Forever: Buffy the Vampire Slayer 5x17 Reaction
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- Опубликовано: 22 ноя 2023
- Forever: Buffy the Vampire Slayer 5x17 Reaction
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When Buffy says "Who's gonna take care of us?" it just breaks my heart.
It gets overshadowed by The Body, but this episode has some of the best acting in TV history. SMG and MT in the final scene, talking about Joyce...and Buffy breaking down. When they collapse to the floor, my heart shatters. Every time. And her "Who's gonna take care of us?" speech. My god, she needed an Emmy for this.
You are very vulnerable in your reactions and that is what makes you such a reactor. I admire you ability to do that. You are a very authentic person. ❤❤❤ With Respect Always Brant Heavner
Agreed. That last scene was as good as any I've seen anywhere. Sarah and Michelle took a great script to it's full potential. In my opinion anyway.
a) Spike's first interaction with Joyce was her hitting him with an ax in 'School Hard', defending her daughter - for Spike that's worthy of respect; he truly misses her and is affected by her death
b) Spike's memory was also altered by the monks and probably also was given a sense of having to protect Dawn; but since he's a vampire, his sense of protection is a bit warped and could include helping her with a resurrection spell
I think he thought she was going to do it anyway. 'helping' her allowed him to be there
@@nicholasjh1and keep her from going off on her own in a pretty dangerous town.
Willow has always tried to use magic as a quick fix - the de-lusting spell when her and Xander were cheating, and the spell in 'Something Blue' to get over Oz leaving are two examples. It makes sense that she'd help Dawn try a quick fix as well
especially since she, too, was in pain and missing Joyce. its definitely a pattern with Willow. she doesn't want to feel/deal with the pain and just wants a quick out/fix.
She was also new to magic and was used to being gifted academically. Tara has had much more experience with magic, and since her mom was also a wiccan, she likely got a lot of wisdom from her. Willow and Tara are good examples of the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
Buffy's "Mommy" always breaks me.
Xander is understandably wary of Spike, so I get why he was suspicious and annoyed to see him in that moment. However, I definitely give Spike credit for showing up with the flowers. They've shown a wonderfully weird "friendship" between Spike and Joyce over the seasons, so it's completely believable that he cared for her and was sorry she was gone, because he knows that the loss breaks Buffy's heart but also because he genuinely liked Joyce in his own way. I loved Joyce's nurturing nature toward Spike -- especially that chat they once had about Dru breaking up with him, lol -- so it moved me to see him show up with flowers and say how much he liked her.
Xander rightly distrusts Spike... he's an evil vampire whose done serious harm to X and his friends.
It's the Buffyverse retelling of 'The Monkeys Paw'.
I think The Body is one of the most impactful pieces of media ever made.
Dakara, when you're done with Buffy and can watch other reactors, you'll get to see that some people have a complete meltdown. It might make you feel much more normal for finding this so impactful.
If you think Allison Hannigan's face makes you smile, you should search images of her and Alexis' two little girls. Auburn haired little cuties, although they're likely teens by now. The family is adorable-overload.
Leaving someone to provide comfort and initial counseling while the rest go back to saving lives can also be the case in some places in the US. My brother was an emergency responder, as a driver and a trained EMT, and now is a chaplain associated with a volunteer fire & rescue service. He's on call, so that if someone on a call needs him to talk to a person affected by an accident etc., he can go to the scene and provide that comfort and counseling, allowing the first responders to get on with their own jobs.
Angel showing up to be there for Buffy moves me every time. Such a beautiful scene between them. ❤
On this Thanksgiving Day I'm thankful for your uploads. This stretch of season five is tough but so real
Happy thanksgiving
@@DakaraJayneit's a yam sham
@@treyokelly9662 It's not a sham if you're truly thankful and believe it in your heart tin man.
Nobody said Spike was wise. But he does seem to have a thing for helping Summers women. Even when he shouldn't. Spike has issues, but I like him in spite of myself.
The moment when Dawn and Buffy 'talk' as Joyce's revenant is approaching, and Buffy finally breaks down in front of Dawn, really needed to happen.
The man that Spike took Dawn to see about bringing Joyce back was played by Joel Grey. He's best known for his role as the Master of Ceremonies in Cabaret on Broadway and in the movie,, which co-starred Liza Minnelli (Judy Garland's daughter). He's appeared in movies, TV, and Broadway & has an Oscar, a Tony, a BAFTA, & Golden Globe. He's also the father of actress Jennifer Grey (Ferris Bueller's' Day Off, Dirty Dancing).
