the scene with Spike and Dru walking up on that couple in the Bronze gives me CHILLS. just the thought of Spike going back to his old evil self, and Dru there with him ... *shudder*. love it!
The thing about Spike is, he was such a huge romantic before he was turned into a vampire. And from what I understand, you do keep those parts of your personality, even with the demon inside. So it's not such a surprise for him to fall in love with Buffy. He clearly loves strongly (look how he was with Drusilla, and his speech about love to Buffy and Angel -- he's a passionate guy). It's important to him, and I think he loves love. On the other hand... his behavior could also be called obsession. And that's just unhealthy, lol.
Interesting you say the humor feels british. Whedon did go to college in the UK and the main inspiration for the show was the US/UK co-produced series She-wolf of London
Crush is an important episode going forward. Spike's infatuation with Buffy now reaching crazy levels, stealing Buffy's clothing, and have Harmony (possibly the most entertaining character in the Buffyverse) dress up cosplaying as Buffy. We have the Domino effect here of Dawn crushing on Spike, Spike crushing on Buffy etc, and great comedy moment with Xander getting jealous about the fact that he is no longer Dawn's crush.
Spike has an okay relationship with Dawn and even Buffy's mom not because of Buffy. But just because they don't treat him like a thing so he is friendly with them in return. If you treat him good he can return it.
I believe an evil person or entity can change based on the environment they are in. If it’s healthy and loving, I think it’s very much possible for nurture to override nature no matter how “evil” that person/entity is. I think external influence is a massive deal. And I don’t think the “soul” has anything to do with it. I think of the “soul” as just an internal moral compass. The ability to know instinctively right from wrong. But that doesn’t mean that the person/entity always chooses right when it has a soul and wrong when it is soulless. If free will is something it’s capable of anyway, why does the soul ever need to come into the narrative? This is something I’m always going to question with Spike because he was showing he was capable of it before they went the other way with him and absolutely assassinated his character because of it.
@@Girl4Music yes, and we saw that vampires are different. It started with simple statement that all of them are monsters like Angelus was. Because 'no soul'. I think this soul element appeared only to integrate him into the team and start relationship with Buffy. Because if we l look at this regardless of it, soul doesn't save you from being a bad guy. Or it should mean that all people who do bad things are soulless. Anyway somewhere starting from Spike and Harmony we saw that no, not all vampires are just soulless monsters and nothing else so should be treated accordingly. Look at them, they are capable of human emotions, they can cooperate with other people. Spike is capable of compassion even if he likes the person. The show keeps the main vampires ideology and makes Buffy treat them this way. She is just a slayer so she slays. Meanwhile there is a parallel plot there. Which shows that Spike is way more than just some evil creature. And this conflicts with the main ideology. At some point secondary theory will come forward, s5, but eventually the main ideology will win later in s6. Will be pushed through. And regarding what you say about treatment I would say it this way, if you treat someone really bad, use violence and humiliate them, like it was in s6 from Buffy's side eventually you will get a bad guy. If you constantly repeat someone how awful they are, you will get what you say.
Yep, Dru killed everyone on the train. The doll was supposed to be a clue, a reference to Dru's dolls in Season 2. I liked the episode but honestly it just proves how much I prefer Spike and Dru together. They tried to have Dru do the hypnosis trick she did on Kendra to Buffy at the end, but I wish they had her say the first few lines before Spike saved Buffy
Mercedes McNab is SUCH an underrated performer. Really wish she'd return to acting, bc she is an amazing comedic actress. Season 1-3 did NOT do her justice, and she really shines throughout S5. Having a crush on James Marsters is perfectly normal :P Another actor who really should have appeared in more things in his prime. (I think maybe he was too short to be a leading man? Not every short king is as fortunate as Tom Cruise. Or maybe it was his music? Either way, robbed of a man with true charisma) I was so glad when I saw him in Runaways (even if the show wasn't that great) and even MORE made up when I heard he narrates the Dresden Files books (he's pretty damn good too, even if audiobooks aren't my favourite) And I really like that you're already picking up on the mixed signals Buffy sends. She's using him. He IS a monster without a conscience... but his obsession is doing something to him. Just as there is always something of the monster in Angel, there does seem to always be something of the man within the vampire.
Painful >< I've only watched a handful of interviews from him, but he does appear rather frank. But I suppose it's part of the craft. I do suspect politics (small p) plays a substantial role in the industry though.@@tananario23
Buffy and her crew remember a lot better than viewers do apparently exactly what kind of a monster Spike is. He wasn't just okay with it but was *gleeful* at the memory he was retelling Dawn of how he murdered an entire family and stalked a toddler before tearing that toddler apart with his bare hands. For fun. And he still thinks it was fun. Still enjoys the memory of tearing that little kid and the kid's family apart. Buffy can never see herself being with something like that, no matter how useful he might be to her. He's supernaturally strong, not just something that comes along every day, and has proven willing to be muscle for hire. They pay him money, he does things like fight or get info. It's a working relationship but it's certainly not a friendship. Buffy will never, ever trust Spike. He has no soul and would, at a moment's notice, sell out her and her friends and family if it serves him to do so. It's just that right now, Spike's obsession is Buffy so the things he does, all of the things he does, are based around, "would this action help me get to Buffy?" The problem, of course, is that his obsession is filtered through the lens of being soulless so he does things like kidnap her and threaten to murder her to those ends. And previously, it was "be nice to her and hit on her" and that failed. And before that it was "spy on her and give her info (about Riley)" and that failed. So he'll keep moving on to the next thing. Because, at his core, that's what Spike is and what his whole character is about: obsession. We saw in Fool For Love that he professed his LOVE for a girl who he had barely ever spoken to, spent every waking moment doting on her and pining over her and writing poetry when she didn't even know he existed. We saw in season 2/3 how he was obsessed with Drusilla, to the point of his entire plan for the first half of the season trying to cure her and the second half giving her gifts (the Judge) or going along with her plans even when he didn't want to (Acathla) until they were about to actually work. And season 3 with him falling apart with no purpose or direction in life at all, until he comes back and gets a purpose (Drusilla) and heads off to torture her. He has no goals or direction for himself beyond his obsession with others and generally being hedonistic and hurting people to get what he wants in the moment. Can't fully get into it because of spoilers, but that's what his character is about in the same way that Buffy is about bucking tradition to follow your own moral code and Willow is about finding confidence and self-esteem and Xander is about how to grow up and start figuring out how to be a better man after a traumatic home life. Spike is about what happens when you define yourself through your obsession with something external versus examining yourself and finding your own purpose. And his arc by the end of the Buffyverse is fantastic when viewed through that lens, so keep it in the back of your mind all the way til his last scene!
