i know im randomly asking but does anybody know a way to get back into an Instagram account..? I somehow lost the password. I would appreciate any assistance you can give me.
Great video!!! Kinda makes me want to replace my warthog system... but what really caught my attention is the difference between VR and flying a screen. After 2.5 years of VR, I don't think I can fly without the depth perception that VR provides.
Can you explain how you do it? I just have the shittiest setup right now and a lot of stuff mapped to an xbox controller, can you fly completely without having to remove the glasses ever?
@@pnksmigge5324 That's the issue with VR, to make it immersive, you have to have some kind of cockpit setup... the more button boxes, the better. Ideally, you would set up a simpit that gives you the functionality for a particular model that you want to fly. Its a challenge, but well worth it!
@@420alphadog appreciate taking t he time to reply! It's all good, we're not in a rush to have everything tomorrow as it's a deep hobby I guess. Good thing 3D printing is another I bet :)
@@pnksmigge5324 It is very easy. Been flying dcs in VR for 4 years. Just get Voice attack. I never have to lift my visor. All wingman commands, pause, start engines, ANYTHING that needs a button you can use your voice. Can't live without it in VR. OH and I paid for it, but it's free now I believe as the community took over the program.
The increase in resistance with deflection gives you better awareness of stick position by feeling the pressure. 12:03 is the reason why the WinWing is the one to go for.
When I was in the Army I was a helicopter mechanic. When I was deployed to the Gulf War 1, I was working on AH-1's. One of our pilots was a firm believer in if you work on it you fly in it. So I got to go out on test flights riding front seat. Long story long, he would let us take the countrols. The thing I noticed more than anything is the Stick doesn't move at all. If you tried to yank it like you would fix wing you would end up upside down on the deck.
Warthog and WinWing are both in stock right now! I ordered the Orion, last night as soon as the countdown ended on their site. What a cluster F. As for the Warthog A10C throttle sticking, I can confirm that their F/A18 stick does not have that issue. It also has a second click for the trigger. It's one smooth sucker. That said, I'll be using that for a VR co-pilot, as soon as the WinWing is delivered.
This is the first time I've seen what you look like Grim Reaper. You look so cool (as expected lol). Love your content. I am so happy I discovered this channel super early in my DCS career!
Not sure that a more than 10 year old premium HOTAS has much chance against a brand new design. Virpil and VKB revolutionised consumer flightsim gear in my view. Would be better to compare to those two. Winwing appear to have been, let's say, very strongly "inspired" by VKB/Virpil in that special way that Chinese companies often are.
@luciodon76 His information (or should I say assumption) is incorrect. Virpil has its factory in Belarus. I dont say they produce everything there though, they probably use some abroad suppliers for various items (for example packaging materials) like everyone else. I'm sure at least the assembly is done there.
Tu mélange tous, c’est thrusmaster qui a révolutionné la simulation de vols!! Les autres n’ont fait que copier, la base AVA de thrusmaster a mis tous le monde d’accord j’ai vite revendu mon Pack Orion 2 pour retourner chez thrusmaster, vous pouvez dire ce que vous voulez la base AVA est au dessus du lot !!
Hi. CAP. Tony from Winwing. Thank you and team for the vote of confidence. And we all enjoy watching you and team fly with our equipment. ( I heard Kelso`s calm voice, haha)
You are so not what I was expecting you to look like. :D I was expecting someone older. And I'm not criticizing what you look like, but my idea in my mind was so very different. :) Thanks for all your contribution to DCS.
Great review Cap... I cant get over how good my WinWing system is, I have the Super Taurus and Libra with the Stick extension and simply love it... I built mine into a home built FA18/c cockpit...Its simply amazing... Im about to get the adapter for the Warthog stick so I can place the Warthog onto the system etc. I dont like the Warthog stick base as its just sooooo heavy to move, then i got "Warthog Stickation" and that was it for me... WinWing all the way M8...
As someone who has been using a thrustmaster for years now I do like the fact that they have brought out a more "traditional" style of hotas system where you dont need to do any fancy things when it comes to mounting stuff to your desk. definatly a more accessible and easy to set up system where you basically just place it down on the table plug it in and enjoy. (this is more a comparison between the Orion vs super libra) if Winwing wanted a direct comparison product then making there own A10 stick and throttle would be good. I feel like its a little bit difficult to compare the throttles together as one is an A10 the other is an F18 so how many buttons one has i think is a little irrelevant as if the real A10 throttle has 12 buttons on it then adding buttons for the sake of adding more buttons then doesnt make it an A10 throttle anymore. comparing the flimsiness of buttons and switches however is something to compare and some of the buttons/hat switches do feel a little loose on my A10 throttle. I think for those people who are moving up from a basic hotas or even just a 3d pro which i used back when i first got into sims then grabbing the newer product might be a better option (Winwing Orion) but in the end it also just comes down to what aircraft you like. would you like an A10c or F18 stick and throttle. My stick is slowly starting to show signs of ware and tare where the cable has opened a little and ive put tape round it. so a new stick is in order for me. With RAZBAM showing off pictures of the F15E which uses a similar stick to the F18c i think i know what stick i might get in future.
i am using the old MS Precision 2 with Force Feedback and needed a hald inch selfmade rubber spacer for the bottom Hand Rest to lift my Hand in a supported all day long position. And the name precision in the name of the stick is real description of the habit of it. I can adjust the stick force in game. I love to know people like you with the same interrests and passion.
What is really interesting about these are the price point right now. Pre-COVID the Warthog set was about half the price it is now, this WINWING set is really bringing you more bang for a cheaper price. Making it very tempting to me.
That's a very interesting observation. Not quite a doubling but from sub €400 to nearly €500 (at least in Deutschland), and thus providing a window for price competition from Winwing.
