The History & Controversy of Babylon 5: The Show Deep Space Nine Ripped Off (Maybe)
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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Are you a fan of science fiction TV shows? If so, you've probably heard of Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine, two beloved space operas that aired in the 1990s.
In this video, we explore the history and controversy of Babylon 5 and its impact on the sci-fi genre, as well as the Deep Space Nine controversy. From J. Michael Straczynski's innovative use of serialized storytelling, we examine how Babylon 5 paved the way for modern TV shows like Game of Thrones and The Expanse.
We also touch on the similarities and differences between Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine. And we explore the controversy surrounding allegations of plagiarism, as well as the ways in which both shows have influenced sci-fi TV in the decades since their respective premieres.
So if you're a fan of Babylon 5, Deep Space Nine, or just great sci-fi storytelling, be sure to check out this in-depth look at the history of Babylon 5 and the show that ripped it off (maybe).
SOURCES:
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www.imdb.com/t...
web.archive.or...
www.atarimagaz...
www.deseret.co...
www.plagiarism...
www.space.com/...
www.engadget.c...
figure-archive....
www.figurereal...
movieweb.com/t...
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I feel the need to express a HUGE G*D-D*MN amount of respect for JMS's handling of his lead's mental health issues. It feels like there wouldn't have been that many head guys willing to slow down or stop production *of an entire series* in order for an actor to appropriately work through what many might have still been considered to be "just in your head". And that's on top of all the pre-planning for THE WHOLE SERIES?!?!
Mad respect.
Not to mention Claudia Christian and Jerry Doyle also battled alcohol issues. JMS navigated all these health issues WAY before current practices we now consider common.
and then conversely you have Rick Berman, destroying one of the greatest love stories in scifi, running out one of the best actresses in scifi, and killing off one of the best characters in scifi.
fuck, with all possible disrespect, Rick Berman.
@@skoltrollkallamik4450 Yes did way better than Joss Whedon for sure!
@@this.is.a.username Berman is an arrogant asshole plain and simple. Always has been. For me he's one of the big reasons later Trek doesn't hold a candle to B5.
@@this.is.a.username what actress?
Babylon 5 is one of the best written shows, even today. It is the only show that managed to turn one of its characters into the villian three times over the course of its run without once making you stop feeling for him. Until today, I greet some of my buddies with the phrase "My dearrrrr oold frrriend!" in Londos accent.
The ambassadors were brilliant actors. Made the whole thing.
true you rooted for him but knew he was going to step the wrong way in the end. was all the actors doing too, that and they had fun, which is why it seemed well made. if i remember correctly the main cast by the end of season one had become kind of like family. which made it even better when they went at each other...especially londo and g'kar. poor bruce got stuck with playing middle man in season two. but he did seem to jump right in and gave as good as he got. all in all it was well done on a small budget.
@@correlfreehand9454 I love how well thought through and suprising the show is.
HUGE SPOILER: We see G'Kar kill Londo in a vision in Season 1. I always assumed this was G'Kars final revenge. When we get to it at the very end of the show (I think it was in one of the movies even, I don't remember), it is a service to his old friend to free him from the grasp of the Shadows. Such a brilliant twist.
@@larsmanstanding434 i think it was in the beginning of season 1. probably others who have it on dvd or streamed it recently might know better. since i only saw it on the first run through. but yeah the stoeytelling was way out there and made you think. there were some where it felt like you had seen it before in an earlier episode.
@@crhu319 - Londo, G’Kar, Delenn - couldn’t agree more. They made the show.
Rip to all the cast members we have lost. 😢
Amen
Yep, very sad as alot of them were really nice funny people
When is someone going to do a video on the curse of working on Babylon 5 (because so many of the actors have died)?
@@danpetitpas Not exactly a curse since some died due to old age/natural causes. Jeff Conaway died due to years of drug abuse.
@@demons27 Mira Furlan's death hit me the hardest when I found out she died from West Nile virus. I was like "seriously, who dies from West Nile in California?". She was very attractive and one of the classiest actresses I can think of.
I only discovered Babylon 5 once it hit DVD but, really, that's the way to watch it. This is one of the first shows in history that was absolutely begging to be binged. I salute those who suffered through trying to watch it as it aired.
It is almost impossible to watch one episode a week!
Maybe it's just me but I have discovered that even though nowadays I can binge episodes of a show I really like, I enjoy the anticipation of spacing them out. The max I can consistently enjoy is an episode a day.
Everybody knew back then - when Bab5 is on, nobody talks to me. 😁I often met with my friends afterwards to discuss the episode, but I had to watch it alone to take it fully in. Haven't done this with a show since then. Andor came close though.
I watched it originally in real time.
Then they did a marathon on TV, which I recorded. Then I watched it again and saw some stuff I didn't remember.
Third time was the charm. I was especially interested in the two different episodes from different perspectives about Babylon 4.
I watched DS9 in its 1st airing, and that was full of challenges:
-After a few seasons, CTV stopped showing it in Canada (in favour of Star Trek Voyager) , so I had to watch it on the local ABC affiliate from Plattsburgh.
-The ABC signal was weaker, so the video quality was worse; especially when compared to Voyager.
-Later seasons, it had no consistent timeslot.
-Internet was still new and I didn't yet explore fandom sites, so I could only discuss it with real-life sci-fi friends; most of whom didn't watch DS9.
I was such a fan of this show, both it AND DS9 -- premises were similar but the executions were refreshingly different, making the experiences of both really enjoyable.
Well yeah I also watched both. DS9 had certainly a bigger budget on special effects. What B5 made special was the x-file vibe and those ancient aliens.
B5 wanted to be more rooted but what many not liked to much was in this world humanity as a society made no progress more the opposite was the case wich was the root for some drama in the story but was also very alien for sci-fi fans at least in this time.(since the late 2000s it became much darker)
DS9 also tried to be more edgy . DS9 'problem' was the Prophets and their double role as aliens and religious entities combined with their supernatural existence was also something very alien to Star Trek .
From this view point make it darker + mysterious aliens + the story arc structure all this got copied too
Both were great shows but Babylon 5 still wins hands down.
ups I over saw one both shows ended with the MC joining 'the mysterious aliens'
DS9 I watch way later then it aired for me it was the weakest Star Trek series. There was no clear mission the the beginning . Only during the dominion war was it clear
Word!
I love them both!
Two things:
1) the role of fans in getting B5 picked up by TNT cant be overstated. They went insane, sent emails, and rattled cages.
