Hemi flame propagation is normally not very good so they need a LOT more timing lead than a wedge motor and such a huge motor might not play nice with a single spark plug. Aircraft motors are about the same size cylinder and they use dual spark plugs to lessen the timing lead needed to get the fire all the way across the piston. When I first saw the combustion chambers on the Big Black Hemi I was surprised it didn't have dual plugs and think it would run better lighting the fire in two places vs the one it's using now. O2 sensors don't read right if the fuel being injected doesn't burn...so you can be super fat yet the sensors will show lean. It's blowing black smoke which means it's not burning the fuel...and this shows on the plugs.
They use dual plugs, for a safety. They also have dual ignitions. BUT not used at same time. It’s in case 1st ignition failure. The second one can be used.
@@metalted6128 During run-up you always do a 'mag check' where you kill one mag and then the other and you're looking for an rpm drop if they're working right. Redundancy was a side benefit of the dual plugs and magneto's....the flame propagation is SO slow across the huge piston that at aircraft engine speeds you need to light it in two places to get it all burned in time for proper piston position.
Steve for grounding high frequency noise, you should use a flat braided cable, not regular wire like you used in the video. The "Z" which is impedance in Ohms is to high on regular wire to ground noise due to skin effect. Braided cable has more surface area and lower Z at high frequency. This is why the auto manufacturers use flat braided cable between the body and the engine on modern vehicles. It would be wise to do this in your wagon also. Another way of saying it, not all ground wires are created equal.
1000 HP naturally aspirated at low RPM with a Cam designed for boosted applications and Pump gas and he's disappointed. Steve Morris problems' That things gonna be beastly.
Just love it, the things you learn from watching a Steve Morris video. Nobody else does the detail of problems and solutions as much as the SM channel.
I like the fact that he doesn't try to hide stuff either. He shows the full struggle, including the rare occasion when he makes a mistake. Regardless, this is not a mechanic or a technician. The stuff he does is nothing short of engineering IMHO
You could tell in Steve’s voice how happy and passionate he is about his wagon. It’s fantastic. The BBH is a humongous beast and a unique critter. Let’s see what happens now when the Biggest charger goes on it Support from 🇦🇺🇦🇺
I had a customer that had ground issues and it created an intermittent misfire and a cam signal loss and it did all sorts of crazy things. He was on a motec ECU turned out. Somebody installed an oil cooler in the fender well and there was a junction harness it had about six grounds for the ECU, and they put it on a rubber Gromit. Chasing electrical problems can be a nightmare
As a harness designer and builder mainly Motec systems your example is the type of stuff that gives me nightmares. Pretty hard to fly to a site and troubleshoot an issue that was "self induced" by the tech who made an install error and charge customer for such accordingly. That said the amount of mental effort SM puts into his creations is mind boggling. We tend to relate to such as "science projects". Differences in grounding potentials can cause disasters and lord knows how that boat is wired.
I’ve been in manufacturing maintenance for 30 years. Trouble shooting, finding the simplest failure, is so frustrating at times. I always start with the simplest thing first. Even more so with a one off motor. Great job SME!! Many times my brain hurts thinking about why!! I feel your pain, Steve!!
Steve, I don’t even attempt to claim one tenth of your engine building/tuning knowledge. However, I will say this… Welcome to the world of Hemi tuning. I was always a big block Chevy guy turned Hemi guy and what we learned is that the cross flow is so much greater in a Hemi that you throw out most of what you know about tuning wedge engines. Generally if a Hemi doesn’t look like a coal furnace it is either down on power or nibbling on parts. Just what we have seen in our experience. Good luck
What I mean is that it really needs to be A LOT richer than you think. If the plugs don’t look sooty on gas or way over fueled on alky they are typically not happy
@@k20edef1 That’s a very loaded question as every combination will want something different to be happy, but what I would tell you is that I would absolutely start very fat and slowly work towards leaning it out with very small steps. When it stops making large gains definitely stop. But we have a gear jammers car with a 13.5:1 528 Hemi and it’s perfectly happy in the low 11’s on afr or where you would typically run a boosted wedge. It is however on Q16 an oxigenated fuel so that probably affects it a little bit as well.
Actually the winner's guess was closer than you said. He guessed 1, 045 and the actual was 1,044.7; so he only missed by .3 HP, not 1 full HP. That's a pretty &%$# GOOD guess...!! Congrats!
