We had the sea, we have the sky, now all we need is a shock game set in the Ironforge-like depths of a gigantic, sprawling mountain fortress. Call it… Rock Shock
I don't think Bioshock infinute was the first but It was the first I remember to kick off the period of: releasing "gameplay" trailers that looked like nearly finished games only to learn that gameplay trailer took half the dev time,Nothing in it is in the final product and the game that was released was completed in the last 18 months of development. Becoming way more commonplace to a point it's now considered a standard industry practice.
8:15 I'm so glad people understand this now. This was my reaction back at 2013 and people acted like this game was perfect sequel and second coming of Christ. Oh, and btw, not only did they (badly) copied themselves, they are retroactively DEMOLISHED bioshock in the DLC to this game in every way possible.
My issue with critiquing Bioshock Infinite is that people get amnesia and pretend that the game wasn't critiqued to hell when it came out, it did. Mathewmatowsis' video on it was phenomenal and came out right after the game's release. It was met with positive reactions and people mostly agreed with everything he said. You bring up these criticisms to people and they will agree with you. Yet, people will still give this game a pass. The things this game does well, it does it damn well good. The art direction carries it hard and dumbed down gameplay might have been the smartest decision that the developers made because casuals and "normies" eat it up. The game was harshly criticized when it came out, it's harshly criticized now, and it will be harshly criticized in the future, and it will still be a beloved game to a lot of people. There are peope who will watch this every harsh review on this game and agree with every word and then they'll play the game again in the future. It's basically the video game equivalent of James Cameron's Avatar. A movie that deserved every criticism it got but is still a beloved movie for some reason. The same criticism the movie gets now were said when it came out, but its popularity is still baffingly large and still ongoing. tl;dr Bioshock 2 is a good game and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
The endless cycle and critique and praise Part of me is wondering of they'll make anything out of the truckload of cut content they had before releasing Infinite, some of the stuff in the artbook and some of those early game previews could be reworked into something special on its own.
I have literally only read a handful of wiki entries on this game while looking for totally unrelated things (non-Elizabeth-related), and I got to the part where they said "and then the rebels start rioting and you have to shooty-shoot them like the racist theocratic dictatorship's footsoldiers" and went "what the actual fuck is this game's moral compass?"
Revolutions at least have tended to be violent affairs where emotions run high and people get killed simply because they were the wrong kind of person in the wrong place at the wrong time. Though, this game just took the general american liberal stance of "all violence bad" instead of having any kind of a nuanced take.
@@TripleAlfafa Yep. There's a space to be able to say "the revolution isn't pretty, but it's still nicer than the racist theocracy". But the game just goes with "any violence is bad, even violence against a violent system".
@@anon9469 -- Copied and pasted my own comment above but to push back a little bit - I think there is a position between "the Haitian revolution was good and perfectly acceptable and understandable" and "you know what, the Frenchmen owning slaves were the good guys and everything they did was fine and good." -- Not all revolution against injustice is excessive in equal measure and the underlying ideologies that under-gird revolution have a big impact on how they play out and what sort of retribution takes place. -- Yes Bioshock infinite's messaging was a total mess and had the ideological and intellectual depth of a puddle. But the idea that the oppressed can be just as vile and evil as their oppressors was not an issue in and of itself.
I'm so glad Sseth made that shout out for your channel. This is highly enjoyable, and different, which makes it great. Also, the irony of this game lasting impact being a mountain of porn is just peak irl comedy.
@@grundergesellscahftmkii6196 At the end of Sseth's hardspace video I believe, though I think Toast has been helping Sseth edit for a fair few videos before
I think there is a position between "the Haitian revolution was good and perfectly acceptable and understandable" and "you know what, the Frenchmen owning slaves were the good guys and everything they did was fine and good." -- Not all revolution against injustice is excessive in equal measure and the underlying ideologies that under-gird revolution have a big impact on how they play out and what sort of retribution takes place. -- Yes Bioshock infinite's messaging was a total mess and had the ideological and intellectual depth of a puddle. But the idea that the oppressed can be just as vile and evil as their oppressors was not an issue in and of itself.
Of course, but many people who've never lived under oppression tend to see any sign of violence as the oppressed people "going too far", and I fear that this game is doing just that.
True that was something I also took issue with in this review. The game pointing to the flawed nature of the uprising is a good thing. Killing anybody wearing glasses is Pol Pot shit and totally inexcusable. But hey there is a lot of communist sympathizers rising up in privileged first world countries so it’s not surprising that this guy thinks this way.
Now granted, it's been a while since I played this game, but I thought the main difference between the alternative universes was who Booker allied himself with. Like, the universe where the Vox rose up and slaughtered everyone was the one where Booker joined Fitzroy. He convinced her to lead a violent rebellion, because violence is how he solves all his problems. This information, along with the ending, always gave me the impressions that the game's moral was less about the factions themselves and more about Booker specifically. The message I got was not "both sides are bad", it was "Booker is bad, no matter what side he's on", because everything he touches turns into a bloodbath. He's an inherently violent man across every possible universe, which is why the only solution in the end was to kill him in every universe. Now if Infinite was a better written game, they might have been able to drawn a meta-textual line between Booker and the protagonist of every FPS game. In the same way that Bioshock's ending pointed out the lack of free will inherent to most games, I feel like Infinite was very close to pointing out the inherent psychopathy of most game protagonists. Like, yeah, If you're an unstoppable killing machine who is mowing down people by the dozens and enjoying it, you're probably a bad guy, no matter how you try to justify your slaughter. The racism of Columbia's citizens doesn't make it okay to kill literally hundreds of them in a series of rampages, as Booker does. But as the protagonist of a shooter game, Booker's only solution to every problem is to just keep murdering people until things are resolved. Of course Infinite wasn't very well written as you rightfully pointed out. There's a reason most people don't get that message from it. But I think that was what the creators were going for, once you get past all the other pretentious stuff crammed in there.
You're pretty much right, and that's probably what their intention was. In hindsight, I probably should've worked that metatextual angle into the video, since it would've fit in nicely with all the thing Infinite poorly copies from 1. That angle is also ruined by all the pointless voice lines where booker repeats obvious information for the player, or expresses how confused he is (I was keeping track of them but cut that part out of the video). He comes off as scared and confused in the gameplay, and his alcoholic past implies he felt remorse for his army/Pinkerton days, so I really don't buy that he's beyond redemption. Ultimately I am kinda misrepresenting some things out of spite/for the sake of humor, but whatever it was trying to get across absolutely did not work, ESPECIALLY for the type of player who needs to be told where the crouch button is after 3 hours.
