Building An 8,000-RPM LS - LS5.0's Short-Block Comes Together
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Have you ever had an idea you were simultaneously sure was both genius and insane? Welcome to Project LS5.0. In this video, we explain the project origins and goals, and bring you with us as we assemble our 5.0L Gen-IV LS short-block. #LS #engine #enginebuild
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Im a ford guy through and through, with that said my wife's first car was a 89 Camaro Rs. I've since picked up a good condition 92 5.0 rs with z28 rear end no engine or transmission very clean interior. I Modified the K member to accept Ls swap. I used a 4.8 block & bored it to fit ls1 pistons 3.8-3.9. Used a comp cam 218/226 .541/.541 & spring retainer kit. 4l60 with Quickshift controller & mild convertor ( 2400-2800). It shifts at 6800-7000rpm ( due to way to small of a cam) Car runs a 12.2-12.4 @ 111 ( dynoed here in Florida 332 whp @ 6700) on 3.08 gears with my wife driving with cats through a single mandrel bent 3 exhaust. Shes happy but your video makes me think about doing a proper build for her instead of the cheap as possible build. Its funny as on the fender it says 5.0 TBI when in reality its a ls with a sniper efi and just as fast as a scat pack on good tires.
That 4l60 won’t hold up better source a 4l80.
You can also put 4L80 parts in the 4L60.
@Thumper68 not with only 330 whp, it'll be fine. If it's over 450 whp then he'd be in trouble.
@simbanugz2906 if I could recommend anything other than a turbo It'd be to get a 3.25 or 3.55 gear, then you'll be running closer to 10 seconds. Not great for gas consumption though probably. And scat packs aren't really very fast anyway, you wanna beat a hellcat redeye or a demon then you're fast. Your Camaro can do it. It just needs a better gear and will eventually need to get boosted which won't cost much sense you already built everything up, all you need is 14.5psi and you'd be at close to 660hp nearly doubling your hp! Realistically though I'd start with a small cheap turbo and keep it between 5-9psi, you'll still gain over 100hp just from 5psi! And even the smallest turbos can usually support well into 14.5 psi easy usually closer to 20 so you'll have room to grow. But I think you could add all that for less than 600 dollars if you know someone who can weld some custom plumbing. Just gotta look around and wait for deals. But a decent turbo is only 100-200 dollars, and you can use the stock exhaust manifolds just flip them downside up and measure how you'd like it oriented. Stainless pipe or even old decent exhaust pipes from other cars you can make into your plumping cheap. Honestly the final gear is what would cost the most but there's plenty of Chevy GMC truck rear ends out there in 3.25-3.55.
@@bigmoney4661 maybe but launching on it will catch up still. I’d have 3.73 gear in it personally. I run 3.73 in my Camaro and it’s a 4 speed Muncie. I can still hit 140 mph.
RUclips Recommendations: "hey, you like mad scientist engine stuff, check this video out"
Me: "yup, this is very in my wheel house."
It's funny how most people think that the 4.8L/3.268" Iron Crankshaft is weak, when in fact, I would put it up against a cheap chinese 4" stroke twist forged crankshaft any day of the week due to it having far more journal overlap and generally suffering from far less centrifugal forces than a larger stroked unit. We have all seen the 4.8L Stock Bottom end produce around 1700 HP in 'Squirrel Tuned' (Jack's) record holding Mustang in the 1/8 mile (I believe it hasn't been broken, either motor or record). The 'Big Bore' Iron 4.8L block/bottom end is and will always be one of my favorites in terms of budget builds, especially if you have a buddy that has a pulled set of LS1/6 Pistons to donate to your cause, that offer a 100% bolt-on experience as their pin height is the same, depending on press fit or floating pin models.
Your home shop is killer.
Appreciate it!
A 4.8 can make peak power at 7200 rpm with stock 706 heads. LS7 lifters will handle 8k with the lightweight stock 48mm valves. With ported heads it will make over 500 bhp.
Is that right? Where can this engine be seen? I'm skeptical of that small wheel lifter.