Hi Steve, you said you read the comments. I hope my input is helpfull. I am probably not about to say anything you dont already know. But with good intentions. I see no downside to throw out some thoughts. Honestly so many things came to mind watching I wish I could have afforded to fly down and have a look in person. Looked like TPS was moving on the logs. If so was AE being excited on and off blasting fuel shots causing the A/F spikes your seeing? It would also explain the black plugs. AE roc blanking might have to be turned up to filter out tps scatter. But also on the dyno I would reccomend shutting all the AE modifiers off. You dont need tip in on the dyno anyway. Next. Did you try it in open loop? If the O2 sample rate is too high or any anomally is giving false O2 readings. You will be able to see the issue go away in open loop. What is the O2 speed setting at? Grounding is important. But all those grounds can cause ground loops further agrivating things. Especially if any AC ripple is present from things like example: electric water or fuel pumps or battery charging devices, secondary ignition leaks etc. Why would you throw the boost to it when it has a running issue that at the least is fuel foulling plugs. Something is unhappy and needs fixing before you crank boost into the poor thing. Throw a carb on it if need be to be sure it is not a valvetrain annomally? The shutting off thing was scary. If thats from fuel that needs to be looked at before adding boost imo. Point the timing light toward you and tape the trigger down. Watch it during the run and if the engine misses or shuts off again you will see the light flash interupt. The BSAC and The BSFC are going to give clues here if valve motion is interupted. If only bsfc is wooobly. And bsac stays smooth. Then its likely valve control has been maintained. Again. I am sure you already are all over this and more. But it never hurts to reach out and share some thoughts. Thanks for your videos. Very entertaining for a used old man like me. Cheers!
Been looking forward to the paint reveal since this rebuild started. Wraps are nice, and definitely have their place, but for nice custom stuff like this the old custom painter's saying applies: "If it ain't paint, it ain't schitt"
Wild to see an engine making 1000hp reliably, and have it be not happy, but that’s cause Steve does wild stuff! Very cool to watch the stuff this shop accomplishes!
The fact that you are having to work hard to get the best performance out of the engine makes for a great video. I am sorry you had to suffer through it to make us this video. One thing is certain, you can definitely hear when it's happier on a pull.
a "dark mode" on the software onscreen would be so so pretty imo 2288hp ;) my guesstimate for why it stalls out because of the amount of air is too little, since she soots like a diesel when letting go at high rpm she must be rich. meaning too little air. sometimes one has so much knowledge about a thing that one forgets the simplest things. like when you make a perfect solderjoint the gorram shrink is on the table when you triumphantly smile:)
With the coil leads, I do recall a problem with a different engine where someone changed their spark-plug brand and started to have problems - turned out they were just that much shorter that there wasn't a direct connection but there was enough voltage to jump that gap and the gap at the tip, until the cylinder pressures built up and there was insufficient voltage for reliable ignition. You mentioned earlier that a mis-fire does look like a lean AFR/lambda, so later with the "20:1" it'd underline it being an ignition issue, especially if otherwise it seemed to be a "rich" mixture.
If you have EMI/EMF noise issues it’s probably best to run dual shielded cables with drains to all your sensors and ignition wires rather then just regular wire. You can also add ferrites to the wires to collect an other EMI / EMF. It can definitely give you cause readings. Proper grounding methods are important but just adding multiple random grounds won’t do much. You can actually create a ground loop.
Those big motors should have a pre combustion chamber super rich to get the flame travel going. Would of course have to redesign the head. Definitely needs two plugs a hole.
With EFI the fuel is typically squirted onto the back of the valve while it is closed so that it is the first thing in the chamber when the valve opens for the best mixing of the air and fuel. During overlap some air and fuel is pulled out thru the exhaust and on a hemi the valves are in a straight line so that initial bit of charge pulled out the exhaust is very rich and the mixture trapped in the chamber ends up much leaner as a result of its fuel being pulled out of the chamber during overlap. When this happens your AF ratio measured in the exhaust is the average of the rich and lean charges and all this changes what the engine actually needs and certain combos at certain rpm and throttle angles really screws with the tune that it actually wants and for example 12.5 might work best at a certain rpm/ throttle opening but a different rpm might want a totally different average ratio because a different amount of rich/ lean mix is actually captured in the cylinder. This is actually the biggest reason hemi engines tend to like wide LSA cams, it is also why EFI engines tend to work better with wider LSA cams because this effect still happens in a wedge but not as pronounced.
It seems to me not enough spark for the airflow. Or not enough airflow for a proper mixture for a clean burn. You know Steve, put the boost to it and it will be normal. It will run like it should. That’s why it was designed this way, if NA you would have to add a spark plug or change the location of the spark plug and injector. I love what your doing and I can’t wait to see the next one!
So I just bought a SM shirt, but I've got to say its pretty consistent across youtube that NONE of you guys have a Pocket Tee! I gonna take my money to the store that has one. Been diggin your videos Steve ,keep up the Good work!
Watching everything you do is fascinating, steve. But I'll happily stick to my sbc's with distributors and carburetors. This level of tuning/troubleshooting you're doing and the headaches that come with it would melt my brain
When they made don garlic run the hemi he hated it he cranked the timing to it to blow it up so he could go back to his old combo and it finally come alive
It was the 426 Hemi that Garlits tried to blow up because he couldn’t get it to run as fast as his tried and true 392 Hemi. The larger bore of the 426 needed more lead vs the 392 to get everything in the chamber to burn.
Are the water cooled headers somehow effecting the air fuel reading? There are three things out of the normal for this dyno run. Big cubic inch, anodizing, and water cooled headers. Tthe cubic inch with the small cam can be some of the problem. I think you fiixed the grounding problem. Maybe it's the headers.