& then then players complained-having not understood the above-of Daisey wanting to kill all children in Columbia by scorched earth, so they champion in the side novel->ruin Daisey in the Burial at Sea dlc....oh dear...
Among my friend group, I found myself pretty alone in disliking this game, I felt like I was going crazy. I absolutely loved the first and second game, but this game felt like a punch in the stomach. I'm pretty convinced if this was just a standalone story/game, I'd have probably loved it, but if you expect one particular flavor, and get another one that's completely on a different spectrum, then you are probably not going to enjoy it. Overall, its validating to know that I wasn't alone in my thoughts, at least.
It doesn't even manage to "fix" the timeline by having the player kill themselves as not only are there infinite versions where you don't, even if doing so makes it a "fixed point" in the timeline there is still an earlier branch in the timeline with the birth of either of the Lutecce twins so we have a second branch that we didn't deal with. If you want to end the timeline fuckery of Infinite you need to go back in time and and create a grandfather paradox that does not involve your family, but you pumping the Lutecces mothers womb full of lead so nobody can kick of the thing in the first place.
The lowest point to me is that those really vertical levels showed in the E3 2011 demo are nowhere to be seen in the final game, there is nothing so vertical like those skyrails.
It's very amusing the game is essentially baby's first multiverse idea meaning they were like 'what if multiverse' and did zero other thinking about how that works.
It's great to see more creators criticize this overglorified game. I remember, that when it came out everyone called it a masterpiece, some even said it was better than the first Bioshock and I was like "you what mate?". While Infinite is interesting because of the story when you're playing through it for the first time, the gameplay is horrendous and so dumbed down, that it was very hard for me to finish it and I haven't touched it since. B1 on the other hand had it all... amazing story, great gameplay, cool plazmids, just everything worked about that one. And while lots of people whine that B2 is just a rehash and looks more like an expansion pack to the first game, I'll still take it over Infinite any other day, because at least playing it is fun :)
It's a game that feels cool when you go through it but the moment you start thinking about the concepts, themes, really anything worth thinking about and you realize how dogshit it is. Yay I have no player agency, didn't your own game do this reveal better years ago? Your entire forced "le racism bad" is invalidated by making desperate rebels look like actual psychopaths making the racist slave owners somehow a better alternative? Infinite dimensions thing kind of makes anything but a perfect ending the only viable option? Oh yeah, you are a god now Elizabeth. I'm sure you can keep current Booker and stop him from becoming old Booker. Yes you lost your daughter in your dimension but you have her now. Also even playing through it, the game really jerked itself off a lot. By the time I started the dlc I was pissed off. Yes Levine, clap yourself on the back you did Bioshock. Wow you're so cool and smart and awesome.
I remember a time when this game was so popular that spoiler trolls would go unto comment sections for videos that had nothing to do with the Shock games and leave the "Comstock is Booker" spoiler everywhere. I have this very specific memory of watching something on Escapist, glancing at the comments, seeing the spoiler, and thinking "that's far too stupid to be true." Oh, how wrong I was.
The worst thing about this game is that "jump" is bound to the Y button. I honestly don't remember anything else about it, but that nonsense bind stuck with me for years.
I remember the lead-up to the game having quite a few things that were cool, but we didn't get. Like the Songbird was Elizabeth's companion before being rescued by Booker. It was a recurring boss and when it attacks you, you're given the choice to fight or run. And seeing that it was Elizabeth's only friend, she doesn't want you to hurt it. Of course, you could if you wanted to, but that would make Elizabeth start to hate you. In fact, I think Elizabeth's relationship with Booker would have more of an effect on gameplay. Like, if your relationship with her was good, she'd help you out more. But if not, she wouldn't do much (though she wouldn't hinder you, either). And Elizabeth could be more active in combat, like actually effecting enemies to help in combat. There was other stuff too and I was disappointed when practically none of that was in the game.
The fucking ending gets worse when you think about the story for more than a second too. The entire game shows Booker and Comstock as the same guy that chose a different choice at the crossroads that was that baptism, with Booker being the one to refuse and Comstock embraced it. Yada yada comstock stole booker’s kid and thats Elizabeth and time travel/multiverse shenanigans ensue, they bring Booker to the “birthplace” of comstock, the baptism, and kill him. But knowing full well that booker was already at the “birthplace” and refused the baptism, thus meaning he’s well past that fate comstock had and is, himself, a different man from him, why the fuck would killing him “smother comstock in his cradle”? He already said no to the baptism, and its not like he’s “Booker Prime” and he’s wiped from the multiverse, because Burial At Sea shows some other hapless Booker fuck to blame too. It tries to act like knows what it’s talking about to send some heavy story beat, but just makes itself look even worse. It sucks a lot when you look at all the promotional stuff over the years showing a different Bioshock Infinite in the works, with different mechanics and story beats. I don’t think it was a lapse in budget (though, they did say that they had enough game builds to make several games over) but just execs trying to dumb shit down for the “audience” so they could sell better. It’s a damn shame too, the old E3 vids looked fantastic.
I remember getting this game for free on 360 back when I had no budget, and even then I couldn't be bothered to go past the first like quarter of the game.
I bought it from a going out of business sale at blockbuster. I had no internet, no new games and aging console. I kinda had fun but the story was legit garbage.
I still hate how they wrote the Vox and Fitzroy. Yeah I get it revolutions can get messy but the way it was done made it impossible to delve deeper into it and just felt “Oo revolution are as bad” and having Fitzroy literally turn suddenly bad despite what we know about her past and killing her to help another character arc like what the fuck
Yeah I don’t like the way the reviewer minimized the oppressor in this statement by making fun of Pol Pot. Don’t you know his revolution against smart people was totally justified and we shouldn’t criticize him?
I actually kinda like the idea of Booker (a massive strong white man) doming the whole Racist Society. It gives Wolfenstein vibes where the man who kills so many Nazis is a man who has the physical appearance of "The Perfect Arian" with blond hair, blue eyes and a strong jawline.