When my Mother died, my ex-fiancee and I recreated the Angel and Buffy sitting underneath the tree, I got out of my wheelchair, I told her what happened and I we just talked until the sun went down, I needed my Buffy in that moment.
Unless given a reason people tend not to look up. In my fraternity my favorite hiding spot was the entry hall about 12' up along the ceiling on a ledge. Not once did anyone ever look up.
You know the monk said they made Dawn from Buffy to be her little sister to be protected but that would make Buffy her mom and not her sister.
Willow was limited in high school so much by others now that she has found power she is having a problem with limits. One of her things is knowledge, she reads the syllabus and all the books on it. The more knowledge you have the better your choices and the less limits.
Others never limited Willow in high school. That was Willow.
The actor playing doc (tail guy) is a Broadway GOD!
Joel Grey - I loved him as Chiun in Remo Williams: The Adventures Begins - which didn't do well enough to get additional movies made, but it's a guilty pleasure of mine. :)
@ernesthakey3396 Amos in Chicago..."basic" but his mr cellophane, best ever
His big break was in Cabaret. The piece he hums while looking at books is from that musical.
I feel we also have to mention that he's the father of Jennifer Grey, i.e. Baby from Dirty Dancing.
28:38 It wasn’t just the sex as to why Angel had that perfect moment of happiness. Moments of pure happiness are exceedingly rare. Just think of a time you had that. There weren’t many I’d wager.
Yep. It was waking up next to the one true love of his life...all he could think about was her, no remorse, no brooding about the past, just perfectly happy in the moment.
yep which is why my head cannon is that it actually should be perfectly safe from now on because the very knowledge that true happiness will turn him will make Angel miserable enough to no longer being able to achieve true happiness again.
I think even a spell that made him feel happiness turned him into Angel too right?
@@IAMHIM15 well that is deep into spoiler territory
but that wasn't just a spell, that was a spell that created a fantasy world where he got love confirmed from Cordy and a sons love from Connor at the same time, giving him another moment of true happiness.
@@Henrik_Holst No, No spoilers from me. I was talking about season one, episode 17, Eternity. Where the actress chick Rebecca puts some type of spell/drug thing into his drink or something, to make him feel pure bliss. Which briefly turns him into Angelus.
I used to be a little mad at Ben for not finishing the job killing Jinx ("How did you screw that up, you're a medical professional"), but then remembered demons are often harder to kill or need to be killed in specific ways, and Ben probably isn't all that practiced in killing demons or knowing the signs to look for.
I think both Spike and Willow recognized that Dawn wasn't just going to stop if they forbade her so the best way was to let her learn the error of her ways on her own. Sometimes you just have to let people learn from their mistakes rather than protect them from making them.
I absolutely love this episode because its far more consequential as it sets the tone for Buffy's own journey in season 6 but overall this episode speaks about the realities of death beyond just grief.
Happy Thanksgiving Dakara 🦃❤️🕯️🤘 Crazy episode Right on a Funny note during my Many meetings with James Marsters and he's behind the scenes Stories 😂 You know when he said "I will do it Myself" Turns out He Had to! The Prop Monster Guy didn't show up that day! Lmao so when you watch this know He was fighting that Monster Since he ran a Theater Company He was Kicking he's own But all for the sake of Art😂 Stay awesome Dakara 🤘
Willow didn't realize there were references in the book that Dawn could use to bring Joyce back. She said "it's just a history book. it might answer some of her questions. i don't think she could do any harm with that stuff could she?" and then Tara tells her it refers to specific spells and potions and willow says "but I didn't- i mean - hey! how did she know that?"
She thought she was just giving Dawn a book with some answers as to why they can't do the spells, not a guide on how to do it. It was short-sighted and a little reckless of Willow but not intended badly.
Totally agree - not showing "Joyce" is one of the wisest moves the show ever made IMO. It would've been a cheap shot, diminishing the character _and_ last ep's incredible handling of her death.
I think a lot of people forget that Spike held Xander and Willow hostage and threatened to put a bottle through Willow's face. XANDER DOESN'T LIKE SPIKE and to be honest there not much at this point for him to like about him.
Crazy how a lot of people always want xander to have a redemption when he says or does something that people don't like. However, if spike does one GOOD thing its like "omg, he's changed!." Then their argument is that unlike xander, spike has no soul...yea ok, buddy.
