Air to Air refueling in F-16 - A Skill Issue
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- Опубликовано: 4 апр 2022
- I dunno, I had this recording sitting in my files, I would have otherwise deleted it but I believe this was my first attempt at AAR (air to air refueling) in the F-16. I'd say, though not perfect, it certainly isn't as hard as people make it out to be. Practice makes perfect, don't make it a skill issue and give up! Keep at it!!
Game: DCS F-16
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Игры
"Transfer complete. Disconnect." is BY FAR the most satisfying voice line to hear in all DCS. It's such a stress relief, that it gives me the chills.
The second I heard it is the second I realized I had been clenching my teeth the entire time because it was that line that made me release that clench
Specially when you hit the tanker only with 500 lbs left 🫣
You make it look so easy like if it was a Ace Combat refueling mini game.
It is easy
I thought landing on a carrier in AC2 on ps1 was hard when i played it as a kid
Those are actually bastards
Nah, looks like Super EF 2000 to me. Once you're plugged in, you can easily leave the thing be and get a coffee...
And I beg to differ. It is not easy, depending on hardware. In a Rift CV1 or Quest (vRes 1200 and 1600px), the lights are basically non-existent. That's literal hard mode, besides the fact that VR makes AAR much easier in drogue-and-probe refueling aircraft. TBH, I've yet to try with the G2 though, but I never did because my 1080 can't handle any higher rendered resolutions than those that are just suitable for the CV1 (rendered vRes somewhere in the range of 2000-2400px, the G2 needs 3k+ to actually be crisp) without dropping significantly below 30fps.
@@CakePrincessCelestia G2 you can clearly see the lights without issue
I’ve learned that hitting a tanker every time you go up for a mission helps immensely, it’s gets better and better every time until you drain the tanker with three bags and leave non for wingmen
Yeh i used to set aside 15min at end of every session, to try 1 plane at least. Repetition is key !
The only skill issue I have with Air to Air refueling is the fact that I am so skilled I don't even need fuel.
Honestly it's so much easier to do in BMS because you CAN ACTUALLY SEE THE LIGHTS
Agrees in Rift CV1...
Yeah, the lights are my biggest problem. Everything else is fine.
There are lights?
Yep, can agree
For most people that can do everything else just fine, I'd wager that it's a hardware or scaling issue. Most lower end and older sticks probably can't make such precise movements without major stick scaling changes, and even then some just stick or jump around on the axis due to age or cheap sensors.
To some extent you’re not wrong, but the biggest issue I see is that people react rather than anticipate. If you’re reacting you’re behind the aircraft.
My biggest issue is the change in the FCS when you are in "refueling mode". I have a good Virpil base wich is fine for normal flying, formation and all, but once I am in AAR mode, in theory I would have to change my Axis curves, because the inputs are somehow not ideal for AAR. When I change them for AAR, normal flying is kind of weird.
That's just one of the things in Sims, when the real plane has a force sensing stick and 99% of the users use a normal Joystick, it can be weird
@@kilux85 real FBW aircraft also change their curves for AAR also though, sale with landing gear dropping, that’s not just for the viper with a force sensing stick, but also with the F/A-18
@@ShawnHinck Yeah, wish we could do that :)
@@kilux85 it does do that, as soon as the refueling door opens the probe comes out or the landing gear drops the curve goes up I believe if I’m not mistaken saturation also comes down.
Ralfi the kinda guy to gussy up a thumbnail and upload a video of him doing not but A-A refueling to flex on discord.
Like most skills flying adjacent, it really comes down to taking a breath and really going slow and steady. Most people I see just get themselves into oscillations from over-correcting.
Nicely done !
Damn, Ralfi, you one smooth criminal at the stick :)
For me the most important thing to understand about AAR was that you mostly work with throttle and perform only minor corrections with the stick
People that struggle with AAR are simply fighting themselves
Or their crap controllers
As an FFB addict I can only agree to the controllers this. The lack of precision (compared to modern sticks out there) doesn't make it any easier, but I can't drop my trusty FFB. Someone who never had it and therefor wouldn't miss it is advised to get an extension for their stick and eventually taking the step up into VR.
