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16 Core WORSE Than 14 Core in Ableton? M3 MAX MacBook Pro
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- Опубликовано: 13 авг 2024
- Seems like the 14 Core MacBook Pro M3 Max works better (sporadically! not all the time) than the 16 Core with Ableton Live 11. The 16 Core IS hardware-wise a better performer in most cases.
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In SOME projects (as the one I show here) it seems like the 14 Core M3 Max works better. But in other types of project the M3 Max 16 Core performs "as it should". See the comments from @kaitracid3168 where he have done more tests!
i have a question....when i'm trying to test the capapilities of some laptops, does it make sense to just make a small project with like 8 different instances of omnisphere (bass, bells, lead, pad and 2 layers each) and then copy these instances as often as the particular machine can handle it? ....right now i'm over 500 instances before i get any dropouts (which is mindblowing to me), but i'm not sure if this test really gives me an approximately impression of the capapilities or if this test is super flawed and unnecessary because there are only 8 different omnisphere patches and 4 different midi patterns, copied over and over again .....i would be very thankful for your insights
if you’re genuinely running over 500 omnisphere instances with no dropouts or any CPU stutter / crackling issues then i’m assuming you either aren’t playing any audio back after you duplicated the tracks or your specific Macbook was forged in the literal fires of Mt. Doom. The best way I can suggest to setup an honest, unbiased A-B comparison would be to do a fresh Ableton install on both systems, disable wifi, bluetooth, spotlight, any startup processes, etc.. running on your computer, reboot Macbooks & when finder launches fully then open ableton. throw only an instance of operator or analog (something native & on its default setting) on a midi channel, create a 4 bar quarter note loop, then begin to duplicate the tracks one at a time with a few seconds in between while monitoring your systems performance readouts. a lot of plugins engage *intelligent / silent* standby bypasses or have varying times accessing their root folder or a number of other random things that can give intermittent results & wont be as honest as just a fresh open with the same native insert as a steady & truthful control group.
@@xXTHRASH3R666Xx thank you for your input .... we pretty much did this but with omnisphere instead of operator, and with a little composition with different omnisphere instruments, playing different midi note, then grouped them and copied them while letting the project play ....when the project reached around 500 instances we also manually played some midi notes and opened omnisphere to change some settings to check if we just can play back the project or if it's still possible to work in it ....after that i wrote my comment because i was pretty stunned and not sure if this test is flawed because we just copied the same 5 different omnisphere instruments ...strange thing to me, everytime we copied the group, the memory usage went up but when we only had like 400mb left of memory and still copied instances the memory usage went down!?...so i'm still not really sure how omnisphere handles the memory usage if i just copy the same instance again and again but i guess it makes a difference to load up 500 instances of omnisphere with 500 different patches but this test would be to exhausting ....and it's not a macbook, so far we just tested machines with amd 7840hs
@@xXTHRASH3R666Xxi'm sorry ...just 186 omnisphere instances at 2048 samples buffer size...overall more than 500 tracks incl. group tracks etc...my bad ....if you want to check it out, here is the title of the full test video
"Music Production Performance Test - Mini PC #1 - Beelink SER7 - Ryzen 7 7840HS"
on an i9 -13900H with a RME UCX 2 at 48K@ 256, I got it up to 90 tracks, just a perspective from the windows side
Thank you so much for sharing!
Windows 11? What daw software
How many rams?
Thanks for the vid! Are we talking about 14" or 16" MacBooks here? Might make a slight difference
Fabulous video, I just ordered a M3 Max to replace my M1 Max. This gives me a reference to think about.
Did you really need to replace the m1 max? Sorry if this reads like a partner querying your purchases, I just bought an m1 max studio and I’m doing okay.
So ableton has updated its help page on the subject to say that now higher buffer size will result in lower CPU usage on apple silicon (the page used to say the contrary before); so probably something was done in the latest updates (latest 11 and probably 12)
it has to be noted that the weird behaviour was on EVERY apple silicon computer.
Yes I saw that, it was the other way around before :D
This is the answer I got from Ableton when asking about utilising efficiency cores: Live attempts to schedule all audio threads on performance cores (P) to ensure consistent and predictable performance. You can read more about this in this section of our public KB article:
Reducing the CPU load on macOS
There are currently no plans to change this behavior in the foreseeable future. You may want to consider opting for a CPU that has a higher ratio of performance cores for improved performance.
Yeah, basically the same answer I got. "Read the manual" :)
Thank you for all your videos, really appreciate the time and effort you put into these. On a side note, all these tests are far from how you’d usually use these machines. I’ve tested a lot of my own projects on my MBA M1 and iMac i9 9900k and both machines worked well up to 300+ tracks of different types (audio, heavy vsts, midi, synths). You will never use 300x Serum or Diva as a composer, mixing/mastering engineer, sound designer or producer. All the machines are fully capable to produce most things without any issues. Don’t fall into the trap of unrealistic benchmarks.
