In wrestling strength is somewhat relevant but what far more relevant is cardio, mental tuffness, angles, pacing, set ups, and chain wrestling to get any offense off
@@kaiceecrane3884 I'm saying...Great misconception of wrestling. "it's all about strength!" I've been trying to dispel that myth for years. No more than or less than judo.--------------- (It's not just about strength. John Smith/Dan Gable/ Wade Schalles/Ben Askren/Cael Sanderson...some of the greatest, none a "powerhouse of strength".
Kataguruma is called firemans lift in wrestling. Also may I say that the video examples of "reckless" strength in wrestling is actually a highly skilled and honed craft and not really reckless at all. The ability to flip and scramble does not depend on excessive strength, a skilled wrestler could do that continuously for the duration of their match period. It however allows you to escape from almost anything, to reverse your opponents offence and make them vulnerable and absolutely devastate your opponent in terms of exhaustion. The concept of reckless and wasteful strength is known and understood is wrestling, it is not only considered inefficient but also ugly, vulgar and a pathway to injury. Those big athletic forceful looking moves in wrestling are done with precision timing and position, to catch an opponent when they are moving in the SAME position you want them to go.
Recklessness comes from the fact that you could get kneed very easily. Yes there is technique involved in a double leg takedown, strength seems to be much more important.
@@SeanWinters no bro. The strength aspect becomes important as the leg defense in wrestling is far more emphasized. The basic postion is designed to defend the legs so TDs are harder earned. There is a ridiculous amount of technique involved in getting a good wrestler to the ground. Often we will shoot once and execute 2 or three techniques before finishing. Transition is about 90% of wrestling
dude who are you telling this to? judokas will always think that “judo is just a technique” and wrestling is “just take it and throw” (even despite the fact that wrestlers do the same throws only without jackets, while judokas cannot do half of the moves without it ) . The funny thing is that if you take off the kimono from judokas, they start fighting like Greco-Romans (try to fight like Greco-Romans) but with sweeps. NoGi judo is called WRESTLING
I'm loving these deep dives into these topics, Chadi! I trained a judo variant school (atemi jujitsu) from 1998, continued to train judo twice a week as cross-training when I started BJJ in 2011. In 2014 I switched to freestyle wrestling and I've never looked back. I hate the new judo rules too much, I can actually use MORE judo in freestyle wrestling than in judo and it compliments my nogi BJJ better. Re MMA - shooting on a leg is always a risk but its a very high percentage set up.
I feel like shooting for a takedown is more about speed and forward momentum than strength. If you have speed, timing and good body mechanics, you'll seem much stronger than you are.
There are many many cases where "extreme" strength is used in nearly every judo tech. Seioi, any koshi waza, pickups....even newaza. Most people who really know the 'double leg" will tell you that despite having a gi, most judoka's moroti Gari is far less sophisticated. Also, that knee block by Tamura was pure skill with kuzushi. Please watch it objectively.
Well using judo in freestyle wrestling especially the ashi waza gives an edge, but because freestyle wrestling is indeed "free" you have more options in throws , also while the gi gives you some more techniques, from self defence perspective is first to learn how to grab and use the human body and the gi comes secondary. Anyway since all the techniques you showed are banned from judo you can't really argue in what sport they are better and even if you do, you must take into consideration the free wrestling angleing, the shooting which breaks the posture with velocity and Ofc the fact that in freestyle there are other ways of getting points than the throw and pin like back takes, knee drops which make the game less aesthetically pleasing but more accurate in advantages and disadvantages. I love judo but i have crazy respect for wrestling freestyle and Greco-Roman, I have trained in them all so I can clearly see how important all are for synthesizing a great Grabling game .
I see your point but it wasn't about which is superior, it's comparing different set ups that lead to the same technique (each person has their own preference), and i agree we should be taught both gi grips and no gi when learning to control someone.
@@Chadi yeah but it's a bit subjective to compare the superiority of technicality in techniques that wrestlers do for thousands of years , what I mean in other words is that wrestlers are great technicians along with powerful athletes and use angles and variations of their mainstream techniques that judoka haven't really thought about or used much, (crocodile rolls, knee drags, back takes, arm drags, wrist pins, naked gripping etc. ) amalgamation of the techniques in judo have some disadvantages, techniques are like living organisms it is the athlete who makes them work and constantly perfects them to work for him there aren't really perfect techniques or perfect athletes it's a constant struggle for perfection and as the human evolves so does his technique . Another thing is that if you take a judoka into freestyle wrestling conpetition he might achieve a lot but Ofc he won't be top notch until he learns back takes and shooting , if you take a judoka and put him into a Greco-Roman competition he will get absolutely crushed, believe me, it's not only the toughness and athleticism, those guys really train their basics but that's another story.
Brilliantly put! But there are judokas who wrestled one example is my own sensei! Olympian in Beijing 2008 (finished 7th) and got 2nd place in the nationals when transioned to freestyle wrestling, I'm sure she's not the only one, judokas understand leverage angles, positioning, it's not all about the gi. Judokas might lose in wrestling cause they're out of their element, you can say the same in reverse, put a wrestler in a gi and with zero knowledge of submissions and chokes and kumi kata, he will get crushed against a judoka, there's a match on RUclips a wrestler tapped to an Ezekiel but that's one anecdote.
@@Chadi She transitioned from judo to freestyle not to Greco-Roman I assume? Judoka Ofc are good and understand a lot, leverage, submissions, gi etc. Wrestlers that transitioned to judo are average, judoka that transitioned to freestyle are great because of ashi waza ( ashi waza works in freestyle and it's less trained from freestyle wrestlers than shooting, giving an edge to the judoka) , judoka who transitioned to Greco-Roman are less than average most of the time and that's cause in Greco-Roman the gripping game is extremely sophisticated the slightest mistake in gripping and you lost the fight , I really want you to test it with a Greco-Roman wrestling athlete who competed atleast in 3 nationals to see what I mean.
@@nikolaosmandamandiotis8970 I'm actually considering training Greco-roman wrestling parallel to judo once everything is good again, maybe twice a week, Greco roman and judo have things in common like they don't shoot and also the upright posture, the transition will be tough and i will suffer but learning kumi kata and greco grips will help me tremendously as a grappler and self defense cause that's my first concern.
