This video is an educational case study, exploring the habits and behaviors of a League player who has an unhealthy relationship with the game. A player that is ruining the ranked experience for themselves and others. We felt a responsibility to make this video (following up from our original podcast episode 130) as Neace is a fellow coach and an individual with the most influential voice in the League help/improvement space, specifically for new players. For Neace’s sake and the entire community, this cannot continue. We already have a hard enough time as it is with misconceptions and false narratives that plague the league community. We don't need to add more fuel to the fire of the game we love. What you will see is a compilation of the themes we have discussed across our 130 podcast episodes of SoloQ improvement such as; the importance of champion mastery, getting into the details, taking responsibility, being curious, asking HIGH quality questions, understanding how your mistakes impact the game and how to review your games properly. Having a true process towards your SoloQ. Neace teaches us all what happens to your SoloQ journey (43% win rate) when you do the complete opposite AND has proven to us that the ranked and MMR system is working exactly as intended, contrary to his belief.
As much as i would like to full agree with you i can't. Neace is the perfect example of how the Ranking system in league is fucked. Neace is a player that's been Gm and Masters in NA many times. How did he obtain masters/gm? Duo abusing, dodging and abusing new account MMR gains. The reality is in the past he obtained ranks he wouldn't have otherwise obtain by actually playing solo and not abusing the algorithm.
He was better before (which is why he reached those ranks, statistically, he couldn’t cheat the system by more than a few hundred LPs). The reality is that NOW he’s not at that level anymore. Also, skill levels at ranks in last seasons =\= skill levels at ranks now.
You misunderstand me, i'm not saying he is held back. He hit Masters last season. Duo Queue and the new account MMR gains are inflated and can allow you to reach higher elo then deserved, the reality is he didn't deserve to hit GM in the past he was a mid diamond skilled player that abused Duo. Duo+new account MMR just screws up matchmaking because it takes 100s of games to correct. Duo was removed from masters+ for this reason, but it still plagues Gold-Diamond elo and makes it much harder to climb then it should be. If you're a plat player playing in Gold you're simply gonna lose a ton of your games because your duo is worse. I'm a for fun player that typically sits around plat 4, Climbing through gold for me is just a disgusting tilting nightmare every time i have to do it. Sure if i played like a Pro/Challenger player i could carry 80+% of my games anyways. But it still feels like shit when i turbo gap the enemy team JG make 1 big mistake midgame and lose them game despite how hard i won my role. Also, side note I've been Challenger in TFT and even though Duo isn't really a thing the new account MMR gains inflation is also a thing in TFT and it's how i reached Challenger. I got stuck D1 on my original account because i struggled in diamond then improved, but my MMR was shit because i struggled so my LP gains were awful. Made a second account, hard smurfed in Silver-Diamond. So when i got back to D1 my LP gains were crazy and i easily made the cutoff for Set 1 Chall.
Ironically Neace used to state you should never blame teammates and always look at your own contribution to the game... then he does the opposite to his own advice in his own games.
I'm not surprised he's become a bit unhinged after everyone is roasting him for his coaching ability and pricing. I know it's his doing and choice but honestly anyone would go even the slightest amount of crazy when the majority of the community from the game you play day in day out is talking negatively about you.
@@MichaelandthePiano exactly if he cracks and breaks you can't really solely blame it on the community but part of him aswell for his own actions not to mention he's a bit narcissistic so the way he plays is different from the wya he coach and they're both slide in a bad way
I thought league was toxic back in the day but now its full of actual grown men with destroyed mentals, and the new young players are learning from these people. I blame People like Tarzaned personally lol
@@poguri27 They are, in fact, actively promoting it. The guys and gals at Riot do their best to keep you at your rank to keep you "grinding", so you play more and buy more skins. (At least broken down to it's core concept) The entire point of a ranked system would be to see yourself improving with a tangible badge next to your name to share your journey with others.
@@urbanfrenzy6272 the thing with tarzaned is he is toxic but he acts more toxic now because its what his fans love from him i bet you off camera he is much less toxic as he does not have to sustain the character of calling out every mistake someone makes as them being shit
I expected shitting on neace and i came out with one of the most informative and inspiring podcasts ever, this is mindset changer and big effort has put in it.
As someone who used to watch a lot of Neace videos for years and taken Neace coaching, his Korea climb has basically turned me off from his channel and content. The reason isn't because of his winrate. It's because every video he puts out now on Korea is basically him complaining and flaming people. And he breaks all of his own rules (small champ pool, responsibility, mute chat) and instead focuses on the exact opposite of what he used to teach. He spends so much time "discovering" and finding the most OP champ and saying oh you can't climb with this xyz when there are high elo players of every champ one tricking on every server. He also plays way too much and just loses all mental. He needs to take a step back and focus on the mental and stage 3 concepts first, get a small champ pool and stick to it and not change champs every week, and then focus on what is in his control. He will climb if he just does that.
Same! He's just been a toxic rage lord since he went to Korea and refuses to set aside his Ego to Improve and that's both not enjoyable nor informative content
I have the same opinion. I used to love consuming his content but this is really just turning me off and shedding a new light. And I watched and supported that dude a lot! There were many ways to go about this situation and this is just not it.
I’ve really enjoyed his videos and learned a decent amount but holy shit, this has been so disappointing. I mean, I knew long before this that he wasn’t Challenger level but it didn’t matter as long as the advice was solid. But to double down and then do exactly what you’ve told everybody not to do. Especially for someone his age? Yeah, pretty brutal, man.
I used to watch him as well, but I stopped because I couldn’t stand how he treated some of his clients. Now that all of this stuff happened I am not likely to watch anything else from him in the future.
I disagree. I don't think he will climb past diamond even if he obeys his rules. He's just not the king of Macro and his micro isn't much above average
How do you guys only have 11k subscribers? You put out such high quality content its insane. Like you just put so much effort into this 2 hour plus video and basically making no money from it. Kudos to you both.
The mantra of the community isn't meant for the general public, it's for those who have come to realise they have or had a unhealthy relationship with the game and wish to change that. You just lost 95% of the playerbase right there.
I really appreciated this video. My biggest issue with the game is all mental, so hearing the points Neace makes resonates with me, and having someone to counter that and push it back the other way is healthy. I had to take a hard look back at myself and see that I am my own worst enemy with the game. When I am in it I dominate my games and carry, when my mental goes though I struggle to make a difference. Its so easy to get lost in feeling like you have no agency even if a month or two ago you felt like you were the reason your team won. Thanks for the awesome reminder!
This is so refreshing. I'm so sick and tired of friends and the large league community in general of complaining and crying about their team being the only issue. It's such a loser and victim mentality and goes to show people want to be victims so badly but don't want to get out of the hole with actual solutions.
This even happens in 1v1 games like fighting games, Only some players realize that it is a fight against yourself and self reflection and learning, Not some personal ''everyone else is against me'' thing
I mean I see you but tbh what can you do if you leave lane with let's say 7 kills and 3 deaths but bot lane left lane giving enemy Tristan a 15 kills. They've killed your team in a team fight and even when you try to split push Tristan a is always there to Def. It.
Above all else league is a team game. Becoming a better player individually will take you far in terms of your performance during a game, but it will only allow you to climb to a certain point, after that your team needs to be good or else your individual contribution doesn’t amount to enough for a win
@@JuSSayZ Improving your personal play can get you to challenger, as shown by the people that consistently climb to challenger. You can't really focus on team play until you're literally at the pro level, because the ladder is always going to be inherently self-focused, since you can't play with a predetermined team in soloq. There's probably an argument to be made about climbing as a team in flex queue, but focusing on yourself is the single best way to climb soloq. Everyone is gonna get teammates that have bad games, but you have to realize that across hundreds to thousands of games, you are the only consistent factor in your games, given that you aren't duoing.
Dude I started watching video like: there's no way I will watch lol breakdown for 3h. I've watch it all paying more attention than to a Marvel movie. Now I want another 3h like this! You guys are incredible at this, please do more. Now this is a channel that promotes League as it should be promoted! Thank you!
I've said this before in a reddit thread, but I was coached by neace twice and realised I felt conflicted the second time since I learned a lot less... It got worse when I expressed this publically, and then he took offense to this and wanted to take credit for my elo gains from 2 live sessions, I feel so connected to this video. I've learned countless more things from you two and plenty of other coaches as well but equally I've come to learn that the point about whatever elo you are right NOW is the one you deserve is just so true.
I'm so happy that you made this video. I'm a school teacher, I have commented on Neace's attitude and pedagogical technique but he never seems to see them unfortunately. As an educator, you have no idea how influential you are. And that is just in the classroom. We often joke that, after a while, each teacher's classes start to take after the teacher slightly (which we noticed after covering each other's classes) - serious teachers tend to produce hard-working students, philosophical teachers often produce students who questions things....the other teachers said my class is really sarcastic (no idea why) I just mean that the guy doesn't treat the responsibility he has with the respect it deserves. I'm not a high elo League player, but I do know people and teaching. And I know its influence. So thank you for this.
If only that were how league worked... most people don't see neace on RUclips and be like, wow this game looks fun, I'll try it AS A RESULT of watching neace. They play league, don't win as much as they'd like, and look for reasons and/or help. Neace is very popular help. People already noticed the clear restraints put on them by teammates and matchmaking, and neace is only another person with fairly average pattern recognition. You're blaming neace for an opinion already held by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people before we even know who neace is.
On a related note, influencers also have a lot of sway in their audience. Streamers that represent the game they're playing usually breeds the leading mindset of said games. For League, it's obvious that the most popular way to play it is being toxic and intentionally throwing games to satisfy the ego because the biggest streamers do it too. In the eyes of the kids who copy these streamers, it's okay to ruin the experience of others' in order to enrich your own. I guess that's the downside of self-made influencers being so young. They don't understand the responsibility they have in their roles and the consequences that can occur when they misuse that responsibility.
@@TheBigSak69hundreds of thousands of people want to blame their teammates, they look to Neace for justification since he's a coach and self proclaimed king of macro, and Neace just confirms their bias in believing that it's the game's fault. When you have a large following, you have to be mindful of what you say and do, because, after all, with great power comes great responsibility.
I just wanted to thank you for this bbc video, it’s been unironically the most enjoyable episode ever. Not because it’s about shitting on neace, but rather because it taught me how interesting and enjoyable the process of reviewing truly can be. I have never reviewed a single game in my life, but this inspired me to actually adopt mla and saltu’s learning cycle. Thank you for rekindling my passion for league. Love from Japan, 3am
Watching your replays will tell you stuff you can't learn in 10k hours because it's totally different to sit there and just learn instead of also playing, you can also see huge weaknesses in your play that were hard to see at the time.
The funniest thing about the marathon analogy at 38:00 is that in pretty much every single form of racing, there is a process called qualification by which they do take the best racers and put them in the front, and the worst racers and put them in the back. This is often done using seeding based on previous results, for similar reasons to why League does it. His analogy isn't even just bad, it's actually referencing a system that does exactly what he's saying he doesn't want.
In marathon events the starts are based on your expected completion time. So the elite start first. It avoid the faster runners being bottlenecked by a mass of slower ones…
Idk I do think that his analogy does make sense. If you play in high elo you will see that a lot players are way worse than the others. There is a huge difference in skill level and the main reasons are the quantity of games, having breaks and ranks in previous seasons. In the long run hard reset surely would be good for the game.
@@peterpeterson3385 all a hard reset would do is create a super smurf situation at the start of the season. pls explain to me why players like tf blade, should have to vs someone who is hardstuck bronze for the last 3 years at the start of the season? It literally makes no sense. and the results will be the same. the top players will still be the top players, generally speaking. you cant hide from your mmr. you have the mmr you have for a reason. tfblade gains 45lp per win on a new account for a reason, because until he starts hitting diamond, he usually goes 40/5.
@@Simon-nv5zj Yes, it would do that. However, it won't last forever and after it is done it will be healthy for the game. Tell me one good reason why it would not be a good thing in a long run?
