I hate HATE how they made hazards toggle a gamemode setting rather than a toggle during the stage selection. It completely disincentivized experimenting within the stagelist due to having to create 2 identical rules with hazards on and off, and I personally think it's a major contributor to the stale stagelist we have today.
This is very well edited and made, very underrated. Also, I have to agree, why is it that competitive players will sometimes complain about the game getting stale when they limit the stages so much, some variety will only make the game more interesting
Say what you will about Brawl's competitive scene and stage list, but no other game has ever let you flame choke someone into the Halberd Laser cannon in bracket.
Smash competitive players are just allergic to fun, I HATE how static and dull the usual stagelist is. People genuinely seem to forget that counterpicking should be giving advantages to one player - thats the point!!! Heaven forbid there be a little variety in what gets played. Shout-out to that one tournament where you could play all sorts of stages and everyone gentlemaned to ps2 for 99% of matches. Fun stuff.
You can’t exactly force them to play the stages if they don’t find them fun to fight on different people have different bullshit tolerances and personally mines really low so I prefer the competitive stage list and wouldn’t thank you for green hill zone or venom Also the stage list can give advantages even simple platform changes can massively impact combo routes and landing positions
@jmurray1110 yeah, I get people not wanting to risk a competitive run to green hill zone or whatever, but when the stagelist is as static and dull as it currently is, it's just extremely boring to both play and watch. It's 99% PS2, smashville doesn't have a moving plat so it's extremely boring and basic, other stages are so big and almost platformless - its just very very boring. I miss seeing moving platforms be an actual stage element that was always a factor, now you have town and city sometimes having the platforms move on and off the side and that's basically it. Play variety is just lesser as a result.
@@matlotl blame Nintendo everyone wished it was more than a toggle but they never bothered to go back and patch it to be better hell they couldn’t even be arse to patch it for a particularly long amount of time
@@jmurray1110 I mean, competitive rulesets could have gone with a hazards on stagelist but people just seemed to be allergic to fun and extremely eager to use the hazards off toggle for "extra competitiveness". Like as soon as the toggle was revealed players were obsessed with the idea of more stages being legal cus they remove the interesting elements of stages - moving platforms included, sadly. Nintendo should absolutely have patched the toggle to work better though.
While Unova was banned because of teleports, there was a legitimate reason for it being banned found it later on. Due to the darkness and occasional flashing from when pokemon appeared in the background, people with epilepsy and some other vision disabilities were effected. Which is a better reason for banning it in favour of another dual plat because we don't have any options for it (cough small battlefield, PS1, PS2).
This reminds me of the pushback on non-standardized maps in Rocket League. I'm honestly with the standardized maps players. there's a reason we have map pools to beguin with. It would be counter productive to allow stages that aren't competitive in a competitive game.
As someone who has actually played wifi tourneys with it legal, I'm gonna disagree with you on Castle Siege for two reasons I'm surprised you didn't bring up: 1. The asymmetrical stage layout inherently gives an advantage to one side based on which port you're playing on, which I think is dumb 2. At the bottom right corner of the stage, there's this wall in the foreground that totally blocks your view of the action. Like you cannot see a thing, it's really weird, and it makes edgeguarding low recoveries a massive pain in the ass. That being said I actually really like Unova as a competitive stage good choice :)
@@Indago no wait hold on that doesnt sound right at all. you always get random spawn points in ultimate. port priority only matters for melee and 64 since it determines where you actually spawn on the stage.
I really appreciate this! I don't wanna put down bigger creators in the smash scene i will say :P, I still have a lot to learn from a lot of them. But ty for the compliment!
I’d love to properly play a tournament where some of these stages are legal! They were super fun to test and I think they’d be even more fun to take seriously :3
Alot of these issues with stage picks could easily be fixed if Nintendo actually respected its competitive players instead of treating them like dirt. Project M has tons of legal stage layouts and designs. Just look at what they did for Green Hill Zone. There would easily be more stage variety if the programmers coded and PUT more stage variety into the game for high level play. It's not the players' fault if the game designers, programmers and owners do not bother to take feedback from their passionate and skilled players.
