouldn't be angry at her for coming back.
Also, they chose the gathering/shindig/hootenanny they like best without even asking or considering Buffy; a house party with strangers and a band, that makes it conveniently too loud to actually talk about thing, if they even WANTED to talk about this super secret and serious stuff, they couldn't.
All in all, Giles is my love, my life. I adore that man
I can make excuses for Willow (she at least tried to offer Buffy an olive branch before the argument and space to open up about what happened) and Joyce (who was missing more context than the others and had also been drinking,) but Xander drives me up the wall in this episode. Not only is he the meanest of the people in the group argument due to lacking the excuses the other two have, he's the only one besides Buffy who has a reason to suspect what actually happened, because he withheld the information from her about the spell, and he writes it off as "skipping town over boy troubles." Fuck you, Xander.
Oh, and I just realised, Buffy might not have taken off without saying goodbye if she didn't think that the Scoobies all wanted her to kill Angel/gave Angel his soul back and didn't warn her this was a possibility, so Xander's "kick his ass" lie may have led to this situation in the first place!
@@Talisguy exactly, with that comment she believed that Willow had now taken Xanders position so who would she now be able to talk about how hard it was to kill Angel? That lie alienated her further from the group.
Absolutely! Anybody else remember how last season he went on that tirade where he basically berated Buffy for even wanting to try and bring Angels soul back, citing Jenny's death as a reason to not be forgiven; a veil of a cover that he's still upset that he doesn't have a chance with Buffy. Giles, the main person affected by Jenny's death, was able to forgive her and just be happy she was back. Even after he was tortured by Angel! He is just so glad that Buffy is back, and he can see she needs the support
And the fact that, if she had stayed and talked about how she was feeling, who's to bet that Xander would still be tooting the 'good riddance' horn over Angels death, rather than realising that a part of Buffy died with Angel and that, just because he did horrible things as Angelus, a part of her always loved him (despite the creepy age stuff) and so she needs a support system in her grief
Looking forward to your reaction to the next episode!!! ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Oh, yeah! 🥳
I know everyone always thinks Buffy's friends are entirely unreasonable here, and to an extent I agree, but I also do think that it's so much easier for us to be on Buffy's side because we've seen exactly what she's been through at the end of last season. I doubt Joyce told them that she basically disowned her, (she has no right to complain even if she didn't mean what she said) but from the perspective of the others? Willow was still in the hospital, hadn't seen Buffy since she woke up, and apparently her best friend didn't care if she was alright? Giles was just kidnapped and tortured by Angel and Buffy didn't check in on him after. And they don't know that Angel got his soul back and Buffy was then forced to kill him and not just the demon he'd become. Like, they totally should have handled things better, but I very much understand Willow being hurt so badly
Willow here does show a trait that has been part of her all along, but only gradually becomes clear. She tends to subconsciously view everything through the filter of "how does this affect me?" I expect it is due to how she was raised, and her own insecurities.
Poor Pat. she did nothing wrong but was a friend to Joyce and was killed off like that.
who knows, perhaps she was peddling oxy to toddlers.
@Henrik_Holst I was drinking chocolate milk after a long, hard day, and you just made me choke on it from laughing so hard. I hope you're happy.
@@TheRiskPig happy as a pig :)
Sorry but I opt for smelly cheese night every time
Same - I always get indignant on Buffy and Joyce's behalf that the Scoobies didn't bother to ask before turning what was supposed to be a nice seat down meal with the good china - into a large party!
Happy Halloween to you too! ^^
Such a good episode, dang
Lots of people find buffys friends insufferable in this one. I think a couple of additions could have made their blowup feel a lot more natural:
(A) after we see Buffy waiting for Willow, flick to another location where Willow is waiting for Buffy. She thinks Buffy has blown her off. She is upset but represses it and decides to avoid confronting Buffy by pretending she could not make it either. Xander is there too and is furious on her behalf.
(B) Some miscommunication means everyone thinks Buffy actually consented to this party. Buffy’s mother is hurt that Buffy would do this, ruining the quiet dinner she had planned without talking to her, but also avoids calling Buffy out on this.
in other words, buffy's friends would be less insufferable if they had some actual cognizable complaints? something other than "boo hoo i have a boyfriend and am becoming a powerful witch and this stuff is totally comparable to actual problems."
@sirmoonslosthismind This is a common script problem when the plot demands a certain scene but the writers struggle to organically set the characters on that trajectory.
Here's a comment for the algorithm -- altho season 3 is my favorite season, this is my least favorite episode of Buffy and I just straight up can't watch it. I'm not ok with friends saying everything is fine, but actually they're lying and secretly resenting you. Hope you enjoyed it tho! See you soon for the next ep, which is a great one :-D
Interesting take. This is one of my favorite, “filler episodes,” of the series. It’s early, it’s efficient, and it does some of the manual emotional labor that earlier seasons would have dragged out. But I get where you’re coming from.
Because you didn’t call it out, I gotta ask: do to get the musical reference in the title? (I suspect so, but, etc).
Absolutely!!!!! But I will admit, only after I saw the episode, haha. I LOVE OINGO BOINGO!!!!! 🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤
Eeeeexcellent.
Now, if you’ll pardon me, I’m off to binge a few tracks as it’s probably been a couple of years since I last listened to them.
Being the worst friends here, hate this episode more every time I see it.
Everyone has their “can’t watch” buffy episode and I really hate that this one’s mine because without the whole guilt trip for grief plot I think it’s probably a fun episode. I will watch your intro and then your thoughts at the end but I really despise this episode lol. Shame.
This channel doesn't always like my notifications box for some reason.
It's not personal, I swear!
@@TheRiskPigNo, just RUclips being RUclips.
personally iactually like s3 ep1 (Ann). but s3 ep2 imo and i think in most ppl opinion considered one of if not THE worst episode in not only s3 but in s1-4
i believe u will find the rest of S3 much more enjoyable
it had my favorite big bad (again personal taste :) )
What? I think 1 and 2 is a duology.
I kind of hate Xander, Joyce and Willow in this episode.