I still have a bit of a problem with it, because it's a very western centrist vision of the whole thing. It's like, the white man made rascism and he's gonna end it. Minorities don't have agency in that narrative, they're just the poor, defensless minorities who need the strong white man to save them. Which completely ignore very important questions regarding rascism like "now that sl*very is over, how do we deal with a society that unconsciously integrated rascism in the way they act?" "how do we repair the damage? Do we give back the richesses we made from slavery to the slave? Don't they deserve it?". It doesn't prepare a mordern euro-american audience to deal with the internalized rascism in their own society. I'm not saying this is a wrong thing to do, but you have to keep in mind that this is still the western world mostly interacting with the western world, and not letting minorities have a say in their own story.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117well anyone can become Jewish by converting into Judaism, so it is not an ethnicity only but it is also a religion Source: Internet (I am not Jewish so I can be mistaken)
I have regarded this game as one of the best when it released because I mostly ignored all the terrible shit in it and because I was stunned at the time by how useful Elizabeth was, like actually useful companion in a game (I still think elizabeth is one of the best sidekicks in terms of gameplay to this day). I still think that art direction is really good in the game, soundtrack is decent and elizabeth's story is also pretty interesting but there is so much shit around it that ten years later I can't just ignore that and enjoy it the same way.
This video is pure catharsis for me. I could not finish this game. I got genuinely angry at it and you didn’t even touch on the glaring mechanical issues with the gameplay. Specifically that “guns for airship” part. I literally screamed in frustration at how stupid that logic was. I refuse to call it anything other than “Baby’s first multiverse theory….THE GAME.”
Replaying Bioshock Infinite pretty much gave me the very same experience as re-watching Rick and Morty; They're quality works, sure. But whatever initial, personal "appeal" it has, is totally lost on me now, that I seriously wonder what and why I enjoyed it in the past. Those, exemplifies to me that point about "growing past" some stuff. Again, quite an interesting experience for me since, there are things that I go back to, and still do enjoy to this day. Like Tremors 2, C&C Kane's Wrath, Megas XLR... ...the one thing in 'Infinite I'd never get over though, Elizabeth Comstock SFMs.
The Booker you play as is from the past, compared to Comstock in the present. The Lutece partners were shunted into being able to summon at least 120 Booker's from the past to mess with Comstock and Fink for sabotaging them. The ending makes even less sense because there are parallel timelines that converge and diverge for little apparent reason other than "the story needs it" vs somewhat more coherent philosophies of time like the growing block universe (the past exists "behind" the present, and the future proceeds as the present moves into it like overlaying segments of space) or eternalism (all past and future events are real, and the present is merely a path or bundle of paths thru how evolution of events over time change spatial and material aspects of systems). Idk if the Lutece twins are guiding each incarnation of Elizabeth to help Booker's to defeat Comstock's, but it's a giant mess
Comstock isn't from a different time than Booker, they're the same age. Comstock has been altered by exposure to other universes to the point he's no longer recognizable as the same person. It's also why he's sterile and had to steal Elizabeth from Booker.
As a teen that didn't know the...finer...points of history, I loved this game. As an adult, I despise the story and the "message" it tries to tell. With that said, great video, as always!
Bioshock Infinite is a game I think I'll never replay- I fondly remember enjoying it when I was younger, and I feel replaying it would only ruin that by letting me see all the failings firsthand.
being sseth's editor didn't slow you down one bit. also, i'd like to share the story of how i found this channel: i've found out about cruelty squad, saw toast's thumbnail and thought: "what? a woman played this? and long enough to have an opinion, no less?"
Not gonna lie, I completely forgot you existed, so this video was a very pleasant surprise. I'm also glad I wasn't the only one that was annoyed by the forced upgrades at the beginning of the game. Keep up the good work.
I would like to apologize, I showed this to my little brother who has convinced himself through ignorance and arrogance, that Infinite is the best BioShock game. He paused about half way through just to dislike the video, not considering let alone understanding the many unforgivable sins of this game. I've tried to reason with him, he simply resorts to "bESt BiosHoCk gaMe" followed by a barrage of ad hominem attacks.
Elizabeth is like a Brazzers parody of a Disney princess. The Bioshock team pretending they didn’t know what they were doing is up there with the Blizzard team saying the same thing.
Just finished and you nailed it. I honestly couldn't believe they flipped the story that way, but then I remembered "oh, wait, this is primarily for a Western audience" and it made sense that it makes no sense.
Maybe I’m just stupid but when Elizabeth says maybe their perfect each other I don’t think they are making a statement about ideologies I think they are making a statement on how both are willing to kill and do horrible things for what they believe in . Elizabeth also talks abt the revolution like it’s a good thing prior to this point in the game . Also they aren’t jumping different time lines when they open a big rift like that they are changing variables in their own. Part of reason bioshock infinite is my favorite it’s because of how confusing it is .
Also Elizabeth also find out she was wrong to thing that way abt her because of the dlc, she was never going to kill that boy, it’s a becomes a question are you willing to die for this idea of revolution and its being used so “Elizabeth can become a woman”
You’re not stupid. The game was criticizing the methods of revolution not the whole revolution itself. It was clearly on the side of the revolution for most of the game but was wise to point out the horrors it can cause itself. I really disliked the story for so many reasons but this was not one of the main reasons for me.
Reached adulthood without playing any 7th-gen shooters besides Vanquish and _t e c h n i c a l l y_ a couple Ratchet & Clank games. I feel like I missed the exact cultural touchstones I needed to miss to still respect gaming as an art form.
Game writers are often too cowardly to write genuinely impactful political satire. The both sidesing of this fictional conflict made me roll my eyes hard enough to make Pol Pot look at me sideways. They didn't add moral ambiguity to their story, they shot it's central themes in the kneecaps Great video!
“Game writers aren’t brave enough to write political satire that I agree with” Play literally any modern game. It’s their game to focus on themes they want to focus on. Your mentality is what will kill writing in video games.
Just because a game has a big script changing twist doesn't make it good. I vastly perferred the story they were telling in the first thrid of the game to everything that came after. Felt like they were being really pretentious but really juyst obfuscating how simple the subject was. Also at the end they basically confirmed that every Bioshock story for forever is now going to be Bioshock 1 with a twist, which was expected but sad to see them so proudly say they were creatively bankrupt.