Project M/Project Plus is GENUINELY my favorite Smash game and this is a very big reason why. Alongside just me loving how they handle some characters in that game :D. it's also been a huge draw to Rivals 2 for me as well!
@@user-be3qc7re9o If it was such a minority, then why INTENTIONALLY design Brawl the way it is? If they were just a small part of the fanbase, then there would be no actual issue keeping the physics from Melee, now would there? Nobody goes back to Brawl and the continually growing Melee scene says otherwise, don't it? Just cuz a game is designed with a casual audience in mind, it doesn't mean that it cannot make improvements to competitive. Look at Yo-Kai Wach. Yo-Kai Watch 2 is chock full of casual content but its competitive PVP format is pretty overcentralized. Then you have Yo-Kai Watch 3. That game has like DOUBLE the amount of casual content that 2 has and has a much better balanced competitive format than 2 so rich in viable teambuild variety. It accomplished that by the devs actually looking at and understanding the competitive format of their own game and making the necessary changes and they did that without compromising casual aspects. Having more stage options is a GOOD thing from a casual perspective anyway cuz it means more content by proxy.
@@user-be3qc7re9o He'll say that then spend the last 10 years adding back Melee-esque mechanics with every game after, huh? False. They knew about it and even posted about it on their official website. Meanwhile you ignored my YKW point.
@@user-be3qc7re9o It is a casual game that has a competitive format. Being the same title is irrelevant. Don't need statements if the game design and improvements speak loud and clear, do you?
When I joined my high school’s Smash E-Sports team, I was shocked how limiting the stage options were. Only 7 stages (state rules) with hazard off. I enjoyed the symmetry making it more streamlined, but I really do not like how much my options were reduced by this decision. It particularly hurts because my main (Kirby) has a good up-throw kill on higher platforms in lower blast-zone ceilings, but I can only ever take advantage of it on the tiny middle Battlefield platform. The way stage banning works also makes the game less fun competitively. A few months later I made my own personalized “competitive” ruleset on my own switch with many more stages (both hazards and no hazards versions because Ultimate doesn’t allow a mix of them), and even just fighting lvl 9 CPUs was a lot more fun. I recently watched a Hungrybox tournament of only Warioware (hazard and no hazards), and even the hazard-less version led to a much more interesting viewing experience, not even mentioning how great the minigame meta was in that stream. I know “there wasn’t a big cash prize on the line” is an excuse many make for adding stages that advantage certain ports or bring elements out of player control, but I think the player’s ability to work around or even utilize stage hazards/asymmetries/slopes to their advantage is far more of a showcase of skill (and more entertaining for viewers!) than a flat plane with 0-3 platforms. Melee things like pulling a clutch Randal or hitting the PS2 glitch are what make it so interesting to watch: the unpredictability because of more player options.
As a visually impaired competitive smash player, I kind of agree with you. Its sometimes hard for me to watch tournaments because of my disability, and even though I'm sort of tired of always watching PS2 be picked so often, out of all of them, it is the easiest one for me to watch when spectating, not so much when playing, I can work with it, but for some reason it's easier for me to just spectate. my GF hosted an online tournament a while back that I participated in and she gave me the option to go with PS1 instead of PS2 because it's easier on my eyes so some more variety would definitely help out my case I guess. Nothing too crazy, just simpler darker background, so I usually tend to go with balloon fight on Omega form and sometimes on battlefield form. I don't like three platform stages that much but I do like small battlefield layout type of stages more, however, that's not an option I have with balloon fight. So that's very much why I was given the option to pick PS1.
That's actually such a sweet story, I'm glad it doesn't get in the way of spectating the stage too often at the very least. And using Balloon fight as an alternative for FD with a more visually clear layout seems really smart!
