GT7: The Game is Wrong… Toe Angle Explained Properly
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- Опубликовано: 24 янв 2024
- Gran Turismo 7 doesnt do a very good job explaining things especually when it comes to Toe Angles in the Tuning Sheets for Fully Customizable Suspension
In this video i explsin and deomstrate exactky what the settings do
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One thing to mention is that excessive toe angles destroys tyres. Maybe you could test how that is in GT7.
for sure, In real-life, it will be hard on the tires, its something I plan to test in GT7 to see if it has any effect
Toe out in the rear can be used in some front wheel drive cars, at least in limited amounts it can help with reducing understeer
very good point, those pesky understeering FF cars :D
I'll def give it a try, cheers. 👍
Does that mean that increasing rear toe in could reduce lift off oversteer in fwd cars?
@@bigt43try adjusting the dampers or just use front biased weight ballast, lift off oversteer happens because the weight shift from the back hence rotating your car when you corner
Remember toe,camber and caster work together. To feel full effect of settings remember to set caster and camber to a neutral setting. Then you can understand toe angle.
One of the biggest things front toe effects, is Ackerman. Toe in effectively increases the feel of the Ackerman, where toe out reduces it. This is why toe in feels more responsive on corner entry, especially on a lower speed circuit like Tsukuba with the hairpins.
For the rear, when the car is loaded on the outside tire, all other geometry changes under compression not withstanding, you effectively have a front and rear wheel both pointing into the corner. The car is effectively crabbing towards the apex. This is why it gives auch a stable feeling mid corner.
And why when you toe out at the rear, things get floaty, as you are effectively using 4 wheel steering, and the back is turning opposite of the front. And this makes the car do very weird things. The overall lack of stability in the car in a straight line, also not withstanding.
It’s a VERY good point. Ackerman is not adjustable in game and it’s not clear how much Ackerman cars actually have. I’d like to assume that it’s accurate to real per car but we have no idea…
@@Doughtinator for sure. The lack of any detailed telemetry, along with no dedicated Ackerman setting is one of the things that most disappoints me about GT7. Especially since GT5 had that built in data logger play back function, but I digress.
That said, the simulation at least seems to be true enough to life, that thingsike Ackerman matter. Especially as the game also takes the time to model fender rub if the car is set too low, so I have to have some faith that Ackerman is true to life too. But how much is present on each car, and how you can tune it with toe, remains a mystery.
it turns in harder because the front wheel is already slightly turned in, youre always slightly ahead of where you think youre actually steering, and as the weight comes off the inside wheel, the scrubbing effect that keeps the car tracking straight is gone. and so its corners suddenly for a moment
Caster as well is missing which also could have a big effect on the toe and camber angles.
I love this. In the future, you should do more detailed suspension settings like natural frequency or camber...🎉🎉🎉
thanks man, that is the plan, I've been doing a lot of testing to make that exact video, I thought toe angle was worth a dedicated video.
Thank you chriss. I had actualy never worked out how toe in/out works. This makes perfect sense.
Happy to help Mark, yeah its a better tuning aid that I thought it was going to be. very useful!
cheers Chris you have the power to explain things so we can understand what your putting across, I've never understood this till now, thank you and great video as usual 👍👍👍
Thanks Andrew. Happy to help man 👍🏻👍🏻
I think the game description is ok. The toe in will improve the stability of the axle. Hence, it will increase understeer. Regardless it is front or rear. The front is easy to understand. The rear, is due to the rear dont want to move and result in front broken traction before the rear does. Hence, if the rear has relative aggressive toe in, your car will be understeer regardless. I had this experience on my RC car, it is Tamiya TG10. That thing comes with 3 degress toe in in the back. Plus a 4wd system. So, it doesnt matter how I fool around the suspension, the car still understeer.
Yeah idk where he got that toe in makes the car oversteer.
Toe out increase on the front may increase off center steering but at full lock you will have less with no Akerman changes. The outside tire will turn less into a corner, the inside tire will turn more, but all the weight is on the outside when cornering. The opposit is true of toe in because of the same reason.
there is only so much steering lock if you turn the wheels out 1 degree while static, with akerman that will be closer to 2-3degrees less steering angle
@@Haulinbassracingspot on. Ackerman is the key.