That is some deep shit bro. Thanks, it changed my ways.
@@FuriouslyFurious I DEFINITELY noticed a absolutely colossal difference when switching from a Saitec X52 to a warthog. Suddenly I could do it. Mind you I still sucked, but I could actually remain connected for the whole refuel.
@@FuriouslyFurious I have friends with better sticks than me have problems refueling, yes it helps to have a proper stick, but if you still fight yourself when flying you'll never be steady enough for AAR or close formation.
Posing in perfection! :D
Awesome sauce, as some may say
Upgrading from a TM TWCS to a Virpil Mongoose CM3 makes a huge difference. The only aircraft I could easily refuel with the TWCS is the f-15c as its engines are no where near as laggy as other jets
for me what helped in AAR for viper was a video tutorial by 104th Maverick on youtube. The key for me was to maintain a consistent visual scan 1.hud, 2. tanker lights, 3.tanker wings and repeat that process. The other part for me was to manage the throttle constantly so you dont overshoot the tanker lights corrections. I doubt that there is a way to just "set the throttle and forget about it" you probably gotta keep adjusting the throttle. Ralfi didn't show his control inputs on the game overlay, but you can listen to his viper engine sounds and hear the throttle adjustment. When you're in the center zone it tends to be a bit easier I feel like.
NGL I was waiting for the tanker to get hit by a missile the whole time.
I am fairly confident with the Viper and Hornet. The Flight Computer makes it easier, just a matter of power management for me. It's the Tomcat that I routinely struggle with. I have never been in a position where I needed to refuel the A-10, and I am not really a Mirage pilot so I can't speak for that either.
Ralfidude just dropping a "git gud" and leaving.
Tips i find help are pull up bingo page (list>2) so you see transfer happening, and remember boom comes to you (whereas the basket you align) so just focus on keeping your lights in middle an wait few secs, dont chase boom at all. Also be ready for the lag in speed as you take on weight. 😉👍
here are a few tips for newer fellow pilots who want to extend their F-16 legs:
- if the jet does not have any armament, deploy the air breaks slightly. this makes the jet fly a bit more sluggishly giving you more wiggle room
- initially use the autopilot to fly formation with the tanker for a bit, once comfortable then attempt to refuel
- duplicate the DED bingo page on the bottom of your HUD so you don't have to take your eyes off of the HUD
- you can gauge the speed of the tanker by flying next to it in formation and lining up the two engines on the tanker to over lap. once you have them overlapped, your air speed is the exact same air speed as the tanker.
- avoid the jet engine's backwash of the tanker ... it will throw you around!
- flight gear makes all the difference! the issue might not be you and might be your controls
- check your controller curves! maybe your settings are too sensitive or not sensitive enough
- it is much harder to do this in VR since you have much harder time spotting the symbology at the bottom of the tanker
- Track IR zooming is cheating! you can't squeeze your eyeballs IRL to get more range ... JK play the game how you enjoy it, no one is here to gate keep. if it helps you seeing the symbology better zoom in.
- if you didn't manage to do it first time around, don't be discouraged, try a little bit every day.
- it is not a tanker boom measuring contest, if you don't want to do A2A refueling and spend your time having fun do that instead
- you might actually be better off landing and refueling than to do A2A refueling! maps in DCS are not really long enough to require you to do A2A refueling .... yet
To smooth your clearly a robot.
My first attempt created some memorable quotes in our discord.
Stick it in me!
It's pointing towards my hole! That's a good thing.
Is it in or is it just my imagination?
Just to name a few
Nicely done! I'm really pretty good but that was perfect.
It can be a peripheral issue as well, but we should tell em to "get gud".
That was smoother than a wet otter👍
It can also be a hardware issue. I upgraded from an 11 year old warthog to a new warbrd and I did a perfect AAR in the Viper on my first try, where it was next to impossible a couple hours before on my old stick.