Mostly the Female fans are willing to forgive Spike because he's good looking. Yes, is that pathetic
It’s not just because of his looks. For us Americans, it’s the accent too😂.
Yes good point. lol The only people that he's remotely kind to has the name Summers. lol
@@conkerzone Well, to be fair. Spike didn't need a soul to do good things. Yes he's always been selfish as a vampire but as a human he was kind. Unlike human Angel that was an abusive, violent, unfaithful drunkard who needed a soul for redemption. We all know what Angelous was like.
After the fallout from Joyce's death you can feel the pain of Dawn in Forever where she just can't accept her mother's death, and would do anything to being her back. This of course is a very basic human emotion experienced by many. You can see how Tara is annoyed with Willow for lending some assistance. Tara become very wary of Willow's increasing power, great perception by you re the Willow/Tara power shift, and the tensions increasing with them. Another good point raised IS the anxiety and pressure of having to deal with arranging funeral, wake, catering, etc even the admin involved after death in having to contact banks, pension companies, solicitors, etc etc etc it is really draining. Some terrific scenes with Dawn and Buffy at the end you can almost feel the anguish for the two of them. Brilliantly acted, again how this show did not receive awards is crazy, it should definitely be retrospectively recognised and awarded at the Emmys in the future for its contribution to TV drama.We know this show can be very light hearted with great comedy moments, but when it hits hard it really hits. This is what makes the Buffyverse shows so brilliant they cover every type of human emotion so well. On reflection I think you will watch all the episodes again and will appreciate them even more.
Glory really is the best big bad. Shes such a nutter in a hilarious way.
Two thoughts.
I'm so glad that they were able to have David Boreanaz appear in this episode.
Willow and Spike were both being catastrophically irresponsible in helping Dawn. IMO.
the show's always been pretty clear that spike's not big on responsibility.
Honestly, I’m not a Bangel shipper or really an Angel fan… but I have to say that the intimate moment they share in ‘Forever’ has got to be one of the greatest character interactions with another character there is. It details so much about Buffy and Angel and why they actually would have worked so much better as a couple when Buffy was not a minor. When they were both consenting adults and not obsessed with the “love conquers all” passion and urgency of true love. It’s by far my favourite Bangel moment - although I do have to say that, for me, a lot of Bangel moments are not comfortable for me to watch or even think about. They’re on a level playing field. Buffy now knows so much about herself as a person and as a Slayer. Angel has come to the understanding that while Buffy will always be his true love,… he doesn’t need to have her constantly in his life for him to be either a person and hero in his own right. Both of them are not in the best place either emotionally or mentally, - but they’re also not dependent on each other for their sense of happiness (or fulfilment I guess in Angel’s case since he isn’t allowed to feel happy or his soul goes bye-bye) They’re needy but they’re not desperate. It’s not a “oh the sky will fall if I can’t be with you” scenario. They’ve accepted their unfortunate circumstances to the point where it would actually be healthy for them to be together (sans the loss of a soul situation) rather than destructive. And they can now be there for each other in a way that actually feels necessary for them. It’s a wonderful little scene that makes you see the amazing growth in maturity for the both of them. And I can always appreciate that in a romantic relationship even if I’m not necessarily a supporter of it being one.
It’s kind of ironic that I love, appreciate and support Buffy and Angel being friends and confidants more than lovers when it’s that very thing that actually makes me see how their love can benefit them rather than be a detriment to and destroy them. But then I’ve always been a believer that true love is friendship on fire rather than a naive obsessive romance where the individuals in it can’t grow from and through it.
This moment right here is absolutely glorious. This is the beauty of love when it’s based in mutual trust and respect and understanding. When it’s fully matured.
My read on Spike is that he treats Dawn in some ways as more of an adult. I don’t think he really wanted to resurrect Joyce as much as he takes what Dawn says she needs at face value and wants to help. So when Dawn says resurrecting Joyce is what will help her, Spike is on board, but I really think that if she had changed her mind earlier Spike would have instantly on board with that too.
26:03 : ) only because we were right there with you ~~~ really loved your insights on the last two episodes, they bring out some of the deepest feelings in us.
Giles has so much on his plate. He has to take care of Buffy and Dawn, research Glory, run a business, and keep an eye on the rest of the gang as there isn't anyone else (save Spike) to help out. Willow's family has obviously disowned her due to her interests and relationship (not to mention her PTSD from her mother trying to burn her alive) so all she has is Tara. Tara wants to be her lover though not her mother.