@@arturozarate1752 Look up "Fastest Stock Bottom End 5.3 LS In The World Goes 7.81". fyi GM says the stock LS7 is stable to 8200 rpm.
@@chrisstavro4698 will do. Thanks for the info
I had this idea a number of years ago; to build a genuine 302 LS and put it into a 2010 Camaro. But I wasn’t willing to sell my Fox Mustang to fund it. Glad someone is doing it.
Brings to mind the Chevy 302s from 67-69.
were the 302s from chevy boat anchors like the 305s or did they ACTUALLY make power?
@@jhitbob Made lots of power at high revs
@@jhitbob the 305 was a smog engine. Although for their period wasn't terrible.
It would have absolutely blown the budget to come up with a 3.0-inch stroke crank for this, otherwise a 6.0 block with that crank would have been killer.
@@jhitbobThe 305 could be built for reasonable power and good economy.
I notice that you used a 10355 oil pump. I'm keenly interested to see what your oil pressure looks like when you start really winding that engine up. That's not at all meant to be negative either, I hope you win. I had a similar combo with a 10296 and it really struggled to make solid oil pressure past 6500-7000ish rpm. The pressure was there but it was always a bell curve and it'd be down 20ish psi from peak at 8-8500. That was with a stock gen 3 oil pickup tube with 3/8" pan clearance. Oil type didn't matter too much but rotella 15W40 (that the internet seems to love still) was the worst and bearing life was very short. Turbo deal and stationary on a chassis dyno, never did make any passes as the combo proved to be completely unreliable.
As long as his oil pump can survive comfortably the rpms, and as long as the heads are able to drain the additional oil introduced by the increase in oil flow due to high rpm, then maybe he's ok.
Excellent tutorial on the build. Looking forward to seeing the numbers.
Since the piston is custom, why wasn't the top ring land moved up? Maybe you've never noticed how far up the rings of factory LS pistons are. GM was thinking on that one.
Down 0.300" compared to 0.150" adds up in power over 8 holes.
If you're trying squeeze every bit out of it.....ditch the 2nd ring, bring in the oil expander, gap the top oil ring to 0.050" bottom to 0.018" and watch the power carry 500 to 800 more rpm. There's the points needed to win.
Man, I was thinking the same thing. I also just read up on my How-To: Guide to Porting by David Vizard
Great video! I have been wondering for a long time, when you grease bolts or use loctite (which as I understand, changes how bolt threads bind and therefore changes torque applied to the wrench), do you use any "rule of thumb" to change torque specs. as to not overtighten bolts?
ARP provides torque specs designed around their Ultra-Torque lube, and with the rod bolt stretch gauge, we can see actual stretch, so the torque value is what it is, at that stretch.
Technical question. If you use a 6.0 iron block 4in bore and a custom 3in stroke crank do the rod ratios and everything come together to have a 8000+ rpm modern 302 LS and be reliable? With the great features of an ls would be like a modern 302 Z/28 would be interesting to see the power with a roller cam and those high flowing ls heads.
Agreed
I am not understanding how you can use a under size bearing and a standard together. One would be thinker than the other!! I know its not much but its still not symmetrical.
Maybe I did not pay attention close enough.
Good build... i've never seen Anti-seize on the bores for piston install... Interesting..
Not quite sure exactly how a ohv cylinder head is gonna flow as much or even more than a dohc cylinder head specifically the coyote cylinder head which from a stock stand point are probably the highest factory flowing head ever manufactured from the factory on mass produced engine in history, and being a chevy guy this isn't easy to admit, but based fact proven the coyote and it's 302ci displacement has proven and achieved some very respectable power numbers in just factory trim, So this is gonna be a very very interesting video😮
I'm really keen on seeing what valvetrain is chosen for this application, or what could be used to push past 8000-rpm reliably.
What in the PowerNation is going on here? 😄
Great stuff
when is the viper rebuild video gonna come out?
@ 11:45 did you check the gap of the rails and gap accordingly?
If not, opening the gap of the top rail will help you make and carry it longer up to 8k.