2) Hats off to Walter Koenig for ratting those bastards out. Peace 😊 and the best Bester ever
The show is personal religion to me.
I remember when JMS was developing it and hawking it on Usenet before it was even shown. Dude had a vision, and much more respect for his fans and the power they held than any 'Hollywood' exec, especially nowadays. Certain Disney overpaid hemorrhoids could take lessons.
Walter Koenig was pretty much an extra on ST but he was much BESTer on B5.
I think the same thing happened for the prototype Space Shuttle in 1976. STTOS fans wrote to NASA and got the prototype named Enterprise.
Write and keep on writing to convince why it should be done. 😄😄
@@JRcomments The way one moment he could charm you then the next being a reincarnation of an Nazi SS officer.
That was incredible, you love to hate him and hate to love him.
I decided to watch Babylon 5 in the recent decade, and I literally could not stop watching! Amazing character development, amazing plot, amazing lore, this show had it all! Thank you for covering it!
Greatest sci-fi series of all time, huh?
I believe so too. The female characters were well written so a sci-fi show. I tell people if you want to see how to write characters.
The cast was very talented. Given great scripts, the likes of G'Kar and Londo were riveting to watch develope.
B5 was one of a kind, real magic.
where did you find it? I've been looking. Back in the day, I choose DS9, but am curious.
Rewatching season one when you know the story of what was going on with Michael O’Hare is really different. Some of what you at first thought were eccentric acting choices now look a lot like a guy really heroically holding it together for a project and people he believed in.
Combined with the possibility that he was seeing imaginary people and things on set that weren’t part of the script, and maybe having trouble keeping track of actor vs character vs stand-in for CGI character vs hallucination.
And the filming order and airing order weren’t quite the same. You can maybe see O’Hare progress-both ups and downs-if you compare the eps in production order. It must’ve been really rough for him. 😢
@@natbarmore Just imagine what it must have felt like looking at all those people dressed up like aliens while having onset schizophrenia. 😓
I have been watching the B5 series several times in the past 30 years and still there are times when I pick up something new I never caught before. Watching the recent reactions have pointed out a few things. This show has the best rewatchability. The gift that keeps on giving.
There was one scene where Sinclair thought he was hallucinating and it was very sad.
@@glennhubbard5008which scene?
In the late late 80s I was in an animation fan club and received a flyer advertising a new Sci-Fi show under development at the time. It included a brief bio on J. Michael Straczynski, and his plans for the show. As a result, I was excited years before I actually saw any promos.
What I remember the most was the included boastful promise: _"No kids or cute robots!"_
But Babylon 5 did have kids sometimes, and they turned out-oh. Oh no.
@@brianalice Shon. Such a nice kid and very cute.
@@brianalice in his foundation interviews JMS pretty much said the only time he let kids be on screen is if he planned on having them die.
That could have been for Capt Power and Soldiers of the Future.
@@edwarddeguzman3258 No. _Captain Power_ had aired a few years earlier, and I had loved that. The flyer *was* specifically for _Babylon 5._ I wasn't old enough to understand how the club received the flyer, I just know we did. We also saw test footage and demos from NewTek's Video Toaster and Lightwave 3D - the software they were proposing to use for the visual effects at that time.
My all-time favourite show. Ever! Halfway through season one when it originally aired I was hooked by the spaceship design. Halfway through season 2 I suddenly realised I was watching an epic. Episode 53 “severed dreams” is possibly the greatest hour of television ever filmed. Amazing.
"If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
Negative. We have authority here. Don't force us to engage your ships!
Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are Infront of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else!
This is the White Star Fleet.
NEGATIVE..on surrender. We will NOT stand down.
*WHO IS THIS? identify yourself!*
Who am I?! I am Susan Ivanova. Commander.
Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.
I am the RIGHT HAND of vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your SORRY ass back to Earth, by god.
I am Death Incarnate. And the last living thing that you are EVER going to see.
GOD sent Me.
[can of Whupass opens] 🤯
I started re-watching last week having last seen B5 in its original airing. With significant memory decline in my older years, most of what I remember and am exited about now is that there will be lots of foreshadowing, and characters are complex and can change for better or worse... much like real life.
@@wongkit9579 Insert comedic looney tunes running noise as EA fleet turns tail and run.
The Star Fury's design concept was so good, so realistic, NASA bought the blueprints, in the hopes of building a real, practical, short range space vehicle.
Also- can we take a moment to appreciate the gorgeous sounds of Christopher Franke's soundtracks?
Also-also- a quick example of excellent writing, and a peek into a cgaracter's, well, character.....
Londo's fighting a massive hangover, and will only talk 'once the room stops spinning.'
Sinclair replies, 'This station creates gravity through rotation. The room is -always- spinning.'
The Star Fury is widely considered one of the most realistic space combat ships in sci-fi history, in particular to how it moves and operates (Space Dock did a whole ep on it).
Also- I bought the soundtracks back in the day, loved Christopher Frank's work on the show (why they didn't use him for Crusade, I have no idea).
Also-also- The show had a lot of interesting blink-and-you'll-miss-it moments that show the finer touches of world building. In one ep, Londo lies dying on a table ("The Long Night of Londo Molari") and Dr. Franklin has to use a defibrillator on him to restart his heart. When they tear open his shirt, you can momentarily see Londo's, er, tentacles exposed, since Centauri, while appearing human, are actually akin to anime tentacle monsters.
Just a minor note to NASA's purchase, JMS made them promise that the vehicles would be called Star Furies. :)
The NASA bought the Starfury's blueprints?!
Pretty hard to do since there are none. Not even in the various tech manuals. Would have been useless if there were any since they would have involved materials and techniques unknown to science.
The best that happened is that the NASA expressed an interest in the design and JMS said use it, keep the name.
Thats what happens when you have the Jet Propulsion Lab on board as tech consultants. Even the data crystals they used in the show were based on real world tech/theories.
@@bensaret At the time JMS and Copeland thought that they needed a new sound for the new show that will explore different alien worlds and cultures. I didn't mind it and I still have Evan H. Chen's Crusade CD (released by Christopher Franke's company so there wasn't any bad blood there) and I occasionally even listen to it. It's very avantgarde and atonal, but I'm sure Chen would've grown into his soundtrack role more if the show would have continued.
Fun Fast: Not only did both Bruce Boxleitner as Capt. John Sheridan and Peter Jurasik as Londo was in Babylon 5 but the two was also in the 1982 Disney film TRON Bruce Boxleitner as Tron and Peter Jurasik as Crom.
