Gavin please let me commend you for being one of the few channels not trying to radicalize us. Your channel feels like a place of rest and safe harbor for me. Bless you brother.
I would wish for every professing Christian in my town to watch this with thoughtful humility. I pastor in Moscow, Idaho, a gravitational center for the mood you are describing.
I believe in a young Earth, but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. It doesn't change the gospel if you believe in an old Earth. I believe that we should be firm on the essentials only. I like this video.
Gavin you’re my hero, man! Keep fighting the good fight. It’s worth it. We can’t give up on the church and let uncharitable “fundamentalists” destroy the body of Christ. Thank you for your work! Praying for you.
In scripture, I see more about division caused by departing from the faith than by reacting to doctrinal departure. Whereas the latter can motivate giving up on the church, the former directly leads into it. Therefore, exclusively focusing on either is unhelpful. Truth and love must be balanced. If I must choose between the two, I will take truth. Love is a truth, so, truth is self-correcting. Love without truth leads to males changing clothes in women’s locker rooms. Atop this, if you want to see “unloving,” just look at the profit-centered message of the Word-of-Faith movement, which developed out of the Pentecostal claim that healing is in the atonement, which has a history of its own.
@ricksonora6656. I think you’re on the right track here. And as much as I love Gavin, I see him as (slightly) out in the wilderness. When Christian, in Pilgrim’s Progress, finds himself in the the smoky darkness of the Valley of the Shadow, there is a ditch on one side of the road and a quagmire on the other. Falling off to either side is to endanger one’s soul. Gavin seems far more terrified by Evangelicals “with Fundamentalist tendencies” than by Evangelicals in cahoots with an encroaching liberalism. He’s relying too much on Marsden, who is more of a post-conservative than a straightforward Evangelical. Ortlund got his doctorate at Fuller, I believe. Does he not realize that, though founded as an Evangelical institution, it gave up on inerrancy (and thus quit being Evangelical) long, long ago? Gavin warns us of the specter of theological liberalism, but REFUSES to acknowledge the liberalizing tendencies of Big Eva, with which he associates. The way it looks to me, is that between the likes of Russell Moore and the likes of Megan Basham is a huge middle ground occupied by exactly no one. (Well, I try stake out a plot of sod there, but it’s kind of like Wiley the Coyote finding a place to stand between the cliff he leaves and the cliff he’s heading to.) I can relate to Gavin when he warns us of a danger on the right. And I can relate to Megan when she warns us of a danger on the left. But they need to listen to one another!! Gavin is falling into the ditch, and Megan is falling into the quagmire. And the solution is not as simple as calling a ceasefire and asking (a la Rodney King), “Can’t we all just get along?”
@@HannahClaphamHmmm, you may be too close. I think a clearer picture from a more distanced vantage point is that Ortlund is standing in the desirable center - of a dying intelligent evangelicalism (of the heritage of Carl Henry, Don Carson, Robert Saucy, Tom Schreiner, RC RT France, FF Bruce, CS Lewis, John Stott, Bruce Waltke, Dallas Willard, Tim Keller, Walter Kaiser - among many other luminaries who have nobly carried much of the best of evangelicalism of the past 70 years. Meanwhile, there are the fundamentalist attacks that come from the right, and the progressive giveaways that come from the left. Gavin has just about nailed the proper center, but the wings are growing and the center is being abandoned. In this case the center is not compromise, but the balanced target. The challenge from the fundamentalist on the right is that they imagine themselves to be the protectors of the center of the target and see their calling as to engage in polemics. But of course, the biblical target is living graciously according to truth and love, following on the way of Jesus, submitted to the Word, under the power of the Spirit. And doing so with an awareness of history and with discernment of our present context. Against detractors of the day, Gavin is heroically nailing it.
You need to understand that fundamentalism is not one understanding. I’m very fundamentalist, but in the best sense of the word. I think many people stereotype fundamentalist and make them look like ignorants, although there are some that actually are ignorant and may go to an extreme belief. I think people that attack fundamentalism are more fundamentalist than what they think. Now I may believe in a younger earth, but it’s just my belief and how it is revealed to me through the church, and through scripture. But it’s not a fundamental belief. I will not attack a brother for believing in an older earth, because there is enough evidence to for both sides to be debatable. Now it’s true that some Christians are becoming more progressive or liberal, and that’s just wrong, but we can accuse someone liberal or progressive if a brother believes in a older earth, in a theist evolution theory, ..etc. Those are secondary believes that doesn’t affect the Gospel that we both share to the world. I don’t agree with extreme fundamentalist that dogmatize certain beliefs, and sometimes they even become sectarian and some even embrace a KJV-onlyst system. Most fundamentalist I know are not legalistic or dogmatic. I think it’s the ignorant and sectarians fundamentalist that are hurting the church and the real liberal and progressive class christians. Now even within the Church fathers they had differences, but were still in communion. I love all of my brothers and sisters. God bless you all.
"We're so scared of liberalism that we feel like we can cut corners" That really nails it. I've had conversations repeatedly with people where I say we still have to love our enemies and treat them with grace and compassion and I've been called a liberal for this because it's just so much easier to hit back.
Gavin, I think this was a very important video to make. As you say, this is not the end of the discussion, it is an important one to have, and this is a great way to get that dialogue going. Fortunately, I have found in the local churches I have attended, in two different states (one with you) and one in Texas, I do not see the vitriolic style of attacking different points of view on second order issues at all. Different views exist, but generosity and humility mark the dialogue we have. And yet, in social media, and some recent books, the dialogue does not show the fruit of the Spirit. Confronting error is necessary, but it must be done with an earnest desire for truth and love for our brothers and sisters clearly evident. As you have done here, we need to call it out, shine a light on the nastiness. I love your call at the end, for us to pray for revival. Let us be humble, repentant where we need to be and ask for a mighty work of God that transcends and confronts our petty tendencies. Another great video, Gavin. A well-developed perspective and a very helpful historical context. Thank you.
"Confronting error is necessary, but it must be done with an earnest desire for truth and love for our brothers and sisters clearly evident." Amen. Very well said, Colin! Thank you brother.
In Revelation, John said to the Church in Thyatira "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel". I am sure Jesus and Apostles exercised controls, but they did not hesitate to call out false teachings either. I think the modern American sensibility where "being cordial and nice" somehow makes statements more truthful is a false dichotomy. No more calling for revivals. The Bible calls for moderation. The First Great Awakening was helpful. The Second Great Awakening created most prolific heretical groups of modern times (Mormons, JW, etc). The Third Great Awakening (arguable) created Pentecostalism and other Spiritual gifts abusing denominations. Modern Americans lunacies including Christianity is spreading to the world impacting negatively. NO MORE calling for revivals...the world can't take anymore of American "Christianity".
