Mr. Baker, this is a top-notch video. As a survivor myself in a self-defense shooting while on duty (I'm now retired), I can tell folks that in such a high-stress, chaotic event you won't be able to "focus" on anything but your attacker, and both eyes WILL be open. This is our natural response to a deadly threat, so you're probably not going to focus on your sights. However, if you are able to raise the pistol to eye level, you can "reference" your front sight, like you said. You're not "looking" at them, but you can see a hazy image of them. The instant that image flashes on the target, pull the trigger. This is called "Flash Sight Picture" shooting, and I can attest to the fact that it works. But again, you are in fact correct in that a large percentage of private citizen self-defense shooting do involve only "point" shooting. Job well done sir, keep the vids coming to us.
Agree with a lot of points. Mine stared out at about 12-15 yard distance, and my first shot wasn’t so much “point” shooting, as it was instinctive and a reaction to having been shot at. Pretty sure that one hit the ground, short of where it needed to be, as I wanted to see all of the bad guy and my gun was aimed too low. After the past training instructor voices screaming inside my head, I started repeating “front sight, front sight” and for my 2-4 shots, I picked up the sights. The threat was moving laterally at first, as related to me, before turning to run, presumably after being hit, and opening up to about 60 yards, which is where I fired my 4th and last shot. I wasn’t standing still either, and was shuffling backwards in a kind of a J-hook to get behind cover. My deal was outside of the norm for handgun distances, with just street lights for illumination, and there was a lot of movement in just a few seconds. Had I not picked up the sights, the shots after the first one might have been all misses, and the bad guy might not have been dissuaded from continuing his actions, which also means his accuracy may have improved as well, with negative consequences for me. I’m no expert in any of this, but from my experience and several others, I draw a personal conclusion that practice should include the more common distances, but also training with sights and maybe not from perfect positions, because there’s a chance that whatever is trying to do you harm, won’t cooperate and stand like a paper silhouette at a designated distance.
I don't remember seeing the sites! 2 good hits at 10 feet. Home invader just out of jail after doing 2 years of a 10 year sentence for almost beating a woman death!
Whenever I see footage of a range that isn't e.g. a company's closed off internal testing range I'm always baffled by how seemingly every single one of them has tons of bullet holes in places that absolutely should not have them unless you wanted to hit exactly those spots. You could set up a range in a coal mine and they'd shoot a plane out of the sky
Further apart than "an arms length" BEGINS pistol range! Closer than that, it is "Our gun". Attacker defines "when and where". A defender is always .2 to .8 seconds behind the attacker! "Be polite, But have a plan to kill everyone you meet".
What irks me is the people on either end, who ONLY say that you should practice point shooting or ONLY practice one specific shooting posture with full arm extension and perfect sight picture. It's like fighters that ONLY say you should practice a right hook. Why would that ever make sense?
@@mikewallace8087 useful different skill to useful different skill. The comparison isn't LITERAL one to one dude, it's the concept of different skills that take practice, and you need to practice all of them to be well rounded. Don't be obtuse.
@@mikewallace8087 c'mon,you've never seen "Wanted" where they were curving the bullets? those are "hooks"....Seriously,he's saying that if you only practice one skill,then you are severely limiting yourself......The absolute best response you could give right now would be..."Guy's,it was a JOKE"
chris is right when he says if you practice it should mostly be sighted practice. i agree because if you get good at sighted fire, to an instinctual level where it's automatic, your body will learn that index to the highest level of precision. so when you enter a situation that you can't see or use your sights, your body will still have an extremely precise index towards what your attention is focused on. this enables you to focus your entire being on the threat, following it with your eyes and moving your body accordingly, while not thinking at all about your technique, and at a master's level your precision will be such that your index automatically aligns your point of aim with where your eyes are even if you aren't using your sights. i think when people debate "sighted fire vs point shooting" they overlook this entire point, and that ultimately the two things are more or less the same. the only real difference is that at a low level of competence it FEELS like "sighted fire" because you're still learning that index, and at a high level of competence it simply becomes being able to shoot what you're looking at without thinking about the technique of it all. it all becomes automatic and when it's automatic it's INSTINCTIVE. on the range you're focusing on your sights, in a fight your eyes are locked to what's trying to kill you, you train technique so that your body automatically falls into lockstep so that your mind and eyes can focus on the thing trying to kill you with utmost confidence that your body will be pointing your gun at exactly the point your eyes are locked on.
yeah, in some dangerous situation and suddenly you have to use your reflex, there is basically no time for aimming and it will be easier, faster to aim if you are used to it am I right?
True. Focus practice on developing muscle memory that puts aligned sights on target upon full extension. Dry fire is all that is needed to develop this ability.
I love how you adress any counter arguments you're likely to hear in every video, and you never just dismiss others experiences. Incredibly in depth, analytical, unbiased, professional advice.
The 20 yards question reminds me of the tragedy that took place in a church a few years ago. A man started shooting guests, including a volunteer guard who was too slow on his draw, when another volunteer guard took one well aimed shot from at least 20 yards and took down the active shooter. He was an older fellow who had many years of practice on his resume and used those sights in a crowded room full of chaos to his advantage.
If you are present at a “mass shooting” in a public place, you may have an opportunity to put shots on the bad guy from cover at a distance. Your defensive handgun skills should cover the distance from 1 yard to 25 or more yards. At longer distances you might have the opportunity to use cover and take your time shooting. If you do not have cover, running like heck to get to cover is a better option than trying to make a long shot from out in the open. All shooting scenarios are “rare” in our country, You may not have to change a flat tire very often, but if you are going to drive a car, it is a skill you should have.
What an excellent comment. Whenever I had a student who began spouting made up statistics about how "all defensive shootings are short range", usually in an effort to justify a lack of training or practice, or carrying a tiny gun that was only useful at short range, I'd ask them to go to a Walmart and pace off a retail store aisle. I'd then tell them that if they had not learned to shoot well at 25 yards, or insisted on carrying a tiny gun that could not be shot well at that distance, their best option in an active shooter event was to run and hide like everyone else, and hope to get off a close range shot when the shooter came to execute them. I then told them to pray that the shooter was as unskilled and poorly armed as they were. This normally made the point rather clearly. When I first started in law enforcement in the late 70's, 40% of our qualification course was shot at 50 yards and included weak hand shooting at that range. Even today I do some practice at that range, not because I think I'm going to get into a 50 yard fight, but rather to make sure I can handle a 25 yard confrontation. I also make it a point to carry a sidearm that can be shot well at that range. It really isn't that difficult.
Pretty interesting video. Being french, most of us shooters don't own handguns for defense but for sport, officially at least. The gun culture here is therefore centered around accuracy, and even those who train for sd/hd pretty much always go for slow, accurate shooting. Don't get me wrong, it's good to do that, but not if you _only_ do that. Pointshooting encourages you to shoot fast, makes you worry less about the muzzle flip and allows "shy" shooters to fire quick followed up shots that they'd only do with 22lr pistols (if ever). Practicing that way at short ranges makes people aware of their capacity to use a pistol in x y caliber in a real situation. Some 45acp slow shooters might see they're all over the place when trying to fire their gun quickly. Others might realize that with their current level, they'd better switch to 32acp/9mm short rather than shoot a polymer 9mm they can barely handle. It's also the occasion to check your ability to shoot one handed- chances are, you won't be able to have your optimized two handed shooting position in a real shooting. All this made me personnally a bit more humble and pushed me to switch to smaller caliber pistols that i shoot way faster and more accurately when pointshooting. Smaller holes, but more of 'em in better places. I hope this can help anyone.
It's good that you mentioned shooting one handed. I would add that it's a good idea to practice shooting only strong hand and only weak hand in case one of your arms or hands is wounded, you can still defend. I personally know of two soldiers, one got nicked by a bullet on the upper arm and the other was nicked by a bullet on the wrist. Both wounds only required a band-aid, but in each case, the soldier lost total use of that arm for a couple of hours. Their arms simply went dead like when your legs go to sleep and fall on your face. A band-aid and a couple of hours later, everything was working again. No Purple Heart, just a Band-aid.
The use of an airsoft for point shooting training is a valuable starter skill and for skills retention training. Can be done in any home or yard setting but still observe muzzle safety. Thanks for the great videos, I went out and practiced with my 9 yesterday, it was indeed valuable and rewarding.
"Point shooting", or whatever you call it, is simply muscle memory acquired through thousands of iterations. The person who puts in the work gets the hits. Done.
exactly. the whole point of training is to get your muscle memory to a point that it indexes your body structure to be able to point a gun, reliably and stably, at whatever your eyes are locked on to. this enables extreme speed and precision, and it's the same thing pro gamers in first person shooters do. you train grip, footing, and sighted fire, so that the muscle memory becomes so dialed in that once you reach mastery, you can now automatically index your body to where ever your eyes are focused with extreme speed and precision. your sights will be aligned automatically because of muscle memory, you won't need to visually confirm sight picture, because there is no time to do so, and no need because you KNOW your body is indexing the gun exactly to the point that your eyes are focused, so you can focus entirely on the threat and not making sure your sight picture is perfect. you train sight picture so that when you call on your muscle memory, the muscle memory you have learned is one that ALWAYS has the sights perfectly aligned, and at that level you don't need to confirm it by looking down them, you just assume your drilled shooting posture and focus your entire being on the threat and rounds will go where your eyes are centered.