I remember this game in such a mixed light, playing it back in the day as a small child you shut their brain off to play games I still remember hitting the ending and thinking "What the FUCK is this writing?" since the ending felt like some brash attempt to seem deep by doing something as extreme as killing the main character. Eventually time passed, I played the first System Shock and Bioshock, and came back to the game with semi fond memories and wanted to re-explore it. And seeing the code 0451 felt like I had been spit in the eye, an on rail's shooter that is more interested in fence riding and pretentious long winded storytelling, pretending to have any of the depth or even mechanic's of its predecessors. Eventually I got fed up with the weak weapons, shit story, and could not force myself through the bog of a second playthrough. How anyone fell in love with a game that stops every 5-10 minutes to say 'racism bad' only for the next half of the game being to criticize the violent consequences of such oppression is beyond me. But thank you so much for covering a game that was the stepping stone to me finding more quality titles and whispering on my toes about the joy of Immersive Sims.
Oh man I love this game soooo much. Objectively flawed, but man I get chills everytime I get shot up into Columbia. I make an attempt to beat the game every year and I always get something more out of it each time. DLC was mixed but I didn't mind the way they connected it to the OG Bioshock. I think this game just sells the atmosphere so well more than most FPS or 3rd Person shooters.
the slave pens in Africa Uganda must be keeping our favorite breakfast cereal busy. still looking forward to that new video. it took me 2 months after i got out of jail, to find you again, because youtube doesn't have a filter search for your subscriptions or it does and i don't have any eyes. but the important thing besides the awkward closed space and homoerotic nature, i remembered your channel this is not my phone, or wifi. :) if i made u giggle or gaggle, that's awesome.
"There will be a revolution just like the miserables" Liz honey did you finished the book? If you did you will know that revolutions dont always end well. Also the pol pot reference holy shit what where they thinking
Damn, still remember waiting in hyped anticipation for the release of Bioshock Infinite & playing it at launch back in 2013. How time flies... nostalgia (for simpler times) Cheers from the Netherlands (S/O Sseth)
"I think those dirty frenchmen got they fucking deserved" You made me spill my drink lol Awesome video, I remember loving this game as a teen but I hadn't played bshock 1 or 2 yet. Subscribed!
14:45 This is honestly where the game really lost me, especially with Elizabeth of all people saying this. She literally came with you on this journey, and witnessed first hand how priviliged, cruel and barbaric the citizens of columbia were and yet she two sides the whole situation like "Comstock and Fitzroy are just as bad as eachother" Because the rebels are reacting violently because of how a violent blood hungry nationalist society treated them? It's like asking why Gladiators in Rome couldn't they just leave in the middle of a death match, they have NO other choice because most of them were SLAVES!
This game still holds a special place in my heart but yeah its really flawed. Luckily it has one thing that comes with it that save it MOTHERFUCKING CLASH IN THE CLOUDS BABY HELL TO THE YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
All they need to show with the racist aligory and the anti-racist racist aligory, was just a middle ground.... Like I don't know the main character putting a gun to both leaders heads and telling everyone to shut the fuck up. Basically doing a John Booth to both sides. Would it solve anything, no... But at least it would cause a slump in both parties. Making everyone kindof go meh to it or deem him as the true devil that both sides will hate.
I remember the first time I played Infinite and how angry I got at the ending because I appear to understand that infinite means *infinite* and killing our Booker solves *nothing* even though the game acts like it accomplished anything. Writing a multiverse story is pretty damn challenging; you gotta know what you're doing and the implications. The writers did not.
i dont recall the actual story details whatsoever there was a point where i just wanted to get it done with so i didnt pay attention to any detail and any environmental storytelling and every poltiical thing shoved in my face made me le sigh and get even deeper within the headache that is this terrible video game i didnt care anymore what points it attempted to make which it failed to make even if i in any form agreed or disagreed the game is just so fucking terrible
great job grandson
I need futa Elizabeth rigged by Friday
what's the next big futa game, sseth?
What a badge of honor
Hey hey Sseth, people here...
wow, the legend himself. Toastoffire is really rising up on the world eh?
He is just following your steps, master
We had the sea, we have the sky, now all we need is a shock game set in the Ironforge-like depths of a gigantic, sprawling mountain fortress.
Call it… Rock Shock
Kidney stones
I don't think Bioshock infinute was the first but It was the first I remember to kick off the period of: releasing "gameplay" trailers that looked like nearly finished games only to learn that gameplay trailer took half the dev time,Nothing in it is in the final product and the game that was released was completed in the last 18 months of development. Becoming way more commonplace to a point it's now considered a standard industry practice.
8:15 I'm so glad people understand this now. This was my reaction back at 2013 and people acted like this game was perfect sequel and second coming of Christ.
Oh, and btw, not only did they (badly) copied themselves, they are retroactively DEMOLISHED bioshock in the DLC to this game in every way possible.
"Yakubian Zion" either sprung from your brain fully-formed like Athena from the brow of Zeus or took you weeks of thought, solid phrase
My issue with critiquing Bioshock Infinite is that people get amnesia and pretend that the game wasn't critiqued to hell when it came out, it did. Mathewmatowsis' video on it was phenomenal and came out right after the game's release. It was met with positive reactions and people mostly agreed with everything he said.
You bring up these criticisms to people and they will agree with you. Yet, people will still give this game a pass. The things this game does well, it does it damn well good. The art direction carries it hard and dumbed down gameplay might have been the smartest decision that the developers made because casuals and "normies" eat it up. The game was harshly criticized when it came out, it's harshly criticized now, and it will be harshly criticized in the future, and it will still be a beloved game to a lot of people. There are peope who will watch this every harsh review on this game and agree with every word and then they'll play the game again in the future. It's basically the video game equivalent of James Cameron's Avatar. A movie that deserved every criticism it got but is still a beloved movie for some reason. The same criticism the movie gets now were said when it came out, but its popularity is still baffingly large and still ongoing.
tl;dr Bioshock 2 is a good game and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
The endless cycle and critique and praise
Part of me is wondering of they'll make anything out of the truckload of cut content they had before releasing Infinite, some of the stuff in the artbook and some of those early game previews could be reworked into something special on its own.
I have literally only read a handful of wiki entries on this game while looking for totally unrelated things (non-Elizabeth-related), and I got to the part where they said "and then the rebels start rioting and you have to shooty-shoot them like the racist theocratic dictatorship's footsoldiers" and went "what the actual fuck is this game's moral compass?"
Revolutions at least have tended to be violent affairs where emotions run high and people get killed simply because they were the wrong kind of person in the wrong place at the wrong time. Though, this game just took the general american liberal stance of "all violence bad" instead of having any kind of a nuanced take.
