Can You Outshoot an FBI Agent? [Part 1: 1940s]
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- How do you think you'd fare shooting the official FBI pistol course from the 1940s? This is the first of a three part series where I'm going to find out how my skills measure up against various FBI standards through the decades using (mostly) period-correct equipment.
Part 2: • Can You Outshoot an FB...
Part 3: • Can You Outshoot an FB...
![Can You Outshoot an FBI Agent? [Part 2: 1980s]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9IH6QXl8L5U/mqdefault.jpg)
![Can You Outshoot an FBI Agent? [Part 2: 1980s]](/img/tr.png)
My 30 year career began in ‘68 w/mostly bulls eye shooting for qualification. In 1974 I found myself, along w/two other cops, in a gunfight w/three armed robbery suspects. None of my training up to that point taught me how to fight w/a gun so the fact that I walked away w/o a scratch was pure luck.
I'm glad you're still here to tell that story.
….Or God’s hand!!
Did that experience change the way you trained after that ?
@@alfredzig2035 i second this, im very curious if after your gunfight you changed up your training regiment or went looking for more advanced training that can be applied what a gunfight realistically is?
My guess is, probably not. Police agencies don’t change quickly, especially the bigger ones.
Chris, thanks for another great video. I started my LEO career in 75, and many of these techniques were still being taught and used. I always qualified as an "expert" at training and enjoyed shooting off duty. Everything changed for me in July of 76 when I was in my 1st OIS. I was shooting an S&W model 28, 357 mag loaded with Remington 125 gr sjhp. No speed loaders yet, just dump pouches meant for 6, but somehow, I crammed 11 in there. All I can say is that when the SHTF my partner was shot and I was in a real gunfight. After 5 shots, I chose to reload and reality set in. To say I was doing a stress reload is an understatement! The 11 rounds fell into my hands and some on the ground. It felt like I was trying to put 44mag rounds into a .22. The reload was eventually completed and soon, the gunfight was over. I won. Within days, I was carrying non issue speed loaders.
My biggest awakening was how much stress changed everything. Everything seemed to go into slow motion, there was no sound, and then there was the tunnel vision.
This changed my training to this day
Sounds like my career, I started in 76 having been taught by FBI instructors. In 78 I went over the chief deputy’s head to the Sheriff to get speed loaders approved along with Pachmayer grips. Chief Deputy was a great man but old fashioned.
@RBG-tr9ce it was a different time back then. The old timers didn't want to change anything. I remember when I bought my own vest and wore it to work. I took a bunch of abuse, but hung in there
Lucky gunner is lucky to have Chris B on staff. He’s an OG in the RUclips gun genre by now.
Chris is awesome, no argument. He will become the top dog now that Paul Harrel is having health issues.
This guy comes to rash and pedestrian conclusions. The continued attack on Hip Shooting, is just inane. Newbies should be careful about dismissing things.
Tactical Hyve is a much better site for training and assessments. This Newbie guy is just lost. Tactical Hyve laughed a bit on the hip shooting, until they did it. They were amazed how they were accurate, even at a distance that further amazed them. Newbies are there to learn. Chis B is too new to not know he is there to learn.
WTF am I? I am an old 65yo man who had two "events" with my sidearm while serving 34yrs in LE. My first was an ambush by a demented guy shooting through my Dodge Aspen with a 30-30, like it was cardboard. My 6 rounds into the door he was standing behind in a quanset building, did not penetrate, but they did cause him to throw out his weapon and step outside as commanded. He laid in front of the door for 15 minutes until a highway patrol unit made it to me.
My second event was with the highway patrol, when I left that position as a deputy to go the patrol. As a motor officer I pulled over a guy for a signal violation, who I did not know had just Xed his girlfriend. I approached and he tried to put a round into me as I was at his window. I practiced hip shooting as a motor officer, as we have no where to hide. A Harley is not going to block rounds. You slug it out at the drivers door. His round went through the left A/C vent, when mine entered the "globe." It was immediately evident it was over. He was swinging a 1911 toward me. The race to the first round stopping things, was the time it takes to swing a 1911 from the left A/C vent to the window. I do not recall anything about my actions, other than I had to be fast, accurate and then it was over. I had no specific thought process, no needless close range "Sight Picture" so many Newbies talk about in combat shooting.
I can point shoot out of the holster to 10 yards. I don't use my sights at all until beyond 10 yards and only use them at 15, to be sure I am inside the 9 ring.