Lets keep in mind that THIS is what Spike sees as love. Torturing and hurting someone till they give him the attention he wants. Yes vampires can fall in love and even have a lot of passion but that's not all there is.
@BazingaIRanOutOfIdeas she literally and repeatedly told him to get lost. He kept pushing and with the trauma she's been through she finally was too weak to resist. How many times must she say no? He repeatedly ignored her no.
"Look at his little face" (Spike). I think that's a first. LOL! I think Buffy definitely has chemistry with Spike, which draws her to him, almost using the excuse of needing his assistance. She denies and dismisses her attraction because, well... he's Spike! But she never takes any opportunities to stake him. It's a tough place for Buffy to be in. Spike just feels passion, so he acts on it without thinking because, well... he's Spike!
Buffy has been Using Spike, repeatedly, for about as long as he's been chipped. Whether he's working with her, or working for her, they've spent a fair amount of time together. And it's so easy, sometimes, for some people (or vamps, I s'pose) to mistake attention for liking, and liking for affection - esp. when there's a hidden or latent yearning on the receiver's end. (Let that be a warning to some of you boys and girls ... 😈 !) So I think Dakara's got it right: mistakes were made on both sides. Buffy being oblivious to this dynamic; and Spike taking it way over the top, both because he's Spike, and because he can't quite imagine that he's capable of falling into a wish-fulfilling delusion. And this despite the fact that he once welcomed Dru turrning him so that he could become a ferocious creature, immune to the weakness that allowed him to pine for the stuck-up Cecily in Fool for Love. Poor sad William. 😥🙄
Yes, I agree with you. She is an ice queen with Spike, she likes to insult and humiliate him but when she has a problem she wants him to help her right away and she goes straight to him. Can she at least try to have some normal communication with him then? She pretends like she doesn't know him but she expects him to help her and do whatever she asks every damn time. That would be hard for me to treat someone in such a split way.
I think Buffy finds Spike convenient and powerful enough to protect Dawn or to solve problems but she is not cool with him being in love with her. It's complicated. Buffy does mislead him, she's not perfect and makes mistakes and that is why she's a fascinating relatable protagonist.
What Buffy does throughout the show with Riley and Spike is not even close to a "mistake". She intentionally leads both of them on and gaslights them when they call her out on it.
Posting my BUFFY REWATCH recap for ‘Crush’. May contain spoilers. Willow and Tara are talking about a test that they have to study for for one of their classes that they take together - presumably English since the assignment of study appears to be on the literature 'The Hunchback Of Notre Dame’. They are having a debate on Quasimodo’s unrequited love for Esmerelda, and Tara brings up the implications of a love not reciprocated to argue her point of view being that Quasimodo shouldn’t have ended up with Esmerelda, when Willow’s point of view is that of that he should have. I do love when the theme of the episode is foreshadowed early into it. See, the episode is called 'Crush’ and it’s primarily about Spike’s crush on Buffy, who at the moment is “chastised” by the chip in his head that prevents him from hurting civilians similiar to the way Quasimodo is “chastised” by his hunchback condition and his ugly “bumpy” facial features that prevents him from living amongst civilians who would only see him as a “monster”, that would hurt them, and not like a “man”. So the theme here is 'Man VS Monster’. Quasimodo is used as a metaphor for Spike’s character in this episode - and arguably for his entire redemption arc. His love for Buffy is so severely unreciprocated that he begins to force himself on her in very violating ways going forward in the show from this episode that ultimately leads to the physical force of rape/sexual assault. The scene in the previous episode, where he rehearses in front of 'mannequin Buffy’ in practice of giving Buffy a birthday gift, showed us that he felt some guilt for telling her about Riley’s nightly outings to that vampire “suckjob” den. It was a selfishly motivated act because it was in the effort to get Buffy to leave Riley and to get with him. But it never played out that way, and so Spike feels desperate times call for desperate measures. In this episode he harrases Buffy to get her to admit her feelings for him. A complication arises in Druscilla’s return to Sunnydale. Her intention? To get Spike back and revert him to the evil “monster” he once was before the government put that chip in his head. She succeeds in getting him to feed off humans again, and so now Spike has even less chance of being with Buffy. He goes as far as chaining her up in his crypt and threatens to kill Druscilla in a desperate attempt to prove to Buffy how serious he is about being with her and about how much he loves her - to which she shows no reaction to other than scorn. And so she should. It’s an extremely violating and exploitative act to coerce her to saying 'yes’ to feeling something through force and threats. Like Tara said about Quasimodo in her debate with Willow,… Spike had love for a woman who would never be able to love him back, and is indeed acting like the “monster” more than the “man”. Does he deserve Buffy? Does Buffy deserve him? At this point in the show, not at all. They are far too abusive to each other and any relationship that could develop from it would be doomed by it unless one of them would go to a drastic effort to end that abusiveness. BUFFY: “Oh… oh no. *Turns back to Spike* Are you out of your mind?” SPIKE: “It’s not so unusual. *Walks toward her* Two people… in the workplace… feelings develop.” BUFFY: “No! No, no, feelings do not develop. No feelings.” SPIKE: “You can’t deny it. There’s something between us.” BUFFY: “Loathing. Disgust.” SPIKE: “Heat. Desire.” BUFFY: “Please! Spike, you’re a vampire.” SPIKE: “Angel was a vampire.” BUFFY: “Angel was good!” SPIKE: “And I can be too. I’ve changed, Buffy.” BUFFY: “What, that chip in your head? That’s not change. That’s just… holding you back. You’re like a serial killer in prison!” SPIKE: “Women marry 'em all the time!” BUFFY: “Uhh!” SPIKE: *Realizing that’s not what he meant* “But I’m not… like that. Something’s happening to me. I can’t stop thinking about you. *Buffy turns away* And if that means turning my back on the whole "evil” thing-“ BUFFY: *Turns back* "You don’t know what you mean! You don’t know what feelings are!” SPIKE: *Offended* “I damn well do! I lie awake every night!” BUFFY: “You sleep during the day!” SPIKE: “Yeah, but… you are missing the point. This is real here. I love-” BUFFY: “Don’t! *She puts up a hand to stop him. He sighs* Don’t say it. *Spike stares at her* I’m going.” *She starts to walk toward the door again* SPIKE: “Oh, come on, we need to talk-” BUFFY: *Turns back* “We don’t need to do anything! Okay?! There is no 'we’! Understand?!” *She turns to leave* SPIKE: “Buffy.” *She opens the door and exits. Spike watches her go* Spike’s crush on Buffy has developed into an overwhelming obsession and he has now become dangerous in others ways than just in not being able to physically hurt her. Death and violence as the “monster” is all he knows, and therefore, he conflates and confuses it with love and passion as the “man”. He does not understand the difference between these emotions and experiences. But here’s the thing - neither does Buffy as far as her and relationships go. While she doesn’t reciprocate the love Spike has for her… She too is caught up in the conflation and confusion of emotions and experiences. So the theme of 'Crush’ is also 'Woman VS Slayer’. And the question has to be asked as Buffy is Esmerelda in this metaphor, and she does get chained up… Is she “chastised” too? Does being the Slayer prevent her from living like a woman just the same as it prevents Spike (Quasimodo) from living like a man? And is that why she cannot make love relationships work?
