Fully agreed 🙂 I don't agree with everything JMS had the characters say of a religious nature, but I am struck by just how profoundly he understood the dynamic between faith and reason, science and religion, in that statement. It's one of my favourite ones, too.
@@lukecox6317 I think what he got right with religion, is character who treated their religion seriously, he gave it the respect the character gave it. The only ones he kinda made fun of was the Centauri religion and Drazi, cause Londo didn't take it that seriously, and the non-drazi were not fully taking it seriously, everyone else, even his made up religions, he showed respect to. I do also like he doesn't tie the word "faith" fully to religion, but belief in something. As an atheist himself (something I share), his line about the show "faith manages" was he believed he had an important story to tell, and had faith he could do it, and it worked out. Put your faith in people, for example, they'll generally come through for you. I do have to admit, I do sometimes use it to admonish people who stop thinking and put blind faith in things. Take things in, think about them, use your brain, make sure it measures up, then go with it.
At first I was kind of turned off by how religious B5 could be at times. But it slowly grew on me and I appreciated that JMS was willing to incorporate religious elements into the show not as an antagonistic force, but just another thing alters a person’s outlook on life, good or bad.
@@Scuzzlebutt142 As a Christian, agreed 🙂 faith is a many faceted thing, and religion is only one example of it. And yeah, some people - or all of us, really - need to take a moment sometimes and remember to "put on the other shoe" so to speak (usually the shoe of reason 😛) There is an Einstein quote that is similar to it, albeit in a slightly different direction, about intuition and reason: "the intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift."
@@Scuzzlebutt142 His memoir was pretty eye-opening in this regard. He was (and as far as I know still is) an atheist, but the church group he was briefly a part of supported him at a low point in a way his family never did. I think he wanted to show what a community of faith could be at its best.
This episode, as with many episodes of Babylon 5, go to prove just how much that while JMS may be atheist, he understands the mechanisms of faith and belief better than those who are religious.
I didn't see the last episode of _Enterprise,_ but the twist was that Troi and Ryker were watching a holo-episode of Archer and the foundation of the Federation.
Well if it got enough hooks in you to make you watch the entire show to find out wtf is going on then it did its job regardless, but I can see how it'd be absolutely baffling. Like "Who dafuq is this, what is that war, the fuck are these people" :>
@@IrideaeSnowbloom It really didn't. A friend taped it (yes taped, so that long ago) and thought I might like it, but as I said, I was confused. I didn't get into the show until the affordable DVD packs came out as it was one of those "nerd cred checklist" shows I could check off, but while it took a bit, the show did grow on me until it hit epid levels.
I love B5, but I have to say that this video sure seems more enjoyable than the episode. It’s great knowing that there’s more meaning to it. Watching it the first time seemed more like a collection of short stories that was unified by the general theme of history.
It may not help, but there are several really good podcasts/RUclips channels who are doing B5 for the first time watches. Maybe you can get people to watch if they fell like they are doing it alongside other first timers?
It is gratifying to hear a science fiction classic like "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller, Jr. mentioned. I must point out, however, that Earth's sun will not become a supernova. Only extremely massive stars do that.
JMS hinted in message boards that there was an external influence that has made the Sun die (never confirmed but for my money; the Drakh survived to become the next Shadows)
@@chrism7395or the telepaths branched off to their own race, or aby other number of things, appear they went to the vorlon homeworld so they must be safer there than on earth
Honestly, as much as the episode goes out of its way to show how those historians and pundits a century later were biased, its not hard to see why those future scholars might take a different view of Sheridan's actions. Remember, they don't have the virtue of having seen the actions of Sheridan first-hand like the audience does. And when you take into account some of his actions, it's easy to see why others might think he was overrated. For example, despite ultimately turning against Clark, he did serve in the Earthforce Military for over a year after Clark began instituting ever-increasingly authoritarian rules, such as the Nightwatch and bullshit "anti-sedition" laws. Absent any other evidence, it would be pretty easy to interpret his ultimate choice to turn against Earth as opportunism, seeing a chance to seize power when Clark's actions became sufficiently unpopular outside of the core of the Earth Alliance to strike out on his own. After all, Clark's earlier actions to suppress dissent under the guise of "national security" didn't seem to bother him, so why should they believe that he suddenly "grew a conscience" at the last minute? Also, why should they just take Delenn's word regarding his character? She's not exactly what you might call an "objective source."
Funny, StarCraft 2's Protoss campaign did the opposite to that by having a person who had the direct memories of the past treat Adun like he was a borderline criminal for allowing the Dark Templar's to escape, while most modern Protoss view him as a hero and saint for not resorting to genocide for such a minor crime.