@@thomasc9036 I would agree with you that cordiality is not by itself a test of truth. I don't know enough to comment on whether there is a current tendency in America to correlate the two. Sadly, within the church, I see both truth and falsehood and likewise both cordiality and vitriol. Not sure if your comment was in relation to mine. My comment was on the need for truth and love. An entirely different thing. Love of course being something that we are commanded to show each other and the way that the world knows we are Christians. That was an interesting position you stated on revival - one I had not heard before. I see the call for renewal and revival clearly in Scripture (Isaiah 57:15, Ps 85 for example) and so am compelled to pray for revival. Also, not sure what you think of when you pejoratively describe 'American' Christianity. I think, we only want the Biblical Christianity of Jesus, whether you are American, Zambian (like me) or anything else.
@@colinmichaelis3379 Truth and love is what the American Christianity overemphasize nowadays. However, American Christians are lobsided where they care ore about sinners and criminals while the sheep and victims are afterthoughts. It is mostly concerned with outer appearances of "truth and love". We lack discipline and control which are part of truth and love as well. Isaiah 57 and Ps 85 are not calling out the kind of revivals most Americans are thinking of. It's a call for Israel to repent before the judgment which didn't happen and God judge them through the Assyrian and Babylonian Empire. It's a severe ad terrifying warning against idolatry of Israel. If you study the First Great Awakening, you will learn that while it had many wonderful moments, American Christians shifted from historical Christianity to personal Christianity. It was the beginning of Protestants' deemphases of the Christian History. This shift had massive impact on later generations and still is pervasive in America where individualism is the most important to the majority of American Christians. I am of Korean descent. When Christian missions came to Korea during the late 19th and early 20th century, they were different than later missionaries that came after the 50s. Many pastors were very concerned with different American Christianity brought by later missionaries and some of them prayed that Americans stop sending missionaries.
Great video Gavin thank you for taking the time to do this. God bless you and your family and your ministry. You are helping a lot of us think through things and become better followers of Christ
Great video, Gavin! It's a tough time to live as a Christian. The whole world is becoming more polarized, and that is sadly permeating the church as well. Because of you, I have become willing to die on far fewer hills than before. Thanks for your thought-provoking content!
This might be the best treatment of this issue I've ever seen. Your gentleness and love of truth comes through beautifully. Thank you for all your efforts here, Dr. Ortlund.
Hello Gavin. Thank you for articulating what I have been feeling and struggling through these last years but I have never been able to put into words. I fell in fundamentalist tendencies that did not make me love my brothers in Christ. Now in recent years I have been loving more my brothers and being in community.
Thank you, Gavin. My pastor has started to espouse some fundamentalist viewpoints from the pulpit that were concerning. I spoke with him privately and he confirmed my fears that he’s aligning himself with some outspoken fundamentalists/Christian nationalists. I appreciate your contribution in speaking to this wave of fundamentalism, and helping me realize I’m not crazy or off-base with my concerns. Praying for you, brother!
Pastor Gavin, despite difference i suspect we may have on non-biblical issues, such as politics, or non-essential biblical doctrines. I cannot stress how much I agree with you on these cultural issues. I know you are reluctant to address them at times, but your diagnosis is so sharp and your ability to think through them rationally and biblically make you one of the most important voices in navigating this foggy sea. As a young man, raised Pentecostal, and believing we were the only ones to have everything right. listening to you has educated me and allowed me to develop a balanced perspective of the kingdom of God, theology and the Bible. You are not a lone voice crying in the wilderness, people are listening and you are influencing hearts and minds. All Soli Deo Gloria. In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, Liberty; In all things, Charity.
Such a sobering reminder. If we jettison compassion and kindness as we stand for the Truth of the Gospel, we can utterly destroy our witness of that very grace we have all benefitted from. For me personally, the most painful landscape of all this has been made real in this way: I am preparing to meet with people I love and have worshipped with for years, family or friends even, and find myself rehearsing conversations ahead of time so I don’t use the wrong language, imply any kind of disagreement, or show empathy for “them.” It is exhausting and crushing. And it makes me want to hide.
Keep it up Brother. I love your irenic tone. And your facial expressions! The Shepherds for Sale controversy is so painful for you. I too am suffering an untrue accusation/misunderstanding and we carry on, following our Lord. As an old man, I say, Enjoy them while you’re young: your kids, your joints and your studies. God is good.
I have never seen you pour out your heart so much, and it has been refreshing. It is so necessary for pastors who deal with people's hearts and struggles at times to come out with an open heart as well, and I commend you for it. Thanks for your work, Gavin!
I am so so sorry that you are going through this. You have always been level-headed, looking at issues and fighting for and standing up for what really matters in doctrine. Please know you have support from people like me who cherish your work and your channel.
Solid. I don’t know you and cannot vouch for you but based on your expressed views and admonitions here you merit additional attention and your message here deserves amplification and support.
Thank you so much for this, Gavin. I have been dismayed by several podcasts that I started watching but gave up because of the tendency to pull down other ministries. It was the spirit in which it was done that distressed me. So much that bordered on hatred and vitriol. No sense of broken heartedness or praying for those in error and those deemed in error. I wonder how many started out with good purpose - to shine light on darkness and expose wrong behaviour or teaching - but then as time went on and they had an audience to reach and needed new material and they started nit-picking at other ministries. I don’t know but the pride and self righteousness of some of these people just radiate from them. I never watch them now. Your podcast makes me remember that I need to pray for them. I have always been drawn by your Godly, humble spirit, Gavin, and am very grateful for your balanced teaching. May God bless and watch over you, and protect you and your family. Unfortunately the most ravening wolves can often come from within. It must grieve the heart of our Lord.
Well stated! The self appointed fundie police pursuing their so-called ministry of polemics (getting views by trashing others) is as damaging to the body as it is addicting to the hooked subscribers. There seems to be no faster way to grow a “Christian” YT channel today than by tearing down public ministries.
Wow! This is so timely! Every Christian needs to hear to understand what’s going on in the evangelical world. I have felt this dynamic for quite awhile and you so helpfully explained well exactly what’s going on! Thank you, Gavin. Now I have a resource to explain it. Keep up the good work!
This was a very good start into the parallels between our current struggles and the Liberal/Fundamentalist Wars that began just over a century ago. Appreciate your work, looking forward to more of this. -A YEC Guy
Gavin I grew up in a church that was a Premillennial and young earth creation as you described. I am now in my 60’s and am still Premill and can absolutely see your point and agree with your analysis! I am also a Patron of your channel. My wife and I have learned much through your work. We will be increasing our support! Continue the excellent work, the Body of Christ needs it!
As my theology grows more and more Catholic, I find myself liking Gavin more and more for some reason. It’s nice to get a plain and clear explanation on things sometimes. I love the channel.