Great video. 2 points: I think a draw from concealment under stress or while moving would have favored point shooting more, especially at close ranges. With an ideal grip at low ready, it doesn't take any extra effort to acquire the sights. But in a situation where your draw might not be ideal and you are acquiring a sight picture with the gun canted or twisted, or you are running so that the sights are bouncing; finding your sights might require significantly more time. Point shooting can gain an advantage in these scenarios in my opinion. Second point: serendipitously, Jerry Miculek just did a point shooting video on his channel. His was closer to the old-school hip-fire technique. As you mentioned, it can be very fast and relatively accurate, which he demonstrated. I highly recommend that people go watch that video. Point shooting does require practice to master. I've found that with practice I can get a hit on a 3 inch ring at 3 yards from concealment in about 1.2 s. That addresses a large percentage (supposedly) of self defense encounters.
Chris, before I retired, I owned a private training school in addition to my law enforcement duties. I trained about 30,000 private citizens, mostly beginners, in the defensive use of handguns. This was in the pre-RUclips era, and back then training doctrine had to be developed from scratch. Pretty much what we had were training materials based on Bullseye and PPC shooting, and these weren't all that helpful. I respect how you approach shooting problems and your integrity in reporting your results to all of us. At the end of this video I was smiling, because the conclusions you reached were the same ones I came to more than 30 years ago. What I told my students, in an effort to make things easier for them to remember, was that from 0-10 feet, they could fire without needing to see their sights, so long as they exercised good trigger control, and brought the gun to as close an eye level point as they could. We only did this exercise after the students had worked on their sighted fire, and then they got surprisingly good results with "point fire". We then did an exercise that I called "retention fire" where the gun was indexed to the pectoral muscle for extreme close quarters shooting. We showed the students that these shots would be low by the same distance between the pectoral muscle and the eye line, but that was okay and made it less likely they would be disarmed. We then went to distances between 10 feet and 10 yards, and showed them that at these ranges, a "flash sight picture" that merely superimposed the front sight on the area to be hit would work well. Again, trigger control was stressed. Then we moved to shots beyond 10 yards, where I advocated a "hard sight picture" with the classic alignment of front and rear sight. I freely admitted that my 10 feet, 10 yards, and over 10 yards were only guidelines, and that more athletic people with better hand-eye coordination could probably stretch these distances a bit with a handgun that really fit well, provided they knew how to manage a trigger. Back at the time I took a lot of grief from instructors who either felt that "every shot should be a sighted shot", and those who felt that sights on a defensive handgun were irrelevant. My last admonishment to each class was if given a choice between practicing sighted fire or unsighted fire, they should spend the most time using sights. I told them that if they did this, when they encountered a situation where they could not see their sights, they would be fine, but that the reverse (practicing mostly unsighted fire) was not true. Over the years I had many of these students back to my range for defense shooting drills and I was pleased to see that most of them who did only dry fire exercises at home (heavily emphasized in our classes) could still hit well with their pistols. I was happy to see in this video that a modern day expert like yourself has come to largely the same conclusions.
It goes without saying that any shooting, whether aimed or instinctive, should be practiced. When shooting at a range where they allowed it, I practiced point shooting out to around 4 yards and it is a skill that can be rapidly developed with consistent hits to the "A" zone. Under stress, your eyes will do what they want - and at close range, they are more likely to focus on the threat. Point shooting is absolutely a good skill to develop.
There's a lot of options for this kind of content on this platform these days. I must say I greatly appreciated your thorough, objective, and scientific approach to the consideration of these topics, sir! Well done! I eagerly look forward to each one of your videos. Keep up the great work! 💪🏾
You are exactly on "point" about practicing sighted fire and how that relates to point shooting. I put this to the test many times in our shooting league, good fundamentals learned through sighted fire lead to good point shooting ability.
One thing that I don’t see people train much is moving and shooting, also shooting while moving. Most indoor ranges suck for this, so you may need to find another method or place to do this. Airsoft with a training partner is great for this. The last thing you want to do is stand still in front of an armed threat and try to out draw them. The reason is because actions are faster than reactions. So the idea is to shift yourself from the initial reactor (of a perceived threat) to the threat becoming the reactor (to you moving while counter attacking). Getting off axis also makes you harder to shoot/stab/attack etc. This is meant to buy you time to react and defend with more chance of success. You’ll see this with boxers and MMA all the time (until they get tired, which is why endurance is key to their success).
that's actually true, I have friends who's wife does just that. she says she just likes to try and balance the numbers, content of the video doesn't matter.
I’ve done multiple days of force on force training before and after taking a multi day course on reflexive shooting using the teachings of people like Bob Taubert. In the force on force there were absolutely times I needed to see my sights because without them I kept missing. Besides the legal implications of those missed shots, missing those shots gave my opponent more time to land a fatal shot on myself. In the reflexive shooting course the instructors ended the second and final day by having us do a walk back drill starting at contact distance. At 7 yd even after two days of nonstop reflexive shooting (we removed or covered our pistol sights) most of the class agreed we were at a point where the accuracy gained by using our sights made up for the additional time taken to fully acquire the sights. At 10 yd everyone wanted to be using their sights. The final lesson was that we were not to walk away from the course thinking sights weren’t needed or important. The point of the course was there are times when a practiced index with the pistol was an acceptable form of sight picture, but that’s not true at all times.
@@musicman1eanda At close range, I use "point shooting" or "instinctive sighting". At longer range the sights are used. "Close range" and "long range" are subjective and vary from shooter to shooter. For me, I can point and hit a 6inch diameter steel circle out to 7yards. You just have to practice enough to know your abilities.
My complements to whoever spent the time editing the last few seconds of this video. Actually made me laugh out loud. I really enjoy this channel. Keep up the good work.
Since most gun fights are 7 yards are closer and on average last less than 5 seconds, the front sight, sight picture and good trigger manipulation are more important than sight alignment.
Mr.Baker is a constant of reasonable, common sense. Other "professionals" always insist their methods are best. I am personally tired of hearing my edc should be full size 9mm/40, with 3 spare magazines.
The point shoot is most beneficial on a one handed draw, from holster, at ranges and time limits not possible for sighted fire. Lock the firing hand elbow against upper hip, level the forearm, and fire until room to aim is available. Very difficult to see draw or disarm due to high cross guard of other arm and blading.
Good info. I was always taught (four seperate academies) that at close range, 5 yards or so, just push your front sight to center of mass and pull the trigger and in real close quarters to keep the gun in tight at your hip (gunfighter style) for weapons retention reasons and instinct shoot. Anything further than 5 yards or so use both sights if time permits because you are liable for where every bullet lands. Don't shoot if your backstop is not clear unless lives will be lost if you don't shoot. Not that you will have time for all of that thinking, which is why practicing each style at the appropriate range is crucial so you just do it naturally. Some academies teach front sight only, period. But that is no good at longer distances. Maybe that is why a lot of cops are bad shots.
You already said what I want to comment. a. Side stomach, 1 hand. Distance : real close b. Cowboy style. Distance : +- 1 m - 3 m. c. Eye sight, 2 hands. Distance : further. Disadvantage. a. back protruding elbow. Can't do it when back against wall b. miss. Required practice & talent, for longer range c. takes time. Need to Start draw . . early, required experience & advance situational awareness.
@@musicman1eanda Nothing wrong with a dot, if you have the time and physical space to use them. It certainly makes you a much better shot at distances over five yards.
Part of me wants to say the sights are useless because in a defensive gun fight you're just not going to have time to get a good sight picture. But then I got an opportunity to run through a live fire exercise in a shoot house armed with a rifle and I missed like three shots on a man sized target that was within 7 yards distance because I hip fired at it. I felt like I couldn't miss, but I did, repeatedly.
Hey Chris! Great video as always. When I was a LEO, part of our firearms qual required basically shooting from the hip from a holster at 2ft. Obviously sights weren’t used! Your shot placement was solid. Thoracic V. Deadly.
Exactly!!!!! We practiced so close we could reach out with our left hand and touch the side of the target before we shot. Super close!!! Because that’s how close most officers are to the bad guy in the “fatal funnel” when at the window of the offenders car. Nowhere to go and he has the drop on you.
I just hated that I couldn't give you more Thumbs Ups for this Video. Summarising and presenting a rationale argument for a topic spanning 100's of years in 12.28minutes. Well done !
Despite being British I've been shooting air rifles, shotguns, air pistols, recurve bows, compound bows and crossbows since I was about 12 and I honestly never use the sights and I'm pretty accurate. I just point/instinctive shoot and I've gotten good at it over the years. I think in self defence most people will point shoot, but not all.
I agree with you, I shoot my bow at 58 ( years old, not meters), just like I always shoot a slingshot since my childhood. It works pretty well for me. Cheers!
Well done, this is fantastic work. My own experience has also been that learning to do sighted fire in a hurry has made me very good at point shooting. Use enough sight for what you need to do.
Great point about the false dichotomy. I like to train for an "acceptable" sight picture. What exactly that looks like depends on distance, target size, urgency, etc. We run a lot of drills with varying target sizes and distances to be sure we drill that difference into our brains.
I've taught a number of people to use a finger indexed on the slide to "point" the gun at the target and then get a sight picture. I found it helped them get on target faster and kept their finger off the trigger.