After he took B5 away from Earth control, Sheridan spent a couple of years keeping the station afloat while bringing alien worlds into an alliance against the Shadows, and then turned around and led forces to take Clark out of power . . . and then he gave control of Earth back to the world government, turned himself in, took a deal to leave Earth, and went on to become president of the new Interstellar Alliance. So he didn't end up taking power, but showed faith in Earth to overcome the harm Clark had done without him becoming an overlord to make it happen. I think that, unless Sheridan went on to pull a Palpatine and refuse to let go of control over the IA, there's a lot in his actions to argue against seeing him as an opportunistic authoritarian. Unless, of course, the historians were biased against him. The negative view of Sheridan would be more appropriate for Clark himself, who arranged his predecessor's assassination, instituted reorganization to give himself more and more power, and tried to burn the world when he lost. Sheridan took on a role more like the earliest period of ancient Israel regarding kings, or of early Rome regarding caesars. In both cases the role was to be filled by someone with the skill and wisdom to take care of the current crisis, then relinquish control and go back to farming.
@@SingularityOrbit They could easily argue that his supposed willingness to relinquish power was simply a consequence of his limited lifespan following Za'hadum. His encounter with Lorien occurred after he revolted against Earth, so there's definitely an argument that could be made that he had higher designs, but was forced to re-evaluate his objectives after his lifespan became so limited. By the time he retired, he probably only had a few years left to live, so his decision to "abdicate power" could very easily be interpreted as a dying man choosing to relax for the remainder of his days or simply the realization that he no longer had the strength to rule. Like I said before, absent the kind of information the audience has, future historians can only guess at his motives. And, historically, betting AGAINST the better angels of human nature as the reason for someone's actions have been a pretty safe gamble...
@@Robert-hz9bj . . . and how exactly would they have learned that Lorien only gave him two decades of life? There's no sign anywhere that he had a press conference or wrote a memoir explaining his time limit, or even that he or Delenn ever talked about it. Lorien, meanwhile, was Beyond the Rim and not giving interviews.
I think it is important to recognize the growth of characters and the weight of experience. Take Delenn for example, she did play a pretty big part in starting the war between the Minbari and earth, which almost led to the destruction of the human race. Yes, you can say it was the fault of the humans for opening fire first, but it was the Minbari who took the war to a genocidal level. Ultimately, stopping the war happened almost by random chance when they just happened to take Sinclair and found out that humans had Minbari souls, which in itself is kind of a random unexplained thing. So you can't really give Delenn that much credit for stopping the war. I don't think the young Delenn who first joined the Grey Council would have been able to lead the forces of the light against the Shadows. It was only through experience and learning from her mistakes, some of which cost thousands maybe millions of lives, did Delenn become the leader who could take them to victory. But that does leave the question of whether Delenn should be forgiven for her mistakes or if those mistakes should be ignored because of the good she ended up doing. I don't thibk the people who had families and friends killed during the Minbari War would be satisfied with their loss being the cost of Delenn's education.
"Random Unexplained thing" if you mean how they know that fine but if you mean how Humans have Minbari souls that's fully explained by the fact that Sinclair is Valen himself
@@cyberninjazero5659but none of the Minbari knew any of that when they took Sinclair. And they didn't find out why humans had Minbari souls until years later. So from the perspective of the people involved at the time, it was a random unexplained event.
@@KingOfMadCows Oh yeah from the perspective of the warring parties it definitely was. Though in actuality because it was a time loop it was planned by Valen/Sinclair himself to happen/remain that way
I like the video, especially the political comparisons made. The Dukakis thing for instance. I was there in 92 when G.H.W.Bush lost the election to Clinton. Perot for sure diluted the electorate and yeah, Bush made a mistake with the no new taxes thing. But in my opinion we haven't had anyone as qualified to be president than him. We've had presidents rise to the challenge and others who ended up being great overcoming shortfalls. Obama, Johnson, Truman come to mind. But no president before or since has had such a great resume. CIA director, VP, UN ambassador, Texas Governor and son of another person who would have done a pretty good job. Prescott Bush. And when people are saying that if Reagan, Eisenhower or even Washington came back and would explode over what the Republican party looks like now. I wonder how things might be different. We're about to elect one of two octogenarian candidates neither of whom are qualified, both seem to have Alzheimer's or something. We're not going to the stars. We're going to Hell!
So, you prefer if Republicans just go back to letting the democrats continue to lie about them and go back to letting the democrats do whatever the hell they want? Neither Washington nor Eisenhower would "explode" at what the Republicans have become, they would however have exploded at us for having sat by and let things get to this point in allowing democrats to have free reign in our country instead of wiping them out like we should have done after the civil war. Obama did more to divide America than any other president, Johnson was a close second in that regard, spreading lies about the Republicans. What's more you are ignorant as to the true nature of the democrats, which more closely resembles that of president Clark of the EA, identically in almost every way. Educate yourself before you start commenting on politics.
I know the episode just hints at it intentionally, but I would love another story (like the Technomage trilogy) about what is going on in the one million year future and why the sun went nova so early.
Yes, before this we'd technically had three or even four potential endings for the show (with two more to come). But JMS created a universe. Probably around twenty years ahead of his time, but still.
Mars wanted independence. Earth could never hold Mars subject forever. But Sheridan (with Delenn, G'kar, and Mollari) created an impetus for the recognition of Mars' independence in exchange for ISA membership, and access to artificial grav tech.