You`re the first engine builder in a home garage that mic`s parts like a machinist and not using them like C Clamps.
LOL....had you stabbed the cam first, you'd known to get your bolts. 😂😂😂 LOVING THIS!
great video! love your attention to detail. looking forward to the next one!
I'd like to see a 6.0 or 6.2 block with custom crank with 3.0" stroke 12.5:1 compression. Maybe angle cut the heads to get the compression and port and flow the heads a bit. Get good flow. But importantly keep the velocity and swirl up. Port the heads and possibly fill the floor with epoxy. About .120-.150" on rec. Port heads carefully unshroud the valves. Polish the chambers. Ceramic coating the chamber and exhaust ports. Possibly go with larger valves. With multiple angle valve seats. A 4340 crank, and rods long enough to make up the difference. Similar pistons in 4.03+ bore. It should come in around 307-312 cid, maybe slightly larger , another thing id like to see, is a LS7 with a 4.8 crank. With modified LS7 heads, cut them a bit, and back fill the bottom of the ports, open up the bowls smooth out the port. Then fill the bottom of the port about 5/8"-3/4" then slowly open them up on a flow bench. Testing each port until the right shape and size deliverd high flow with high velocity. Testing from .030" lift to 1.200". Not looking for actual flow at yhe obviously outrageous lift. Looking more for port stability and high velocity and volume in the .400"-.800" lift. The match the intake to the intake ports and making the first 10mm if the bottom of and top of the port about .080" larger. And the intake port about .050" smaller. To leave a slight ledge the air doesn't really notice going in. But will effect reverse flow. Then spec a cam with a slight bit more duration at .050" than you think it would want. The high velocity and anti reversion should keep the TQ that would normally be lost. A 5.0L will be lazy with 7.0L high revvng heads. Therevis basically 2.0L difference in flow it would want to rev to possibly 12k+ rpm and be lazy below 6-7K rpm. I figure it would behave like the cam was about 4 sizes too big. It would probably sound mean at idle tho... Sorry to ramble again, have a awesome day...🎉
Sounds good!
Great build! Love the detailed info. Lots of others shows leave out the actual build.
Destroking is not required to turn 8k. A solid valve train does so why people give up displacement is silly
Who destroked anything? It's the factory crank.
Haha copying the coyote platform nice job 👍 good choice since coyote got rated best platform for boost.
Copying? Try "targeting."
Really? One cam verses 4 is copying?
I was going to ask if that cover was equiped to block off the DOD towers but you can actually see the impressions from the top side in the video. Have yall had one of these blocks sonic checked for wall thickness? I know they are really thick but ive never heard a number.
Yep, the valley cover is O-ringed. I thought Jeff sonic-checked the cylinders in the "Little Iron Orphan" article, but I just checked and no dice, unfortunately.
Cool build process 👍: I like those LS screamers.
Still waiting for the next video.....
Allen Deborah Walker William Lewis Amy
DAMN BRO YOU KNOW YOUR SHIT, I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A DUDE LIKE YOU AROUND
my cousins a Ford guy and he gets mad at me because i say Ford doesn't do anything other than a 5.0, what is it 40+ years of RND, it better be mint. i would have thought Ford would have more. IJS.
Super cool build of my favorite and most under appreciated LS engines, the four point Great !! A variation of this build I would love to see is the use of factory floated pin rods (we know they are good past 8,000 RPM), and flat top LS1/LS6 pistons !! I know there is always a push to use aftermarket parts for promotion, but I'm an old school guy who really appreciates the factory engineering in these parts and how they can be used/massaged to amazing results. Again, a super cool build !!
Do you run more oil with the melling high volume? Ive spun bearings on NA builds (and have heard stories from other people) and the culprit seemed to be the high volume pump. I'm sure theres a use case for them, higher volume is good for heat transfer, but doing the swap without any other changes is a big reliability issue in my experience.
Geez-us....what's that big Ole piston weigh? Rod? 😬
Were you able to come under the oem bob? Bob?
