VRR Flicker On OLEDs Is A Real Problem
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- Though their premium picture quality, high-end feature set, and of course, instantaneous response times are so enticing as is the on-the-box guarantee that it all works as its supposed to… They still flicker. In this video, we’re investigating the issue of VRR flicker on monitors, with a focus on OLEDs. We’ll look at the causes, the effects, and what trade-offs you’ll have to make to try and fix the flick!
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:47 VRR Flicker Causes
01:54 Effects
02:37 VESA standards
04:17 Capturing Flicker (Our Test)
07:59 Trade Off Solutions
10:24 Conclusion
For more details about our testing process, check out our article:
www.rtings.com/monitor/learn/...
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RTings is the only media outlet I trust when it comes to this type of review.
Thanks for watching and for trusting us!
TFTcentral and MonitorsUnboxed are both great.
Hardware Unboxed/Monitors Unboxed, TFT Central, Techless and PC Monitors, also do excellent monitor reviews here on RUclips.
100%
yes they are to trust rest are sponsoring to much things and not saying about problems
This is the kind of work that sets standards. You, people at Rtings, are our heros without the capes. Cheers.
Thank you so much!😄
I concur most strenuously.
@@RTINGScomRD Please can you set the Refresh rate of the OLED Monitors to just 5-10hz below their Max Spec. That is said to fix the flickering issue even with VRR on. Please do test it.
@@RTINGScomRD No joke, RTINGS is *by far* the *best* review site in existence. Nobody else even comes *close* to the level of effort you put into your reviews. You provide so much more in-depth detail than anyone else. I don't make *any* major electronics purchase without consulting your website first. Keep up the amazing work.
@@RTINGScomRD when you will review new samsung g60sd ?
These guys are so far ahead of other media outlets... Also, Abby is doing a great job as the host of the R&D channel.
Ahead and lie that it is Oled issue while they admit later on that even lcd has it. Just because it is not about Oled but about vrr
@@kristof46 autism
@@kristof46 they didn't lie, the purpose of this video was to bring to people's attention that even OLED has drawbacks and one that's not talked about enough.
@@Tectosaurus kidding right? You want to tell me that they discovered flickering in VRR? No they don’t. A lot of people reviewers told about that but it is still vrr issue. When you this kind of title you can think that Oled is a crap while lcd is great. In fact only ips is fine in that case
@@kristof46 you’re taking this video the wrong way, clearly as you’re the only one mad in the comments.
This drove me nuts in Alan Wake 2 on PC on an LG C2. I'm so glad someone finally made a video on this.
Oof, yeah that's the kind of game where you'd really see it a lot, we feel for your pain 😭
Should have just turned it off. It's not necessary on OLED.
Have you tried to limit your VRR HZ Range down to 35-100 hz with the "CRU Toole" ? I had the same Problem on my AW3423dwf, measured the worst from Rtings.
Now its completely Flicker Free. 🤩🥳
@@MrDutch1e It's never necessary. I think I've used V-Sync in like 2 games ever?
I've only seen screen tearing on gaming laptops or during really dramatic frame drops.
@@Methos_ There _are_ people who apparently have a high tolerance for ugliness. You seem to be one of them. Nevertheless, screen tearing exists and is very ugly.
But further, VSync doesn't just eliminate screen tearing, _it eliminates judder,_ as long as your framerate remains at or above your refresh rate. Judder is also a very ugly thing, which is essentially inconsistent frame pacing. Even if you have a framerate cap and you are nominally getting a solid say, 60 fps, you will still likely have ugly inconsistent motion. There are many people who don't even know they aren't getting smooth frame pacing because they've never used VSync, or have never used it while deliberately maintaining a framerate at or above the display's refresh rate.
But _even further,_ the topic here is VRR, not VSync. There is no reason that VSync should cause flicker.
I recently got an OLED monitor and flickering with VRR on was the first thing I noticed. I was shocked that it was an issue that hadn’t shown up in my prior research - searching for it specifically on forums was the only way to get info about it. Thank you for bringing more attention to this!
I dont think very many people use vrr which is probably one reason it wasn't reported much.
@@AndrewK117Probably not which is odd seeing as it's one of the best modern monitor features when it works.