Yeah, Season 5 was just depressing as hell. Looking back I think it was a mistake, but at the time I was thrilled to hear it was being made. I rank my favorite B5 seasons from best to worst as follows : 3, 4, 2, 1, 5
Season Four (as produced) just mined too much from Season Five for it to work well. And then there was the stuff in Season Five that was backfilled with cut material from Season Four, like Byron's crew, which just didn't fit as well when it finally aired.
@@boobah5643 Agreed. On top of that, Season Five was hampered by the absence of both Ivanova and Marcus. The actress playing the former is to blame for not telling JMS she intended to leave at the end of Season Four. Otherwise JMS would have written her out of the show properly and would not have killed off Marcus' character.
I rewatched b5 recently from start to finish. Season 5 has some issues but it was much better than I remembered. Winning the peace is much harder than winning the war and seeing how that play out was a good concept. Losing Ivanovna however really hurt the ensemble
@@wyrdwik4610 I believe the original intent was for Season Five to wrap up the Earth civil war arc, while Season Four would focus exclusively on finishing the Shadow War.
When Season 4 originally aired, the episode Sleeping In Light served as the series finale. It aired again at the end of Season 5 and likewise thereafter.
11:30 Now who's historically revisionist, Chuck? In that room we have Dr. Franklin, who had a drug problem, yelled at, and threw things, at his staff. He also, rather than explaining himself several times, actually just told people to let him do something, and in fact, did several things that nearly caused interstellar incidents. Oh, and he let slip about the life transfer machine at the WORST possible time. John Sheridan. I'd list the ways this man is a jackass, but then I'd be devaluing his fight for the users. But at least twice he walked into a room, and propped his feet up on the table/desk, while wearing a poop eating grin...that is jackass behavior even if he's right to do so. Delenn...she cast the deciding vote to killing humanity, AND didn't actually push to stop the slaughter until much, much too late for it to be an act of morality, but more an act of religion, when she found out about the Valen's soul thing with Captain Ent(I like Sinclair, it should be noted, but sometimes he and Robert Beltran could have started their own forest). And finally, MISTER Garibaldi...I mean, do I even need to list them out? Drunk on duty, even here, did so many ass things over the course of the series that when he was mind diddled it TOOK a while to notice he was being a bigger ass than usual. And of course, trying to convince people bald could be sexy. A crime in many jurisdictions.
@@clearspira Oh, I'm not saying he's not trying most of the time, and to be fair, he WAS on the road, and fell off only once over the course of the series that I remember, and even then because of outside influences. I'm more just pointing out everyone in that room IS an asshole. They're just not the kind of ones the historical revisionist guys are make them out to be.
@@SamSchott1 Indeed, no one is perfect. From Heinlein, to Clark, to Asimov, their heroes tended to be people...my objection is to Chuck implying they're NOT always assholes. Now had Ivanova been in that room, then his statement would have been correct. She's not an asshole. She's a goddess of death.
Your comparison falls flat when you actually think why did that in this episode and realize that only reason why you made that comparison is because you don't like things have been handled in fiction which is harmless but you seem to act like biggest problem.
@@clearspira The word deconstruction is a word commonly thrown around by marxist ideologues who actively call for the destruction of western civilization. It had its chance to be used for something noble. Its users chose otherwise.
See, I like the idea of exploring how people would interpret and reframe the heroes' actions years and centuries in the future. But having Delenn and Garibaldi reach across the centuries to slap down those who are getting it wrong, that left a bad taste in my mouth - reads a bit too much like wish fulfillment for someone who doesn't like takedowns of historical figures.
Are you complaining about entertainment having some wish fulfillment? Or that jackasses who 'correct' history for their own aggrandizement got a comeuppance? It's one thing when the historical record is actually wrong; it's another thing when someone performs character assassination on a target that can't defend themselves.
@@boobah5643 That description applies exclusively to those who "correct" history for the sole purpose of villainizing an entire civilization for things that happened long before any of us were even born it. It serves no useful purpose except to sow hatred and division, and the mentality that governs my generation is all the worse for it as a direct result. It has no place in a civilized society. What purpose does it serve to teach the youth that America was built on "stolen land" or to portray men and white people as nothing but oppressors, except to sow unjustifiable hatred towards these and cause the division that is tearing our civilization apart?
For all the audacious plotting (and, sorry to say, a few typically dreadful B5 guest performances), I have to admit to finding this episode pretty depressing. At the end of the day, all the pain, sacrifice, pettiness and betrayal chronicled over the five years of the series amounted to very little. The pleasure dome of Kubla Khan crumbles into dust; Babylon 5 is decommissioned, and the Interstellar Alliance is totally irrelevant to the beings that succeed humanity in a million years. It all rings true, but it’s not very inspiring by the measure of a human life.
The evolved human ship has Ranger markings so its quite a stretch to say the ISA is totally irrelevant since the Rangers are still out there. Sure they existed before the ISA but they're intrinsically linked after it comes into existence.