I have built 40 some engines in my life, and not once have I had any issue with bank angle. Granted, they were in-line engines, but still... Thanks for teaching me something!
I haven't seen anyone comment that you made 2 #15 pulls, it is just mind boggling to me what all goes into turning these high end motor's but if I ever have one built it will be one of your's.
I kept looking at the AF ratio number ( middle bottom number on left screen and it seemed like it was hitting high13s on the lower power runs and high 12s low 13s on the higher power runs. I thought NA is way lean under load at high 13s? Glad you got it figured out. i think your right the cam is the limiting factor after rulling out all the grounding and ignition possibilities.
Thank you for making this video ... I just did a turbo engine on the dyno with no turbo that came up a little short on power ... Ran sweet ... didn't care about timing change or fuel change ... Just kept repeating over and over ... Plugs read oddly ... Everything was great but just 50 to 60 hp low ... Finally told the guy that it is what it is and it will make what he wants easy on boost and engine was smooth as silk and no problems .... He was happy I felt like i had failed .... I feel your frustration but happy i am not alone .... Really want to see the video on daves LS as he is a local guy i know
I bet, even if it isn't related to your current dyno fight, well thought out grounding to a single point (vs. daisy chain) could be something that is worth doing for the end user. I never thought about an anodized engine and the issues related, but sensors are so sensitive that intermittant/unreliable ground potential can be a nightmare. One of your coolest videos to date - and that's saying a lot. I bleepin' love the spark plug holder. Give whoever came up with that idea a raise and bonus! When gray comes back in stock, I will be a customer!!!!!
Well one thing for sure this video series has shown the problems encountered with one off custom engines. Also the most surprising to me was the impact low compression has on overall power output. N/A I would have guessed another 180 hp more than it made.
I think this is a ground problem, electrical system isn’t happy. I would make sure that everything is grounded. You might even need to run a large separate ground from the battery and run all of the grounds to it instead of relying on the block.
I watched this whole thing waiting for the wagon pain 😂😂😂, still a cool video but man Steve got me, just have to wait till Tuesday to see it, something to look forward to
At 53:45 you can see part of it. The wood grain on the passenger side bottom is creating quite a large shadow making it look really thick there, but that could be the angle of the lighting!
I work a distribution warehouse that carry like car vinyl. And we move a lot of vinyl from 3M and a couple other huge vinyl companies and we have wood grain vinyl that would blow your mind we even carry real carbon fiber vinyl. I could get you a sample mailed out for couple different wood ones
Dealt with a lot of hard anodizing over the years and it is typically goo for insulating about 600 V per .001 of thickness. We typically anodized all our parts to .002 thick, which usually equated to .0015 deep and .0015 added on.
Steve a buddy i know installed anodized alternator brackets he also installed brand new alternator. It wouldn't charge he would take it back off have it tested it worked no problem reinstall no charge. Ended up being no ground had to sand a few contact spots to remedy. Heck those heads may not be grounded good to the block if the entire cylinder head is coated in that anodize..
There appears to be a Electronic ignition issue Steve Morris. Ignition Dwell coil saturation time. Controlled by FET Transistors. Its best checked by Vintage Auto Oscilloscopes. Or by an Electronic Technician Engineer Grade Storage Oscilloscope. No way to use a Magneto ignition with EFI Full control. I prefer Magneto ignitions myself simple and reliable. Magnetos have Double The Burn time in crank degrees measured Vs any Electronic ignition CD or Coil on plug. All Magnetos generate AC Current Vs DC Current with all battery ignitions. Also have Slew Rates changes with all electronic ignitions. Magnetos the Slew Rate remains dead on the money Zero aa Rpms increase.
Hey Steve, not specific to this video - but wondered if you should see about a 'Spin Window' or two for the CNC machines - help with filming / seeing what's going on when the coolant is flowing
hi, sorry for your troubles. I know a guy who got f--- ed into the ground with bad grounds. It came down to the "capicity of the ground" I.E. the amount of amperage the ground was capable of carring to complete he circuit. good luck
It's hard to say what's going on watching a video. It's much better being there. I would think running the grounds back to battery or starter. If the starter is ok with the ground so will everything else. I would have liked to see the exhaust manifolds and where the O2 sensors are mounted. Not sure but at the end it looked like he put the system in "open loop" to take the O2 sensors out of it, old school. I think Steve knows what's going on at the end of the day. The cam wasn't right for NA. Steve doesn't say how much lift or duration of cam. Since the power is good at lower RPM it needs more air at higher RPM to make big HP. I missed how much boost they'll run. 12-15 should wake it up at high RPM. As a tech it's interesting to watch someone go through trouble shooting to find the problem. I'm sure there was a lot more off camera. Normal people have no idea how frustrating it can be and how wonderful it is when you find the problem.
About beat the rods out the dang thing hunting na power on a boosted app…… dont seem like somthing Steve would do! But i absolutely love the diagnostic part of this! Shows proper way of chasing a problem from start to finish!
Even big tube double wall headers will kill a normal 598 boat engine, I cant imagine these being much more than 2 1/4 ID. And the sharp 90 degree bends as well. A 900 inch can move a lot of cfm, but only if it can get out. The blower will probably clean it up.