I think that's what's pretty amazing about him, and why I de-converted from Catholicm. You can't get mad at someone who is charitable and has surprisingly little bias compared to other figures online
I truly appreciate your speaking to this. Church renewal and unity is a deep life passion of mine as well. I am heartbroken at the consistent tearing and devouring I am seeing within the church as the broken and lost world watches. Please keep talking.
Agreed. I think a lot of YEC's(not all because there are those who are intellectual honest. My pastor for instance resolves the "Light before Luminaries" problem by pointing out that God is the light) don't want to admit that a hyperliteral reading of Genesis also has textual challenges that go away with an old-Earth view. Like for me, I have 4 question for those with that view: 1. Why would the animals need to be "subdued"(Gen 1:28) if they were peaceful before the Fall? 2. How could plants be food(1:29-30) without death? 3. How could Adam and Eve have a frame of reference for death(2:17; 3:1-4) if it didn't exist in some form? 4. Without death, what purpose did the eternal-life giving Tree of Life have and why did it need to guarded after the Fall?(3:22-24)
This was really good thank you. When you said, “Am I the only one seeing these things?!” I have been saying the same thing for awhile now so it’s comforting to know others are seeing it too!
One thing that my dad reminded me of when I first began to realize the dangers of fundamentalism (he was so unbelievably kind and patient with me when I was very persuaded by fundamentalism) was to not become "fundamentalist" and uncharitable towards fundamentalists. Had to delete Twitter just to help me grow in love and charity so I no longer saw the worst in people first but focused on seeing them in love. In learning to see people in love, though, I also had to learn it doesn't mean seeing the best only, it means seeing them for who they really are, just like God does with us, and loving them in all their beautiful messiness. Hardest thing in the world to do. But it's what God did with me, so how can I not do it with others?
In the wake of your (mis)treatment by Megan Basham, I am sure the difficulties Christian have when they disagree have been on your mind. I commend you for studying this problem, and the gap between fundamentalism and evangelicalism is an excellent place to start. In my studies of the complex relationships that exist between Christianity and science, the bitter debates between young- and old-earth creationists (e.g., AiG vs. RTB and Biologos) have been especially troubling. Your thoughts on "theological triage" and church history are on-target and helpful. May the Holy Spirit give you wisdom as you continue to wrestle with these issues, and may your voice help reunify the Church around the gospel of Jesus Christ!
I think you and I have different opinions on church fathers. Puritans are not church fathers. They are a far away from them. Basil the great, Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Origen, Clement of Rome… some of these people were disciples of disciples. Some date to 35 BC. Closer to Jesus. These are my feelings and opinions. And if we want revival, it brings people together who have little in common. So people need to deal with their egos, and have Christs humility on them. I really don’t think people understand the cost of revival. There needs to be unity before, and obviously there isn’t.
Just for clarity, AIG is Biblical creationist. Biologos is the extreme of theistic evolution, wherein God only kick-started evolution, then let it run its course. The essential issues in these debates are not science versus faith but science versus science and determining what the Scripture actually teaches. Also, each position impacts how we see God. One holds God as a genius creator, while the other makes God look like a mass murderer. You can appreciate why sometimes the debate gets heated.
Thank you Gavin for all the work and pain you've had to endure to be able to produce a video like this. As a father of several children, there is nothing more grievous to me than to see my family members fighting and hurting each other. I'd be willing to die for them, but have never been crucified for them. I cannot imagine how much we grieve the Holy Spirit when we spend our time fighting amongst ourselves over 2nd order issues. Upon our death, its doubtful we will be handed a comprehensive theology exam.
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God has changed the contents of my heart after watching this video. Thank you, Pastor Gavin. All glory to God.
Excellent overview, Gavin. As a Young-Earth Lutheran in Sweden you have my full support. It seems there is a need for a new way of navigating in the current landscape, just as Neo-Evangelicalism was a new way in the 1950's.
You are spot on Gavin! Observing these reactionary and divisive tendencies all over the place. Really helpful to put it in context of what we’ve seen happen before!
I'm glad someone's talking about this; keep it up. When non Protestants criticize Protestantism (or especially low church Protestantism) for being "chaotic", this sort of infighting is more or less what they're talking about. I once attended a Western Rite Orthodox service where Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and I think even some Anglicans worshipped together and they all loved it because those variants of Christianity actually get along pretty well these days. When different variants of Christianity get along it allows Christians to explore the wider world of Christianity, which is very enriching. We live in a unique place in history where so many denomination coexist in the same geographical area, so the opportunity is ripe. Gavin's solutions of engaging in good faith dialogue with those of differing views and studying church history are spot on.
One note of blessings personally - as I work through my Master's in Theology - your channel/content has been a helpful resource (just finished Historical Theology - my final was on Chalcedonian Christology). To your point - I think you strike a pretty good balance with this video. I was meditating on some of your points...and as a pastor/music minister...aside from any "government mandates" or "liberal theologies" I think the thing that you spoke of that I resonated with most was - how the people of God are treating each other. A number of people in a church I served seemingly, overnight, categorized others according to various ideologies and chose sides (pro TGC, Tim Keller, John Piper...etc.). I found it to be a losing battle as I sought for unity in the person of Christ - I am not specifically pro or anti - other than ...does it promote the Person and Work of Christ in the local assembly - for the transformation of the heart and the healing of humanity all for the glory of God....thoughts?
Since you asked for a comment: excellent video brother. Very helpful, keep it up! One thing the internet definitely could use is more RUclipsrs/etc. to make videos calling Christians online to two things:(1) local church participation and (2) not arguing and being ungracious and outright unpleasant in the comments section
Gavin, I so appreciate your heart in this conversation. Our Savior prayed, “Father make them one as You and I are One.” Divisiveness, slander, and gossip are tools of the enemy that are crafted and sharpened for use against the Church. To many of us are gladly wielding the enemy’s tools against our brethren when Christ should draw us together so supernaturally that the world believes He was sent by the Father and that they are loved.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this Gavin - you’ve voiced just what I’m feeling. I’ve been worried about this and the division that it causes, particularly the distraction away from the gospel. I know that I’ve felt puffed up in fear by what people have said about what’s going on in the world and in the church - without a redirection to the Lord it’s only left me despairing and fearful of doing anything at all. I would love for people to discuss how we ought to pray for the world and for each other, because there’s hope in our redeemer. I pray that we would seek to truly listen to one another and to remember the grace that was poured out to us. I pray that in all the confusion around we wouldn’t be lost in it but unified, and in the unity of the body that the world will see that the Lord is alive. It grieves me that the church is fractured in places at the moment, and that differences of opinion can lead people to fear that people are untrustworthy or have left the faith, but I’m thankful that the Lord’s ever interceding and never finished with us, he’s so patient. I’m thankful for conversations like this that are honest and spread hope - in a sea of voices that often spread anxiety, discussions like yours encourage and give permission to listen and to discern, and to seek the Lord on every issue which is most important. Thank you for your ministry.