Especially as monitor refresh rates keeps increasing while game requirements also does. So you're limited to lowering refresh rate on a per game basis, using V-Sync or having screen tearing
What monitor do you have? :)
@AndrewK117 This. I don't use VRR and just cap the framerate on my aw3423dwf in Adrenalin on a per game basis depending on what the average fps I get for each game. That way I never see any flickering. I moved from a 60hz ips to ultrawide oled and I will never go back. I don't like using motion blur, but having higher than 120fps without it doesn't feel nice on my eyes (maybe I'm getting too old and too high fps without motion blur give me eye pain/headache)
Quite a few people use VRR, but you need to have a situation where your FPS varies wildly and consistently. This can largely come from pairing a weak CPU on a powerful GPU, or putting some game settings higher than you have VRAM for. If the weak CPU bottlenecks from a scene with a lot of physics effects or other game logic (NPC AI or scripts) running on the CPU, it will cause you to suddenly drop frames, same if your run out of VRAM and the GPU needs to wait to load in data from system RAM. Another cause for consistent fluctuation in FPS can be if the system runs too hot. This will cause CPU and GPU to clock lower. To check if this happening, find out the throttle point of your GPU or CPU and see if those components reach it. If it goes over the throttle point a lot, you'll see clocks dropping a lot too. This will reduce effective performance. If your GPU is just dancing around the throttle point, this can cause GPU clocks shift by 10-100mhz for example.
I'm truly grateful that you've brought attention to this issue because, in my view, it's often overlooked. I've encountered this problem myself with certain VA panels in the past. Since then, I've switched to IPS and haven't experienced it again.
Additionally, I believe that brightness flickering is most noticeable when examining the frame time graph. Even simple actions like opening the inventory in WoW caused brightness flickering for me, despite maintaining a steady 60 FPS throughout.
its often happens on VA because VA are naturally white so it need more time to display black which is also the reason why black smearing happen. Its the other way around on IPS which is naturally black but new IPS tech like IPS Black works like VA(Naturally White)
It's really bad in WoW, yes. In general. And I think it's so bad because of WoW's super inconsistent framerate, especially in combat.
if you are getting flashing at a contact 60, you have a different problem than what this video is talking about.
In brawhalla for instance, changing the character in the menu also causes flicker.
I've emailed Gamers Nexus, LTT, Hardware Unboxed, Optimum Tech, Der8uer, Paul's Hardware, JayzTwoCents and NONE OF THEM covered the issue. Thank you RTINGS for doing more for the community than all those other channels combined.
Please add this flicker test also to TV reviews. And also test TVs with the new methodology of pixel response times. Many thanks!
As someone planning to buy a TV for gaming this would be highly appreciated
I have been using 4k TV's as a computer screen since 2015, several different TV's most of them 55" . I don't think I could ever go back to using a PC "monitor" as a display, it's just WAY less bang for your buck. You get absolutely nothing that a modern 4K or even 8K tv will give you. You actually gain in the fact that you can also watch TV on the thing. I use an LG Oled CS 55", it has VRR, HDR, Free sync technology, dedicated game mode etc. Insanely fast response times and an incredible picture quality and obviously it's much bigger than pretty much all conventional PC monitors out there being that it is a 55". You could argue that the pixel density on a smaller screen at 4K is better but you sit further away from a screen this size so the pixel density looks exactly the same as if you were using a 27" screen sitting right up to it.
And also on the plus side of using a high end TV like this as a monitor, it has a glossy display, none of this matt finish crap all over it which I really can't stand when I have a bright window behind me, the glare is just insane and unuseable, a sharp reflection on a TV screen is pretty much un-noticeable in comparrison, and obviously because it's glossy you get much richer colours and pure blacks.
@@Ruben98RaptoRAs much as I love my QLED TV, sometimes the highlights get a bit wacky looking and they'll fluctuate on brightness. That could just be because I've got the smaller TV which has a VA panel.
@@PixelatedWolf2077is it a Samsung?
I really like how Abby hosts these videos. She is obvious knowledgeable mixed with a bit humor, well done!
This is such an annoying issue with some displays and I'm glad you guys are calling it out. I have two main panels I play games on, one of them hooked to an AMD card with Freesync and the other with an Nvidia card using Gsync. The Freesync on the panel with the AMD card (Samsung Q70R) is near-flawless while the panel using Gsync with the Nvidia card (TCLR648) has that annoying VRR flicker in some games where you can clearly tell the VRR is engaging.
I feel like if a monitor is going to advertise VRR, it ought to be an actual decent implementation of it. Nobody wants to sit there watching the screen constantly flicker in brightness while playing a game.
Fascinating Abby & co, I like the casual way y'all just improve the VESA test!
Since usually people only comment when the opposite is the case, I just wanted to say that you're really good at this presenting thing!
A lot of comments here are saying that
@@mechanicalmonk2020 That's a nice surprise. I'm used to seeing negative comments on RUclips videos in this regard. I'm new here, only watched a couple videos so far, and hadn't come across anyone mentioning it yet!
YOU literally read my mind, I had issue with flicker on my screen and was starting to look for info on how to fight it and Boom a video from Rtings detailing exactly my issue !