Well I got this late even though I’m subscribed. There it is Chris, practice. Practice sighted fire at distance and that will help you with unsighted fire close in. You can get good at point shooting until you get good at sighted fire. You can’t get good at point shooting until your draw is where it needs to be and you can only get there with sighted fire. It’s still all about the draw. Practice your draw. Practice your draw. Your body will do as you trained it to do under stress, You will not have much time as any to think. Your body will do as you train it to do. The one place where we differ Chris is that I don’t fully extend until right around 15 yards and better. I also don’t raise the gun to the level of my eyes to use the sights and less I intend on using the sights. I literally shoot from a centered retention position (?); not above the chest and half way extended. Anyway, good job. It’s whatever really works for you. I don’t need the optics, I rarely use the sights and I get the same kind of hits from 7 to 15.
Sage Dynamics has an interesting video on this concept where the gets a near perfect score on the FBI qualification using a handgun that has no sights.
No doubt that's a little bit funny and Aaron is a good shot. At the same time, even a handgun that nominally has no sights doesn't completely lack the ability to mechanically Amite, even if you are just lining up different colored points on the slide. It's not going to work quite as well as an actual set of sight but you are still putting in more mechanical effort than "point shooting" so to speak. If anything, I'm not a neurologist so take this with a grain of salt, perhaps that experiment proves that while aming your gun intentionally is important, a set of sights is only part of that - a big part of it, but not the only way. (e.g. Colonial era muskets didn't have conventional sights but, despite Hollywood convention, people did aim them to a degree)
Most defensive handgun use will be well under 5 yards, and the majority 3 yards or less. So "point shooting" works well for most defensive work. You also gain the benefit of keeping both eyes open and having batter awareness. If the assailant is more than 5 yards away you have to consider that taking cover or retreating might be a better tactic than shooting anyway (unless he's charging you). This is a good video and confirms most of what I have trained for.
I've not been in a SD shooting with a human but I was charged by a wild boar 4 years ago. I always have a 10mm Glock on me while hiking. First of I can say that everything goes extremely fast. Crackling bushes, big brown beast of a pig charging, brain realises and snaps to training, draw gun point the gun and shoot. I did not get hurt. I didn't actively look at my sights like when you shoot a handgun for the first time but I picked them up and somewhat alined them with the pig. Great video guys! Some of the best on RUclips
I swapped my grips out for a pair of CTC laser...perfect when you don’t have the luxury of time to line up your sights. The bad guy may question your aim but rarely the red dot on his chest.
Good stuff. One thing to note, we can’t draw from holster in 90% of ranges. Place your gun at the table to “simulate” not being at the ready or holstered. Also try to incorporate simulated malfunctions. Put in one bullet, or a snap cap, and so on. Happy shooting!
The point at about the 11:00 mark about "getting fast with sights basically makes you a point-shooting master"... Yes. 100%. I've shot and carried one pistol for the last 6 years. Just in the last 12 months, I've put about 2,000 rounds through it. I can close my eyes and press the gun out, and if the sights aren't lined up, they'd damn close.
Good video and good information. As a retired police officer, I’ve always practice point shooting. When we qualify, we first start at 3 yards, the first two exercises are drawing from the holster and hip shooting two rounds at the target.
Interesting video. It made me be even happier that my Sig P365 has the Sig trigger guard laser that comes on as soon as I grip the weapon. Unless I use poor trigger management, at close to medium distances, I'll be hitting at precisely what I aim at without using the sights, or even without fully raising the pistol.
Except you don’t actually see the dot of the laser as quick as you think which a timer would prove. Looking over the top of the slide is still quickest in tight. The lasers are crap in bright light against dark clothing. Slows you way down for no reason as you don’t even need them. They are an idea that sounds better than it is in practice under realistic conditions. A red dot sight is even quicker than a laser.
@@graywind4326 Since a red dot doesn't work well with my pocket carried P365 (which is packing 14+1 with a MagGuts +2 extender kit)--although I've got RMR's on each of my recently acquired Masada, Canik TP9SFX and Springfield Armory XDM Elite (my many other older pistols aren't optics ready), together with a Olight Baldr Mini light/laser combo--I find the laser on my P365 absolutely perfect for me at night at almost any self defense distance, and during the day at distances of up to at least 10 yards. As I draw the P365 from my pocket holster, immediately upon leveling the weapon, that dot is only an inch or two off from where I need it to be, at a distance of 50 feet (I practice this often), without even thinking about it, and in a fraction of a second it's dead on target (pun intended). Like so many things in life, different people have different experiences, different training, different skill levels, and different likes and dislikes. That you hate lasers or find them not useful for your needs is perfectly fine with me. On the other hand, I have a laser on EVERY pistol in my rather extensive arsenal, and two (red and green bore height, but on opposite sides of the barrel), on every long gun I own (and I own a whole bunch) as well--except two. One is a 22lr from the '60s (which has nothing to mount anything on), and my Browning A-5 12 ga. semi-auto, which because of a different setup has both lasers on the same side, and not barrel height, since it too was made without rails or mounting capability and now sports a 'saddle' for these. So, because of extensive use and experience over many years with lasers, I have a totally different experience and perspective from you. Your disfavoring of lasers reminds me of way back when red dots first came out, and all of the "experts" were looking down their noses at anyone lame enough to suggest that a red dot was an important addition to their weapon. They all demanded that everyone master "the irons', and anyone who thought otherwise wasn't worthy of carrying a firearm. I often laugh to myself when I now see so many (practically all, in fact) of these "experts" who are now sporting (if not actually extolling) red dots (and occasionally a laser). The only constant in life is change. Perhaps one day, so will your opinion of lasers. Not that I actually give a rat's patoot.
@@gb93669 I was referring simply to not caring about whether or not you changed how you thought about lasers. I am, however, quite enthusiastic about my own use of lasers, and their hopeful adoption by large segments of the firearms community (particularly the non-luddite types among that community). Reminds me of a famous quote: "“People who appear to be resisting change may simply be the victim of bad habits. Habit, like gravity, never takes a day off.”".
Amazing info, the myth of "beyond a few feet isn't justifiable" is so false, if you are in a deadly situation no one will look the other way if you put someone down at 25 yards who is shooting at you or someone.
Exactly. "How far can one justify self defence?" Is answered by asking "How far can I be attacked?" 100 yards against a knife? Gonna say no. 100 yards with a firearm? If he's in range, so am I.
@@thesmallestminorityisthein4045 yes, just like he said, I'd you are taking incoming fire from 20 30 yards out then you are well within your rights to engage (accurately and safely) that's the caveat, you have to make sure your shots are safely made.
@@danielschmidt7153 Yeah. I have this feeling not enough people are considering the shots beeing safe in regards to the surroundings of the target in an emergency, when generally discussing this. In a large amount of the area where people live it gets a bit complicated to shoot in any direction (that's because more people are where more people are. Put a bit jokingly.) I'm sure plenty are thinking of that. But you don't need many not to be for it to be less then great. Anyways. That wasn't really the point of this conversation. Pardon me.
@@Sir.Craze- one of the biggest things I taught for law enforcement handgun training was always always always sweep your surroundings, just because bad guy is shooting you from 20 yards away doesn't mean you'll be able to, people and objects always play a role in a gunfight, especially in enclosed areas.
Again another rational look at the subject. Partaking in some formal training is always beneficial, regardless of which training facility you attend. Personally, I went to Front Sight, which I found to be pretty decent "training for the masses" and my shooting certainly improved by the end of 4 days, plus it was a lot of fun.
We did a similar drill with the sights taped up in a Langdon class awhile back, I think we did the drill at ten yards. It did reinforce my belief that trigger control is vastly more important than sight alignment in pistol shooting. Mr. Langdon was very adamant that he wasn't teaching "point shooting" but more a trust in solid fundamentals in the event your sights become occluded in any particular situation.
Great video. Here's a point about the idea that since some survivors have zero memory of seeing their sights, then they must have simply not used them and instead used point shooting. Not remembering something does not mean that it simply didn't happen. I have fortunately never been in a citizen involved shooting, but I am a lifelong hunter. I can't say that I specifically remember the sight picture on the vast majority of shots taken. In fact, when the adrenaline is pumping, I don't remember the recoil from most shots taken or even the sound of the rifle or shotgun firing, even with my .35 Whelen. Not specifically remembering the recoil or muzzle blast in no way means that those things disappeared.
Great overall view again. One thing that I do is practice both strong hand, off hand and both hands. Makes a huge difference on sight use and point shooting. You never know when you may be injured in your primary hand and need to make that left meat hook do something useful besides steady your right. ;)
Every time you make these practical defense discussion videos I'm always impressed. Very informative, you have a humble attitude, and it feels like you're taking in a wide variety of sources to discuss the topic. Really enjoy these and I learn a lot.
Of course I agree that way too much attention is given to stance. This part of shooting has changed a number of times since the 1920s. I think a person should practice one handed with both hands and be able to shoot from any position. I like the old training videos of guys with one hand in their pocket, shooting one handed.
Yes sights are useful, maybe not in the sense we think. Dry firing endless times to get muscle memory, we use our sights to make sure we are on target when we push the gun out. Part of that dry firing is to eventually build your muscle memory to the point you can have your eyes closed as you push the gun out, then open your eyes to see if you were on target just from the muscle memory itself. This is so in case you have to defend yourself in the dark, you'll know that the gun is in the right position instinctively. But it is also for when you are stressed, your muscle memory takes over and will put the gun on target even without looking at the sights.