I really feel for Neace you can tell the pressure he feels, that he has put himself under, is a lot. He is in a situation where he feels the need to justify his ability as a coach by performing well as a player. Neace has played the game for a long time and knows a lot about what each champion does, and the game itself. For some reason, it seems to me he isn't genuinely curious anymore about getting into the details with the fundamentals of the game. He is too concerned with trying to prove himself. Just because you know something doesn't mean that you will consistently, quickly, and cleanly be able to evaluate and execute on it. Or be able to accurately assess out of multiple important options/factors which is the highest percentage/most important. It's like Neace is trying to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders whereas if he were to just let go, embrace his level of play, by default take responsibility for what happens in the game, and focus on the process he could let that weight off his shoulders. He would feel so much better for it and actually have fun learning, teaching, and playing the game. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, what matters is the quality of your decisions, your learning, and the quality of a role model you are for the community. At the end of the day, Neace could be rank 1 and if he was spreading the same toxic narratives to the community, the people taking learning from him would get worse, not better. Thank you Nathan and Curtis I started playing the game halfway through last year and thanks to you guys I love the game so much, see you in your coaching programs sometime in the future.
No hate but he needs a psychologyst. He is 1 word behind from getting deleted on twitch. Also his clickbaits at yt could sometime get a back lash and he even didnt care ro ruin his whole carrier and his members only for his ego and this absurd idea of being good cause hitting challenger. Not rank 1. Only challenger which he never hitted even with smurf duoq and on a not so special server. He literally needs professional help. again. No hate. He is out of controling himself.
@@Souls7908 his recent video titles are ironic since now he only gets “hater” views or his channel wont survive by the end of the year. If he posted any normal title nowdays nobody would give a shit they only care about his downfall and thats his only merit to get views now. His channel is so far gone and he wont be able to fix it in the future.
@@rosettaaraara6633 why u believe in those based bs. Why so much people are not able to understand how "hater" works. Dude. Again. Most of his hater were Fans of him. Haters are not interest in his suffer they want that he realizes that he is wrong. They want an believable excuse from him for every of his lie.
This is the most helpful league video I've seen... ever... hands down. There is such little league content around how to review and it's been a huge mystery to me. I can appreciate the critique of Neace and why you are doing it, but that's the secondary benefit of this video. A very distant second. This video is massive, ridiculously helpful piece of content that teaches how to review in addition to many jungle fundamentals - which lane to path towards and play towards, when to gank and not to, reading lane states (Look at the coming wave!), how to gank, jungle tempo, adapting to your teammates, playing champ identity in team fights, so many helpful nuggets in this video.
I haven't even watched 30 mins of the video yet, but you guys have earned a sub already. Analysing, going to the bottom of things, commenting, reflecting and helping the community get better is truly worthy. Thanks a lot!
Youre really helping not just neace but everybody in the league community with this banger video and you didnt even ask money for it like others pay for education like this. For me the "how to review effectively" part was the really best because if you learn how to spot your mistakes you already improved like +70%. Thank you!
Thanks for inspiring us to be better. League community needs more people like you that try to change the toxic mentality that most players have of flaming your teammates and blaming on others for your mistakes. Good video as always ❤
@@messwithhelpy uh oh the Neace viewers are here to spread their narratives. Watch the whole video friend, I bet you'll learn something. League is a beautiful game that I love, get rid of those narratives and the joy that can come from not just playing the game, but really learning a hobby is unreplaceable.
This episode is very needed, Your guy's philosophy has truly made me love this game, even as a brand new player. Thank you for being the sole reason I decided to give this game a try and motivating me to be better not just at the game, but at life.
@@messwithhelpy uh oh the Neace viewers are here to spread their narratives. Watch the whole video friend, I bet you'll learn something. League is a beautiful game that I love, get rid of those narratives and the joy that can come from not just playing the game, but really learning a hobby is unreplaceable.
The biggest help was when someone I watched talked about the rule of thirds. 1/3 of the games you are going to lose no matter what you do, 1/3 of the games you will win no matter what you do, and 1/3 of the games are determined by your play. This helped my mental a lot because sometimes you are just going to lose games. No one wins them all
You guys just went on another level, love you and what you do. You guys deserve WAAYY more attention. I can only hope with time more and more ppl will come. Imagine what game/community looked like if even half of the playerbase followed you and at least tried to follow your instructions. Amazing stuff, keep it up guys!
The same things that prevent Neace from getting better at the game are exactly the same things that prevent got him in this whole drama in the first place. Accountability. If he just admitted to never hitting challenger from the start, he woulda been fine. The mindset that made him dig further is the same mindset that's preventing his climb.
Neace is a coper. Dude's been on the copium since Ninja made him retire from Fortnite and come crawling back to League like the little worm he is. Dude legit probably got his boy to boost him to Challenger in LAN so he can flex that rank and swindle people with his scammy marketing ploys. He's also so egotistical, and not to mention a prime case study of someone suffering from dunning kruger, that he cannot for the life of him understand how terrible he is-- he legit believes he's a Challenger level player and copes when he misplays and loses games. Anyone who actually knows they're bullshitting their rank wouldn't go to Korea, announce to the world their intentions there, and then stream it for everyone to see. Neace is basically one of those crazy homeless bums that wear military uniforms as stolen valor in the hopes of getting cash, all the while actually believing in their delusions of grandeur.
The op gg review really helped me understand why i was stuck plat last season, i had the same situation as neace, i spam random champ until i start losing
The knowledge this podcast gave me was invaluable despite being an inconsistent player. Now I am top lane main playing regularly and using things I learned from your videos. Much more so than any other coaching video especially when I watched neace. I hope this channel and team remains around securely.
I started playing league last year. When I was looking for beginner content I eventually found Neace. His videos helped me understand so many fundamentals of League, and for that I appreciate Neace for putting out helpful content free of charge. With all that being said, I have lost all respect for Neace having watched some of his climb in KR. The way he contradicts himself and does everything he preaches to his clients NOT to do is bizarre. I also never realised just how big his ego actually is, he even flames his own viewers and subscribers on stream if they tell Neace he made a bad play or give him item advice etc.. This climb has been very eye opening to both his community and league as a whole. Also love your own coaching videos on your main channel Curtis, I just stumbled upon this podcast and it’s awesome. You’ve earned a sub guys, thanks a lot for putting so much effort into spreading an important message!
Hey Coach Curtis and Coach Nathan. I am not sure this is the place to say this but I wish to thank you. I have been a Neace fan for years. Started watching him when he was on twitch back in season 5 or 6. I enjoyed his content and his coachings and learned alot from them even though I never seemed to be able to implement what I have learned into my own game. I must admit. I am a hard stuck bronze player who has never made it to silver in my entire 9 seasons of play. I was a jungle main season 8-12 and have tried to switch to top in season 13. I have noticed Neace turning Toxic over the last few seasons and have seen the impact it has had on my own mental state. I like Neace believed I was a better player than I am and have blamed my teammates for me being stuck in bronze. A friend turned me to your videos and I must say I have started to change my outlook and how I approach each game. I am really enjoying your content and hope that you keep at it. Hopefully by implementing the tools you have provided o can start to see an improvement in my climb and how I approach each game.
Have just found Curtis and by extension BBC and I have learned more in a week than I ever have playing league for almost a decade. You guys are so informative and as a fellow OCE player there is so much to learn from your videos
I am really glad I found this video and your channel. The way that you guys talk about the game in an even, objective way, always looking for learning opportunities and trying to be proactive and positive is sorely missing from a lot of this community and, from my experience, a lot of people in general. You guys and more the mindset that you represent is what I would like to see a lot more of. Neace and his mindset is what I would like to see less of. I see this bad case of main character syndrome in him and others. If things aren't going well, it's always someone else's fault, and as you guys really put it well, people who think like he does don't stay 'curious' about learning more and growing. I've seen the same thing in other streamers, consistently blaming teammates for performance, just things outside of their control and not focusing on improving themselves. And I've even been tempted to think that myself during games, but I remember what you guys say and always try to let that go and look at my journey and personal improvement. Anyways long story...still long, but I hope you guys keep doing what you're doing and hopefully injecting some better mentalities into the game we all (sometimes) love >.< Cheers
This was made a long time ago so I don't expect it top have recent events in the video. I think Neace being hardstuck shows very much what he's been saying for years. Don't play ranked when life is knocking you down. When you are tilted play something else. The revelation that he was going through a divorce put his frustration and low rank into a new light. It wasn't Korea tat was beating him, it was life.
I just watched another coaches video about jungle and mental state was the very first point they made and emphasized just how overwhelmingly important this is. I think about my multiple returns to this game over the years and see a large coloration between my mental and my results. When I look for blame I find it easily and plateau or even drop because I'm no longer focused on internals that I can control.
Watched every single minute of it and i could't agree more, this video is an absoloute gold mine of treasure and all without being disrespectful. True coaches , true gents. Respect.
Neace is not humble enough to say that he's at best a Diamond level coach and I think that's the main problem here his level of play is nowhere close to a challenger player.
@@dainerduff-dings he did get master on korea however he completely one tricked tryndamere mid on a fresh account to get there so yes he did get master but by ONLY playing tryndamere mid so he is essentially a master tier tryndamere mid one trick but thats it NOT a multi role challenger player like he has said he is
What’s so funny to me is that when Neace says, “I’m getting punished for playing during preseason” what he really means is “I’m being punished for losing games that I think shouldn’t matter because it was a certain time of the year” 😂
Just finished watching, and it's over a year after it's upload, and it's as relevant now as ever. This is a timeless treasure for League knowledge, and a true inspiration for players out there to sort out the educational mistakes you can make in this game. It'll help you in real life too! It's not just about the positive mental attitude, it's the examination of why at each decision. This is a life skill! Well done.
Knowing Neace watches the BBC Podcast (or at least has watched some), there's a lot he could learn to help himself improve as a player and coach. I truly hope he decides to take this for motivation and not an attack to his ego; there's a lot he can learn from it. He is a big figure in the coaching community and has done a lot of good. If he takes this moment to better himself, he will not only become a better player himself, but make a big influence on the League community as a whole. It could be one of the most important steps to popularizing a positive relationship with the game we all love (even though most League players will say they hate it).
Unfortunately he did take it as an attack 😪 He just released a 30 min vid coping about this video, and saying that Curtis and Nathan are "just some OCE coaches" whose advice isnt actually helpful, and it's just all "hindsight coaching" or whatever. Disappointing that he couldnt get over his ego for just a little while and instead is choosing to go on the offensive towards everyone, regardless of how respectful to him they were. When everyone first started making videos about him, I actually felt bad for Neace, but he keeps making it increasingly difficult to empathize with him and his permanent victim mindset. It's clear that Neace thinks that his mindset and opinions are infallible- he's no longer a student of the game, and I simply can't feel bad for someone with an ego like that.
34:22 Regarding the marathon analogy- the goal in League is not to beat others to the finish line, it’s to simply get to the finish line (unless you're actually racing someone to a rank). If you have the stamina and technique to complete the run, then you will slowly but surely get there. If you don’t then you’ll stay at your level until you improve. Has nothing to do with where the other people start.
I just love your content guys. You helped me view League and soloQ as a healthy experience. A journey of self improvement. And I could get rid of all the toxic narratives around soloQ thanks to you
Massive props to Nathan and Curtis for their response to NEACE flame. I would have gotten into an EGO battle personally but they actually have the self control not to.
How in the world has this channel not popped up in my numerous searches of league coaching over the years! This is exactly the message the league community needs! Myself included. I've dabble in ranked on and off for years and always end up frustrated when I think things are clicking and I'm getting better but then I get loss streak after loss streak and feel like I'm flailing around in the dark again trying to find something to blame for the sudden change besides myself. GREAT F"N WORK!
What’s Neace’s excuse about Tyler1 getting Grandmaster in Korea PLAYING FILL and within what a month of being there he climbed to GM before getting betted and wintraded. As a fan of neace once, Neace’s ego and criticism he blocks it all and thinks hes the best and its gross to see now. Neace needs to do better.