This was my MUST WATCH 90s TV show. Every week I'd tape each episode. I have a bunch with commercials that would be considered offensive by today's standards. The toys were well sculped, but lacking articulation. Have a bunch of those. In Valen's name, I salute you!
Me too. I taped nearly every episode, except "the dark night of Londo Mollari" which I somehow missed. The tapes got ditched when I bought the series on DVD, although I still have some on VHS which I purchased. One of my all time favorite shows of any genre, along with the original Battlestar Galactica which I grew up with.
@nealcorbett1149 I missed that one season 4 episode where the White Stars take on the Earth Alliance/Shadow fleet and Ivanova gets messed up. They didn't air it again in syndication, so I had to wait til it aired on TNT.
We missed it in the 90's but are watching now. So good!
My brother in law, who passed away last summer, would have loved this. I saw it and thought of him. Thank you.
Babylon 5 is my favorite tv show of all time, it’s so good. Just rewatched it again on HBO max before they dropped it last month, the remaster looked great.
@@draco949 oh snap! I'm gonna go watch it now!
@@brianalice yes, with ads.
Hell yeah!!!! Hbomax is just dumb. They like losing money like Disney.
@@BardWannabe
You could say the show is more authentic now considering the ads give it that true 90's experience.
HBO dropped it??? Had been meaning to rewatch it and I hate commercials. This sucks.
I was out on a date and had to leave early to catch S04E04. The girl I was with didn't understand, but it turned out okay. She thought I was mad at the time, but I introduced her to B5 some years later and now she gets it. She would've dropped me in a heartbeat for any episode of Season 4. I married the right one.
I was a huge B5 fan at the time and still am today. The show was ahead of its time in so many ways. Thanks for yet another great video/retrospective.
Without it, we wouldn't have the TV we have today
I still giggle when you consider, trek gave us mobile phones and B5 gave us USB's.
Ironically, watching the first episode of TNG is what got me into B5. As a kid, I was a big fan of Star Trek Original Series. Then TNG came out in the UK when I was 11 or so. And I watched it with my Dad and he said, 'Give it a few episodes, soon you might like these guys as much as Kirk, Spock and Bones'. B5 came out when I was just finishing high school and I remembered what my Dad had told me about TNG and decided to give it a few episodes. One of which was the fantastic 'And the Sky is Full of Stars'... and that got me hooked. The show deserves way more credit for paving the way for long-form story-telling.
B5 remains my favourite Sci-Fi show to this day. When everything came together it was so damn beautiful. I fell in love and was inspired by Straczynski's writing and story telling. Never treating the audience like idiots and just being tragic in a good way. I really hope it doesn't get remade, or if so, it goes to HBO max not CW
JMS is working on two B5 projects, one with the remaining old cast is basically finished and the other one being a reimagination waiting to be greenlit by the studio.
I don't know if this show's reboot will ever make it to tv, since the CW hasn't picked up the pilot episode, and with HBO MAX dropping a lot of content from its lineup, this new show should go to a network that would care about it, because, look for an example, the Magnum reboot got cancelled by CBS, but NBC brought it back to life with two new seasons. So, any network that really cares about nurturing a series, instead of only caring about ratings would be a good home for the B-5 reboot.
@@Bushprowler Not gonna happen (the latter at least). WBD dropped the hammer on everything
HBO Max had done an HD remaster of the series and movies. They dropped it.
@@CantankerousDave HBO Max cancelled and removed a ton of original shows from their service after their parent company Warner merged with Discovery because of good old corporate greed. They can claim it as loss on their taxes, don't have to pay creators and in the end you're paying more for less. Everybody except for some people on the top got screwed. HBO Max was a success and they're stripping it for parts. Piracy became very attractive again.
Saw the whole thing when it originally aired , same with DS9. Star Trek was my first love but B5...man, that was a great show. The characters and acting G`kar and Londo`s relationship. D`len and Sheridan. Its just rich with amazing writing and a compelling fully fleshed out story. I`d love to find another show like this made with this level of care and talent. 5/5 Stars .Babylon 5 is Amazing.
I still judge science fiction TV on DS9 and B5 as the gold standard. Only thing remotely close was the BSG reboot, but it feels like a much smaller world to the galaxy spanning epics the other two shows told. I'm glad JMS didn't sue Paramount, having both shows really pushed the standards and kept the writers on their toes.
@@marcdigiambattista751 - BSG reboot was great too! The only thing that’s come close in recent years is The Expanse.
@@marcdigiambattista751 BSG is hella overrated for the simple fact during the first 2 seasons it floated on plotlines from the original BSG show, then it fell apart as they ran out of things to rip off. Not to mention so many of the stylistic changes in Nubsg were directly taken from both Space above and Beyond(1995-1996), and the original 1996 film Independence Day(I promise you watch bsg pilot and independence day, it's the exact same feel).
@@sirrathersplendid4825 I hate to be that guy, but the expanse is just a rip off of the Grand Tour by Ben Bova, only the Expanse is far more depressing and shitty.
@@dixonhill1108 - I dunno. Aside from some really dreadful acting in The Expanse by a certain diversity hire actress it was really quite entertaining. Rare to find SciFi these days that suspends my disbelief long enough to enjoy it.
Not watched it all yet though: it might get worse.
Thank you for showing Babylon 5 some love. It's still one of my top 5 scifi shows of all time, the music from the last scene of Sleeping in Light makes me tear up to this day.
One thing I wanted to add, you mention Legend of the Rangers as the end but there was another; Babylon 5:The Lost Tales. Intended to be the beginning of a longer series of episodes to fill in some gaps and tell new stories, it had 2 parts and was released in 2007 on DVD. Updated special effects, some cast from B5 and Crusades appearing, and a couple of great stories.
I came to the comments to add this very thing. Did it add much to the series? Not really. Was is it promising to have more Babylon 5? Absolutely! It gave me hope that more was on the way, alas, it was not meant to be. For the detailed story (and a great read about the rest of his interesting life) read Straczynski's "Becoming Superman: My Journey from Poverty to Hollywood."
It's some of the best and bravest sci fi we've seen!
The Lost Tales had some great Spaceship VFX.
I was always a Star Trek guy, but I fell in love with Babylon 5! It was a great show! I’m so glad it exists.
Between this and the Beast Wars video a month ago Secret Galaxy once again proves it is perfectly tuned to my brain's channel.