Regarding Buffy being left alone with the body by the energency responders - my guess is that with Sunnydale's high mortality rate and other monster-related factors, emergency personnel are mightily overworked and just can't take the time to stick around...
Agreed. They didn't just leave to go hang out, they got called to another emergency. It's a matter of triage, a person in emotional distress will come second to a person in immediate physical danger.
Also not uncommon, depending on where you are and how emergency services operate there. When my father passed a year ago, his body was left in the bed where he died until he could be collected. It was hours. As painful as it can be, there are logistics and priorities involved. There is often a wait to collect the body when someone dies. It has been the case for everyone I've known who has died outside of a hospital.
Witches and wizards can raise the dead, they normally don't though. Either lack of the right ingredients, or lack of ability to pay. Those kind of resurrections don't always go well. Spike agreeing to help Dawn with the spell was probably prompted by two things; he knew that Dawn would most likely not have gone through with it, and the fact that if that kind of spell is done wrong, then the results would be cataclysmic, to say the least.
26:14 Wait a minute. Hold on. Are you suggesting that there’s some sort of connection between Ben and Glory? When did they morph from one to the other?? I don’t remember that scene. YOU are confused? You are confusing ME.
Yeah, she’s making very little sense here..
11:30 Cause Willow is intelligent but not particularly wise.
What Willow did was like giving the keys for a jet plane to a toddler. Irresponsible and stupid.
These episodes are always tough.
I love Spike but lets be fair, he is indeed a creeper. Do not forget he stalked buffy's house, stole underwear, kidnaped her and dru, had an altar for her with stoles pics and stuff. He has nos oul, his version of love is extremely twisted. He had also tried to kill xander and willow quite a few times.
Spike I think, like he said would do anything for the Summer's females and remember to him this supernatural stuff isn't weird to him. It's normal. I don't think the zombie Joyce was dangerous, otherwise he would have not helped.
I don't blame Spike as much as I blame Willow. Spike is griving after the Scoobies wouldn't allow him to do so (rightfully so as he's soulless) in the last episode and the beginning of this one. I'm not going to debate the differences or meaning between having a soul and soullessness, but I believe Spike and Dawn are teamed up due to the non closure they haven't received. Buffy had closure just by living through the opening scene of _The Body._ Willow's an addict that getting closer to the S6 line cross and the other Scooby Members are sad on behalf of a friend's mother dying. Dawn couldn't touch/reach her mom at the end of _The Body_ and didn't have the closure Buffy rcieved (according to the episode's audio commentary), so she and Spike (who was the closest non-relative who cared about her are living this episode as they are. Is it right? No! Is it understandable? Yes!
All he cares about is having sex with Buffy. Let's not act like it's a bigger than that. God I hate the female fans in the Buffyverse.
Don't believe me. Ask yourself....if Spike was ugly and not a good-looking guy, Would you be so willing to see him and Buffy together?🤔
Spike can’t grieve because he is soulless or he shouldn’t be allowed to grieve because he is soulless?
@@WillsonT011if he was still a great actor, probably yeah.
@@Girl4Music As stated in the original comment, "I'm not going to debate the differences or meaning between having a soul and soullessness," but I stand by what it says even if there was no card with the flowers and have a specific opinion about how it works.
Another fantastic episode of the best season of the show.
lol yeah definitely count that as a win!
Posting my BUFFY REWATCH recap for ‘Forever’. May contain spoilers.
This scene is very interesting to me because it shows with perfect clarity why Willow needs a grounding influence in Tara. Here Willow doesn’t understand why what Dawn is suggesting (resurrecting Joyce from the grave) is wrong. Tara is the one who explains why instead of Willow. You can see that Willow tries to step into the conversation and explain to Dawn but because she doesn’t get it herself, she’s not making the right points. Willow is usually the person you can ask questions to and she’ll answer as best she can. But when it comes to use of magic - doing spells to make something happen or change something - she isn’t the person to seek advice from given her own questionable and quickly evolving abusive relationship with magic. But Tara is. Tara keeps Willow on the straight and narrow. She is her moral compass. And if Tara had known that Willow purposefully gave Dawn the History of Witchcraft book, she would have immediately taken it back because she knew Dawn wasn’t playing around. She was upset and she was serious about bringing Joyce back to life. Willow wanted to help “answer some of her questions”, and I’m sure that intention was true, but she didn’t realize that Dawn would take it further than that. That all she would need to do is seek out the right person that will help her perform the spell.