I have been watching Neace for many years, and over the last few months I have had to stop. His toxic mindset and lack of awareness have really pushed me away. I am very low elo, and his coaching videos have helped me a lot in the past, but watching him self destruct over the past several months has been disheartening. Thank you for the video. I am always trying to improve. Hopefully one day I will make my goal of Gold, but until then I will keep practicing and trying to get better at the game. thank you.
Thank you for making this video and I fully agree with the personal trainer analogy. I have a ton of friends that were all Neace fans (not that that’s bad in and of itself) who have been diehard defending his delusions that all of Korea is against him. Ironically these same friends are climbing out of bronze for the first time with advice I’ve given them based on your guys’ videos! Keep it up, you’re doing great.
Damn I stopped playing years ago because I had kids but I wish you guys were around, would have been a huge help to my mental when I was trying to learn about the game. Maybe I'll start playing again! Cheers, great content.
This was actually the best episode I've seen, the attitude you guys have is just really inspiring and makes the game more enjoyable to me. We need more positive content.
I don't understand how Neace doesn't understand that your MMR is basically an exact representation of your skill at league. He treats it like it's this abstract metric that can't be controlled. If he complains about his MMR getting lower, how does he not put 2+2 together that his games are getting easier? If you lower your MMR in preseason, you should have a higher winrate when the season starts. He says he's getting punished for playing, when in reality, he's getting punished for playing badly. In the end, with enough games played, you always end up where you belong, there are no excuses.
I noted this too. How can he say "omg isnt it unfair that TF blade is so much higher LP than me even if we both win 10 games" when TF blades games are versus league pros and some of the best players in the world while Neace are against platinum shitters like me.
MMR isnt a direct representation of your skill in this game at all you people are brainwashed. Look at other 5v5 games and you quickly realize how broken league matchmaking system is. have an old account cant leave bronze but new account is sitting pretty in plat.
@@Malix2238 There is no way you can’t leave Bronze if you’re capable of hitting Plat. I’m in Plat and games are incredibly easy to carry until maybe mid Gold. Bronze-Silver players comparatively are awful.
@@kylemurray3526 Rather you believe me a not is irrelevant, the game has changed drastically from previous seasons and your ability to climb from low elo without high LP gains is based entirely on champion pool. Thats why boosters use specific champions. Its still a 5v5 game and not all champions can 1v5. This game's matchmaking is a joke and you realize this the minute you play other games.
love the messages you spread in your videos, been consistently watching for a while but never fully embraced solid reviewing/ not playing duo. I lost EVERY placement game this season, thus the game is telling me to get into the details so I can get back to climbing. keep up the good work chaps.
@@TheBigSak69 i don't think it takes much critical thinking to realise that 10 losses is not a result of me alone. Some games i played well but still lose and that's fine
The issue with Neace is really not that deep. He is simply a Masters-tier player that is in denial. I've played against him multiple times over the years, and his skill level is just not high enough to warrant him saying he is high elo, much less coaching anything above diamond. Anecdotally, I had a harder time laning against RTO, Geronimo, Chimp, and certainly streamers like Adrian than Neace. The only times he even sniffed high elo was when he duo abused to GM, otherwise I'd say hes more of a mid-elo player. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that at the moment, when not on trynd or TF, he likely has regressed to the level of an NA mid-diamond player. While it's true the KR server is hard and him switching to jungle in a new season/streaming/tilting has hurt his gameplay, he clearly does not belong anywhere near high elo, but again his ego and brand can't handle that reality. His negativity reminds me of what happens when you are just chasing wins and not trying to improve or enjoy the game at all. Its sad to see the contrast between his old content and what he has become, but unfortunately I can't see him taking any of the criticism to heart, because from what I've seen, ironically, he is incapable of any self-awareness and thus, not coachable.
Thank you so much guys, i developed some bad habbits again over the preseason, but after watching this i recognized i lost track of my goal of improving overall great video. I dont watch Neace but you guys talking about this made it so clear what im supposed to do now. I hope i can be a better part of the lol player base again.
Btw: Agurin actually watched the vod of Neace reviewing him and himself said that Neace did not learn anything proper from him. About the Malrang invade: Agurin didnt care because a) He knows how Malrang plays and b) Malrang didnt know where agurin started to he would've had to flip his invade and pro players dont really do this.
Neace recorded a response to this video, without even watching it and having his editor with him agreeing with what Neace says. And that was 30 min of pure narcissism and denying the reality
Really good Video that kind of breaks down what mental pitfalls to avoid. Also I was genuinely bummed that we couldnt watch that Agurin game, It blew my mind that he actually just stopped there.
When you are iron/bronze and have like 5 games in a row where either bot or jng type salty bs then start greifing the game/going afk its one of the worst feelings so i can get the whole "game is coinflip" id like to atleast see my second wave of minions before i no longer have a team
enemy team might have same inters or afk players next game or even in that same game. I have seen some wild shit in iron happen even team with 2 ppl afk still winning 3V5
I've recently injured myself and have decided I'm gonna start playing League again to deal with my frustration not being able to be active. This video is the perfect prelude to ensure I begin playing with the best mindset. You guys rock
Neace, while he is a bad coach, is honestly 100% right. Your opinions are all about improvement on yourself. It doesn't matter how you improve, if you can just be #1 from the beginning and the end with a 10% winrate. It doesn't matter how you put it, if you do the marathon example, Neace wins the entire argument. End of story. You CLAIM it fixes in a week, but it doesn't. It never fixes. MMR is the sole determining rank factor in the game. MMR single handedly determines everything. Nothing else is important, your mmr vs theirs. It is entirely about you hating Neace. You hate the message that "LP and rank are determined by MMR which is not started on the same foot." That is Neaces argument. Your argument is, ranked resets are pointless, then why have them at all? They offer NOTHING at all. Grind based on your long term understanding and examples means the #1 players will always be the #1 players long term, so why EVER have a reset. There is NO reason to reset bar nothing. The grinder will always end #1 at the end right?? The grind and speed of games determines #1 only early in right???? Then why reset ever. Next. Players have been banned for abusing the normals exploit of 5 manning in normals. Then getting arbitrarily large mmr in ranked. It was insanely problematic and pros claimed it "ruined the ranked ladder" why does it matter then? Why should rito have cared? Why were pros upset if "skill and improvement" are all that matter? The pros that exploited that didn't massively improve right? Riot wouldn't ban or punish dodge spammers if it wasn't problematic. There is no reason to not dodge spam bad games like Dopa and Tf did during their bad matches. Their is no reason to not have 10 accounts and abuse the dodge system. Its far easier to get 10 accounts via dodging higher elo than 1 ESPECIALLY new accounts or old high mmr accounts or exploited accounts. MMR boosters wouldn't exist or be punishable if climbing wasn't so biased. Professional chess players wouldn't be investigated for suspicious cheating if they thought MMR would correct it. You will just ignore/ban this post and ignore the issue as your careers and money is entirely on the line. The fact is, I climbed higher on alt accounts than main. I won 100% of my high elo account games but didn't climb to said elo on my main over hundreds of games. It is SO DISPRESPECTFUL to start way ahead of others, and to claim to be the BEST LUX in the world if you only play 1 out of 4 matched games with a 60% winrate vs someone who wins 56% every game they get qued for. Dodges. Mmr exploits. Duo quing. Wintrading. Boosting all have ruined the games integrity. I have learned in my games that off meta, such as yuumi on release, even if they are pick and ban in pro play, and brokenly op, will net you a 36% winrate on average in low elo. You will be flamed verbally abused and inted on hate speeched out of games etc before lvl 3. Cowsep had to deal with racism over in korea. Rank is not 100% ingame skill based anymore. I should NOT have a 100% winrate over 10 games in diamond but not climb out of gold with the SAME EXACT CHAMPION if ranked was accurate. I Dislike Neace as he is a terrible coach overall. He is overly toxic, doesn't describe the problem, but this is 100% correct.
I have no real bias against NEACE and in my opinion he is very incorrect (as are you). : 1) "If you can be #1 from the beginning and the end with a 10% win rate" - This never happened. The ranked reset is actually beneficial in preventing this. 2) "Your argument is, ranked resets are pointless, then why have them at all? -The ranked reset mostly reflects the fact that the game is always changing a little. It also gives players a bit of new season optimism. We can technically remove it, but players like it, and it brings many players back to the game so that they may once more prove themselves worthy of their previous achievements. 3) "Players have been banned for abusing the normals exploit of 5 manning in normals" - Ok so in the short-term, that was an issue, and in the long term, problem solved? The goal of that system was to accelerate the rank of smurfs and skilled players a bit so they don't pick on silvers. They should probably just put a cap on it or something lol. 4) "Riot wouldn't ban or punish dodge spammers if it wasn't problematic. " - It is problematic, but not for the posterity of the ladder. It's problematic because if a guy has a poor win rate no one wants to take a chance on him so he's just not even allowed to play the game. People like Dopa aren't going to fail to get to high ELO if they play with bad players, it will just take more games. Instead of getting the account to masters in 80 games maybe it now takes Dopa 100 games or 120 games. If you are ethically playing the game this difference should not matter much. 5) "Dodges. Mmr exploits. Duo quing. Wintrading. Boosting all have ruined the games integrity." - There is no 'perfect' meritocracy. Even capitalism in the real world is flawed. People often make millions of dollars by doing crime. It is likely true that in Masters+ there exists some number of people who use hacks, abuse exploits or take performance enhancing drugs. These things DO challenge the integrity of the ladder, but Riot attempts to address them and the important thing is that if the overwhelming majority of players approach the ladder with integrity then the overwhelming majority of the results will be fair. That's largely why they promote integrity and long-term thinking on this channel.
I think you guys laid it out clearly here, but it's so obvious that his mentality going into the challenge was "I'm master and can easily get challenger. If I'm losing in Plat, this means something else is wrong and it CANNOT be me." For someone who believes they're just a rusty challenger that can easily climb back, to admit that they're really low diamond is extremely difficult and requires a great amount of humility to do; especially if you have a coaching business, you're streaming on twitch and doing all of this in the hopes of proving the haters wrong. It would've shown extreme character strength to take a step back and say "maybe some folks who criticized me had a point and I'm not as good as I thought I was".
After 8 years playing league, it's tough to find good educational videos that are actually interesting and have something to teach me, most videos are always about stuff i already know, but this one i could stay here for hours pinpointing every little thing i agree or disagree and why, and this is what league at the highest level is, a debate of ideas, so i'll be looking forward for more content.
This logic isn't applied anywhere else in life. Just imagine it: It's a new year for chess, guys, so Magnus is gonna go and compete at this local school tournament lol
Exactly! My mom is gonna race max verstappen in her SUV with him in his f1 car. Literally no difference between that and a new player playing vs faker.
Magnus crushes the dreams of every child in the tournament, while they're all sobbing and holding their mommies, Magnus just walks up behind them, kicks them in the face, and says, "The chess speaks for itself"
Wow. Watched start to finish and that was excellently done. Didn't come across as bragging on your part or dogging on Neace's. Just an excellent breakdown that explicitly shows how much you both care about the game and the players at every level.
I dont know if you guys read comments, but thank you for a great time and reminding me what was once a core mentality of mine, to always think about what further you can do. I'll be checking out your channel for further Agurin and other high elo analyses! I loved part 7.
one thing very important to mention is that neace is pretty much ignoring his own advice during his climb, he's playing full tilt and forgetting his own coaching
2:42:28 def just his base understanding. I am grateful to see you gentlemen break down these vods because my bronze brain felt like an orphan getting seconds. Nourished and educated. Thank you.
Love that Neace flames you guys for being from OCE challenger, yet will simultaneously defend LAN challenger since that's the only region he ever got it in. He'll only vaguely allude to that being the only server he hit challenger. Exact example for the point that keeps reoccurring of him only defending the point at hand while contradicting himself before. He'll say he doesn't wanna climb on his one trick until he decides to pull out the Trynd. When it stops working and he loses 10 in a row, he says that's not how he wants to climb.
I love how positive you two are for this community. Neace had a similar outlook and such, but kind of lost himself once he began the ''Korea climb'' and let everyone online pressure him in having to prove himself.