The TMWH base is garbish, it acts as if there was a black hole pulling the stick to the center position. As soon as you're operating just around that, fine movements are virtually impossible, especially since the gimbal isn't the best either. The WarBRD base comes with nice CAMs for the spring system which allows for much smoother inputs, similar to what only FFB sticks could do before. They're still lacking the dynamic spring forces though :)
Extreme 3D Pro here. I think the hardware argument is hollow.
@@rjtoten extreme 3d pro is a good quality stick.
Doing this is straight pain. Hands down the hardest thing you could do in this game imo
If we can have an FLOLS HUD we deserve a tanker lights HUD
Bro i hate you and love you for this. I struggle for ages, trying to get my shitty opinion validated and you hit me with his. I want to cry now.
ralfi, what are your curves for the falcon if you use any and what hotas do currently use for dcs? also a question concerning the cat 1 and 3 mode for the fcs do you use them at all?
relaxing
I can AAR the F-18 no problem but the F-16 with the boom has given me problems for years even though the reverse is true for how hard they are IRL.
Thank you for flexing on us ralfi
I found refuelling in a turn way easier with the 16 than the 18, everything is the same as when straight…but you’re turning.
Hell, the only planes I've been able to AAR in are the Hog and Tomcat. Granted, it's only for about 5lbs of fuel, but still. It's 5 more than I had. Even if I burned it just looking at the guages..
Those are the hardest ones! Except maybe the harrier.
Slow and steady approach, small inputs, wait a second or two after each input for it to actually take effect, and spend a minute or three sitting a plane length back from the refueling position while your get your trim set up for straight and level flight at tanker speeds and inside the tankers wake.
Also figuring out some lineups for the aircraft in question is helpful. In the A-10 I found that bracketing the tankers engines inside that rounded area of the uprights on the windshield really helped me keep ahead of the necessary corrections.
@@dpidcoe For me, the hardest one has been the Hornet. I haven't dared try the Viper yet. The lag between throttle input and actual engine output drives me nuts. The Cat is so much more on the ball. That, and when those wings are out, her roll authority drops making it harder for me to start wabbling. That's just me though.
@@audunskilbrei8279 I find the Hog pretty easy, but I've also been flying it the longest. I find the Tomcat and Jeff are super hard for me. I also find the Hornet, Viper, and Eagle fairly easy.
I'm just starting my DCS adventure, and I'm not looking forward to learning A2A refueling. Keep up the good work on the channel, I love the content.
Honestly mate once you get comfortable with it it's one of the more relaxing things in a sortie (unless at night or bad weather). It opens a lot of doors in what you can do mission wise. Just remember, find what works for you and slow and easy wins the race. Small inputs and corrections.
Look forward to the day you manage to remain in contact for the first time. It feels awesome and it only gets easier from there.
I feel half of it is managing the throttle without thinking about it and you'll practice this every time you land (assuming you pay attention to your AOA on approach). From there it's not far to formation flying and eventually AAR.
The easiest planes to learn on are the ones that have refuelling probes (F18, Mirage, F14, etc.) and the easiest way to prepare yourself is to just practice stable flight while in a slight turn, which can be practiced by formation flying
Its one of the first things i wanted to do in the a-10 which i bought 8 years ago, just now bought my second plane, the f18c and did go for it immediately
@@sourkraut7393 In the end, it is like playing an instrument which comes down to lots of practice. You might be raging when you just can't get those arpeggios right, but once you got the hang of it, it suddenly feels like second nature...
It's why I switched to helicopters. Can't suck at refueling if I don't have to.
That UH-60L mod would like to have a chat with you... :D
That is cool
AAR in small fighters is one of the easiest things to do for actual military pilots. The old, big heavy jets are such a handful when having to take gas.