A million years, or even half a million, of better lives isn't for nothing, IMHO. It's like that old tale of a man throwing starfish back into the ocean; he can't save them all, or even save one percent, but, to each life saved for that day, it's a world of difference.
I think that's the point, our heros are unremarked and forgotten yet without B5 humans may have never evolved to Iron Heart energy beings that take over the Vorlon home system to act as guides to the younger races. Which is better than the other option, if we can believe the Vorlon's future sight, neither Narn nor Centauri make it and both go extinct.
@@Arikayx13Well, maybe. With or without B5 humanity managed to nuke itself into near-oblivion anyway, so it’s arguable how much it figured in its survival.
@@michaelhall2709 Correction: Earth nuked itself. The various human colonies, the humans living among aliens on ISA worlds, and all the people on jump-capable ships and space stations lived on. Also note that the story about the Ranger monk didn't say that all the worlds were experiencing a dark age, only that some worlds needed the help, and the Rangers were there to provide it. So assuming things don't matter is a bit like saying that, since Ethopia is doing so badly as a nation, it means that all of the development we've had in the past thousand years has been meaningless. Everything from solar-based water collectors to worldwide telecommunications suggests otherwise. It may be that the far future will have worlds where, as Chuck joked, they'll burn you for inventing the bicycle. You'll have arrived there via hyperspace-capable transport as an agent of a sophisticated interstellar civilization, as an agent of hope. Many of those stars in the night sky point the way to your friends and allies.
_Nightline_ was a good example of late-night news commentary. I couldn't stand the Sunday morning news commentary talk shows, which leans heavily into the conservative views of the hosts (and likely owners), even when they have pro-Democratic guests. Those Sunday shows seem to be what the 2nd segment of this episode is mocking. I'm not sure about the tank image destroying Dukakis. The nasty Willie Horton ad had an affect. Also, the press chased him around asking him if he's a liberal, which the Republicans near the end of the 1980s were turning into a dirty word, soon to be followed by "feminists." Commentary seems a little snarky regarding the 100-years-later segment when the lab deconstructs the characters to make them seem more villainous. If you're looking for good guys vs. bad guys you can see how they treat people. The bad guys want to make "the heroes" less so, while attacking civilian targets, but don't see themselves in that approach: the ends justify the means, or their opponents aren't people. We can see that in the War in Ukraine with Russia's goals, tactics and how they treat prisoners. Much like how the Confederacy treated prisoners at Andersonville. There's currently no "good guys" in Israel & Palestine, they hate each other like the half-black, half-white people did in the _Star Trek_ episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Interesting find in the 500-years later clip of a similar sci-fi novel. I like to imagine that humankind continued on at the colonies and wherever, (more than just as Rangers) and it's just a matter of time before Earth rejoins them. I'm glad to see it was "strongly recommended" considered part of comments seemed a little snarky. Yeah, I found making Sinclair's comment prophetic was something else. There will be another star coming through our solar system in about a million years, but that shouldn't destroy Earth. And the sun will go red giant (which people use the term nova for, which is technically an explosion from a white dwarf star), not supernova, since it's not massive enough in another 4 _billion_ years. The other connection to a previous episode is that this human-energy being took their upgrade inspiration from the Vorlons, and someone said (Lyta?) we wouldn't be allowed to visit the Vorlon homeworld for a million years! And that's where he's going to find "New Earth." Someone suggested the destruction of the sun was done by their enemies. Perhaps we had an open society for so long, that they took advantage, and now for our races survival they need to withdraw to a more defensive position. The headquarters of the Interstellar Alliance on Minbar could be dangerous for them too.
This episode has one of my favourite B5 quotes: "faith and reason are the shoes on your feet; you go further with both rather than one or the other".
Fully agreed 🙂 I don't agree with everything JMS had the characters say of a religious nature, but I am struck by just how profoundly he understood the dynamic between faith and reason, science and religion, in that statement. It's one of my favourite ones, too.
@@lukecox6317 I think what he got right with religion, is character who treated their religion seriously, he gave it the respect the character gave it. The only ones he kinda made fun of was the Centauri religion and Drazi, cause Londo didn't take it that seriously, and the non-drazi were not fully taking it seriously, everyone else, even his made up religions, he showed respect to.
I do also like he doesn't tie the word "faith" fully to religion, but belief in something. As an atheist himself (something I share), his line about the show "faith manages" was he believed he had an important story to tell, and had faith he could do it, and it worked out. Put your faith in people, for example, they'll generally come through for you.
I do have to admit, I do sometimes use it to admonish people who stop thinking and put blind faith in things. Take things in, think about them, use your brain, make sure it measures up, then go with it.
At first I was kind of turned off by how religious B5 could be at times. But it slowly grew on me and I appreciated that JMS was willing to incorporate religious elements into the show not as an antagonistic force, but just another thing alters a person’s outlook on life, good or bad.
@@Scuzzlebutt142 As a Christian, agreed 🙂 faith is a many faceted thing, and religion is only one example of it. And yeah, some people - or all of us, really - need to take a moment sometimes and remember to "put on the other shoe" so to speak (usually the shoe of reason 😛)
There is an Einstein quote that is similar to it, albeit in a slightly different direction, about intuition and reason: "the intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift."