I ordered the Orion as soon as the "in-stock" notice happened (had to use the US site because the China site was getting hammered). I also went ahead and ordered the extension since Kelso said it would work. My order is scheduled to arrive on April 1st. I am just now getting into DCS but I find it really difficult to learn without a throttle so I went for something good to start. If I simply can't get into the game, I'll sell it :). I figured I wanted to learn with the extension because that seems more natural to me. Although, I guess F18 pilots transitioning into F35 have to learn to go to a shorter throw stick. Now, I need to figure out what I want to do for Rudder Pedals...
As long as you watch those tutorials, it wont be that hard~ Also, my little advice, If you only fly f-18 and any other modules which has less buttons on stick, the f-18 stick like winwing or any other stick with f-18 grip are totally fine, but if you are going to fly modules with even more complicated HOTAS system, which means more buttons on stick, better just go get TM warthog stick, virpil or vkb GF PRO. Bc, As long as you get used to hotas system, these hotas buttons will be frequently used during intense flight and fight. It's also the same thing to the throttle. Pedals are important and price around 200 dollars is good to buy. I will spend more on pedals bc it brings more advantages in dogfight. What about VKB pedals, It's a nice one, you can also find other brand but i will say stay away from Logitech bc of the uncertain product qulity and duration. TM pedals is good but just for entry unless you get their top end pedals which will be extremely expensive.
I really want that orion hotas. I'm currently in the process no convincing myself it's a good investment. I might be done by the time they get back into stock update: I have an X52 and a gtx 970 I'm gonna sell, so the orion will feel cheaper. Yes it took me only 3h to convince myself
If you think about it, Winwing has had a long time to "get it right", and Warthog has been out for over a decade. So it's pretty much comparing generations of the HOTAS systems. Of course Warthog takes the dings, because it's a lot older. Another thing: Thrustmaster has gouged its prices since the pandemic - note the $800+ price tag! Bought my set for just at $500. Winwing's prices have remained constant.
I paid 350€ (don’t know in $ maybe 417?) my hotas warthog few years ago and I’m very happy with it. Some remarks on the warthog seems to me a little unfair about the quality when you compare to a X-52 or X-55, a more common brand than specialized ones like winwing and the others, but the one on the middle position of the stick about that « clutch » or whatever is specialy true. Note that you need to test the F/A-18C addon grip for the warthog, for me it’s night and day in every domain against the A10/F16 one. For me it’s that, learn on how to use a hotas on a warthog if your bank is ok then go on more specialised brand like winwing, VKB or Virpil. If I start serious DCS stuff will I choose a warthog ? Definitely yes. If my hotas died, do I’ll buy a warthog again ? Maybe not, maybe I’ll go for a VKB because they had a F-14 stick 😎 Anyways a great video from GR, very pro and impartial but it’s not a surprise with that Dream team. Fly safe buddies and full Afterburner on !
@@grimreapers so do you think Libra/Taurus is worth the step up or honestly is the difference not that great? Unfortunately I can’t think of any way to touch/feel one my self in person before buying.
As a real life pilot I can tell that the Warthog has a more realistic feel, since usually real airplane flight controls feel heavy from the start, they don’t start soft at the center. However the one thing the warthog misses is progressive increments in forces.
Thanks Cap and Co. Great little comparison video. Only just got hold of a brand new Warthog and after seeing the Orion sale price little buyer remorse might be creeping in. (but I do prefer the Viper stick layout)
Still enjoying my old T16k fcs setup, even tho´ it´s plastic feels cheap, it´s performance is still top notch. What do you Guys think of the Virpil stuff?
Seems like even the warhog has the same issue t16k has, the little bump when the stick is centered. This is the only thing I dont like on the t16k beside the built quality especially the z axis.
@@qiyuxuan9437 yeah..i ditched the twist for a pair of rudders.. But i will save up for a Virpil Setup.. this, plus VoiceAttack & VR, are a dream for Elite and IL-2
Thank you for this review. I ordered one last night and this reassures me I made the right choice. I am on your Discord server and in the wingman finder and as soon as I get this I will be looking to get some major flight time.
@@hidalgohouse3815 oh yeah, I have had it for a while now. I LOVE IT! The only thing I didn't like was it came in 4 separate boxes and were delivered all at different times. Made it harder to wait for all the boxes to get here. Definitely worth the money!!
Just now watching this in Jan 2023....Love the HOTAS comparison/review and the aerial refueling test afterward. Even in your worse day, you're all flying much better than I ever do...lol. I'm in the market for a HOTAS setup and this video was very helpful.
So the "real" feeling of a flightstick highly depends on the aircraft you are flying. In an F16 Viper for example, you dont really move the stick. You just apply pressure and the system determines the movement of the aircraft.
Very nice stick , I can see it beats out the Warthog in you guys opinions but I heard 1 of you say he'd been using the warthog 10 years....lets see if you can get 10 years out of the Winwing...
You kind of persuaded me to change my warthog hotas to the winwing f18 setup. Went to order yesterday, had it in my basket and what!!! $250 for shipping. That put it out of reach. Gutted😔
Looking at this 3 years later and you can get the Winwing Orion2 with the F-16EX stick for $400 (in the US, not sure about UK). The TM Warthog is going for around $550. I was about to buy one because I assumed the Winwing would be way more expensive. I'm glad I did some research. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the Winwing.
Hey ! It's indicated "Extension and Z axis are not recommend to orion hotas" on the store page, can you confirm/elaborate on that ? Can we add an extension to this stick ?
Yes, you can add it. BUT and this is a big BUT, I think the reason they don't recommend it is because the Orion base uses suction cups...yes...fucking suction cups as its desktop solution. They don't stick to much of anything under any force and the whole stick tips over when you roll or pitch too far. The solution would not hold up to you trying to twist the stick.
Very good review. Just one hint, not true at 17:30 I am using in my TM script profiles the buttons as axis frequently.. TM scripting manual: Axis control with buttons You may also manage axes with any kind of button. This is a good alternative solution to accurately control a mixture or a range parameter without mapping a physical axis controller.