I hope if he feels destroyed or humiliated its in a positive way where he decides to be better because I think its coming from a genuine place of hoping they can help him and therefore the community and not trying to make him feel like shit.
When a review of yourself is biased against you 100% of the time, you know it's biased. Can you find me a single point that neace made in the video where they agree with him, without them immediately saying "we're long term, he's short term"?
Great video, i love how you use a widepsread (counter-)example to turn it into content we can learn from ! ______ If i had to summarize it all boils down to the biases induced by the shift of position/perception from observing coach to active player : The difference in basic concepts between "Neace coaching" and "Neace attempting to climb" looks like the perfect case study of "Ease to judge external elements and difficulty to apply internally". There's also maybe come kind of "regressing expert" bias as he takes as granted that he is as an expert and it seemingly stops him from questionning the possibility of regression and his own performance. Neace has literally fallen into a natural human bias that plagues most leagues players (and comes back to bite when you forget it for a hot minute). You can't drive and judge the quality of your driving performance accurately at the very same time. To counter this it is sometimes advised to look at one's own replays so you shift your internal experience into an "exterior one" and make it easier to formulate insights in things to reinforce/adjust, all while keeping an open mind / keeping one's own ego in check. _____ I wonder how/if Neace will learn from the experience and adjust both his climbing and coaching or not, time will tell.
This is not the best place for this but you guys helped me break into masters and peak 200lp 🙏 thanks and very entertaining video to listen to while I work
Great video. The kinda sad thing is that he never said ''my mistake'' at all during the video. Never any sort of self-insight to his contribution in different situations. The biggest thing i've learned from watching the BBC is owning my mistakes. which is a core aspect that is very hard to accept at times. And it's understandable in a sense that most players dont even consider that a thing to consider with what most of the top content that get's consumed rarely any streamer/youtuber have that honesty I feel. I learned quite a few things from the review run-down you guys did as well which was really nice. and truthfully my biggest wish for the League community and how people talk/think about the game is to have a less negative attitude against the game. It's a great game, also a game I'll prob play for many years to come and i've played since season 2. I have friends that play off and on that consume streaming content regularly where I can tell the influence of their attitude leaks onto them when they're in-game. And it's kinda upsetting at times when I feel I know the ''better'' way to talk/think about the game. Some think how ''posetive'' my view points are are kinda delusional or whatever, so it's not always easy to get your point across. But it's like that with a lot of things ''You wont change if you dont want to change'' which leads into that people dont really know how bad these statements effects one another and how we view the game and outside of the game. Now; I hope more streamers and content creatores follow you two's foot steps. And makes some statements about how dangerous the negativity have gotten. That's whenever we'll feel a big change in the community. Keep up the great work. enjoying every BBC podcast, something I look forward to every week. o/
Coach curtis and co. coming in with a shockingly tasteful approach to the "neace" situation. Its a great review on a holistic level; and i think thats the point. The fact that it is neace doesnt matter; these principles apply to all of us
He's just coping so hard, thought he was better than he actually is. He got chall on a "easy" server, duo queing with a top tier jungler. And thought he could just hop on the most mechanically challenging servers and climb solo with a 60% W/R.
The funny thing about that marathon metaphor is that that is exactly what happens in marathons. They do in fact let the pros start at the front, because if they started randomly in the middle of the crowd they'd spend all their time having to overtake people. Everyone gets measured between start and finish line, but for people like Kipchoge every second counts. The top 1% are not in the same race as a rando like Neace, so they give them a chance to race against each other because there's no point in starting side by side. Just like if you are a rando you would mental boom if you spend the first 10k just being overtaken by god tier runners.
If Neace believes OCE is so bad, then he should 1 vs 1 Curtis and Nathan on stream over several rounds in any custom game mode. I have no doubt the Australian forces would prevail.
Y’all outdid yourselves on this one. Professionally handled all around, and you did an excellent job of conveying to the LOL community a positive alternative to the all to common negative mindsets. It’s refreshing to hear your mantra’s and approaches in direct comparison to the negative alternatives. It really shows how immature a lot of these false narratives are at their core. Thanks for your dedication to the community and the culture within it!
Can't believe i have only just found you guys!! I've gained more knowledge from this video then i have in any other. And because its so well explained I feel like its very digestible and i will retain more of it then most others i've seen. Keep up the great work boys! and thanks heaps
The marathon analogy is actually incorrect. Elite runners start in their own wave and usually the fastest of the elite runners are allowed to go up all the way to the line. Everyone understands that it's better for the competition if the fastest runners don't need to be weaving their way through slower runners. It would be annoying for those trying to win and probably a bit disheartening for those not trying to get low 2 hour times.
Curtis and Nathan, first I want to thank you for all you have done for the community, you are at the top of the league for a healthy approach to the game and its analysis. I greatly respect your work. However, even as a fan of your content and its quality, imo this video did not quite hit the mark I think you were aiming for in places. Not that it was bad or your arguments were fundamentally flawed, but even as someone sympathetic to your ideas and inclined to give a generous intepretation to them, I feel there were several sections where the points you made might have been conveyed more clearly and at times seemed a bit contradictory. I apologise if this seems pedantic or knit-picky. From the many congratulatory comments you have gotten, maybe this one perspective is insignificant, certainly I appreciate how difficult it is to articulate an argument of this complexity and length in real time and I respect the effort. Far better than anything I could produce in any case. However, I perceive you hold yourselves to a high standard, and are open to constructive criticism to help you continue to grow and produce great content. To give a few examples of areas that imo could have been better handled: Things like a race being that much of a worse analogy than others (and one you yourselves have used), or the conflation of game strategy with gimmick I thought could have used polish, but aren't really important. The statement that 'your rank is your level of play' feels like it could benefit from more careful usage, as it is just inconsistant with commonly observed scenarios where someone has e.g. played more games at season start, is in the process of climbing, or is 'smurfing'/'boosted'. TFBlade/Bo etc. playing on an account in Gold etc., are unlikely to be 'playing at a Gold level' and an alternative reason probably applies. I understand you apply this in a literal sense as a psychological tool to help regulate emotions in climbing, and that you shift it in a broader sense to mean that level of play is the approximate rank you stabilise at over time, but the distinction is not always made clear. Those who are not inclined to give you credit or allow for nuance might have an excuse to dismiss ideas that rest on incoherent premises. Regarding matching by MMR, it would be nice to get an expanded take. Getting matched with people of equal skill should, I think rightly, be the major goal of the game. However, when MMR is distinct from rank this could lead to a hypothetical scenario where a pool of e.g. Master level players get stuck in e.g. Platinum because they are matched by MMR and so legitimatly 'at their level of play', and so don't climb. Their current rank would poorly reflect their actual skill. In practice they eventually climb because of the probability of occasionally drawing against lower skill players that populate that rank bracket, but it would take many many more games than it intuitively should. This was smurfq. However, it is not illogical that various MMR gradients also might emerge in such a system, causing anyone playing at a certain level relative to what is expected for their rank to be matched with people performing similarly and so take a lot of games to climb higher. More players playing more games is the bottom line for league's continued growth, and a stated intention of the split1 and 2 season changes, and true in any kind of business model, and oh look smurfq is gone. Are sudden jumps in skill or doom tilt sprees or random chance the only possible causes for the win/loss streaks everyone experiences? Maybe so, maybe not. I am deeply concerned that Riot's manipulation of the matchmaking system to increase the number of games played and required to reach the rank that matches one's average level of play subverts common intuition and expectation, and is a major cause of distress and depression in a huge swathe of the game's playerbase. Neace's true level of play aside (I do feel low diamond looks good on him right now), his recently documented experiences seem like a fairly poignant example of the psychological impact. I would have been interested to hear you reflect on or debunk this in more depth. I wish Neace the best in his climb, and have been disappointed to see him doing all the things you rightly call out in this video. I would encourage you to reach out to Neace privately regarding your intent with this kind of content as a courtesy to a collegue (if you have not already done so). From what I have seen, he does consider it an attack, measured and mature though your content is. It is fine, and perhaps desirable, to maintain a distinction between your brands of coaching, but it would be a shame if bad-blood were to emerge over this. Best wishes.
I mostly agree with the advice of not champ swapping all the time, but as a jungler when your role gets nerfed massively, followed up with champion specific nerfs to your champ pool it hurts a lot. I'd rather just swap to my secondary role of ADC than stick to being miserable while jungling. The role gets fucked over by massive overhauls to it's basic functoinalities that sometimes I just can't stand to even play it. Like now after the 13.20 changes jungle has become straight up unplayable to me.
Back in season 9-half of 12 I used to have a very toxic relationship with the game and have been repairing it slowly by watching your podcast and was a Saltu member for about 6 months last season. But with the start of this season however all my effort has degraded and I went back to having a shit relationship with the game and self sabotaging myself, right now in the season I have 70 matches played and 39% wr and have started perma crying about my shit team "bot diff" "tank meta" and all of those shit narratives. This video is a real wake up call for me. So thanks Nathan and Curtis, I want to continue trying to get back on track to my goal of diamond and I want to do it the right way.
![This Student Almost Ruined His $250 Coaching With His Attitude [Challenger Coaching Top]](/img/1.gif)
This video is an educational case study, exploring the habits and behaviors of a League player who has an unhealthy relationship with the game. A player that is ruining the ranked experience for themselves and others.
We felt a responsibility to make this video (following up from our original podcast episode 130) as Neace is a fellow coach and an individual with the most influential voice in the League help/improvement space, specifically for new players. For Neace’s sake and the entire community, this cannot continue. We already have a hard enough time as it is with misconceptions and false narratives that plague the league community. We don't need to add more fuel to the fire of the game we love.
What you will see is a compilation of the themes we have discussed across our 130 podcast episodes of SoloQ improvement such as; the importance of champion mastery, getting into the details, taking responsibility, being curious, asking HIGH quality questions, understanding how your mistakes impact the game and how to review your games properly. Having a true process towards your SoloQ.
Neace teaches us all what happens to your SoloQ journey (43% win rate) when you do the complete opposite AND has proven to us that the ranked and MMR system is working exactly as intended, contrary to his belief.
who the heck is this guy?
As much as i would like to full agree with you i can't. Neace is the perfect example of how the Ranking system in league is fucked. Neace is a player that's been Gm and Masters in NA many times. How did he obtain masters/gm? Duo abusing, dodging and abusing new account MMR gains. The reality is in the past he obtained ranks he wouldn't have otherwise obtain by actually playing solo and not abusing the algorithm.
He was better before (which is why he reached those ranks, statistically, he couldn’t cheat the system by more than a few hundred LPs). The reality is that NOW he’s not at that level anymore. Also, skill levels at ranks in last seasons =\= skill levels at ranks now.
Players have improved at a rate greater than the rate he’s improved.
You misunderstand me, i'm not saying he is held back. He hit Masters last season. Duo Queue and the new account MMR gains are inflated and can allow you to reach higher elo then deserved, the reality is he didn't deserve to hit GM in the past he was a mid diamond skilled player that abused Duo. Duo+new account MMR just screws up matchmaking because it takes 100s of games to correct. Duo was removed from masters+ for this reason, but it still plagues Gold-Diamond elo and makes it much harder to climb then it should be. If you're a plat player playing in Gold you're simply gonna lose a ton of your games because your duo is worse. I'm a for fun player that typically sits around plat 4, Climbing through gold for me is just a disgusting tilting nightmare every time i have to do it. Sure if i played like a Pro/Challenger player i could carry 80+% of my games anyways. But it still feels like shit when i turbo gap the enemy team JG make 1 big mistake midgame and lose them game despite how hard i won my role.
Also, side note I've been Challenger in TFT and even though Duo isn't really a thing the new account MMR gains inflation is also a thing in TFT and it's how i reached Challenger. I got stuck D1 on my original account because i struggled in diamond then improved, but my MMR was shit because i struggled so my LP gains were awful. Made a second account, hard smurfed in Silver-Diamond. So when i got back to D1 my LP gains were crazy and i easily made the cutoff for Set 1 Chall.