Someone who talks sense finally
Yes, that is why I _also_ have videos showing real projects.
@@bjornark absolutely, this is why I am watching your videos. I appreciate the effort and your insights.
I honestly believe that Ableton isn't meant for a lot of tracks. Just think memory usage and task management usage are very low on Ableton, but once I test Cubase, it will use all my cores and all my 64GB RAM. Like It is not optimized at all, similar to Cubase, where it will run fine with 1000 tracks.
His 16 core M3 Max is 14 inch and his 14 core M3 Max is 16 Inch.
The 16 inch can use it’s powers better because it don’t get as hot as the 14 inch.
There are videos on RUclips talking about this.
I think that is the reason for the 14 core playing more tracks.
They talk about it here:
ruclips.net/video/E9IJ7nOAZyM/видео.htmlsi=LbxzmwQrRYlM-Pmx
First of all great video, thumbs up!
I still have a hard time deciding which upgrade will eliminate most of my problems I have with my macbook air m1 16 gb ram.
I wanna have the freedom to produce big edm tracks etc. without having problems with playback or mixing, but my laptop just cannot handle it at all.
Would you recommend a macbook pro m3 max 16 core 48gb ram which has more performance cores, or lets say a mac studio m2 max 64 gb ram 12 core🤔
I just don’t wanna deal with crackling and crashing projects anymore😭😭
I use Fl Studio, Ableton and Logic Pro👍🏼
Thanks in advance!!🤞🏼
Nuendo/Cubase hasn’t given me any issues yet and I think is better optimized for Apple silicon. In fact the base m3 max has beaten out my workstation PC in overall performance with larger projects - both using RME drivers. Granted my PC CPU is a now two gens old, but my 3950x has held up well over the last few years for all my audio and video work.
Cubase is made for running massive projects in mind and composing for movies (nuendo). It will take advantage of using more CPU and RAM than Ableton ever will.
I use Nuendo for film score and sound design projects, loaded up an old project when I first got it, 600+ tracks, with orchestral groups sitting around 100 simultaneous, I was surprised how well the m3 worked without adding a massive increase to buffer using the RME drivers written direct to the kernel - haven’t tried the new driver kit drivers yet. I haven’t actually written anything new using the m3 either so its ability on that front is still a question, but I was pleasantly surprised that I could get full playback without issue from a large ported complex project.
Cubase and that plug in management where it is always looking ahead, even if you aren’t playing anything, is something that every DAW oughta be doing.
OK so what Mac do I buy for Live 11? Just tell me.
Buy the one with the best performance you can afford.
I‘m having serious issues with Live 11 on a M1 mbp with 14” 10 Core and 32 GB RAM. 😢 After months I am still not able to properly make music.
I tried playing with different buffer sizes already. Any help is very much appreciated!
Check your plugins and VSTs. Do troubleshooting, create a minimal project with only stock plugins. Does it work then? If so, then add more stuff and see what happens and if you can pinpoint the error.
@@bjornark everything was fine with the plug-ins. I came across another tip which was to refresh “coreaudiod” in the activity monitor. This made the crackling go away, finally!
At least on the first quick project I just did.
Awesome!
I need a new laptop immediately, my only DAW is Ableton, and all these problems keep throwing me off. I was going to get the 16 inch M2 pro with 1tb and 16gb for £2400. Then I thought ideally I wanted at least 2tb as I can easily fill 1TB and hate using external drives...and 32gb ram just in case. First with the Pro core downgrade I thought I might as well now get the m3 Max 16 since it appears to offer nearly 3x the performance of the base macbook pro and double that of the pro so should last me 2 or 3 times as long. Now with the 14 max performing better than the 16 I really don't know. Why doesn't this problem seem to apply to M1? Does this apply to base chips and pro chips and if not why not? I've never heard of this issue on M2 either in James Zahn's testing.
I would _assume_ it would be fixed in the future. But right now its like this.
@@bjornark I’ve watched all of James Zhans testing and the rule always seems to be ignore efficiency cores and go for the most performance cores - the m3 max seemed to demolish the others in his tests so he didn’t seem to notice any issues. Maybe the tests weren’t over a long enough time period or a low buffer size. Then we have DAWs like reaper which appear to be using all of the efficiency cores with no issue. It all seems very messy. I might buy a reel to reel tape machine instead haha
If I recall correctly Apple also is partially to blame here because they are making it unnecessarily hard for developers to properly use the hardware to its fullest. I mean even their in-house solution Logic is suffering from performance issues. Oh well. At this point we have to ask ourselves if maybe Apple Silicon is currently not the best choice for music production? How do modern AMD based laptops perform these days with Ableton?