I have been considering getting a full Virpil HOTAS\Pedal setup for about $1500, but this gives me pause to reflect about doing more research befor I drop coins... 🤔👍
thats crazy way more money that what you need to spend ... wing wing has a sale right now on the new stick for 299 and their extensive full panel throttle is about 500ish... so half the price
I will never buy another Thrustmaster Joystick/Controller in my life. A lot of problems with all four products i have. Looking for Winwing if this brand come to Brazil.
I just find it a bit odd, that their product aimed specifically at desk top use, does not come with the twist axis as standart. If you are ready to finally go past your old X52 pro, but not ready to commit to a full setup complete with rudder pedals, you will still have to buy the twist axis seperately, and its ofc out of stock, i think ill miss the hand rest aswell.
I actually never considered the warthog as my next upgrade, and so i had no idea it does not come with a twist axis either. winwing orion just happened to come along at the perfect time, and with the apparent build quality, and features i was looking for in an upgrade from my old X52. ill just have to look out for the twist axis in the future i guess.
I have never seen a high end stick with twist. I had the x52 pro and the twist axis broke 8 months in and I don't even use it. I would never fly without rudders
Enjoyed this, I have had to upgrade my 10 yr old warthog throttle pinkie switch and coolie hat. Cannot run to a full upgrade for now but it’s good there has been improvements made👍
Nice review! But I didn't have any conclusion of which stick you'd recommend. Which one? I'm already calling it out with the HOTAS Warthog, as it's too heavy and stiff for me.
I was able to pick up the Super Taurus/Super Libra with desk mounts/extension stick this black friday for I believe $700~.. I was looking at the Warthog setup due to price alone, but for a few hundred more and I could get the best of the best I couldnt pass it up!
So something no one is mentioning is the lack of CE Certification, which will in fact make it illegal across the whole EEA and can be confiscated by customs when it is imported? Or am I wrong and does yours have a CE Cert on it somewhere now?
I honestly just love that you have duct tape on your headphones! LOL Really great and detailed review! I'm just looking to play Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 better. Because a controller on that game just songs. Just way too springy. Looking at the Winwing now. I hadn't even heard of it until I looked at this video. Which by the way, was a change of pace because I'm so used to you posting vids about flight in the DCS and the like. So, thank you very much for making this video. Too all of you in the video, your input (no pun) was very useful and important to me! Cheers!!!!
What I want is an updated Thrustmaster Cougar Hotas (F16), nothing more and nothing less. Since I'm pretty much an F-16 exclusive sim flyer, it's what I'm focused on. The Cougar has been great for 20 years but I'm ready to move up to something that has less stick movement and is force based as is the stick in the real jet.
I have ben flying the thrustmaster warthog stick and hornet stick for 2 years with no extensions. I found that to get the best out of it you need to support your elbow and all the work is done through the wrist whereas on extensions it would be vice versa.
Great comparison, just what I was looking for! I thing of note though, I don't think it was mentioned in the video, at least I didn't pick it up. But that Thrustmaster Warthog throttle has been modified. Sadly its a very much needed modification to the POV "hat" axis on the front of the throttle (second from the right). On the original there is a small ball, like a miniature trackball design. And its the only POV hat that is analogue on the throttle. And its really bad. It goes all over the place and sometimes gets stuck. Many people change it to a stick instead similar to the analogue sticks on an Xbox/PS gamepad. Its the only way to use that function.
I just broke my ANT ELEV rotation knob. I didnt do anything wierd, all i know it that it was never smooth when i was zooming in with the TGP. I will keep you guys posted about their customer service.
is the joystick base for the orion the same as the super libra? They look the same but im not entirely sure. I ordered an orion but I want to mount the joystick to the table using the super libra mount as well as joystick extenstion. I know the joysticks are the same and the bases look almost identical I just cant tell if there is anything internal I cant see
The internals of the Libre base are adjustable/changeable. The internals of the Orion Joystick base come default as non-adjustable. They both use the same grip, so the extension is usable for both.
I still find refuelling in the F-14 tough. Cap's first couple of attempts mirrors my own experience. I use a very cheap, old Thrustmaster T-Flight X Stick. That's my excuse ;0)
I physically hacked my Warthog stick by cable tieing the spring to reduce the resistance and now its in my sweet spot. It takes a little experimentation and a few tools but it works!
It is very weird to me how TM hasn't developed their premium sim gear in so long. We are seeing all these new companies capturing those customers as a result.
Seems pretty nice, but i already installed the warthog in my sim and the winwing setup is a lot of money... sure its very good quality but i guess i gotta wait a little bit untill upgrading...
One Question - whats about the button layouts in DCS - do I have to create one in DCS - or is in DCS for any of these Hotas a default layout where all Buttons are already configured ? etc. Warthog stick and A10c module ?
Cap , I'm gonna buy for Christmas , but it has to be left-handed . . I hurt my right hand 3 years ago , can't do much with it. . Can you recommend a left-hand model ?
@@grimreapers For the last 25+ years , ever since our daughter took my computer off to college , I've greatly missed flying my Comanche , , especially so since finding the GR channel. . the beautiful graphics and the details of combat / the aircraft completely wowed me , , things have come a long way since the 1G days of 1998. . All 3 kids are through college and on their own now , well established in Life , , I'm retired now , , but I still have the yearning to fly my Comanche again , , and , , I'm going to , , but I can't use the keyboard with my right hand like it is . . I've learned how to do everything left-handed except shoot a real rifle ( I'm still right-eye dominant ) , if I can learn how to eat peas with a fork and not shake them off , then I'll learn to use a left-hand flight-stick even if I have to have it special made. the trick will be the throttle / collective , any help the GR can be is greatly appreciated. . thanks : - ) the Hillbilly
3 points Cap: 1) You can add extensions to the Warthog stick including a very long one and these totally change the feel for little cost. I bought a 4/6/8 inch combo pack and use the 6 inch extension. Brilliant. 2) I've bought the F18 add-on stick for the Warthog. It has a VERY firm second detent on the trigger. If anything too firm! With this F18 stick you are then comparing like for like,and also to the real F18. 3) Unfortunately you never did spend time getting used to the Warthog stick (with a simple cheap extension) so really haven't felt how good it can be. It does sound as if the Winwing sticks offer a little more functionality, but the only useful bit seems to be the 'pseudo analogue' action on the stick 8-way 'buttons'. This could easily be reproduced with a firmware change by Thrustmaster or an in game option. I bought my Warthog stick, throttle and F18 add-on grip brand new and love them ❤️🙂 I appreciate that you are sponsored by Winwing and get the sticks for free. Sounds good if you can get it.