I recently finished a biography on Martyn Lloyd-Jones and got me so curious about that season with John Stott! So hard to see two people I respect so opposed. Maybe a future video??? Gavin, you are a blessing! How hard it must be to keep such humility, clarity, and calm in the face of so much opposition.
"I think we need to pray for revival. That's what I want to give my whole life to. I basically feel like I'm here to try to walk with Jesus, take care of my family, try to be a catalyst for the third great awakening. That's it. It's really as simple as that." Thanks Gavin.
Thank you so much. Expressing the fruit of the Spirit while seeking, proclaiming, and defending truth is vitally important. God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I hope you can find Anabaptist and Pentecostal and Wesleyan proponents of theological triage, an irenic spirit, and assurance in the Gospel to team up with you to take this desperately needed approach into their worlds too!
William Jennings Bryan being an older earth creationist blew my mind. Truth is stranger than fiction wow. Such a great video Gavin. This is so true of American culture. Let’s keep our eyes on Christ and model him on the stormy weather of our society. Love ya brother 🤜🤛 Keep up the good work. And yes - amen to revival.
Thank you so much for this video. I can’t fully explain why it feels very helpful but I have been searching for truth in different denominations and I think this convicted me to be sure of what I’m actually looking for
Thank you so much for this thought provoking video. I needed to hear this - I am far too easily pulled towards Fundementalism without discerning what is and isn't worth disagreeing over. We appreciate the work you do Gavin!
Excellent video! I want to read Marsden's book now. Thank you for your contribution here! Praying for you as you deal with the fallout of misinfornation/slander.
Good book. Marsden's earlier book "Fundamentalism and American Culture" is even better because it explains the cultural assumptions underlying both Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism. His book on Fuller uses Fuller as case study his earlier book.
Gavin……thankyou man for this video. I appreciate your measured and reasoned teaching. I live in Greenville SC so you can ‘reasonably’ conclude where I went to school for my undergraduate degree. So grateful for your sharing your study of the early church history into the medieval period ….so glad to have found you and Mike Winger on RUclips. Continue on proclaiming truth. ❤
Well said. I definitely agree on the issue of many not knowing church history. For most of my walk, I was taught that anyone who has a “liberal” interpretation of scripture is that way solely because of the modern world and that “no Christians agreed with them until recently.” I still have a lot of work to do but that view is just ignorant of church history.
thank you sir. we all need that reminder at one point i got in the bandwagon but began to feel convicted in my spirit. we all are diff in our learning curve and we should be patient and trust the Lord as HE molds us and shape us. its seems everyone want to loosely call everyone a heretic. i appreciate your teaching and patience!
Thank you so much Gavin, so appreciate your willingness to learn even from those who oppose you and to humbly example how to love and lead through these treacherous times.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for speaking on this issue. You are not the only one seeing these issues in the church today. These words need to be spoken, especially in today's climate. We need to be fastened firmly to the head, which is Christ. We are defined by our identity with Christ - not by who we are opposed against.
Wow Gavin. I didn’t realize how many personal ramifications there are for you to try to promote truth with love. Please know that there are many people out there that are supporting you and are sincerely seeking peace in the church. Praying that you would have strength to continue despite these obstacles!
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" and pushed him over.
True story: I was saved and baptized in independent fundamentalist baptist churches. I was educated at an IFB school, and worked my first pastoral jobs in those churches. At one point, the church I was a youth pastor at had to let me go due to budget issues. I was then hired by a *Southern Baptist* Church, and my IFB boss/pastor said, “Why would you go work for the Southern Baptists?! They are the enemy!” I left fundamentalism and never returned.
Confessing Christians NEED more of the WORD in their hearts. The WORD corrects this kind of behavior when we have it in our mind and hearts and are submitting ourselves to it. That’s what I’m praying for Christians everywhere. Thank you for your sincere work towards this goal, Gavin, and I pray you stay encouraged in Him! 🙏
I graduated from BJU and read George Dollar's History of Fundamentalism. Dr Bob would rant regularly about people he hated. I couldn't be a Fundamentalist, I have more than 5 friends! 😃 I so appreciate the CCCC.
This episode brings a lot of clarity to my thoughts! I grew up in a fundamentalist church, having this clearer understanding makes it easier to have healthy conversations with family members still there! I’ve also been watching the word wars happening between Christian leaders that I respect…this makes a lot more sense now! Thank you!
Great video, Gavin. May the good Lord continue to strengthen you. I simply wanted to point out that the high contrast of the text bubbles in the video did not help to see the texts well. It might be more helpful to have the text on a less "contrasty" background. Thank you once again for the thoughts. God bless!
You threaded the needle very competently. Thank you. I stopped using “evangelical” as a self-description when describing myself in general, and cling to its meaning in the 16th century-I believe in the centrality of the propagation of the evangel of Jesus Christ. I’ve started saying, “I’m a confessionally-Reformed Christian.” I have done this due to the current confusion and the tendency to use it as a political description. As for Twitter, I can’t stand the tribalism and have stopped going there. Just as “Fundamentalist” has become a derogatory term, it seems that “Evangelical” has also assumed a derogatory meaning my the public at large. As for politics I do not think it belongs in the pulpit anymore than a national flag belongs in a worship service. Yes, biblically-based doctrine will impact one’s politics to some degree but that will occur as a consequence of proper teaching of scriptural truth. We do need to study church history and it needs to be taught. I greatly appreciate what you are doing.
Evangelical really has become just a synonym for "culturally conservative" nowadays and it's said. I'm more Baptist so I don't identify the same way you do but I also don't really use the term either, unless I specify that I'm "theologically evangelical." It's become too loaded of a term, especially among my generation(I'm 28.)
Great stuff Gavin! Somehow we need to reclaim the ability to disagree with each other without demeaning each other. Theological triage is a great place to start.
From what I know of church history, this sort of thing has been happening from the beginning. There is a particular doctrine that most, maybe even all believers agree upon. But then the doctrine is examined in greater detail with different groups coming to different conclusions on the details resulting in some type of church split. The groups then examine the doctrine even more closely which results in further disagreement and additional divisions. This happens with a variety of doctrines and results in many splits and divisions over time.
Yes, but what grieves me is that the current division as defined by Megan Basham (sp?) is over politics, not doctrine. To raise politics to the level of essential doctrine is heretical.
Absolutely SUPERB video. Though I differ with you on pre-mil as a dispensationalist, your points you make here should be read in EVERY seminary class. VITAL that future theologians to understand. Marsden does a phenom job breaking these issues down as you state. My heart really went out to Dr Carnell who I’m sure, suffered so much due to these inter-denom battles that affected Fuller, the NAE, the fundamentalist split with BG and his own stress as President. Irenic points. Very thankful for you and your ministry.