Someone saying that it is just as fast to go to the shoulder, is mindless. Go watch quickdraw competitions and then come back and post how many competitors you see going to the shoulder. Less than 7 yards, 2.5 rounds, only 1 stops the event, is where most real world SD events find you.
Yes I am old. I started shooting at 4yo in 1964 with a Iver Johnson Scout. Loaded and reloaded it at 5yo. 1968 shot NRA small bore competitions. 1971 Combat Pistol with a 1911 at 11yo in the adult shoots and never competed in any Youth Class once I was 11yo. Trap Shot 1974 winning the northern state league Individual Handicap Championship at 14yo against all men. Long range rifle at 16yo, with a rifle I built over 3 weeks under Ernie Koenig's instruction out of Wyoming. Into The Corps at 17yo. Sheriff's Reserve Deputy 19yo, shooting on their PPC team, then a regular deputy and on to the highway patrol and competed in PPC there, POST Firearm Instructor Certification 1982, serving as one of many ass't range masters, ultimately retiring after 34yrs.
These Young Newbies like this guy, seem to prematurely come to some pretty weird conclusions. Hip shooting using a point shooting technique is a very valid method, in close quarters events. The Israeli Massad find a place for it close quarters. The LASD have taught it and in fact, they taught it to Cruise in "Collateral." If you think it isn't just because of some Newbie like this guy in the video, then start shopping for another more diverse channel. It didn't take me long to find Tactical Hyve and their video and they clearly are much more attuned to reality and are more experienced than this guy. They are experienced enough to actually do something to an extent of learning it, before judgement. It is like some of these Newbies never heard of the Mozambique Drill, or let me guess, they always do it at shoulder level, even if 10 feet away?
I let his first blast against hip shooting go, but now hearing him again, is just over the top. If I did not practice hip point shooting, I'd for sure have been a victim the night of my second event and perhaps not even been here to type any of this.
I think that this test really reflects what the FBI was doing at the time - mostly dealing with dug-in barricaded suspects. If you expect to be swapping bullets with John Dillinger and Baby Face Nelson at the Little Bohemia Lodge, the 50--60 yard ranges and supported positions start to make sense.
It's also very clear that your first run suffered from the lack of tie, high waisted pants, and snap-brim hat...
"The original Colt silhouette, later known as the 'man impatiently waiting to have his order taken at McDonalds'"
That test has to be more about following directions than actual marksmanship.
That seems appropriate for Hoover's FBI
And that is different today how? Excepting that today's police will shoot anything and everything with absolutely zero regard for the "public safety" they love to espouse.
@@LuckyGunnerMan in the High Castle really nailed Hoover's role in the German government in America, that is for sure.
Try it and find out.
@@onpsxmember
You'll catch on.
I shot the PPC competition in DOE in the late ‘70’s. At that time there was no hip shooting requirement, and the targets were different IIRC. I used a 4” Colt Python & 38 spl wad cutters.
I'm going out on a limb: yes
Indeed
Suppressing fire!
Lol
@Mrgunsngear LOL. But, we do need to see your score/time, for comparison sake.
Thank you, Chris Baker and Lucky Gunner staff, for keeping these old techniques in living memory.
The FBI wanted two things from prone and sitting:
reduced exposure to incoming gunfire
more stable shooting position
You did better from standing than from the "protected" and "stable " shooting position, Chris.
IIRC the hip shooting technique began with William Fairbairn teaching both the Shanghai police force and the British commandos combat survival...
His is more of a Quickdraw retention style. They said get shots out first, then aim.
Old police pistol qualifications are fascinating
@Goldenwithaleash Claude Werner The Tactical Professor covers a lot of old police drills/qualifications on his channel.
HRFunk tested all 50 state's pistol qualification courses. Big differences.
@@rbm6184
Thx. Will check it out.
The idea that the John Moses Browning existed and that law enforcement is still using revolvers post 1907 is the hardest concept to wrap my mind around.
To be fair it took a while for pistols to be as affordable, reliable and idiot proof as revolvers.
But not nearly as long as it took them to replace revolvers.
But rEVolVErs aRE mOrE reLIaBlE!
@@jonasbarka I figured WWI and, at the least, WWII (muh world wars) would prove they were pretty good. Seems like a lot of po-po used revolvers through the 80s though. I suppose it's not as simple of that but jeez, it still surprises me it took so long.