1. but then you kill tabletop 2. thus you add ~160 € to the price tag of the system. If you want 2 grips, it is fair choice otherwise you have one not-that-cheap dust collector. 3. there is still question of the built quality, sensors, longevity
@@mungo7136 1) I use the Wheel Stand Pro. Much better than table top mount. 2) I use the Warthog stick for the A10 but the F18 stick for the F18, F16 and upcoming F15 as they use the same stick. 3) Can't comment as I don't have the Winwing, but the Thrustmaster seems good to me.
Does anyone know why the EXTENSION only works with Super LIBRA ? Is there one for ORION - so we can use the long drop mount from desk? Always fun watching gang ! It appears you left your headphones on the roof of your car then accelerated like the F18.... Allooomeeneum lol
Hi guys I have a question, in the winwing website they do not recommend using Orion with the extension. Can anyone confirm that it does not work with the extension? Or do they simply not recommend it to sell the extension with F-18 HOTAS?
i'd really love you to campare stick feeling betwin this kinda high range stuff and a g940 with simffb and a proper setting, planewise of course but above all helicopter wise. If i could change my throttle in a snap, there is barely no match between springs and ffb. Its a shame its completly forgotten these days.
Winwing with (rough, honestly) axes on stick. I'd have to try it to see if my hands fit because it looks like a bit of a reach. That would be a real fun thing to have for Star Citizen. And I'm basing this on my current CH setup which is great but very very plasticy and loose. I will miss the CH software if I switch though. Being able to write algorithms for specific situations is so nice.
I love it when you look into my eyes while playing with your stick
😂😂😂😂
All 3 sticks...
Ayo 😳that sounds different if you don’t know the video
HA!!
🤣🤣🤣
Cap continues to insist on looking nothing like his voice suggests.
Rude of me
*** I keep picturing him with a Top Hat , Monical and a Walking Cane. :)
@@cornbread5144 exactly
He sounds just like my jewler, Its uncanny.
i know im randomly asking but does anybody know a way to get back into an Instagram account..?
I somehow lost the password. I would appreciate any assistance you can give me.
Great video!!! Kinda makes me want to replace my warthog system... but what really caught my attention is the difference between VR and flying a screen. After 2.5 years of VR, I don't think I can fly without the depth perception that VR provides.
Can you explain how you do it? I just have the shittiest setup right now and a lot of stuff mapped to an xbox controller, can you fly completely without having to remove the glasses ever?
@@pnksmigge5324 That's the issue with VR, to make it immersive, you have to have some kind of cockpit setup... the more button boxes, the better. Ideally, you would set up a simpit that gives you the functionality for a particular model that you want to fly. Its a challenge, but well worth it!
@@420alphadog appreciate taking t he time to reply! It's all good, we're not in a rush to have everything tomorrow as it's a deep hobby I guess. Good thing 3D printing is another I bet :)
@@pnksmigge5324 ohh yeah, 3D printing + keyboard hobby + flight sims = easy simple custom button boxes
@@pnksmigge5324 It is very easy. Been flying dcs in VR for 4 years. Just get Voice attack. I never have to lift my visor. All wingman commands, pause, start engines, ANYTHING that needs a button you can use your voice. Can't live without it in VR. OH and I paid for it, but it's free now I believe as the community took over the program.
The increase in resistance with deflection gives you better awareness of stick position by feeling the pressure. 12:03 is the reason why the WinWing is the one to go for.
Copy
When I was in the Army I was a helicopter mechanic. When I was deployed to the Gulf War 1, I was working on AH-1's. One of our pilots was a firm believer in if you work on it you fly in it. So I got to go out on test flights riding front seat. Long story long, he would let us take the countrols. The thing I noticed more than anything is the Stick doesn't move at all. If you tried to yank it like you would fix wing you would end up upside down on the deck.
Warthog and WinWing are both in stock right now!
I ordered the Orion, last night as soon as the countdown ended on their site. What a cluster F. As for the Warthog A10C throttle sticking, I can confirm that their F/A18 stick does not have that issue. It also has a second click for the trigger. It's one smooth sucker. That said, I'll be using that for a VR co-pilot, as soon as the WinWing is delivered.
The amount of tape in this setup is blowing my mind.
This is the first time I've seen what you look like Grim Reaper. You look so cool (as expected lol). Love your content. I am so happy I discovered this channel super early in my DCS career!
Not sure that a more than 10 year old premium HOTAS has much chance against a brand new design. Virpil and VKB revolutionised consumer flightsim gear in my view. Would be better to compare to those two. Winwing appear to have been, let's say, very strongly "inspired" by VKB/Virpil in that special way that Chinese companies often are.
@@Melkor54 so does everyone!
@luciodon76 His information (or should I say assumption) is incorrect. Virpil has its factory in Belarus. I dont say they produce everything there though, they probably use some abroad suppliers for various items (for example packaging materials) like everyone else. I'm sure at least the assembly is done there.
Tu mélange tous, c’est thrusmaster qui a révolutionné la simulation de vols!!
Les autres n’ont fait que copier, la base AVA de thrusmaster a mis tous le monde d’accord j’ai vite revendu mon Pack Orion 2 pour retourner chez thrusmaster, vous pouvez dire ce que vous voulez la base AVA est au dessus du lot !!
The dislikes in this video are people in Australia trying to like the video
That is unfortunate...