Yes when thinking of it describing the stability/grip of each axle in isolation then the description may have more valid meaning.
Ackerman is a whole new unknown as to how the game models that, I can only assume that each cars ackerman is just modelled to match the real version of the car
Great video, good insight! Thank you for the upload 🙌
Thanks man 👍🏻👍🏻
This was an amazing video that perfectly explained this concept..... never knew how to set these settings, now i know!!!
Awesome. Happy to help man 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for thr explanation. Interesting to learn a bit more about it. Tuning is a bit too complicated for me, so I typically just grab a tune someone else made.
Happy to help, have a play with some numbers and see what they do, the best way to start tuning is just to try.
You can always put the settings back
Learn to make good use of the settings sheets. If you lose track of standard settings create new settings sheet and it will default all things besides unremovable mods like weight reduction, bore and stroke etc, and to see what effect is had, adjust one setting at a time so you can feel the affect on the car until your used to settings and can adjust more at once if you know what to adjust to suit your aim
On my Ruf CTR3 i have some toe out in the rear. Helps the rear to come around on entry. Without the back end sorta wanted to make the car keep going straight so i have set like 0,3 rear toe out.
While on my Nissan S30Z i have set a rear toe of in 0,3 as the rear already wants to come around a bunch naturally.
Thank you for going in depth with these settings. Polyphony have made a great deiving experience, as far as the physics go overall... despite some of the descriptions being a bit on the vague, or misleading side.
Yeah I think the game and the physics are solid, close representation of real life, the effects of toe angles do replicate what happens in real life too.
Its just the descriptions are a little off or hard to interpret and understand
I usually stick to -0.20/+0.50 with 6/5 rollbars. A bit of stable understeer, until I demand otherwise. Gives me a sense of control.
Camber is strange. Irl you’d always want more on the front than on the rear. Just look at some races on the telly. In the game, no. And less camber equals more grip midcorner. That doesn’t feel right, does it?
Yeah seems sensible. Camber is a strange one, in an early update for GT7 they took away performance calculations based on camber settings so we have no real way of know 'the best' camber settings without 'feeling' which can take a VERY long time
appreciate the effort that you put into your videos, it helps dummies like me a lot. 😁
Every day is a school day. You’ll be expert in no time 👍🏻👍🏻
The simulation is probably wrong across the board like it is with toe in most simulations 😅 when I was in suspension and steering setup class in college I was told that most vehicles drive wheels are set up slightly toe out. This is because the turning motion of the tire that is producing acceleration is steering the tire inward. So if you begin with a 0.0 angle on a drive tire it's going to go toe in with the more acceleration that is applied to it. Now on a front wheel drive vehicle it would be better for the rear tires to be towed in because they are being pulled and the natural movement of the tire being pulled is to toe out. So front wheel drive vehicles will have a natural toe setting of toe in on the rear. And when I am saying natural setting I am meaning factory setting in real life lol Not the video games or simulations. In real life rear tires on rear wheel drive vehicles should always be set up a few degrees tow out. The drive tires on all vehicles should be slightly tow out essentially just by rule of thumb. At least this is what they teach lol
Yes! I agree, however I don't think flex and slop in suspension components will be modelled in the rigid simulation.
however, I'd imagine you'd ALWAYS want a little big of rear toe-in even if its likely to increase slightly when the wheel drive forwards
if you add full suspension you might destroy your car tho. it should have a better usable default but adding that upgrade on some cars make it useless . wheels getting stuck in the wheel wells,bottoming out on track etc.i work 50 hours a week i dont have time to mess with the settings for 2 hours
Try controller, put handbrake on and put thumbstick to left or right, the move ti opposite side znd see how long it takes on screen wheel to turn, its about 900th of a second 🤔 Ai seams to control the steering on bends, as if it's trying to make corners smoother. Diff changes a lot, try gt7 tuning calculator, gears, engine braking , don't forget the ballast, some think it's a sin
Thanks for this explanation. It help a lot!
Happy to help man
Great instructional. Thanks for taking the time
no problem, happy to help man
PD have taken a "just whatever" approach to what any of the settings do. The roll bar stiffness and natural frequency are the only things that seem consistent with reality. Brake bias is even worse than toe adjustment, aswell as camber...I think the racing dampers come with 3° or 3.5° all round before adjustment. Who is coming up with this stuff?