You need some noise isolators for your ground circuit. They are small insulated boxes that have a resistor in them that prevents back currents from flowing into the grounds.
Time 2000 note how the shutters in the dyno wall such shut at high RPM. This is even worse with high HP motors. There isn't enough make up air going in to the dyno room, the end result is an engine operating at high altitude NA. .
Lots of random problems. Good to sort before boosting. Strikes me that higher rpm fuel not matching air very well because fuel system doesn't care about rpm but ofcouse diminishinging returns with respect to cylinder filling. Add in slower flame front and less charge compression and slower flame front as a result. Add in anomalies about swirl and mixing fuel. Plugs asked to cope with different combustion pressures etc. I kind of wonder why engines of this cost are not running variable valve timing. We change when the spark fires but are not letting the cam do same thing.
Is it possible that you're losing ignition strength at higher rpm because of eddy currents caused by anodizing? That would explain why spark deteriorated and starts to become less accurate. You can ground the coils better, but if the heads are not well grounded to the block, and the block has points of resistance to other grounded areas, then it can create weird Eddy currents that disrupt high discharge events. I thought I remember seeing that the block deck was anodized. Hope that helps.
That could be a problem. can also just simply be not enough ignition power. There is an infinite amount of issues that can happen with these engines, but what gave me the que was the plug. When it's carbon fouled like that but making max power it's definitely not enough juice to fully ignite the fuel.
I just watched a man back a 135 foot trailer with an 85,000 pound railcar into an area about 3 times as big as yours but it was 1.5 times as wide, he had a spotter and he does that a lot but still it was amazing .
Can't believe a pro charger would be used in a boat application after seeing the number failures in 4 second drag race cars, considering the constant cavitation and loading the boat will see. You can tell a man with too much money, but you can't tell him how to waste it? run in at 6500 and turn off and on the dyno load every 20 seconds for a hour and that is what it will see in the boat. Dude better be one hell of throttle man.
I wonder if because it’s only 9:1 and normal unleaded fuel it’s sooty on the plugs because it’s inefficient up there. Be cool to try a high oxygen fuel to see if it helps it along as the revs climb. Motorsport109 maybe??
with boost 1640 hp and 1780 torque my guess with 25 pounds boost.....Love you're shows Steve can't wait to see Wagon I got excited for nothing on this Video lol. Take care god bless.
On some runs 15 and 17 maybe more I noticed a flash near the back of the motor under the intake and above the valley cover, near the end of each run. What was that?
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Hemi flame propagation is normally not very good so they need a LOT more timing lead than a wedge motor and such a huge motor might not play nice with a single spark plug. Aircraft motors are about the same size cylinder and they use dual spark plugs to lessen the timing lead needed to get the fire all the way across the piston. When I first saw the combustion chambers on the Big Black Hemi I was surprised it didn't have dual plugs and think it would run better lighting the fire in two places vs the one it's using now.
O2 sensors don't read right if the fuel being injected doesn't burn...so you can be super fat yet the sensors will show lean. It's blowing black smoke which means it's not burning the fuel...and this shows on the plugs.
They use dual plugs, for a safety.
They also have dual ignitions.
BUT not used at same time.
It’s in case 1st ignition failure.
The second one can be used.
@@metalted6128No, they absolutely run with both sparks for better power and efficiency.
It can run on one if needed.
@@metalted6128 Wrong.
@@metalted6128 During run-up you always do a 'mag check' where you kill one mag and then the other and you're looking for an rpm drop if they're working right.
Redundancy was a side benefit of the dual plugs and magneto's....the flame propagation is SO slow across the huge piston that at aircraft engine speeds you need to light it in two places to get it all burned in time for proper piston position.
Air plane engines have two plugs and two mags so that if one fails you have back up. Has zero to do with timing
I’d like to see a clip edited into your video of the boat running flat out on the water when done to see its mph.
That's what I want to see ❤
Steve for grounding high frequency noise, you should use a flat braided cable, not regular wire like you used in the video. The "Z" which is impedance in Ohms is to high on regular wire to ground noise due to skin effect. Braided cable has more surface area and lower Z at high frequency. This is why the auto manufacturers use flat braided cable between the body and the engine on modern vehicles. It would be wise to do this in your wagon also. Another way of saying it, not all ground wires are created equal.
1000 HP naturally aspirated at low RPM with a Cam designed for boosted applications and Pump gas and he's disappointed. Steve Morris problems' That things gonna be beastly.
A 632 will push 1000hp so almost 300 cubes more should be much higher so yeah makes sense
Just love it, the things you learn from watching a Steve Morris video. Nobody else does the detail of problems and solutions as much as the SM channel.
You said it.
I like the fact that he doesn't try to hide stuff either. He shows the full struggle, including the rare occasion when he makes a mistake. Regardless, this is not a mechanic or a technician. The stuff he does is nothing short of engineering IMHO
just had to drop a comment to say how amazing this video was.