A double leg in wrestling weather freestyle or folkstyle is based on speed and technique not strength. The major difference is that in wrestling they aren't allowed to grab the uniform.
You right, I have been telling people these for a while, I think mma kidnapped the words, people see takedowns and call it wrestling and submission and call it bjj.
Lol it's crazy, Chadi I think I commented on the video comparing Judo to Greco where I told you that i began arguing with a wrestling coach about the effectiveness of Judo vs Freestyle. Looking at the comparison of the two in the video the two cant necessarily be opposed. Judo allows for the movement and transition into the moves using the sleeves and lapels vs freestyle using your collar ties, elbow control or under hooks to transition into the take downs. My wrestling coach and I were just splitting haiit's not that one is better or worse, to me I see the validity of both depending on how they're being used. Excellent break down and video Chadi
Sam maybe I can offer some context wrestled all throughout high school/secondary school (both in greco roman and freestyle) and been doing Judo since I was 11ish, and you're right in that depends, wrestlers tend to dominate in the close range where they can grab the wrists/hand fight, wrap the opponent body/limbs with their legs or arms, and do all sorts of throws and tosses, Judo tends to dominate in the mid-range where they can angle off with a footsweep, counter throws, ne waza, trips, sacrifice throws, etc. You could make the argument that Judo if applied correctly could be the perfect counter to wrestling, I'll give an example Harai goshi, or an uchi mata are going to be your best bets against an aggressive wrestler pressing forward, since you're using timing, and their own force not strength, while hikomi gaeshi is best used as a counter when a wrestler goes for a failed single leg, along with a de ashi barai if you can set it up/chain properly; of course you could always use throws like Sumi gaeshi, and other sacrifice throws but they're alot risker and require alot more skill against an experienced and athletic wreslter. That being said any please do not underestimate a wrestler, they are strong, athletic, flexible, and are alot more technical than they're given credit for; if I ever decide to make a dedicated channel, would love to go into the nuances of this subject
Leverage can't one applied without force and our application of force is called strength. Judo requires strength, just like wrestling and there're people that prefer highly technical wrestling often due to a lack of strength, just like in judo. A wrestler relies on leverage and technique primarily and can easily dominate larger, stronger, untrained opponents just like in judo. This concept that judo is more technical and wrestling is more about enforcing power, is a false narrative, imo. Nice vid all and all.
Watch the video's of Jason Morris from Scotia, New York State. He was a collegiate wrestler and a Shodan / Judo Black Belt he really put his Judo skills and was able to dominate his wrestling matches
13:35 Respectfully disagree that wrestling double leg takedowns are unsafe, uncalculated and just diving in. Wrestling is perhaps not as gentle as the art form of judo, but it's still safe for all parties as long as you're using proper technique. Of the double leg takedowns, only lifts can potentially be dangerous should the attacker slam their opponent down (which is illegal). It's also safe for the attackers in MMA situations because double legs can be done at any level of elevation (i.e., from standing straight up to crouched low). The key element of danger for a grappler then would be distance, since kicks and knees can catch you midway. All takedowns require proper and effective set-ups, and double legs are no exception. As you're already aware, there are many hand fighting situations (e.g., 2-on-1, collar tie) that one must first clear to get into position to attack. Each situation takes into account distance, elevation, hand-placement, mat location (e.g., near the boundary), respective stances and styles, level of fatigue, timing, and probably more. It can't be just diving in. In fact, diving double legs are usually the worst kind because you tend to land on your stomach. Jordan Burroughs is famous for his long-reaching diving blast doubles, and he actually does land on his stomach from time to time. But he's also a master at setting them up and timing them, plus he's got ridiculous athleticism and reflexes, so he gets away with them. Just because some people seem to dive in with their shots doesn't mean they're always good.
Judo is ALOT more complex. Wrestlers are just more brute force based. A judoka with enough cardio to counter the pitbullish approach of a wrestler on the ground and the wrestler will have very little response, especially to limbs's bars and chokes.
@@AlexCruz-wc1yo I'm sorry but this is such a ridiculous comment lol, take a Division 1 NCAA wrestler and he'll throw a judoka around like it's nothing.
@@AlexCruz-wc1yo Much respect for Judo. But just plain false. Pound for pound, a matched top tier wrestler takes the equivalent judo athlete every time. Add on the cardio/endurance wrestling requires and it's not really a comparison. The wrestling examples in this this video compare poorly skilled wrestling moves "matched" to a judo equivalent move. Skilled wrestlers don't execute most moves like that. Contrary to what most believe wrestlers with technique and conditioning will destroy a strong wrestler every time. Muscle and strength is an added bonus to a conditioned, skilled wrestler. I respect Judo but they are just on different levels.
Kuzushi is better described as stealing opponent's structural balance. It's often employed in Judo by push-pull or pull-push when grabbing the gi...Wrestling has Kuzushi, though it's not called that term, and they steal structural balance by push'pulling or pull'pushing the opponent. Wrestlers will push the body then pull a limb, the neck or torso. Or pull the neck, limb or torso before shooting in.
Can also use it on the ground to set up submissions and sweeps, I tend to use butterfly guard so my hand gripping game has to be on point to use my kuzushi to off balance my opponent.
Good day to all! Anyone know if any videos of Judo pins used in freestyle wrestling? I saw one match where a pin was scored by an almost textbook Kese Gatame. However, from my recollection, most pins in freestyle come from cradles, etc. by the way are cradles considered a legal pin in Judo?