Ironically Neace used to state you should never blame teammates and always look at your own contribution to the game... then he does the opposite to his own advice in his own games.
hypocrisy is the norm and toxicity and mediocrity and moodiness and dishonest for most people :P.. see he's nothing special XD
bad habits from coaching terrible players
I'm not surprised he's become a bit unhinged after everyone is roasting him for his coaching ability and pricing. I know it's his doing and choice but honestly anyone would go even the slightest amount of crazy when the majority of the community from the game you play day in day out is talking negatively about you.
@@K0NQER understandable, yes. Excusable? No.
@@MichaelandthePiano exactly if he cracks and breaks you can't really solely blame it on the community but part of him aswell for his own actions not to mention he's a bit narcissistic so the way he plays is different from the wya he coach and they're both slide in a bad way
It always baffles me when I see how deluded the league community is. Half these players need therapists not coaches.
I think things would be a lot better if it was only half
I thought league was toxic back in the day but now its full of actual grown men with destroyed mentals, and the new young players are learning from these people. I blame People like Tarzaned personally lol
It's almost like the game is a negative influence on society and riot profits from it.
@@poguri27 They are, in fact, actively promoting it. The guys and gals at Riot do their best to keep you at your rank to keep you "grinding", so you play more and buy more skins. (At least broken down to it's core concept)
The entire point of a ranked system would be to see yourself improving with a tangible badge next to your name to share your journey with others.
Dunkey was right tho
Put Neace aside, I loved this comprehensive deep dive into player mindset and game analysis. You guys owned a sub
Welcome!
Yup.
@@BrokenByConcept You guys should criticize tarzaned next since he is just as toxic if not worse or will his name not bring you as much views?
@@urbanfrenzy6272 the thing with tarzaned is he is toxic but he acts more toxic now because its what his fans love from him i bet you off camera he is much less toxic as he does not have to sustain the character of calling out every mistake someone makes as them being shit
@@TonyBaloney213 thats just an assumption
I expected shitting on neace and i came out with one of the most informative and inspiring podcasts ever, this is mindset changer and big effort has put in it.
Glad to hear, Mohamed! This is exactly what we wanted our viewers to take away from this - Nathan
As someone who used to watch a lot of Neace videos for years and taken Neace coaching, his Korea climb has basically turned me off from his channel and content. The reason isn't because of his winrate. It's because every video he puts out now on Korea is basically him complaining and flaming people. And he breaks all of his own rules (small champ pool, responsibility, mute chat) and instead focuses on the exact opposite of what he used to teach. He spends so much time "discovering" and finding the most OP champ and saying oh you can't climb with this xyz when there are high elo players of every champ one tricking on every server. He also plays way too much and just loses all mental. He needs to take a step back and focus on the mental and stage 3 concepts first, get a small champ pool and stick to it and not change champs every week, and then focus on what is in his control. He will climb if he just does that.
Same! He's just been a toxic rage lord since he went to Korea and refuses to set aside his Ego to Improve and that's both not enjoyable nor informative content
I have the same opinion. I used to love consuming his content but this is really just turning me off and shedding a new light. And I watched and supported that dude a lot! There were many ways to go about this situation and this is just not it.
I’ve really enjoyed his videos and learned a decent amount but holy shit, this has been so disappointing.
I mean, I knew long before this that he wasn’t Challenger level but it didn’t matter as long as the advice was solid. But to double down and then do exactly what you’ve told everybody not to do. Especially for someone his age? Yeah, pretty brutal, man.
I used to watch him as well, but I stopped because I couldn’t stand how he treated some of his clients. Now that all of this stuff happened I am not likely to watch anything else from him in the future.
I disagree. I don't think he will climb past diamond even if he obeys his rules. He's just not the king of Macro and his micro isn't much above average
How do you guys only have 11k subscribers? You put out such high quality content its insane. Like you just put so much effort into this 2 hour plus video and basically making no money from it. Kudos to you both.
The mantra of the community isn't meant for the general public, it's for those who have come to realise they have or had a unhealthy relationship with the game and wish to change that. You just lost 95% of the playerbase right there.
Because most players don’t want to hear that they just suck
Bc this virgin shit
They are going to blow up soon... you can't put this type of quality content out without going somewhere
3 hours
I really appreciated this video. My biggest issue with the game is all mental, so hearing the points Neace makes resonates with me, and having someone to counter that and push it back the other way is healthy. I had to take a hard look back at myself and see that I am my own worst enemy with the game. When I am in it I dominate my games and carry, when my mental goes though I struggle to make a difference. Its so easy to get lost in feeling like you have no agency even if a month or two ago you felt like you were the reason your team won. Thanks for the awesome reminder!
Awesome to hear that you were able to reflect on your own journey and relationship with the game. Keep at it Caleb!
This is so refreshing. I'm so sick and tired of friends and the large league community in general of complaining and crying about their team being the only issue. It's such a loser and victim mentality and goes to show people want to be victims so badly but don't want to get out of the hole with actual solutions.
This even happens in 1v1 games like fighting games, Only some players realize that it is a fight against yourself and self reflection and learning, Not some personal ''everyone else is against me'' thing
@@Redcloudsrocks most competitive games have this I find unfortunately League has become a meme and gotten a bad wrap
I mean I see you but tbh what can you do if you leave lane with let's say 7 kills and 3 deaths but bot lane left lane giving enemy Tristan a 15 kills. They've killed your team in a team fight and even when you try to split push Tristan a is always there to Def. It.
Above all else league is a team game. Becoming a better player individually will take you far in terms of your performance during a game, but it will only allow you to climb to a certain point, after that your team needs to be good or else your individual contribution doesn’t amount to enough for a win
@@JuSSayZ Improving your personal play can get you to challenger, as shown by the people that consistently climb to challenger. You can't really focus on team play until you're literally at the pro level, because the ladder is always going to be inherently self-focused, since you can't play with a predetermined team in soloq. There's probably an argument to be made about climbing as a team in flex queue, but focusing on yourself is the single best way to climb soloq. Everyone is gonna get teammates that have bad games, but you have to realize that across hundreds to thousands of games, you are the only consistent factor in your games, given that you aren't duoing.
Dude I started watching video like: there's no way I will watch lol breakdown for 3h. I've watch it all paying more attention than to a Marvel movie. Now I want another 3h like this! You guys are incredible at this, please do more. Now this is a channel that promotes League as it should be promoted! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed the video! - Nathan
I've said this before in a reddit thread, but I was coached by neace twice and realised I felt conflicted the second time since I learned a lot less... It got worse when I expressed this publically, and then he took offense to this and wanted to take credit for my elo gains from 2 live sessions, I feel so connected to this video. I've learned countless more things from you two and plenty of other coaches as well but equally I've come to learn that the point about whatever elo you are right NOW is the one you deserve is just so true.
i recognize your name from the reddit post haha weird coincidence i would see this again after like a whole year
So gross for a coach or mentor or professor or leader, etc to claim the rewards or benefits achieved by those they help guide under them
Did it actually cost $700?
-$700 pepelaugh
which pubilc coaches do you recommend?
I'm so happy that you made this video. I'm a school teacher, I have commented on Neace's attitude and pedagogical technique but he never seems to see them unfortunately.
As an educator, you have no idea how influential you are. And that is just in the classroom. We often joke that, after a while, each teacher's classes start to take after the teacher slightly (which we noticed after covering each other's classes) - serious teachers tend to produce hard-working students, philosophical teachers often produce students who questions things....the other teachers said my class is really sarcastic (no idea why)
I just mean that the guy doesn't treat the responsibility he has with the respect it deserves. I'm not a high elo League player, but I do know people and teaching. And I know its influence. So thank you for this.
If only that were how league worked... most people don't see neace on RUclips and be like, wow this game looks fun, I'll try it AS A RESULT of watching neace. They play league, don't win as much as they'd like, and look for reasons and/or help. Neace is very popular help. People already noticed the clear restraints put on them by teammates and matchmaking, and neace is only another person with fairly average pattern recognition. You're blaming neace for an opinion already held by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people before we even know who neace is.
On a related note, influencers also have a lot of sway in their audience. Streamers that represent the game they're playing usually breeds the leading mindset of said games.
For League, it's obvious that the most popular way to play it is being toxic and intentionally throwing games to satisfy the ego because the biggest streamers do it too. In the eyes of the kids who copy these streamers, it's okay to ruin the experience of others' in order to enrich your own.
I guess that's the downside of self-made influencers being so young. They don't understand the responsibility they have in their roles and the consequences that can occur when they misuse that responsibility.
@@TheBigSak69hundreds of thousands of people want to blame their teammates, they look to Neace for justification since he's a coach and self proclaimed king of macro, and Neace just confirms their bias in believing that it's the game's fault.
When you have a large following, you have to be mindful of what you say and do, because, after all, with great power comes great responsibility.
I just wanted to thank you for this bbc video, it’s been unironically the most enjoyable episode ever. Not because it’s about shitting on neace, but rather because it taught me how interesting and enjoyable the process of reviewing truly can be. I have never reviewed a single game in my life, but this inspired me to actually adopt mla and saltu’s learning cycle. Thank you for rekindling my passion for league. Love from Japan, 3am
Watching your replays will tell you stuff you can't learn in 10k hours because it's totally different to sit there and just learn instead of also playing, you can also see huge weaknesses in your play that were hard to see at the time.
bbc?
Unfortunately the japan server kind of sucks haha
@@mysticflow467 Broken By Concept
What is mla learning cycle
The funniest thing about the marathon analogy at 38:00 is that in pretty much every single form of racing, there is a process called qualification by which they do take the best racers and put them in the front, and the worst racers and put them in the back. This is often done using seeding based on previous results, for similar reasons to why League does it.
His analogy isn't even just bad, it's actually referencing a system that does exactly what he's saying he doesn't want.
In marathon events the starts are based on your expected completion time. So the elite start first. It avoid the faster runners being bottlenecked by a mass of slower ones…
Idk I do think that his analogy does make sense. If you play in high elo you will see that a lot players are way worse than the others. There is a huge difference in skill level and the main reasons are the quantity of games, having breaks and ranks in previous seasons. In the long run hard reset surely would be good for the game.
@@peterpeterson3385 i'm hardstuck bronze but no
@@peterpeterson3385 all a hard reset would do is create a super smurf situation at the start of the season. pls explain to me why players like tf blade, should have to vs someone who is hardstuck bronze for the last 3 years at the start of the season? It literally makes no sense. and the results will be the same. the top players will still be the top players, generally speaking. you cant hide from your mmr. you have the mmr you have for a reason. tfblade gains 45lp per win on a new account for a reason, because until he starts hitting diamond, he usually goes 40/5.
@@Simon-nv5zj Yes, it would do that. However, it won't last forever and after it is done it will be healthy for the game. Tell me one good reason why it would not be a good thing in a long run?
I really feel for Neace you can tell the pressure he feels, that he has put himself under, is a lot. He is in a situation where he feels the need to justify his ability as a coach by performing well as a player. Neace has played the game for a long time and knows a lot about what each champion does, and the game itself. For some reason, it seems to me he isn't genuinely curious anymore about getting into the details with the fundamentals of the game. He is too concerned with trying to prove himself. Just because you know something doesn't mean that you will consistently, quickly, and cleanly be able to evaluate and execute on it. Or be able to accurately assess out of multiple important options/factors which is the highest percentage/most important. It's like Neace is trying to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders whereas if he were to just let go, embrace his level of play, by default take responsibility for what happens in the game, and focus on the process he could let that weight off his shoulders. He would feel so much better for it and actually have fun learning, teaching, and playing the game. It doesn't matter if you win or lose, what matters is the quality of your decisions, your learning, and the quality of a role model you are for the community. At the end of the day, Neace could be rank 1 and if he was spreading the same toxic narratives to the community, the people taking learning from him would get worse, not better. Thank you Nathan and Curtis I started playing the game halfway through last year and thanks to you guys I love the game so much, see you in your coaching programs sometime in the future.
No hate but he needs a psychologyst. He is 1 word behind from getting deleted on twitch. Also his clickbaits at yt could sometime get a back lash and he even didnt care ro ruin his whole carrier and his members only for his ego and this absurd idea of being good cause hitting challenger. Not rank 1. Only challenger which he never hitted even with smurf duoq and on a not so special server. He literally needs professional help.
again. No hate. He is out of controling himself.