@@clamum9648I wonder if it was an attitude or culture thing, either they saw the weapon as more status/ceremonial than practical defensive tool, or with the extreme prevalence of western movies maybe the idea of the lawman with a six shooter on his hip taming the west helped the revolver stick around
The government has always been behind the times; it's the nature of beauracracy.
Great video! I qualified on a version of that course as a New Agent at the FBI Academy in 1986. No speedloader, but a single issue 2x2x2 ammo pouch, rest of the ammo in the strong-side pants pocket. Gun was similar to what you used, S&W Model 13-3 3" heavy barrel. Same 60 Yard line start. Same use of weak hand and eye on the weak side of the barricade. Same B-21X target with the bent arm, where rounds would find the "0" scoring area!
Course was a bit different in 1986: 60 rounds and fired in 4 Stages. Double action shooting was required at all stages except 50 Yards, where SA shooting was permitted and encouraged. The barricade shooting position used a standard 20hand grip, and not the thumb-supported 1-hand firing. Stage 1 starts at 60 Yard line, run to the 50 Yard line and fire 6 rounds prone, 3 rounds each strong and weak side standing barricade (with reloading), then run to 25 Yard line and fire 6 rounds each kneeling strong side barricade, over the top of the barricade and kneeling weak side barricade (with reloading). Stage 2 starts at 25 Yard line, run to the 15 Yard line and fire 12 rounds standing with reload in 30 seconds. Stage 3 starts at 15 Yard line, run to 7 Yard line and fire 12 rounds standing with reload in 25 seconds. Stage 4 starts at 7 Yard line, move to 5 Yard line and fire 6 rounds in 5 seconds.
People seem forget the status of ammunition back when the majority of police carried revolvers. Autoloaders were not known for their reliability with the hollow point designs of the time. For years the only choices for the 9mm were fmj ball. Later, Winchester released the completely ineffective 100 gr soft point, which was no better than fmj. For decades the 230 gr fmj was all you could find for the .45 acp. Viable hollow points just didn’t exist for autoloaders until well into the 1970’s. Wide mounted hollow points could only be used in revolvers. The stellar ammunition younger shooters take for granted is relatively speaking, a fairly new component to armed self defense. Some pistols, like the early Smith & Wesson model 39, and the Walther P-38 weren’t known for their reliability even when fmj rounds were used. The Illinois State Police issued the model 39 in 1967 and within a few years many troopers were asking for their old revolvers back due to reliability issues. These problems were documented in the book, ‘Law Enforcement Handgun Digest’, published in 1980
I've made that very statement on several occasions when discussing things like the FBI Miami Shootout or famous shootouts where wounding was ineffective against the bad guy. The guns weren't usually bad, the ammo was definitely an issue. While the guns could definitely be improved, the ammo being used was an issue in that fight. The standard FBI load was a 158 grain lead hollow point +P load used in both 38's and 357's. They had the option of carrying the FBI's other revolver load for 357 magnums, a Winchester 145 grain hollow point. However, the large capacity (14 rounds) Smith 459's they carrying were loaded with 9mm Hollow Points designed more for reliability, then stopping power according to most reports. The fatal (but slow acting) wound to Platt was delivered early in the gunfight by a Smith 459 wielded by Jerry Dove (who's Smith 459 was then incapacitated by Platt's rifle shot and he was subsequently killed by Platt). The concept of stopping power wasn't a scientifically tested procedure for ammo at that time. It was based at that time on anecdotal evidence on field reports of past shootings. The ammo in 9mm (and other ammo) was not as effective as believed by the FBI (or most law enforcement) prompting a major change in how ammo was tested and verified for its wounding and killing effects.
Another problem In the FBI gunfight was that Platt brought a semi auto rifle to a handgun fight. The only thing the FBI had on them were handguns and a couple of shotguns (only one was deployed by Mireles to help end the fight). Now many cops carry patrol rifles in their vehicles in case they run into rifle or heavily armed opponents and to keep their distance (distance is safety).
Training also improved, including more realistic scenarios and better quality of tactical on the street training. More training with regular agents (not just HRT) on shotguns and rifles. Plus, FBI now better handguns and more effective ammo, rifles as well as shotguns in their standard vehicles.
I went through FBI New Agent Training in 1998 and retired in 2018. During my 20 years in the Bureau, the qualification course changed three times. It went from a good course of fire to a terrible course of fire and then a little better.