At this point Willow is only refraining from abusing the Magicks because of Tara. Because she knows Tara would disagree and would stop her. Not because she knows it’s wrong to do so herself. She knows it’s dangerous. But she doesn’t know it’s wrong to do it. Tara has to constantly remind her why and how it is. This level of monitoring could be seen as a controlling method out of lack of trust or faith in her partner, if it weren’t for the fact that Willow needs to be monitored. Sure, at this point in the show, it doesn’t look like she could do any damage and therefore monitoring her use of magic wouldn’t be necessary. But that’s not the issue. It’s not when/where or how much/little she uses magic that’s the issue. It’s that Willow DOESN’T UNDERSTAND why/how it is WRONG to use it for personal gain, for frivolous reasons, and to alter the natural order of things. This is one of the many scenes that shows you why it’s so much more dangerous for Willow to use magic than anyone else. It’s the psychological aspect of it. It’s that in her mind, it’s not wrong, and so there will be no handbrakes on that ride down that rocky mountain.
My head canon is that Tara was taught early on by her mother in Wiccan tradition etc - along with the supposed 'McClay women' issue that she had to deal with. This gives Tara a much more grounded base for her magic, plus the Wiccan belief that the magic is returned threefold if misused.
Whereas we have never really seen Willow research or follow Wiccan traditions, hopefully Tara is mentoring her in those however Tara is a little bit in awe of Willow's power. This could lead to her sometimes not being as forceful or clear on the implications and not putting Willow in check so to speak. Totally understandable considering Tara's background and fears not also forgetting that she seemed a little isolated before making friends with Willow.
Also, Willow has been a teenage soldier so to speak. Events have often needed a quick resolution and magic has been required to solve issues, so to Willow it's a case of cause and effect instilling a belief that magic is the answer. She has not had a organised grounding in magic but combat training and some guidance from Giles and Jenny. Not enough to give her a healthy respect for why she shouldn't use magic so much. Plus she has a tendency to use magic to shortcut her own pain - selfish which leads to it backfiring often.
@@julianc3682 precisely. She’s uses it as an emotional crutch and she does the same with Tara.
Dawn's not my favorite character -- mainly because back when I first watched this show, I was like, WTF, who is this new character out of the blue and she's supposed to be Buffy's sister, plus she frustrated me at times. However... I was really proud of her character for tearing up that photo of her mom at the end of this episode. That must have been the hardest thing ever, but in the moment she knew it was the right thing to do, that no matter what, the person coming to the door would never be their mom, not the woman they knew and loved so much. Buffy and Dawn grieving together at long last was a hard scene but really heartening at the same time. They both needed that moment.
So Dakara, youre saying theres a connection between Ben and Glory? Lol
i feel like Willow kinda wanted Dawn to try the resurrection. I mean i would have tried too if magic actually worked, this is her mom after all
If she did she just would have done it herself. She just didn't think Dawn could use a history textbook's appendix to find actual spell books she'd then be able to not only locate and gain access to but then use. It'd be like giving someone a book on the general history of chemistry and a week later they've found a copy of the anarchists cookbook and used it to build explosives in their garage, it's completely unreasonable to think the person who gave them that history book should have expected that to happen.
@@troikas3353 i didn't thought of it that way, good point and it make sense indeed. So i guess Willow thought that would just ease her pain
Wait, so you think there is some sort of connection between Ben and Glory? Maybe they know each other?
‘Forever’ feels like a character-centric episode that never really centers around the character themselves in much the way ‘The Body’ does with Joyce. Except it doesn’t really work at all because it’s evidently not the point. If it was, we wouldn’t be following Dawn’s story with accepting death in it.
There is of course the argument that it really centers around the theme of “grief”. But when a specific character is tied to a theme predominantly, then the theme should be explored through them, not at the expense of them. There is no point in the episode where Dawn gets her subjective “look-through-my-eyes” moment that Willow gets in her character-centric ‘Something Blue’, and that’s given to pretty much every other character, including Willow, in ‘Forever’. We cannot feel sympathy for Dawn’s grief. We can only feel annoyed at her defensiveness. And that’s because the way the episode is written spends so much time affording that sympathetic character moment to everybody else but the centric character. And to be honest, the writing almost always does this with Dawn. It’s like their need to remind us that she is too young to understand her actions and choices overrides the requirement for the audience to better understand her. Thus, we get a character that largely remains a plot device than an actual living breathing human. Which feels weirdly and oddly ironic considering she began as a ball of green energy - something to use rather than relate to and resonate with. Which much of the season tries it's best to tell us is not true and does successfully. It’s the same sort of thing that’s the problem for me with Tara’s character. And perhaps that’s why they’re both the target in Season 5.