Totally delighted to have a point shoot discussion. Too much talk about "sights". I have had two close range "encounters" and never had to pull the trigger. What I don't hear mentioned or missed was "tunnel vision". I get it bad when threatened... my vision shrinks to a maybe 8" in circle at 10ft. One attacker that I let way to close caused my last thought to be "oh god this is going to be point blank" and I was thinking an up angle under rib chest shot. Attacker finally figured out I had a .357 magnum and very wisely reversed direction. Other fellow kept a few feet from me. My 357 was hidden under a magazine I was reading. As my tunnel vision was getting bad he also figured out what was under the magazine and said, "you have a gun"... end of encounter instantly. Knowing me I won't be able to use sights and I practice point shooting... it takes lots of practice! Amazing how good you can get pointing when instinct kicks in. IMHO "surprise" is an essential element to a good defense. Keeping the gun hidden has given me "time" to assess the threat and prepare a fight ending response. Glad I did not have to kill someone but that does not mean I wouldn't if they make me. I have done some hunting with the 357 and it is a very deadly little pill so I have no issues with letting someone get close... it ain't your grandma's 9.
I will agree with your findings on this vid, I learned to point shoot back in the early 70's, an you are correct, 7 yds is what I was taught was the reasonable distance for hits on target, anything more an you were to far outside the cone of fire, think like a machine gun. Never thought about old school sites vs new school sites, an yes newer site are alot better in my book. I will buy ammo when you get in what I need, I keep checking your site, thx for the vid.
Moving under stress 2 eyes open focusing on the moving agressor at less than 15 yards one hand firing the fastest possible with no finger discipline is why i choosed a gun with a great natural point of aim, low recoil calibre and... no red dot for now. Thanks for those great video.
Aaah people are walking around with their sights covered up. That explains a lot of what I've seen. Lol get out to the range guys! Even if its your yard with an airsoft. Get that presentation sharp 🤠
as a person on a journy in being a responsible, trained and competent gun owner, I have found many of your videos incredibly informative. I especially appreciate the debunking of myths with straight forward facts and experimentation. truly, thank you.
I learned how to drive on a Colomn shift, but those days are long gone also. "One Focal Plane is better then Three " and not too many people out there are using AR Iron Sights, there's a Reason to that. Threat Focus and your good to go.
@@Sanctified_Leather I thought we was talking about pistols but regardless everybody should know how to train and shoot with iron sights never know when your optics could bite the dust...just sayin.
@@raynichol2477 agree with you, but my RMR's won't bite the Dust, and I was first Trained along time ago on Irons I'm good to go 👍 but I do get your point
@@musicman1eanda i started shooting when I was 11 or 12 and I'm 61 now so I've got a decent collection of firearms and optics but still wouldn't hesitate to grab one without anything on it.
This video is pure gold , I encourage anyone who wants to practice defensive shooting to test him/her self on the FBI Q Pistol test , it only takes 50 rounds. Please consider beforehand do some dry fire.
These last two videos on this discussion were really good. I agree with your statements towards the end. If you consistently practice drawing your gun and finding the sights then most of the time when you draw and push out your sights are already aligned. A dry fire practice I do is draw from concealment and present with my eyes shut and then open them and see how aligned my sights are. A good majority of the time they are aligned to the point that even if I wasn’t looking at them at all and “point shooting” I would be getting good hits.
Chris, I’m late to this party, but, I’ve watched both videos in this 2 part series now and found them very well thought out and immensely informative. I like facts, not guesswork, and found Tom Givens research compared to historical data extremely enlightening. I train, and train with, a church security team. We work intensively inside 10 yards; now, the question is how best to incorporate these facts into active training…
I very much appreciate the way Mr. Baker speaks in complete sentences, and does lard his discourse up with that most dumb-sounding of all non-words, "UH." It is a pleasure to listen to him speak !
Chris, this may be your best video ever and that's a hard thing to say because you make so many good videos. I always practice a panicked, adrenaline filled draw from concealment at a 10 inch steel target, bringing the gun up to eye level. I always practice "moving off the X" and shooting as well. I don't look for my front sight because I believe that in a realistic panic situation my attention would be focused on the target and background. I have found that there I am more accurate if I hold the gun at about a 45 degree angle. There is less trigger deflection because it is more natural. When you point your finger at something, look at the angle of your hand. Most people will have their hand canted at about 45 degrees. I encourage people to try this and see how it works for you. I have also seen police body cam footage of cops canting their gun in the same manner.
Very good information here. As a cop and former police firearms instructor, this is essentially how we train. Our qualification course involves firing at the 1.5 and 3 yard line, and shooting without sights. The 1.5 is simply coming out of the holster and firing. 3 is draw & shoot. All timed. Then the 5, 7, 15 & 25 yard line all requires sights. All timed.
it is possible to train with your firearm to the point of effectively knowing where the barrel is pointing in relation to your body. This comes down to using one particular firearm, getting to know its specific behavior and ballistics, and shooting with it enough to have it effectively become an "extension of your body". This won't guarantee hits, and each variable affects how well it works in reality to varying degrees with various people, and there are other factors as well, such as consistent grip. Still generally best for shorter ranges. Think of it like being able to point the barrel at your target as effectively and easily as pointing your finger at them.
Excellent presentation, well thought out. The observation about sighted practice helping point shooting function is spot on. It enhances other motor skills needed.
In order to shoot at 3 to 5 yards without sights you must first learn how to shoot out to 10 yards with sights and do that accurately and for a long time in order to build muscle memory. It is muscle memory that gets you to shout without using the sights. Also what aids instinctive shooting is the correct presentation of the gun when using the sights. The gun must be extended in front of your eyes and driven forward to the target at which time the sights will be perfectly aligned, this is the muscle memory you must build up. Dry Fire Practice works best. First learn how to use the sights adiqualy. Point shooting comes after a lot of practice. Lastly you can point shoot better with some guns better than others. Therefore choosing the right gun for personal protection is important.
![The Best Handguns for New Shooters [2020 Update]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Divg2ZFYf8E/mqdefault.jpg)
Mr. Baker, this is a top-notch video. As a survivor myself in a self-defense shooting while on duty (I'm now retired), I can tell folks that in such a high-stress, chaotic event you won't be able to "focus" on anything but your attacker, and both eyes WILL be open. This is our natural response to a deadly threat, so you're probably not going to focus on your sights. However, if you are able to raise the pistol to eye level, you can "reference" your front sight, like you said. You're not "looking" at them, but you can see a hazy image of them. The instant that image flashes on the target, pull the trigger. This is called "Flash Sight Picture" shooting, and I can attest to the fact that it works. But again, you are in fact correct in that a large percentage of private citizen self-defense shooting do involve only "point" shooting. Job well done sir, keep the vids coming to us.
Thanks for sharing your experience... that tracks with what I've heard from a lot of other trained shooters who have been involved in shootings.
Oh yeah, caveman eotech but with handgun.
Agree with a lot of points. Mine stared out at about 12-15 yard distance, and my first shot wasn’t so much “point” shooting, as it was instinctive and a reaction to having been shot at. Pretty sure that one hit the ground, short of where it needed to be, as I wanted to see all of the bad guy and my gun was aimed too low. After the past training instructor voices screaming inside my head, I started repeating “front sight, front sight” and for my 2-4 shots, I picked up the sights. The threat was moving laterally at first, as related to me, before turning to run, presumably after being hit, and opening up to about 60 yards, which is where I fired my 4th and last shot. I wasn’t standing still either, and was shuffling backwards in a kind of a J-hook to get behind cover.
My deal was outside of the norm for handgun distances, with just street lights for illumination, and there was a lot of movement in just a few seconds. Had I not picked up the sights, the shots after the first one might have been all misses, and the bad guy might not have been dissuaded from continuing his actions, which also means his accuracy may have improved as well, with negative consequences for me. I’m no expert in any of this, but from my experience and several others, I draw a personal conclusion that practice should include the more common distances, but also training with sights and maybe not from perfect positions, because there’s a chance that whatever is trying to do you harm, won’t cooperate and stand like a paper silhouette at a designated distance.
Yep. Called point or reflex shooting where you basically point the front sight at bad guy. Usually from only a few feet.
I don't remember seeing the sites! 2 good hits at 10 feet. Home invader just out of jail after doing 2 years of a 10 year sentence for almost beating a woman death!
As a range safety officer....I can tell ya people don't use their sights.....they shoot the floors, ceilings, walls, and target hangers.
Is steel commonly allowed or commonly banned between ranges?
Whenever I see footage of a range that isn't e.g. a company's closed off internal testing range I'm always baffled by how seemingly every single one of them has tons of bullet holes in places that absolutely should not have them unless you wanted to hit exactly those spots.
You could set up a range in a coal mine and they'd shoot a plane out of the sky
As someone who goes to an indoor range weekly and sees the holes and the banged up target hangers I can confirm.
I can imagine. I’ve seen holes and lead splashes on steel supports at the ranges I’ve used.
@@fenderjazzface999 😂😂😂😂
"That's how my gun turns into our gun" love that
*Grabs your gun* comrade, what do you think youre doing.
Indeed thanks Chris great work sir!
Yeah me too. It also means that our gun could quite easily become his gun.