Haha, about time to get DAWless :D
I would not get an AMD laptop for music production.
Thank you for this! I just got an M3 Max MacBook Pro, and I thought I was totally alone in the issue! You're right about Apple doing stuff like this. When M1 came out, they said the architecture would be easily scalable for developers; part of the appeal was that the devs wouldn't have to code for specific chips-just for Apple silicon. Whether it's an issue with Apple's SDK's or an oversight by Ableton, it's annoying nonetheless. I sold my old computer, and I have important projects to get in with deadlines coming up. I'm really not sure what to do, as many sessions require buffer sizes of >128. My only solution is to freeze everything, which will also take forever. 😔
Apple is good at marketing ;)
@@bjornark ikr I’m gullible lmao
@@bjornark I’ve found it works better in a VM weirdly but I feel like that’s so dramatic to do it that way hahahahah
It's up to us as consumers to give the devs some crap, when things perform oddly. Whether it be new games, image editing software, DAW's etc. They are accountable, and should 100% be held to task about their performance or lack thereof.
You might decide that your own content seems less valuable Bjornar, but it all has a place and adds weight to the findings - so try not to be so hard on your own content. I'm very fussy, and if I can keep viewing it - it has to be pretty darn good, despite your own opinions lol...
;)
Yes, its strange that the 14Core performs better. (In some cases)
Thanks for sharing the video. Keep up your good work. I did some more test where the 16 beats the 14 core but It was much louder.
I also found out the at a bit above 80% CPU crackling starts.
RUclipsr James Zahn did a test with the new M3pro. I recreate the same test with the M3Max.
Ableton Live 11.
44,1kHz, 1024 Buffer
Every track got a Audio Guitar wave + Neural DSP's Archetype: Nolly plugin
M3 Pro 11 Core 60 tracks 83% ( James Zahn test)
M1 Pro 10 Core 72 tracks 100%
M3 Max 14 Core 91 tracks 126%
M3 Max 16 Core 109 tracks 151%
So the M3 Max is better in Performance then the M1 Pro or M1 Max.
Fan Noise @80% CPU after 15 min.
M1 Pro 10 Core - -40,6dB
M3 Max 14 Core - -40,5dB
M3 Max 16 Core - -35,1dB
The M3 MAX 16 core fan is approx. 5 dB louder!
The M3 max IS better hardware - wise, as your test here shows. So it is probably a combination of what type of VSTs that are used and how they are programmed?
@@bjornark another test I did.
Demo Song Live 11 Loop the part 49-57
44,1kHz, 128 Buffer Internal Soundcard
M3 Max 16 Core 13x Demo Song (CPU Peak 81%) (377 tracks)
M3 Max 14 Core 12x Demo Song (CPU Peak 87%) (348 tracks)
M3 Max 14 Core 11x Demo Song (CPU Peak 80%) (319 tracks)
M1 Pro 10 Core 07x Demo Song (CPU Peak 80%) (203 tracks)
M3 Max 16 Core 185%
M3 Max 14 Core 170%
M3 Max 14 Core 157%
M1 Pro 10 Core 100%
thats so weird! i did the nolly test on my 13900k and played ca 180 tracks. But with diva and serum i only managed about 115 - both in reaper.
In an Ableton forum they stated that "it's definitely being worked on":
"M1,2,3 apple silicon chips today have an architecture composed of performance and efficiency cores. This was known in the past as a big.LITTLE architecture and did not exist on personal computers, only mobile phones. Nowadays it's both on Mac and PC with Intel's latest offerings as well.
This creates a challenge on how a DAW best distributes work to various cores. It's definitely being worked on by our engine team."
.
...but this is all confusing the more I try to find out!
So since I'm still on an intel, I might go 16 core M3 anyway, right?...
Ah that message sounds good. I have signed up for the 12 beta but not been accepted yet. I will test the differences between theese two.
@@bjornark thanks for your efforts, looking forward!
It’s because Ableton hasn’t been optimised to use the efficiency cores in Apple Silicon. The software only uses the performance cores. The M3 processor has less performance cores and more efficiency cores. I for one, won’t be paying any more money to Ableton until they fix this.
Exactly, Lets see when version 12 comes out.
@@bjornark Any update on this?
Yes. Check my newest video. 👍
@@bjornarksame issues in logic ? I just ordered the m3 max
Ableton Live 12 is around the corner. I think they have been busy working on all the new features for it, so hopefully some time after Live 12 release they start working on performance.
That might be correct, we have to wait and see.