@@grimreapers IKR. How can someone not like a GR vid. I luv all your content Bro..
xx
Хаха
Hi. CAP. Tony from Winwing. Thank you and team for the vote of confidence. And we all enjoy watching you and team fly with our equipment. ( I heard Kelso`s calm voice, haha)
My pleasure Tony, loving my WW!
Cheers Tony, the Orion is a great bit of kit, so well done to the team at Winwing and thank you for letting us test it. 👍
Good stuff here Tony, thanks.
Any discount codes going Tony???
The reapers would say anything for a freebie, that’s what they’re all about.
You are so not what I was expecting you to look like. :D I was expecting someone older. And I'm not criticizing what you look like, but my idea in my mind was so very different. :) Thanks for all your contribution to DCS.
He is phenomenal imho. Just amazing :)
I LOL'ed so hard when you were right there at the basket. TY for this vid! Super helpful in guiding me to ideal HOTAS.
Great review Cap... I cant get over how good my WinWing system is, I have the Super Taurus and Libra with the Stick extension and simply love it... I built mine into a home built FA18/c cockpit...Its simply amazing... Im about to get the adapter for the Warthog stick so I can place the Warthog onto the system etc. I dont like the Warthog stick base as its just sooooo heavy to move, then i got "Warthog Stickation" and that was it for me... WinWing all the way M8...
As someone who has been using a thrustmaster for years now I do like the fact that they have brought out a more "traditional" style of hotas system where you dont need to do any fancy things when it comes to mounting stuff to your desk. definatly a more accessible and easy to set up system where you basically just place it down on the table plug it in and enjoy. (this is more a comparison between the Orion vs super libra) if Winwing wanted a direct comparison product then making there own A10 stick and throttle would be good. I feel like its a little bit difficult to compare the throttles together as one is an A10 the other is an F18 so how many buttons one has i think is a little irrelevant as if the real A10 throttle has 12 buttons on it then adding buttons for the sake of adding more buttons then doesnt make it an A10 throttle anymore. comparing the flimsiness of buttons and switches however is something to compare and some of the buttons/hat switches do feel a little loose on my A10 throttle. I think for those people who are moving up from a basic hotas or even just a 3d pro which i used back when i first got into sims then grabbing the newer product might be a better option (Winwing Orion) but in the end it also just comes down to what aircraft you like. would you like an A10c or F18 stick and throttle. My stick is slowly starting to show signs of ware and tare where the cable has opened a little and ive put tape round it. so a new stick is in order for me. With RAZBAM showing off pictures of the F15E which uses a similar stick to the F18c i think i know what stick i might get in future.
There will be several new sticks/throttle handle attachments available to the Orion. Next up will be the F-16, and a few more that may surprise you.
Great vid Cap thanks for comparing these
i am using the old MS Precision 2 with Force Feedback and needed a hald inch selfmade rubber spacer for the bottom Hand Rest to lift my Hand in a supported all day long position. And the name precision in the name of the stick is real description of the habit of it. I can adjust the stick force in game. I love to know people like you with the same interrests and passion.
Watching this after ordering an Orion with a massive grin on my face lol This is some top notch marketing right here lol
What is really interesting about these are the price point right now. Pre-COVID the Warthog set was about half the price it is now, this WINWING set is really bringing you more bang for a cheaper price. Making it very tempting to me.
That's a very interesting observation. Not quite a doubling but from sub €400 to nearly €500 (at least in Deutschland), and thus providing a window for price competition from Winwing.
Exactly, it makes you think they may be taking advantage of the shortage?
@@wildbillkelso2083 add duty tax though and its really expensive i looked at getting on then i didnt
They are all great Devices. I am glad that are some OEMs like producing these devices
The TM stick is excellent but the TM throttles are absolute trash for the price.
I fly the F18 so much I should get this, might be a nice Birthday present to me
As an American, I’ll never get tired of hearing a Brit say aluminum.
I ordered the Orion as soon as the "in-stock" notice happened (had to use the US site because the China site was getting hammered). I also went ahead and ordered the extension since Kelso said it would work. My order is scheduled to arrive on April 1st.
I am just now getting into DCS but I find it really difficult to learn without a throttle so I went for something good to start. If I simply can't get into the game, I'll sell it :). I figured I wanted to learn with the extension because that seems more natural to me. Although, I guess F18 pilots transitioning into F35 have to learn to go to a shorter throw stick.
Now, I need to figure out what I want to do for Rudder Pedals...
As long as you watch those tutorials, it wont be that hard~
Also, my little advice, If you only fly f-18 and any other modules which has less buttons on stick, the f-18 stick like winwing or any other stick with f-18 grip are totally fine, but if you are going to fly modules with even more complicated HOTAS system, which means more buttons on stick, better just go get TM warthog stick, virpil or vkb GF PRO. Bc, As long as you get used to hotas system, these hotas buttons will be frequently used during intense flight and fight. It's also the same thing to the throttle.
Pedals are important and price around 200 dollars is good to buy. I will spend more on pedals bc it brings more advantages in dogfight. What about VKB pedals, It's a nice one, you can also find other brand but i will say stay away from Logitech bc of the uncertain product qulity and duration. TM pedals is good but just for entry unless you get their top end pedals which will be extremely expensive.
Should I go for the NXT premium or the Orion stick + rudder pedals?
Thanks G.R. I'm thinking about seeking my warthog throttle and stick for the Orion.
I really want that orion hotas. I'm currently in the process no convincing myself it's a good investment. I might be done by the time they get back into stock
update: I have an X52 and a gtx 970 I'm gonna sell, so the orion will feel cheaper. Yes it took me only 3h to convince myself
If you think about it, Winwing has had a long time to "get it right", and Warthog has been out for over a decade. So it's pretty much comparing generations of the HOTAS systems. Of course Warthog takes the dings, because it's a lot older. Another thing: Thrustmaster has gouged its prices since the pandemic - note the $800+ price tag! Bought my set for just at $500. Winwing's prices have remained constant.