This is why you always carry a defensive knife along with your handgun. No distance is too close for a blade.
Further apart than "an arms length" BEGINS pistol range! Closer than that, it is "Our gun".
Attacker defines "when and where". A defender is always .2 to .8 seconds behind the attacker!
"Be polite, But have a plan to kill everyone you meet".
What irks me is the people on either end, who ONLY say that you should practice point shooting or ONLY practice one specific shooting posture with full arm extension and perfect sight picture. It's like fighters that ONLY say you should practice a right hook.
Why would that ever make sense?
@@mikewallace8087 useful different skill to useful different skill. The comparison isn't LITERAL one to one dude, it's the concept of different skills that take practice, and you need to practice all of them to be well rounded. Don't be obtuse.
@@mikewallace8087 hi, I'm Mike Wallace and I can't understand metaphors.
@@mikewallace8087 c'mon,you've never seen "Wanted" where they were curving the bullets? those are "hooks"....Seriously,he's saying that if you only practice one skill,then you are severely limiting yourself......The absolute best response you could give right now would be..."Guy's,it was a JOKE"
@@mikewallace8087 It's an analogy you buffoon.
chris is right when he says if you practice it should mostly be sighted practice. i agree because if you get good at sighted fire, to an instinctual level where it's automatic, your body will learn that index to the highest level of precision. so when you enter a situation that you can't see or use your sights, your body will still have an extremely precise index towards what your attention is focused on. this enables you to focus your entire being on the threat, following it with your eyes and moving your body accordingly, while not thinking at all about your technique, and at a master's level your precision will be such that your index automatically aligns your point of aim with where your eyes are even if you aren't using your sights.
i think when people debate "sighted fire vs point shooting" they overlook this entire point, and that ultimately the two things are more or less the same. the only real difference is that at a low level of competence it FEELS like "sighted fire" because you're still learning that index, and at a high level of competence it simply becomes being able to shoot what you're looking at without thinking about the technique of it all. it all becomes automatic and when it's automatic it's INSTINCTIVE. on the range you're focusing on your sights, in a fight your eyes are locked to what's trying to kill you, you train technique so that your body automatically falls into lockstep so that your mind and eyes can focus on the thing trying to kill you with utmost confidence that your body will be pointing your gun at exactly the point your eyes are locked on.
There's a lot to be said for muscle memory. Practice folks. Practice.
yeah, in some dangerous situation and suddenly you have to use your reflex, there is basically no time for aimming and it will be easier, faster to aim if you are used to it am I right?
Dry fire works too!
@Xph Aku makes sense, thanks
True. Focus practice on developing muscle memory that puts aligned sights on target upon full extension. Dry fire is all that is needed to develop this ability.
@what's up Please. Stir shit somewhere else.
"Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight." - Col. Jeff Cooper
I love how you adress any counter arguments you're likely to hear in every video, and you never just dismiss others experiences. Incredibly in depth, analytical, unbiased, professional advice.
This experimenting with distance vs aiming technique is fundamental gun study. This series is valuable info. Keep it up.
The 20 yards question reminds me of the tragedy that took place in a church a few years ago. A man started shooting guests, including a volunteer guard who was too slow on his draw, when another volunteer guard took one well aimed shot from at least 20 yards and took down the active shooter. He was an older fellow who had many years of practice on his resume and used those sights in a crowded room full of chaos to his advantage.
If you are present at a “mass shooting” in a public place, you may have an opportunity to put shots on the bad guy from cover at a distance. Your defensive handgun skills should cover the distance from 1 yard to 25 or more yards. At longer distances you might have the opportunity to use cover and take your time shooting. If you do not have cover, running like heck to get to cover is a better option than trying to make a long shot from out in the open.
All shooting scenarios are “rare” in our country, You may not have to change a flat tire very often, but if you are going to drive a car, it is a skill you should have.
Well said!
What an excellent comment. Whenever I had a student who began spouting made up statistics about how "all defensive shootings are short range", usually in an effort to justify a lack of training or practice, or carrying a tiny gun that was only useful at short range, I'd ask them to go to a Walmart and pace off a retail store aisle.
I'd then tell them that if they had not learned to shoot well at 25 yards, or insisted on carrying a tiny gun that could not be shot well at that distance, their best option in an active shooter event was to run and hide like everyone else, and hope to get off a close range shot when the shooter came to execute them. I then told them to pray that the shooter was as unskilled and poorly armed as they were. This normally made the point rather clearly.
When I first started in law enforcement in the late 70's, 40% of our qualification course was shot at 50 yards and included weak hand shooting at that range. Even today I do some practice at that range, not because I think I'm going to get into a 50 yard fight, but rather to make sure I can handle a 25 yard confrontation. I also make it a point to carry a sidearm that can be shot well at that range. It really isn't that difficult.
Pretty interesting video.
Being french, most of us shooters don't own handguns for defense but for sport, officially at least. The gun culture here is therefore centered around accuracy, and even those who train for sd/hd pretty much always go for slow, accurate shooting. Don't get me wrong, it's good to do that, but not if you _only_ do that.
Pointshooting encourages you to shoot fast, makes you worry less about the muzzle flip and allows "shy" shooters to fire quick followed up shots that they'd only do with 22lr pistols (if ever). Practicing that way at short ranges makes people aware of their capacity to use a pistol in x y caliber in a real situation. Some 45acp slow shooters might see they're all over the place when trying to fire their gun quickly. Others might realize that with their current level, they'd better switch to 32acp/9mm short rather than shoot a polymer 9mm they can barely handle.
It's also the occasion to check your ability to shoot one handed- chances are, you won't be able to have your optimized two handed shooting position in a real shooting.
All this made me personnally a bit more humble and pushed me to switch to smaller caliber pistols that i shoot way faster and more accurately when pointshooting. Smaller holes, but more of 'em in better places. I hope this can help anyone.
Oui oui, tres bien !!!
It's good that you mentioned shooting one handed. I would add that it's a good idea to practice shooting only strong hand and only weak hand in case one of your arms or hands is wounded, you can still defend. I personally know of two soldiers, one got nicked by a bullet on the upper arm and the other was nicked by a bullet on the wrist. Both wounds only required a band-aid, but in each case, the soldier lost total use of that arm for a couple of hours. Their arms simply went dead like when your legs go to sleep and fall on your face. A band-aid and a couple of hours later, everything was working again. No Purple Heart, just a Band-aid.
All of your observations are excellent-merci, monsieur!
I saw Eric Grauffel shoot a stage about fifteen years ago. He was like a machine. Google him.
Merci , Irs
The use of an airsoft for point shooting training is a valuable starter skill and for skills retention training. Can be done in any home or yard setting but still observe muzzle safety. Thanks for the great videos, I went out and practiced with my 9 yesterday, it was indeed valuable and rewarding.
"Point shooting", or whatever you call it, is simply muscle memory acquired through thousands of iterations. The person who puts in the work gets the hits. Done.
100%
Absolutely correct
Not really.
exactly. the whole point of training is to get your muscle memory to a point that it indexes your body structure to be able to point a gun, reliably and stably, at whatever your eyes are locked on to. this enables extreme speed and precision, and it's the same thing pro gamers in first person shooters do.
you train grip, footing, and sighted fire, so that the muscle memory becomes so dialed in that once you reach mastery, you can now automatically index your body to where ever your eyes are focused with extreme speed and precision. your sights will be aligned automatically because of muscle memory, you won't need to visually confirm sight picture, because there is no time to do so, and no need because you KNOW your body is indexing the gun exactly to the point that your eyes are focused, so you can focus entirely on the threat and not making sure your sight picture is perfect.
you train sight picture so that when you call on your muscle memory, the muscle memory you have learned is one that ALWAYS has the sights perfectly aligned, and at that level you don't need to confirm it by looking down them, you just assume your drilled shooting posture and focus your entire being on the threat and rounds will go where your eyes are centered.
11:00 nailed it...
Thats why I train draw and pointing with eyes closed until I open my eyes and have a acceptable sight picture.
Love the “paper planes” reference at the end, well done sir!
Great video. 2 points:
I think a draw from concealment under stress or while moving would have favored point shooting more, especially at close ranges. With an ideal grip at low ready, it doesn't take any extra effort to acquire the sights.
But in a situation where your draw might not be ideal and you are acquiring a sight picture with the gun canted or twisted, or you are running so that the sights are bouncing; finding your sights might require significantly more time. Point shooting can gain an advantage in these scenarios in my opinion.
Second point: serendipitously, Jerry Miculek just did a point shooting video on his channel. His was closer to the old-school hip-fire technique. As you mentioned, it can be very fast and relatively accurate, which he demonstrated. I highly recommend that people go watch that video.
Point shooting does require practice to master. I've found that with practice I can get a hit on a 3 inch ring at 3 yards from concealment in about 1.2 s. That addresses a large percentage (supposedly) of self defense encounters.
Impressive how good and detailed are your videos. Great as always.
Glad you like them!
@@LuckyGunner Yes, you seem adamant about covering all the contingencies in an infinite universe.
@@robertm4777 😊😊
Chris, before I retired, I owned a private training school in addition to my law enforcement duties. I trained about 30,000 private citizens, mostly beginners, in the defensive use of handguns. This was in the pre-RUclips era, and back then training doctrine had to be developed from scratch. Pretty much what we had were training materials based on Bullseye and PPC shooting, and these weren't all that helpful.