@@Souls7908 his recent video titles are ironic since now he only gets “hater” views or his channel wont survive by the end of the year. If he posted any normal title nowdays nobody would give a shit they only care about his downfall and thats his only merit to get views now. His channel is so far gone and he wont be able to fix it in the future.
@@rosettaaraara6633 why u believe in those based bs. Why so much people are not able to understand how "hater" works.
Dude. Again. Most of his hater were Fans of him. Haters are not interest in his suffer they want that he realizes that he is wrong.
They want an believable excuse from him for every of his lie.
it's ego man, fuks you up hard if you don't keep it in check
he also needs to drop his prices lol. the biggest point against him is that is the price : performance ratio. 350 bucks for a 1 hour session is crazy.
This is the most helpful league video I've seen... ever... hands down. There is such little league content around how to review and it's been a huge mystery to me. I can appreciate the critique of Neace and why you are doing it, but that's the secondary benefit of this video. A very distant second. This video is massive, ridiculously helpful piece of content that teaches how to review in addition to many jungle fundamentals - which lane to path towards and play towards, when to gank and not to, reading lane states (Look at the coming wave!), how to gank, jungle tempo, adapting to your teammates, playing champ identity in team fights, so many helpful nuggets in this video.
I haven't even watched 30 mins of the video yet, but you guys have earned a sub already. Analysing, going to the bottom of things, commenting, reflecting and helping the community get better is truly worthy. Thanks a lot!
Welcome to the BBC!
@@BrokenByConcept dont
Youre really helping not just neace but everybody in the league community with this banger video and you didnt even ask money for it like others pay for education like this. For me the "how to review effectively" part was the really best because if you learn how to spot your mistakes you already improved like +70%. Thank you!
Thanks for inspiring us to be better. League community needs more people like you that try to change the toxic mentality that most players have of flaming your teammates and blaming on others for your mistakes. Good video as always ❤
Pleb
@@messwithhelpy uh oh the Neace viewers are here to spread their narratives. Watch the whole video friend, I bet you'll learn something. League is a beautiful game that I love, get rid of those narratives and the joy that can come from not just playing the game, but really learning a hobby is unreplaceable.
This episode is very needed, Your guy's philosophy has truly made me love this game, even as a brand new player. Thank you for being the sole reason I decided to give this game a try and motivating me to be better not just at the game, but at life.
We're stoked to hear that! This is why we do the podcast.
Uninstall Now....Pleb
@@messwithhelpy uh oh the Neace viewers are here to spread their narratives. Watch the whole video friend, I bet you'll learn something. League is a beautiful game that I love, get rid of those narratives and the joy that can come from not just playing the game, but really learning a hobby is unreplaceable.
The biggest help was when someone I watched talked about the rule of thirds. 1/3 of the games you are going to lose no matter what you do, 1/3 of the games you will win no matter what you do, and 1/3 of the games are determined by your play. This helped my mental a lot because sometimes you are just going to lose games. No one wins them all
Except Spearshot. Even when Spearshot is losing, he’s winning.
You guys just went on another level, love you and what you do. You guys deserve WAAYY more attention. I can only hope with time more and more ppl will come. Imagine what game/community looked like if even half of the playerbase followed you and at least tried to follow your instructions. Amazing stuff, keep it up guys!
You two are absolute monks for not shitting on this toxic coach.
The same things that prevent Neace from getting better at the game are exactly the same things that prevent got him in this whole drama in the first place. Accountability. If he just admitted to never hitting challenger from the start, he woulda been fine. The mindset that made him dig further is the same mindset that's preventing his climb.
Neace is a coper. Dude's been on the copium since Ninja made him retire from Fortnite and come crawling back to League like the little worm he is. Dude legit probably got his boy to boost him to Challenger in LAN so he can flex that rank and swindle people with his scammy marketing ploys.
He's also so egotistical, and not to mention a prime case study of someone suffering from dunning kruger, that he cannot for the life of him understand how terrible he is-- he legit believes he's a Challenger level player and copes when he misplays and loses games. Anyone who actually knows they're bullshitting their rank wouldn't go to Korea, announce to the world their intentions there, and then stream it for everyone to see.
Neace is basically one of those crazy homeless bums that wear military uniforms as stolen valor in the hopes of getting cash, all the while actually believing in their delusions of grandeur.
He did hit challenger in one season. Just never did it again.
He did hit challenger though,... in South America hahaha which is like gold in korea hahaahaa
@@zeronothinghere9334 no, he hit it in south America lmaoooooooo
@@jakwanda9407 lan is latin american server my guy. aka south america
Finished the entire video. Fantastic video all around, very useful and informative.
Glad it was helpful!
The op gg review really helped me understand why i was stuck plat last season, i had the same situation as neace, i spam random champ until i start losing
We are glad it helped you understand your ranked journey better
The knowledge this podcast gave me was invaluable despite being an inconsistent player. Now I am top lane main playing regularly and using things I learned from your videos. Much more so than any other coaching video especially when I watched neace. I hope this channel and team remains around securely.
I started playing league last year. When I was looking for beginner content I eventually found Neace. His videos helped me understand so many fundamentals of League, and for that I appreciate Neace for putting out helpful content free of charge.
With all that being said, I have lost all respect for Neace having watched some of his climb in KR. The way he contradicts himself and does everything he preaches to his clients NOT to do is bizarre. I also never realised just how big his ego actually is, he even flames his own viewers and subscribers on stream if they tell Neace he made a bad play or give him item advice etc.. This climb has been very eye opening to both his community and league as a whole.
Also love your own coaching videos on your main channel Curtis, I just stumbled upon this podcast and it’s awesome. You’ve earned a sub guys, thanks a lot for putting so much effort into spreading an important message!
Hey Coach Curtis and Coach Nathan. I am not sure this is the place to say this but I wish to thank you. I have been a Neace fan for years. Started watching him when he was on twitch back in season 5 or 6. I enjoyed his content and his coachings and learned alot from them even though I never seemed to be able to implement what I have learned into my own game. I must admit. I am a hard stuck bronze player who has never made it to silver in my entire 9 seasons of play. I was a jungle main season 8-12 and have tried to switch to top in season 13. I have noticed Neace turning Toxic over the last few seasons and have seen the impact it has had on my own mental state. I like Neace believed I was a better player than I am and have blamed my teammates for me being stuck in bronze. A friend turned me to your videos and I must say I have started to change my outlook and how I approach each game. I am really enjoying your content and hope that you keep at it. Hopefully by implementing the tools you have provided o can start to see an improvement in my climb and how I approach each game.
good luck!
Have just found Curtis and by extension BBC and I have learned more in a week than I ever have playing league for almost a decade. You guys are so informative and as a fellow OCE player there is so much to learn from your videos
Great video guys. You really do your part to support the community and promote a healthy relationship with the game.
I am really glad I found this video and your channel. The way that you guys talk about the game in an even, objective way, always looking for learning opportunities and trying to be proactive and positive is sorely missing from a lot of this community and, from my experience, a lot of people in general. You guys and more the mindset that you represent is what I would like to see a lot more of. Neace and his mindset is what I would like to see less of.
I see this bad case of main character syndrome in him and others. If things aren't going well, it's always someone else's fault, and as you guys really put it well, people who think like he does don't stay 'curious' about learning more and growing. I've seen the same thing in other streamers, consistently blaming teammates for performance, just things outside of their control and not focusing on improving themselves. And I've even been tempted to think that myself during games, but I remember what you guys say and always try to let that go and look at my journey and personal improvement.
Anyways long story...still long, but I hope you guys keep doing what you're doing and hopefully injecting some better mentalities into the game we all (sometimes) love >.< Cheers
Thanks Brandon and welcome to the BBC podcast! - Nathan
This was made a long time ago so I don't expect it top have recent events in the video. I think Neace being hardstuck shows very much what he's been saying for years. Don't play ranked when life is knocking you down. When you are tilted play something else. The revelation that he was going through a divorce put his frustration and low rank into a new light. It wasn't Korea tat was beating him, it was life.
I just watched another coaches video about jungle and mental state was the very first point they made and emphasized just how overwhelmingly important this is. I think about my multiple returns to this game over the years and see a large coloration between my mental and my results. When I look for blame I find it easily and plateau or even drop because I'm no longer focused on internals that I can control.
Stop making excuses for him, hes shit at the game, a fraud, narcissist and a money hungry bum 😂
Nathan at minute 3: "This is gonna be about one hour"... boy was he wrong
I may have slightly underestimated that one 😂
Watched every single minute of it and i could't agree more, this video is an absoloute gold mine of treasure and all without being disrespectful. True coaches , true gents. Respect.
Thank you nathan and curtis, league community would be hopeless without you
The analysis and your attitudes and the joy you exude is really great to listen to and watch; thanks for working hard so we can enjoy your content.
Neace is not humble enough to say that he's at best a Diamond level coach and I think that's the main problem here his level of play is nowhere close to a challenger player.
100% right
Didn’t he actually end up in masters on Korea?
@@dainerduff-dings he did get master on korea however he completely one tricked tryndamere mid on a fresh account to get there so yes he did get master but by ONLY playing tryndamere mid so he is essentially a master tier tryndamere mid one trick but thats it NOT a multi role challenger player like he has said he is
What’s so funny to me is that when Neace says, “I’m getting punished for playing during preseason” what he really means is “I’m being punished for losing games that I think shouldn’t matter because it was a certain time of the year” 😂
😂😂😂😂
zelda fan?
Just finished watching, and it's over a year after it's upload, and it's as relevant now as ever. This is a timeless treasure for League knowledge, and a true inspiration for players out there to sort out the educational mistakes you can make in this game. It'll help you in real life too! It's not just about the positive mental attitude, it's the examination of why at each decision. This is a life skill! Well done.
Knowing Neace watches the BBC Podcast (or at least has watched some), there's a lot he could learn to help himself improve as a player and coach. I truly hope he decides to take this for motivation and not an attack to his ego; there's a lot he can learn from it. He is a big figure in the coaching community and has done a lot of good. If he takes this moment to better himself, he will not only become a better player himself, but make a big influence on the League community as a whole. It could be one of the most important steps to popularizing a positive relationship with the game we all love (even though most League players will say they hate it).
Unfortunately he did take it as an attack 😪 He just released a 30 min vid coping about this video, and saying that Curtis and Nathan are "just some OCE coaches" whose advice isnt actually helpful, and it's just all "hindsight coaching" or whatever. Disappointing that he couldnt get over his ego for just a little while and instead is choosing to go on the offensive towards everyone, regardless of how respectful to him they were.
When everyone first started making videos about him, I actually felt bad for Neace, but he keeps making it increasingly difficult to empathize with him and his permanent victim mindset. It's clear that Neace thinks that his mindset and opinions are infallible- he's no longer a student of the game, and I simply can't feel bad for someone with an ego like that.
34:22 Regarding the marathon analogy- the goal in League is not to beat others to the finish line, it’s to simply get to the finish line (unless you're actually racing someone to a rank). If you have the stamina and technique to complete the run, then you will slowly but surely get there. If you don’t then you’ll stay at your level until you improve. Has nothing to do with where the other people start.
„This is gonna be an hour, hour and a half maybe“ - pops out 3 hour banger episode
I just love your content guys. You helped me view League and soloQ as a healthy experience. A journey of self improvement. And I could get rid of all the toxic narratives around soloQ thanks to you
Massive props to Nathan and Curtis for their response to NEACE flame. I would have gotten into an EGO battle personally but they actually have the self control not to.
Where did neace flame them? Genuinely curious
@@fenneko7 at the time stamp, in NEACE's response to the BBC
How in the world has this channel not popped up in my numerous searches of league coaching over the years! This is exactly the message the league community needs! Myself included. I've dabble in ranked on and off for years and always end up frustrated when I think things are clicking and I'm getting better but then I get loss streak after loss streak and feel like I'm flailing around in the dark again trying to find something to blame for the sudden change besides myself. GREAT F"N WORK!