@@TripleAlfafa Yep.
There's a space to be able to say "the revolution isn't pretty, but it's still nicer than the racist theocracy". But the game just goes with "any violence is bad, even violence against a violent system".
@@anon9469 -- Copied and pasted my own comment above but to push back a little bit - I think there is a position between "the Haitian revolution was good and perfectly acceptable and understandable" and "you know what, the Frenchmen owning slaves were the good guys and everything they did was fine and good." -- Not all revolution against injustice is excessive in equal measure and the underlying ideologies that under-gird revolution have a big impact on how they play out and what sort of retribution takes place.
-- Yes Bioshock infinite's messaging was a total mess and had the ideological and intellectual depth of a puddle.
But the idea that the oppressed can be just as vile and evil as their oppressors was not an issue in and of itself.
This guy gets it.
@@anon9469”the only existing problem in the world today is racism and that’s it”
- Everyone on the internet
I'm so glad Sseth made that shout out for your channel. This is highly enjoyable, and different, which makes it great.
Also, the irony of this game lasting impact being a mountain of porn is just peak irl comedy.
which Sseth video mention Toast?
@@grundergesellscahftmkii6196 Hardspace shipbreaker one
Did that really happen or was that a Twitter thing?
Lets just say , they saved elizabeth in an other form of entertaiment.
System shock still reigns supreme !!!!!
@@grundergesellscahftmkii6196 At the end of Sseth's hardspace video I believe, though I think Toast has been helping Sseth edit for a fair few videos before
I think there is a position between "the Haitian revolution was good and perfectly acceptable and understandable" and "you know what, the Frenchmen owning slaves were the good guys and everything they did was fine and good." -- Not all revolution against injustice is excessive in equal measure and the underlying ideologies that under-gird revolution have a big impact on how they play out and what sort of retribution takes place.
-- Yes Bioshock infinite's messaging was a total mess and had the ideological and intellectual depth of a puddle.
But the idea that the oppressed can be just as vile and evil as their oppressors was not an issue in and of itself.
Of course, but many people who've never lived under oppression tend to see any sign of violence as the oppressed people "going too far", and I fear that this game is doing just that.
True that was something I also took issue with in this review. The game pointing to the flawed nature of the uprising is a good thing. Killing anybody wearing glasses is Pol Pot shit and totally inexcusable. But hey there is a lot of communist sympathizers rising up in privileged first world countries so it’s not surprising that this guy thinks this way.
Now granted, it's been a while since I played this game, but I thought the main difference between the alternative universes was who Booker allied himself with.
Like, the universe where the Vox rose up and slaughtered everyone was the one where Booker joined Fitzroy. He convinced her to lead a violent rebellion, because violence is how he solves all his problems. This information, along with the ending, always gave me the impressions that the game's moral was less about the factions themselves and more about Booker specifically.
The message I got was not "both sides are bad", it was "Booker is bad, no matter what side he's on", because everything he touches turns into a bloodbath. He's an inherently violent man across every possible universe, which is why the only solution in the end was to kill him in every universe.
Now if Infinite was a better written game, they might have been able to drawn a meta-textual line between Booker and the protagonist of every FPS game. In the same way that Bioshock's ending pointed out the lack of free will inherent to most games, I feel like Infinite was very close to pointing out the inherent psychopathy of most game protagonists.
Like, yeah, If you're an unstoppable killing machine who is mowing down people by the dozens and enjoying it, you're probably a bad guy, no matter how you try to justify your slaughter. The racism of Columbia's citizens doesn't make it okay to kill literally hundreds of them in a series of rampages, as Booker does. But as the protagonist of a shooter game, Booker's only solution to every problem is to just keep murdering people until things are resolved.
Of course Infinite wasn't very well written as you rightfully pointed out. There's a reason most people don't get that message from it. But I think that was what the creators were going for, once you get past all the other pretentious stuff crammed in there.
You're pretty much right, and that's probably what their intention was. In hindsight, I probably should've worked that metatextual angle into the video, since it would've fit in nicely with all the thing Infinite poorly copies from 1. That angle is also ruined by all the pointless voice lines where booker repeats obvious information for the player, or expresses how confused he is (I was keeping track of them but cut that part out of the video). He comes off as scared and confused in the gameplay, and his alcoholic past implies he felt remorse for his army/Pinkerton days, so I really don't buy that he's beyond redemption.
Ultimately I am kinda misrepresenting some things out of spite/for the sake of humor, but whatever it was trying to get across absolutely did not work, ESPECIALLY for the type of player who needs to be told where the crouch button is after 3 hours.
heyy it's that Maxx C guy
I feel there's a lot of Spec Ops: The Line in the moral message you outlined.
I like it. Spec Ops is incredible.
Hardleg love BioShock as well crazy 🤣🤣
& then then players complained-having not understood the above-of Daisey wanting to kill all children in Columbia by scorched earth, so they champion in the side novel->ruin Daisey in the Burial at Sea dlc....oh dear...
Among my friend group, I found myself pretty alone in disliking this game, I felt like I was going crazy. I absolutely loved the first and second game, but this game felt like a punch in the stomach.
I'm pretty convinced if this was just a standalone story/game, I'd have probably loved it, but if you expect one particular flavor, and get another one that's completely on a different spectrum, then you are probably not going to enjoy it.
Overall, its validating to know that I wasn't alone in my thoughts, at least.
It doesn't even manage to "fix" the timeline by having the player kill themselves as not only are there infinite versions where you don't, even if doing so makes it a "fixed point" in the timeline there is still an earlier branch in the timeline with the birth of either of the Lutecce twins so we have a second branch that we didn't deal with. If you want to end the timeline fuckery of Infinite you need to go back in time and and create a grandfather paradox that does not involve your family, but you pumping the Lutecces mothers womb full of lead so nobody can kick of the thing in the first place.
The lowest point to me is that those really vertical levels showed in the E3 2011 demo are nowhere to be seen in the final game, there is nothing so vertical like those skyrails.
The E3 build was a whole different game, looked more interesting too imo
It's very amusing the game is essentially baby's first multiverse idea meaning they were like 'what if multiverse' and did zero other thinking about how that works.
Bioshock's 2 Minerva's Den is the best Bioshock post 1; even with Lizzie's sacrifice in Burial at Sea.