there is some friendship that grew a little ever since Spike couldn't hurt people anymore and started to help fighting demons and vampires. but the thing is with guys, friendship is never enough. as soon as a girl is a little bit nice to them, in their head it's like "maybe there could be more"
Just because she goes to Spike for help because he is the strongest one she knows doesn’t mean she’s his friend or she likes him. He’s a convenience for her and after seeing how psychotic his crush is towards her she had to put her foot down
It'd the sane reason she hasn't killed him even though she should - he's harmless. She views him the same as she views the Council. Buffy has never been 'friendly' with Spike.
I think Buffy was kind of viewing Spike (or trying to view Spike) as a combination of a harmless enemy and an informant that she pays or beats for help. But I agree they have developed a friendship and comfort with each other at this point that Buffy isn't really acknowledging. Him not having a soul is a really big deal for her though, because she kills vampires without souls, and Angel was "different" from Angelus because he had one. A vampire being able to love without a soul might break the world view she needs in some major ways.
@@russellward4624 Are there some issues in the way Buffy continues to view Spike as a monster even when he is helpful? Sure. But he actually doesn't have a soul, any conscience, of any sense of right or wrong, he still has fairly recently threatened to kill her, he has more than likely raped and killed his way through over the last century. Soooo... Is she wrong to try to maintain certain boundaries? In Buffy's eyes he's been "neutered" and she can trust him only to a limited extent, up to this point she thinks he helps because they pay him and she's not killing him. And Buffy will use whatever resources she has when dealing with the high stakes she does in every day life. But as far as she knows he still would try to kill her the moment his chip stopped working. And he's not exactly an innocent bystander in the toxicity of this relationship, when she turned him down he literally chained her up and tried to force her on threat of death to tell him he had a chance. I'm only going to talk about what has happened up till now to avoid spoilers, but Spike isn't exactly the poor "nice guy" with Buffy as the asshole here.
@ceceliam9014 but if he's so awful why does she trust him with her family? She's using him in a really crappy way. She tells him she trusts him and can count on him, how much she appreciated him protecting Dawn then when the danger is over she treats him terribly. Spike says a lot ofmthings but we all know he doesn't mean any of it.
@@russellward4624 Yes, we all have a great deal of awareness about what Spike does and doesn't mean because we've seen seasons 5-7 and because we see scenes of Spike that Buffy does not. Up until this episode there's no reason Buffy has to know Spike has reason to actually want to help her from his heart. She treats him like an informant and (currently) harmless enemy because it makes absolute sense that's a big part of what he is to her (though yes, I think there's some denial from her trying to keep those boundaries up at this point). And even in season 6 Buffy often repeats the belief that if you have no soul you can't really feel and you certainly can't love. And Buffy took her mom and sister to Spike because he was a safer option than Glory. She did the customary threat that she'd kill him if they were hurt. In all honesty, that moment was a bit early and not really earned well. I don't see why she didn't think he'd just hand them over, except that maybe she figured Spike had no reason to want to deal with Glory. Again, Spike literally just chained her up and tried to force her to love him here. Is Buffy toxic with him? Yes. But he is also toxic AF, and those of us who have seen the series know the unforgivable shit that goes down. You can definitely say they're both toxic with each other, but painting Spike as the "nice guy" and Buffy as the asshole is absurd, and honestly concerning if you've watched the entire series at this point.
I wondered if you'd make the connection with the blindfolded doll. Apparently you forgot what happens when one speaks out of turn: it shall have no cakes today. You're also demonstrating the same problem so many others did, with Spike on a leash: viewers liked him too much. He's still a soulless monster, of *course* one convo with Dru was enough.
"misleading" suggest intention, which clearly wasn't there. her response to Dawn made it clear that she didn't even suspect he had a crush on her. people of all genders variants can have non-romantic relationships of varying kinds. even cis opposite genders
Buffy hasn't done anything to make Spike think they're friends. She uses him as an asset like Angel used that one guy Merl or whatever. She wasn't even nice when she did it, it was like giving orders.
I forgot how funny and cringey and just hilarious it is to see Harmony wearing Buffy's sweater, holding a stake, saying (like a bad actress), "Ohhhhh, I'm gonna stake you!" LOL. So wrong, Spike. So wrong.