What’s Neace’s excuse about Tyler1 getting Grandmaster in Korea PLAYING FILL and within what a month of being there he climbed to GM before getting betted and wintraded. As a fan of neace once, Neace’s ego and criticism he blocks it all and thinks hes the best and its gross to see now. Neace needs to do better.
I have been watching Neace for many years, and over the last few months I have had to stop. His toxic mindset and lack of awareness have really pushed me away. I am very low elo, and his coaching videos have helped me a lot in the past, but watching him self destruct over the past several months has been disheartening. Thank you for the video. I am always trying to improve. Hopefully one day I will make my goal of Gold, but until then I will keep practicing and trying to get better at the game. thank you.
Oh, did not expect this content from you guys but I'm excited to watch it through. It's bound to be a banger
Thank you for making this video and I fully agree with the personal trainer analogy. I have a ton of friends that were all Neace fans (not that that’s bad in and of itself) who have been diehard defending his delusions that all of Korea is against him.
Ironically these same friends are climbing out of bronze for the first time with advice I’ve given them based on your guys’ videos!
Keep it up, you’re doing great.
In his reviews he only looks to the parts where he kinda looks okay and searches for mistakes by others. Real great vid love it ❤
Damn I stopped playing years ago because I had kids but I wish you guys were around, would have been a huge help to my mental when I was trying to learn about the game. Maybe I'll start playing again! Cheers, great content.
This was actually the best episode I've seen, the attitude you guys have is just really inspiring and makes the game more enjoyable to me. We need more positive content.
I don't understand how Neace doesn't understand that your MMR is basically an exact representation of your skill at league. He treats it like it's this abstract metric that can't be controlled. If he complains about his MMR getting lower, how does he not put 2+2 together that his games are getting easier? If you lower your MMR in preseason, you should have a higher winrate when the season starts. He says he's getting punished for playing, when in reality, he's getting punished for playing badly. In the end, with enough games played, you always end up where you belong, there are no excuses.
I noted this too. How can he say "omg isnt it unfair that TF blade is so much higher LP than me even if we both win 10 games" when TF blades games are versus league pros and some of the best players in the world while Neace are against platinum shitters like me.
@@erikkarlsson6839 😆😆
MMR isnt a direct representation of your skill in this game at all you people are brainwashed. Look at other 5v5 games and you quickly realize how broken league matchmaking system is. have an old account cant leave bronze but new account is sitting pretty in plat.
@@Malix2238 There is no way you can’t leave Bronze if you’re capable of hitting Plat. I’m in Plat and games are incredibly easy to carry until maybe mid Gold. Bronze-Silver players comparatively are awful.
@@kylemurray3526 Rather you believe me a not is irrelevant, the game has changed drastically from previous seasons and your ability to climb from low elo without high LP gains is based entirely on champion pool. Thats why boosters use specific champions. Its still a 5v5 game and not all champions can 1v5. This game's matchmaking is a joke and you realize this the minute you play other games.
love the messages you spread in your videos, been consistently watching for a while but never fully embraced solid reviewing/ not playing duo. I lost EVERY placement game this season, thus the game is telling me to get into the details so I can get back to climbing. keep up the good work chaps.
Get into the details Teddy!
Youre admitting that you lost all 10 placements as pure result of yourself? Or in other words, you are actual shit and willing to admit it?
@@TheBigSak69 i don't think it takes much critical thinking to realise that 10 losses is not a result of me alone. Some games i played well but still lose and that's fine
The issue with Neace is really not that deep. He is simply a Masters-tier player that is in denial. I've played against him multiple times over the years, and his skill level is just not high enough to warrant him saying he is high elo, much less coaching anything above diamond. Anecdotally, I had a harder time laning against RTO, Geronimo, Chimp, and certainly streamers like Adrian than Neace. The only times he even sniffed high elo was when he duo abused to GM, otherwise I'd say hes more of a mid-elo player. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that at the moment, when not on trynd or TF, he likely has regressed to the level of an NA mid-diamond player.
While it's true the KR server is hard and him switching to jungle in a new season/streaming/tilting has hurt his gameplay, he clearly does not belong anywhere near high elo, but again his ego and brand can't handle that reality. His negativity reminds me of what happens when you are just chasing wins and not trying to improve or enjoy the game at all.
Its sad to see the contrast between his old content and what he has become, but unfortunately I can't see him taking any of the criticism to heart, because from what I've seen, ironically, he is incapable of any self-awareness and thus, not coachable.
Thank you so much guys, i developed some bad habbits again over the preseason, but after watching this i recognized i lost track of my goal of improving overall great video. I dont watch Neace but you guys talking about this made it so clear what im supposed to do now. I hope i can be a better part of the lol player base again.
Thanks for sharing and we are happy to help! This is why we do the podcast - Nathan
oh boy, this is gonna be good 😂
Hi also the problem guy, how you been?
🤣🤣🤣, bruhh anything neace related content where he is exposed is so entertaining. Because he is by far the most delusional being
Love the podcast guys. Keep up the great work!
Btw: Agurin actually watched the vod of Neace reviewing him and himself said that Neace did not learn anything proper from him.
About the Malrang invade: Agurin didnt care because a) He knows how Malrang plays and b) Malrang didnt know where agurin started to he would've had to flip his invade and pro players dont really do this.
Neace recorded a response to this video, without even watching it and having his editor with him agreeing with what Neace says. And that was 30 min of pure narcissism and denying the reality
No surprise there really
Really good Video that kind of breaks down what mental pitfalls to avoid. Also I was genuinely bummed that we couldnt watch that Agurin game, It blew my mind that he actually just stopped there.
When you are iron/bronze and have like 5 games in a row where either bot or jng type salty bs then start greifing the game/going afk its one of the worst feelings so i can get the whole "game is coinflip" id like to atleast see my second wave of minions before i no longer have a team
enemy team might have same inters or afk players next game or even in that same game. I have seen some wild shit in iron happen even team with 2 ppl afk still winning 3V5
@@SmallPotato2313
To win that 3v5 is so awsome 😅 happend to me maybe 3-4 Times since i started playing.
@@christopherronn8564 true it feels very good 😂
This Chanel feels so refreshing
“These former pro players play on the worst region in the world but still get respect. I don’t get it.”
I've recently injured myself and have decided I'm gonna start playing League again to deal with my frustration not being able to be active. This video is the perfect prelude to ensure I begin playing with the best mindset. You guys rock
Neace, while he is a bad coach, is honestly 100% right. Your opinions are all about improvement on yourself. It doesn't matter how you improve, if you can just be #1 from the beginning and the end with a 10% winrate. It doesn't matter how you put it, if you do the marathon example, Neace wins the entire argument. End of story. You CLAIM it fixes in a week, but it doesn't. It never fixes. MMR is the sole determining rank factor in the game. MMR single handedly determines everything. Nothing else is important, your mmr vs theirs.
It is entirely about you hating Neace. You hate the message that "LP and rank are determined by MMR which is not started on the same foot." That is Neaces argument. Your argument is, ranked resets are pointless, then why have them at all? They offer NOTHING at all. Grind based on your long term understanding and examples means the #1 players will always be the #1 players long term, so why EVER have a reset. There is NO reason to reset bar nothing. The grinder will always end #1 at the end right?? The grind and speed of games determines #1 only early in right???? Then why reset ever.
Next. Players have been banned for abusing the normals exploit of 5 manning in normals. Then getting arbitrarily large mmr in ranked. It was insanely problematic and pros claimed it "ruined the ranked ladder" why does it matter then? Why should rito have cared? Why were pros upset if "skill and improvement" are all that matter? The pros that exploited that didn't massively improve right? Riot wouldn't ban or punish dodge spammers if it wasn't problematic. There is no reason to not dodge spam bad games like Dopa and Tf did during their bad matches. Their is no reason to not have 10 accounts and abuse the dodge system. Its far easier to get 10 accounts via dodging higher elo than 1 ESPECIALLY new accounts or old high mmr accounts or exploited accounts. MMR boosters wouldn't exist or be punishable if climbing wasn't so biased. Professional chess players wouldn't be investigated for suspicious cheating if they thought MMR would correct it. You will just ignore/ban this post and ignore the issue as your careers and money is entirely on the line. The fact is, I climbed higher on alt accounts than main. I won 100% of my high elo account games but didn't climb to said elo on my main over hundreds of games. It is SO DISPRESPECTFUL to start way ahead of others, and to claim to be the BEST LUX in the world if you only play 1 out of 4 matched games with a 60% winrate vs someone who wins 56% every game they get qued for.
Dodges. Mmr exploits. Duo quing. Wintrading. Boosting all have ruined the games integrity. I have learned in my games that off meta, such as yuumi on release, even if they are pick and ban in pro play, and brokenly op, will net you a 36% winrate on average in low elo. You will be flamed verbally abused and inted on hate speeched out of games etc before lvl 3. Cowsep had to deal with racism over in korea. Rank is not 100% ingame skill based anymore. I should NOT have a 100% winrate over 10 games in diamond but not climb out of gold with the SAME EXACT CHAMPION if ranked was accurate.
I Dislike Neace as he is a terrible coach overall. He is overly toxic, doesn't describe the problem, but this is 100% correct.
I have no real bias against NEACE and in my opinion he is very incorrect (as are you). :
1) "If you can be #1 from the beginning and the end with a 10% win rate"
- This never happened. The ranked reset is actually beneficial in preventing this.
2) "Your argument is, ranked resets are pointless, then why have them at all?
-The ranked reset mostly reflects the fact that the game is always changing a little. It also gives players a bit of new season optimism. We can technically remove it, but players like it, and it brings many players back to the game so that they may once more prove themselves worthy of their previous achievements.
3) "Players have been banned for abusing the normals exploit of 5 manning in normals"
- Ok so in the short-term, that was an issue, and in the long term, problem solved? The goal of that system was to accelerate the rank of smurfs and skilled players a bit so they don't pick on silvers. They should probably just put a cap on it or something lol.
4) "Riot wouldn't ban or punish dodge spammers if it wasn't problematic. "
- It is problematic, but not for the posterity of the ladder. It's problematic because if a guy has a poor win rate no one wants to take a chance on him so he's just not even allowed to play the game. People like Dopa aren't going to fail to get to high ELO if they play with bad players, it will just take more games. Instead of getting the account to masters in 80 games maybe it now takes Dopa 100 games or 120 games. If you are ethically playing the game this difference should not matter much.
5) "Dodges. Mmr exploits. Duo quing. Wintrading. Boosting all have ruined the games integrity."
- There is no 'perfect' meritocracy. Even capitalism in the real world is flawed. People often make millions of dollars by doing crime. It is likely true that in Masters+ there exists some number of people who use hacks, abuse exploits or take performance enhancing drugs. These things DO challenge the integrity of the ladder, but Riot attempts to address them and the important thing is that if the overwhelming majority of players approach the ladder with integrity then the overwhelming majority of the results will be fair. That's largely why they promote integrity and long-term thinking on this channel.
This really opened my eyes.. wow.
Real life is like ranked solo queue
thank you so much for this video.
Greatly thanks to your podcast, I went from a frustrated Silver stuck to Gold enjoying the game.
I will not rest until either neace realizes he is going insane or every last one of his viewers do
a lot of energy for something that doesn't affect you
If you just otp Jax, you'll get to challenger just like me. That'll be $350.
I think you guys laid it out clearly here, but it's so obvious that his mentality going into the challenge was "I'm master and can easily get challenger. If I'm losing in Plat, this means something else is wrong and it CANNOT be me." For someone who believes they're just a rusty challenger that can easily climb back, to admit that they're really low diamond is extremely difficult and requires a great amount of humility to do; especially if you have a coaching business, you're streaming on twitch and doing all of this in the hopes of proving the haters wrong. It would've shown extreme character strength to take a step back and say "maybe some folks who criticized me had a point and I'm not as good as I thought I was".
After 8 years playing league, it's tough to find good educational videos that are actually interesting and have something to teach me, most videos are always about stuff i already know, but this one i could stay here for hours pinpointing every little thing i agree or disagree and why, and this is what league at the highest level is, a debate of ideas, so i'll be looking forward for more content.