It seems like working for the state is pretty much the same. The people making these decisions are often out of touch or have their own agenda.
Our pistol qualification course is pretty good, and if you push yourself actually a little challenging. But they want to change it to something else.
My biggest issue is guns and equipment. They make stupid decisions that leave people with common sense scratching their heads.
@@MDR-hn2yz I was actual not only an agent but also an FBI Firearms Instructor. That means I completed the instructor course, and worked the range about twice a quarter. That said I did a temporary duty assignment at the academy training new agents, and went through recertification every four years. The party line was that the qualification course changed to closer reflect the types of law enforcement shootings that were occurring in the real world. I personally think it was changed to get new agents to pass the new agent training. During the 21 week academy a new agent has to qualify about mid point. If they failed they got a little remedial training then tried again. If they still failed they had to recycle or consider a different career. By the time a new agent has that first qualification, the FBI has spent $60 or $80 thousand on them. The firearms training unit had a lot of pressure to get them to pass.
@@mrgman1326 Same. I was a Firearms Instructor for 3 years. Which was pretty similar duty to what you described. We had to become state certified general topics police instructors first, and then complete the firearms instructor course. That was a month of training alone. You were on patrol most of the year, but you would spend a few months (3-5) on various range assignments; academy teaching recruits, your troop range for bi-annual qualifications, patrol rifle, active shooter. It wasn’t a bad gig and after enough seniority on the detail you could eventually get a full time slot. I ended up getting promoted and that was the end of it.
Should have contacted Paul Harrell to borrow his plaid sports coat. Always makes me think of this era.
At 0:29, the reason they used that position was because that is how the body naturally positions itself when in danger, so they practiced getting shots on target like that to be faster and with repetition accurate. This came from Fairbairn methods developed in early 1900s.
1930s
In the 1940s I am sure that a lot of what was done in their shooting training was influenced by SA Delph "Jelly" Bryce. Jelly was recruited during the gangster years of the 30s to give the FBI some gunfighters. He was not a lawyer or an accountant, he had worked in the car theft division in Oklahoma City along with a few others from the OCPD pistol team that were recruited for this purpose. Jelly was reputed to have been born with a gun in his hand and he had a remarkable ability, he was one of those gun fighter types that had excellent hand eye coordination so was pretty good at hip shooting. Not everyone in the FBI possessed his abilities however.
When I got into law enforcement we were just moving away from the course wherein shots started at 50 yards. Now, this was municipal LE, but our state follows the FBI's course. By the time I had to qualify, we shot 18 rounds from 25 yards. This changed over the years. By the time I retired, and currently it's 12 rounds from 25 yards, (6 standing, 6 kneeling) in 25 seconds. Then on command, run to the 15 yard line, draw and fire 3 rounds (12 seconds, I think). Then 3 more strings, each on command, of 3-rounds in 5 seconds. Then, when commanded, run to the 7 yard line, draw and fire a double-tap (8 seconds, I think). Then reload and when told, fire 12 rounds in 25 seconds. Then, on the final command, step forward to the 5 yard line, fire 6 rounds strong hand only, then 6 rounds support hand only. State requires a 70% score, my old agency required an 80% score.
Now, our BUG course had some close-in draw and shoot from the hip (from 3 feet) at the end.
Although ammo carrying systems may not have been issued, there were ammo slides, and dump pouches available for purchase. These were also commonly used.
Way to go, Chris. Your videos are always very interesting, and informative. Thank you.
Thanks, glad you like them!
Thank you. Very enjoyable to watch & learn. (Now I need to dig the M-64, 4” out of the back of the safe and find a 60 yard range.)
Yup. All day, every day...and twice on Sunday. Thanks for the share!!
lol 😂. Agree. They barely qualify at the range then they never shoot again till the next range qualifying. City cops barely know how to handle their sidearms.
I hear that the ATF qual is a silhouette of a dog.
They have four components to their qual:
1: “200 yard, shoot shoot shoot”
2: “Did some say light the fire?”
3: “Dog? He barked first!”
4: “No light, no knock? Sign me up!”
I'm surprised how much improvement was had from the first attempt "as published" compared to the second attempt with reasonable updates in equipment and techniques. If you were to try it again, "open class" with any modern equipment, I'd be curious how well you'd do then. Get video, as always. I really enjoy your content!