Thanks for your work
U guys r the best, no 1 source for peripheral testing
Thank you so much for the kind words! We're always striving to do everything we can to help people 😄
Thank you soooo much for this! VRR flicker drives me crazy on my LG C1, leading me to rarely use VRR in the games that would benefit from it most. Having actual, objective data not only showing that the problem exists (which many deny), but having the ability to actually compare different monitors in this regard is *incredibly* helpful!
Finally a reviewer talks about this! Thanks so much, Rtings!
This is such an important topic, thank you for making this video since this needs more attention.
seriously, you guys are doing the lord's work.
Best place for really thorugh display reviews, over a wide gamut of models. Nice job Abby! Killing it! TY.
looks like Rtings just found out why some OLEDs give people headache, can't believe they do all this and share it with us for free. what a time to be alive!
Thank you very much Rtings.
Rtings is stepping up their game. I was specifically looking for better motion clarity and flicker testing, and to my surprise both of these got addressed. This along with burn in testing - is the royal flush, you guys (and girls) rock!
Haha great timing! Glad to hear we could help 😄
Finally somebody addressed this issue, I am not alone anymore! 😂This flickering is the reason I returned dell g2724d, it drove me nuts. Now I've got lg gp850-b and I am happy it gave good results on your test.
The G2724d has way less flicker than that MSI monitor. Rtings' updated review shows that.
Thank you for shining light on this. Not everyone is aware of this issue with the different panels. Subscribed
I just want to say a huge thankyou! Not only do you do all this research but you make all your data available. This is fantastic. It allowed me to figure out which monitors might be compatible with LCD shutter glasses to view 3d content and I was able to purchase some compatible units. WIthout your data it would have been totally like shooting in the dark.
So glad RTngs is finally addressing this issue. I learned about it long ago, when the LG CX first came out and 4k@120Hz was the hot new shit on the 3090. VRR flicker was an ongoing issue that LG tried to combat with various firmware updates, and after almost a year of back and forth they finally admitted it was a hardware problem with how the displays physically handle modulation at refesh rates below 120hz or 60hz. Basically, they tested the displays at those refresh rate, but not at 90 or 100hz which is were the issue is most widespread especially in dark scenes.
The sad part is, that was basically 4 years ago now -- and the issue seems to still existing on both LG's and Samsung's latest and greatest OLEDs and QD-OLEDs. A hardware fix was supposed to be the solution, but it seems that almost 4 years of updates, and there's been no fix in sight. For me, the issues mostly became less of a concern with the 4090 as that can play most games locked at 120FPS, so you don't run into the issue in nearly as many games.
Hmm... I wonder if that's part of why Valve opted for a non-VRR display for the Steam Deck OLED.
@@Olivia-W Yep absolutely that's why. In fact, the first OLEDs recently came out which address this problem finally! But they're actually only 2x new Samsung panels found in the new 2 new 2024 ASUS ROG zephyrus 14" and 16" laptops, check them out.
How did they fix it? Internal panel clock speed runs at 960hz which is 4x the internal refresh of 240 and 120hz respectively. So these are actually the first OLED panels to have true VRR support with image brightness/flickering issues non existent with VRR enabled! Outside Asus, Razer is also using these 2 panels for their 2024 OLED laptops.
How long until we see this same tech in a consumer TV or LG? Who knows, but it could be awhile down the road.
I'm glad a big outlet is talking about VRR flicker, it really ruins the overall experience.
Yes, and we pay for that experience.
It's nice to see this being talked about. VRR flicker was an unpleasant surprise for me.
Its insane that I first encountered this issue on my G9 last night and you guys uploaded this around the same time
You guys didn't identify the actual source of the vrr flicker: that the gamme curve depends on the presented refresh rate. Measure the gamma curve at different fixed present vrr frame rates. Eg, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120 fps. You will find the lower the vrr, the more broken the gamma (raised dark levels) and as you approach 120fps(or the monitors native refreshing rate) , the gamma will approach the correct curve. I believe this is a solvable problem (by manufacturers in future models) and it would help if you guys devled in this this more. :)
The second cause of vrr flicker is some system / hdmi / game / driver level frame rate vrr rate desynchronization that seems to happen on some game engines and vrr monitors. You see it when the vrr displays 240hz for a split second then drops down to the correct frame rate, when in fact the game never presented a 240hz frame. The funny thing is, the flicker you see in this scenario is the actual correct gamma.
Interesting. Why does the gamma curve need to depend on the refresh rate though? Is this related to the TFT layer?