These examples of judo leg attacks that you've given are based purely on power. In wrestling the way you shoot allows you to take your opponent off balance whereas in the examples you've shown the judoka are just bending at the waste and using all their power to try to clean and jerk their opponent
The kuzushi is taken on the push in wrestling. In judo it's the pull. It's why wrestler do better in mma when there is no gi. Look at fedors takedowns. He does all the judo moves off the push
If you study American Collegiate Folk Wrestling you'll discover many submission holds (spladle, chicken wing, arm bar, chest compression, neck crank, half nelson, etc.etc.) and subtle strikes (neck snap downs and ear cuffing, etc.etc.) but due to rules there's no tapping out from painful submission. The painful submissions are used to gain compliance to achieve the pin. In Judo a body slam, or submission hold, can win the match but in Collegiate Folk Wrestling body slams & submission holds only further the match to achieve a pin on both shoulders touching the mat. . . . Of course American Submission Catch Wrestling is heavily submission based and a win can be achieved by submission alone rather than by a pin. . . . best fighter I ever knew in the U.S. Army was a short Albanian-American 5th Group Special Forces soldier whom was a Collegiate Folk style wrestling champion who also had a kodokan Judo black belt. I've witnessed him use folk style wrestling to take down a knifer who was trying to stab him then bounced the knifer's face off the concrete pavement til he went limp and took away the knife. He was a beast and feared by many in the Army despite being a smaller guy. BTW: Kizushi concept exists in Folk & Freestyle Wrestling but it's not called that by name. Push-pull, Pull-push, exists in American Folk & Freestyle Wrestling to use their force against them. Modern American Wrestling is very subtle. It's like invisible jiujitsu, many techniques can be felt but not often seen. Sadly unless you attend college or highschool it's difficult to find wrestling clubs in America, unless you train MMA where sometimes wrestlers teach.
I would really Like to See your breakdown of how the russian wrestlers (like Khabib Nurmagomedov and Khamzat Chimaev) system. And what are your thoughts on the best 3 to 5 takedowns for a street defense situation.?
The main risk of a fireman's carry (kata garuma) is being placed in a jigoku jime (crucifix and hell choke) if nage (the thrower) stalls or his momentum is stopped on the bottom. In American Folkstyle Wrestling the rule for takedowns is this: "TAKEDOWN - T2 - 2 points - Awarded after one of the neutral wrestlers gets behind the opponent and forces them down to the mat to their stomach or side or knees or weight on all fours OR takes them directly to their back or buttocks without getting behind them AND becomes the offensive wrestler. Neutral to Offense is a twopoint takedown. If you go from neutral to defense, you were taken down." Basically they need to be taken down to a position where you are in control of them. Their feet will generally be of the mat and unable to exert force against you, because either their torso or hips are on the floor or all their weight are planted on the floor. Freestyle wrestling awards according to the amplitude of the throw while American Folkstyle wrestling awards according to whether control is established after the takedown.
Speaking of “non-judo” judo techniques. There was a Russian Judoka that was famous for his “anti-judo”. The “anti-judo” in question, from what I found, was a knee lift throw (don’t know the actual name in judo). Reason why it’s “anti-judo” is it seems more “strength and hard” as a technique. How it works (from what I could tell) is the attacker would first lift the opponent’s contra-lateral leg via the knee with his own (so your right to the opponent’s left and vice versa) then the attacker lifts the opponent into the air gripping the opponent’s gi lapels with his contralateral hand, and from what I’ve seen the opponent ends up suspended in the air for a split second, before dropping/slamming/throwing them onto their back on the mat
I believe you mean Shota Khabareli and the anti-judo technique is the Khabareli throw. The technique was adjusted from Georgian folk wrestling, if I remember correctly. ruclips.net/video/P8xlT532mo4/видео.html ruclips.net/video/ZqeP648QK3A/видео.html
Great video! One question: I saw on the net a lot of judokas who wrestle without gi against freestyle wrestlers and judokas win. I don't know the level of the guys and I'm a boxer so I don't know about grappling but i love it, so i wonder how judokas could be so strong even they don't take the legs? I know that judo used to take legs but today many of them don't know that's techniques. Thank you
Two beautiful Art forms. Love them both. If I could pick 3 martial arts to master, judo and wrestling would comprise two of three. Boxing the other one.
Ah yes, the ankle pick. Let's all take a moment of silence for our brother, Tony Ferguson, who threatened Werdum, a HEAVYWEIGHT high level BJJ practitioner, with an ankle pick while standing mere inches from the giant Fabricio Werdum, very clearly within arms reach
Judo is another form of wrestling. Kano incorporated the gi while the samurai did not rely on gi. Rather they executed tachi waza with worn armour. So for those who claim judo cannot be executed without a gi, it's the principles adopted from the samurai that makes judo effective
Kuzushi is not a technique where you hold the gi. Kuzushi literally is a term meaning "unbalancing". There are many ways kuzushi can be caused uncluding direct, indirect, diversion, forced etc.
It’s a shame grabbing the legs is illegal in Judo. As young Wrestler I took Judo off and From four years old to eight years old. In judo tournaments, I could takedown Judokas with these, around that time they outlawed grabbing the legs, but it didn’t matter my Greco-Roman Wrestling still took them down. Judo has become very watered down in competition Judo. I stopped taking Judo because I lost interest because of the rule changes, I only competed in Judo when there was no Wrestling tournaments when I was young. Judo is a self-defense, and the officials who change the rules have damaged the purity of the art. I have taught UFC and Bellator Champions Wrestling takedowns and Greco-Roman Wrestling all were BJJ Competitors. So I’m not just blowing smoke. As far as this Commentator saying Wrestler‘s, we hunched over, not true. In Freestyle and Folkstyle, Wrestlers are Quasi-Vertical which is totally different than hunching over. In Greco-Roman, Wrestlers are bent at the knee and Wrestle upward. 🙏🏻🇺🇸
cool. Very nice content. You seem very knowledgeable. Quick question (I know it's gonna be difficult): What is THE best martial art/combat sport to train in for the most benefit in effective self-defense / combatives ? thanks
@@Chadi ok, also amongst others like MMA, JiuJitsu, Combat Sambo, etc.? don't you think it is bullshit that Judo has so many techniques deemed illegal and as might be somewhat limited from a combatives perspective?