One of the best SciFi series to ever get written, Babylon 5 gave us incredible TV moments, and probably the best ever (or one of the best) single SciFi episode in the climactic "Severed Dreams". Must see television. Thank you to JMS and the show's other creators and contributors.
There is a new (2023) Babylon 5 movie out now, called "The Road Home". I watched it last week. Its a cartoon. But has many of the original actors voices;
Bruce Boxleitner as John Sheridan
Claudia Christian as Susan Ivanova
Peter Jurasik as Londo Mollari
Bill Mumy as Lennier
Tracy Scoggins as Elizabeth Lochley
Patricia Tallman as Lyta Alexander
just reading that list makes me sad, because of the names that SHOULD of been there.
I binge-watched the whole series a couple of years ago, and even I, a massive Trekkie, consider it one of the best sci-fi series ever made. The "Battle of the line" speech still gives me shivers!
I love the lesson that he'd pull production notes from hospital and police procedurals to keep costs down, because another sci-fi show at the time did the same thing. Red Dwarf bundled in the original pilot script with a novelization they released later, and something that always stuck with me was that most scenes with new sets were annotated with an example of a cheap place they could film it, like service hallways and carparks.
His budget maximizing tactics are honestly awe inspiring
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime It's all or nothing, you have to be good enough to make up for the fact you're making a soap opera.
Londo and G'Kar could never be replaced. 2 perfect actors playing perfect roles.
They were the bedrock of B5
I watched B5 on Channel 4 in the UK during it's original run, and I own the DVDs. I have also met several of the cast including meeting Bruce Boxleitner while I was dressed as a Vorlon. I also have a Ranger costume. I did funnily enough also watch DS9, but I found it to be a very different show, and it's my favourite of the Star Treks.
Wow. What great memories! I actually wrote the first article breaking the news to the world about Babylon 5 for Starlog Magazine in 1993. I interviewed Joe in the commissary on the Warner Bros lot and in his office where he was a staffer on "Murder She Wrote". I also interviewed the special effects guy Ron Thornton at his apartment in Burbank where he went on and on about the CGI he'd seen being created for Jurassic Park and lovingly gushed over the coming revolution in computer generated imagery. What great days those were! Thanks for the fabulous overview!
A beautifully written and acted show. G’kar and Londo’s story was amazing! The story telling that paid if previous episodes and seasons.
I introduced this show to a friend this year. We are 1/2 way through season 4.
Such good shit ;)
It is so good! We're near the end of the second season and can feel it really picking up!
It’s one of the few shows that I feel got consistently better as it went on…
Well, except for season 5, which had a lot of great episodes and moments but was dragged down by the entire telepath saga which didn’t get as much development as it should have in season 4 because of the need to conclude the Shadow War and the Rebellion against Earth plots (and Byron was a weak character IMO-too much Vidal Sassoon, not enough time actually doing anything useful for his faction beyond being prejudiced against normals like a discount male model version of Magneto).
However, even the weakest episodes of Babylon 5 are still better than most shows.
Oh yeah, I have bee saying for years that G’kar and Londo are up there for being the most noted couples in TV Fiction. I don't just mean of syfy, but of any TV show that lasted more then one ep as a whole.
Vicariously watching through your friend's eyes is the next best thing to seeing it for the first time.
I was very surprised to see Larry DiTillio’s name on the Babylon 5 credits. I remember him as a role playing game writer. I played the Call of Cthulhu rpg back in the day. Larry wrote the first real epic rpg adventure module Masks of Njarlathotep. Our gang had a lot of good and mysterious sessions facing the villains he created who were trying to destroy the world.
Thank you Larry. Rest In Peace.
DiTillio and JMS actually have a loooooong history, having worked on most of the same SatAM shows in the 80s, and then going on to make Captain Power together, before B5.
Mr. DiTillio was very important for my childhood masters of the universe He-man and the 2002 reboot
Larry DiTillio wrote some of the most infamous B5 episodes.
I remember seeing his name a lot as a leading writer from my youth as a big He-Man fan. Him and JMS wrote most of the Eternian lore for the series and were instrumental in establishing the sister world of Etheria for the follow-up series She-Ra as well.
Babylon 5 is the best sci-fi show ever (IMO) and my personal favorite show of all time. You can really tell it was planned out from the beginning. I love how many things early on become important later in the series.
I know it was added in later, but one of my favorite ones is seeing when newcomers watch The Gathering and don't realize that they've actually been told one of the bigger secrets in the series but lack the knowledge and context to realize it.
Trek is basically the opposite in that sense. If you see the writer's room, from the DS9 documentary, trying to continue the show, it's a bunch of writers throwing random ideas at the wall to see what sticks.
And you want me to believe those guys spontaneously had the notion of creating a year-long story arc? Yeah, right. I also find it very suspicious that no Trek executive or writer can even acknowledge B5 existed, 30 years later.
That huge spoiler wasn't in the original broadcast version of The Gathering. It was an addition made to the Special Edition of The Gathering that was commissioned by TNT after season 4.
We were so disappointed with Midnight on the Firing Line because there was no Takashima! Little did we know we had the greatest XO of all time replacing her.
If you haven't watched the Expanse, give it a go. Different vibe from Babylon 5, but extremely well done modern scifi.
@@minizimi3790 The Expanse is one of B5's babies.
B5 and DS9 were my two favorite shows growing up. The more serious nature of both shows was a HUGE draw for me.
This, along with Space Above & Beyond were the platinum standards of 90s science fiction.
I saw glimpses of it as a kid, but admittedly didn't dedicate myself to watching it in full until later in adulthood via Netflix - when it was still primarily a DVD rental by mail service. It takes dedication to get through entire runs of TV series that way. 😂
My step dad was the one who got me into it, as he was way more of a dedicated fan than I - so much so he bought ALL of the B5 script books that were released way back when. Watching and discussing Babylon 5 were probably some of my fondest memories of him (he's now passed away, sadly).
Class episode… Just watched the whole series again in Jan for the umpteenth time, and it’s still one of if not the best sci fi series I’ve seen.
Living in the UK, it was on at a crappy time and I think it was Sunday at 6pm, but I used to tape every episode adverts included.
Met a lot of the cast at conventions and still haven’t washed my face where Mira kissed it in Milton Keynes.
Not many tv series get me excited anymore but I guess that’s comes with getting old, but wow, some of the episodes still give me tingles.
Keep up the great work.