I’m tired of paying Ableton money for a updates that feel more like a bug fixes
@@anyoneanyone28I use fl studio, and all the updates are free and seem to work great on my m3 max with 8TB SSD and 128GB unified memory with 12 p cores and 4 e cores
whatever happen to bouncing to audio or freezing tracks? lol not using abletn features people?
Its a hassle to freeze, but for heavy projects its perhaps mandatory?
I had just got used to the fact that M1 pro actually performs better than M3 pro and now this 14 core vs 16 core M3 max is whole another level.
Which macbook is the best for Ableton in your opinion?
Who knows? I have not tested them all, so I cant really answer that. M1 Pro or M2 Pro is a sensible choice right now. At least for Ableton it seems like it has some CPU scheduling issues for the 16Core M3 MAX right now. Maybe Ableton 12 is better?
@@bjornark I don't have a hope for that. I recorded a video about Ableton crashes and how Bitwig doesn't crash at all by also opening an ALS file which Ableton fails to open. I'm on 12 Beta centercode as well and it gave crash too and I deleted it. They released new version maybe tonight I'll download amd check. Some people referred Mac under my last video like it doesn't crash as much as on Windows. I'm on the search. Probably buy a mac and see. And I'm following your videos for long that's why I wanted to ask you but even if I buy M3 Max, I'll have less performance cores than M1 Max and M2 Max right?
No M3 Max have more performance cores. This video is really about the difference of m3 Max 14/16 core. Where the 14 core performs better i ableton in some situations.
@@bjornark as I know,
M1 pro has 8 pc 2 ec
M2 pro has 6 pc 6 ec
M3 pro has 5 pc 6 ec
Isn't the Max version is just doubled version? Or did they do something different w M3 Max?
Many software are not optimized for m3 just yet.
Nah, most are nowadays.
Already tested on both macs 14 and 16 cores, and 16 destroys The 14 cores ( get 180 vs 160 ) 48k 256 buffer
Using my template? Ableton 11 or 12 beta?
@@bjornark yes on 11
Can someone tell what app he is using to visually display performance and efficiency cores?
Sure I can, its "activity monitor". Its built-in in macOS.
@@bjornark Thank you. Been using Activity Monitor for a long time, but only at the surface.
What happen
Thanknyou
Because Ableton Live is based on a shitty architecture. It was made as a performing software originally, not professional audio software. It became a DAW of choice for many people because of its user friendly interface that helps to stay in the creative flow much longer by skipping unnecessary extra steps to get things done compared to other DAWs. If you want maximum performance and stability - use Cubase.
One more thing. Ableton is a big name now in the music industry, so it's very unlikely that they will spend time and money to re-write their code. Just like Universal Audio are selling their 15 years old DSP cards today and people buy them.
I hear a lot of good stuff about cubase, but not sure if I have the energy to change workflows yet again.
What about when you use it for a long time and the computer gets hot etc... cause that's what happing on stage
I have a test showing that in Logic on my channel, fan noise, etc.
Im very happy with my 5950x64GB for daw usage Apple Semes to not be troubleless and extremely expencive.
A solid PC can be all that you need for sure. I just happen to like the Apple ecosystem for these things.
It makes you wonder if this is the reason Ableton 12 is having an earlier than expected release next year.
I would hazard a guess and say it is. Many believed we wouldn’t see 12 till 2025.
I’m still very happy to have my m3 max mbp. Way more powerful than my old intel mbp. Just super paranoid of damaging it though.
Won’t be testing it’s power properly till 12 is released, so these videos have been quite useful.
Its only speculation, but I agree. Someone else said that Ableton wrote in their forums that they are working hard on the apple sillicon issues at the moment.
hello! "Just super paranoid of damaging it though. " in what could someone 'damage' their mbp via using Ableton?
@@drthorpe8602I always write my best songs outdoors… when it’s raining. I spend at least 20 grand a year on laptops for some reason. Think I might buy an umbrella this year… see if that helps.
I dont think you can damage your Mac by using Ableton. Computers have built-in failsafes in terms of overheating. Lets say you have a plugin that bugs and makes the CPU go through the roof. The system would still reduce power to keep the thermals in check. So dont worry about that.
Sarcasm. Something I picked up through life. I know Ableton won’t damage my computer. I was referring to myself accidentally damaging it via beverages or whatnot. Jeez.
I'm hoping Ableton 12 will be better
Yeah, me too.
Is the conclusion of this video that the 14 core Max is better then the 16 core Max
In SOME cases. As it looks now. Otherwise the 16 Core is the best one.
The conclusion is that Ableton is a poorly optimized mess, which isn't news.
That Reddit poster clearly doesn't know what he or she is talking about. "dual-core strategy", confusing clock speed with single-core performance, etc.
Bitwig seems to be the future at this point.
That’s interesting! Shall we be friends?
Ha ha