I still feel like Fountains Of Dreams lags I wish I had an FPS counter to prove this though but when I play Bayonetta which has a lot of particle effects I still feel like the stage lags
I don’t play in tournaments but use a competitive ruleset when playing with friends and commonly include Unova and Yoshi’s Island! I would LOVE to try out Castle Siege and Halberd (my friends WILL yell at me)
"stage problem" as if we can't LITERALLY click a button and remove hazards or even platforms from ANY stage. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 we are CLOWNS for creating rules and then complaining about them.
As a peach player slants are god awful to play on for her. They basically eat all of her ground float inputs and make her combos non existant. I know it's just one character and can be banned but I just wanted to bring it up.
Why can't we pick stages from the rule list and have a hybrid of hazards on/off? For example, smashville: name the ruleset, set hazards on and turn on random stages and toggle on only smashville
nah, I will just play casual 1v1s with half the stages available and final smashes on top of all, I paid 60 bucks for the game for me to just limit the content Ill use.
I know this is completely unrelated to Smash, but, I'm gonna ask cuz' u have a similar art style that I want to do. I like the oval eyes ur character has. But, how do u make bigger eyes on a character like that without lowering the hairline to the point they barely have a forehead like alot of big eye characters seem to do?
Oh! I didn't make the art in the video, I should've put that in the description. But the art is made by @Rosebuddy9842 on twitter/ @robubby.bsky.social on bluesky
big forehead... that's my secret... LOL my style leans into more cartoonish features, such as the larger eyes and forehead, but I also tend to allow the eyes to be seen over parts of the hair if they'd otherwise be obscured!
Why don’t competitive players play any stage? Or play with items? I mean I get having most matches without them, but are you really good at or having fun with smash bros if you play with 70% of the game disabled?
There's a lot of reasons for turning off items, but the main reason is simply just it adds far too much luck into the game and with how strong some items are, when there's competition and money on the line they're just not a good fit. I will say however don't be too harsh. A lot of competitive players (myself included) started out playing casually. Then found out about competition and found it cool, and then got that drive to get better. TLDR: Items too random, competitive players still find the game fun
I hate HATE how they made hazards toggle a gamemode setting rather than a toggle during the stage selection. It completely disincentivized experimenting within the stagelist due to having to create 2 identical rules with hazards on and off, and I personally think it's a major contributor to the stale stagelist we have today.
meet me on distant planet
“Say you host a wifi tournament, or tournaments with your friends”
that felt like a personal callout
LMAO IT WASN'T I PROMISE!!
@ too late, already planning the Rubes Hazards On-vitational 💔
I agree, the Great cave offensive should 100% be mandatory in all competitive smash bouts~
Ok but seriously tho, can we have some more variety?
This is very well edited and made, very underrated. Also, I have to agree, why is it that competitive players will sometimes complain about the game getting stale when they limit the stages so much, some variety will only make the game more interesting
Ultimate should have on and off hazards toggle on stage select lol
If you ask me... If competitive players are REAL professionals, they should be able to handle a few hazards.
"Oh no! Not a slope!"😱
Say what you will about Brawl's competitive scene and stage list, but no other game has ever let you flame choke someone into the Halberd Laser cannon in bracket.
Smash competitive players are just allergic to fun, I HATE how static and dull the usual stagelist is. People genuinely seem to forget that counterpicking should be giving advantages to one player - thats the point!!! Heaven forbid there be a little variety in what gets played.
Shout-out to that one tournament where you could play all sorts of stages and everyone gentlemaned to ps2 for 99% of matches. Fun stuff.