Yes it was on 6pm on a Sunday for a couple of seasons then chanel 4 hid it up during the week airing it at 1am
Peak sci fi! So very good
I was in the UK also and taped it religiously, even jumping up to stop the tape when the ad breaks came on! It was about the only thing I watched on TV at the time (besides TNG - there wasn't a lot of sci-fi stuff on at the time). Insanely, I never even got around to rewatching most of those tapes as technology moved along to replace them...
I feel the need to mention that Straczynski also worked on Murder, She Wrote, as that was my mom's favorite show.
_Bravo._ Always good to have a spotlight on *B5.* And I was especially pleased the *DS9* situation was addressed tastefully (i.e., noting what the studio knew and did vs what the showrunners knew).
*Favorite lines from **_Majel Barrett Roddenberry's_** appearance as **_Lady Morella_** on **_B5..._*
*Lady Morella:* _Greatness is never appreciated in youth, called pride in middle age, dismissed in old age, and reconsidered in death._ _Because we cannot tolerate greatness in our midst we do all we can to destroy it.¹_
*Lady Morella:* _There is always choice._ _We say that there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made.²_
Be well! 🙋🏼♂️
··•✺•··
¹ ─ I'm certain that was written by *JMS* as a tribute to her late husband.
² ─ Another favorite, I often reflect upon.
The Great Maker gave the Great Bird of the Galaxy a beautiful eulogy.
"And I was especially pleased the DS9 situation was addressed tastefully (i.e., noting what the studio knew and did vs what the showrunners knew)."
Fully agreed. The title of this video was kind of click-baity -- it's what drew me here, to be honest -- but looking through the video, I'm pleased that it doesn't make the usual questionable claims about DS9 being a ripoff. And I've seen the lists; they have to twist the truth like a balloon animal to make their case. For example, it's said that both DS9 and B5 guard a space portal, but that's not true at all. DS9 guards the wormhole, yes, and it is a unique phenomenon that a hundred worlds would love to control. But the jump gate near B5 was constructed exactly so that people could get to B5 easily, because that's how space travel works in B5; the B5 jump gate has no intrinsic value. To say that the two are essentially the same thing is just dishonest.
And my favorite bad claim is that both series had widower captains, therefore DS9 ripped off B5. I defy anyone to study the B5 Bible that Paramount is alleged to have seen, and find any trace of the widower captain. Any takers ... ? Well let me spoil the matter: B5 was never supposed to have a widower captain; Sheridan was introduced only after Sinclair unexpectedly left the show. How could DS9 have ripped off an element that B5 never intended?
BTW, let me take a guess at something here. We know that Sheridan's wife showed up again as a puppet of the Shadows. How would things have played out if Sinclair had stayed on the show for the entire series? Well, recall that his girlfriend was a space explorer / archaeologist. I bet the plan was for there to be an expedition on some remote planet where everyone was killed, no bodies recovered. But that of course would allow for the girlfriend's later return, but as a Shadow puppet. (Not to be confused with a shadow puppet.) Anna Sheridan being pre-dead simply expedited the matter, rather than having to introduce her and then "kill her off".
@@kingbeauregard Yep Sakai would of been in the Anna position, I mean we had G'kar outright warn her of going to certain places and the risks, clearly a setup for Sakai to end up a Shadow servant.
I loved this show -- lots of way cool eye candy, gobs of development of gobs of interesting characters, an actual story arc to which the writing remained true, in-universe rules that may have been pushed a bit from time to time but never actually broken, and an array of "occasional" truly thought-provoking moments. Near the end of the series, I was teaching an "introduction to computers" class at a nearby college & frequently used B5 images to show some of what was possible while at my regular weekday job was able to silence several colleagues who thought "science fiction is just for kids" by talking about much of what's listed in my first sentence here. There weren't any smoke monsters, bunches of unexplained "just accept it" moments, throwbacks to previous fan-beloved series, or even "wink wink nudge nudge" references to "maybe we'll give you some more movies if you keep watching" kind of press releases for this show. I'm unsure how I feel about a reboot... but if JMS is in charge, then I'll watch at least one full season before judging. :-)
I remember watching that made for tv movie pilot for Bablyon 5 with my mother, who is a Trekkie as well. I only remember watching on air a couple of episodes after that. I did not realize it was serialized until I picked up and watched the DVD collections sometime in early to mid 2000s. It's a brilliant show!
Ah, The Gathering.
Part of what made it so brilliant is that they kind of snuck in the fact it was serialized.
Probably one of the most personally influential shows I watched in my years. Such a deep connection to the characters and outcomes of the story
The B5 people and Straczysinski and others showed up at a Star Trek Creation convention a few times, so they couldn't have been that at odds. I know of a guy who had a bit part on the Deconstruction of Fallen Stars. He played a pilot. When they completed season 5, at another convention for Trek and for the B5, some of them were there also, and there was a standing ovation of J Michael's 'completing the mission' and 'he finally did it', five years. So it was all good.
jms and Majel B. Roddenberry deliberate built bridges for the fans.
I was at a Creation convention that had both commander actors there. Avery Brooks and Michael O’Hare. It was after the first seasons
@@miller-joel Honestly I look back and I CANNOT see anyone else pulling off Lady Morella so well.
I remember buying an issue of Starlog around 1989 which featured an article about the show. The preproduction art was all done in colored pencil, which was an odd choice I thought. The vorlons had arms. Londo had a mustache. It looked cool, though. I had no idea I'd have to wait years for that TV show to start.
I remember watching the show with my parents when I was little, up to and including the DVD box sets from the early 2000s. Just after the season 1 set had come out, I remember I had broken my arm and had a bad reaction to the medication I had been given so I was up all night watching it, and occassionally bothering my parents by recounting funny lines to them. I’ve been a longtime fan and have been doing a rewatch week to week alongside a recap podcast. Thanks for the video!
Watching along with a podcast is a great way to rewatch. We're still on our first first watch but am already eager for the rewatch
I just discovered Babylon 5 recently when it came to Tubi. It was one of those shows that I just overlooked when it was airing. I'm not even sure what I was into at the time, but I do wish I had discovered it when I was younger. It was such a fantastic experience.
So glad to see more people are finding Babylon 5! We are watching the whole show with newbies and people who have watched it far too many times!
A veritable pinnacle of sci-fi storytelling. An amazing show I’m always telling people to check out. I think it’s biggest impact was on characterization. Up till then, characters were static. But these characters grew and changed none more so that Londo and G’Kar. It was amazing.
B5 was the greatest find at a library ever... I will never forget my initial disappointment until I finished the first episode and I was hooked.