@@Scuzzlebutt142 His memoir was pretty eye-opening in this regard. He was (and as far as I know still is) an atheist, but the church group he was briefly a part of supported him at a low point in a way his family never did. I think he wanted to show what a community of faith could be at its best.
"Oh sweet baby Orwell, here we go again."--The last, best catchphrase of 2023.
JMS managed to pack a lot into this episode. And Vir did a good job directing.
This episode, as with many episodes of Babylon 5, go to prove just how much that while JMS may be atheist, he understands the mechanisms of faith and belief better than those who are religious.
"The boot stomping on a human face forever just got a nail in it" is an excellent line.
"You came all this way just to say that?" "You came just as far to say less." Is one of the most fantastic burns in TV scripting.
One of the best episodes of B5 for me, wraps up the story nicely and I love the reference to A Canticle for Leibowitz
Ok, as a NZer born in the early 80s... i was not expecting to see a screen shot of Bruno Lawrence in The Quite Earth pop up...
Nice lol.
If you haven't watch this episode with JMS commentary he crushes it when the dedication comes on
This Episode blew my mind. Cant think of a Star Trek Episode thats comparable.
I didn't see the last episode of _Enterprise,_ but the twist was that Troi and Ryker were watching a holo-episode of Archer and the foundation of the Federation.
True story: this was the first B5 episode I saw. Man I was confused.
Well if it got enough hooks in you to make you watch the entire show to find out wtf is going on then it did its job regardless, but I can see how it'd be absolutely baffling. Like "Who dafuq is this, what is that war, the fuck are these people" :>
@@IrideaeSnowbloom It really didn't. A friend taped it (yes taped, so that long ago) and thought I might like it, but as I said, I was confused. I didn't get into the show until the affordable DVD packs came out as it was one of those "nerd cred checklist" shows I could check off, but while it took a bit, the show did grow on me until it hit epid levels.
I love B5, but I have to say that this video sure seems more enjoyable than the episode.
It’s great knowing that there’s more meaning to it.
Watching it the first time seemed more like a collection of short stories that was unified by the general theme of history.
@16:45 You really ought to do "The Quiet Earth" sometime. I swear I thought I was the only person to see that one.
You weren't. A great movie.
The monastery scene is based on the classic sci Fi novel, "A Canticle For Lebinowitz"
I need to convince more people to watch Babylon 5.
It may not help, but there are several really good podcasts/RUclips channels who are doing B5 for the first time watches. Maybe you can get people to watch if they fell like they are doing it alongside other first timers?
It is gratifying to hear a science fiction classic like "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller, Jr. mentioned. I must point out, however, that Earth's sun will not become a supernova. Only extremely massive stars do that.
Well, and the sun should have much more than a million years left at its current state, so clearly something else is going on there.
JMS hinted in message boards that there was an external influence that has made the Sun die (never confirmed but for my money; the Drakh survived to become the next Shadows)
@@chrism7395or the telepaths branched off to their own race, or aby other number of things, appear they went to the vorlon homeworld so they must be safer there than on earth
It's a shame not more people are familiar with that ol' illuminated circuit book, now that was some good sci fi.
Honestly, as much as the episode goes out of its way to show how those historians and pundits a century later were biased, its not hard to see why those future scholars might take a different view of Sheridan's actions. Remember, they don't have the virtue of having seen the actions of Sheridan first-hand like the audience does. And when you take into account some of his actions, it's easy to see why others might think he was overrated. For example, despite ultimately turning against Clark, he did serve in the Earthforce Military for over a year after Clark began instituting ever-increasingly authoritarian rules, such as the Nightwatch and bullshit "anti-sedition" laws. Absent any other evidence, it would be pretty easy to interpret his ultimate choice to turn against Earth as opportunism, seeing a chance to seize power when Clark's actions became sufficiently unpopular outside of the core of the Earth Alliance to strike out on his own. After all, Clark's earlier actions to suppress dissent under the guise of "national security" didn't seem to bother him, so why should they believe that he suddenly "grew a conscience" at the last minute?
Also, why should they just take Delenn's word regarding his character? She's not exactly what you might call an "objective source."
Funny, StarCraft 2's Protoss campaign did the opposite to that by having a person who had the direct memories of the past treat Adun like he was a borderline criminal for allowing the Dark Templar's to escape, while most modern Protoss view him as a hero and saint for not resorting to genocide for such a minor crime.
After he took B5 away from Earth control, Sheridan spent a couple of years keeping the station afloat while bringing alien worlds into an alliance against the Shadows, and then turned around and led forces to take Clark out of power . . . and then he gave control of Earth back to the world government, turned himself in, took a deal to leave Earth, and went on to become president of the new Interstellar Alliance. So he didn't end up taking power, but showed faith in Earth to overcome the harm Clark had done without him becoming an overlord to make it happen. I think that, unless Sheridan went on to pull a Palpatine and refuse to let go of control over the IA, there's a lot in his actions to argue against seeing him as an opportunistic authoritarian. Unless, of course, the historians were biased against him.