The oppositional nature of so much of our Christian dialogue turns hostile and ends with calcification of existing positions and no greater love for the other side of our debates. This channel is the rare exception. I come away with greater understanding and greater love for believers whose positions differ from mine, and with greater sense of Christian community and the continuity of this community from the past to the present. I appreciate the grace as much as the scholarship.
I wish I could like this more than once. I have been called a liberal and even a Bible denier for asking questions of the text. For example: where did Cain get his wife? There are different answers, but each of these are 'below the line.' The problem is when someone holds up their favorite preacher's study Bible and declares everything in it to be infallible. Nope. Your interpretation is not infallible, neither is mine. I appreciate the work you do brother, even when I disagree.
Hey, Gavin! Appreciate your videos so much. Without them, I think I wouldn’t be a protestant by now 😅. I would like to ask the verse John 20:23 and I find it very difficult that I need to confess my sins to a priest to be forgiven. Thanks very much!!
I’m sorry this is a struggle for you. It is a challenging verse, but it says nothing about confessing to a priest. That’s a very major doctrine to build upon a rather obscure verse, which we see happen a lot in certain camps. There are some pretty good explanations of this first, but we see throughout scripture that we are to confess to God, although our times to confess to one another. Never is it suggested in scripture, to my knowledge, that we have to confess to a religious leader.
Gavin please let me commend you for being one of the few channels not trying to radicalize us. Your channel feels like a place of rest and safe harbor for me. Bless you brother.
He’s “not trying to radicalize us.” That is such a good way to put it. And you are so right! Thankful for Gavin!
I would wish for every professing Christian in my town to watch this with thoughtful humility. I pastor in Moscow, Idaho, a gravitational center for the mood you are describing.
may the Lord bless you in your ministry
Indeed! May the Lord pour out His gracious Spirit on you, and through you to the local refugees who arrive and need healing!
God bless you brother, and keep you in the narrow way. Keep your eyes on Jesus ❤
Moscow, Idaho. What do they grow there? Red potatoes? =D
@@thomasrutledge5941 Deep red
I believe in a young Earth, but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. It doesn't change the gospel if you believe in an old Earth. I believe that we should be firm on the essentials only. I like this video.
Gavin you’re my hero, man! Keep fighting the good fight. It’s worth it. We can’t give up on the church and let uncharitable “fundamentalists” destroy the body of Christ. Thank you for your work! Praying for you.
In scripture, I see more about division caused by departing from the faith than by reacting to doctrinal departure. Whereas the latter can motivate giving up on the church, the former directly leads into it.
Therefore, exclusively focusing on either is unhelpful.
Truth and love must be balanced. If I must choose between the two, I will take truth. Love is a truth, so, truth is self-correcting. Love without truth leads to males changing clothes in women’s locker rooms.
Atop this, if you want to see “unloving,” just look at the profit-centered message of the Word-of-Faith movement, which developed out of the Pentecostal claim that healing is in the atonement, which has a history of its own.
@ricksonora6656. I think you’re on the right track here. And as much as I love Gavin, I see him as (slightly) out in the wilderness. When Christian, in Pilgrim’s Progress, finds himself in the the smoky darkness of the Valley of the Shadow, there is a ditch on one side of the road and a quagmire on the other. Falling off to either side is to endanger one’s soul. Gavin seems far more terrified by Evangelicals “with Fundamentalist tendencies” than by Evangelicals in cahoots with an encroaching liberalism. He’s relying too much on Marsden, who is more of a post-conservative than a straightforward Evangelical. Ortlund got his doctorate at Fuller, I believe. Does he not realize that, though founded as an Evangelical institution, it gave up on inerrancy (and thus quit being Evangelical) long, long ago?
Gavin warns us of the specter of theological liberalism, but REFUSES to acknowledge the liberalizing tendencies of Big Eva, with which he associates. The way it looks to me, is that between the likes of Russell Moore and the likes of Megan Basham is a huge middle ground occupied by exactly no one. (Well, I try stake out a plot of sod there, but it’s kind of like Wiley the Coyote finding a place to stand between the cliff he leaves and the cliff he’s heading to.)
I can relate to Gavin when he warns us of a danger on the right. And I can relate to Megan when she warns us of a danger on the left. But they need to listen to one another!! Gavin is falling into the ditch, and Megan is falling into the quagmire. And the solution is not as simple as calling a ceasefire and asking (a la Rodney King), “Can’t we all just get along?”
This comment perfectly articulates what I believe…. Spot on
@@HannahClaphamHmmm, you may be too close. I think a clearer picture from a more distanced vantage point is that Ortlund is standing in the desirable center - of a dying intelligent evangelicalism (of the heritage of Carl Henry, Don Carson, Robert Saucy, Tom Schreiner, RC RT France, FF Bruce, CS Lewis, John Stott, Bruce Waltke, Dallas Willard, Tim Keller, Walter Kaiser - among many other luminaries who have nobly carried much of the best of evangelicalism of the past 70 years.
Meanwhile, there are the fundamentalist attacks that come from the right, and the progressive giveaways that come from the left.
Gavin has just about nailed the proper center, but the wings are growing and the center is being abandoned. In this case the center is not compromise, but the balanced target.
The challenge from the fundamentalist on the right is that they imagine themselves to be the protectors of the center of the target and see their calling as to engage in polemics. But of course, the biblical target is living graciously according to truth and love, following on the way of Jesus, submitted to the Word, under the power of the Spirit. And doing so with an awareness of history and with discernment of our present context. Against detractors of the day, Gavin is heroically nailing it.
You need to understand that fundamentalism is not one understanding. I’m very fundamentalist, but in the best sense of the word. I think many people stereotype fundamentalist and make them look like ignorants, although there are some that actually are ignorant and may go to an extreme belief. I think people that attack fundamentalism are more fundamentalist than what they think. Now I may believe in a younger earth, but it’s just my belief and how it is revealed to me through the church, and through scripture. But it’s not a fundamental belief. I will not attack a brother for believing in an older earth, because there is enough evidence to for both sides to be debatable. Now it’s true that some Christians are becoming more progressive or liberal, and that’s just wrong, but we can accuse someone liberal or progressive if a brother believes in a older earth, in a theist evolution theory, ..etc. Those are secondary believes that doesn’t affect the Gospel that we both share to the world.
I don’t agree with extreme fundamentalist that dogmatize certain beliefs, and sometimes they even become sectarian and some even embrace a KJV-onlyst system.
Most fundamentalist I know are not legalistic or dogmatic. I think it’s the ignorant and sectarians fundamentalist that are hurting the church and the real liberal and progressive class christians. Now even within the Church fathers they had differences, but were still in communion. I love all of my brothers and sisters. God bless you all.