@@bradaen Hello so MMA is not a style in the traditional sense, there is only a unified ruleset and of course over the years certain styles and techniques have cemented themselves as part of what we nowadays consider to be MMA but theoretically, what comes to mind when you think MMA could change over night. Judo techniques have been very successfully used in MMA and therefore also constitute a part of it. BJJ is a direct descendant from Judo ground grappling and Sambo is also a descendant art of Judo. What Chadi probably means when he recommends you to train Judo is that, while it is true that the current ruleset makes the style more restrictive than other counterparts, we must still remember that most of what we associate with effective and good combat orientated grappling as seen in MMA, ultimately stems from Judo, with wrestling being the one major outlier. Judo has incredible stand up grappling, and also a solid ground game, it is both a martial art and a highly competitive sport that places a lot of value on athleticism, therefore it is the most holistic choice if you want a style thats both a sport and art which teaches you good self defence, even though it has comparatively restrictive rules.
your description of kuzushi is entirely incorrect.It refers to unbalancing prior to the throw itself and is not about getting the opponent on their toes nor is it exclusive to judo,its an integral part of every sport grappling art,wrestling included.Its extremely difficult to get double legs in judo because to jacket grip keeps you at a distance.
No it isn't! I'm aware that it is for unbalancing i mentioned the toes to explain that no matter the size or weight you can move them easily, don't take everything at face value
What about what he said was wrong? Neil Adams has a whole video explanation at a seminar re: the point about the toes re: kuzushi, and it's delusional to think that kuzushi isn't part of every grappling art, at least to some extent. Watch Mongolian wrestling, for instance, or even Sumo, and try to tell me that they lack understanding of kuzushi
While in MMA there are no gi, there are cloths in self-defense or street fighting. And pants are good enough. Shorts, long pants, jeans, which ever... they are good enough. Especially, shirts and jackets. Gi are the only way Judo can be effective. Remember they do teach Judo with no gi and have since it began. I remember seeing old footage of students in Japan, training with no gi top on.
You actually lack understanding of the nuances of wrestling, even free level change leg shot when done properly is not just rushing in, you step your foot between theirs so that when you drop levels your shoulder pushes into the hip controlling their level and posture to the extent possible during any double leg, gi, or no-gi, and your arms control the knees. Sure people do shot from the outside, but that's a basic technique mistake, not a technique in itself: hence the reason the only videos you have like that are highschool kids. You aren't going to see an olympian shoot like that.
Pure wrestling also allows positioning to execute such as the opponents momentum.. wrestling is not 100% strength oriented maybe greco roman has more emphasis. High level wrestlers make you feel like a ball bouncing they are very light and use strength certain stages
Can someone explain to me the phrase "low risk/high reward" techniques? People say that wrestling is better for BJJ since it has low risk/high reward techniques. I suppose all martial arts have those types of techniques. Thanks :)
@@Chadi Thanks man :) I started BJJ 3 months ago and then Corona happened.....I wanted to transition to MMA....I did Shotokan karate for 10 years and a little bit of Kyokushin karate.... When I asked my instructor what are the easiest judo throws to learn that I can use on the street, he said that low risk/high reward techniques are the way to go. But the thing is he never told me what are those moves or techniques :)
GOD Loved you enough to send His Son JESUS for you and if you will believe in Him and at baptized in THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT and turn from your sins you will be ( if you haven’t already)
In wrestling strength is somewhat relevant but what far more relevant is cardio, mental tuffness, angles, pacing, set ups, and chain wrestling to get any offense off
Great misconception of wrestling. "it's all about strength!" I've been trying to dispel that myth for years. No more than or less than judo.
@@rvfree1 are you quoting me or the video?
@@kaiceecrane3884 I'm saying...Great misconception of wrestling. "it's all about strength!" I've been trying to dispel that myth for years. No more than or less than judo.--------------- (It's not just about strength. John Smith/Dan Gable/ Wade Schalles/Ben Askren/Cael Sanderson...some of the greatest, none a "powerhouse of strength".
@@rvfree1 yes, that's was my point
No way baby all about the gains
Kataguruma is called firemans lift in wrestling. Also may I say that the video examples of "reckless" strength in wrestling is actually a highly skilled and honed craft and not really reckless at all. The ability to flip and scramble does not depend on excessive strength, a skilled wrestler could do that continuously for the duration of their match period. It however allows you to escape from almost anything, to reverse your opponents offence and make them vulnerable and absolutely devastate your opponent in terms of exhaustion. The concept of reckless and wasteful strength is known and understood is wrestling, it is not only considered inefficient but also ugly, vulgar and a pathway to injury. Those big athletic forceful looking moves in wrestling are done with precision timing and position, to catch an opponent when they are moving in the SAME position you want them to go.
Recklessness comes from the fact that you could get kneed very easily.
Yes there is technique involved in a double leg takedown, strength seems to be much more important.
@@SeanWinters no bro. The strength aspect becomes important as the leg defense in wrestling is far more emphasized. The basic postion is designed to defend the legs so TDs are harder earned. There is a ridiculous amount of technique involved in getting a good wrestler to the ground. Often we will shoot once and execute 2 or three techniques before finishing. Transition is about 90% of wrestling
yes fireman lift in wwe that s jhon cena s finisher aa
@@kimeyabo144 pro wrestling is bs
dude who are you telling this to? judokas will always think that “judo is just a technique” and wrestling is “just take it and throw” (even despite the fact that wrestlers do the same throws only without jackets, while judokas cannot do half of the moves without it ) . The funny thing is that if you take off the kimono from judokas, they start fighting like Greco-Romans (try to fight like Greco-Romans) but with sweeps.
NoGi judo is called WRESTLING
I'm loving these deep dives into these topics, Chadi! I trained a judo variant school (atemi jujitsu) from 1998, continued to train judo twice a week as cross-training when I started BJJ in 2011. In 2014 I switched to freestyle wrestling and I've never looked back. I hate the new judo rules too much, I can actually use MORE judo in freestyle wrestling than in judo and it compliments my nogi BJJ better. Re MMA - shooting on a leg is always a risk but its a very high percentage set up.
Thank you for sharing Stephan!
Then there is catch wrestling. Which is like freestyle wrestling with submission. Or Luta Livre which is catch wrestling and judo.
I feel like shooting for a takedown is more about speed and forward momentum than strength. If you have speed, timing and good body mechanics, you'll seem much stronger than you are.
There are many many cases where "extreme" strength is used in nearly every judo tech. Seioi, any koshi waza, pickups....even newaza. Most people who really know the 'double leg" will tell you that despite having a gi, most judoka's moroti Gari is far less sophisticated.