@@FiveFiveZeroTwo Yes, has to be related to the tft. Dark levens raise when the panel is refreshed at a slower rate. One solution is to have an internal fixed tft refresh rate, like Asus did on one of their recent laptops. Use of a really high rate fixed rate like 1000hz won't be much detriment to vrr, at most 0.5 ms error vrr waiting for the next refresh
Rtings is the only type of mainstream media outlet I can trust nowadays not just because of their good quality reviews but because of the fact that THEY LISTEN. They listen to feedback, good or bad AND IMPROVE. They don't think they're perfect because nobody is, and because of that, they have my respect and trust.
Thanks for this video and hope you guys continue improving!
Very very well done. Much appreciated and love seeing this kind of ground work being done in a much needed area.
Thank you for bringing it up! I'm in the third generation of my "premium" VRR capable gaming monitors (Acer predator, Asus ROG, now LG Ultragear) and all flickered like crazy. I totally gave up on VRR by now, unusable. The worst thing is the better your monitor, the worse the flicker is. If you have a low end monitor or TV with a 40-60Hz VRR range, you are totally fine. But if you have an LFC capable monitor with a high enough VRR range, then the amplitude of the flicker goes over the roof as soon as the refresh rate starts swinging between for example 40 and 78 Hz. A very simple solution would be just simply disable LFC so it never happens, but I didn't find any way to do it. My other solution to mitigate the issue is a very high refresh rate monitor and v-sync. eg a 240Hz monitor is sending a v-sync signal that is compatible with 240, 120, 80, 60, 48, 40, ~34, etc frame rates, so even slight drops below the target fps won't result in very noticeable stutter.
I'm glad to see some attention brought to this.
As I understand it, the underlying issue is that the gamma curve changes with refresh rate - so unstable/sudden frame-time changes can result in flicker.
I would generally look at CPU upgrades to help minimize this, more than a GPU upgrade.
Perhaps measuring display gamma at different refresh rates and overlaying the results would give a better picture of what is actually going on with the display than flipping between 10 FPS and max refresh rate.
But it's great to see any kind of metric we can use to judge how different displays compare against one another.
There is no reason that gamma (or brightness) should be affected by framerate, though.
@@bricaaron3978Monitor brightness changes with refresh rate, that’s why this happens
@@cjack2355 I said there is no reason --- I should have said no _legitimate_ reason --- that brightness should be affected by framrate.
I was going to pick up a new OLED monitor later this year, but now you've convinced me to wait.
Bruh… it’s a VRR issue not a oled issue…
It is an oled issue. Many good ips displays do not have this issue.
Every single woled does though@@yanooo2007
I won’t get another screen without proper VRR ever again. It’s just too good. I downgraded from a 42 inch 4k to a 27inch 1440p, just because of stable VRR.
@@yanooo2007 It's OLED problem using VRR if you want working VRR and OLED in one package there is not a single model on the market.
I just dont use vrr
You need more subs!! People need to know your fantastic work!!
Thank you for your attention about VRR issue.
This flickering happened to me multiple times while playing red dead redemption 2 at night (in game), I though it was my GPU acting up, never thought it was the monitor (VA),
thank you for bringing this up
It's technically the monitor, but it's also how the system is sending the frames to the monitor-- flicker comes from wide, sudden swings in FPS. I made another comment here with some advice (please let me know if you can't find it), but the main thing you wanna try is setting a frame cap. Good luck!
Do all OLED monitors have it?
@@notaras1985 technically, yes, as it's currently a limitation within the technology of oled panels.
@@richardwilliams877also LCD panels suffer from it. It’s a problem of variable voltage being fed to panels with variable refresh rate. On LCD panels is less noticeable but still happens…
@@richardwilliams877 It's monitors problem only. VRR was designed specifically for swinging and changing framerate/frametime if it can't take do that it is defective or should not use VRR function and marketing at all.
I can’t “like” this video enough! Thank you for highlighting this issue! I hope it lights a fire under these monitor manufacturers butts to fix this problem. I have the 32” 4k DELL Qd-OLED and the VRR flicker is really bad. I have gsync turned off in a lot of games 😢
and turning it off doas solve it 100%?
Great video. Thank you for the countless hours of testing!
Amazing video. I can't believe it has taken this long for a channel to make a video on this topic as solid as this is.
This video is both technical and funny as hell. Great work 😄
1:14 Some OLED panels do actually use PWM for brightness control - it's quite common in smartphones. Unlike LCD, only non-100% brightness areas will have visible PWM flicker instead of the whole panel, and it's typically most severe at very low per-pixel brightness levels. Some may even allow changing between DC and PWM dimming modes, but those tend to exhibit severe black crush in DC mode.
If the problem with shadow detail / black crush can be solved by using PWM, I can't imagine why all OLED displays aren't using it. My LG OLED55B7A not only has poor near-black performance, but also has a nasty greenish tint that ruins dark/night scenes.