"We're so scared of liberalism that we feel like we can cut corners" That really nails it. I've had conversations repeatedly with people where I say we still have to love our enemies and treat them with grace and compassion and I've been called a liberal for this because it's just so much easier to hit back.
Absolute nail on the head 🔨
Gavin, I think this was a very important video to make. As you say, this is not the end of the discussion, it is an important one to have, and this is a great way to get that dialogue going.
Fortunately, I have found in the local churches I have attended, in two different states (one with you) and one in Texas, I do not see the vitriolic style of attacking different points of view on second order issues at all. Different views exist, but generosity and humility mark the dialogue we have. And yet, in social media, and some recent books, the dialogue does not show the fruit of the Spirit. Confronting error is necessary, but it must be done with an earnest desire for truth and love for our brothers and sisters clearly evident. As you have done here, we need to call it out, shine a light on the nastiness.
I love your call at the end, for us to pray for revival. Let us be humble, repentant where we need to be and ask for a mighty work of God that transcends and confronts our petty tendencies.
Another great video, Gavin. A well-developed perspective and a very helpful historical context. Thank you.
"Confronting error is necessary, but it must be done with an earnest desire for truth and love for our brothers and sisters clearly evident."
Amen. Very well said, Colin! Thank you brother.
My advice would be to be thankful you're a part of a church that has conviction in a world that lacks it.
In Revelation, John said to the Church in Thyatira "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel". I am sure Jesus and Apostles exercised controls, but they did not hesitate to call out false teachings either. I think the modern American sensibility where "being cordial and nice" somehow makes statements more truthful is a false dichotomy.
No more calling for revivals. The Bible calls for moderation. The First Great Awakening was helpful. The Second Great Awakening created most prolific heretical groups of modern times (Mormons, JW, etc). The Third Great Awakening (arguable) created Pentecostalism and other Spiritual gifts abusing denominations. Modern Americans lunacies including Christianity is spreading to the world impacting negatively. NO MORE calling for revivals...the world can't take anymore of American "Christianity".
@@thomasc9036 I would agree with you that cordiality is not by itself a test of truth. I don't know enough to comment on whether there is a current tendency in America to correlate the two. Sadly, within the church, I see both truth and falsehood and likewise both cordiality and vitriol. Not sure if your comment was in relation to mine. My comment was on the need for truth and love. An entirely different thing. Love of course being something that we are commanded to show each other and the way that the world knows we are Christians.
That was an interesting position you stated on revival - one I had not heard before. I see the call for renewal and revival clearly in Scripture (Isaiah 57:15, Ps 85 for example) and so am compelled to pray for revival.
Also, not sure what you think of when you pejoratively describe 'American' Christianity. I think, we only want the Biblical Christianity of Jesus, whether you are American, Zambian (like me) or anything else.
@@colinmichaelis3379 Truth and love is what the American Christianity overemphasize nowadays. However, American Christians are lobsided where they care ore about sinners and criminals while the sheep and victims are afterthoughts. It is mostly concerned with outer appearances of "truth and love". We lack discipline and control which are part of truth and love as well.
Isaiah 57 and Ps 85 are not calling out the kind of revivals most Americans are thinking of. It's a call for Israel to repent before the judgment which didn't happen and God judge them through the Assyrian and Babylonian Empire. It's a severe ad terrifying warning against idolatry of Israel.
If you study the First Great Awakening, you will learn that while it had many wonderful moments, American Christians shifted from historical Christianity to personal Christianity. It was the beginning of Protestants' deemphases of the Christian History. This shift had massive impact on later generations and still is pervasive in America where individualism is the most important to the majority of American Christians.
I am of Korean descent. When Christian missions came to Korea during the late 19th and early 20th century, they were different than later missionaries that came after the 50s. Many pastors were very concerned with different American Christianity brought by later missionaries and some of them prayed that Americans stop sending missionaries.
Great video Gavin thank you for taking the time to do this. God bless you and your family and your ministry. You are helping a lot of us think through things and become better followers of Christ
Great video, Gavin! It's a tough time to live as a Christian. The whole world is becoming more polarized, and that is sadly permeating the church as well. Because of you, I have become willing to die on far fewer hills than before. Thanks for your thought-provoking content!
This might be the best treatment of this issue I've ever seen. Your gentleness and love of truth comes through beautifully. Thank you for all your efforts here, Dr. Ortlund.
Hello Gavin. Thank you for articulating what I have been feeling and struggling through these last years but I have never been able to put into words. I fell in fundamentalist tendencies that did not make me love my brothers in Christ. Now in recent years I have been loving more my brothers and being in community.
Thank you, Gavin. My pastor has started to espouse some fundamentalist viewpoints from the pulpit that were concerning. I spoke with him privately and he confirmed my fears that he’s aligning himself with some outspoken fundamentalists/Christian nationalists. I appreciate your contribution in speaking to this wave of fundamentalism, and helping me realize I’m not crazy or off-base with my concerns. Praying for you, brother!
Pastor Gavin, despite difference i suspect we may have on non-biblical issues, such as politics, or non-essential biblical doctrines. I cannot stress how much I agree with you on these cultural issues.
I know you are reluctant to address them at times, but your diagnosis is so sharp and your ability to think through them rationally and biblically make you one of the most important voices in navigating this foggy sea.
As a young man, raised Pentecostal, and believing we were the only ones to have everything right. listening to you has educated me and allowed me to develop a balanced perspective of the kingdom of God, theology and the Bible.
You are not a lone voice crying in the wilderness, people are listening and you are influencing hearts and minds. All Soli Deo Gloria.
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, Liberty; In all things, Charity.
Such a sobering reminder. If we jettison compassion and kindness as we stand for the Truth of the Gospel, we can utterly destroy our witness of that very grace we have all benefitted from. For me personally, the most painful landscape of all this has been made real in this way: I am preparing to meet with people I love and have worshipped with for years, family or friends even, and find myself rehearsing conversations ahead of time so I don’t use the wrong language, imply any kind of disagreement, or show empathy for “them.” It is exhausting and crushing. And it makes me want to hide.
Keep it up Brother. I love your irenic tone. And your facial expressions! The Shepherds for Sale controversy is so painful for you. I too am suffering an untrue accusation/misunderstanding and we carry on, following our Lord. As an old man, I say, Enjoy them while you’re young: your kids, your joints and your studies. God is good.
I have never seen you pour out your heart so much, and it has been refreshing. It is so necessary for pastors who deal with people's hearts and struggles at times to come out with an open heart as well, and I commend you for it. Thanks for your work, Gavin!
I am so so sorry that you are going through this. You have always been level-headed, looking at issues and fighting for and standing up for what really matters in doctrine. Please know you have support from people like me who cherish your work and your channel.
Solid. I don’t know you and cannot vouch for you but based on your expressed views and admonitions here you merit additional attention and your message here deserves amplification and support.