Exactly. It does appear like price gouging on TM's part.
Does the WW support TARGET Script or any other kind of scripting language?
I paid 350€ (don’t know in $ maybe 417?) my hotas warthog few years ago and I’m very happy with it.
Some remarks on the warthog seems to me a little unfair about the quality when you compare to a X-52 or X-55, a more common brand than specialized ones like winwing and the others, but the one on the middle position of the stick about that « clutch » or whatever is specialy true.
Note that you need to test the F/A-18C addon grip for the warthog, for me it’s night and day in every domain against the A10/F16 one.
For me it’s that, learn on how to use a hotas on a warthog if your bank is ok then go on more specialised brand like winwing, VKB or Virpil.
If I start serious DCS stuff will I choose a warthog ? Definitely yes.
If my hotas died, do I’ll buy a warthog again ? Maybe not, maybe I’ll go for a VKB because they had a F-14 stick 😎
Anyways a great video from GR, very pro and impartial but it’s not a surprise with that Dream team.
Fly safe buddies and full Afterburner on !
worth noting also that some bases are interchangeable with TM grip and vice versa so one may only need a base
So if you can only have one of the two systems (Libra/Taurus or Orion) which would it be?
Libra/Taurus is best but Orion is half the $price.
@@grimreapers so do you think Libra/Taurus is worth the step up or honestly is the difference not that great? Unfortunately I can’t think of any way to touch/feel one my self in person before buying.
As a real life pilot I can tell that the Warthog has a more realistic feel, since usually real airplane flight controls feel heavy from the start, they don’t start soft at the center. However the one thing the warthog misses is progressive increments in forces.
Thanks Sir :)
More realistic feel compared to what, an A-10C/F-16C or an unassisted Cessna?
blud is comparing a cessna to an a10. lmfao
I would love to see wing wing bring out an A-10C stick
Thanks Cap and Co. Great little comparison video. Only just got hold of a brand new Warthog and after seeing the Orion sale price little buyer remorse might be creeping in. (but I do prefer the Viper stick layout)
Still enjoying my old T16k fcs setup, even tho´ it´s plastic feels cheap, it´s performance is still top notch.
What do you Guys think of the Virpil stuff?
Seems like even the warhog has the same issue t16k has, the little bump when the stick is centered. This is the only thing I dont like on the t16k beside the built quality especially the z axis.
@@qiyuxuan9437 yeah..i ditched the twist for a pair of rudders..
But i will save up for a Virpil Setup.. this, plus VoiceAttack & VR, are a dream for Elite and IL-2
Can't go wrong with Virpil, all quality stuff. You get what you pay for.
I will like to thank you and the rest of the Grim Reapers for teaching and showing me what I need to fly right.
Thank you for this review. I ordered one last night and this reassures me I made the right choice. I am on your Discord server and in the wingman finder and as soon as I get this I will be looking to get some major flight time.
have you gotten it yet?
@@hidalgohouse3815 oh yeah, I have had it for a while now. I LOVE IT! The only thing I didn't like was it came in 4 separate boxes and were delivered all at different times. Made it harder to wait for all the boxes to get here. Definitely worth the money!!
Can we put a Virpil stick on a winwing base?
Just now watching this in Jan 2023....Love the HOTAS comparison/review and the aerial refueling test afterward. Even in your worse day, you're all flying much better than I ever do...lol. I'm in the market for a HOTAS setup and this video was very helpful.
check out vkb highly reccomend their products affordable and easy to setup very nice
So the "real" feeling of a flightstick highly depends on the aircraft you are flying. In an F16 Viper for example, you dont really move the stick. You just apply pressure and the system determines the movement of the aircraft.
Yes thats quite an odd one (but true)
Middle aged children. Awesome.
Never want to grow up.
Yep, keeps us young.
Can we have all videos with your control cams.
I like when he recommends that now he has had a large extension he cannot go back to a small stick! could not make it up!
Size matters! :D
Very nice stick , I can see it beats out the Warthog in you guys opinions but I heard 1 of you say he'd been using the warthog 10 years....lets see if you can get 10 years out of the Winwing...
You kind of persuaded me to change my warthog hotas to the winwing f18 setup. Went to order yesterday, had it in my basket and what!!! $250 for shipping. That put it out of reach. Gutted😔
Great review guys!
Thank you,
Looking at this 3 years later and you can get the Winwing Orion2 with the F-16EX stick for $400 (in the US, not sure about UK). The TM Warthog is going for around $550. I was about to buy one because I assumed the Winwing would be way more expensive. I'm glad I did some research. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the Winwing.
Hey ! It's indicated "Extension and Z axis are not recommend to orion hotas" on the store page, can you confirm/elaborate on that ? Can we add an extension to this stick ?
Yes, you can add it. BUT and this is a big BUT, I think the reason they don't recommend it is because the Orion base uses suction cups...yes...fucking suction cups as its desktop solution. They don't stick to much of anything under any force and the whole stick tips over when you roll or pitch too far. The solution would not hold up to you trying to twist the stick.
Very good review. Just one hint, not true at 17:30 I am using in my TM script profiles the buttons as axis frequently.. TM scripting manual: Axis control with buttons
You may also manage axes with any kind of button. This is a good alternative solution to accurately control a
mixture or a range parameter without mapping a physical axis controller.
This video was brought to you by WinWing...
I have been considering getting a full Virpil HOTAS\Pedal setup for about $1500, but this gives me pause to reflect about doing more research befor I drop coins... 🤔👍
thats crazy way more money that what you need to spend ... wing wing has a sale right now on the new stick for 299 and their extensive full panel throttle is about 500ish... so half the price
I will never buy another Thrustmaster Joystick/Controller in my life. A lot of problems with all four products i have. Looking for Winwing if this brand come to Brazil.
Yah chief you may want to get that ring resized!