You could tell in Steve’s voice how happy and passionate he is about his wagon. It’s fantastic. The BBH is a humongous beast and a unique critter. Let’s see what happens now when the Biggest charger goes on it Support from 🇦🇺🇦🇺
👍🏼🏁😎
Two tons of fun in unexpected ways makes for huge 💩-eating 😃.
(Your profile pic makes me assume that you're a solid member of this🥳club.)
I had a customer that had ground issues and it created an intermittent misfire and a cam signal loss and it did all sorts of crazy things. He was on a motec ECU turned out. Somebody installed an oil cooler in the fender well and there was a junction harness it had about six grounds for the ECU, and they put it on a rubber Gromit.
Chasing electrical problems can be a nightmare
My guess is 1770 hp at 25 psi boost for this black monster!
As a harness designer and builder mainly Motec systems your example is the type of stuff that gives me nightmares. Pretty hard to fly to a site and troubleshoot an issue that was "self induced" by the tech who made an install error and charge customer for such accordingly. That said the amount of mental effort SM puts into his creations is mind boggling. We tend to relate to such as "science projects". Differences in grounding potentials can cause disasters and lord knows how that boat is wired.
I’ve been in manufacturing maintenance for 30 years.
Trouble shooting, finding the simplest failure, is so frustrating at times. I always start with the simplest thing first.
Even more so with a one off motor.
Great job SME!!
Many times my brain hurts thinking about why!!
I feel your pain, Steve!!
Steve did us dirty on the paint reveal. 😁
😅😂 right....
Lol
Steve, I don’t even attempt to claim one tenth of your engine building/tuning knowledge. However, I will say this… Welcome to the world of Hemi tuning. I was always a big block Chevy guy turned Hemi guy and what we learned is that the cross flow is so much greater in a Hemi that you throw out most of what you know about tuning wedge engines. Generally if a Hemi doesn’t look like a coal furnace it is either down on power or nibbling on parts. Just what we have seen in our experience. Good luck
If this ain’t the dang truth!!!!! I went from a 540 conventional headed bbc to a hemi setup. Hurt the dam thing right off the trailer
what do you mean by it looking like a coal furnace. can you elaborate a little on what hemis like.
What I mean is that it really needs to be A LOT richer than you think. If the plugs don’t look sooty on gas or way over fueled on alky they are typically not happy
@@65vette396 where do you think the af should be on N/A hemi on gas but smaller CU and higher reving..12s 11s?
@@k20edef1 That’s a very loaded question as every combination will want something different to be happy, but what I would tell you is that I would absolutely start very fat and slowly work towards leaning it out with very small steps. When it stops making large gains definitely stop. But we have a gear jammers car with a 13.5:1 528 Hemi and it’s perfectly happy in the low 11’s on afr or where you would typically run a boosted wedge. It is however on Q16 an oxigenated fuel so that probably affects it a little bit as well.
Actually the winner's guess was closer than you said. He guessed 1, 045 and the actual was 1,044.7; so he only missed by .3 HP, not 1 full HP. That's a pretty &%$# GOOD guess...!! Congrats!
.29 horsepower :)
1044hp out of 14L! thats 74hp per liter.
I do that backing stuff all day, every day. I deliver fencing materials. I love you, Steve, get over it and drive your stuff!
This Monster needs more AIR, YOURE STARVING THE INTAKE!!!
Hi Steve, you said you read the comments. I hope my input is helpfull. I am probably not about to say anything you dont already know. But with good intentions. I see no downside to throw out some thoughts. Honestly so many things came to mind watching I wish I could have afforded to fly down and have a look in person.
Looked like TPS was moving on the logs. If so was AE being excited on and off blasting fuel shots causing the A/F spikes your seeing? It would also explain the black plugs.
AE roc blanking might have to be turned up to filter out tps scatter. But also on the dyno I would reccomend shutting all the AE modifiers off. You dont need tip in on the dyno anyway.
Next. Did you try it in open loop? If the O2 sample rate is too high or any anomally is giving false O2 readings. You will be able to see the issue go away in open loop. What is the O2 speed setting at?
Grounding is important. But all those grounds can cause ground loops further agrivating things. Especially if any AC ripple is present from things like example: electric water or fuel pumps or battery charging devices, secondary ignition leaks etc. Why would you throw the boost to it when it has a running issue that at the least is fuel foulling plugs. Something is unhappy and needs fixing before you crank boost into the poor thing. Throw a carb on it if need be to be sure it is not a valvetrain annomally? The shutting off thing was scary. If thats from fuel that needs to be looked at before adding boost imo. Point the timing light toward you and tape the trigger down. Watch it during the run and if the engine misses or shuts off again you will see the light flash interupt.
The BSAC and
The BSFC are going to give clues here if valve motion is interupted.
If only bsfc is wooobly. And bsac stays smooth. Then its likely valve control has been maintained.
Again. I am sure you already are all over this and more. But it never hurts to reach out and share some thoughts.
Thanks for your videos. Very entertaining for a used old man like me.
Cheers!