When Ben turned into Glory, I felt like all questions were answered. My interpretation was that they are the same person, or at least twins that inhabit the same body. Glory being some sort of mad god and Ben being her split personality/brother. When Dawn started talking about the key, it caused the Glory personality to emerge because of how important it was to her. This is something we see in real life patients with split personality disorders (or at least that's how they're depicted in media). I think Glory and Ben only have a vague awareness of what's going on when the other personality is active. That's why I think Ben is nervous, he doesn't really know what happened after Glory took over or what Buffy knows. I could be way off, but this is the impression I have at this point in the series.
Yea like 2 souls in 1 body. Ben's mom I guess was pregnant and when he was born she inhabited his body also. I think he said that as the years pass she comes out more. So when he was a baby she probably didn't come out at all.
This is 1 of the biggest plot holes for me & how implausible Spikes arc of becoming a “good” guy just because of a chip in his head is. How is it possible to believe that the girl who Drusilla kills for him is the first human blood he’s had since he got his chip? He’s been living with Harmony! Harmony has clearly been killing & feeding on humans the whole time are we meant to believe she wasn’t bringing victims for spike? It just doesn’t make sense. Also, Buffy let’s Drusilla and Harmony live again. For no reason. I know they’re fan faves & they didn’t want to kill them off but still doesn’t make sense. And no justice for Kendra!
Her overreaction IMO is her getting uncomfortable with a physical attraction to him. When it turns to love from him it crosses the line for her. It's funny how he was breaking into her house over and over but it was LOVE from him where the line was drawn lmao
One of the few episodes in S5 I have a hard time with. When it first aired it was because it aired as a valentines day episode. Even without that though, the story isn't as interesting as most of S5 is.
I love Drusilla says about love, "We can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely." Great line. And poor Harmony, tossed out again as soon as Spike doesn't need her. Unfortunately that's not unlike how Buffy treats Spike -- she tells him she loathes him, but like Dakara notes, she calls on him whenever she needs something from him (give her info, watch over her family or friends for her, come with her to kick some demon ass and give her fight back-up). So Spike uses Harmony, and Buffy uses Spike. It's not healthy all around. Of course, just because Buffy has Spike for info and fight back-up doesn't mean she has to love him back. You love who you love, you don't force stuff. But I do think she could show him a little more appreciation / respect sometimes.
Yeah, metaphors and allegories are pretty huge in this show. There’s the Slayer representing growing up and being queer. There’s magic and witchcraft representing sex and drug use. There’s all sorts of thematic and symbolic imagery and meaning hidden within the deeper layers of this teen cult supernatural show that make it so much more than surface level TV art/entertainment. That’s the stuff people really feel and resonate with. That’s what makes this show so timeless. The classic that it is.
I have a theory; Spike isn't really evil, he's acting evil. Rather, he's acting the way he believes that vampires act. He started as a good boy, then became a vampire. Without any point of reference, he is acting the part he's been forced into. Just a theory. I know I've said it before, but Harmony is just to stupid to be evil.
Why would Spike be the one vampire to not be evil? No point of reference for what? Being a vampire? He's not the first person to be turned who never encountered a vampire before. Being evil? Have you seen his life before getting turned?
I agree. I think it’s very much like Willow. Performative identities. I think Spike has done evil things but I don’t think he is inherently evil. I think it’s possible he can choose to be good.
@@godmagnusI think it really depends on whether it’s demonic corruption or demonic possession. I always argue for demonic corruption because I think that makes more sense. Especially regarding episodes like ‘Fool For Love’ and this episode. You can’t just simply say that he is evil just because he is a soulless vampire. There’s more to it than that.
Spike is evil because he eats people to survive. He doesn’t inherently view people as anything but food. Spike with the chip is like someone forced to live with a herd of cows. They are probably going to get fond of the cows, maybe even protective of some of them. But that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t eat a burger as soon as they got a chance, and it doesn’t mean they suddenly believe in cow rights. Plus, whatever inhabited him twisted his romanticism and self loathing into a stew of self destruction, obsession and violence.
Okay I can't not say anything now. The hypocrisy is real with this episode, even more so than your views of Wes/Cordy. It's creepy for Spike to hang out with Dawn, when he has NO romantic or sexual feelings for her, but you legitimately ship Angel and Buffy, when Angel "fell in love" with her at 15 (which is only a year older than Dawn is here btw), and kissed/groped her by 16? Come off it. Please. You're ridiculous now. Also worth pointing out, again cause I have before, that Angel and Spike were turned around the same age, 26-27.
It’s not a doll. It’s a sex toy that Spike had made in Buffy’s with zero consent. It was made so Spike could have sex with his preferred image of her. Really baffled why people keep insisting that he’s in love with Buffy. Probably because fandom has the hots for James Marsters.
It is a doll. That he used when he was practicing how he should tell Buffy about his feelings. It is not a sex toy. It's a mannequin. You can't use it as a sex toy. And in order to see what it is you just need to press pause and you don't need to have any hots for anyone to see that.
My wife and I met James Marsters at a Buffy convention. Her first words to him were "You have been so good for our marriage."
the scene with Spike and Dru walking up on that couple in the Bronze gives me CHILLS. just the thought of Spike going back to his old evil self, and Dru there with him ... *shudder*. love it!
He would have if not for the chip.
Old evil self? When did Spike stop being evil?
The thing about Spike is, he was such a huge romantic before he was turned into a vampire. And from what I understand, you do keep those parts of your personality, even with the demon inside. So it's not such a surprise for him to fall in love with Buffy. He clearly loves strongly (look how he was with Drusilla, and his speech about love to Buffy and Angel -- he's a passionate guy). It's important to him, and I think he loves love.
On the other hand... his behavior could also be called obsession. And that's just unhealthy, lol.
Interesting you say the humor feels british. Whedon did go to college in the UK and the main inspiration for the show was the US/UK co-produced series She-wolf of London
Crush is an important episode going forward. Spike's infatuation with Buffy now reaching crazy levels, stealing Buffy's clothing, and have Harmony (possibly the most entertaining character in the Buffyverse) dress up cosplaying as Buffy. We have the Domino effect here of Dawn crushing on Spike, Spike crushing on Buffy etc, and great comedy moment with Xander getting jealous about the fact that he is no longer Dawn's crush.