Not just skill issue; they are making it into an equipment issue. Some people claiming that VKB or Virpil would magically make them able to do AAR.
very clean....bravo.....i still get 2-3 discons everytime
very zen
People complain they can't revo in a left/right bank when i show them how i do on the f16
i complay i can't revo on a straight line. am i bugged?
If you stay calm and have the right joystick settings it is easy. And it‘s helpful to anticipate the inputs like half a second before.
I have been trying to do this for months. I can connect, but that's about it.
I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I can stick to the left wing of the tanker like a sticker. But as soon as I drop into pre contact, I start drifting side to side. If I stick with it long enough, I can get under the tanker, but I start drifting again. From time to time, I keep drifting up.
I find the key is to have stick inputs so miniscule that you can barely even feel your controls move, and to anticipate the drift that your inputs create. Not really a flex but I can tank the F-16 pretty easy on a 30$ Logitech Extreme 3D Pro that has about 3 degrees of play on all axis's. It's just practice and patience, don't white knuckle your controls and breathe.
It's working fine for me in the F/A-18 but in the F-16 i'm moving all over the place. It feels like the error margin is a lot smaller with the boom and i'm lucky if it connects.
yo falfidude why is dcs world crashing everytime i try and join anything or try playing practice/training?
I actually think the viper is a pretty easy platform to tank with, the eagle is much harder for me with the boom.
And I’m over here trying to get the maverick to handoff properly…
I wrote a rap song about DCS A2A refueling. It's one and only lyric is "F**K!!!!!!!!"
Pretty much the TL;DL of any rap "song" :D
The people who claim AAR is hard just haven't done it enough.
the F-14 is the only aircraft that feels truly difficult to aerial refuel.
Harrier wants a word.
The two types of air refueling have their pro's and cons. Aircraft that use Navy style are harder to get into the drogue but it is easy once you get in. The Air force style of refueling is basically the opposite, easy to get in but hard to keep in.
I can't even make it touch the damn thing
Was this a reupload, cause im awfully sure ive seen this before
A huge part is hardware but also practice, I've helped so many people in dcs that just say "that looks impossible" and won't even try.
What I have experienced is that it IS a stick issue. With a bad dead zoned sloppy stick like my Saitech X52 it is a nightmare to A2A refuel. It´s a completely different experience with something like a Warthog stick.
While not impossible, I have a TM warthog, and the falcon is the hardest thing to refuel in DCS by far.
I much prefer the basket!
only time I've ever managed to pull off AAR was in VTOLVR's F45 once. It was the most satisfying thing.
I pulled it off in the F/A-26B, it’s actually really easy in there if you know how to manage the controls
At least this one is a bit smoother than your earlier a-10 attempts
Its not that difficult I think the biggest issues for some players is they might have huge curves for their stick or an issue I had was force feedback being turned on in settings which makes the flcs mess up and act like theres a huge curve. Or the f16 throttle response, its terrible and you have to anticipate your movement nearly 3-5 seconds ahead of time if you start falling behind.
👌
Doesn't beat the wonderful Ballet on Strauss' Blue Danube if you ask me 😁
Sure make it look easy just to frustrate those of us who go guns on the tanker every time :-P
I want to see the whole thing.
I just bought a gtx 750ti to replace my gt 730. Can’t wait to finally get back into dcs!
👍👍👍
You forgot to say na nah na nah boo boo at the end you show off. 😉
recording quality is impressive. Could you tell me how do you achieve such quality ?
Good Computer, Maxed out Graphics.
ready pre contact
Disconnect
Finally did my first refuel in the A-10....the F14 is still a nightmare though. Is it even possible?
As Jester says, use the force, Luke.
This is hard, ngl, I’ve tried it in dcs and everytime I just kept splashing the tanker
replicate that interstellar docking parody in dcs that somebody did with a hornet refueling and the refueler going down
I've never achieved this. It's very hard with keyboard and T.16000M joystick. I only use keyboard for throttle.
I had more issues of the ai just making up a fligth path as they go.
I have seen those fuckers just out of the blue take a turn while im fueling several nauticle miles from the point, whit no warning.