The negative view of Sheridan would be more appropriate for Clark himself, who arranged his predecessor's assassination, instituted reorganization to give himself more and more power, and tried to burn the world when he lost. Sheridan took on a role more like the earliest period of ancient Israel regarding kings, or of early Rome regarding caesars. In both cases the role was to be filled by someone with the skill and wisdom to take care of the current crisis, then relinquish control and go back to farming.
@@SingularityOrbit They could easily argue that his supposed willingness to relinquish power was simply a consequence of his limited lifespan following Za'hadum. His encounter with Lorien occurred after he revolted against Earth, so there's definitely an argument that could be made that he had higher designs, but was forced to re-evaluate his objectives after his lifespan became so limited. By the time he retired, he probably only had a few years left to live, so his decision to "abdicate power" could very easily be interpreted as a dying man choosing to relax for the remainder of his days or simply the realization that he no longer had the strength to rule. Like I said before, absent the kind of information the audience has, future historians can only guess at his motives. And, historically, betting AGAINST the better angels of human nature as the reason for someone's actions have been a pretty safe gamble...
@@Robert-hz9bj . . . and how exactly would they have learned that Lorien only gave him two decades of life? There's no sign anywhere that he had a press conference or wrote a memoir explaining his time limit, or even that he or Delenn ever talked about it. Lorien, meanwhile, was Beyond the Rim and not giving interviews.
This is one of the best episodes in the best Scifi series
infinitely better and more engaging in one episode than anything the crap Star Trek or Doctor Who franchises have put on screen
Nicely done
Brother Allwayne is a character I aspire to recreate in a tabletop game someday. I've already done a Zathras.
I think it is important to recognize the growth of characters and the weight of experience.
Take Delenn for example, she did play a pretty big part in starting the war between the Minbari and earth, which almost led to the destruction of the human race. Yes, you can say it was the fault of the humans for opening fire first, but it was the Minbari who took the war to a genocidal level.
Ultimately, stopping the war happened almost by random chance when they just happened to take Sinclair and found out that humans had Minbari souls, which in itself is kind of a random unexplained thing. So you can't really give Delenn that much credit for stopping the war.
I don't think the young Delenn who first joined the Grey Council would have been able to lead the forces of the light against the Shadows. It was only through experience and learning from her mistakes, some of which cost thousands maybe millions of lives, did Delenn become the leader who could take them to victory.
But that does leave the question of whether Delenn should be forgiven for her mistakes or if those mistakes should be ignored because of the good she ended up doing. I don't thibk the people who had families and friends killed during the Minbari War would be satisfied with their loss being the cost of Delenn's education.
"Random Unexplained thing" if you mean how they know that fine but if you mean how Humans have Minbari souls that's fully explained by the fact that Sinclair is Valen himself
@@cyberninjazero5659but none of the Minbari knew any of that when they took Sinclair. And they didn't find out why humans had Minbari souls until years later. So from the perspective of the people involved at the time, it was a random unexplained event.
@@KingOfMadCows Oh yeah from the perspective of the warring parties it definitely was. Though in actuality because it was a time loop it was planned by Valen/Sinclair himself to happen/remain that way
I like the video, especially the political comparisons made. The Dukakis thing for instance. I was there in 92 when G.H.W.Bush lost the election to Clinton. Perot for sure diluted the electorate and yeah, Bush made a mistake with the no new taxes thing. But in my opinion we haven't had anyone as qualified to be president than him. We've had presidents rise to the challenge and others who ended up being great overcoming shortfalls. Obama, Johnson, Truman come to mind. But no president before or since has had such a great resume. CIA director, VP, UN ambassador, Texas Governor and son of another person who would have done a pretty good job. Prescott Bush. And when people are saying that if Reagan, Eisenhower or even Washington came back and would explode over what the Republican party looks like now. I wonder how things might be different. We're about to elect one of two octogenarian candidates neither of whom are qualified, both seem to have Alzheimer's or something. We're not going to the stars. We're going to Hell!
So, you prefer if Republicans just go back to letting the democrats continue to lie about them and go back to letting the democrats do whatever the hell they want? Neither Washington nor Eisenhower would "explode" at what the Republicans have become, they would however have exploded at us for having sat by and let things get to this point in allowing democrats to have free reign in our country instead of wiping them out like we should have done after the civil war. Obama did more to divide America than any other president, Johnson was a close second in that regard, spreading lies about the Republicans. What's more you are ignorant as to the true nature of the democrats, which more closely resembles that of president Clark of the EA, identically in almost every way. Educate yourself before you start commenting on politics.
aw, remember when tv journalists were respected!
So that recreation of Garibaldi led to earth getting burned. A.I. really is the door to the fall of man lol
8:00 This and Willie Horton.
I know the episode just hints at it intentionally, but I would love another story (like the Technomage trilogy) about what is going on in the one million year future and why the sun went nova so early.
I'd just like to know why Sol went nova; it's just too small to do so naturally. Especially in only a million years.