@@bricaaron3978 It would be best if they could combine both, first dimm the pixel with DC to a value where it is still linear and then dimm the rest of the way with as fast as possible PWM.
That way the flicker wouldnt be as noticeable as when it would just use PWM from full brightness while it still provides great black performance.
I can notice flicker a lot more than other people, so I noticed the flicker in a smartphone that had an OLED screen.
Its also why I would never enable strobing blacklights to achieve less motion blur.
@@Heimbasteln *" It would be best if they could combine both, first dimm the pixel with DC to a value where it is still linear and then dimm the rest of the way with as fast as possible PWM."*
Yes, I agree. Do you have an LG OLED display?
@@bricaaron3978your LG uses an old panel type which suffered this type of issues
@@or1on89 That's reassuring. I was hoping that when I buy a new LG display it would not suffer from some of the issues of my OLED55B7A.
Nevertheless, there are a number of problems that OLED display manufacturers have chosen not to tackle, such as Sample-and-Hold-induced ETMB and near-black / shadow detail performance.
a joy to watch, these videos and tests are so good
Bought my Odyssey G7 from your guy's link because of informed videos like this yo support a while back. Couldn't be happier!
Absolutely love what you guys are doing.
Thank you! 😄
Thx for the hard work. Love your voice :D
Thanks for watching! 😄
Great video and a nice addition to your test suite!
Thank you! This has been driving me nuts.
It's the final nail in the coffin for me. Having increased risk of burn in was already bad enough. The fact that VRR is compromised on oled just ruins it for me.
Yes there are workarounds, but those are not really workarounds but more like compromises.
-Making sure you aren't having a huge framerate delta [ruins the convenience of VRR in the first place].
-Lowering the VRR range [with LFC it will work to some extent, but it's gonna cause microstuttering].
-Disabling VRR [should this even be considered as solution?]
Buys vrr screen
cant use vrr cuz flicker
forced to turn of vrr
*POS PURCHASE*
That's why I'm staying on IPS. Yes there are drawbacks too, but I'd rather get stable VRR, no burn-in and still pretty good colour accuracy overall than all the drawbacks coming from OLED. + Not having to spend another $800+ for a monitor that will flicker.
No VRR is just out of question, like is this 2005 again?
@@Antipika Exactly. These are just expensive monitors with compromised VRR and short lifespan.
The motion clarity of oled was really appealing but the drawbacks simply aren't worth it, for me.
This woman is the hero we needed.
*Heroine. She's female not male.
@@eriklarsson3188I was just going for that pun too
She's a great host, but let's not forget all the people doing the tests and coming up with the metodology behind them.
@@LooneyTo0n Great *hostess for sure.
I really enjoyed how she presented this. Awesome job!
Great video! I rely on your sterling review quality rtings!!! Also this video was filled with great humour too - Abby's face when experiencing technical woes is exactly how that moment feels lol
I've gone throught a C9, C1, and now a G2 and have never noticed this. I'm not pretending I have a magic oled that doesn't do it, I'm just super thankful that somehow even now I never ever see this.
Interesting! I have C1 and C2 and they both flicker to the point where g-sync is completely unusable. G-sync might as well not be an option in my case as the flicker is 10x more noticeable and distracting than any tearing or badly paced frames might be
@@lethalrave4621What CPU and GPU do you have? Also what games do you play?
I play Helldivers, Kingdom Come Deliverance, Red Dead Redemption 2, Cyberpunk 2077, Bannerlord, and few others.
My rig is a R7 5800x with a 4090 and previous a 3700x and a 3080
@@lethalrave4621I have a really sensitive eye for tearing and shader stutter. It really could be that I’m playing certain games with little FPS variance. I did see that obvious flickering in Cyberpunk and I have 130 hours in that game. Never once noticed VRR flicker. I admit I’m hesitant to look for it now as if I notice it I’ll never stop noticing it lol
@@copperypuddle3858 Don't look for it, it will ruin your gaming experience! I hate it. My specs are 3900x and a 4070 ti, the flickers also happen on another PC that I have. All games that have any stutters will induce strong flickers anytime they stutter. Some games can flicker continuously in dark scenes likely caused by bad optimization and bad frame pacing. Interestingly enough, in super rare cases I can get this continuous dark scene flicker even with perfect steady framerate while having no frametime issues or drops. But generally the more framerate issues a game has the more terrible it is! Example games: RDR2 (flicker in some dark scenes and via rare stutters) Cyberpunk (Used to have horrible dark scene flickers but maybe due to a patch or something is way better now, now mostly only flickers during stutters which are rare) Starfield (big fat stutter flickers that happen often, and continuous dark scene flicker) Dead Space (Stuttefest flicker disco but no continuous dark scene flicker)
As a fellow 4090 owner, that's why you don't notice it. The GPU just powers through everything and achieving high framerates at 4K and maxing out these 120hz displays is not a very difficult task. I rarely notice flicker, sometimes during loading screens or when dark games stutter but I'd say 98% of my gaming experience is flicker free, thanks to my rig. I do have the new MSI MPG 321URX on backorder tho and it being 240hz will 100% introduce more flickering opportunities, even with a 4090 this is completely unachievable in 99% of recent games so FPS caps will have to be introduced lol.