I respect how you approach shooting problems and your integrity in reporting your results to all of us. At the end of this video I was smiling, because the conclusions you reached were the same ones I came to more than 30 years ago. What I told my students, in an effort to make things easier for them to remember, was that from 0-10 feet, they could fire without needing to see their sights, so long as they exercised good trigger control, and brought the gun to as close an eye level point as they could. We only did this exercise after the students had worked on their sighted fire, and then they got surprisingly good results with "point fire". We then did an exercise that I called "retention fire" where the gun was indexed to the pectoral muscle for extreme close quarters shooting. We showed the students that these shots would be low by the same distance between the pectoral muscle and the eye line, but that was okay and made it less likely they would be disarmed.
We then went to distances between 10 feet and 10 yards, and showed them that at these ranges, a "flash sight picture" that merely superimposed the front sight on the area to be hit would work well. Again, trigger control was stressed. Then we moved to shots beyond 10 yards, where I advocated a "hard sight picture" with the classic alignment of front and rear sight. I freely admitted that my 10 feet, 10 yards, and over 10 yards were only guidelines, and that more athletic people with better hand-eye coordination could probably stretch these distances a bit with a handgun that really fit well, provided they knew how to manage a trigger. Back at the time I took a lot of grief from instructors who either felt that "every shot should be a sighted shot", and those who felt that sights on a defensive handgun were irrelevant.
My last admonishment to each class was if given a choice between practicing sighted fire or unsighted fire, they should spend the most time using sights. I told them that if they did this, when they encountered a situation where they could not see their sights, they would be fine, but that the reverse (practicing mostly unsighted fire) was not true. Over the years I had many of these students back to my range for defense shooting drills and I was pleased to see that most of them who did only dry fire exercises at home (heavily emphasized in our classes) could still hit well with their pistols. I was happy to see in this video that a modern day expert like yourself has come to largely the same conclusions.
Almost everything you discussed never entered my mind. I guess I’m never too old to learn.
Being willing to learn is a youth all its own. Too many middle-age people refuse to learn anything new. 👍
"My gun, becomes our gun"
*Stalin cries tears of pride*
It goes without saying that any shooting, whether aimed or instinctive, should be practiced. When shooting at a range where they allowed it, I practiced point shooting out to around 4 yards and it is a skill that can be rapidly developed with consistent hits to the "A" zone. Under stress, your eyes will do what they want - and at close range, they are more likely to focus on the threat. Point shooting is absolutely a good skill to develop.
There's a lot of options for this kind of content on this platform these days. I must say I greatly appreciated your thorough, objective, and scientific approach to the consideration of these topics, sir! Well done! I eagerly look forward to each one of your videos. Keep up the great work! 💪🏾
You are exactly on "point" about practicing sighted fire and how that relates to point shooting. I put this to the test many times in our shooting league, good fundamentals learned through sighted fire lead to good point shooting ability.
One thing that I don’t see people train much is moving and shooting, also shooting while moving. Most indoor ranges suck for this, so you may need to find another method or place to do this. Airsoft with a training partner is great for this.
The last thing you want to do is stand still in front of an armed threat and try to out draw them. The reason is because actions are faster than reactions. So the idea is to shift yourself from the initial reactor (of a perceived threat) to the threat becoming the reactor (to you moving while counter attacking). Getting off axis also makes you harder to shoot/stab/attack etc. This is meant to buy you time to react and defend with more chance of success. You’ll see this with boxers and MMA all the time (until they get tired, which is why endurance is key to their success).
I’m convinced that people that give thumbs down just go and thumbs down every single video out there. Great video!
Anti gun people
Gatcha!
@@propdoctor21564 unlikely. You'd have to have been on a gun history and liked it to even get a recommendation.
that's actually true, I have friends who's wife does just that. she says she just likes to try and balance the numbers, content of the video doesn't matter.
@@UncleVoodoo Surprised to see you here Uncle! Looked at a bunch of your Himalayan videos when I was considering buying one.
I’ve done multiple days of force on force training before and after taking a multi day course on reflexive shooting using the teachings of people like Bob Taubert. In the force on force there were absolutely times I needed to see my sights because without them I kept missing. Besides the legal implications of those missed shots, missing those shots gave my opponent more time to land a fatal shot on myself.
In the reflexive shooting course the instructors ended the second and final day by having us do a walk back drill starting at contact distance. At 7 yd even after two days of nonstop reflexive shooting (we removed or covered our pistol sights) most of the class agreed we were at a point where the accuracy gained by using our sights made up for the additional time taken to fully acquire the sights. At 10 yd everyone wanted to be using their sights. The final lesson was that we were not to walk away from the course thinking sights weren’t needed or important. The point of the course was there are times when a practiced index with the pistol was an acceptable form of sight picture, but that’s not true at all times.
Speed is fine, accuracy is final.
"You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight." Pat Mac
First time I read that was in Bill Jordan's book, "No second place winner."
Very true, but it is important for people to recognize when they are overconfirming their sight picture as well.
Accuracy without enough speed is useless.
@@musicman1eanda At close range, I use "point shooting" or "instinctive sighting". At longer range the sights are used. "Close range" and "long range" are subjective and vary from shooter to shooter. For me, I can point and hit a 6inch diameter steel circle out to 7yards. You just have to practice enough to know your abilities.
My complements to whoever spent the time editing the last few seconds of this video. Actually made me laugh out loud. I really enjoy this channel. Keep up the good work.
Since most gun fights are 7 yards are closer and on average last less than 5 seconds, the front sight, sight picture and good trigger manipulation are more important than sight alignment.
Mr.Baker is a constant of reasonable, common sense.
Other "professionals" always insist their methods are best.
I am personally tired of hearing my edc should be full size 9mm/40, with 3 spare magazines.
The point shoot is most beneficial on a one handed draw, from holster, at ranges and time limits not possible for sighted fire. Lock the firing hand elbow against upper hip, level the forearm, and fire until room to aim is available. Very difficult to see draw or disarm due to high cross guard of other arm and blading.
Mr. Baker, I like how you tell both said of the story, and by doing that you tend to keep both the pros and the cons at bay.
Good info. I was always taught (four seperate academies) that at close range, 5 yards or so, just push your front sight to center of mass and pull the trigger and in real close quarters to keep the gun in tight at your hip (gunfighter style) for weapons retention reasons and instinct shoot. Anything further than 5 yards or so use both sights if time permits because you are liable for where every bullet lands. Don't shoot if your backstop is not clear unless lives will be lost if you don't shoot. Not that you will have time for all of that thinking, which is why practicing each style at the appropriate range is crucial so you just do it naturally. Some academies teach front sight only, period. But that is no good at longer distances. Maybe that is why a lot of cops are bad shots.
You already said what I want to comment.
a. Side stomach, 1 hand. Distance : real close
b. Cowboy style. Distance : +- 1 m - 3 m.
c. Eye sight, 2 hands. Distance : further.
Disadvantage.
a. back protruding elbow. Can't do it when back against wall
b. miss. Required practice & talent, for longer range
c. takes time. Need to Start draw . . early, required experience & advance situational awareness.
That is why the dot life is the future, and the future is now haha.
@@musicman1eanda Nothing wrong with a dot, if you have the time and physical space to use them. It certainly makes you a much better shot at distances over five yards.
Part of me wants to say the sights are useless because in a defensive gun fight you're just not going to have time to get a good sight picture. But then I got an opportunity to run through a live fire exercise in a shoot house armed with a rifle and I missed like three shots on a man sized target that was within 7 yards distance because I hip fired at it. I felt like I couldn't miss, but I did, repeatedly.
Practice both point shooting, and sight shooting.
With all the practice I do and have done, I find my sights end up where they are supposed to be whether I’m looking for them or not
Hey Chris! Great video as always. When I was a LEO, part of our firearms qual required basically shooting from the hip from a holster at 2ft. Obviously sights weren’t used! Your shot placement was solid. Thoracic V. Deadly.
Exactly!!!!! We practiced so close we could reach out with our left hand and touch the side of the target before we shot. Super close!!! Because that’s how close most officers are to the bad guy in the “fatal funnel” when at the window of the offenders car. Nowhere to go and he has the drop on you.
I just hated that I couldn't give you more Thumbs Ups for this Video. Summarising and presenting a rationale argument for a topic spanning 100's of years in 12.28minutes. Well done !
Despite being British I've been shooting air rifles, shotguns, air pistols, recurve bows, compound bows and crossbows since I was about 12 and I honestly never use the sights and I'm pretty accurate. I just point/instinctive shoot and I've gotten good at it over the years. I think in self defence most people will point shoot, but not all.
I agree with you, I shoot my bow at 58 ( years old, not meters), just like I always shoot a slingshot since my childhood. It works pretty well for me. Cheers!
@@herberar If it works then that's all that matters isn't it, thanks for your comment Bernardo.
Well done, this is fantastic work. My own experience has also been that learning to do sighted fire in a hurry has made me very good at point shooting.
Use enough sight for what you need to do.
Great, now I have that song stuck in my head (video ending)...
Not sorry :)
Great point about the false dichotomy. I like to train for an "acceptable" sight picture. What exactly that looks like depends on distance, target size, urgency, etc.
We run a lot of drills with varying target sizes and distances to be sure we drill that difference into our brains.
Love this channel!