Also, that knee block by Tamura was pure skill with kuzushi. Please watch it objectively.
Well using judo in freestyle wrestling especially the ashi waza gives an edge, but because freestyle wrestling is indeed "free" you have more options in throws , also while the gi gives you some more techniques, from self defence perspective is first to learn how to grab and use the human body and the gi comes secondary. Anyway since all the techniques you showed are banned from judo you can't really argue in what sport they are better and even if you do, you must take into consideration the free wrestling angleing, the shooting which breaks the posture with velocity and Ofc the fact that in freestyle there are other ways of getting points than the throw and pin like back takes, knee drops which make the game less aesthetically pleasing but more accurate in advantages and disadvantages. I love judo but i have crazy respect for wrestling freestyle and Greco-Roman, I have trained in them all so I can clearly see how important all are for synthesizing a great Grabling game .
I see your point but it wasn't about which is superior, it's comparing different set ups that lead to the same technique (each person has their own preference), and i agree we should be taught both gi grips and no gi when learning to control someone.
@@Chadi yeah but it's a bit subjective to compare the superiority of technicality in techniques that wrestlers do for thousands of years , what I mean in other words is that wrestlers are great technicians along with powerful athletes and use angles and variations of their mainstream techniques that judoka haven't really thought about or used much, (crocodile rolls, knee drags, back takes, arm drags, wrist pins, naked gripping etc. ) amalgamation of the techniques in judo have some disadvantages, techniques are like living organisms it is the athlete who makes them work and constantly perfects them to work for him there aren't really perfect techniques or perfect athletes it's a constant struggle for perfection and as the human evolves so does his technique . Another thing is that if you take a judoka into freestyle wrestling conpetition he might achieve a lot but Ofc he won't be top notch until he learns back takes and shooting , if you take a judoka and put him into a Greco-Roman competition he will get absolutely crushed, believe me, it's not only the toughness and athleticism, those guys really train their basics but that's another story.
Brilliantly put! But there are judokas who wrestled one example is my own sensei! Olympian in Beijing 2008 (finished 7th) and got 2nd place in the nationals when transioned to freestyle wrestling, I'm sure she's not the only one, judokas understand leverage angles, positioning, it's not all about the gi. Judokas might lose in wrestling cause they're out of their element, you can say the same in reverse, put a wrestler in a gi and with zero knowledge of submissions and chokes and kumi kata, he will get crushed against a judoka, there's a match on RUclips a wrestler tapped to an Ezekiel but that's one anecdote.
@@Chadi She transitioned from judo to freestyle not to Greco-Roman I assume? Judoka Ofc are good and understand a lot, leverage, submissions, gi etc. Wrestlers that transitioned to judo are average, judoka that transitioned to freestyle are great because of ashi waza ( ashi waza works in freestyle and it's less trained from freestyle wrestlers than shooting, giving an edge to the judoka) , judoka who transitioned to Greco-Roman are less than average most of the time and that's cause in Greco-Roman the gripping game is extremely sophisticated the slightest mistake in gripping and you lost the fight , I really want you to test it with a Greco-Roman wrestling athlete who competed atleast in 3 nationals to see what I mean.
@@nikolaosmandamandiotis8970 I'm actually considering training Greco-roman wrestling parallel to judo once everything is good again, maybe twice a week, Greco roman and judo have things in common like they don't shoot and also the upright posture, the transition will be tough and i will suffer but learning kumi kata and greco grips will help me tremendously as a grappler and self defense cause that's my first concern.
A double leg in wrestling weather freestyle or folkstyle is based on speed and technique not strength. The major difference is that in wrestling they aren't allowed to grab the uniform.
Judo is a form of Wrestling with different emphasis in technique while they both are a form of Grappling all together.
You right, I have been telling people these for a while, I think mma kidnapped the words, people see takedowns and call it wrestling and submission and call it bjj.
Lol it's crazy, Chadi I think I commented on the video comparing Judo to Greco where I told you that i began arguing with a wrestling coach about the effectiveness of Judo vs Freestyle. Looking at the comparison of the two in the video the two cant necessarily be opposed. Judo allows for the movement and transition into the moves using the sleeves and lapels vs freestyle using your collar ties, elbow control or under hooks to transition into the take downs. My wrestling coach and I were just splitting haiit's not that one is better or worse, to me I see the validity of both depending on how they're being used. Excellent break down and video Chadi
Thank you so much!
Sam maybe I can offer some context wrestled all throughout high school/secondary school (both in greco roman and freestyle) and been doing Judo since I was 11ish, and you're right in that depends, wrestlers tend to dominate in the close range where they can grab the wrists/hand fight, wrap the opponent body/limbs with their legs or arms, and do all sorts of throws and tosses, Judo tends to dominate in the mid-range where they can angle off with a footsweep, counter throws, ne waza, trips, sacrifice throws, etc. You could make the argument that Judo if applied correctly could be the perfect counter to wrestling, I'll give an example Harai goshi, or an uchi mata are going to be your best bets against an aggressive wrestler pressing forward, since you're using timing, and their own force not strength, while hikomi gaeshi is best used as a counter when a wrestler goes for a failed single leg, along with a de ashi barai if you can set it up/chain properly; of course you could always use throws like Sumi gaeshi, and other sacrifice throws but they're alot risker and require alot more skill against an experienced and athletic wreslter. That being said any please do not underestimate a wrestler, they are strong, athletic, flexible, and are alot more technical than they're given credit for; if I ever decide to make a dedicated channel, would love to go into the nuances of this subject
Leverage can't one applied without force and our application of force is called strength. Judo requires strength, just like wrestling and there're people that prefer highly technical wrestling often due to a lack of strength, just like in judo. A wrestler relies on leverage and technique primarily and can easily dominate larger, stronger, untrained opponents just like in judo. This concept that judo is more technical and wrestling is more about enforcing power, is a false narrative, imo. Nice vid all and all.
Well said
Watch the video's of Jason Morris from Scotia, New York State. He was a collegiate wrestler and a Shodan /
Judo Black Belt he really put his Judo skills and was able to dominate his wrestling matches
He's an absolute artist
As a wrestler and judoka myself, I completely agree with everything here
13:35 Respectfully disagree that wrestling double leg takedowns are unsafe, uncalculated and just diving in.