'Forever' honestly feels like a contradiction of this more than support and evidence for it. It's a shame.
Ghost whisperer is a good show for you I think.
Pretty heavy ep that Dawn's need to bring Joyce back kinda reminded me of the tale of the Monkey's Paw iirc, which presses the adage of "Be careful of what you wish for"... and showed how heavy the weight and the realization of the responsibility that Buffy will now have to bear on top of being the Chosen One to boot is.... Really questionable decisions by Spike to help and Willow to show Dawn the path of a questionable resurrection, even after seeing how alarmed that Tara is by the concept as an affront to the natural order of things..... I always found it odd/bad that Mr Summers never showed up/called even for emotional/moral support of his daughters who just lost their mother, which makes him a pretty awful demon in his own right. A worthy CTU for you today, and keep em coming!
Willow is opposed to raising Joyce not because it's morally wrong, but because it's dangerous.
So that is why Willow only repeats and mouths what Tara says and provides Dawn with a magic book with information on raising the dead in it, something that leads Tara, in "mother" and "big sis" mode, to question Willow's judgement...SPOILER: And thus will say season six and season seven after this set up...
Be assured. The only way a reaction to The Body could be bad is if a reactor showed no emotion.
The Ben/Glory thing never seemed ambiguous to me. Perhaps they are using Americanized phrases that lead you to think otherwise. Based on everything we've seen at this point it appears that they are the same person (inhabiting the same body), that they are completely aware of this, that they have differing views and each acts in their own self interest.
Maybe phrases like "you're going to run off and tell Glory, aren't you?" make it sound like Ben doesn't know they inhabit the same body? "Run off" here being used figuratively to mean "take the next opportunity" rather than the more literal "travel directly to her right now".
They do keep things a little mysterious, but to me it seems like they are fully aware of how they switch between Ben and Glory.
they are not the same person though, they are two people sharing a single body.
@@Henrik_Holst Yes, you're right. I probably should have just put it like that but I was using her phrasing and then clarifying it in the parenthesis.
@@Henrik_Holstlike Angel/Angelus
@@Girl4Music kinda yes!
That moment Angel appears does me in every time. That whole scene is one of the main reasons I've never been able to take the "Spuffy" shipper faction of the fandom seriously.
Oh I don’t know. Spuffy have many more of those kind of moments.
emotional realism...
I literally didn't get the point of Spike not leaving a card with the flowers until now. I always thought the implication was that they weren't for Joyce and he was going to give the flowers to Buffy instead, so I was confused about why Xander looked remorseful.
xx
God Buffy and the Scoobies treat Spike so awfully sometimes. While it’s understandable, it’s not easy to watch.
Least Willow understood that Spike was being sincere when she noticed that there was no name left on the card.
He can be a bastard but he did care for Joyce.
And we'll find out why later in the show...😉
Willow didn't give Dawn a book of spells, she gave her a history text book that discussed the risks and controversies of resurrection magic in the hopes it would help her understand what she was asking for. Because litteral no teen in the history of the planet has actually been stopped from doing something because an adult said "no, because I said so". She just didn't think about the fact the history book had annotated references to other texts with actual spells in them that Dawn would then not only actually find but then manage to steal from the magic shop, which that is honestly not Willow's fault.
Spike literally kidnapped Buffy and chained her up with the intention to force her to watch him murder his ex in a twisted attempt at emotionally manipulating her into loving him. He also stole her underwear and took hidden cam photos of her which he used to commision someone to build him a sex doll in her image with. Spike is a character made entirely out of red flags that for some reason people just ignore. Xander's slightly sarcastic tone is more than warranted. Spike isn''t just a creeper, he's a obsessive stalker with a violent history that includes murder who people keep not taking seriously as a threat and who Buffy keeps giving a pass to. Nothing good is going to come from that, yet so many people act all surprised whenever the literal serial killer with a knack for emotional abuse ends up doing something bad. I guess if you're attractive and charming enough you really can get away with anything.
Re Spike: I don't disagree. But James Marsters is just so freaking good...I can't help but cut Spike some slack. I see him as a soulless psychopath who, despite that, is trying to go against his nature. He's definitely an anomaly.
@@ernesthakey3396I’d say Angel/Angelus is the anomaly. There are other vampires/demons like Spike just none of them have significant screen time.