@@boobah5643 JMS hinted it wasn't natural but some external enemy making it go boom. I don't think he ever elaborated beyond that hint though.
@@ciaranirvine In other words, a wizard did it.
It'd be completely unprecedented for a nigh-ascended species to have a dangerous rival, after all.
It's really easy to see how Babylon 5 was inspired by Lord of the Rings... considering that it too had half a dozen endings.
Yes, before this we'd technically had three or even four potential endings for the show (with two more to come).
But JMS created a universe. Probably around twenty years ahead of his time, but still.
Mars wanted independence. Earth could never hold Mars subject forever. But Sheridan (with Delenn, G'kar, and Mollari) created an impetus for the recognition of Mars' independence in exchange for ISA membership, and access to artificial grav tech.
Yeah, Season 5 was just depressing as hell. Looking back I think it was a mistake, but at the time I was thrilled to hear it was being made.
I rank my favorite B5 seasons from best to worst as follows : 3, 4, 2, 1, 5
Season Four (as produced) just mined too much from Season Five for it to work well. And then there was the stuff in Season Five that was backfilled with cut material from Season Four, like Byron's crew, which just didn't fit as well when it finally aired.
@@boobah5643 Agreed. On top of that, Season Five was hampered by the absence of both Ivanova and Marcus. The actress playing the former is to blame for not telling JMS she intended to leave at the end of Season Four. Otherwise JMS would have written her out of the show properly and would not have killed off Marcus' character.
I rewatched b5 recently from start to finish. Season 5 has some issues but it was much better than I remembered. Winning the peace is much harder than winning the war and seeing how that play out was a good concept. Losing Ivanovna however really hurt the ensemble
@@wyrdwik4610 I believe the original intent was for Season Five to wrap up the Earth civil war arc, while Season Four would focus exclusively on finishing the Shadow War.
Season 5 could've worked if it focused on wrapping up the Psi-Corps plot
When Season 4 originally aired, the episode Sleeping In Light served as the series finale. It aired again at the end of Season 5 and likewise thereafter.
11:30
Now who's historically revisionist, Chuck?
In that room we have
Dr. Franklin, who had a drug problem, yelled at, and threw things, at his staff. He also, rather than explaining himself several times, actually just told people to let him do something, and in fact, did several things that nearly caused interstellar incidents. Oh, and he let slip about the life transfer machine at the WORST possible time.
John Sheridan. I'd list the ways this man is a jackass, but then I'd be devaluing his fight for the users. But at least twice he walked into a room, and propped his feet up on the table/desk, while wearing a poop eating grin...that is jackass behavior even if he's right to do so.
Delenn...she cast the deciding vote to killing humanity, AND didn't actually push to stop the slaughter until much, much too late for it to be an act of morality, but more an act of religion, when she found out about the Valen's soul thing with Captain Ent(I like Sinclair, it should be noted, but sometimes he and Robert Beltran could have started their own forest).
And finally, MISTER Garibaldi...I mean, do I even need to list them out? Drunk on duty, even here, did so many ass things over the course of the series that when he was mind diddled it TOOK a while to notice he was being a bigger ass than usual. And of course, trying to convince people bald could be sexy. A crime in many jurisdictions.
I agree with you but Garibaldi has the excuse of being a recovering alcoholic. He TRIED not to be drunk on duty he didn't do it deliberately.
If trying to convince people that bald is sexy is a crime, we’re also going to have to arrest Capt. Picard and Capt. Sisko. Stupid sexy bald men.
So I guess it’s a good thing flawed people can be noble since there are no flawless people.
@@clearspira Oh, I'm not saying he's not trying most of the time, and to be fair, he WAS on the road, and fell off only once over the course of the series that I remember, and even then because of outside influences. I'm more just pointing out everyone in that room IS an asshole.
They're just not the kind of ones the historical revisionist guys are make them out to be.
@@SamSchott1 Indeed, no one is perfect. From Heinlein, to Clark, to Asimov, their heroes tended to be people...my objection is to Chuck implying they're NOT always assholes.
Now had Ivanova been in that room, then his statement would have been correct. She's not an asshole. She's a goddess of death.
Gee, doesn’t seem at all like the deconstruction of historical figures and fictional heroes and franchises happening right now.
Your comparison falls flat when you actually think why did that in this episode and realize that only reason why you made that comparison is because you don't like things have been handled in fiction which is harmless but you seem to act like biggest problem.
''Deconstruction'' is not an automatically bad thing.
@@clearspira
True, but I struggle to think of a good example from anything made recently.
@@clearspira The word deconstruction is a word commonly thrown around by marxist ideologues who actively call for the destruction of western civilization. It had its chance to be used for something noble. Its users chose otherwise.
See, I like the idea of exploring how people would interpret and reframe the heroes' actions years and centuries in the future. But having Delenn and Garibaldi reach across the centuries to slap down those who are getting it wrong, that left a bad taste in my mouth - reads a bit too much like wish fulfillment for someone who doesn't like takedowns of historical figures.