I've taught a number of people to use a finger indexed on the slide to "point" the gun at the target and then get a sight picture. I found it helped them get on target faster and kept their finger off the trigger.
Well I got this late even though I’m subscribed. There it is Chris, practice. Practice sighted fire at distance and that will help you with unsighted fire close in. You can get good at point shooting until you get good at sighted fire. You can’t get good at point shooting until your draw is where it needs to be and you can only get there with sighted fire. It’s still all about the draw. Practice your draw. Practice your draw. Your body will do as you trained it to do under stress, You will not have much time as any to think. Your body will do as you train it to do. The one place where we differ Chris is that I don’t fully extend until right around 15 yards and better. I also don’t raise the gun to the level of my eyes to use the sights and less I intend on using the sights. I literally shoot from a centered retention position (?); not above the chest and half way extended. Anyway, good job. It’s whatever really works for you. I don’t need the optics, I rarely use the sights and I get the same kind of hits from 7 to 15.
Adding context and defining terminology is a superpower for RUclips creators. Great job making a rational and well articulated video on the subject.
Sage Dynamics has an interesting video on this concept where the gets a near perfect score on the FBI qualification using a handgun that has no sights.
No doubt that's a little bit funny and Aaron is a good shot. At the same time, even a handgun that nominally has no sights doesn't completely lack the ability to mechanically Amite, even if you are just lining up different colored points on the slide. It's not going to work quite as well as an actual set of sight but you are still putting in more mechanical effort than "point shooting" so to speak.
If anything, I'm not a neurologist so take this with a grain of salt, perhaps that experiment proves that while aming your gun intentionally is important, a set of sights is only part of that - a big part of it, but not the only way.
(e.g. Colonial era muskets didn't have conventional sights but, despite Hollywood convention, people did aim them to a degree)
Most defensive handgun use will be well under 5 yards, and the majority 3 yards or less. So "point shooting" works well for most defensive work. You also gain the benefit of keeping both eyes open and having batter awareness. If the assailant is more than 5 yards away you have to consider that taking cover or retreating might be a better tactic than shooting anyway (unless he's charging you). This is a good video and confirms most of what I have trained for.
It all boils down to I can't walk around everywhere with my AR slung around me.
I genuinely dream of a society where open rifle carry is normal again. It'll never be as convenient as a handgun, but that isn't the point.
besides, if everyone open carried rifles, you'd instantly have way more friends because everyone would talk to each other about their set-ups
@@thefamilybrit so true lol.
I bet you guys are great at parties. 🙄
I always walk around with nails and a hammer, just in case I come across some wild boards I need to build into a house.
I've not been in a SD shooting with a human but I was charged by a wild boar 4 years ago. I always have a 10mm Glock on me while hiking. First of I can say that everything goes extremely fast. Crackling bushes, big brown beast of a pig charging, brain realises and snaps to training, draw gun point the gun and shoot. I did not get hurt. I didn't actively look at my sights like when you shoot a handgun for the first time but I picked them up and somewhat alined them with the pig. Great video guys! Some of the best on RUclips
I swapped my grips out for a pair of CTC laser...perfect when you don’t have the luxury of time to line up your sights. The bad guy may question your aim but rarely the red dot on his chest.
BUT one needs absolute TRIGGER only to the rear control.
Have you trained with it? Like the laser?
Good stuff. One thing to note, we can’t draw from holster in 90% of ranges. Place your gun at the table to “simulate” not being at the ready or holstered. Also try to incorporate simulated malfunctions. Put in one bullet, or a snap cap, and so on. Happy shooting!
The point at about the 11:00 mark about "getting fast with sights basically makes you a point-shooting master"... Yes. 100%.
I've shot and carried one pistol for the last 6 years. Just in the last 12 months, I've put about 2,000 rounds through it. I can close my eyes and press the gun out, and if the sights aren't lined up, they'd damn close.
Good video and good information. As a retired police officer, I’ve always practice point shooting. When we qualify, we first start at 3 yards, the first two exercises are drawing from the holster and hip shooting two rounds at the target.
*clicks video*
*skips to very end to see the last thing Chris says*
*clicks like*
*goes back to the beginning to watch full video*
Funny enough, I was having a conversation on this topic with one of my good friends yesterday. Thanks for another great video, Chris!
Interesting video. It made me be even happier that my Sig P365 has the Sig trigger guard laser that comes on as soon as I grip the weapon. Unless I use poor trigger management, at close to medium distances, I'll be hitting at precisely what I aim at without using the sights, or even without fully raising the pistol.
🤣 🤣 🤣
Except you don’t actually see the dot of the laser as quick as you think which a timer would prove. Looking over the top of the slide is still quickest in tight. The lasers are crap in bright light against dark clothing. Slows you way down for no reason as you don’t even need them. They are an idea that sounds better than it is in practice under realistic conditions. A red dot sight is even quicker than a laser.
@@graywind4326 Since a red dot doesn't work well with my pocket carried P365 (which is packing 14+1 with a MagGuts +2 extender kit)--although I've got RMR's on each of my recently acquired Masada, Canik TP9SFX and Springfield Armory XDM Elite (my many other older pistols aren't optics ready), together with a Olight Baldr Mini light/laser combo--I find the laser on my P365 absolutely perfect for me at night at almost any self defense distance, and during the day at distances of up to at least 10 yards. As I draw the P365 from my pocket holster, immediately upon leveling the weapon, that dot is only an inch or two off from where I need it to be, at a distance of 50 feet (I practice this often), without even thinking about it, and in a fraction of a second it's dead on target (pun intended). Like so many things in life, different people have different experiences, different training, different skill levels, and different likes and dislikes. That you hate lasers or find them not useful for your needs is perfectly fine with me. On the other hand, I have a laser on EVERY pistol in my rather extensive arsenal, and two (red and green bore height, but on opposite sides of the barrel), on every long gun I own (and I own a whole bunch) as well--except two. One is a 22lr from the '60s (which has nothing to mount anything on), and my Browning A-5 12 ga. semi-auto, which because of a different setup has both lasers on the same side, and not barrel height, since it too was made without rails or mounting capability and now sports a 'saddle' for these. So, because of extensive use and experience over many years with lasers, I have a totally different experience and perspective from you. Your disfavoring of lasers reminds me of way back when red dots first came out, and all of the "experts" were looking down their noses at anyone lame enough to suggest that a red dot was an important addition to their weapon. They all demanded that everyone master "the irons', and anyone who thought otherwise wasn't worthy of carrying a firearm. I often laugh to myself when I now see so many (practically all, in fact) of these "experts" who are now sporting (if not actually extolling) red dots (and occasionally a laser). The only constant in life is change. Perhaps one day, so will your opinion of lasers. Not that I actually give a rat's patoot.
@@richardefriend You must have given "a rat's patoot" because you wrote a book in reply. :_)
@@gb93669 I was referring simply to not caring about whether or not you changed how you thought about lasers. I am, however, quite enthusiastic about my own use of lasers, and their hopeful adoption by large segments of the firearms community (particularly the non-luddite types among that community). Reminds me of a famous quote: "“People who appear to be resisting change may simply be the victim of bad habits. Habit, like gravity, never takes a day off.”".
Finally another upload, I love watching your videos because they're packed with a ton of knowledge.
Amazing info, the myth of "beyond a few feet isn't justifiable" is so false, if you are in a deadly situation no one will look the other way if you put someone down at 25 yards who is shooting at you or someone.
Exactly.
"How far can one justify self defence?" Is answered by asking "How far can I be attacked?"
100 yards against a knife? Gonna say no.
100 yards with a firearm? If he's in range, so am I.
@@thesmallestminorityisthein4045 yes, just like he said, I'd you are taking incoming fire from 20 30 yards out then you are well within your rights to engage (accurately and safely) that's the caveat, you have to make sure your shots are safely made.
@@danielschmidt7153 Yeah. I have this feeling not enough people are considering the shots beeing safe in regards to the surroundings of the target in an emergency, when generally discussing this.
In a large amount of the area where people live it gets a bit complicated to shoot in any direction (that's because more people are where more people are. Put a bit jokingly.)
I'm sure plenty are thinking of that. But you don't need many not to be for it to be less then great.
Anyways. That wasn't really the point of this conversation. Pardon me.
@@Sir.Craze- one of the biggest things I taught for law enforcement handgun training was always always always sweep your surroundings, just because bad guy is shooting you from 20 yards away doesn't mean you'll be able to, people and objects always play a role in a gunfight, especially in enclosed areas.
Depends on your state. In MD you have a “Duty to Retreat”
Again another rational look at the subject. Partaking in some formal training is always beneficial, regardless of which training facility you attend. Personally, I went to Front Sight, which I found to be pretty decent "training for the masses" and my shooting certainly improved by the end of 4 days, plus it was a lot of fun.
We did a similar drill with the sights taped up in a Langdon class awhile back, I think we did the drill at ten yards. It did reinforce my belief that trigger control is vastly more important than sight alignment in pistol shooting. Mr. Langdon was very adamant that he wasn't teaching "point shooting" but more a trust in solid fundamentals in the event your sights become occluded in any particular situation.
I trust Ernie, I need another class with him.