No....no weren't. @ 4:59......ok, can't wait to see the out come.
Subbed. Super cool, man!
looking forward to the next episode
Pistons are put the motor at a disadvantage since at rpms past 5500rpm the anti friction skirt coating can attribute to around 5% if not more hp loss
I’ve thought about this exact build since 2012, glad someone has the time and money to do it! and show us the process, Awesome build!
Ls 302 camaro z28 shoulda been a thing
She is a beauty bud.
I wonder why people don`t use another wrist pin to "push" the clip into the groove?
How can I purchase one of these?
You'd have to go to an engine builder, show them our articles, and ask them to build it for you.
The micrometers should have come with gauges. The gauges have rounded tips on them so they are easier to calibrate against, don't use the square blocks..... Well you can, its just harder.
They did, but those are only sanity check standards. You need to use proper gauge blocks for actual calibration.
Super intrested of high reving short stroke LS!
Awesome video bro
Could you put hemispheric heads and pistons in a LS 5.0?
Absolutely, there are LS Hemi heads, but not within this project's budget.
They have been reving LS motors to 8k+ rpms for years now……
And?
And the lifters?
The lifters are part of the valvetrain article/video. This is just the short-block/bottom-end.
I’m guess the rotating assembly was balanced? Or does it not matter with these parts on this build?
That's all covered in the article (didnt make it to the video). It was all balanced at CWT (the balancer manufacturer). Definitely need to balance the assembly to be smooth at 8,000 rpm.
Amazing stuff !!
Thanks!
Cool Project!
Valve timing is more important than cam timing- and they are not the same.
Which Mamo package did you get? Any idea on cam specs?
For GT2 the corvette C6R had a 5.5L V8 making a healthy 491HP for 24h racing duty. It has been done, but getting the heads to flow will take some hustling😂😂😂
How will splitting the rod bearing work? Your gauge will show it’s ok but won’t it be tight loose tight loose as it’s going around since the crank journal never changes? Just curious I’m not shit talking.
The quick and dirty: The bearing clearance is filled by oil, that creates a load carrying wedge which "centers" the rod on the journal. I think we have a deep dive with Dan Begle on the site where he has a whole hour-long seminar explaining how the oil cushion changes with each part of the stroke, and things to consider beyond just static clearance.
@EngineLabs I'm lost. Is this based on actual bearing thickness or actual circumference? Im being extreme here but, If I have a 1inch bearing and a 2inch bearing placed together. The 1inch bearing is 3 inches thick and the 2 inch bearing is 1/2 thick won't the oil "pack" against the 2inch bearing while the 1inch bearing gets starved, causing wear to the journal in specific spots?
Can’t wait to see the next part
Keen to see the rest of this build
Why didn't you lube the cam completely???
It's a roller cam. The lobes will get oiled when the lifters go in, and then the whole system will be pressure lubed before first start on the dyno.
I wish I would have went to school to learn machining
It's never to late to learn.
I'm all confident
Now add boost
if the LS is a dead engine then why not go with an LT engine?
Cast crank ?
Yep. The only thing available for a 4.8 besides a custom billet crank.
What kind heads are you planning on putting on it
As much as I'd like to pull the "You've gotta wait and see!" card, we already published an article about the work Lingenfelter did. www.enginelabs.com/project-cars-2/project-engine-ls5-0/cnc-worship-inside-lingenfelters-ported-243-799-cathedral-heads/
@@EngineLabs thanks chief
Very cool, except I'm extremely disappointed that you did not make it 12:1 or even 12:1, closer to the Gen 3 Coyote 5.0.
The Gen-3 Coyote is direct-injected to get to that 12.0:1. A Gen-V would be comparable to a Gen-3 Coyote..
Building a "comparable" LS engine to a coyote: uses Manley rods and custom Diamond pistons, Comp Cam, billet sprocket, ARP parts, ATI dampener. Add comparable parts to a coyote, rev it to 9,500 rpm and see the difference. 😂
Comparable *BUDGET*. You kinda missed that part.