Wrestling is perhaps not as gentle as the art form of judo, but it's still safe for all parties as long as you're using proper technique. Of the double leg takedowns, only lifts can potentially be dangerous should the attacker slam their opponent down (which is illegal). It's also safe for the attackers in MMA situations because double legs can be done at any level of elevation (i.e., from standing straight up to crouched low). The key element of danger for a grappler then would be distance, since kicks and knees can catch you midway.
All takedowns require proper and effective set-ups, and double legs are no exception. As you're already aware, there are many hand fighting situations (e.g., 2-on-1, collar tie) that one must first clear to get into position to attack. Each situation takes into account distance, elevation, hand-placement, mat location (e.g., near the boundary), respective stances and styles, level of fatigue, timing, and probably more. It can't be just diving in.
In fact, diving double legs are usually the worst kind because you tend to land on your stomach. Jordan Burroughs is famous for his long-reaching diving blast doubles, and he actually does land on his stomach from time to time. But he's also a master at setting them up and timing them, plus he's got ridiculous athleticism and reflexes, so he gets away with them. Just because some people seem to dive in with their shots doesn't mean they're always good.
Thank you Joey! Like i said I'm no wrestler, thank you for correcting the information
Judo is ALOT more complex. Wrestlers are just more brute force based. A judoka with enough cardio to counter the pitbullish approach of a wrestler on the ground and the wrestler will have very little response, especially to limbs's bars and chokes.
@@AlexCruz-wc1yo I hope this comes from a place of knowledge, and not some observations of olympic or collegiate wrestling.
@@AlexCruz-wc1yo I'm sorry but this is such a ridiculous comment lol, take a Division 1 NCAA wrestler and he'll throw a judoka around like it's nothing.
@@AlexCruz-wc1yo Much respect for Judo. But just plain false. Pound for pound, a matched top tier wrestler takes the equivalent judo athlete every time. Add on the cardio/endurance wrestling requires and it's not really a comparison. The wrestling examples in this this video compare poorly skilled wrestling moves "matched" to a judo equivalent move. Skilled wrestlers don't execute most moves like that. Contrary to what most believe wrestlers with technique and conditioning will destroy a strong wrestler every time. Muscle and strength is an added bonus to a conditioned, skilled wrestler. I respect Judo but they are just on different levels.
Kuzushi is better described as stealing opponent's structural balance. It's often employed in Judo by push-pull or pull-push when grabbing the gi...Wrestling has Kuzushi, though it's not called that term, and they steal structural balance by push'pulling or pull'pushing the opponent. Wrestlers will push the body then pull a limb, the neck or torso. Or pull the neck, limb or torso before shooting in.
I'm no wrestler thank you for this information
Can also use it on the ground to set up submissions and sweeps, I tend to use butterfly guard so my hand gripping game has to be on point to use my kuzushi to off balance my opponent.
Exactly. Similar to judo grips, you've got collar ties, inside ties, 2 on 1s etc to off balance your opponent, very much like kuzushi.
Good day to all! Anyone know if any videos of Judo pins used in freestyle wrestling? I saw one match where a pin was scored by an almost textbook Kese Gatame. However, from my recollection, most pins in freestyle come from cradles, etc. by the way are cradles considered a legal pin in Judo?
Love old judo😭
Same
What the difference can you tell me Iam 16 years I dont have much experience
@@Brucelee-pv6uf new Judo ruleset doesnt allow grabbing the legs and they do not use submissions as much anymore.
@@rockywalker3469 so they just use throws ?
What do you thing is better old or new ?
@@Brucelee-pv6uf I personally have no experience in judo but I think the old rules are more complete as a grappling art. Are you from Turkey?
Thanks Chadi. I just started wrestling and judo. This is super informative!
These examples of judo leg attacks that you've given are based purely on power. In wrestling the way you shoot allows you to take your opponent off balance whereas in the examples you've shown the judoka are just bending at the waste and using all their power to try to clean and jerk their opponent
I discussed that it can be both (power and technique), for example the kuzushi and the ippon seoi nage feint
@mateas786 I literally did not say that it was all power
@@Chadi what he means is that the leg attacks in your example are not done using good technique,they are all strength shown in the video.
The kuzushi is taken on the push in wrestling. In judo it's the pull. It's why wrestler do better in mma when there is no gi. Look at fedors takedowns. He does all the judo moves off the push
As a wrestler, this was fascinating to watch. To hear strength considered with such disdain is so interesting. Not bad or good but so interesting.
If you study American Collegiate Folk Wrestling you'll discover many submission holds (spladle, chicken wing, arm bar, chest compression, neck crank, half nelson, etc.etc.) and subtle strikes (neck snap downs and ear cuffing, etc.etc.) but due to rules there's no tapping out from painful submission. The painful submissions are used to gain compliance to achieve the pin. In Judo a body slam, or submission hold, can win the match but in Collegiate Folk Wrestling body slams & submission holds only further the match to achieve a pin on both shoulders touching the mat. . . . Of course American Submission Catch Wrestling is heavily submission based and a win can be achieved by submission alone rather than by a pin. . . . best fighter I ever knew in the U.S. Army was a short Albanian-American 5th Group Special Forces soldier whom was a Collegiate Folk style wrestling champion who also had a kodokan Judo black belt. I've witnessed him use folk style wrestling to take down a knifer who was trying to stab him then bounced the knifer's face off the concrete pavement til he went limp and took away the knife. He was a beast and feared by many in the Army despite being a smaller guy. BTW: Kizushi concept exists in Folk & Freestyle Wrestling but it's not called that by name. Push-pull, Pull-push, exists in American Folk & Freestyle Wrestling to use their force against them. Modern American Wrestling is very subtle. It's like invisible jiujitsu, many techniques can be felt but not often seen. Sadly unless you attend college or highschool it's difficult to find wrestling clubs in America, unless you train MMA where sometimes wrestlers teach.
Thanks man I'll check them out
I love this Channel man! Keep up the good work!