I watched all five seasons of Babylon 5 around the years 1999-2000. And about ten years ago watched the movies and Crusade series. It's one of my favorite space operas and probably my favorite tv series I've seen to this day.
And to be fair, I very doubt that any reboot or reimagining could not just recapture "the magic" but even be comparable to the deep story and intricate lore of the original. Especially considering how storytelling regressed today due to companies paying more attention to "broadcasting the correct social message" than actually making a good story.
man i havent thought about Babylon 5 in years, i used to watch all those types of shows with my mom as a kid. Star Trek, Babylon 5, Farscape, Earth2, etc etc. kinda wanna watch it now. Great video as always.
Do it!!! Watch it!
I loved B5, I even got to work on the show when it was changing into Crusade in Sun Valley ca. One of my favorite moments was when I walking out of the graphic design office and Walter Koening was looking at a display that had some models I had painted. Call out to John Lacovelli and thank you for the opportunity to work on B5.
I remember that one-year gap between the pilot movie and the series finally coming out. I thought for sure it had been canned in that time. Back in those days, it felt like five years had gone by.
I never really latched onto that show, though my friends and I watched the later seasons years around 2001 when they would show it early in the morning on TNT. I can barely remember any of it.
Despite my terrible memory, it's PTEN cousin, Time Trax, still pops into my head occasionally. I have no idea why.
That original PTEN block was appointment television back in the day.
I recommend giving it a go again, if you're at all interested. We're watching for the first time and are blown away at how it is growing and how powerful some of the episodes are
Holy crap! Shadow Chasers! I've been racking my brain trying to remember an 80s show with some supernatural theme that had an episode where someone was trying to kill people by putting air in their intravenous tubes. THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Hope to see a video on this from you guys, I remember enjoying but, clearly, forgot a lot about it.
Picard season 3, episode 3: Seventy Seconds features a antagonist spacecraft, the Shriek, that looks like a Vorlon cruiser - especially since it fires a fold/hyperspace portal weapon - while tooling about in what looks like the Shadow (organic technology) Death Cloud. Of course I recognised the Wrath of Khan allusion but the conceptual designs of B5 stood out a mile for me.
Yeah, I instantly went, "They're bringing back the Vorlons!" before realizing my mistake.
Remember Species 8472? I wonder where that idea came from...
@@miller-joel Species 8472 was a fantastic addition especially as the organic technology - their ships were grown from adapted DNA of their own species like the Vorlon and Shadows - was a definite nod in B5's direction. I enjoy watching first time reactions to B5 on RUclips and it still looks fresh and full of firsts in terms of sci-fi story telling, even after 25 years.
@@Kian2002 A "nod," huh?
Back around 1989, there was a little known computer graphics company called NewTek, who made a little known video card for the Amiga, known as the Video Toaster. Their marketing tape had a demo which included Babylon 5 as an animated 3D model. This exists as previous work, which as the show's early SFX were done on a render farm of Amiga computers sporting the same hardware, proves they were ripped off by DS9. Almost 4 years before the premiere of DS9.
B5 still stands as a landmark series. Still rewatchable today with the caviet that the fx gets better and from season 2 on it goes full on TV novel.
I've always been a Trek fan but I absolutely loved Babylon 5 over DS9. Great content. But I most want to thank you for flashing Probe up on the screen. That was a show I was starting to think I dreamed up as I couldn't remember the name nor the actors to search.
I could be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that the original plan was for season 4 to focus only on the end of the Shadow War and season 5 was supposed to focus on the war to liberate Earth. It was the shut down of the Warner network that forced MJS to combine his original plan for season 4 and 5 into one season. When TNT picked up B5, they had already filmed season 4 and MJS had to come up with a new season 5.
I had heard the war was supposed to go through the first half of season 5, so it was more like the last half a year of plot had to be stretched into a full season. It was pretty clear that a telepath rebellion of some kind was going to happen in season 5; I don’t know why they didn’t make it bigger when they had more time.
I think the season 4 episode where Sheridan is captured and interrogated/tortured by the Earth forces was originally going to be the final episode of season 4, with season 5 beginning with Sheridan's escape and concluding with the battle for Earth. When Straczynski found out he wasn't going to be getting a season 5, he moved the interrogation episode back and squeezed in the battle for Earth at the end of Season 4. I am not sure if the telepath revolt was going to be part of the original series or something Straczynski came up with to flesh out an unexpected season 5 though.
@@splifftachyon4420 Yep, that's the version I read as well. I'm pretty sure it was somewhere in the Lurker's Guide. And it makes sense; the torture episode would have made for a *brutal* end-of-season cliffhanger.
And I believe the telepath rebellion stuff was always intended for Season 5, because he had wanted to do some sort of spinoff about the Telepath Wars. IIRC, that was the original plan for the proposed theatrical film.
Season 5 did not contain any new plot beyond what was in the original plan for year 5 but after almost being cancelled they had finished the Earth war quickly to work that story in there. After season 5 was announced JMS had to take the material for the back half of the season and stretch it out for the full season. It’s easy to see why the whole season was so thin on story but JMS did the best he could with what he had. Mad respect for him.
Essentially this is correct. JMS had enough advance warning of PTEN shutting down that he was able to truncate the end of the Earth Civil War arc into series 4 and stick Sleeping in Light on the end. As other repliers have mentioned, if he'd been able to stick to the plan as it stood the series 4 finale would have been Sheridan being betrayed by Garibaldi and captured, with the series 5 opener being the interrogation episode. Like the Shadow War in series 4 he planned to conclude the Civil War early enough in series 5. If this had happened the back half of series 5 would have been much like how it ended up on TV, but the telepath arc would have been initially mixed in with the Civil War - Byron and his followers would arrive on Babylon 5 during the war. If Claudia Christian hadn't left the show, Ivanova would be drawn to Byron because he represented an alternative to the Corps and to evade her grief over Marcus' death and she would have been in Lyta's role during that part of the arc while Lyta would rise to be an extremist in the aftermath - remaining true to Byron's cause even after everyone else was dead or had rejected him.
I only recently started watching Babylon 5, Star Trek TNG was my jam growing up. I have been a bit annoyed with recent sci-fi productions (assassinations) and many people suggested that I watch Babylon 5. I've watched the first season and am blown away by the story and character quality. It's on the same level as The Expanse and I'm thinking that that show must have taken a lot on inspiration from Babylon 5. Most shows these days have assumed that fancy visual effects can effectively conceal their lack of soul. I hope the reboot really can achieve that old magic. They will have to resist the popular urge to "reflect the world we live in today."