You can’t exactly force them to play the stages if they don’t find them fun to fight on different people have different bullshit tolerances and personally mines really low so I prefer the competitive stage list and wouldn’t thank you for green hill zone or venom
Also the stage list can give advantages even simple platform changes can massively impact combo routes and landing positions
@jmurray1110 yeah, I get people not wanting to risk a competitive run to green hill zone or whatever, but when the stagelist is as static and dull as it currently is, it's just extremely boring to both play and watch. It's 99% PS2, smashville doesn't have a moving plat so it's extremely boring and basic, other stages are so big and almost platformless - its just very very boring. I miss seeing moving platforms be an actual stage element that was always a factor, now you have town and city sometimes having the platforms move on and off the side and that's basically it. Play variety is just lesser as a result.
@@matlotl blame Nintendo everyone wished it was more than a toggle but they never bothered to go back and patch it to be better hell they couldn’t even be arse to patch it for a particularly long amount of time
@@jmurray1110 I mean, competitive rulesets could have gone with a hazards on stagelist but people just seemed to be allergic to fun and extremely eager to use the hazards off toggle for "extra competitiveness". Like as soon as the toggle was revealed players were obsessed with the idea of more stages being legal cus they remove the interesting elements of stages - moving platforms included, sadly. Nintendo should absolutely have patched the toggle to work better though.
While Unova was banned because of teleports, there was a legitimate reason for it being banned found it later on. Due to the darkness and occasional flashing from when pokemon appeared in the background, people with epilepsy and some other vision disabilities were effected. Which is a better reason for banning it in favour of another dual plat because we don't have any options for it (cough small battlefield, PS1, PS2).
Oh I actually hadn't heard of that before! Totally makes sense though in that case
Anti-epileptic counterpick
This reminds me of the pushback on non-standardized maps in Rocket League.
I'm honestly with the standardized maps players. there's a reason we have map pools to beguin with. It would be counter productive to allow stages that aren't competitive in a competitive game.
i loved this video and completely agree!! ultimate’s competitive scene seriously needs some more variety. subbed immediately
the playstation 2
Most popular console of like all time I think idk
As someone who has actually played wifi tourneys with it legal, I'm gonna disagree with you on Castle Siege for two reasons I'm surprised you didn't bring up:
1. The asymmetrical stage layout inherently gives an advantage to one side based on which port you're playing on, which I think is dumb
2. At the bottom right corner of the stage, there's this wall in the foreground that totally blocks your view of the action. Like you cannot see a thing, it's really weird, and it makes edgeguarding low recoveries a massive pain in the ass.
That being said I actually really like Unova as a competitive stage good choice :)
I didn't consider the ports impacting where you spawn :0, good point!
@@Indago no wait hold on that doesnt sound right at all. you always get random spawn points in ultimate. port priority only matters for melee and 64 since it determines where you actually spawn on the stage.
Always love discovering a new smash channel with low subs but better/more entertaining editing than big RUclipsrs
I really appreciate this! I don't wanna put down bigger creators in the smash scene i will say :P, I still have a lot to learn from a lot of them. But ty for the compliment!
I’d love to properly play a tournament where some of these stages are legal! They were super fun to test and I think they’d be even more fun to take seriously :3
Messing around on halberd with incineroar >>>>>>>>>
woah. it's that person from the video!!! Tell us a.... f a c t
Your editing and narration is so good, you absolutely deserve more subscribers
Alot of these issues with stage picks could easily be fixed if Nintendo actually respected its competitive players instead of treating them like dirt. Project M has tons of legal stage layouts and designs. Just look at what they did for Green Hill Zone. There would easily be more stage variety if the programmers coded and PUT more stage variety into the game for high level play. It's not the players' fault if the game designers, programmers and owners do not bother to take feedback from their passionate and skilled players.
Project M/Project Plus is GENUINELY my favorite Smash game and this is a very big reason why. Alongside just me loving how they handle some characters in that game :D. it's also been a huge draw to Rivals 2 for me as well!
