Sorceress 640ci Pro Mod Big Block Is Ready To Rock!
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- Thank you to everyone that has helped with this project we can't wait to see what it will do at the track!
www.efi101.com
www.arp-bolts.com
www.jesel.com
www.mantonpushrods.com
Unreal. He is a ridiculously good speaker and explains complex problems effortlessly.
Helps he’s a teacher
It’s also edited very well
@robertmcfarland1816 What technology?
Seriously man...massive information in a small space.
@robertmcfarland1816Yes, yes like the infinite wisdom of Hank Johnson for example.
You and Steve Morris are too much. You show us reality and how you do it. Amazing parts to make this happen. It all makes perfect sense.
As an engineer I listened for a while. I understand the constraints with hardness and brittleness along with toughness and durability. The approach to identify and solve problems with this particular engine is very fun to follow. Always looking for the next weak link and whether or not to leave it as a the fuse or fix it.
@@guyvanbrussel9772 always underestimate and over deliver
@@bigboreracing356 exactly
Cummins diesel had a lot of issues back in the 1970's with the cam lobes that drove the high pressure unit injectors. They had to introduce a much beefier "Big Cam" version of the NTC-855 engine. Basically, your car engine valve train is beginning to look like a truck engine valve train. Diesels now run 17 to 1 compression with 40 psi of boost, and last 2 million kilometers.
they also turn 2000 rpm vs 10k lol
@@TurboVisBits Why do people keep saying this ignorant isht. 40 years ago sure, but even 20 years ago it was double that for the diesels I worked on, it's over 6k now for some. And like OP says, that's at 17:1 at 40+PSI. Put that through your 10krpm noise maker that can barely spin the wheels.
Wow did not know they are that high of compression these days. Does the diesel run cooler and of course lubricates more than a gas engine therefore runs cooler and can run more miles before they need rebuilt?
They don't have an inch of valve lift, and a thousand pounds of spring behind them either.... HUGE difference.
It's amazing how loud that engine was even though it wasn't running!! Crazy
Most engine noise comes from the valve train..start you car and open the hood the "engine noise" you hear is the valves/rocker arms be actuated.
Great engine guys like this man holds just as much know how as a mechanical engineer. I don't know squat about engines, but people like this guy does.
Im a machinist. You did an excellent job of explaining everything. I also build big block chevys and those push rods are insane. That is an incredible engine, love everything about it
You have a great grasp of what is going on as well as being able to explain it in a way that normal people can understand. Kudos.
What is amazing is it sounds like a running engine even though there is no combustion. Just amazing. I guess I was ahead of my time when 25 years ago everyone was switching there big block chevys to 3/8 pushrods and I kept running the 71/6 gm pushrods and never had any issues running a 800 lift roller in a 396 at 8k rpm
Just like when your car does engine braking. The fuel is cut (on injection) yet the engine still alive
Most of the noise comes from valvetrain.
I am not buying your pushrod story....
It just DOESN'T work that way.
You are NOT running spindly little stock pushrods at .800 lift to 8kRPMs.
You'd NEED 700+lb springs to do that, and a stock pushrod is NOT going to cut it. PERIOD!
@davelowets I have always ran larger push rods 120 wall. Dude I've built over 100 big blocks, I was also friends with dick maskin .
When you are talking about camshaft materials, you are describing "material toughness" the amount of resistance to cracking/failure for high intensity momentary loads. Super relevant here, and cool to see what I learned in materials class make sense in the real world like that.
Excellent presentations yes. You cannot teach what you do not know.. and this cat knows his stuff.. Very well done.
Congratulations to the Sorceress team. She is a very mysterious lady indeed. from an engineering perspective.. This tech will open some doors. Outstanding.
This is one of the coolest, most informative nerdgasms of a video I've ever watched.
Wow, I really love Camshaft and valve train technology, I’ve incorporated a lot of this modern technology into the old Pontiac engines that I build, a lot of people give me crap for having expensive parts in my valve train, but I have noticed significant power increases using modern spring technology and increasing the stiffness so in my mind it’s not about it absolutely 100% necessary but it’s more about what can I do to make this the best I can possibly make it, awesome video two thumbs up for sure!!