I just find it a bit odd, that their product aimed specifically at desk top use, does not come with the twist axis as standart. If you are ready to finally go past your old X52 pro, but not ready to commit to a full setup complete with rudder pedals, you will still have to buy the twist axis seperately, and its ofc out of stock, i think ill miss the hand rest aswell.
The Warthog does not have a twist grip as standard. Winwing has an add on you can purchase if you don't have rudder pedals.
I actually never considered the warthog as my next upgrade, and so i had no idea it does not come with a twist axis either. winwing orion just happened to come along at the perfect time, and with the apparent build quality, and features i was looking for in an upgrade from my old X52. ill just have to look out for the twist axis in the future i guess.
I have never seen a high end stick with twist. I had the x52 pro and the twist axis broke 8 months in and I don't even use it. I would never fly without rudders
If your upgrading x52 get pedals, it makes a difference👍
@@raptorman0 I love my MFG Crosswinds
Great review guys I think you have convinced me the Orion F18C is the one for me. Can I ask what software you were using in the team refuelling.
Where is the trimmer wheel on stick ?possible?
Enjoyed this, I have had to upgrade my 10 yr old warthog throttle pinkie switch and coolie hat. Cannot run to a full upgrade for now but it’s good there has been improvements made👍
Nice review! But I didn't have any conclusion of which stick you'd recommend. Which one? I'm already calling it out with the HOTAS Warthog, as it's too heavy and stiff for me.
I was able to pick up the Super Taurus/Super Libra with desk mounts/extension stick this black friday for I believe $700~.. I was looking at the Warthog setup due to price alone, but for a few hundred more and I could get the best of the best I couldnt pass it up!
Is that weird attachment on your mic your head tracker?
ya
So something no one is mentioning is the lack of CE Certification, which will in fact make it illegal across the whole EEA and can be confiscated by customs when it is imported? Or am I wrong and does yours have a CE Cert on it somewhere now?
Old news Kevin. They had a few go out in October. That was quickly corrected. ALL Winwing products come with a CE Cert.
@@wildbillkelso2083 cool thanks for clearing that up.
I honestly just love that you have duct tape on your headphones! LOL Really great and detailed review! I'm just looking to play Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 better. Because a controller on that game just songs. Just way too springy.
Looking at the Winwing now. I hadn't even heard of it until I looked at this video. Which by the way, was a change of pace because I'm so used to you posting vids about flight in the DCS and the like. So, thank you very much for making this video. Too all of you in the video, your input (no pun) was very useful and important to me!
Cheers!!!!
Hey need help. What is the shipping weight/size of the Orion? I'm trying
to sort out the shipping but no one from winning is replying to me...
What I want is an updated Thrustmaster Cougar Hotas (F16), nothing more and nothing less. Since I'm pretty much an F-16 exclusive sim flyer, it's what I'm focused on. The Cougar has been great for 20 years but I'm ready to move up to something that has less stick movement and is force based as is the stick in the real jet.
Well WinWing has you covered now, they have the F-16 throttle & stick now. Go check out their site m8.
@@PiNKMuDSimGaming Thanks for the heads up!
I'm dying of laughter at the end. good review man
I have ben flying the thrustmaster warthog stick and hornet stick for 2 years with no extensions. I found that to get the best out of it you need to support your elbow and all the work is done through the wrist whereas on extensions it would be vice versa.
Hey good to see a magpie on here. Enjoy the final months of hornets, i know im watching them as closely as i can
Out of these 3 hotas which one do you recommend
For features and value, Winwing F-18 Taurus/LIbre for features. Orion Hotas for features and value.
I have a question what is the difference between planes that only have the name of the plane written on them and those that have them written for DCS?
I've never seen the price on the winwing hotas..
How much do those things go for?
Under the video, you will see a "show more" link. Click that and the two online stores are listed there.
The Orion is $500 + ~$85 shipping to US. The Libra is $900 + ~$130 shipping to US.
i actually just bought the Warthog System last night (11-28) and i am excited to learn how to use it..
Great comparison, just what I was looking for!
I thing of note though, I don't think it was mentioned in the video, at least I didn't pick it up. But that Thrustmaster Warthog throttle has been modified.
Sadly its a very much needed modification to the POV "hat" axis on the front of the throttle (second from the right).
On the original there is a small ball, like a miniature trackball design. And its the only POV hat that is analogue on the throttle.
And its really bad. It goes all over the place and sometimes gets stuck. Many people change it to a stick instead similar to the analogue sticks on an Xbox/PS gamepad. Its the only way to use that function.
arnt we talking about an extra 4 to 500 dollers for the wingwing? if not ill but it right now
Awesome video, thx Grimreapers!
I just broke my ANT ELEV rotation knob. I didnt do anything wierd, all i know it that it was never smooth when i was zooming in with the TGP. I will keep you guys posted about their customer service.
Yeah, brother.
After watching this vid everyone should know what to get. ; )
Also is the trim on the stick ? I guess that wasnt the test.
Not sure what you mean? Modern sticks are auto-trimmed.
@@grimreapers I guess I meant shouldn't you be using trim to accurately connect to the refueling receptacle
is the joystick base for the orion the same as the super libra? They look the same but im not entirely sure. I ordered an orion but I want to mount the joystick to the table using the super libra mount as well as joystick extenstion. I know the joysticks are the same and the bases look almost identical I just cant tell if there is anything internal I cant see
The internals of the Libre base are adjustable/changeable. The internals of the Orion Joystick base come default as non-adjustable. They both use the same grip, so the extension is usable for both.
I still find refuelling in the F-14 tough. Cap's first couple of attempts mirrors my own experience. I use a very cheap, old Thrustmaster T-Flight X Stick. That's my excuse ;0)
I have the same stick and I to have trouble refueling the F-14. I have no problem with the F-18 and the M-2000 so it is what it is.
Hope they sell it separate when they finish the Viper throttle, Nice stuff!
Viper huge yes. It's so awesome people are devving quality cockpit hardware again.
Cap do you have a video on curves for the warthog stick or anything similar? Cant even keep my sight on a stationary tank
Neg but when I had a desktop HOTAS I used a curve of +25 for both axis + rudder.