It's great to see more creators criticize this overglorified game. I remember, that when it came out everyone called it a masterpiece, some even said it was better than the first Bioshock and I was like "you what mate?". While Infinite is interesting because of the story when you're playing through it for the first time, the gameplay is horrendous and so dumbed down, that it was very hard for me to finish it and I haven't touched it since. B1 on the other hand had it all... amazing story, great gameplay, cool plazmids, just everything worked about that one. And while lots of people whine that B2 is just a rehash and looks more like an expansion pack to the first game, I'll still take it over Infinite any other day, because at least playing it is fun :)
It's a game that feels cool when you go through it but the moment you start thinking about the concepts, themes, really anything worth thinking about and you realize how dogshit it is. Yay I have no player agency, didn't your own game do this reveal better years ago? Your entire forced "le racism bad" is invalidated by making desperate rebels look like actual psychopaths making the racist slave owners somehow a better alternative? Infinite dimensions thing kind of makes anything but a perfect ending the only viable option? Oh yeah, you are a god now Elizabeth. I'm sure you can keep current Booker and stop him from becoming old Booker. Yes you lost your daughter in your dimension but you have her now. Also even playing through it, the game really jerked itself off a lot. By the time I started the dlc I was pissed off. Yes Levine, clap yourself on the back you did Bioshock. Wow you're so cool and smart and awesome.
I remember a time when this game was so popular that spoiler trolls would go unto comment sections for videos that had nothing to do with the Shock games and leave the "Comstock is Booker" spoiler everywhere.
I have this very specific memory of watching something on Escapist, glancing at the comments, seeing the spoiler, and thinking "that's far too stupid to be true." Oh, how wrong I was.
The worst thing about this game is that "jump" is bound to the Y button. I honestly don't remember anything else about it, but that nonsense bind stuck with me for years.
I remember the lead-up to the game having quite a few things that were cool, but we didn't get.
Like the Songbird was Elizabeth's companion before being rescued by Booker. It was a recurring boss and when it attacks you, you're given the choice to fight or run. And seeing that it was Elizabeth's only friend, she doesn't want you to hurt it. Of course, you could if you wanted to, but that would make Elizabeth start to hate you.
In fact, I think Elizabeth's relationship with Booker would have more of an effect on gameplay. Like, if your relationship with her was good, she'd help you out more. But if not, she wouldn't do much (though she wouldn't hinder you, either).
And Elizabeth could be more active in combat, like actually effecting enemies to help in combat.
There was other stuff too and I was disappointed when practically none of that was in the game.
The fucking ending gets worse when you think about the story for more than a second too.
The entire game shows Booker and Comstock as the same guy that chose a different choice at the crossroads that was that baptism, with Booker being the one to refuse and Comstock embraced it. Yada yada comstock stole booker’s kid and thats Elizabeth and time travel/multiverse shenanigans ensue, they bring Booker to the “birthplace” of comstock, the baptism, and kill him. But knowing full well that booker was already at the “birthplace” and refused the baptism, thus meaning he’s well past that fate comstock had and is, himself, a different man from him, why the fuck would killing him “smother comstock in his cradle”? He already said no to the baptism, and its not like he’s “Booker Prime” and he’s wiped from the multiverse, because Burial At Sea shows some other hapless Booker fuck to blame too. It tries to act like knows what it’s talking about to send some heavy story beat, but just makes itself look even worse.
It sucks a lot when you look at all the promotional stuff over the years showing a different Bioshock Infinite in the works, with different mechanics and story beats. I don’t think it was a lapse in budget (though, they did say that they had enough game builds to make several games over) but just execs trying to dumb shit down for the “audience” so they could sell better. It’s a damn shame too, the old E3 vids looked fantastic.
I remember getting this game for free on 360 back when I had no budget, and even then I couldn't be bothered to go past the first like quarter of the game.
I bought it from a going out of business sale at blockbuster. I had no internet, no new games and aging console.
I kinda had fun but the story was legit garbage.
I still hate how they wrote the Vox and Fitzroy. Yeah I get it revolutions can get messy but the way it was done made it impossible to delve deeper into it and just felt “Oo revolution are as bad” and having Fitzroy literally turn suddenly bad despite what we know about her past and killing her to help another character arc like what the fuck
Never thought I'd hear the phrase "Pol Potting people" but here we are
Yeah I don’t like the way the reviewer minimized the oppressor in this statement by making fun of Pol Pot. Don’t you know his revolution against smart people was totally justified and we shouldn’t criticize him?
I actually kinda like the idea of Booker (a massive strong white man) doming the whole Racist Society. It gives Wolfenstein vibes where the man who kills so many Nazis is a man who has the physical appearance of "The Perfect Arian" with blond hair, blue eyes and a strong jawline.
That's called the Steve Rogers phenomenon.
Except Blaskowitz is Jewish
I still have a bit of a problem with it, because it's a very western centrist vision of the whole thing.
It's like, the white man made rascism and he's gonna end it. Minorities don't have agency in that narrative, they're just the poor, defensless minorities who need the strong white man to save them. Which completely ignore very important questions regarding rascism like "now that sl*very is over, how do we deal with a society that unconsciously integrated rascism in the way they act?" "how do we repair the damage? Do we give back the richesses we made from slavery to the slave? Don't they deserve it?". It doesn't prepare a mordern euro-american audience to deal with the internalized rascism in their own society.
I'm not saying this is a wrong thing to do, but you have to keep in mind that this is still the western world mostly interacting with the western world, and not letting minorities have a say in their own story.
@@hollywoodistrash I never understood anti-semitism, like your average jew is either the most white looking guy or somewhat arabic.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117well anyone can become Jewish by converting into Judaism, so it is not an ethnicity only but it is also a religion
Source: Internet (I am not Jewish so I can be mistaken)
CHAZ/CHOP in the sky, the videogame
THANK YOU i just finished this game and i hated the message that Revolting Against Your Oppressor Is Just As Bad As What Your Oppressor Did
I have regarded this game as one of the best when it released because I mostly ignored all the terrible shit in it and because I was stunned at the time by how useful Elizabeth was, like actually useful companion in a game (I still think elizabeth is one of the best sidekicks in terms of gameplay to this day).
I still think that art direction is really good in the game, soundtrack is decent and elizabeth's story is also pretty interesting but there is so much shit around it that ten years later I can't just ignore that and enjoy it the same way.