Thanks, this is the best and most informative video that I've seen. Explaining parameters and machining principles are sometimes forgotten along with heat cycles. Thanks again for keeping this country running! It still takes fuel ⛽️ to charge an Electric car....
This is the only person who has ever talked valvetrain and I understand how it all works very interesting
Can’t imagine what all those changes cost. Worth it I’m sure but a lot.
I bet you could purchase a couple of modest houses for the price of that engine!!
I always heard speed cost money
This level of detail is fantastic. It is all about real world dynamics and the Spintron testing is eye opening. Thanks for sharing.
The huge valve lift is crazy that the valves don’t tag the pistons. Awesome job.
It is so cool that it sounds like a running engine even without the combustion !
Geez, your skills at communicating and educating are off the charts. Great video and a great way to present a complicated topic.
Who pays for this enormous project . It really wonderful to see this good job .
I've introduced two of my friends that are interested in engines.
Great presentation on problem identification and methods to address the issues.
I had a physics professor in college with the same talent for a balanced mix of lecture and demonstration.
Thank you.
3/4 inch pushrod on the exhaust valves looks insane
As someone who is designing their own BBC (big block coyote) that will be 642ci. This is all very valuable information. Thank you!
Welcome back. Getting Godbold to dig into lobe profiles means this has been quite the project. I had never seen 3/4" pushods in service before.... thing is a beast! I wonder if anyone has experimented with rifleing in larger diameter pushrods to get at both improved flex resistance with lower mass? I don't see square cuts like a firearm uses working, but more of a waved radius to avoid odd stress points [and maybe an extrusion hone for finish]. Somebody will figure that out, somewhere. If I had to guess a starting point for experiment maybe 0.28/foot, but I'm not the smartest guy in the room - could be less. As always, F=ma turns out to be a deceptively simple thing when it comes to making parts live. Really looking forward to this setup hitting the track.
Push rods? They look like drumsticks!
I don't see "rifling" helping in any way
That’s pretty amazing valve control for a valve of that size!
The valve train now reminds me a lot of how NASCAR teams do there head's with the one piece rocker stands and if those motors can zing for hour's at a time really looking forward to how this car is going to run now. I hope now the chassis and rear end can stay with the motor but I've watched this project for 2 years now can't wait to see the #'S it runs now.....
Such a fantastic video! This is the first time I've ever commented on a video in the 6-7yrs that I've been watching videos on RUclips as my only source of entertainment. Thank you for the amazing content, excited for more to come! 🤘🏻🔥
Beautiful engine & great engineering to correct the valve train issues.
Great content, expertly communicated. What the video doesn't capture though, is the SOUND that comes off an engine on the spintron. I used to run cup car engines back in the late 2000s; both on the dyno and the spintron. Past ~8000rpm or so, you couldn't hear the difference between an engine actually running and one just spinning with no rods, pistons, sucking, squishing, banging or blowing....just a bare "crankshaft" spinning a cam actuating the valvetrain.
WOW ! ! ! I learned more in this video in 20 to 30 minutes than that of the past 100 hours of other videos. I really enjoyed the intricate verbal details of stuff that is likely just common sense and common knowledge for all you folks, but was mind blowing for me. Thank you. Really neat stuff.
It is really impressive how well controlled they can keep a pushrod valvetrain at fairly high rpm, using close attention to detail. I'm inspired to look into who has build the highest RPM V8 pushrod engine with conventional pushrod lengths (ie not stuff like that Ilmor Indy engine with ultra short push rods). Getting those 5mm Kistler's electronics running right and producing reliable data on a run will be fun/total pain in the ass. Good luck!
One of the best I've come across yet... No ego, just facts... Much appreciated ❤
I liked this video, lots of information, definitely not a super stock mindset. Those are now the biggest diameter pushrods I`ve ever seen, Ive been inside a Proline motor and they were 11/16, I couldn`t believe my eyes, at least now I know why
3/4" push rods! 😂 that is just insane. Seriously, great knowledge overall, thanks for sharing
I could hear you talk about this all day. Very impressive.