THANK YOU for investigating this. It’s a HUGE ISSUE that hardly anyone talks about! I finished Alan Wake 2 on my LG C2 and the flicker absolutely ruined the experience.
Thank you for making this helpful video and providing the data on your website. I've gone through more than a dozen monitors over the last several years due to VRR flicker. Your testing revealing that the issue is more problematic on VA and OLED panels vs IPS lines up perfectly with my experience. I don't understand why this issue is rarely covered by reviewers or how Nvidia and AMD have been certifying monitors like this.
I have the same problem with my OLED but still in VRR 120z when I go to 60z the flicker disappears.
Also one of the solutions can be to extend the low threshold of your VRR range with 3rd party softwares like CRU, I noticed VRR flicker is mostly visible when low framerate compensation kicks in.
Yes, mostly, but most games have stutters to less than 10 frames even if averages are 60+, and these stutters can't be fixed even with 4090, 7800x3d and gen4 nvmes and it will flicker no matter what, I experimented for weeks with my VA and all kind of frame caps, CRU and so on. After all this will need to go back to IPS.
@@PREDATEURLT I'm curious, what are the games in question?
@@deus_nsf One of the games is snowrunner, cant get 30s without flicker, second is skyrim. And there are a lot of games that have tiny stutters to very low frames (even if for only 0.1s) VRR picks it and flickers, if not flicker you would not even have how short of a stutter it was.
@@PREDATEURLT I wonder, can the LFC feature for VRR be completely disabled? So it just holds the refreshrate and introduce tearing in case of stutters? I guess it's possible, if you put your VRR low threshold just above max refreshrate /2, give it a shot I'm curious! Maybe you'll need to play with Vsync a little bit too.
@@deus_nsf It can be done, but on monitor that is 240Hz you have to use 121hz at least, so everything below 120FPS will have tearing and that's where it is most important not to have them, unless GPU drivers will force to hold at original 48Hz with tearing, that would only tear everything bellow 48FPS, but it is still not a fix people would want on monitors that costs 1000$+ and blab about freesync premium and gsync certified functionality.
Thank you so much for improving the customer experience when analyzing displays for purchase.
I will never forget back in 2006 when my father purchased a new 'LED' monitor! How great they were!
Well the first gen LG model was $600. And it had a latency that basically made me start losing video games. I was playing counter strike at the time, and went from a CRT with virtually no latency (and one of those fancy high hz ones) to one that basically had like a 100+ ms latency.
Since then I was always scared to buy a new monitor technology. Had to do hours and hours of research and dig through all the garbage.
I bought a GL850 and a LG C1 and have loved them.
Please keep innovating on the benchmarking space. Giving us the customer a better view into what we are actually getting.
Hope you stay committed to fair and honest reviews as well.
Amazing video, you guys are definitely at the forefront of Monitor (and other devices) testing! Thank you for highlighting these realistic issues (that other reviewers don't seem to bring up), being able to create standards for testing and updating your testing methodology accordingly especially in such a short turn around.
Thank you for all the kind words! We do our best to continue finding ways to test every facet of a product that people might care about or need to know! 💪
I am hugely thankful for this video, for bringing this issue to (flickering) light, but I also disagree on some points:
- The title is misleading. The video gets there later, but VA is waaay worse for flicker than OLED. My Samsung Q80T is obnoxious for flicker and I am considering getting an OLED simply to lower the flicker, as it cannot be worse than this.
- Buying a better GPU is actually the opposite of what you should be doing. GPU bound gameplay is way more stable than CPU bound gameplay. What you actually want is being 100% GPU bound, rock solid 100%. I have a RTX 3060 + Ryzen 4800h laptop hooked to my TV and the poor single core performance of my Ryzen CPU is a way bigger culprit than my GPU.
So upgrade your CPU, not GPU.
The point is not to be GPU or CPU bound. You limit your FPS so you have headroom in both directions and the FPS counter doesn't move.
@@Phil_529 Doesn't work for me. Tried Special K and RTSS. If the GPU isn't 100% I experience flicker. For example in Mass Effect LE with a cap at 117fps and actual FPS way above it I still experience flicker. Simply because FPS ! = HZ. I can observe my refresh rate going over 117hz in my TV display as there is no rock solid way to marry FPS and HZ, best is to be 100% GPU bound.