Yep. All valid points 👍🏻
Very interesting, thank you! 👍🏻
Yeah some very interesting things that are modelled in GT7 👍🏻👍🏻
Great vid, do it for the rest of the suspension components.
It’s in the plan 👍🏻👍🏻
2 things are missing in the setup menu, caster and tire pressure.
very true, GT7 definitely gives us simplified setup options
This was a much needed video, thanks.
Happy to help 👍🏻
i'm grinding up my B-spec drivers rating just now on the ps3 GT5 RPCS3 emulator. (working smooth as silk BTW) on the 200 lap endurance race , superspeedway Indy track. I use the fastest car, the 2011 vettel.
Defult it has the most extreme toe setting.
- 50 front (toe out) and +50 rear (toe in). This help with stabilizing the car/beast. It has 45% weight front and 55% rear, and ca 1480hp ich).
But with defult toe setting it heat up fast the inner front tire and at the back it's the outside tyre who get hotter and wear faster.
So if i tune the front toe to + 21 and 0 at the rear then they run cooler and last longer, aka same friction on inside and outside tyres.
BTW in the emulator i can speed up tempo in the game 10 times, so the B-spec bob grinding goes fast.
Was having trouble with Tokyo expressway put a bit of toe out in the front and toe in in the rear and I'm powering my supra round the corners like I'm in a f1 car
Awesome. Love to hear it 🔥🔥
Hey, you're so fanatic with simracing, I like your GT7 videos about tuning, but you deserve a better wheel than a Logitech wheel man. Still nice videos though! I hope that if you're into a new wheel someone comes along and helps you out with a nice wheel with at least a bit more than 2nm of ffb torque 😅
haha thanks man! I like my G29 still... appreciate your message though
Great job Chris, 👏.
Like deployed 👍
😎🎙🏎✅️
Thanks Julian
In real life, in general, If the axle drives it should have toe out and if the axel does not drive it has toe in. It seems to be the opposite on GT7
On the front. I agree with that. But on the rear I think you’d always want toe in 👍🏻
What kind of effects would having absolute zero toe have, because not only do cars have an Ackerman angle, but messing with the toe could also mess with overall wheel alignment which is why I always run zero toe.
@@Doughtinator A rear wheel drive car would usually have some toe out a the rear whereas a front wheel drive car would have zero or very little toe in. This to account deflection in wheel alignment caused by drive or drag.
In real world racing toe, camber, and caster are adjusted for each wheel to meet the track, and environmental conditions. Assetta corsa competizone does a pretty decent job simulating this.
Now try this in Wrc Ea rally.
I don’t have WRC 🤷🏻♂️
@@Doughtinator 🫤
Now add steering angle and repeat and olay with spacer, wider tire and or both 😊
Interesting… I might take a look at that 👍🏻👍🏻
@@Doughtinator I would definitely like to see it. So of the cars I use I will zero the toe upfront or have 1 -3 out of I am equip wide tire plus spacer. Really curious if you find that you like it or not. I race the tournaments so I try not to use steering mods as a crutch but I would like to use it on the courses with deadman curves / horseshoe/ spoon/ teardrop, whatever depending on the different track driver want to explain the shape of the turn.
Good video, I like seeing the polls and I think your content quality and numbers will grow the way you're managing your channel.
I've been using toe in at front of car from the day I started playing gt7 can't believe it's taken this long for a vid about it. 🙄
Yeah its definitely an under used tuning aid
Thx very helpful
happy to help man
Say what you will about Forza, but it def had me messing w things like this for the first time in any racing game.. I do think theyre on to something here, I was actually learning about tuning and feeling the difference… All said, I do believe GT7 is on a whole diff level though when it comes to simulation and the entire package. The polish of Forza and the user experience needs a serious overhaul, ultimately made me stop playing it. We need the best of both rolled into one mega game!
Yeah agreed, I really think GT7 should really have a mini series or activities that help drivers to change settings and experience the differences... I may actually do that as a video series
Can you explain how to tune car for drifting? That would be assume 🤩
I’ve been thinking about this for a while. The truth is. I’ve tried but I’m not great at drifting 😳🙄🤣
However. I keep trying. And when I find the secret. I’ll share it 👍🏻👍🏻
0:13 how do you get that camera angle?
if you 'disable' a song in options then choose music replay using the song you disabled you'll get various interesting camera angles each time you start the music replay
The fact PD’s garbage descriptions don’t help clear these things is frustrating.