Thanks for sharing it with us
Glad to see you guys back.
Comp cams and Jesel are unbelievable products
Those pushrods are Unbelievable
Very interesting facts and information for any traditional car enthusiasts, thank you!
Extremely interesting tech here, makes me wonder what the engineers struggled with on the 4.900 bore space engines years ago. Really enjoyed learning about the cam cores you’re working with. Reminded me of reading Bill Jenkins telling about having 86 degrees of camshaft twist at 180 degrees of crank rotation but 94 degrees of cam rotation on the next 180 degrees of crank rotation. He also spoke about having ignition timing being all over the place from the front of the engine to the back from camshaft wrap up and unloading. Absolutely awesome that people are still finding ways to work around some of the same problems.
Thought it was pretty neat to see your one piece rocker stands. A set to fit the Brodix PB 2002 heads is one of my next planned purchases. My 4.610 bore pistons seem monstrous to me, I have a feeling the slugs in this engine dwarf mine by a long shot. Looking forward to seeing how their race tactics and program change with the new developments.
Great video! One of my favorite cars. Sporting a Tom Bailey shirt I see! Super cool
So cool hearing an engine run with no combustion
Super interesting! and such detailed r&d! These videos always confirm to me why the USofA as engineers doing amazing work. Awesome!👍👍
Never seen an engine on a spintron before so that was interesting. Looking forward to seeing the car on the hub dyno.
What a wonderful and informative video. Thank you all involved.
Fascinating testing and validation. Thanks for sharing. I have a few questions
1) In this test setup (my apologies if you said) is it just the valve train (cam, push rods, valves, springs, oil) without the piston assembly (crank, conn-rods, pistons, rings)?
2) How does this valve train compare to that of a NASCAR motor that sustains that level of RPM for hours?
Great, great information. This channel and Steve Morris Engines are simply the best!
Back when I did cup car valvetrain kinematics R&D with GM, we cut windows through the block, into the cylinders so our laser system could bounce off a mirror and beam upwards towards the valves; thus measuring their position over time. The "crankshaft" was just a drilled bar to connect to the spintron, oil the main bearings and drive the cam. No rods or pistons.
I'm interested to hear what the valvetrain differences are between one of these pro-mods and the cup cars. Back when I was working on cup cars, 9500rpm was a maximum - but none of the valvetrain parts were as big or beefy as what I see here. Of course, a 640" engine has much more massive valves - so they're a lot harder to control. But then again, the cup car has to do the job a lot longer. We used to say MIS or Texas were the hardest on valvetrains because the way the cars were geared for those tracks.
Wow, incredible man. Congratulations on that.
hi just found you guys.....what an amazing video , so much knowledge such great engine building research and developement . a gearhead`s dream
I only know what i been told or remember hopefully right . I think i remember this engine having problems with valve train problems..i remember Darrin Morgan talking about certain engine combinations having to open valves under a lot of pressure and at that time i wonder if this was part of the problem was . I remember Reir Morrison talking about how that really helped develop cam profiles and keep the parts from i assume going into a resonant vibration.. Stiffing up the rocker stand is a great idea ..Enjoy the videos
WoW!!!
A step above.
Well narrated.
Well after installation of and ,800 lift camshaft in my SBC 360ci motor Competition Cams said I needed to make the horse power I need for all motor Drag racing.
I found issues that were showing on this motor.
And these are real issues
that cause problems on timing as well as breaking issues like they were having.
I would love to see this on my motor.
It looks a lot better here than trying to find them on the Drag strip !
Maybe try cracking the valve slowly off their seats to alleviate some of the pressure before they go fully open. Just a thought that's what I would be looking at the cam profile
hydraulics expert. You're talking about Pascal's law where area times pressure equals force. yes I can believe that the valves are under tremendous pressure to stay open or closed
Would be awesome to see an SMX on the spintronic.
Seeing the cylinder pressure on the track will also be bad ass.
This shows just how good the SMX platform really is.
Excellent explanation of limits!!!
That's amazing. Thanks for sharing with us.
3/4” pushrod lol
That’s insane!!!!