Spike has an okay relationship with Dawn and even Buffy's mom not because of Buffy. But just because they don't treat him like a thing so he is friendly with them in return. If you treat him good he can return it.
I believe an evil person or entity can change based on the environment they are in. If it’s healthy and loving, I think it’s very much possible for nurture to override nature no matter how “evil” that person/entity is.
I think external influence is a massive deal. And I don’t think the “soul” has anything to do with it. I think of the “soul” as just an internal moral compass. The ability to know instinctively right from wrong. But that doesn’t mean that the person/entity always chooses right when it has a soul and wrong when it is soulless.
If free will is something it’s capable of anyway, why does the soul ever need to come into the narrative?
This is something I’m always going to question with Spike because he was showing he was capable of it before they went the other way with him and absolutely assassinated his character because of it.
@@Girl4Music yes, and we saw that vampires are different. It started with simple statement that all of them are monsters like Angelus was. Because 'no soul'. I think this soul element appeared only to integrate him into the team and start relationship with Buffy. Because if we l look at this regardless of it, soul doesn't save you from being a bad guy. Or it should mean that all people who do bad things are soulless.
Anyway somewhere starting from Spike and Harmony we saw that no, not all vampires are just soulless monsters and nothing else so should be treated accordingly. Look at them, they are capable of human emotions, they can cooperate with other people. Spike is capable of compassion even if he likes the person. The show keeps the main vampires ideology and makes Buffy treat them this way. She is just a slayer so she slays. Meanwhile there is a parallel plot there. Which shows that Spike is way more than just some evil creature. And this conflicts with the main ideology. At some point secondary theory will come forward, s5, but eventually the main ideology will win later in s6. Will be pushed through.
And regarding what you say about treatment I would say it this way, if you treat someone really bad, use violence and humiliate them, like it was in s6 from Buffy's side eventually you will get a bad guy. If you constantly repeat someone how awful they are, you will get what you say.
@@Junejane4 👍👌
Yep, Dru killed everyone on the train. The doll was supposed to be a clue, a reference to Dru's dolls in Season 2. I liked the episode but honestly it just proves how much I prefer Spike and Dru together. They tried to have Dru do the hypnosis trick she did on Kendra to Buffy at the end, but I wish they had her say the first few lines before Spike saved Buffy
Mercedes McNab is SUCH an underrated performer.
Really wish she'd return to acting, bc she is an amazing comedic actress. Season 1-3 did NOT do her justice, and she really shines throughout S5.
Having a crush on James Marsters is perfectly normal :P
Another actor who really should have appeared in more things in his prime. (I think maybe he was too short to be a leading man? Not every short king is as fortunate as Tom Cruise. Or maybe it was his music? Either way, robbed of a man with true charisma)
I was so glad when I saw him in Runaways (even if the show wasn't that great) and even MORE made up when I heard he narrates the Dresden Files books (he's pretty damn good too, even if audiobooks aren't my favourite)
And I really like that you're already picking up on the mixed signals Buffy sends.
She's using him. He IS a monster without a conscience... but his obsession is doing something to him.
Just as there is always something of the monster in Angel, there does seem to always be something of the man within the vampire.
He’s been very honest about his blowing auditions and not getting cast as a result.
Painful ><
I've only watched a handful of interviews from him, but he does appear rather frank.
But I suppose it's part of the craft.
I do suspect politics (small p) plays a substantial role in the industry though.@@tananario23
Buffy and her crew remember a lot better than viewers do apparently exactly what kind of a monster Spike is. He wasn't just okay with it but was *gleeful* at the memory he was retelling Dawn of how he murdered an entire family and stalked a toddler before tearing that toddler apart with his bare hands. For fun. And he still thinks it was fun. Still enjoys the memory of tearing that little kid and the kid's family apart.
Buffy can never see herself being with something like that, no matter how useful he might be to her. He's supernaturally strong, not just something that comes along every day, and has proven willing to be muscle for hire. They pay him money, he does things like fight or get info. It's a working relationship but it's certainly not a friendship.
Buffy will never, ever trust Spike. He has no soul and would, at a moment's notice, sell out her and her friends and family if it serves him to do so. It's just that right now, Spike's obsession is Buffy so the things he does, all of the things he does, are based around, "would this action help me get to Buffy?" The problem, of course, is that his obsession is filtered through the lens of being soulless so he does things like kidnap her and threaten to murder her to those ends. And previously, it was "be nice to her and hit on her" and that failed. And before that it was "spy on her and give her info (about Riley)" and that failed. So he'll keep moving on to the next thing.
Because, at his core, that's what Spike is and what his whole character is about: obsession. We saw in Fool For Love that he professed his LOVE for a girl who he had barely ever spoken to, spent every waking moment doting on her and pining over her and writing poetry when she didn't even know he existed. We saw in season 2/3 how he was obsessed with Drusilla, to the point of his entire plan for the first half of the season trying to cure her and the second half giving her gifts (the Judge) or going along with her plans even when he didn't want to (Acathla) until they were about to actually work. And season 3 with him falling apart with no purpose or direction in life at all, until he comes back and gets a purpose (Drusilla) and heads off to torture her.
He has no goals or direction for himself beyond his obsession with others and generally being hedonistic and hurting people to get what he wants in the moment.
Can't fully get into it because of spoilers, but that's what his character is about in the same way that Buffy is about bucking tradition to follow your own moral code and Willow is about finding confidence and self-esteem and Xander is about how to grow up and start figuring out how to be a better man after a traumatic home life. Spike is about what happens when you define yourself through your obsession with something external versus examining yourself and finding your own purpose.
And his arc by the end of the Buffyverse is fantastic when viewed through that lens, so keep it in the back of your mind all the way til his last scene!
Lets keep in mind that THIS is what Spike sees as love. Torturing and hurting someone till they give him the attention he wants. Yes vampires can fall in love and even have a lot of passion but that's not all there is.
I love this episode.
To me, this episode is a train wreck that's been coming since Spike first arrived.