I mean the ‘03-‘04 Cobras had Manley rods stock.
LS7s had Titanium rods stock. What's the point there? The Coyote from the original LS vs. Coyote used Manley rods as part of its budget.
So long story short, it takes a fully built engine with high end components do run the RPMs a Coyote can do stock? Curious what it would do power wise.
Where are you getting that the Coyote is stock? The Coyote we're comparing to was built the the same budget and similar components.
While I appreciate this guy's dedication to precision, does he know how most of these 800-1000ish turbo LS motors are built?.....😆😂🤣
What? Wheres the dyno session to see the numbers? Motors built just toss it on lol. Been over a month. Need to see where this landed power wise lol
Shoulda just used a 5.7 block with the 4.8 crank. It would've been slightly larger but not much.
Or just used a 5.7....it's not like the 5.7 and 5br0 went head to head anyway. The 5.7 would've for sure thrashed the 5br0.
The 5.7 bore and 4.8 stroke would have been 313ci/5.15L - still enough for people to cry about. Besides the cost of aluminum 5.7s, we wanted the rigidity of the iron block.
@@EngineLabs if they want to cry about 9ci then they already lost.....they just don't know it.
@@EngineLabs if they want to cry about 9ci they already lost
I'm a Ford guy, but this is interesting. I would have just punched the iron 4.8 block out to the 5.7 bore. The extra few inches wouldn't have any real world effect on the output. Besides, the coyote has a few more valves. I'll be following this one. Cheers!
I could have done that, and it would have had the same cost on budget, because the pistons would have still been custom for the specific dome size. So, with all that, why not make it exactly 5 liters? It would make more sense for anyone replicating this to just use a 3.905 bore and off the shelf pistons though, for sure.
This was done years ago by Richard Holdner. The video is up on his channel. Used an LS3 block and a 4.8 crank 331 CI made over 600 HP.
Not a 5.0 tho lol. More like 5.4L
LOL.. you mean this? www.enginelabs.com/news/richard-holdener-tests-short-stroke-ls3-combinations-on-the-dyno/
"Lint free wipes" *lint all over the block mating surface after wiping cylinders*
Read what you just typed... "lint on the mating surfaces after wiping the cylinders..." Because no one wiped the deck, only the bores? Why would the deck be clean after wiping down a different part of the block?
Dang it.....I'd like to know how much overlap the cam has and what lifter you plan on running to 8k rpm.
I've got a 5.0 in my 2016 F150 with 438k miles on it.....I'm really interested to see where this goes.👍👍👍👍
The valvetrain video will be next, and I'll graph out all the valve events for that (right now I don't even know how much overlap there is), but we talked about picking the cam in-depth here: www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/video-picking-a-camshaft-for-ls5-0-with-ben-strader-of-efi-u/
@@EngineLabs ok. Very cool.
@@EngineLabs I just finished the video. I understand what the math is saying, and pushrod deflection is a very valid and overlooked point in the LS world. Where the overlap occurs(biased towards the exhaust side or intake) has been very important in my engine designs.
11/32 heavy walled pushrod is the minimum I can stand to run. That's been at the fault of availability and time. Lately I've been able to run 3/8 and 7/16 double tapered on solid roller builds.
I'm very curious to see how the camshaft choice pans out. Also the lifter and size wheel. Rocker arm choice too.
I've built 416s to go 8k and the comparison is intriguing....
Man fast forward to next video already.
@@EngineLabs btw, according to Wallace racing calculator, with adv 272°/280° and 112° lsa, that camshaft has 52° of overlap.
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP 2024
And Biden for the win 2024-25-26
Of course you can equal or better the horsepower. But you can’t do it while meeting the Coyote’s fuel efficiency or the strict EPA restrictions. Thats the point. Try this build under THOSE rules and you’ll fail every time. You also used all the high end parts you could find while Coyote is a mass production engine.
Man, you're WAY off in left field. The Coyote we are comparing it against is a full custom-built engine as well. Seriously, go read the linked article if you want to actually understand what is being discussed.