Yeah the descriptions could do with some work
I wonder if you can help the community (me) with a tune for the fiat abarth engine swap. It drives super fast but i cant drive the nurburgring without crashing :( the car goes evertywhere...
This is the best I got it. I used it for the Daytona grind.
ruclips.net/video/kZt-gIsw81Y/видео.html
is your front to rear downforce ratio not contributing to alot of the understeer your getting on stock toe angles matey?
Would softening the anti roll at front help too
@@stedz2000 yes and no, depends on the relationship between the settings. Usually it should start giving the desired effect. You could choose to stiffen the rear roll bar instead of loosen front and stiffen rear together. However in this case the difference in front to rear downforce ratio is too big of an issue and it would be better to rectify that then think if adjusting roll bars. I was just going on about the settings being used, suspension wise I think they were more or less the stock settings as it was just a test to show how toe works. The downforce settings aren't stock though and likely hindered the results of the toe tests
Yeah I think the base setup of the car was just a bit understeery. I think the wing I was used had a fixed downforce setting. I only used it because it looked like a NASCAR lol!
@@Doughtinator i did the same for a NASCAR one 🤣, I've got a Texaco/havoline one. Your front was only 200 where as your rear was 500. You can adjust it though
@PatSharpsMullett interesting. I didn’t think it was adjustable. I’ll re check 👍🏻
Thanks dad
🤣🤣 no problem 👍🏻👍🏻
I think in some cases we expect too much from a game. You can't expect it to be accurate to a T, after all it is a game, a simulation not reality.
That's a pretty silly attitude to have, these guys model cars details down to every nut and bolt. Sure they also know about tuning.
I mean ACC got it right.
@TheOfficialRandomGuy then play ACC this is trying to appeal to the masses
@@silckyslide6195 just because “it appeals to the masses” doesn’t mean it has to have inaccurate setups. Even though the op has it backward about front toe.
I actually think the changes and the effects they have ARE accurate to real life. the problem is just the in-game words describing the effects are only valid for REAR toe-in and almost have the opposite effect when applied to the front axle
Is there a speed compromise?
its something I think I will test in the future, that and also tire wear
I wonder how the setup would change for a FWD car
Would toe out on the rear would be excusable then?
Yes the effects should be similar on an FWD car. And yes. FWD might be an exception for tow out at the rear. Only a little bit though 👍🏻
with BOP they won't let you do any tuning!
There’s a tiny circle by the setting
Why didn’t you test it with a proper race car? Toe angle adjustments are most noticable on Gr.1 and above
I just went with a mid power car to allow the feeling of rear toe to not be masked by too much power.
@@Doughtinator Audi R18 TDI has only 540 HP it would be a nice car for a test like this
Nothing in GT7 is right anyway lol
What isn’t wrong in GT7 currently? 🤣
🤣🤣
Honestly, I'm not gonna lie. It's funny how a bunch of people are going "Yeah, this little part of Gt7? Completely wrong."
Funny how this game that prides itself on "being the real racing simulator" shits the bed in so many ways that even in it's broken state now, Forza at least has telemetry.
Holy shit, Polyphony. You're literally only good for a screensaver and a fucking wallpaper maker.
Forza tem telemetria pra que? Se nem o vácuo do Forza é correto, a física parece NFS.
Jesus, Forza não serve nem pra limpar a bunda.
for what its worth, I think the effects ARE accurate to what I'd expect in real life, its just the in-game explanation is a little off or hard to understand,
Telemetry... yeah that is sorely missing from GT7...
@@Doughtinator The tire slip angle is what gets me the most. People have been reporting for awhile that you don't have any feel or much tell for when you're going to slip or when your car is at it's limit. Every vehicle turns on a rail until your car basically says "Im done" and goes into a slide. It's like how it was in iRacing where the professional drivers complained about the exact same thing, difference being that Polyphony never fixed it, they just fixed how abruptly and violently you spin.
Could you do a video of this on a fast ish road car mate
I'll see what I can do, effects should be exactly the same as demonstrated in the Gr4 car though