I'm surprised that during the Hip-Fire portion Manny didn't come out and tell you to tuck your elbow in to your hip, show you how it's supposed to be done. Pretty sure he helped develop that course of fire. ;-)
Yep, that's how I was taught in our state academy in 1977.
Those are some strange techniques plus 50 and 60 yard shots with a revolver is tough!!
Not with single action.
@@Osprey1994 not with a good slicked-in double action either.
I guess I need to go out to the forest and practice more. My local indoor range only goes to 25 yards and that's where I've done 95% of my practice.
@@KPHVACif you can hit a small target at 25y you’ll be good at 50y too with some practice. And if it gets too easy, you can always add speed or transitioning targets to your drills to make the most out of your limited range. The fundamentals are the same. If you nail a dot drill 3/5/10 yards, that means you know your sight picture and trigger and don’t throw your shots… basically what you need for 50y too. But plenty of people contend themselves with 8“ slow fire groups at 10y which is a little sad.
If you‘re new to longer ranges, then you should practice until you are able to hit a 4“ target at 25y in single action with a regular sized revolver. 8-10“ might be a decent baseline to strive for in double action. Of course all of this becomes more difficult if you’re shooting something like a short J frame or Sp101 vs 3-6“ K frame. I have a 50m range nearby and especially love shooting revolvers at those ranges. Mostly single actions and mostly 44 magnum but also some 357 and 45 colt. Something relaxing about loading and unloading a single action and taking your time at 50m trying to get a 4-8“ group standing up😃 i usually shoot double action 38/357 at shorter ranges in more combat style shooting
If you can shoot 2" groups at 10 yards, then you can shoot 10" groups at 50 yards. AKA 5x farther means your group will be 5x bigger. Lots of practiced people shoot those 2" dot torture dots at 10 yards, and those targets look a lot bigger than 10". So you may be surprised how well you stack up at distance.
I always use the revolver as a primary gun, and I have a ton of '60s and '70s era gunleather and accessories for revolvers. Upside down shoulder rigs, crossdraw holsters, split six speedloader carriers, dump pouches, cartridge loop carriers, etc. They all still work very well. PPC was quite a big sport back when I was a kid in the mid '80s, and the gun club I was a member of had a league for it. A lot of the guys there had custom heavy barrel compensated PPC revolvers. It wasn't unusual to see one in someone's gun box on ranges in those days. Also properly cared for vintage gunleather can easily last over 50 years in continuous service. I've only ever had to do a few minor repairs. You can still find all kinds of wonderful revolver gear that nobody wants now in gunshop odds and ends boxes and all over eBay. Thankfully. I'll be using them forever for my Colt Agent, Cobra, original Charter Arms Bulldog, S&W 31, 36, 37, 40, 640, 49, 2" M15 and 2 1/2" M19. And many others... 😏
I have that PP Colt in 22LR with a 6" barrel - My grandfather's 'HOBO gun' - his words.
Seeing as many of them right now don't even know how to disassemble their firearm let alone how they're properly use it. I feel pretty good about my odds
I was just about to ask for a comparison without the dated technique parts, so I'm glad that was included.
An S&W M1917 with half moon clips could make a nice period-accurate choice as well
Can you outshoot an FBI agent? Only if you have the tiniest bit of gun-handling experience.
EXACTLY!!!
Says someone who's never even met an FBI Special Agent...🤣🤣🤣
Sorry to burst your bubble, but they're well trained & excellent shots.
This reminds me a lot of Victorian and Edwardian Historical European Martial Arts reconstruction and research.
Watching this, it makes a lot of sense why the FBI said Jeff Cooper's 1911 was unfair.
It's obviously hard for me to fully understand their thinking 85 years later, but I just can't imagine why the 1911 didn't completely take over policing following WWI and especially WWII. You get 2 extra rounds and WAY faster reloads with a single action trigger pull every time. The cost and weight penalty seem acceptable when you're going into a gunfight.
@@heyhayhay247 mostly because of safety. Especially with a lot of police agencies doing barely any shooting training, and many decision makers not a untrained cops to safely carry cocked and locked, or to remember to disengage a safety in an emergency. A double action revolver was seen as the safest option.
@@MrDRSMAX fair, but how expensive could it have been to train guys on a gun that had tons of surplus ammo at a time when gun ranges were much more casual and accessible, especially on a gun they might already have some familiarity from their time in service.