Been looking forward to the paint reveal since this rebuild started. Wraps are nice, and definitely have their place, but for nice custom stuff like this the old custom painter's saying applies: "If it ain't paint, it ain't schitt"
Wild to see an engine making 1000hp reliably, and have it be not happy, but that’s cause Steve does wild stuff! Very cool to watch the stuff this shop accomplishes!
The fact that you are having to work hard to get the best performance out of the engine makes for a great video. I am sorry you had to suffer through it to make us this video.
One thing is certain, you can definitely hear when it's happier on a pull.
God, I love how Steve thinks… so methodical. it’s like looking at decades of experience in seconds
a "dark mode" on the software onscreen would be so so pretty imo
2288hp ;)
my guesstimate for why it stalls out because of the amount of air is too little, since she soots like a diesel when letting go at high rpm she must be rich. meaning too little air. sometimes one has so much knowledge about a thing that one forgets the simplest things. like when you make a perfect solderjoint the gorram shrink is on the table when you triumphantly smile:)
Yeah the yourdyno software is a bit bright i agree. Its customizable but i cant be bothered adjusting every colour.
I've done the soldering thing so many times 😂
With the coil leads, I do recall a problem with a different engine where someone changed their spark-plug brand and started to have problems - turned out they were just that much shorter that there wasn't a direct connection but there was enough voltage to jump that gap and the gap at the tip, until the cylinder pressures built up and there was insufficient voltage for reliable ignition.
You mentioned earlier that a mis-fire does look like a lean AFR/lambda, so later with the "20:1" it'd underline it being an ignition issue, especially if otherwise it seemed to be a "rich" mixture.
If you have EMI/EMF noise issues it’s probably best to run dual shielded cables with drains to all your sensors and ignition wires rather then just regular wire. You can also add ferrites to the wires to collect an other EMI / EMF. It can definitely give you cause readings. Proper grounding methods are important but just adding multiple random grounds won’t do much. You can actually create a ground loop.
Those big motors should have a pre combustion chamber super rich to get the flame travel going. Would of course have to redesign the head. Definitely needs two plugs a hole.
With EFI the fuel is typically squirted onto the back of the valve while it is closed so that it is the first thing in the chamber when the valve opens for the best mixing of the air and fuel. During overlap some air and fuel is pulled out thru the exhaust and on a hemi the valves are in a straight line so that initial bit of charge pulled out the exhaust is very rich and the mixture trapped in the chamber ends up much leaner as a result of its fuel being pulled out of the chamber during overlap. When this happens your AF ratio measured in the exhaust is the average of the rich and lean charges and all this changes what the engine actually needs and certain combos at certain rpm and throttle angles really screws with the tune that it actually wants and for example 12.5 might work best at a certain rpm/ throttle opening but a different rpm might want a totally different average ratio because a different amount of rich/ lean mix is actually captured in the cylinder. This is actually the biggest reason hemi engines tend to like wide LSA cams, it is also why EFI engines tend to work better with wider LSA cams because this effect still happens in a wedge but not as pronounced.
Love the boost, clean out the old charge, force it to breathe!
Steve kicks ass!
Very interesting technical trouble shooting here ; great video. Really looking forward to seeing the wagon going down the track again. Many thanks.
It seems to me not enough spark for the airflow. Or not enough airflow for a proper mixture for a clean burn. You know Steve, put the boost to it and it will be normal. It will run like it should. That’s why it was designed this way, if NA you would have to add a spark plug or change the location of the spark plug and injector. I love what your doing and I can’t wait to see the next one!
glad you show the struggles. that's where you learn
So I just bought a SM shirt, but I've got to say its pretty consistent across youtube that NONE of you guys have a Pocket Tee! I gonna take my money to the store that has one. Been diggin your videos Steve ,keep up the Good work!
Watching everything you do is fascinating, steve. But I'll happily stick to my sbc's with distributors and carburetors. This level of tuning/troubleshooting you're doing and the headaches that come with it would melt my brain
I admire your skill and patience Steve.Interesting video.
Cool watching you guys troubleshoot!
I never thought I'd be callin' Steve Morris an SOB.... 🤣🤣🤣
...that was cold Steve. -40 cold. 😁
When they made don garlic run the hemi he hated it he cranked the timing to it to blow it up so he could go back to his old combo and it finally come alive
Garlits, not garlic!!! LOL
And also remember that was on nitro not 93 pump gas lol.
It was the 426 Hemi that Garlits tried to blow up because he couldn’t get it to run as fast as his tried and true 392 Hemi. The larger bore of the 426 needed more lead vs the 392 to get everything in the chamber to burn.
@@leftyo9589- In Bakersfield he was Don Garbage!
Are the water cooled headers somehow effecting the air fuel reading? There are three things out of the normal for this dyno run. Big cubic inch, anodizing, and water cooled headers. Tthe cubic inch with the small cam can be some of the problem. I think you fiixed the grounding problem. Maybe it's the headers.
Where are the O2 sensors mounted? Water is affecting the O2 sensors.
Thats what i was thinking, grounding issue on the o2's from the powdercoated water jackets causing them to freak out.
I have built 40 some engines in my life, and not once have I had any issue with bank angle. Granted, they were in-line engines, but still... Thanks for teaching me something!