As a side note Andrew Ryan was voiced by Rmin Shimerman who played quark on star trek deep space 9
10 years ago. Fuck dude time flies
This video is pure catharsis for me. I could not finish this game. I got genuinely angry at it and you didn’t even touch on the glaring mechanical issues with the gameplay.
Specifically that “guns for airship” part. I literally screamed in frustration at how stupid that logic was.
I refuse to call it anything other than “Baby’s first multiverse theory….THE GAME.”
This was a nice critique. Great job!
Replaying Bioshock Infinite pretty much gave me the very same experience as re-watching Rick and Morty; They're quality works, sure. But whatever initial, personal "appeal" it has, is totally lost on me now, that I seriously wonder what and why I enjoyed it in the past. Those, exemplifies to me that point about "growing past" some stuff. Again, quite an interesting experience for me since, there are things that I go back to, and still do enjoy to this day. Like Tremors 2, C&C Kane's Wrath, Megas XLR...
...the one thing in 'Infinite I'd never get over though, Elizabeth Comstock SFMs.
The Booker you play as is from the past, compared to Comstock in the present. The Lutece partners were shunted into being able to summon at least 120 Booker's from the past to mess with Comstock and Fink for sabotaging them. The ending makes even less sense because there are parallel timelines that converge and diverge for little apparent reason other than "the story needs it" vs somewhat more coherent philosophies of time like the growing block universe (the past exists "behind" the present, and the future proceeds as the present moves into it like overlaying segments of space) or eternalism (all past and future events are real, and the present is merely a path or bundle of paths thru how evolution of events over time change spatial and material aspects of systems). Idk if the Lutece twins are guiding each incarnation of Elizabeth to help Booker's to defeat Comstock's, but it's a giant mess
Comstock isn't from a different time than Booker, they're the same age. Comstock has been altered by exposure to other universes to the point he's no longer recognizable as the same person. It's also why he's sterile and had to steal Elizabeth from Booker.
Bioshock Infinite is one of the arena / cinematic / Spunkgargleweewee / On Rail shooter of the time
As a teen that didn't know the...finer...points of history, I loved this game. As an adult, I despise the story and the "message" it tries to tell.
With that said, great video, as always!
The word "calvary" is the Goku to Toast's Vegeta.
Bioshock Infinite is a game I think I'll never replay- I fondly remember enjoying it when I was younger, and I feel replaying it would only ruin that by letting me see all the failings firsthand.
being sseth's editor didn't slow you down one bit.
also, i'd like to share the story of how i found this channel:
i've found out about cruelty squad, saw toast's thumbnail and thought: "what? a woman played this? and long enough to have an opinion, no less?"
toast does the ads because i cant stand them
in between i under-utilize his labor
Getting ever closer to that really pretentious dishonored review bro, keep it up.
This is one of the most intellectually comedic reviews I’ve ever seen. You tore this game down perfectly! Have a sub
"This game made a lasting impact on the gaming industry!" They say when the only impact this game had was killing the franchise
This was an absolute joy of a video
The entitling writing section is hilarious, well written, and your delivery is GOLDEN
Good video :)))
Not gonna lie, I completely forgot you existed, so this video was a very pleasant surprise. I'm also glad I wasn't the only one that was annoyed by the forced upgrades at the beginning of the game. Keep up the good work.
Image of LTG when you said kill yourself. Gold editing, these should be watched in 0.25x to catch everything.
Nobody's ever explained to me why racism is bad
Wait, you mean I *won't* get to play the game about the afro-futurist moon monarchy or the underground skeleton pirates with drill dozers? :`(
Unless you learn some kinda game engine.
ah yes the game that is resondsable for kick start sfm. but not in way youtube would like us to talk about.
Heck yeah, new Toast! Love your stuff
One of these days Toast is gonna do Sseth's intro and I'm not even gonna notice
I would like to apologize, I showed this to my little brother who has convinced himself through ignorance and arrogance, that Infinite is the best BioShock game. He paused about half way through just to dislike the video, not considering let alone understanding the many unforgivable sins of this game. I've tried to reason with him, he simply resorts to "bESt BiosHoCk gaMe" followed by a barrage of ad hominem attacks.
Elizabeth is like a Brazzers parody of a Disney princess. The Bioshock team pretending they didn’t know what they were doing is up there with the Blizzard team saying the same thing.
Just finished and you nailed it. I honestly couldn't believe they flipped the story that way, but then I remembered "oh, wait, this is primarily for a Western audience" and it made sense that it makes no sense.
Maybe I’m just stupid but when Elizabeth says maybe their perfect each other I don’t think they are making a statement about ideologies I think they are making a statement on how both are willing to kill and do horrible things for what they believe in . Elizabeth also talks abt the revolution like it’s a good thing prior to this point in the game . Also they aren’t jumping different time lines when they open a big rift like that they are changing variables in their own. Part of reason bioshock infinite is my favorite it’s because of how confusing it is .
Also Elizabeth also find out she was wrong to thing that way abt her because of the dlc, she was never going to kill that boy, it’s a becomes a question are you willing to die for this idea of revolution and its being used so “Elizabeth can become a woman”
You’re not stupid. The game was criticizing the methods of revolution not the whole revolution itself. It was clearly on the side of the revolution for most of the game but was wise to point out the horrors it can cause itself.
I really disliked the story for so many reasons but this was not one of the main reasons for me.
fun fact: elisabeth caused a leap in animation technology
thank you for tearing this awful game down
Haha, Teardown reference
I saw yesterday while I was rewatching your yakuza videos that I missed your Trepang^2 one, and today new video? What a treat.
Reached adulthood without playing any 7th-gen shooters besides Vanquish and _t e c h n i c a l l y_ a couple Ratchet & Clank games. I feel like I missed the exact cultural touchstones I needed to miss to still respect gaming as an art form.
There are other games that can reinforce the debate that games can be art
Fallout: New Vegas, Disco Elysium search for those
BioShock Infinite was a bigger letdown than Deus Ex Invisible War.
Game writers are often too cowardly to write genuinely impactful political satire. The both sidesing of this fictional conflict made me roll my eyes hard enough to make Pol Pot look at me sideways. They didn't add moral ambiguity to their story, they shot it's central themes in the kneecaps
Great video!
“Game writers aren’t brave enough to write political satire that I agree with”
Play literally any modern game. It’s their game to focus on themes they want to focus on. Your mentality is what will kill writing in video games.