And it involved an actual train so your summary is spot on.
Buffy is definitely the queen of mixed messages.
She gave no mixed messages to Spike. None.
@@volourn9764 then why do they end up together? Why do they literally kiss like four episodes later?
@BazingaIRanOutOfIdeas she literally and repeatedly told him to get lost. He kept pushing and with the trauma she's been through she finally was too weak to resist. How many times must she say no? He repeatedly ignored her no.
@@volourn9764 OR, she was lying to herself about her feelings for Spike, he stayed determined and she eventually let her walls down for him.
Buffy: Your only chance is with my unconscious body.
Spike: So your saying I have a chance?
Also Dakara I know you are far ahead now on Patreon but looking back on this... Facepalm 😂🤣 Ben
Picking up on the British humour. Joss went to school in England. He was also apparently a HUGE fan of Monty Python and anything British pretty much.
Whedon went to and graduated from the English public school Winchester and is a fan of Flying Circus...the doll was a tip off...
"Look at his little face" (Spike). I think that's a first. LOL! I think Buffy definitely has chemistry with Spike, which draws her to him, almost using the excuse of needing his assistance. She denies and dismisses her attraction because, well... he's Spike! But she never takes any opportunities to stake him. It's a tough place for Buffy to be in. Spike just feels passion, so he acts on it without thinking because, well... he's Spike!
Hope you feel better very soon, Dakara! (Getting over a cold right now, myself, so I understand.)
We were constantly sick when our kid was in nursery school. It gets better when they get older.
Buffy has been Using Spike, repeatedly, for about as long as he's been chipped. Whether he's working with her, or working for her, they've spent a fair amount of time together. And it's so easy, sometimes, for some people (or vamps, I s'pose) to mistake attention for liking, and liking for affection - esp. when there's a hidden or latent yearning on the receiver's end. (Let that be a warning to some of you boys and girls ... 😈 !)
So I think Dakara's got it right: mistakes were made on both sides. Buffy being oblivious to this dynamic; and Spike taking it way over the top, both because he's Spike, and because he can't quite imagine that he's capable of falling into a wish-fulfilling delusion. And this despite the fact that he once welcomed Dru turrning him so that he could become a ferocious creature, immune to the weakness that allowed him to pine for the stuck-up Cecily in Fool for Love. Poor sad William. 😥🙄
Yes, I agree with you. She is an ice queen with Spike, she likes to insult and humiliate him but when she has a problem she wants him to help her right away and she goes straight to him. Can she at least try to have some normal communication with him then? She pretends like she doesn't know him but she expects him to help her and do whatever she asks every damn time. That would be hard for me to treat someone in such a split way.
I think Buffy finds Spike convenient and powerful enough to protect Dawn or to solve problems but she is not cool with him being in love with her. It's complicated. Buffy does mislead him, she's not perfect and makes mistakes and that is why she's a fascinating relatable protagonist.
What Buffy does throughout the show with Riley and Spike is not even close to a "mistake". She intentionally leads both of them on and gaslights them when they call her out on it.
And it gets even better from here!
Posting my BUFFY REWATCH recap for ‘Crush’. May contain spoilers.
Willow and Tara are talking about a test that they have to study for for one of their classes that they take together - presumably English since the assignment of study appears to be on the literature 'The Hunchback Of Notre Dame’. They are having a debate on Quasimodo’s unrequited love for Esmerelda, and Tara brings up the implications of a love not reciprocated to argue her point of view being that Quasimodo shouldn’t have ended up with Esmerelda, when Willow’s point of view is that of that he should have.
I do love when the theme of the episode is foreshadowed early into it. See, the episode is called 'Crush’ and it’s primarily about Spike’s crush on Buffy, who at the moment is “chastised” by the chip in his head that prevents him from hurting civilians similiar to the way Quasimodo is “chastised” by his hunchback condition and his ugly “bumpy” facial features that prevents him from living amongst civilians who would only see him as a “monster”, that would hurt them, and not like a “man”.
So the theme here is 'Man VS Monster’. Quasimodo is used as a metaphor for Spike’s character in this episode - and arguably for his entire redemption arc. His love for Buffy is so severely unreciprocated that he begins to force himself on her in very violating ways going forward in the show from this episode that ultimately leads to the physical force of rape/sexual assault. The scene in the previous episode, where he rehearses in front of 'mannequin Buffy’ in practice of giving Buffy a birthday gift, showed us that he felt some guilt for telling her about Riley’s nightly outings to that vampire “suckjob” den. It was a selfishly motivated act because it was in the effort to get Buffy to leave Riley and to get with him. But it never played out that way, and so Spike feels desperate times call for desperate measures. In this episode he harrases Buffy to get her to admit her feelings for him.
A complication arises in Druscilla’s return to Sunnydale. Her intention? To get Spike back and revert him to the evil “monster” he once was before the government put that chip in his head. She succeeds in getting him to feed off humans again, and so now Spike has even less chance of being with Buffy. He goes as far as chaining her up in his crypt and threatens to kill Druscilla in a desperate attempt to prove to Buffy how serious he is about being with her and about how much he loves her - to which she shows no reaction to other than scorn. And so she should. It’s an extremely violating and exploitative act to coerce her to saying 'yes’ to feeling something through force and threats.
Like Tara said about Quasimodo in her debate with Willow,… Spike had love for a woman who would never be able to love him back, and is indeed acting like the “monster” more than the “man”. Does he deserve Buffy? Does Buffy deserve him? At this point in the show, not at all. They are far too abusive to each other and any relationship that could develop from it would be doomed by it unless one of them would go to a drastic effort to end that abusiveness.
BUFFY: “Oh… oh no.
*Turns back to Spike*
Are you out of your mind?”
SPIKE: “It’s not so unusual.
*Walks toward her*
Two people… in the workplace… feelings develop.”
BUFFY: “No! No, no, feelings do not develop. No feelings.”
SPIKE: “You can’t deny it. There’s something between us.”
BUFFY: “Loathing. Disgust.”
SPIKE: “Heat. Desire.”
BUFFY: “Please! Spike, you’re a vampire.”
SPIKE: “Angel was a vampire.”