Mutha!! I actually thought we were gonna see the wagon at the end. 😂
Worth the wait till the END !!! WOW AMAZING!!! Thanks!
You have the patience of a Saint, Steve! You build some VERY durable engines.
Have a great Memorial Day weekend. Keep doing Your thing.
casually dropping hour long videos. love it
Great video as always. Keep up the great work guys!!!
I haven't seen anyone comment that you made 2 #15 pulls, it is just mind boggling to me what all goes into turning these high end motor's but if I ever have one built it will be one of your's.
Thanks for sharing !
I kept looking at the AF ratio number ( middle bottom number on left screen and it seemed like it was hitting high13s on the lower power runs and high 12s low 13s on the higher power runs. I thought NA is way lean under load at high 13s? Glad you got it figured out. i think your right the cam is the limiting factor after rulling out all the grounding and ignition possibilities.
Another Steve Morris master class, top notch content 😊🎉🇦🇺👍
Very interesting video hard work pays off 💪 keep living the dream ✨️
That Black widow hemi is biting your arse all during this build . Good luck. Keep up the good work
Cool to see how you work through problems and solve issues
I was ready to see that woodgrain paint job too 😱😄
I was like 130 Hp off too, Rip my Steve Morris hat dreams lol Congrats to Ben for guessing so close! 😱🤙🏽
Thank you for making this video ... I just did a turbo engine on the dyno with no turbo that came up a little short on power ... Ran sweet ... didn't care about timing change or fuel change ... Just kept repeating over and over ... Plugs read oddly ... Everything was great but just 50 to 60 hp low ... Finally told the guy that it is what it is and it will make what he wants easy on boost and engine was smooth as silk and no problems .... He was happy I felt like i had failed .... I feel your frustration but happy i am not alone .... Really want to see the video on daves LS as he is a local guy i know
I bet, even if it isn't related to your current dyno fight, well thought out grounding to a single point (vs. daisy chain) could be something that is worth doing for the end user. I never thought about an anodized engine and the issues related, but sensors are so sensitive that intermittant/unreliable ground potential can be a nightmare.
One of your coolest videos to date - and that's saying a lot. I bleepin' love the spark plug holder. Give whoever came up with that idea a raise and bonus! When gray comes back in stock, I will be a customer!!!!!
Love your show. Wish I could shadow your builders and get trained in building engines.😂
Well one thing for sure this video series has shown the problems encountered with one off custom engines. Also the most surprising to me was the impact low compression has on overall power output. N/A I would have guessed another 180 hp more than it made.
I think this is a ground problem, electrical system isn’t happy. I would make sure that everything is grounded. You might even need to run a large separate ground from the battery and run all of the grounds to it instead of relying on the block.
Awesome can't wait for the next video and to see the wagon.
I watched this whole thing waiting for the wagon pain 😂😂😂, still a cool video but man Steve got me, just have to wait till Tuesday to see it, something to look forward to
At 53:45 you can see part of it. The wood grain on the passenger side bottom is creating quite a large shadow making it look really thick there, but that could be the angle of the lighting!
I work a distribution warehouse that carry like car vinyl. And we move a lot of vinyl from 3M and a couple other huge vinyl companies and we have wood grain vinyl that would blow your mind we even carry real carbon fiber vinyl. I could get you a sample mailed out for couple different wood ones
what a grind on the dyno, sheesh!
Dealt with a lot of hard anodizing over the years and it is typically goo for insulating about 600 V per .001 of thickness. We typically anodized all our parts to .002 thick, which usually equated to .0015 deep and .0015 added on.
Steve a buddy i know installed anodized alternator brackets he also installed brand new alternator. It wouldn't charge he would take it back off have it tested it worked no problem reinstall no charge. Ended up being no ground had to sand a few contact spots to remedy. Heck those heads may not be grounded good to the block if the entire cylinder head is coated in that anodize..
The mating surface is not coated.
Great content thanks for sharing
There appears to be a Electronic ignition issue Steve Morris. Ignition Dwell coil saturation time. Controlled by FET Transistors. Its best checked by Vintage Auto Oscilloscopes. Or by an Electronic Technician Engineer Grade Storage Oscilloscope.
No way to use a Magneto ignition with EFI Full control.
I prefer Magneto ignitions myself simple and reliable. Magnetos have Double The Burn time in crank degrees measured Vs any Electronic ignition CD or Coil on plug. All Magnetos generate AC Current Vs DC Current with all battery ignitions.
Also have Slew Rates changes with all electronic ignitions.
Magnetos the Slew Rate remains dead on the money Zero aa Rpms increase.
Hey Steve, not specific to this video - but wondered if you should see about a 'Spin Window' or two for the CNC machines - help with filming / seeing what's going on when the coolant is flowing
I've had to cut the spark plug boots, hate those style wires. I'll always pull the spring inside to lengthen the boot for a good snap connection.
I’ve had the wideband jump on Holley systems before due to fuel boiling in the lines.