Awesome. Subd
Very well explained. Since there’s no fuel with your test apparatus how do you know what cylinder pressure is and the effect on the engine? I guess I should have watched till the end.
Awesome video, the results speak for themselves, the money and time spent on the Spintron was worth it 💯 definitely excited to see how fast the Sorceress will go now that parts stop breaking 💪
Awesome stuff, I'm a junkie for this stuff. Really neat sensors for measuring combustion pressure. Looking forward to seeing the data from that. Y'all take care.
To me it looks like you're just looking at the cam profile looking for valve bounce and such. of course engines going to have different harmonics and pressures when it's running. This is a good way to diagnose any problems up to that point when you do run it
What an awesome look at what it takes to hold an engine together at this level. Thanks, y'all
incredible engineering, just awesome
Amazing job here. I loved it.
I know it’s probably not cheap, but after seeing this and videos from Brian Tooley and his spintron. I feel every high Hp, or max effort race engine should be on a spintron, before it hits the engine dyno…
What an incredible tool! Also job well done! 👍🤘👏
Very cool ! except there is no combustion boost pressure on the engine Tons of R&D Good luck guys!!!
Very , very interesting ! Many thanks.
Always amazes me how much of the "V8 sound" comes from the valvetrain.
Spintron technology is an amazing system for building engins
Silly question, but what make is that big block, they don’t say? Big block Chevy and 385 series big block Ford both have canted valves, wasn’t sure.
Such a good informative video!!! Thank you!
Back in the 50s Renault built the little 807 Sierra engine locating camshaft high in the block to use very short pushrods, I cant recall who is building a v8 cam higher in the block but this thing is scary as a sorceress with big wands for pushrods!
To get that right combination it takes a lot of time and work man and some money
Your videos may be few and far between but they are pretty special.... the .750 pushrod was epic (we ran .500 on fuel).. Can you say what rocker you are running? Guessing that the top end is more like a hemi now with one piece stands and will save some time cycling the car... Can't wait to see the runs..
If you watch the video before this he talks with the guy from Jessel and the Jessel guy goes over all of that in detail, They changed quite a bit to create a one piece rocker stand and they are using a steel rocker arm 1.85in 1.75ex
Indy car engines still use conventional valve components but made of incredibly light weight and still spin to 16,5k rpm. But it’s apples and oranges because of eliminating pushrods, etc.
Would be nice if you could see the spintron data with full cylinder pressure to see the exhaust valve open under all that force.
Yes, that must alter the data significantly
What a great video i hope there will be more 👍🏿
You should create a cam that looks like a mini crank with push rods that connect to it with bearings and create a mechanical driven valve system … so the valves are connected to the cam …all driven by one motion … That way there is never any bounce… still use some spring to keep the valves shut … but basically it is a mechanical valve system…… 😄 that’s old style … old school …what the oldies would have done …… ✅
I think you need to make a correction at 28.0 . You are talking about closing the Ex valve on the compression stroke 60 to 70 deg ABDC. I think you meant to say the Intake valve?
Also I did notice that the saddles on the rocker stands are 1/2 the Dia of the shaft, so the shaft is now sitting deeper in the saddle, not like the way they have done for years with only about 20 degs of the radius for the shaft to nest in. This was a mod. I have done for years to make the valve train more supported and stable.
This is the real reason why you can make more power, better valve motion and stability.
Crazy knowledge, 👍 subscribed ❤
Excellent informative video!
ABSOLUTE TOP NOTCH, A 10,000 rpm 640c.i. badass mofo
WOW.....MY PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED!!!!
LORD HAVE MERCY....WOW
Wow!!!! So much info, such a great guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is an excellent video.
That setup is cool. I do have a question, does a running motor with its pressures and harmonics change the data? Very cool work. Super impressive..
Cylinder pressure sensors are the future. If you count that as promod, Firepunk diesel uses them on the dyno, but only for open loop tuning. They have spikes maxing out 550 bar sensors, I wonder what kind of pressure you will see...
I am fairly sure Fomula 1 uses them closed loop, is that something you will look into?