@@heyhayhay247cops of that time grew up shooting revolvers, not auto pistols. They are easier to operate with less of a learning curve. No one really cared about “capacity” like today’s RUclips generation. And revolvers were powerful. They got the job done just fine, same as today.
@@66smithra Revolvers are still a useful tool, but I would never take one over a 1911 from 1924 forward. I'd take one over a club or a knife, but ultimately, they've been a niche gun for over 30 years now which probably should have happened much earlier. Unfortunately, it took a tragedy in Miami for law enforcement to finally realize that revolvers weren't their best option.
John as ASP channel recommends practicing shooting from different positions. One may have fallen to the ground or sitting or prone may be the only positions that provide cover. I took an AR defense class that included police qualification test. We had to shoot standing, kneeling, sitting and prone.
Train to group at seven yards using the sight picture. Then repeat at ten yards. Then repeat at fifteen yards. Start your range session at five yards with a point shoot “Bill Drill” and use a shot timer. This works for me and it could work for you.
This would make a really interesting competition. I could imagine a few classes, Classic doing it by the book, Free using any technique, and Open with any equipment.
I have to ground myself before ordering from Lucky Gunner because it's LIGHTENING fast. CawCaaaaw
WARNING: Incoming grammar/spelling correction~
You mean "lightning fast", using the word "lightening" means decreasing the weight of an object, for instance aircraft have hundreds to thousands of lightening holes throughout their sheet metal construction to remove non-structual material to decrease weight. Sometimes lightning hits that plane if it is flying through an electrical storm.
I was a rookie cop in 1990 and I went to firearms instructor course in 1995. I remember this course well. It really was a good course
This actually seems really fun! Would love to see you try it more. Maybe with a five shot revolver, and with a breakopen revolver with speedloaders and so on?
The way the law enforcement sprays and prays is something most of us can do.
Yes,
but also,
get that adrenaline dump in a life or death scenario and see if you don't mag dump and probably miss a lot.
Juss sayin
There is a MAJOR difference. We are accountable for EVERY round. They are NOT.
@@TheDarksideFNothingYup, I’ve been there.
@@TheDarksideFNothing Does 4 combat tours count?
@@mattbrown5511 probably for a lot. But also, in just about all combat footage I've seen folks are mag dumping and likely missing a lot...
You should do a series on the ATF history and training protocols! That would be so cool! They have so many successful operations and raids.
Chris, I always enjoy your videos, and this one is no exception. While I have shot the current FBI qual test many times, I found this one more interesting from a historical perspective.
Chris, my old pal, this is the kind of question that lands you on a naughty list.
A lot of comments from old cops here. I started in 76, it’s good hear their stories.
My first police academy in 1977 they still taught the crouch down and shoot from the hip. Never saw that again after that. Thanks for the great videos.
In 1986 I attended an eight week basic police training course at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and they were still teaching loading loose rounds from the pocket. We also trained with DeSantis holsters that had a integrated 2x2x2 pouch. When I was in the field my agency did issue speed loaders.
Really interesting video, this is the stuff I really like to watch when it comes to gun content. Cant wait for the next vid!
So cool! Haha I love this retro stuff. Good excuse to go out and practice with your wheel gun 😂
Wonderful content, it's great to see the evolution of qualification.
I know you said that women didn't have big enough pockets yet for 35 loose rounds, but the words "tactical purse reload" were revealed to me and my life will be unfulfilled until I see this someday.
Women's purses are like Dr Who's TARDIS. The average ladies' handbag could probably accommodate a belt of .308 and a spares kit, plus cosmetics and two decades worth of lunch receipts.
Watching this before the actual FBI takes this down because of the title 😂
Chris: "I'm not gonna wear a tie and high waisted pants, but..."
Me: Manny Mansfield would have worn a tie and high waisted pants.
Representing an optics company, I would love to shoot this back to back with an iron sighted revolver and then a revolver with a dot sight on it like the Taurus TORO series. Given the time constraints here, the speed advantage of the dot wouldn't matter that much but I bet the accuracy advantage a dot sight brings at distances like 60 yards could make a repeatable and quantifiable improvement in scores.
As always, looking forward to the rest of the series. --Mike
Love the video. One difference in equipment is that the fixed sighted Smith medium frame revolvers were set up so that you could not see the rear sight if the hammer was down. If you wanted to see the rear sight you had to cock the hammer.