36 👍's up Steve Morris thank you for sharing 🤗
2187 HP I’m guessing. What a struggle with this big black hemi. Good luck sir
hi, sorry for your troubles. I know a guy who got f--- ed into the ground with bad grounds. It came down to the "capicity of the ground" I.E. the amount of amperage the ground was capable of carring to complete he circuit. good luck
It's hard to say what's going on watching a video. It's much better being there. I would think running the grounds back to battery or starter. If the starter is ok with the ground so will everything else. I would have liked to see the exhaust manifolds and where the O2 sensors are mounted. Not sure but at the end it looked like he put the system in "open loop" to take the O2 sensors out of it, old school. I think Steve knows what's going on at the end of the day. The cam wasn't right for NA. Steve doesn't say how much lift or duration of cam. Since the power is good at lower RPM it needs more air at higher RPM to make big HP. I missed how much boost they'll run. 12-15 should wake it up at high RPM. As a tech it's interesting to watch someone go through trouble shooting to find the problem. I'm sure there was a lot more off camera. Normal people have no idea how frustrating it can be and how wonderful it is when you find the problem.
About beat the rods out the dang thing hunting na power on a boosted app…… dont seem like somthing Steve would do! But i absolutely love the diagnostic part of this! Shows proper way of chasing a problem from start to finish!
Even big tube double wall headers will kill a normal 598 boat engine, I cant imagine these being much more than 2 1/4 ID. And the sharp 90 degree bends as well. A 900 inch can move a lot of cfm, but only if it can get out. The blower will probably clean it up.
2ga minimum battery cable with crimped lugs from the headers, valve covers and intake manifold to ground.
You need some noise isolators for your ground circuit. They are small insulated boxes that have a resistor in them that prevents back currents from flowing into the grounds.
Time 2000 note how the shutters in the dyno wall such shut at high RPM. This is even worse with high HP motors. There isn't enough make up air going in to the dyno room, the end result is an engine operating at high altitude NA. .
Lots of random problems. Good to sort before boosting. Strikes me that higher rpm fuel not matching air very well because fuel system doesn't care about rpm but ofcouse diminishinging returns with respect to cylinder filling. Add in slower flame front and less charge compression and slower flame front as a result. Add in anomalies about swirl and mixing fuel. Plugs asked to cope with different combustion pressures etc. I kind of wonder why engines of this cost are not running variable valve timing. We change when the spark fires but are not letting the cam do same thing.
Is it possible that you're losing ignition strength at higher rpm because of eddy currents caused by anodizing? That would explain why spark deteriorated and starts to become less accurate. You can ground the coils better, but if the heads are not well grounded to the block, and the block has points of resistance to other grounded areas, then it can create weird Eddy currents that disrupt high discharge events. I thought I remember seeing that the block deck was anodized. Hope that helps.
52:30 "LIVE ACTION!"
WOW that looks awesome!
My father was explaining that to me about his 392 hemi he built back when he was younger the timing has to be way advanced
The challenges thrown at Steve daily are crazy. Problem solver constantly. Has to be exhausting!
Would love to see a video on how that Devel 16 engine package came together
Im sure itll make about 1763hp on boost. Always great engine builds! Thanks for the information!
That could be a problem. can also just simply be not enough ignition power. There is an infinite amount of issues that can happen with these engines, but what gave me the que was the plug. When it's carbon fouled like that but making max power it's definitely not enough juice to fully ignite the fuel.
Thanks for the" trip to the mountains ", STEVE! The graph make a great map !
I mean I'd like to know what your air density and how much I want to know how much are you pushing through that beast every revolution.
On the really rich pull you can see something dripping from under the intake on the right side to us like where the runner meets the plenum
I just watched a man back a 135 foot trailer with an 85,000 pound railcar into an area about 3 times as big as yours but it was 1.5 times as wide, he had a spotter and he does that a lot but still it was amazing .
you would think a 903ci engine.. would hit atleast 15-1800 HP before even tuning or power adders... crazy
Can't believe a pro charger would be used in a boat application after seeing the number failures in 4 second drag race cars, considering the constant cavitation and loading the boat will see. You can tell a man with too much money, but you can't tell him how to waste it? run in at 6500 and turn off and on the dyno load every 20 seconds for a hour and that is what it will see in the boat. Dude better be one hell of throttle man.
I wonder if because it’s only 9:1 and normal unleaded fuel it’s sooty on the plugs because it’s inefficient up there. Be cool to try a high oxygen fuel to see if it helps it along as the revs climb. Motorsport109 maybe??
I need this in my Civic.
One of the guesses should be how many gallons of fuel were used to get through it!😂
with boost 1640 hp and 1780 torque my guess with 25 pounds boost.....Love you're shows Steve can't wait to see Wagon I got excited for nothing on this Video lol. Take care god bless.
Have u thought about moister from the jacketed exhaust messing with the 02 sensor
I miss the big stains on the dyno glass…😊
A 1000 n/a on a low compression engine sounds pretty good to me
On some runs 15 and 17 maybe more I noticed a flash near the back of the motor under the intake and above the valley cover, near the end of each run. What was that?
Voltage drop testing from your 12V source/ battery terminals. Only way to truly see electrical resistance.