JMS may have generally let the feud go between B5 and DS9, but that doesn't mean B5 didn't acknowledge the others existence. One of my favorite storylines (out of many) of the show was when a gift shop opened on the station, to which Ivanova took huge offense saying the station wasn't just another "star franchise" (or something along those lines).
The line was: "We're not just some deep space franchise! We MEAN something!" Which is an even deeper burn, LOL
@@jasonblalock4429 Thanks. It's been a while and I couldn't remember the quote exactly.
@@jasonblalock4429 No, "We are not some deep space franchise. This station is about something."
Ivonava commenting on some skank that sheridan is taking to bed, going where every man has gone before
@@DeclanOReilly He was not taking her to bed.
Why am I just now seeing the similarities? It’s like when someone told me Spawn was just Ghost Rider. 🤯
Harlan Ellison, J. Michael Stra…whatever his last name was, and etc came together to do…a lot. Admittedly I remember that this AND Deep Space 9 were go-to punch lines for a lot of WB sitcoms forgotten to the sands of time, while Babylon 5 is still fondly remembered, so the hell with everyone in them.
Then Crusade happened and it all went to hell, but I don’t think anyone was really clamoring for the Babylon 5 sequel to be Space Battleship Yamato.
I had high hopes for the post B5 setting after In the Beginning was SO good. But yeah the rest were...uneven.
I don’t think Crusade was really given the time it needed to develop its story. It felt to me like it was following the same structure as B5, where the first season was there to establish the status quo and the true meat of the story would come later. It was definitely a style shift, the inverse of Star Trek in going from focusing on a station to focusing on a wandering ship, and so there were going to be growing pains associated with that.
JMS showed up with 7 YEARS of episodes laid out in advance, not the 5 that got greenlit and aired, they were forced to edit a lot out and turned some of the pre recorded material into stand alone episodes/movies to get value from them after they swapped networks from PTEN to TNT (when they expected it to be shut down by season 4, but got a lifeline from TNT)
Babylon 5 is my all time favourite sci-fi series. It seems a lot more realistic than DS9, and other sci-fi franchises (yes, I know that DS9 is part of Star Trek). SG1, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica...etc all had some technologies that were unexplained (warp drive, holodecks, light sabres, replicators, teleporters...etc), but everything in the B5 universe, even the ancient, superior technology, was at least tried to give a rational, scientific development and use. And the human level of tech seems to be on par with how things could be, in three hundred years.
It is so much more realistic. So much of it could totally happen in the future...and is ACTUALLY happening today...
Babylon 5 is one of my favorite shows of all time. The story is so compelling and uncompromising. Set in a world that is not a utopia and has the same hardships and difficulties while introducing a fantastic galaxy was 'chef's kiss'. The characters were well thought out and developed, they each had individual arcs while set in the big story. As you mentioned, it was groundbreaking structure of pre-planned story set in 5 seasons. So many shows have built on that model since that it became integral part of good TV.
I seriously hope the show reboot is picked up because I want to see this story again.
I never got into Babylon 5. Always kind of viewed it as a Star Trek knockoff. Only after J Micheal Straczynski's run on Amazing Spider-Man did I decide to give it a shot and discovered what I had missed.
Hell Yes, Babylon 5! The Rise and Fall of Londo Mollari. My brother and I watched the show religiously from the time we started halfway through the first season. It got hard keeping up with it later, having to search all over the place to discover when on what channel it was airing, and we'd have to stay up to odd hours to catch a lot of episodes in the 4th season but it was damn well worth it.
10 years old in 1986? We're the same age, Dan.
I never considered Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine all that similar. Sure, two stations in space, but the entire premise is quite different. Watched them both.
After the series ended, there had been a pc (Babylon 5: Into the Fire) game in development. They filmed several hours of live footage with the cast and sets before it was broken down. They had created 3d models of the various race ships, things were progressing. Then the bottom fell out and the game was scrapped. I am not sure which company was developing this, but I think it might have been Sierra. I cannot believe with the advancements in graphic cards, CPU’s, etc… that no one has resurrected this project as the live footage (and therefore the actors fees) was already covered).
No mention of the Starfury, Dan? It's a starfighter that actually respects physics!
Watch the youtube channel spacedock, their they appreachiate that
No nose cone.
No wings.
No shields.
No superweapons.
DEFINITELY No smegging mecha transformations.
Just good ol' thrusters attached to a hexagonal pod with enough missiles to get the job done. One of the most distinctive space fighter jets in all of Sci-fi.
Like he said, they were leaving a lot of potential content out of the episode.
@@NebLleb Also no ignoring the Newtonian Laws of Motion.
That early 90’s CGI is really something.
I remember watching this show as a kid with my father, we thought it did the space-station story much better than DS9, focusing more on the politics between the races than the exploration of an already established universe. Recently begun to re-watch it, while planning out a Vorlon costume of my own.
Encounter suit.
Just remember you have to talk in puzzling ways and make comments that make little sense.
Didn't even know about Babylon 5 when it came out. Deepspace nine bored me and as soon as I saw Babylon five I knew who copied who.
Babylon 5 was an amazing show. Great storytelling and character development. At least the first four seasons...
Yeah, had to wrap up the civil war arc in case the series did end with season 4.
It's a tragedy that season 4 had to be retooled. It made it just about the best season of any show, but pushed all the leftover B-plots into a disappointing season 5. 😢
I am currently rewatching B5 now, one of my favorite shows. While DS9 was slowly sliding into areas of religion, philosophy, and war... DS9 dove right in front the beginning. I still love it today!
B5 when full on Religion, Philosophy, and war throughout it storytelling. DS9 drip its toe into such matter then drop until they were episodes center plot, even then it was minimal and blunt, likely being formulated into episodes but it explode more that TNG wasn't able.
Still enjoy both show
Definitely watched this back in the day -- many memorable (also memeable) moments like Garibaldi's "fasten or zip?" discussion, Green vs. Purple, Londo's divorce from his three wives, etc.
Claudia Christian (Ivanova) has also done a lot of voice actor work, including Disney's _Atlantis: The Lost Empire_ (as Helga Sinclair) and Bethesda's _The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim_ (as Aela the Huntress, Adrienne Avenicci, etc.).