Thank you so much for this, Gavin. I have been dismayed by several podcasts that I started watching but gave up because of the tendency to pull down other ministries. It was the spirit in which it was done that distressed me. So much that bordered on hatred and vitriol. No sense of broken heartedness or praying for those in error and those deemed in error. I wonder how many started out with good purpose - to shine light on darkness and expose wrong behaviour or teaching - but then as time went on and they had an audience to reach and needed new material and they started nit-picking at other ministries. I don’t know but the pride and self righteousness of some of these people just radiate from them. I never watch them now. Your podcast makes me remember that I need to pray for them. I have always been drawn by your Godly, humble spirit, Gavin, and am very grateful for your balanced teaching. May God bless and watch over you, and protect you and your family. Unfortunately the most ravening wolves can often come from within. It must grieve the heart of our Lord.
Well stated! The self appointed fundie police pursuing their so-called ministry of polemics (getting views by trashing others) is as damaging to the body as it is addicting to the hooked subscribers. There seems to be no faster way to grow a “Christian” YT channel today than by tearing down public ministries.
I’ve noticed the same. Had to stop listening to several that have been excellent in the past.
Thank you Gavin. I grew up in the “Sword of the Lord” fundamentalism and I found this video incredibly helpful.
You worded the things that have been on my heart lately so well.. I couldn't agree more. Blessings brother Gavin!
As always you are an encouragement to the many, many Christians who are seeing and experiencing everything that you are describing.
Wow! This is so timely! Every Christian needs to hear to understand what’s going on in the evangelical world. I have felt this dynamic for quite awhile and you so helpfully explained well exactly what’s going on! Thank you, Gavin. Now I have a resource to explain it. Keep up the good work!
This was a very good start into the parallels between our current struggles and the Liberal/Fundamentalist Wars that began just over a century ago. Appreciate your work, looking forward to more of this.
-A YEC Guy
Gavin I grew up in a church that was a Premillennial and young earth creation as you described. I am now in my 60’s and am still Premill and can absolutely see your point and agree with your analysis! I am also a Patron of your channel. My wife and I have learned much through your work. We will be increasing our support! Continue the excellent work, the Body of Christ needs it!
Love and appreciate you, Gavin! I pray God allows those attacking to be exposed to, and blessed by, your ministry.
As my theology grows more and more Catholic, I find myself liking Gavin more and more for some reason. It’s nice to get a plain and clear explanation on things sometimes. I love the channel.
I think that's what's pretty amazing about him, and why I de-converted from Catholicm. You can't get mad at someone who is charitable and has surprisingly little bias compared to other figures online
@@chonk6683 I recommend the site Catholic Answers
I truly appreciate your speaking to this. Church renewal and unity is a deep life passion of mine as well. I am heartbroken at the consistent tearing and devouring I am seeing within the church as the broken and lost world watches. Please keep talking.
The list of historical figures who are not YEC was quite helpful for showing how some of these issues have been mis-triaged.
Agreed. I think a lot of YEC's(not all because there are those who are intellectual honest. My pastor for instance resolves the "Light before Luminaries" problem by pointing out that God is the light) don't want to admit that a hyperliteral reading of Genesis also has textual challenges that go away with an old-Earth view. Like for me, I have 4 question for those with that view:
1. Why would the animals need to be "subdued"(Gen 1:28) if they were peaceful before the Fall?
2. How could plants be food(1:29-30) without death?
3. How could Adam and Eve have a frame of reference for death(2:17; 3:1-4) if it didn't exist in some form?
4. Without death, what purpose did the eternal-life giving Tree of Life have and why did it need to guarded after the Fall?(3:22-24)
“This is the fundamentalist tendency: we are so scared of liberalism we can cut corners.” This is so true. Wow.
This was really good thank you. When you said, “Am I the only one seeing these things?!” I have been saying the same thing for awhile now so it’s comforting to know others are seeing it too!
One thing that my dad reminded me of when I first began to realize the dangers of fundamentalism (he was so unbelievably kind and patient with me when I was very persuaded by fundamentalism) was to not become "fundamentalist" and uncharitable towards fundamentalists. Had to delete Twitter just to help me grow in love and charity so I no longer saw the worst in people first but focused on seeing them in love. In learning to see people in love, though, I also had to learn it doesn't mean seeing the best only, it means seeing them for who they really are, just like God does with us, and loving them in all their beautiful messiness. Hardest thing in the world to do. But it's what God did with me, so how can I not do it with others?
In the wake of your (mis)treatment by Megan Basham, I am sure the difficulties Christian have when they disagree have been on your mind. I commend you for studying this problem, and the gap between fundamentalism and evangelicalism is an excellent place to start. In my studies of the complex relationships that exist between Christianity and science, the bitter debates between young- and old-earth creationists (e.g., AiG vs. RTB and Biologos) have been especially troubling. Your thoughts on "theological triage" and church history are on-target and helpful. May the Holy Spirit give you wisdom as you continue to wrestle with these issues, and may your voice help reunify the Church around the gospel of Jesus Christ!
I think you and I have different opinions on church fathers. Puritans are not church fathers. They are a far away from them. Basil the great, Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Origen, Clement of Rome… some of these people were disciples of disciples. Some date to 35 BC. Closer to Jesus. These are my feelings and opinions. And if we want revival, it brings people together who have little in common. So people need to deal with their egos, and have Christs humility on them. I really don’t think people understand the cost of revival. There needs to be unity before, and obviously there isn’t.
@@sarahkokura6349 Looks like your reply is misplaced?
Just for clarity, AIG is Biblical creationist. Biologos is the extreme of theistic evolution, wherein God only kick-started evolution, then let it run its course. The essential issues in these debates are not science versus faith but science versus science and determining what the Scripture actually teaches. Also, each position impacts how we see God. One holds God as a genius creator, while the other makes God look like a mass murderer. You can appreciate why sometimes the debate gets heated.
Thank you Gavin for all the work and pain you've had to endure to be able to produce a video like this. As a father of several children, there is nothing more grievous to me than to see my family members fighting and hurting each other. I'd be willing to die for them, but have never been crucified for them. I cannot imagine how much we grieve the Holy Spirit when we spend our time fighting amongst ourselves over 2nd order issues. Upon our death, its doubtful we will be handed a comprehensive theology exam.
God has changed the contents of my heart after watching this video. Thank you, Pastor Gavin. All glory to God.
This is what the church needs. Thank you
I recommend the site Catholic Answers
Thank you for voicing this! I've thought the same thing the last few years.
Excellent overview, Gavin. As a Young-Earth Lutheran in Sweden you have my full support. It seems there is a need for a new way of navigating in the current landscape, just as Neo-Evangelicalism was a new way in the 1950's.
Thank you Gavin for your hard work and excellent videos. You are very much appreciated.