Thank you
I would really Like to See your breakdown of how the russian wrestlers (like Khabib Nurmagomedov and Khamzat Chimaev) system.
And what are your thoughts on the best 3 to 5 takedowns for a street defense situation.?
ruclips.net/video/X0liVM3pUEo/видео.html
Wrestling is just superior and enterteining by far
Another great video 👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you Claes! Much appreciated
The main risk of a fireman's carry (kata garuma) is being placed in a jigoku jime (crucifix and hell choke) if nage (the thrower) stalls or his momentum is stopped on the bottom. In American Folkstyle Wrestling the rule for takedowns is this: "TAKEDOWN - T2 - 2 points - Awarded after one of the neutral wrestlers gets behind
the opponent and forces them down to the mat to their stomach or side or knees or weight on all fours OR takes them directly to their back or buttocks without getting behind them AND becomes the offensive wrestler. Neutral to Offense is a twopoint takedown. If you go from neutral to defense, you were taken down." Basically they need to be taken down to a position where you are in control of them. Their feet will generally be of the mat and unable to exert force against you, because either their torso or hips are on the floor or all their weight are planted on the floor. Freestyle wrestling awards according to the amplitude of the throw while American Folkstyle wrestling awards according to whether control is established after the takedown.
Thank you for this! I'm trying to learn more about wrestling and comparing common techniques with judo even if they banned from competition
Awesome video! Who was the wrestler in the blue who was doing the single leg takedown?
Speaking of “non-judo” judo techniques. There was a Russian Judoka that was famous for his “anti-judo”. The “anti-judo” in question, from what I found, was a knee lift throw (don’t know the actual name in judo). Reason why it’s “anti-judo” is it seems more “strength and hard” as a technique.
How it works (from what I could tell) is the attacker would first lift the opponent’s contra-lateral leg via the knee with his own (so your right to the opponent’s left and vice versa) then the attacker lifts the opponent into the air gripping the opponent’s gi lapels with his contralateral hand, and from what I’ve seen the opponent ends up suspended in the air for a split second, before dropping/slamming/throwing them onto their back on the mat
I believe you mean Shota Khabareli and the anti-judo technique is the Khabareli throw. The technique was adjusted from Georgian folk wrestling, if I remember correctly.
ruclips.net/video/P8xlT532mo4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/ZqeP648QK3A/видео.html
Take a look at Alexandre Vieira, fireman carry loop choke submission
Great video! One question: I saw on the net a lot of judokas who wrestle without gi against freestyle wrestlers and judokas win. I don't know the level of the guys and I'm a boxer so I don't know about grappling but i love it, so i wonder how judokas could be so strong even they don't take the legs? I know that judo used to take legs but today many of them don't know that's techniques.
Thank you
Two beautiful Art forms. Love them both. If I could pick 3 martial arts to master, judo and wrestling would comprise two of three. Boxing the other one.
Make a video about judo compare to cacc the father of freestyle folkstyle and luta livre wrestling
Will do
Great video! my only complaint would be that the title says Freestyle, but the clips you showed were mostly from Folkstyle
I apologise I'm not a wrestler, i was going for the techniques shown in the video and discussing them being common in judo
No worries man you seem to get the main idea behind the movements and only used the clips in context of what you were talking about👌
@@regalisexa3869 thank you for understanding
Fighting is never gentle that is why wrestling is more practical than judo
judo is not gentle,gentle art refers to its use of leverage and momentum and you have more leverage with the jacket.
Lol Judo is gentle? The king of smashing and throwing people into the ground? Ok
Ah yes, the ankle pick. Let's all take a moment of silence for our brother, Tony Ferguson, who threatened Werdum, a HEAVYWEIGHT high level BJJ practitioner, with an ankle pick while standing mere inches from the giant Fabricio Werdum, very clearly within arms reach
Post a vido of flavio canto doing kata garuma. Its so smooth.
Chadi you are a wealth of information. Thank you for sharing your martial wisdom.
🙇🏻♂️
Man old school judo looks so dope
Judo is another form of wrestling. Kano incorporated the gi while the samurai did not rely on gi. Rather they executed tachi waza with worn armour. So for those who claim judo cannot be executed without a gi, it's the principles adopted from the samurai that makes judo effective
Kuzushi is not a technique where you hold the gi. Kuzushi literally is a term meaning "unbalancing". There are many ways kuzushi can be caused uncluding direct, indirect, diversion, forced etc.
It’s a shame grabbing the legs is illegal in Judo. As young Wrestler I took Judo off and From four years old to eight years old. In judo tournaments, I could takedown Judokas with these, around that time they outlawed grabbing the legs, but it didn’t matter my Greco-Roman Wrestling still took them down. Judo has become very watered down in competition Judo. I stopped taking Judo because I lost interest because of the rule changes, I only competed in Judo when there was no Wrestling tournaments when I was young. Judo is a self-defense, and the officials who change the rules have damaged the purity of the art.
I have taught UFC and Bellator Champions Wrestling takedowns and Greco-Roman Wrestling all were BJJ Competitors. So I’m not just blowing smoke. As far as this Commentator saying Wrestler‘s, we hunched over, not true. In Freestyle and Folkstyle, Wrestlers are Quasi-Vertical which is totally different than hunching over. In Greco-Roman, Wrestlers are bent at the knee and Wrestle upward. 🙏🏻🇺🇸
Jordan Burroughs and Kyle fake would wreck anyone in the Judo class depending on the point scoring system
Thank you I share all your videos on the catch wrestling page on Facebook
Man thank you so much! That's amazing I'm very thankful
Aslo sir can you do a video on the Japanese catch wrestling called saw (submissions arts wrestling) right that's what's it's called.
@@MatthewJohnson-ls8qf like Sakuraba and Imanari??
It might be I'm not sure I seen a video on youtube about it from didos they rep a company called gotch fightwear
@@MatthewJohnson-ls8qf I'll check it out!
Great breakdown chadi.
Thank you
cool. Very nice content. You seem very knowledgeable. Quick question (I know it's gonna be difficult): What is THE best martial art/combat sport to train in for the most benefit in effective self-defense / combatives ? thanks
I would advise Judo
@@Chadi ok, also amongst others like MMA, JiuJitsu, Combat Sambo, etc.? don't you think it is bullshit that Judo has so many techniques deemed illegal and as might be somewhat limited from a combatives perspective?