BUFFY: “Angel was good!”
SPIKE: “And I can be too. I’ve changed, Buffy.”
BUFFY: “What, that chip in your head? That’s not change. That’s just… holding you back. You’re like a serial killer in prison!”
SPIKE: “Women marry 'em all the time!”
BUFFY: “Uhh!”
SPIKE:
*Realizing that’s not what he meant*
“But I’m not… like that. Something’s happening to me. I can’t stop thinking about you.
*Buffy turns away*
And if that means turning my back on the whole "evil” thing-“
BUFFY:
*Turns back*
"You don’t know what you mean! You don’t know what feelings are!”
SPIKE:
*Offended*
“I damn well do! I lie awake every night!”
BUFFY: “You sleep during the day!”
SPIKE: “Yeah, but… you are missing the point. This is real here. I love-”
BUFFY: “Don’t!
*She puts up a hand to stop him. He sighs*
Don’t say it.
*Spike stares at her*
I’m going.”
*She starts to walk toward the door again*
SPIKE: “Oh, come on, we need to talk-”
BUFFY:
*Turns back*
“We don’t need to do anything! Okay?! There is no 'we’! Understand?!”
*She turns to leave*
SPIKE: “Buffy.”
*She opens the door and exits. Spike watches her go*
Spike’s crush on Buffy has developed into an overwhelming obsession and he has now become dangerous in others ways than just in not being able to physically hurt her. Death and violence as the “monster” is all he knows, and therefore, he conflates and confuses it with love and passion as the “man”. He does not understand the difference between these emotions and experiences.
But here’s the thing - neither does Buffy as far as her and relationships go. While she doesn’t reciprocate the love Spike has for her… She too is caught up in the conflation and confusion of emotions and experiences. So the theme of 'Crush’ is also 'Woman VS Slayer’. And the question has to be asked as Buffy is Esmerelda in this metaphor, and she does get chained up… Is she “chastised” too? Does being the Slayer prevent her from living like a woman just the same as it prevents Spike (Quasimodo) from living like a man? And is that why she cannot make love relationships work?
remember when he said she had stupid hair? Five Words or less? That's because he couldn't get the mannequins hair to look right:)
I hope you feel better soon, there's a lot of that going around now.
Feel better!
there is some friendship that grew a little ever since Spike couldn't hurt people anymore and started to help fighting demons and vampires. but the thing is with guys, friendship is never enough. as soon as a girl is a little bit nice to them, in their head it's like "maybe there could be more"
Only if he finds her at least somewhat attractive though.
Just because she goes to Spike for help because he is the strongest one she knows doesn’t mean she’s his friend or she likes him. He’s a convenience for her and after seeing how psychotic his crush is towards her she had to put her foot down
It'd the sane reason she hasn't killed him even though she should - he's harmless. She views him the same as she views the Council. Buffy has never been 'friendly' with Spike.
Buffys Freudian slip about beating him up knowing that it turned him on the whole time 😅
Joss Whedon went to school in the UK so he gets the British humour.
Public service anouncement:
Do not show any affection whatsoever to your stalker.
I think Buffy was kind of viewing Spike (or trying to view Spike) as a combination of a harmless enemy and an informant that she pays or beats for help.
But I agree they have developed a friendship and comfort with each other at this point that Buffy isn't really acknowledging. Him not having a soul is a really big deal for her though, because she kills vampires without souls, and Angel was "different" from Angelus because he had one. A vampire being able to love without a soul might break the world view she needs in some major ways.
But every time there's trouble she goes to him. Takes Her mom and Dawn to him to protect. It's pretty rubbish the way she uses him and discards him.
@@russellward4624 Are there some issues in the way Buffy continues to view Spike as a monster even when he is helpful? Sure. But he actually doesn't have a soul, any conscience, of any sense of right or wrong, he still has fairly recently threatened to kill her, he has more than likely raped and killed his way through over the last century. Soooo... Is she wrong to try to maintain certain boundaries? In Buffy's eyes he's been "neutered" and she can trust him only to a limited extent, up to this point she thinks he helps because they pay him and she's not killing him. And Buffy will use whatever resources she has when dealing with the high stakes she does in every day life. But as far as she knows he still would try to kill her the moment his chip stopped working.
And he's not exactly an innocent bystander in the toxicity of this relationship, when she turned him down he literally chained her up and tried to force her on threat of death to tell him he had a chance. I'm only going to talk about what has happened up till now to avoid spoilers, but Spike isn't exactly the poor "nice guy" with Buffy as the asshole here.
@ceceliam9014 but if he's so awful why does she trust him with her family? She's using him in a really crappy way. She tells him she trusts him and can count on him, how much she appreciated him protecting Dawn then when the danger is over she treats him terribly. Spike says a lot ofmthings but we all know he doesn't mean any of it.
@@russellward4624 Yes, we all have a great deal of awareness about what Spike does and doesn't mean because we've seen seasons 5-7 and because we see scenes of Spike that Buffy does not. Up until this episode there's no reason Buffy has to know Spike has reason to actually want to help her from his heart. She treats him like an informant and (currently) harmless enemy because it makes absolute sense that's a big part of what he is to her (though yes, I think there's some denial from her trying to keep those boundaries up at this point). And even in season 6 Buffy often repeats the belief that if you have no soul you can't really feel and you certainly can't love.
And Buffy took her mom and sister to Spike because he was a safer option than Glory. She did the customary threat that she'd kill him if they were hurt. In all honesty, that moment was a bit early and not really earned well. I don't see why she didn't think he'd just hand them over, except that maybe she figured Spike had no reason to want to deal with Glory.
Again, Spike literally just chained her up and tried to force her to love him here. Is Buffy toxic with him? Yes. But he is also toxic AF, and those of us who have seen the series know the unforgivable shit that goes down.
You can definitely say they're both toxic with each other, but painting Spike as the "nice guy" and Buffy as the asshole is absurd, and honestly concerning if you've watched the entire series at this point.
Go Go Druzilla!