Great video. Here's a point about the idea that since some survivors have zero memory of seeing their sights, then they must have simply not used them and instead used point shooting. Not remembering something does not mean that it simply didn't happen. I have fortunately never been in a citizen involved shooting, but I am a lifelong hunter. I can't say that I specifically remember the sight picture on the vast majority of shots taken. In fact, when the adrenaline is pumping, I don't remember the recoil from most shots taken or even the sound of the rifle or shotgun firing, even with my .35 Whelen. Not specifically remembering the recoil or muzzle blast in no way means that those things disappeared.
Some guy named JOE said shoot your double barrel 2 times in the air !!!
Great overall view again. One thing that I do is practice both strong hand, off hand and both hands. Makes a huge difference on sight use and point shooting. You never know when you may be injured in your primary hand and need to make that left meat hook do something useful besides steady your right. ;)
Well done! If we “score” a hit on an ear while practicing, we need to stop backing up and move forward. An ear hit is a dead bystander.
Every time you make these practical defense discussion videos I'm always impressed. Very informative, you have a humble attitude, and it feels like you're taking in a wide variety of sources to discuss the topic. Really enjoy these and I learn a lot.
where's the one-handed shooting? at close range, that likely to be how you'd be shooting
6:25-7:20
Of course I agree that way too much attention is given to stance. This part of shooting has changed a number of times since the 1920s. I think a person should practice one handed with both hands and be able to shoot from any position. I like the old training videos of guys with one hand in their pocket, shooting one handed.
Yes sights are useful, maybe not in the sense we think. Dry firing endless times to get muscle memory, we use our sights to make sure we are on target when we push the gun out. Part of that dry firing is to eventually build your muscle memory to the point you can have your eyes closed as you push the gun out, then open your eyes to see if you were on target just from the muscle memory itself. This is so in case you have to defend yourself in the dark, you'll know that the gun is in the right position instinctively. But it is also for when you are stressed, your muscle memory takes over and will put the gun on target even without looking at the sights.
Fun to see the PX4 out in the wild
Linux and guns are quite cool
You are the most logical, precise and eloquent guntuber on my feed. Excellent stuff as always
Step one: Find the end that goes bang, and point that at the bad guy.
Totally delighted to have a point shoot discussion. Too much talk about "sights". I have had two close range "encounters" and never had to pull the trigger. What I don't hear mentioned or missed was "tunnel vision". I get it bad when threatened... my vision shrinks to a maybe 8" in circle at 10ft. One attacker that I let way to close caused my last thought to be "oh god this is going to be point blank" and I was thinking an up angle under rib chest shot. Attacker finally figured out I had a .357 magnum and very wisely reversed direction. Other fellow kept a few feet from me. My 357 was hidden under a magazine I was reading. As my tunnel vision was getting bad he also figured out what was under the magazine and said, "you have a gun"... end of encounter instantly. Knowing me I won't be able to use sights and I practice point shooting... it takes lots of practice! Amazing how good you can get pointing when instinct kicks in. IMHO "surprise" is an essential element to a good defense. Keeping the gun hidden has given me "time" to assess the threat and prepare a fight ending response. Glad I did not have to kill someone but that does not mean I wouldn't if they make me. I have done some hunting with the 357 and it is a very deadly little pill so I have no issues with letting someone get close... it ain't your grandma's 9.
Did he make a MIA PaperPlanes reference? Damn I wonder if anyone else caught that.
yep! Not the place I was expecting to see that reference, lulz
@@WillowGardener would pay money to watch Chris Baker sing karaoke
Here Here 👍
I will agree with your findings on this vid, I learned to point shoot back in the early 70's, an you are correct, 7 yds is what I was taught was the reasonable distance for hits on target, anything more an you were to far outside the cone of fire, think like a machine gun. Never thought about old school sites vs new school sites, an yes newer site are alot better in my book. I will buy ammo when you get in what I need, I keep checking your site, thx for the vid.
I've never had to shoot someone, but in IDPA I used my sights quite often. At arm's length, no. Shooting from retention, no.
Moving under stress 2 eyes open focusing on the moving agressor at less than 15 yards one hand firing the fastest possible with no finger discipline is why i choosed a gun with a great natural point of aim, low recoil calibre and... no red dot for now. Thanks for those great video.
Nowadays the sight industry are more concerned in the "pimp my gun" perspective. More money and merchandise. For me... Stock iron sights😍 all the way.
Very concise and goes over many close range high stress situations, don’t ever forget safety, what is behind ur target!
Aaah people are walking around with their sights covered up. That explains a lot of what I've seen. Lol get out to the range guys! Even if its your yard with an airsoft. Get that presentation sharp 🤠
I just love it the way you said "My gun became our gun" I will use that.
Short answer: no, pistol sights are not required in a gunfight.
Unless you have to make a precise hit into the T-Box.
as a person on a journy in being a responsible, trained and competent gun owner, I have found many of your videos incredibly informative. I especially appreciate the debunking of myths with straight forward facts and experimentation. truly, thank you.
Heck yeah I was raised on iron sights.
I learned how to drive on a Colomn shift, but those days are long gone also. "One Focal Plane is better then Three " and not too many people out there are using AR Iron Sights, there's a Reason to that. Threat Focus and your good to go.
@@Sanctified_Leather I thought we was talking about pistols but regardless everybody should know how to train and shoot with iron sights never know when your optics could bite the dust...just sayin.
@@raynichol2477 agree with you, but my RMR's won't bite the Dust, and I was first Trained along time ago on Irons I'm good to go 👍 but I do get your point
@@raynichol2477 You should how to use irons, but dots are incredibly reliable nowadays. Optics like the RMR have very low failure rates.
@@musicman1eanda i started shooting when I was 11 or 12 and I'm 61 now so I've got a decent collection of firearms and optics but still wouldn't hesitate to grab one without anything on it.
Your definition for point shooting is pretty spot on.
Outstanding video! It is the best I’ve seen on this very important subject for civilian self-defense.
This video is pure gold , I encourage anyone who wants to practice defensive shooting to test him/her self on the FBI Q Pistol test , it only takes 50 rounds. Please consider beforehand do some dry fire.
These last two videos on this discussion were really good. I agree with your statements towards the end. If you consistently practice drawing your gun and finding the sights then most of the time when you draw and push out your sights are already aligned. A dry fire practice I do is draw from concealment and present with my eyes shut and then open them and see how aligned my sights are. A good majority of the time they are aligned to the point that even if I wasn’t looking at them at all and “point shooting” I would be getting good hits.
Chris, I’m late to this party, but, I’ve watched both videos in this 2 part series now and found them very well thought out and immensely informative. I like facts, not guesswork, and found Tom Givens research compared to historical data extremely enlightening.
I train, and train with, a church security team. We work intensively inside 10 yards; now, the question is how best to incorporate these facts into active training…
Great addition to your video collection!
Thanks Chris
Very interesting video. I've never tried point and shoot but I will now.
You should spend most of your time practicing point shooting.
It's the most likely skill you will have to use in a defense situation.
I very much appreciate the way Mr. Baker speaks in complete sentences, and does lard his discourse up with that most dumb-sounding of all non-words, "UH." It is a pleasure to listen to him speak !
This is almost a must-see video for someone who is getting serious about personal protection. Excellent information well presented.
Chris, this may be your best video ever and that's a hard thing to say because you make so many good videos. I always practice a panicked, adrenaline filled draw from concealment at a 10 inch steel target, bringing the gun up to eye level. I always practice "moving off the X" and shooting as well. I don't look for my front sight because I believe that in a realistic panic situation my attention would be focused on the target and background. I have found that there I am more accurate if I hold the gun at about a 45 degree angle. There is less trigger deflection because it is more natural. When you point your finger at something, look at the angle of your hand. Most people will have their hand canted at about 45 degrees. I encourage people to try this and see how it works for you. I have also seen police body cam footage of cops canting their gun in the same manner.
Very good information here. As a cop and former police firearms instructor, this is essentially how we train. Our qualification course involves firing at the 1.5 and 3 yard line, and shooting without sights. The 1.5 is simply coming out of the holster and firing. 3 is draw & shoot. All timed.
Then the 5, 7, 15 & 25 yard line all requires sights. All timed.
it is possible to train with your firearm to the point of effectively knowing where the barrel is pointing in relation to your body. This comes down to using one particular firearm, getting to know its specific behavior and ballistics, and shooting with it enough to have it effectively become an "extension of your body". This won't guarantee hits, and each variable affects how well it works in reality to varying degrees with various people, and there are other factors as well, such as consistent grip. Still generally best for shorter ranges. Think of it like being able to point the barrel at your target as effectively and easily as pointing your finger at them.
Definitely, and gives the argument for training with one firearm only, not a carry “rotation”
I love the thumbnail. Laura Ingalls in the time-warp with a 1911
Excellent presentation, well thought out. The observation about sighted practice helping point shooting function is spot on. It enhances other motor skills needed.
Chris you are cracking me up....intro fantastic
Good info
In order to shoot at 3 to 5 yards without sights you must first learn how to shoot out to 10 yards with sights and do that accurately and for a long time in order to build muscle memory. It is muscle memory that gets you to shout without using the sights. Also what aids instinctive shooting is the correct presentation of the gun when using the sights. The gun must be extended in front of your eyes and driven forward to the target at which time the sights will be perfectly aligned, this is the muscle memory you must build up. Dry Fire Practice works best. First learn how to use the sights adiqualy. Point shooting comes after a lot of practice. Lastly you can point shoot better with some guns better than others. Therefore choosing the right gun for personal protection is important.