@@grimreapers thank you! Will try that out
Do any have proportional braking? I can't find any pedals for my xbox series x | s?
Can you put an extension on the Orion stick so it is the the same length degrees of movement as the Taurus?
I've been told not to extend the Orion.
I physically hacked my Warthog stick by cable tieing the spring to reduce the resistance and now its in my sweet spot. It takes a little experimentation and a few tools but it works!
Hi Cap! What you think about Logitech X56 Rhino HOTAS? Please share your opinion with us! Regards!
search "grim reapers x-56", got loads of vids on it.
The one thing I hate about the warthog stick. It's very stiff. Makes it harder to do formation and air to air refuel. I need to get something new.
The Orion Hotas would be the feature and value choice. Otherwise you'll be spending hundreds more for a lesser featured Virpil.
Just get an extension... it’s like a whole new world
Yeah very stiff, is why I prefer WinWing, or Thrustmaster series... or VKB Sim series.
When are these going to be back in stock?
Very informative & funny 🙏❤
It is very weird to me how TM hasn't developed their premium sim gear in so long.
We are seeing all these new companies capturing those customers as a result.
The answer is probably very simple. Where is the most money...?
Seems pretty nice, but i already installed the warthog in my sim and the winwing setup is a lot of money... sure its very good quality but i guess i gotta wait a little bit untill upgrading...
Warthog is an incredible hotas. I wouldn’t worry about it until it comes to it
One Question - whats about the button layouts in DCS - do I have to create one in DCS - or is in DCS for any of these Hotas a default layout where all Buttons are already configured ? etc. Warthog stick and A10c module ?
You have to bind each control separately. DCS did that for the warthog years ago and haven't repeated it for any other controls.
great video, thank you!
Cap , I'm gonna buy for Christmas , but it has to be left-handed . . I hurt my right hand 3 years ago , can't do much with it. . Can you recommend a left-hand model ?
I didn't realise there were any LH hotas? Happy to be wrong.
@@grimreapers For the last 25+ years , ever since our daughter took my computer off to college , I've greatly missed flying my Comanche , , especially so since finding the GR channel. . the beautiful graphics and the details of combat / the aircraft completely wowed me , , things have come a long way since the 1G days of 1998. . All 3 kids are through college and on their own now , well established in Life , , I'm retired now , , but I still have the yearning to fly my Comanche again , , and , , I'm going to , , but I can't use the keyboard with my right hand like it is . . I've learned how to do everything left-handed except shoot a real rifle ( I'm still right-eye dominant ) , if I can learn how to eat peas with a fork and not shake them off , then I'll learn to use a left-hand flight-stick even if I have to have it special made. the trick will be the throttle / collective , any help the GR can be is greatly appreciated. . thanks : - )
the Hillbilly
you should do a software/bind tutorial for dcs.
I see you're using trackir. What control do you zoom with?
rdr elevation axis on the throttle. I think that's what it's called.
You can also just lean forward for closer zoom. That's what I do. I have mine on a sport cap I wear.
where are people getting these prices for the hog? it was 500 when i got it, and i usually see it for 5-600.. wheres this 800+ coming from
Have the warthog for many years now. Want to upgrade it. Debating winwing or virpil. Thoughts? (Great video)
3 points Cap:
1) You can add extensions to the Warthog stick including a very long one and these totally change the feel for little cost. I bought a 4/6/8 inch combo pack and use the 6 inch extension. Brilliant.
2) I've bought the F18 add-on stick for the Warthog. It has a VERY firm second detent on the trigger. If anything too firm! With this F18 stick you are then comparing like for like,and also to the real F18.
3) Unfortunately you never did spend time getting used to the Warthog stick (with a simple cheap extension) so really haven't felt how good it can be.
It does sound as if the Winwing sticks offer a little more functionality, but the only useful bit seems to be the 'pseudo analogue' action on the stick 8-way 'buttons'. This could easily be reproduced with a firmware change by Thrustmaster or an in game option.
I bought my Warthog stick, throttle and F18 add-on grip brand new and love them ❤️🙂
I appreciate that you are sponsored by Winwing and get the sticks for free. Sounds good if you can get it.
1. but then you kill tabletop
2. thus you add ~160 € to the price tag of the system. If you want 2 grips, it is fair choice otherwise you have one not-that-cheap dust collector.
3. there is still question of the built quality, sensors, longevity
@@mungo7136 1) I use the Wheel Stand Pro. Much better than table top mount.
2) I use the Warthog stick for the A10 but the F18 stick for the F18, F16 and upcoming F15 as they use the same stick.
3) Can't comment as I don't have the Winwing, but the Thrustmaster seems good to me.
Does anyone know why the EXTENSION only works with Super LIBRA ? Is there one for ORION - so we can use the long drop mount from desk?
Always fun watching gang !
It appears you left your headphones on the roof of your car then accelerated like the F18.... Allooomeeneum lol
I don't think the Orion can work with an extension.
How do the Virpil flight stick and throttle compare to the WW and TM?
I don't know anyone that has a Virpil and one of the others so still can't compare :(
Hi guys I have a question, in the winwing website they do not recommend using Orion with the extension. Can anyone confirm that it does not work with the extension? Or do they simply not recommend it to sell the extension with F-18 HOTAS?
Try DMing Kelso in the GR discord. He'll know.
i'd really love you to campare stick feeling betwin this kinda high range stuff and a g940 with simffb and a proper setting, planewise of course but above all helicopter wise. If i could change my throttle in a snap, there is barely no match between springs and ffb. Its a shame its completly forgotten these days.
Winwing with (rough, honestly) axes on stick. I'd have to try it to see if my hands fit because it looks like a bit of a reach. That would be a real fun thing to have for Star Citizen. And I'm basing this on my current CH setup which is great but very very plasticy and loose. I will miss the CH software if I switch though. Being able to write algorithms for specific situations is so nice.