Green vs Purple! Lmfao just saw the episode where Ivonuva goes to a Frazier cultural party wearing her green sash. At the end of the episode she staffers out of the room wasted and frazzled
Such great story and chatacters
Ah yes, Londo's three wives: Pestilence, Famine, and Death.
I think "fasten or zip" might be the moment I fell in love with this show
@@erikgorn PURPLE!
Best sci-fi series made. It is extremely underrated.
I tried to watch this in its original run, but my life was in a state where I couldn't really follow any TV series regularly. I still can't set time aside regularly to watch most things. But streaming has a positive effect on scheduling, so now I'm finally watching the whole series for the first time. I remember bits and pieces of episodes still, so even the little parts I saw were apparently memorable.
I was the same. Couldn't carve the time, was put off by the effects. Just came to it in the last year and wish I had watched it sooner
Great video! I was actually working on DS9 and can say that B5 was absolutely the reason DS9 moved to using CGI over models.
I missed out on this show when it first aired. But I'm currently watching it now. It's fan friggin tastic!
Same here!!! We are really enjoying it
I hope you have a wonderful time-though that’s pretty much a guarantee with this show!
To qoute Sheridan, abso fraggin lotuley.
The topic alone gets my like. I have many favorite Sci-fi series, but B5 was formative in my teens. It still holds up for me today. The Londo and G'Kar relationship is unmatched.
Similar premises but fortunately very different executions.
It’s just one of Hollywood things like when two movies about volcanoes come out the same year. Or two animated movies about ants. Or two movies about an asteroid/comet that’s about to hit Earth. Or…
The Munsters and the Addams Family
I love this series so much. So much fantastic content and incredible storytelling! I stayed up late at night watching it on Cable as a kid and got totally hooked. I’m very glad to have found out that it is available again on Roku Tv now. Looking forward to rewatching it more soon! Thank you very much for making this video! A special salute to the lost Cast members! Great job!
5:59: The five seasons could also be the five acts of a classical drama:
Act 1: Exposition/Introduction
Act 2: Complication/Rising Action
Act 3: Peripeteia/Climax
Act 4: Retardation/Falling Action
Act 5: Resolution/Catastrophe/Catharsis
Saudades desse show. Ótimo personagens e ótima história. Nunca vou esquecer do "If you value your lives, be somewhere else" da Delenn.
no matter what her and ivonava scary...although delenn's deliver being cold has always sent a chill down the back. ivonava's just makes me think...okay somebody screwed up big time...we get to see something go boom!
A guest star on B5 I'm surprised you missed, was another Star Trek alumni, Walter Koenig, who was to B5, what Section 31 was to DS9.
Babylon 5 was a great show, but I was more of a Star Trek DS9 person. Bill Mumy and Walter Koenig were fantastic on the show.
Funny thing about that, whenever I see Koenig's name the first character I think about is Bester. If you're going for great actors, there's Katsulas. He brought G'Kar to life.
@@JLAvey Wow that's interesting considering he is best known for playing Pavel Chekov on Star Tek TOS and the TOS feature films. I didn't watch Babylon 5 or DS9 when they aired because they were too boring. Even if I had watched Babylon 5 Koenig would have still been Chekov to me. He was Chekov before he was Bester. When he passes away news reporters covering the story will refer to him as the actor best known for playing Pavel Chekov in the 1966 Star Trek television series.
I remember watching B5 on Channel 4. It is an amazing show. So far ahead of its time but forgotten all too easily, but the mid-90s was a great time for sci-fi shows lime this, but B5 is the very best of the all.
I saw every minute of B5 and DS9 when they first aired. Paramount was pretty shady about copying the idea but they both quickly became distinctive and went their own ways. I went through a lot of VHS tapes trying to keep up with both, but they were some good years!
Paramount stopped plagiarizing after the series finale.
It's misleading, he pitched the show as basically a star trek show and was surprised they ripped him off. It's the part people always leave out.
@@dixonhill1108 A show planned 5 years in advance based on a space station was the OPPOSITE of a "Star Trek show."
People don't seem to realize, that Paramount for DS9 had an entire studio and budget to get the CGI.
Babylon 5 literally were using the home personal computer the Amiga to make their special effects.
The result was more realistic in movement in space battles, than DS9. It goes to show the creativity of Babylon 5 along with the excellent story arc writing revolutionized that genre.
I am a fan of both, but B5 was much deeper and accomplished more.
As huge fan of Trek, especially DS9, and B5 I appreciate this video! You really should give both shows a chance now that you are older, they are phenomenal pieces of tv that charted very different courses. Apologies but the insufferable pedant in me must point out that it’s pronounced Commander Susan IVANOVA (Ee-vahn-ah-va) not (Eye-van-Noh-va) whoever actually read this may now berate and harass me into oblivion for that one, cause I deserve it! Lol Cheers gentlemen!
Several of his pronunciations for names of characters and actors were pretty off.
We came in as well-versed Star Trek fans. Almost through the second season and we're not looking back. This is such a great series. Totally different than Star Trek and it's a shame people think of them in the same vein.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime SO good!
While JMS and B5 deserve a lot of credit for breaking the TV mould of self contained episodes, it wasn't the first show to do that.
"Wiseguy" which ran from 1987 to 1990 had season long arcs in which the protagonist infiltrates a criminal organisation, well worth watching.
I watched DS9 3 times before watching Babylon 5. All the ripoffs from B5 that DS9 pulled killed alot of the love I had for it. How shameless they were about it was really cringey for example B5 introducing a secret spy org called Bureau 13 then lo and behold later DS9 brings in Section 31....like they couldn't even make it section 51 they literally had to reverse 13 and make it 31. Soooo lazy and frankly felt like they were trying to pour salt on Straczynski's wounds by being like "haha we can blantaly rip you off and everyone will think you're the unoriginal one LOL " ugh can't watch Ds9 without getting a little irritated at the injustice of it.
I can still remember many of the season intros word for word.
Honestly, this subject about who stole what from who, and when certain stoy points get leaked is a beaten horse. Enough already. Both shows were great in their own ways and we should leave it at that. Enough with the trying to stoke the insane fan flames.
I never got into BL5, but I appreciated the idea since I watched and loved DS9 in its 1st airing.
B5 is the best sci-fi TV series ever.
Random bit of trivia, the voiceover for that old Channel 4 advert is the unmistakable tones of Colin McFarlane, who people may be familiar with as Commissioner Loeb in the Nolan Batman movies. He's a staple "That Guy" of British TV and has done tons of voiceover work over the years
Babylon 5 rules.