This logic isn't applied anywhere else in life. Just imagine it: It's a new year for chess, guys, so Magnus is gonna go and compete at this local school tournament lol
Exactly! My mom is gonna race max verstappen in her SUV with him in his f1 car. Literally no difference between that and a new player playing vs faker.
Magnus crushes the dreams of every child in the tournament, while they're all sobbing and holding their mommies, Magnus just walks up behind them, kicks them in the face, and says, "The chess speaks for itself"
Wow. Watched start to finish and that was excellently done. Didn't come across as bragging on your part or dogging on Neace's. Just an excellent breakdown that explicitly shows how much you both care about the game and the players at every level.
That Agurin guy sure likes terrorizing laners.
I dont know if you guys read comments, but thank you for a great time and reminding me what was once a core mentality of mine, to always think about what further you can do. I'll be checking out your channel for further Agurin and other high elo analyses! I loved part 7.
one thing very important to mention is that neace is pretty much ignoring his own advice during his climb, he's playing full tilt and forgetting his own coaching
Pretty much?! It's like he is doing a speedrun to hit every single point in contradicting his own advice/coaching.
2:42:28 def just his base understanding. I am grateful to see you gentlemen break down these vods because my bronze brain felt like an orphan getting seconds. Nourished and educated. Thank you.
Love that Neace flames you guys for being from OCE challenger, yet will simultaneously defend LAN challenger since that's the only region he ever got it in. He'll only vaguely allude to that being the only server he hit challenger. Exact example for the point that keeps reoccurring of him only defending the point at hand while contradicting himself before.
He'll say he doesn't wanna climb on his one trick until he decides to pull out the Trynd. When it stops working and he loses 10 in a row, he says that's not how he wants to climb.
Neace stuck in Plat KR
Incursio OCE Challenger kat otp who recently went to EUW to get Chall is now GM 😂
I love how positive you two are for this community. Neace had a similar outlook and such, but kind of lost himself once he began the ''Korea climb'' and let everyone online pressure him in having to prove himself.
If I were Neace I’d feel so destroyed/humiliated after watching even a fraction of this.
I hope if he feels destroyed or humiliated its in a positive way where he decides to be better because I think its coming from a genuine place of hoping they can help him and therefore the community and not trying to make him feel like shit.
When a review of yourself is biased against you 100% of the time, you know it's biased. Can you find me a single point that neace made in the video where they agree with him, without them immediately saying "we're long term, he's short term"?
Good
@@TheBigSak69 he needs this wake up call
Great video, i love how you use a widepsread (counter-)example to turn it into content we can learn from !
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If i had to summarize it all boils down to the biases induced by the shift of position/perception from observing coach to active player :
The difference in basic concepts between "Neace coaching" and "Neace attempting to climb" looks like the perfect case study of "Ease to judge external elements and difficulty to apply internally". There's also maybe come kind of "regressing expert" bias as he takes as granted that he is as an expert and it seemingly stops him from questionning the possibility of regression and his own performance.
Neace has literally fallen into a natural human bias that plagues most leagues players (and comes back to bite when you forget it for a hot minute).
You can't drive and judge the quality of your driving performance accurately at the very same time.
To counter this it is sometimes advised to look at one's own replays so you shift your internal experience into an "exterior one" and make it easier to formulate insights in things to reinforce/adjust, all while keeping an open mind / keeping one's own ego in check.
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I wonder how/if Neace will learn from the experience and adjust both his climbing and coaching or not, time will tell.
This is not the best place for this but you guys helped me break into masters and peak 200lp 🙏 thanks and very entertaining video to listen to while I work
thanks for the video, awesome as always
So happy you touched on this, I like Neace but man has he lost himself in all this bullshit. I made a similar video mentioning this a week ago.
Can’t remember the last time I was this excited for a video. What a content drop to wake up to.
Great video. The kinda sad thing is that he never said ''my mistake'' at all during the video. Never any sort of self-insight to his contribution in different situations. The biggest thing i've learned from watching the BBC is owning my mistakes. which is a core aspect that is very hard to accept at times. And it's understandable in a sense that most players dont even consider that a thing to consider with what most of the top content that get's consumed rarely any streamer/youtuber have that honesty I feel.
I learned quite a few things from the review run-down you guys did as well which was really nice.
and truthfully my biggest wish for the League community and how people talk/think about the game is to have a less negative attitude against the game. It's a great game, also a game I'll prob play for many years to come and i've played since season 2. I have friends that play off and on that consume streaming content regularly where I can tell the influence of their attitude leaks onto them when they're in-game. And it's kinda upsetting at times when I feel I know the ''better'' way to talk/think about the game. Some think how ''posetive'' my view points are are kinda delusional or whatever, so it's not always easy to get your point across. But it's like that with a lot of things ''You wont change if you dont want to change'' which leads into that people dont really know how bad these statements effects one another and how we view the game and outside of the game.
Now; I hope more streamers and content creatores follow you two's foot steps. And makes some statements about how dangerous the negativity have gotten. That's whenever we'll feel a big change in the community.
Keep up the great work. enjoying every BBC podcast, something I look forward to every week. o/
Coach curtis and co. coming in with a shockingly tasteful approach to the "neace" situation. Its a great review on a holistic level; and i think thats the point. The fact that it is neace doesnt matter; these principles apply to all of us
He's just coping so hard, thought he was better than he actually is. He got chall on a "easy" server, duo queing with a top tier jungler. And thought he could just hop on the most mechanically challenging servers and climb solo with a 60% W/R.
The funny thing about that marathon metaphor is that that is exactly what happens in marathons. They do in fact let the pros start at the front, because if they started randomly in the middle of the crowd they'd spend all their time having to overtake people.
Everyone gets measured between start and finish line, but for people like Kipchoge every second counts. The top 1% are not in the same race as a rando like Neace, so they give them a chance to race against each other because there's no point in starting side by side. Just like if you are a rando you would mental boom if you spend the first 10k just being overtaken by god tier runners.
Was thinking this exact same thing!
If Neace believes OCE is so bad, then he should 1 vs 1 Curtis and Nathan on stream over several rounds in any custom game mode. I have no doubt the Australian forces would prevail.
I have no doubts neace would fundementally lose to all of the OCE challengers he tossed stupid hate too lol
I love rewatching these Neace videos they just keep my mental very good whenever I feel like I want to blame my team
Y’all outdid yourselves on this one. Professionally handled all around, and you did an excellent job of conveying to the LOL community a positive alternative to the all to common negative mindsets. It’s refreshing to hear your mantra’s and approaches in direct comparison to the negative alternatives. It really shows how immature a lot of these false narratives are at their core. Thanks for your dedication to the community and the culture within it!
Can't believe i have only just found you guys!! I've gained more knowledge from this video then i have in any other. And because its so well explained I feel like its very digestible and i will retain more of it then most others i've seen. Keep up the great work boys! and thanks heaps
Great to hear!
The marathon analogy is actually incorrect. Elite runners start in their own wave and usually the fastest of the elite runners are allowed to go up all the way to the line. Everyone understands that it's better for the competition if the fastest runners don't need to be weaving their way through slower runners. It would be annoying for those trying to win and probably a bit disheartening for those not trying to get low 2 hour times.
Plus, the big marathons require you to have previously run certain times, that way you get marathons with elites, and marathons without elites.
Also, the disrespect towards Kipchoge. Kipchoge is not just the best marathon runner, his work ethic and life ethics are fantastic.
Curtis and Nathan, first I want to thank you for all you have done for the community, you are at the top of the league for a healthy approach to the game and its analysis. I greatly respect your work.
However, even as a fan of your content and its quality, imo this video did not quite hit the mark I think you were aiming for in places. Not that it was bad or your arguments were fundamentally flawed, but even as someone sympathetic to your ideas and inclined to give a generous intepretation to them, I feel there were several sections where the points you made might have been conveyed more clearly and at times seemed a bit contradictory. I apologise if this seems pedantic or knit-picky.
From the many congratulatory comments you have gotten, maybe this one perspective is insignificant, certainly I appreciate how difficult it is to articulate an argument of this complexity and length in real time and I respect the effort. Far better than anything I could produce in any case. However, I perceive you hold yourselves to a high standard, and are open to constructive criticism to help you continue to grow and produce great content.
To give a few examples of areas that imo could have been better handled:
Things like a race being that much of a worse analogy than others (and one you yourselves have used), or the conflation of game strategy with gimmick I thought could have used polish, but aren't really important.
The statement that 'your rank is your level of play' feels like it could benefit from more careful usage, as it is just inconsistant with commonly observed scenarios where someone has e.g. played more games at season start, is in the process of climbing, or is 'smurfing'/'boosted'. TFBlade/Bo etc. playing on an account in Gold etc., are unlikely to be 'playing at a Gold level' and an alternative reason probably applies. I understand you apply this in a literal sense as a psychological tool to help regulate emotions in climbing, and that you shift it in a broader sense to mean that level of play is the approximate rank you stabilise at over time, but the distinction is not always made clear. Those who are not inclined to give you credit or allow for nuance might have an excuse to dismiss ideas that rest on incoherent premises.
Regarding matching by MMR, it would be nice to get an expanded take. Getting matched with people of equal skill should, I think rightly, be the major goal of the game. However, when MMR is distinct from rank this could lead to a hypothetical scenario where a pool of e.g. Master level players get stuck in e.g. Platinum because they are matched by MMR and so legitimatly 'at their level of play', and so don't climb. Their current rank would poorly reflect their actual skill. In practice they eventually climb because of the probability of occasionally drawing against lower skill players that populate that rank bracket, but it would take many many more games than it intuitively should. This was smurfq.
However, it is not illogical that various MMR gradients also might emerge in such a system, causing anyone playing at a certain level relative to what is expected for their rank to be matched with people performing similarly and so take a lot of games to climb higher. More players playing more games is the bottom line for league's continued growth, and a stated intention of the split1 and 2 season changes, and true in any kind of business model, and oh look smurfq is gone. Are sudden jumps in skill or doom tilt sprees or random chance the only possible causes for the win/loss streaks everyone experiences? Maybe so, maybe not.
I am deeply concerned that Riot's manipulation of the matchmaking system to increase the number of games played and required to reach the rank that matches one's average level of play subverts common intuition and expectation, and is a major cause of distress and depression in a huge swathe of the game's playerbase. Neace's true level of play aside (I do feel low diamond looks good on him right now), his recently documented experiences seem like a fairly poignant example of the psychological impact. I would have been interested to hear you reflect on or debunk this in more depth.
I wish Neace the best in his climb, and have been disappointed to see him doing all the things you rightly call out in this video. I would encourage you to reach out to Neace privately regarding your intent with this kind of content as a courtesy to a collegue (if you have not already done so). From what I have seen, he does consider it an attack, measured and mature though your content is. It is fine, and perhaps desirable, to maintain a distinction between your brands of coaching, but it would be a shame if bad-blood were to emerge over this.
Best wishes.
Loved your one on phreak, will love this one too!
I mostly agree with the advice of not champ swapping all the time, but as a jungler when your role gets nerfed massively, followed up with champion specific nerfs to your champ pool it hurts a lot. I'd rather just swap to my secondary role of ADC than stick to being miserable while jungling. The role gets fucked over by massive overhauls to it's basic functoinalities that sometimes I just can't stand to even play it. Like now after the 13.20 changes jungle has become straight up unplayable to me.
Back in season 9-half of 12 I used to have a very toxic relationship with the game and have been repairing it slowly by watching your podcast and was a Saltu member for about 6 months last season. But with the start of this season however all my effort has degraded and I went back to having a shit relationship with the game and self sabotaging myself, right now in the season I have 70 matches played and 39% wr and have started perma crying about my shit team "bot diff" "tank meta" and all of those shit narratives.
This video is a real wake up call for me. So thanks Nathan and Curtis, I want to continue trying to get back on track to my goal of diamond and I want to do it the right way.
Good luck my friend! Im cheering for you and you can do it
Hell yeah dude this is awesome. Literally you are a person they made this video for! Stay on the path! 💪🏻