QUESTION. A recent drag and drive racer literally blew the intake manifold off the car and out through the hood on the big end of the track. They could not find a reason for this after their investigation. As you explained very well it obviously had the intake valve hang open or had a bad bounce issue. Possible valve guide seize issue too. But in any case its understandable these pro engine builders are running the max cam profile design for performance. What Im interested to know is how much horse power is lost by dialing the cam profile back to a safer zone.
Hi guys, pretty interesting stuff, I do not understand how the intake port are tape close when you do a pull. Cheers
What they do is they very carefully have high quality masking tape cnc laser cut to the rectangular block shape. They then program a Kuka welding robot to carefully and precisely apply the masking tape, using a special rolling attachment. There's another video on that.
Just move the exhaust opening back a few degree's, work on the exhuast port and valve seat. It'll probably pickup power opening later anyway
Awesome 👍
Well boys that's what a cost of a house sounds like.😂
Great video. I sent it to my surviving hotrod buddies. We’re kind of Old. While I fully understand what you are doing - and doing at a top level - I have a question: The Spintron is a great tool. You are duplicating pure rpm. But no combustion. Even I know combustion stress changes things. I realize the next step is the dyno. But are you able to “see” combustion stresses by elevating rpm? Can software approach this factor? Or, after satisfied with the Spintron data just say fkit and light it on the dyno? Not at all questioning the process. You have simply got my undivided attention.
Holy shit you guys are absolute engine gods… I just have a couple questions one have you thought about going to an electronic valve assembly? Two have you thought about using something like a Ruperts drop for the tip of the pushrods and three have you taken into account being stuck on the two-step for a lot longer than what is anticipated
I know these fellows are the best minds in the industry. I have questions about camshafts and crankshafts. Is there a certain amount of twist in the camshaft or crankshaft has, if so, how do you keep the valve timing absolutely perfect giving the varying RPM?
Such a great video.
Great vid bud very educational
Now I would like to see this engine on the engine dyno so we know how much horsepower it makes to the crankshaft
Friggin military grade!
Military Grade $$$ !!
There was a time, not that long ago, where 8K to 10K RPM V-8 engines were just not possible, or took a ton of cash, time & work to sort. It's amazing how technologies keep improving. Makes you wonder if there will be cylinder heads developed that will support 15K RPM on a big inch engine?
Unless the rocker arms, pushrods, and lifters are physically connected at their point of contact there will always be valve float issues limiting rpm.
Thank you Sorceress.
One question in particular concerns me with this type of valve drive, why are all the components held on their contact surfaces to the camshaft only by the springs on the valve stem? Doesn't it also make sense to hold the roller pickup on the camshaft with its own small, light, weak spring that allows it to reach about 75% of the nominal speed without the tappet being held on the camshaft from the valve stem? Of course, this also applies to the pushrods themselves and to the rocker arm which, with a hairpin spring, does not have to be held in contact with the camshaft by the springs on the valve stem up to about 75% of the nominal speed.
🏳
The Planck mass quantum of 2.17651 (13)×10-⁸ kg = 21.7651 µg can be regarded as the ideal material-acoustic structure-borne sound design quantum. For functional components that conduct or generate structure-borne sound and convert it into heat, the harmonic 2^10 = 1024 has proven to be ideal in engine construction for maximum running smoothness with maximum efficiency. With the Planck mass, this results in 21.76 µg * 1024 = 222.87 mg, which can be well maintained as the ideal tolerance factor for internal engine components that are in the range of approx. 912.89 grams. If you manufacture all engine components with a physical integer multiple of "21.76 µg" and keep the tollerance factor on the basis of 2^10, you can design very reliably.
Michael Frithjof Mueller
🏁
I'm not sure I fully understand your question - but seems like you're asking why the valve spring is holding the cam follower against the cam. If that is your question, the answer is "it isn't." This valvetrain is what we call "solid", meaning there is no means of automatically or hydraulically controlling lash. When the cam is on "base circle" and the valve is fully closed, only gravity is holding the pushrod and cam follower against the cam. There is a gap of about 0.4mm between the tip of the rocker arm and the valve stem.
@@GroovesAndLands OK!