@@charno_zhyem Right but this is a video about OLEDs. You can go watch "LG CX & C9 Unlikely to Get Fix for VRR Gamma Issue Caused by OLED Panel" by HDTV Test if you want. OLEDs are optimized for a certain static refresh rate and getting as close to that number as possible will alleviate the flicker. Being GPU bound really doesn't matter.
@@charno_zhyem No offense but this video is about OLEDs which are inherently different from VA panels. Look up LG CX & C9 Unlikely to Get Fix for VRR Gamma Issue Caused by OLED Panel if you want to learn more. Being GPU bound really is irrelevant.
Lol just no that doesn't make sense, in your instance it does because you have a very very slow cpu paired with a fast gpu. So yes YOU should upgrade your cpu... But most games ARE GPU bound, meaning most games entirely depend on what GPU you have, and not what CPU you have. Most games use 4 cores some very new ones can use 6, that's about it. As long as you have a semi new, strong-single core performance cpu, even like a i3 12100k ($100) will do the job for just about all games. You talk about being 100% gpu bound but your setup is 100% CPU bound lmao... So all around upgrade your GPU, not your CPU.. For UR case upgrade the $30 CPU and not the $300 GPU... yeah?
The biggest problem is that poeple don't notice it. People won't see the difference between gsync on or off, won't see flicker. A huge part of the community is legit blind.
thank you for explaining the new measurements
quality of this material is outstanding, congrats!
I get crazy eye irritation with OLED. A little less with WOLED, but it's still an issue at monitor distances.
Regardless of my sensitivity, I still preferred miniLED for HDR.
If my FPS fluctuated that much 1:29, VRR flicker would be the least of my problems :)
There are actually games that have such an unstable framerate (not many though). There are also games that have a very unstable framerate cap, better to use Rivatuner for that.
@@003Jetfire I know I was messing around.
@@inceptionsd Yeah I figured your comment was sarcarstic after they explicitly explained it was intentional.
I happens often when fps are on edge of LFC range
Oh god, this was driving me crazy and I couldn't find any publication talking about it! Just a bunch of Reddit posts. Happy to see this incorporated into the RTINGS testing, and hopefully it helps create some pressure for display manufacturers to shape up!
Thanks rtings. Appreciate your R&D.
My LG C2 does this. I thought it was an AMD issue (7900 XTX). The flicker is quite noticeable in dark scenes. Extremely annoying and ruins immersion.
It can never be the gpu. The gpu can not alter how the display functions, at least not at a level that can cause flickering.
Cap your frame rate low enough so that the lowest frame rate you are seeing isn’t all that much lower than the cap you put in place. For example if usually you are seeing say 60fps most of the time and sometimes it’s dipping down to 45-50ish but if it’s a really lite scene you fps may go up to 110. Putting a cap at say 70 fps would help to limit the maximum swing you see and should reduce the flicker you see or eliminate it completely depending on the cap you choose and the max variance dip below that cap you experience.
I have never noticed this on my LG C2 with a 4090. Can you tell me what game and area I can use to test?
@@jjlw2378Yeah, OP should share which games is causing it.
FFFFFFFFUCKING FINALLY someone mentioned it. It's NOT an OLED-specific problem. I had an asus xg32vq with horrible flickering. (i posted a link in your other vid)
Been using the website for years. Great work!
Very detailed video! Thank you for this informative video!
"… Just for funzies." Classic. Another winning video presentation by Abby.
imagine buying a $1000 monitor and having flickering... what a joke
Word.
Imagine being the leading bs artist on the streets. I guess that's LG.
Indeed it is the sad reality and i experienced it first hand.
this is how technology works.
It's great to learn more about this topic, thanks!!
I haven't noticed any flickering with the Alienware 32" OLED and I've been gaming on it solid for 6 months now.
It hasn't been out for six months but I have noticed some minor flicker.
@@veilmontTVpossibly referring to the 34 ultra wide. I have the aw3423dwf and have only noticed flicker once or twice in the 4 months I've owned it.
I noticed in my C1 that i used before not in my Alienware.
Did you watch the video? Flickering is only a problem when you're running a game with really inconsistent performance. If you play nothing but esports games or well optimized single player games you will never experience vrr flicker.
Yeah there’s flicker it just depends on the game. Some games are flicker free, some are not.