@@user-be3qc7re9o If it was such a minority, then why INTENTIONALLY design Brawl the way it is? If they were just a small part of the fanbase, then there would be no actual issue keeping the physics from Melee, now would there? Nobody goes back to Brawl and the continually growing Melee scene says otherwise, don't it? Just cuz a game is designed with a casual audience in mind, it doesn't mean that it cannot make improvements to competitive. Look at Yo-Kai Wach. Yo-Kai Watch 2 is chock full of casual content but its competitive PVP format is pretty overcentralized. Then you have Yo-Kai Watch 3. That game has like DOUBLE the amount of casual content that 2 has and has a much better balanced competitive format than 2 so rich in viable teambuild variety. It accomplished that by the devs actually looking at and understanding the competitive format of their own game and making the necessary changes and they did that without compromising casual aspects. Having more stage options is a GOOD thing from a casual perspective anyway cuz it means more content by proxy.
@@user-be3qc7re9o
He'll say that then spend the last 10 years adding back Melee-esque mechanics with every game after, huh?
False. They knew about it and even posted about it on their official website.
Meanwhile you ignored my YKW point.
@@user-be3qc7re9o So it wasn't a minority if it ended up being a big deal then, huh?
@@user-be3qc7re9o It is a casual game that has a competitive format. Being the same title is irrelevant. Don't need statements if the game design and improvements speak loud and clear, do you?
TOTALLY agree. I'm sick of PS2 being the ONLY stage we see!
Yeah Ultimate has a stage problem: Stage 4 cancer
Switch to HDR, problem solved.
When I joined my high school’s Smash E-Sports team, I was shocked how limiting the stage options were. Only 7 stages (state rules) with hazard off. I enjoyed the symmetry making it more streamlined, but I really do not like how much my options were reduced by this decision. It particularly hurts because my main (Kirby) has a good up-throw kill on higher platforms in lower blast-zone ceilings, but I can only ever take advantage of it on the tiny middle Battlefield platform. The way stage banning works also makes the game less fun competitively.
A few months later I made my own personalized “competitive” ruleset on my own switch with many more stages (both hazards and no hazards versions because Ultimate doesn’t allow a mix of them), and even just fighting lvl 9 CPUs was a lot more fun.
I recently watched a Hungrybox tournament of only Warioware (hazard and no hazards), and even the hazard-less version led to a much more interesting viewing experience, not even mentioning how great the minigame meta was in that stream. I know “there wasn’t a big cash prize on the line” is an excuse many make for adding stages that advantage certain ports or bring elements out of player control, but I think the player’s ability to work around or even utilize stage hazards/asymmetries/slopes to their advantage is far more of a showcase of skill (and more entertaining for viewers!) than a flat plane with 0-3 platforms. Melee things like pulling a clutch Randal or hitting the PS2 glitch are what make it so interesting to watch: the unpredictability because of more player options.
editing on this is great!! hope this blows up!!
TYSM!! These sorta videos are hard to make consistently for me, so I hope they're worth it ^.^, stick around if ya wanna see more :P
Simple. There are a ton of stages that would be legal in basically every other game, why not cycle through 4 sets of stages depending on the season?
It's a crime we have Fountain of Dreams in HD and don't play on it even after it was fixed
As a visually impaired competitive smash player, I kind of agree with you. Its sometimes hard for me to watch tournaments because of my disability, and even though I'm sort of tired of always watching PS2 be picked so often, out of all of them, it is the easiest one for me to watch when spectating, not so much when playing, I can work with it, but for some reason it's easier for me to just spectate. my GF hosted an online tournament a while back that I participated in and she gave me the option to go with PS1 instead of PS2 because it's easier on my eyes so some more variety would definitely help out my case I guess. Nothing too crazy, just simpler darker background, so I usually tend to go with balloon fight on Omega form and sometimes on battlefield form. I don't like three platform stages that much but I do like small battlefield layout type of stages more, however, that's not an option I have with balloon fight. So that's very much why I was given the option to pick PS1.