I wondered if you'd make the connection with the blindfolded doll. Apparently you forgot what happens when one speaks out of turn: it shall have no cakes today. You're also demonstrating the same problem so many others did, with Spike on a leash: viewers liked him too much. He's still a soulless monster, of *course* one convo with Dru was enough.
"misleading" suggest intention, which clearly wasn't there.
her response to Dawn made it clear that she didn't even suspect he had a crush on her.
people of all genders variants can have non-romantic relationships of varying kinds. even cis opposite genders
James Marsters Spike OG Renegade Rebel all-day 🤘
Buffy hasn't done anything to make Spike think they're friends. She uses him as an asset like Angel used that one guy Merl or whatever. She wasn't even nice when she did it, it was like giving orders.
I forgot how funny and cringey and just hilarious it is to see Harmony wearing Buffy's sweater, holding a stake, saying (like a bad actress), "Ohhhhh, I'm gonna stake you!" LOL. So wrong, Spike. So wrong.
When Ben turned into Glory, I felt like all questions were answered. My interpretation was that they are the same person, or at least twins that inhabit the same body. Glory being some sort of mad god and Ben being her split personality/brother. When Dawn started talking about the key, it caused the Glory personality to emerge because of how important it was to her. This is something we see in real life patients with split personality disorders (or at least that's how they're depicted in media). I think Glory and Ben only have a vague awareness of what's going on when the other personality is active. That's why I think Ben is nervous, he doesn't really know what happened after Glory took over or what Buffy knows.
I could be way off, but this is the impression I have at this point in the series.
Yea like 2 souls in 1 body. Ben's mom I guess was pregnant and when he was born she inhabited his body also. I think he said that as the years pass she comes out more. So when he was a baby she probably didn't come out at all.
This is 1 of the biggest plot holes for me & how implausible Spikes arc of becoming a “good” guy just because of a chip in his head is. How is it possible to believe that the girl who Drusilla kills for him is the first human blood he’s had since he got his chip? He’s been living with Harmony! Harmony has clearly been killing & feeding on humans the whole time are we meant to believe she wasn’t bringing victims for spike? It just doesn’t make sense. Also, Buffy let’s Drusilla and Harmony live again. For no reason. I know they’re fan faves & they didn’t want to kill them off but still doesn’t make sense. And no justice for Kendra!
Her overreaction IMO is her getting uncomfortable with a physical attraction to him. When it turns to love from him it crosses the line for her. It's funny how he was breaking into her house over and over but it was LOVE from him where the line was drawn lmao
One of the few episodes in S5 I have a hard time with. When it first aired it was because it aired as a valentines day episode. Even without that though, the story isn't as interesting as most of S5 is.
I love Drusilla says about love, "We can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely." Great line.
And poor Harmony, tossed out again as soon as Spike doesn't need her. Unfortunately that's not unlike how Buffy treats Spike -- she tells him she loathes him, but like Dakara notes, she calls on him whenever she needs something from him (give her info, watch over her family or friends for her, come with her to kick some demon ass and give her fight back-up). So Spike uses Harmony, and Buffy uses Spike. It's not healthy all around.
Of course, just because Buffy has Spike for info and fight back-up doesn't mean she has to love him back. You love who you love, you don't force stuff. But I do think she could show him a little more appreciation / respect sometimes.
Yeah, metaphors and allegories are pretty huge in this show. There’s the Slayer representing growing up and being queer. There’s magic and witchcraft representing sex and drug use. There’s all sorts of thematic and symbolic imagery and meaning hidden within the deeper layers of this teen cult supernatural show that make it so much more than surface level TV art/entertainment. That’s the stuff people really feel and resonate with. That’s what makes this show so timeless. The classic that it is.
I have a theory; Spike isn't really evil, he's acting evil. Rather, he's acting the way he believes that vampires act. He started as a good boy, then became a vampire. Without any point of reference, he is acting the part he's been forced into. Just a theory. I know I've said it before, but Harmony is just to stupid to be evil.
Why would Spike be the one vampire to not be evil? No point of reference for what? Being a vampire? He's not the first person to be turned who never encountered a vampire before. Being evil? Have you seen his life before getting turned?
I agree. I think it’s very much like Willow. Performative identities. I think Spike has done evil things but I don’t think he is inherently evil. I think it’s possible he can choose to be good.
@@godmagnusI think it really depends on whether it’s demonic corruption or demonic possession. I always argue for demonic corruption because I think that makes more sense. Especially regarding episodes like ‘Fool For Love’ and this episode. You can’t just simply say that he is evil just because he is a soulless vampire. There’s more to it than that.
Spike is evil because he eats people to survive. He doesn’t inherently view people as anything but food.
Spike with the chip is like someone forced to live with a herd of cows. They are probably going to get fond of the cows, maybe even protective of some of them. But that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t eat a burger as soon as they got a chance, and it doesn’t mean they suddenly believe in cow rights.
Plus, whatever inhabited him twisted his romanticism and self loathing into a stew of self destruction, obsession and violence.
@@somerotter well in that case we’re all evil then.
Okay I can't not say anything now. The hypocrisy is real with this episode, even more so than your views of Wes/Cordy. It's creepy for Spike to hang out with Dawn, when he has NO romantic or sexual feelings for her, but you legitimately ship Angel and Buffy, when Angel "fell in love" with her at 15 (which is only a year older than Dawn is here btw), and kissed/groped her by 16? Come off it. Please. You're ridiculous now. Also worth pointing out, again cause I have before, that Angel and Spike were turned around the same age, 26-27.
Spike is evil. I have no sympathy for that piece if crap no matter how 'funny' he can be.
It’s not a doll. It’s a sex toy that Spike had made in Buffy’s with zero consent. It was made so Spike could have sex with his preferred image of her. Really baffled why people keep insisting that he’s in love with Buffy. Probably because fandom has the hots for James Marsters.
It is a doll. That he used when he was practicing how he should tell Buffy about his feelings. It is not a sex toy. It's a mannequin. You can't use it as a sex toy. And in order to see what it is you just need to press pause and you don't need to have any hots for anyone to see that.
That's next episode ;) this one was just a doll. (Dakara's on Season 7 now, so it's not a spoiler)