This game is more fun whenever i eat chalk before playing it. And after playing it. And during playing it.
Never hated the game, but I also could never bring myself to like it. Your review explained my conflicting feelings perfectly.
Just because a game has a big script changing twist doesn't make it good. I vastly perferred the story they were telling in the first thrid of the game to everything that came after. Felt like they were being really pretentious but really juyst obfuscating how simple the subject was. Also at the end they basically confirmed that every Bioshock story for forever is now going to be Bioshock 1 with a twist, which was expected but sad to see them so proudly say they were creatively bankrupt.
I remember this game in such a mixed light, playing it back in the day as a small child you shut their brain off to play games I still remember hitting the ending and thinking "What the FUCK is this writing?" since the ending felt like some brash attempt to seem deep by doing something as extreme as killing the main character. Eventually time passed, I played the first System Shock and Bioshock, and came back to the game with semi fond memories and wanted to re-explore it. And seeing the code 0451 felt like I had been spit in the eye, an on rail's shooter that is more interested in fence riding and pretentious long winded storytelling, pretending to have any of the depth or even mechanic's of its predecessors. Eventually I got fed up with the weak weapons, shit story, and could not force myself through the bog of a second playthrough. How anyone fell in love with a game that stops every 5-10 minutes to say 'racism bad' only for the next half of the game being to criticize the violent consequences of such oppression is beyond me.
But thank you so much for covering a game that was the stepping stone to me finding more quality titles and whispering on my toes about the joy of Immersive Sims.
Oh man I love this game soooo much. Objectively flawed, but man I get chills everytime I get shot up into Columbia. I make an attempt to beat the game every year and I always get something more out of it each time. DLC was mixed but I didn't mind the way they connected it to the OG Bioshock. I think this game just sells the atmosphere so well more than most FPS or 3rd Person shooters.
2 seconds in and you're already making me cry for Deus Ex😢
the slave pens in Africa Uganda must be keeping our favorite breakfast cereal busy. still looking forward to that new video. it took me 2 months after i got out of jail, to find you again, because youtube doesn't have a filter search for your subscriptions or it does and i don't have any eyes. but the important thing besides the awkward closed space and homoerotic nature, i remembered your channel
this is not my phone, or wifi. :)
if i made u giggle or gaggle, that's awesome.
i can't wait for your next video m8
"There will be a revolution just like the miserables" Liz honey did you finished the book? If you did you will know that revolutions dont always end well.
Also the pol pot reference holy shit what where they thinking
“Become” brother, we already are
"Racism is good, actually,"
Based
I liked this game at the time, but was 14, so I'll give myself a pass for having a partially developed brain.
What do you think about System Shock Remake?
I couldn't get past the controls in the original, so I was happy to be able to actually play it. It's pretty good 👍
@@Toastoffire100 Thanks!
"Ask your doctor if Prozac® is right for you
...then ask him to turn down the fucking Bloom."
Something that always bothered me about Elisabeth is the size of her head. Nothing more to add.
Damn, still remember waiting in hyped anticipation for the release of Bioshock Infinite & playing it at launch back in 2013.
How time flies...
nostalgia (for simpler times)
Cheers from the Netherlands (S/O Sseth)
"I think those dirty frenchmen got they fucking deserved"
You made me spill my drink lol
Awesome video, I remember loving this game as a teen but I hadn't played bshock 1 or 2 yet. Subscribed!
I prefer Infinite over original Bioshcock. I 100% both, in case you ask if I played them enough
i thought i read biocock intimate... but that couldn't be riiight?
love ya toast xo
15:50
Nah that worked for me. I remember I did a quick 360 with the mouse and its face stood there for half a second before screaming.
great to have more of your content
I will always be grateful to Infinite for its contributions to the 3D NSFW animation industry.
You my man are underrated as hell.
14:45 This is honestly where the game really lost me, especially with Elizabeth of all people saying this. She literally came with you on this journey, and witnessed first hand how priviliged, cruel and barbaric the citizens of columbia were and yet she two sides the whole situation like "Comstock and Fitzroy are just as bad as eachother"
Because the rebels are reacting violently because of how a violent blood hungry nationalist society treated them?
It's like asking why Gladiators in Rome couldn't they just leave in the middle of a death match, they have NO other choice because most of them were SLAVES!
Youre my favourite reviewer thats posts 10 years after the game came out
This game still holds a special place in my heart but yeah its really flawed. Luckily it has one thing that comes with it that save it MOTHERFUCKING CLASH IN THE CLOUDS BABY HELL TO THE YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
I really enjoyed the game but I can definitely see where you’re coming from
14:24 A work of art, good sir!
I see beeing disciple of Sseth finaly brings fruits :D .
All they need to show with the racist aligory and the anti-racist racist aligory, was just a middle ground.... Like I don't know the main character putting a gun to both leaders heads and telling everyone to shut the fuck up. Basically doing a John Booth to both sides. Would it solve anything, no... But at least it would cause a slump in both parties. Making everyone kindof go meh to it or deem him as the true devil that both sides will hate.
I remember the first time I played Infinite and how angry I got at the ending because I appear to understand that infinite means *infinite* and killing our Booker solves *nothing* even though the game acts like it accomplished anything.
Writing a multiverse story is pretty damn challenging; you gotta know what you're doing and the implications.
The writers did not.
i dont recall the actual story details whatsoever
there was a point where i just wanted to get it done with so i didnt pay attention to any detail and any environmental storytelling
and every poltiical thing shoved in my face made me le sigh and get even deeper within the headache that is this terrible video game
i didnt care anymore what points it attempted to make which it failed to make even if i in any form agreed or disagreed
the game is just so fucking terrible
welp time to start the search for the video on the right at 18:31..... wish me luck kekw
02:48 - what a nice rhyme!
Wtf, I literally was thinking about your channel today, and when you'd upload your next vid. Lessgoooo!!
I didn’t understand this game when I played it as a kid I just remembered having fun with the powers.
The "Racist Society" vs "Communist society" meme is literally 1970s South Africa vs modern South Africa 😂😂😂.
If this is "IT WONT EVEN BE GOOD", then what else are you cooking?!
"Reap what you sow!"
"Did Washington reap or sow? Of course not! That's what the slaves were for!" lmao
Bioshock infinite isn't bioshock. I will die on this hill
Really enjoy how you manage to critique the game while being funny. Keep doing you :)