This brings back sooo many memories. I took first place with my duty 38 special colt in 1985 on the PPC combat pistol course. Loved it.
Oh cool, looking forward to this series!
These old shooting techniques remind me of jazz hand dance moves from West Side Story.
Hahaha!! Excellent!
Very informative video! Thanks!
Hip shooting or point and shoot is not a bad thing. If you don't have the time to present the gun full extension then hip shooting is very relevant. This method is usually used for extreme close range with no time to aim but only draw and shoot. The idea of going prone position was if there is no concealment or cover then make yourself the smallest target possible and have steadier more accurate shots at longer range by going prone but you take away mobility by going prone. I think kneeling would have been better to reduce the target size of your body although you present a bigger target than prone. Good video. More revolver videos. Thanks for the wheel love.
I’m enjoying this series 🎉
This is great! Looking forward to the rest of the series.
FBI: agents only shoot to defend so only Killzone hits count.
Also FBI: shoot from prone at 60 yards. Honesty never has been their thing.
When you say, "I hope you guys enjoyed that..." That is ALWAYS a resounding YES!
Yes more revolver content! Vintage too 😊
I misread this title and I thought it said "can you shoot an FBI agent" and I was like well i've GOTTA see this
Another great video.
I love when you do this kind of content. I totally want to try it with my wheel gun now
Love these types of videos, thank you!
"Eye" think you should reconsider the non-dominant Eye shooting, because if you get something in your eye you may need to be able to shoot still and it only exposes one side of your head. The non-dominant hand is kind of bogus because you can hold your right hand in front of your left eye easily, but the same is true you may need the non-dominant hand so practice with it so you can shoot. In closing I believe that's why they make you switch up so much and do things you may never normally do so you're ready for the real world, and in a split second. Great video and many of these same type of tactics could have won the war even though they have changed for today.
Using left eye on the left side (or right eye on the right side) also limits your exposure to getting shot by the bad guy. There is another video showing that they were very mindful of staying behind cover as much as possible (e.g. Not taking such a wide stance that your legs or feet become targets).
Interesting! BTW the Federal Bureau of Intimidation/Incineration was first given permission to carry guns, by FDR, AFTER a shootout that failed to bag Dillinger but hit a couple of bystanders.
Not fair to make them take part in a shootout before they were allowed guns!
@@webtoedman LOL! Yep, that’s the Federal Bureau of Intimidation/Incineration. Based on blackmail, J. Edgar started it and it has only gotten worse. Our own NKVD.
Let’s talk context: is that because they set you up or entraped you? Is your life being threatned?
😂
Yes, I can. Then thru now as I tried all of them. I tried the early versions with a dump pouch, did FLETC in the 80s with speed loaders, and use parts of the current qual with a semiauto when I taught.
6:50 - There are actually neurological reasons (beyond limiting how much of your punkin haid you're exposing) for using the same-side eye - right eye/right hand, left eye/left hand. It has to do with compatibility of neural pathways.
Great video. Thanks for doing this. Looks like a lot of fun.
USCG had a very different qual course in early 80s. We shot at a fixed distance - stayed at firing line & target was, I think, 25yds (hey! 40yrs ago & did only once). We used old 1911 gov't mdls & riot guns , shooting from standing, kneeling, prone & supine (on our back). At least that is what I recall. Did okay w/pistol till had to shoot off-hand. Anyone else recall it diff???
That sounds similar to the current U.S. Navy Tables 1 & 3.
This looks interesting, difficult and impractical.
For the purposes of point firing there is a major difference in the grip style of the guns they used then and the grip you are using now. The old grips favored that type of shooting, whereas the modern grips favor shooting in line with your eye. Those traditional thin grips would literally put your middle finger BEHIND the trigger guard, so holding, firing, and controlling the gun often felt more natural when point shooting than any modern grips will ever feel.
At 4:21 compare the forearm angle of the agent and Chris. I Learned to shoot revolvers, as a young cop, on a slightly modified PPC course and discovered early that the secret to hip shooting was keeping the forearm parallel to the ground. With your right arm centered, left to right, on the target and the forearm level it can be very successful even at 25 yards. By my time (1968) the 60-yard prone had been replaced by a 25 yard kneeling. After a while you can reach into a pocket of 30-40 rounds and your hand knows exactly what 5 rounds feels like LOL
Wow, great video. Objective rather than ego based, very refreshing from a 'Guntuber'.