Are you complaining about entertainment having some wish fulfillment? Or that jackasses who 'correct' history for their own aggrandizement got a comeuppance?
It's one thing when the historical record is actually wrong; it's another thing when someone performs character assassination on a target that can't defend themselves.
@@boobah5643 Read SageofStar's comment above: it is only half character assassination. These people were right dicks at times.
@@boobah5643 That description applies exclusively to those who "correct" history for the sole purpose of villainizing an entire civilization for things that happened long before any of us were even born it. It serves no useful purpose except to sow hatred and division, and the mentality that governs my generation is all the worse for it as a direct result. It has no place in a civilized society. What purpose does it serve to teach the youth that America was built on "stolen land" or to portray men and white people as nothing but oppressors, except to sow unjustifiable hatred towards these and cause the division that is tearing our civilization apart?
For all the audacious plotting (and, sorry to say, a few typically dreadful B5 guest performances), I have to admit to finding this episode pretty depressing. At the end of the day, all the pain, sacrifice, pettiness and betrayal chronicled over the five years of the series amounted to very little. The pleasure dome of Kubla Khan crumbles into dust; Babylon 5 is decommissioned, and the Interstellar Alliance is totally irrelevant to the beings that succeed humanity in a million years. It all rings true, but it’s not very inspiring by the measure of a human life.
The evolved human ship has Ranger markings so its quite a stretch to say the ISA is totally irrelevant since the Rangers are still out there. Sure they existed before the ISA but they're intrinsically linked after it comes into existence.
A million years, or even half a million, of better lives isn't for nothing, IMHO. It's like that old tale of a man throwing starfish back into the ocean; he can't save them all, or even save one percent, but, to each life saved for that day, it's a world of difference.
I think that's the point, our heros are unremarked and forgotten yet without B5 humans may have never evolved to Iron Heart energy beings that take over the Vorlon home system to act as guides to the younger races. Which is better than the other option, if we can believe the Vorlon's future sight, neither Narn nor Centauri make it and both go extinct.
@@Arikayx13Well, maybe. With or without B5 humanity managed to nuke itself into near-oblivion anyway, so it’s arguable how much it figured in its survival.
@@michaelhall2709 Correction: Earth nuked itself. The various human colonies, the humans living among aliens on ISA worlds, and all the people on jump-capable ships and space stations lived on. Also note that the story about the Ranger monk didn't say that all the worlds were experiencing a dark age, only that some worlds needed the help, and the Rangers were there to provide it. So assuming things don't matter is a bit like saying that, since Ethopia is doing so badly as a nation, it means that all of the development we've had in the past thousand years has been meaningless. Everything from solar-based water collectors to worldwide telecommunications suggests otherwise. It may be that the far future will have worlds where, as Chuck joked, they'll burn you for inventing the bicycle. You'll have arrived there via hyperspace-capable transport as an agent of a sophisticated interstellar civilization, as an agent of hope. Many of those stars in the night sky point the way to your friends and allies.
_Nightline_ was a good example of late-night news commentary. I couldn't stand the Sunday morning news commentary talk shows, which leans heavily into the conservative views of the hosts (and likely owners), even when they have pro-Democratic guests. Those Sunday shows seem to be what the 2nd segment of this episode is mocking.
I'm not sure about the tank image destroying Dukakis. The nasty Willie Horton ad had an affect. Also, the press chased him around asking him if he's a liberal, which the Republicans near the end of the 1980s were turning into a dirty word, soon to be followed by "feminists."
Commentary seems a little snarky regarding the 100-years-later segment when the lab deconstructs the characters to make them seem more villainous. If you're looking for good guys vs. bad guys you can see how they treat people. The bad guys want to make "the heroes" less so, while attacking civilian targets, but don't see themselves in that approach: the ends justify the means, or their opponents aren't people. We can see that in the War in Ukraine with Russia's goals, tactics and how they treat prisoners. Much like how the Confederacy treated prisoners at Andersonville. There's currently no "good guys" in Israel & Palestine, they hate each other like the half-black, half-white people did in the _Star Trek_ episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield."
Interesting find in the 500-years later clip of a similar sci-fi novel. I like to imagine that humankind continued on at the colonies and wherever, (more than just as Rangers) and it's just a matter of time before Earth rejoins them.
I'm glad to see it was "strongly recommended" considered part of comments seemed a little snarky. Yeah, I found making Sinclair's comment prophetic was something else. There will be another star coming through our solar system in about a million years, but that shouldn't destroy Earth. And the sun will go red giant (which people use the term nova for, which is technically an explosion from a white dwarf star), not supernova, since it's not massive enough in another 4 _billion_ years. The other connection to a previous episode is that this human-energy being took their upgrade inspiration from the Vorlons, and someone said (Lyta?) we wouldn't be allowed to visit the Vorlon homeworld for a million years! And that's where he's going to find "New Earth." Someone suggested the destruction of the sun was done by their enemies. Perhaps we had an open society for so long, that they took advantage, and now for our races survival they need to withdraw to a more defensive position. The headquarters of the Interstellar Alliance on Minbar could be dangerous for them too.