But as long as the ai dont get any brigth ideas it goes well.
F18 is different since it has the basket
It doesn’t necessarily have to be a skill issue ! I used to have a x52 and I couldn’t aar even after trying hours and hours days on days ! In a matter of 2 hours I had my first uninterrupted aar with a new tm warthog and since never another problem regardless of plane !
I know some people do it with keyboard but it’s like with most things in life everyone is different!
If you try it it with a flopped out old piece of ….. it might not be your fault just saying
It's easy in the f16 if you don't cause PIO (Pilot induced oscillation) and know how to read the green box thingies on the belly of the tanker. The tanker literally steers the probe into the refuelling port for you if you can keep your plane still and in the green
You can still PIO in the F-16 when refueling. For example drifting up, down, left, right. Also when in low speed it is easy to make to hard of a adjustment and stall out and drop altitude. It's pretty easy to oscillate in any aircraft but the F-16 isn't exempt.
@@fbglitches7125 I never indicated anything about the f16 being exempt from PIO. I was simply describing that if you do not cause pilot induced oscillation it becomes way easier.
I used to yank around the joystick and really mess myself up until I learnt to be gentle and only make the tiniest movements (when doing something as challenging and focussed as A/A Refuelling).
When I said it's easy in the f16 I was only considering my own experience. After getting a better control setup and having around 700 hours on DCS I can see how much more talented I have become, but no where near the best!
To anyone who is struggling to do this: Just follow the lights on the belly of the aircraft
me who struggles in the f18 to AAR, mad props to the people who can, ive got it once or twice but i can do turns and the wobbles screw me up
Get some regular practice in, and stop when you start getting frustrated, it gets much easier very quickly.
Practice flying in formation as stable as possible without refueling, that will also help. And in the Hornet, you can switch on that ATTH AP mode, makes the controls much finer, but you need to stay close to the center, otherwise it gets kicked out and you're all over the place again.
damm i really did get good , i can tank F14>18> harrier > 16 > a10c , Practice is Key for sure!
Skill Issue Resolved
I mean yeah with 9000$ gear it isn't that hard after all don't give up people
Ask any Falcon user for advice. ;-)
Do you use rudder at all?
never
My problem isn't my skill, its that I'm playing on a Logitech 3d extreme xD.
"One degree? Ok 10% rpm it is"
1440P. / 60FPS nice.
*skill issue*
ooh you're ard
docking issue
🤷🏻♂️
No need to flex bro
Would've been better if you had your controls overlay up, just saying
"look at me guys, I can refuel in the F-16!!!!!"
So can everyone who flies the thing for more than a week, kinda cringe video ngl.
Edit: I see a lot of people complaining how it's a hardware issue, not really, if you practice enough you can even do it with an Xbox controller, it's literally not as difficult as everyone is making it out to be.
I find AAR easy in the F-16 compared to the other jets in DCS.
LoL I laugh when I see children in the comments referencing Ace combat....... I guess they don't understand the difference between a simulation and a game........ does anybody else find it hilarious that they think the two things are similar?
Honestly, I think the F-16 is the easiest to refuel on from all the ones I've tried
I would give that title to the Hornet. At least I was able to fill it up completely on the first try after more than a year of not flying it.
@@twoknife Hmm could be, I think Hornet can get trickier due to slower throttle response and might get harder to get visual references due to the canopy frame masking stuff, especially when refueling from something like an SB3, while Viper has not only clean view but also a general reference and the tanker lights (forgot the name, the ones that indicate you how off you are) are all you need to align yourself, that being said I prefer booms to baskets so I might be really biased here
showoff :^)
First
Grattis då, höjdpunkten på ditt liv är nu nådd.
Still wish we had the KC-10 so at least have brighter lights to see
Imagine the tankers being playercontroled too 😂
Players could at least be flying perfect circles which the AI is incapable of (they keep banking back and forth randomly for me if set to orbit). But you might end up being trolled hard, by either that player or just the legendary netcode.