Chris, Love the video. Nail polish on the sights..............I use the white and orange too. All the best this Memorial Holiday weekend. The JJ, SW Penna.
I can simulate the FBI pistol course. I don't have a Colt .38-spl revolver. I do have a S&W-10 in .38-spl. The same size medium frame revolver. Will say I could have an advantage. I upgraded the original, standard S&W wood grips to a pair of combat contour, rosewood grips. Larger sized grips for my larger hands.
The main problem with hip shooting is the lack of detail explanation. It's not exactly an "instinctive" shooting: the rear sight is replaced by spinal cord of shooter, while the front sight is the hand.
The shooter must align his own spinal cord with the vertical line of the target, and the gun hand is thrown between both.
I learned an improved version of this technique where the weak arm is thrown backwards to counterbalance the gun rising. This movement stops the gun always at same height. I got an average of 85% center hits with this technique.
I learned this variation from an Italian that fought with Partisans in WW2 and was trained by British SOE agents. He taught this technique with front, sides and rear targets - very similar to the shown in 007 films opening scenes (Timothy Dalton performs it perfectly).
This is great. Thank you for covering this topic.
This was great! Looking forward to more videos!
Pretty interesting to see how far training courses have come over the decades.
Yet another great video from Chris. Thanks. I always love your revolver content.
My dad was a SA in the '60s. I have a couple of old hard-bound training books (they look like little novels) that are signed by Hoover that were apparently given out to all Quantico graduates. In those books are line drawings of shooting positions, etc. It's crazy how naive they were. Well, it's crazy to see it right there, in black-and-white.
ETA: His carry piece was a classic S&W snub nose in .38 special. My mother used to sew reinforcement patches into all his new suits, because his hip holster would wear his jacket and his trousers.
Thank you!
Back when I worked at a range we had DHS rent out the range for training and they were all mediocre at best.
I went to a match back in March and there was a DHS guy there. He surprised me by how subpar he was, and how awkward he looked moving and shooting.
Not sure if the average FBI agent would be any better, but it made me question the quality/ quantity of training that feds get.
My FBI agent, glancing through my browser history and seeing this video title: 🧐
I think the biggest fault with this course is always loading 5 rounds into a 6 shot revolver. Were they only carrying 5 on duty, or did they load all 6? Seem like it would be really easy to create some bad habits under stress.
The course designers were from a era before revolvers were made drop safe with hammer block safeties.
Colt started the positive lock in 1905 and S&W started their hammer block safety in 1915 I think.
@@josephknaak9034 I don't know about Colt, but S&W started after the Navy in WWII had a couple of discharges from dropped revolvers.
@@craigbenz4835actually they had a drop safety on guns before ww2. It was more intricate. They simply improved the design on the one after ww2. The original hammer block came out in the late teens or earky 20s I believe. My 1927 M&P has the old style hammer block.
I've talked to a few older agents (1980s) who carried the revolver. Speed loaders did exist, but management did not want the loaders used in qualifications.
Hi Chris, that's a great video! I can't wait for the next one! Thanks for sharing it!🙌
Great video as always, Chris! I really enjoy your presentations.
I was a LEO, county and state from 1972-2009. Since I qualified "expert" literally every time I qualified, I would say yes. Even now at age 77.
I think there's a few pieces of context you missed. First of all, remember these are guys back from World War II using skills that were useful during the war. Second of all ,they were trying to train the FBI to be the most thoroughly trained lawmen on the planet. A lot of the techniques are designed to work on weaknesses. Sure it's not likely you need to shoot laying down but what would you do if you were wounded? A lot of these techniques are specific to lawmen and not just self-defense shootings. They frequently need to know how to deal with awkwardness. The course is also a good indicator of general fitness for duty and not just marksmanship.
interesting video thanks!
Great work. I am looking forward to the rest of the series.
Don’t test me bro
I feel like this is a quote from God to Moses in “The Message” version of the Bible.
^5!
Good vid, definitely has me curious. I mostly shoot long range but have recently purchased 3 9mm pistols and practice often. In order to be proficient with my EDC, I shoot at least 100 rounds every week. I've always felt kinda silly just standing in front of one paper target down a single lane. I'm probably going to reserve a few hours of range time this Wednesday at the outdoor range. I have zero natural pistol shooting ability but with lots of practice and watching numerous videos, Ive come up with my own grip to eliminate my low n left shooting and don't really need to think to much