While you are demonstrating a real problem, you are not test VRR. 10 FPS is not a VRR value. All monitors have a FPS floor were VRR will disengage. I have not seen a monitor with a VRR floor below 40, through that does not mean there is not one. Once below the VRR floor the Low Frame Compensateor will kick in and that is most likely what is causing the flicker. If you want this test to be meaningful about VRR then you need to incorporate the VRR floor of your monitor. Lastly if someone buys a monitor for VRR they should always be running a Frame Cap. Set the cap a few frames below the max frame rate. This will insure that if you play older games that can go above your monitors frame rate VRR will remain active. Pushing 300 fps on a 280hz monitor is not VRR.
Yeah this is true, my 144hz monitor has a VRR range of 40-144 or 48-144 depending on if you use DP or HDMI. So having it behave correctly outside that range would be odd if anything.
I agree I think it’s unexpected for VRR to be engaged below 60 FPS
Abby still nailing the entire video as always. VRR rarely seems to work in general for me regardless of tv.
Thank you for this video. Extremely annoying issue. I bought my AOC OLED in December 2023 and it took me only a few days to identify the issue, the cause and potential resolutions (in line with this video). Unfortunately, this was not discussed in ANY review I could find prior to buying the monitor even though it's an obvious issue. I think this is the first time somebody made a solid video about the problem.
Yeah all VA and OLED flicker and there is barely any information in some reddit forums or YT videos, for me working VRR is more important than nice blacks, HDR or even nice colors, it rips my eyes apart tearing and flicker.
Please roast DELL for lying and blaming the GPU, cable, games, Windows, etc and hiding the fact that their S3422DWG ultrawide VA monitor is flickering terribly in dark areas when VRR drops below 60Hz. They dismissed my warranty claim as being unjustified.
oled is garbage
You are.
@@ACFUN34 why? He's spitting facts. It's a tech that can't do VRR, it has risks of burn ins [even faster burnin than CRT monitors].
Love this from RTINGS!
Yes, thank you, finally someone bringing more attention to this, the VRR flicker is real and super annoying - and hardly no reviewer mentions this!!!
Thanks for your hard work. Other reviewers only mentioned how beautiful oled monitors were and never mentioned their intrinsic problems. They are not real reviewers, but just some paid advertisers
Finally someone from big reviewer flshed this problem. Thank, you.
Keep up the great work RTINGS!
Finally a media that address this issue. Thanks RT! I had to return Neo G7 after upgrading to 7800x3d and 4080 did not help. Some games just experience microstutters no matter what... It's anoying even on loading screens. Had to settle for IPS in the end.
Thanks for shedding light on this. Let me give you my own experience. I own a 65” C2 and sometimes will get flickering using a series x but playing the same game on my pc using the same tv, no flicker. In some instances, a game on XSX will flicker when settings are set to 120hz but it vanishes when set to 60hz.
I can’t agree that flicker is caused by inconsistent framerates as I don’t get flicker in the scenario I described above.
not in the market for a new monitor at all right now, but i loved how thorough the testing was. this kind of work is really fascinating, i'll be subscribed for more :]
Excellent work, this is YEARS overdue. I gave up on VRR with my Sony A80J pretty quickly. It only worked half the time, had tons of limitations, and I gave up hope a firmware/PC Driver update would resolve the strobing and connectivity issues long ago. Still haven't seen a recent TV/Monitor handle VRR better than G-Sync IPS/VA displays from 5+ years ago, hideous unreliability of the early frame pacing hardware aside.
This was very insightful. You guys rock!
Really good presentation by the host, to the point and non-distracting. Also, good on RTINGS for bringing topics like these up when others will not. Navigating the tech world isn't as simple as trusting one channel's opinions anymore. Hope more topics like these would be covered in the future. Thanks.
I laughed. I learned. Very well done video - and thank you for adding this data to your reviews!!
Love your work at RTINGS. Please keep it up!
The framerate instability here is quite severe. Is this a huge problem with more realistic frame rate fluctuations?
holy crap, finally someone major is addressing this
i’ve been gaslit for ages on this
on that exact samsung model no less, holy crap
This is the Samsung scanlines fiasco all over again.
Thank you so much for covering this! It's about damn time somebody did. Sadly, it's too late for me. I'm out a grand because nobody would freaking talk about this, and I had to learn the hard way how unbelievably bad OLED's look with VRR.
This channel both gives me enough info to be glib for half a second about not buying OLED, but also enough information to understand why every other panel tech is likely to be flawed in some way as well, so I can stop feeling glib again. Thanks for all the thorough research! Keep going where the facts point! There is too much hype in the tech world, we need all the prudent application of the scientific method we can get!
Get IPS, no flicker. "Worse" contrast until you tune it
Great job Rtings!
Oh my, i got recommended a good channel. This channel will definitely help me.
Absolutely nailed it. Well done video.
Thank you. Almost all reviewers are just reading off the spec sheet.