That's actually such a sweet story, I'm glad it doesn't get in the way of spectating the stage too often at the very least. And using Balloon fight as an alternative for FD with a more visually clear layout seems really smart!
I would love to see a grand finals between two top players on Palutena's temple frfr-
No you wouldn’t sonic ditto counter camping isn’t fun
I still feel like Fountains Of Dreams lags I wish I had an FPS counter to prove this though but when I play Bayonetta which has a lot of particle effects I still feel like the stage lags
How long will it be until competitive players discover custom stages
I don’t play in tournaments but use a competitive ruleset when playing with friends and commonly include Unova and Yoshi’s Island! I would LOVE to try out Castle Siege and Halberd (my friends WILL yell at me)
"stage problem" as if we can't LITERALLY click a button and remove hazards or even platforms from ANY stage. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 we are CLOWNS for creating rules and then complaining about them.
If I ran a tourney I would just ban Pokémon Stadium 2 entirely.
As a peach player slants are god awful to play on for her. They basically eat all of her ground float inputs and make her combos non existant. I know it's just one character and can be banned but I just wanted to bring it up.
I heard TWEWY music at the end, instant sub
ohhhh yknow... only my 2 favorite games of all time nothing special-
@@Indago I agree, it's peak fiction
Why can't we pick stages from the rule list and have a hybrid of hazards on/off? For example, smashville: name the ruleset, set hazards on and turn on random stages and toggle on only smashville
ps2 my beloved
Average DK Main ☝️
cloud: 71%-81%
joker: 65%-77%
roy: 67%-79%
Yeah, more people would be down with this-except there's money involved.
That's why near the end I reccomend wifi tourneys experiment more, a lot less on the line there
Legalize port town aero dive
The problem with hollow bastion has nothing to do with gameplay, it's straight up nauseating for a lot of people
The transformation to dive in the heart would help that right? Considering the background in final stock wouldnt be moving?
It gets turned off in hazards off
@@jmurray1110 ohhhh didn't catch that somehow, my fault :P
nah, I will just play casual 1v1s with half the stages available and final smashes on top of all, I paid 60 bucks for the game for me to just limit the content Ill use.
Meet me on Mario circuit
Legalize Spring Stadium!
I know this is completely unrelated to Smash, but, I'm gonna ask cuz' u have a similar art style that I want to do. I like the oval eyes ur character has. But, how do u make bigger eyes on a character like that without lowering the hairline to the point they barely have a forehead like alot of big eye characters seem to do?
Oh! I didn't make the art in the video, I should've put that in the description. But the art is made by @Rosebuddy9842 on twitter/ @robubby.bsky.social on bluesky
big forehead... that's my secret... LOL
my style leans into more cartoonish features, such as the larger eyes and forehead, but I also tend to allow the eyes to be seen over parts of the hair if they'd otherwise be obscured!
Why don’t competitive players play any stage? Or play with items? I mean I get having most matches without them, but are you really good at or having fun with smash bros if you play with 70% of the game disabled?
There's a lot of reasons for turning off items, but the main reason is simply just it adds far too much luck into the game and with how strong some items are, when there's competition and money on the line they're just not a good fit.
I will say however don't be too harsh. A lot of competitive players (myself included) started out playing casually. Then found out about competition and found it cool, and then got that drive to get better.
TLDR: Items too random, competitive players still find the game fun
hollow bastion is a legal stage
it is! But hazards on *isnt*. Same logic with Smashville and Town
I
bring back warioware lowkey
very funny stage
Not a single mention of yggdrasil??
omg thats meeeeeeeeeeeee hi transgenderstreetlegend
omg miko hiiiiii
holy shit a transgender
Who do you main in smash I use mewtwo
I main Cloud and Joker! And mess around with Pit as well :P, not sure if I call them a main rn
is that persona music i sense?
Mayyyyyyyyyybeeeeeee c: (yes there is :D)
I wish I had pronouns =(