@@bradaen Hello so MMA is not a style in the traditional sense, there is only a unified ruleset and of course over the years certain styles and techniques have cemented themselves as part of what we nowadays consider to be MMA but theoretically, what comes to mind when you think MMA could change over night. Judo techniques have been very successfully used in MMA and therefore also constitute a part of it. BJJ is a direct descendant from Judo ground grappling and Sambo is also a descendant art of Judo. What Chadi probably means when he recommends you to train Judo is that, while it is true that the current ruleset makes the style more restrictive than other counterparts, we must still remember that most of what we associate with effective and good combat orientated grappling as seen in MMA, ultimately stems from Judo, with wrestling being the one major outlier. Judo has incredible stand up grappling, and also a solid ground game, it is both a martial art and a highly competitive sport that places a lot of value on athleticism, therefore it is the most holistic choice if you want a style thats both a sport and art which teaches you good self defence, even though it has comparatively restrictive rules.
@@Yourdrunkuncledave cool. Thanks for the expounded answer
@@bradaen My pleasure :D
If fs wrestlers learn submissions also. No one and none kind of sport can beat them
that would be called "Catch wrestling"
If submission techniques wre allowed in a fight ; how would GR and FS wrestlers deal with this situation ?
Catch Wrestlers can deal, no problem.
@@CommunismiEstCacas that's right huh..Submission technique is great
How to takedown a giant like big show as a 5'6 guy ?? Is it even possible
Ankle picks and low singles are your friends
Ono vs Kyle Dake.
Yes!
Who's the wrestler in yellow singlet? He got decent Judo skills
your description of kuzushi is entirely incorrect.It refers to unbalancing prior to the throw itself and is not about getting the opponent on their toes nor is it exclusive to judo,its an integral part of every sport grappling art,wrestling included.Its extremely difficult to get double legs in judo because to jacket grip keeps you at a distance.
No it isn't! I'm aware that it is for unbalancing i mentioned the toes to explain that no matter the size or weight you can move them easily, don't take everything at face value
What about what he said was wrong? Neil Adams has a whole video explanation at a seminar re: the point about the toes re: kuzushi, and it's delusional to think that kuzushi isn't part of every grappling art, at least to some extent. Watch Mongolian wrestling, for instance, or even Sumo, and try to tell me that they lack understanding of kuzushi
While in MMA there are no gi, there are cloths in self-defense or street fighting.
And pants are good enough. Shorts, long pants, jeans, which ever... they are good enough. Especially, shirts and jackets. Gi are the only way Judo can be effective. Remember they do teach Judo with no gi and have since it began. I remember seeing old footage of students in Japan, training with no gi top on.
Good stuff!
Katagurma is easier if ur shorter, less distance to lift.
Exactly
4:47 the equivalent to single-leg takedown in Judo is Kuchiki-taoshi, not Morote-gari
Morote gari means two Hand reap, so this can apply to single leg as well, kuchiki taoshi grabs the leg with one hand only.
You actually lack understanding of the nuances of wrestling, even free level change leg shot when done properly is not just rushing in, you step your foot between theirs so that when you drop levels your shoulder pushes into the hip controlling their level and posture to the extent possible during any double leg, gi, or no-gi, and your arms control the knees. Sure people do shot from the outside, but that's a basic technique mistake, not a technique in itself: hence the reason the only videos you have like that are highschool kids. You aren't going to see an olympian shoot like that.
Thank you for clearing it out
If only leg grabs weren't banned, man..
Pure wrestling also allows positioning to execute such as the opponents momentum.. wrestling is not 100% strength oriented maybe greco roman has more emphasis. High level wrestlers make you feel like a ball bouncing they are very light and use strength certain stages
Wait you talked about a double Leg Takedown then showed a photo of a suplay throw at 1:17
Any wrestlers in here preparing for a bjj match with a judo guy? PS: if anyone has any tips I’m all ears
12:10 what's the name of that wrestler in yellow singlet??
I'm not sure! It seems like a high school competition.
Which is better to learn if you're 52yrs old?
It's hard to say. Just try it out, you can't loose anything👍🏼
Wrestling... judo is tougher than wrestling, but please do weight training if you haven’t already
ALL FORMS BELONG TO GRAPPLING - IN HAWAII OUR GYM DOES SUBMISSION GRAPPLING; Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Bjj, etc… It’s all grappling.
JUST GRAPPLE!
Can someone explain to me the phrase "low risk/high reward" techniques? People say that wrestling is better for BJJ since it has low risk/high reward techniques. I suppose all martial arts have those types of techniques. Thanks :)
Low risk means the chances of getting countered are small, it differs from art to art, a good foot sweep is low risk high reward for example
@@Chadi Thanks man :) I started BJJ 3 months ago and then Corona happened.....I wanted to transition to MMA....I did Shotokan karate for 10 years and a little bit of Kyokushin karate.... When I asked my instructor what are the easiest judo throws to learn that I can use on the street, he said that low risk/high reward techniques are the way to go. But the thing is he never told me what are those moves or techniques :)
@@nikolaplavsic9302 best of luck man
@@Chadi Thanks man :)
1:25 is Te-guruma, not Morote-gari.
Tradução para português, por favor!
Freestyle wrestling is the best ☝️
That low kataguruma more soft.
the problem i have with this video is that these techniques (1:48) are illigal in judo.
Yes in competition, but it’s a part of judo besides that
Wrestling 🤼♂️🤼♂️🤼♂️
even if the wrestler gets the first takedown judokas know how to break the fall and can sub the wrestler..
Wreslin best judo
Judo ist ohne Beinangriffe!
Wrestling > Judo
It's been a year and this is still wrong.
thnx!
You're welcome!
GOD Loved you enough to send His Son JESUS for you and if you will believe in Him and at baptized in THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT and turn from your sins you will be ( if you haven’t already)
🇮🇹👍🏼
Hilarious...
Everyone know free style is best i thing don't need to speak about this to much
judo is for kids