You are spot on Gavin! Observing these reactionary and divisive tendencies all over the place. Really helpful to put it in context of what we’ve seen happen before!
i was just dealing with this at church today. i hope some will learn to be more gracious in their dealings with those of differing opinions.
gavin you have been such a wonderful blessing to me. Thank you for your measured and nuanced approach!
Thank you for your patient and heartfelt work... take heart, the Truth will prevail, and He will demand an account for every lie 🙏
I'm glad someone's talking about this; keep it up. When non Protestants criticize Protestantism (or especially low church Protestantism) for being "chaotic", this sort of infighting is more or less what they're talking about. I once attended a Western Rite Orthodox service where Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and I think even some Anglicans worshipped together and they all loved it because those variants of Christianity actually get along pretty well these days. When different variants of Christianity get along it allows Christians to explore the wider world of Christianity, which is very enriching. We live in a unique place in history where so many denomination coexist in the same geographical area, so the opportunity is ripe. Gavin's solutions of engaging in good faith dialogue with those of differing views and studying church history are spot on.
One note of blessings personally - as I work through my Master's in Theology - your channel/content has been a helpful resource (just finished Historical Theology - my final was on Chalcedonian Christology). To your point - I think you strike a pretty good balance with this video. I was meditating on some of your points...and as a pastor/music minister...aside from any "government mandates" or "liberal theologies" I think the thing that you spoke of that I resonated with most was - how the people of God are treating each other. A number of people in a church I served seemingly, overnight, categorized others according to various ideologies and chose sides (pro TGC, Tim Keller, John Piper...etc.). I found it to be a losing battle as I sought for unity in the person of Christ - I am not specifically pro or anti - other than ...does it promote the Person and Work of Christ in the local assembly - for the transformation of the heart and the healing of humanity all for the glory of God....thoughts?
Since you asked for a comment: excellent video brother. Very helpful, keep it up!
One thing the internet definitely could use is more RUclipsrs/etc. to make videos calling Christians online to two things:(1) local church participation and (2) not arguing and being ungracious and outright unpleasant in the comments section
Gavin, I so appreciate your heart in this conversation. Our Savior prayed, “Father make them one as You and I are One.” Divisiveness, slander, and gossip are tools of the enemy that are crafted and sharpened for use against the Church. To many of us are gladly wielding the enemy’s tools against our brethren when Christ should draw us together so supernaturally that the world believes He was sent by the Father and that they are loved.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this Gavin - you’ve voiced just what I’m feeling. I’ve been worried about this and the division that it causes, particularly the distraction away from the gospel. I know that I’ve felt puffed up in fear by what people have said about what’s going on in the world and in the church - without a redirection to the Lord it’s only left me despairing and fearful of doing anything at all. I would love for people to discuss how we ought to pray for the world and for each other, because there’s hope in our redeemer. I pray that we would seek to truly listen to one another and to remember the grace that was poured out to us. I pray that in all the confusion around we wouldn’t be lost in it but unified, and in the unity of the body that the world will see that the Lord is alive. It grieves me that the church is fractured in places at the moment, and that differences of opinion can lead people to fear that people are untrustworthy or have left the faith, but I’m thankful that the Lord’s ever interceding and never finished with us, he’s so patient. I’m thankful for conversations like this that are honest and spread hope - in a sea of voices that often spread anxiety, discussions like yours encourage and give permission to listen and to discern, and to seek the Lord on every issue which is most important. Thank you for your ministry.
Awesome message Gavin. Will be praying for you and your family
I recently finished a biography on Martyn Lloyd-Jones and got me so curious about that season with John Stott! So hard to see two people I respect so opposed. Maybe a future video???
Gavin, you are a blessing! How hard it must be to keep such humility, clarity, and calm in the face of so much opposition.
"I think we need to pray for revival. That's what I want to give my whole life to. I basically feel like I'm here to try to walk with Jesus, take care of my family, try to be a catalyst for the third great awakening. That's it. It's really as simple as that."
Thanks Gavin.
Thank you so much. Expressing the fruit of the Spirit while seeking, proclaiming, and defending truth is vitally important. God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I hope you can find Anabaptist and Pentecostal and Wesleyan proponents of theological triage, an irenic spirit, and assurance in the Gospel to team up with you to take this desperately needed approach into their worlds too!
William Jennings Bryan being an older earth creationist blew my mind. Truth is stranger than fiction wow.
Such a great video Gavin. This is so true of American culture. Let’s keep our eyes on Christ and model him on the stormy weather of our society.
Love ya brother 🤜🤛
Keep up the good work.
And yes - amen to revival.
May God continue to bless this ministry
Spot on!!! Modern day Fundamentalism is causing lots of spiritual abuse in counseling circles as well. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this video. I can’t fully explain why it feels very helpful but I have been searching for truth in different denominations and I think this convicted me to be sure of what I’m actually looking for
Keep up the good work! Your gifts of teaching are a great gift from the Almighty.
I do have similar concerns, and I have learned from this video, thanks!
I find your videos SO helpful - and your commitment to truth. Thanks for doing this one. SUCH important context!
❤ love you Gavin, thank you for your contribution to the conversation
Thank you so much for this thought provoking video. I needed to hear this - I am far too easily pulled towards Fundementalism without discerning what is and isn't worth disagreeing over. We appreciate the work you do Gavin!
Excellent video! I want to read Marsden's book now. Thank you for your contribution here! Praying for you as you deal with the fallout of misinfornation/slander.
Good book. Marsden's earlier book "Fundamentalism and American Culture" is even better because it explains the cultural assumptions underlying both Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism. His book on Fuller uses Fuller as case study his earlier book.
Gavin……thankyou man for this video. I appreciate your measured and reasoned teaching. I live in Greenville SC so you can ‘reasonably’ conclude where I went to school for my undergraduate degree. So grateful for your sharing your study of the early church history into the medieval period ….so glad to have found you and Mike Winger on RUclips. Continue on proclaiming truth. ❤
Well said. I definitely agree on the issue of many not knowing church history. For most of my walk, I was taught that anyone who has a “liberal” interpretation of scripture is that way solely because of the modern world and that “no Christians agreed with them until recently.” I still have a lot of work to do but that view is just ignorant of church history.
thank you sir. we all need that reminder at one point i got in the bandwagon but began to feel convicted in my spirit. we all are diff in our learning curve and we should be patient and trust the Lord as HE molds us and shape us. its seems everyone want to loosely call everyone a heretic. i appreciate your teaching and patience!
Thank you so much Gavin, so appreciate your willingness to learn even from those who oppose you and to humbly example how to love and lead through these treacherous times.
Brother Gavin you are a gift to the Church. Keep up the good work!
Nailed it. This issue has been concerning me for some time.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for speaking on this issue. You are not the only one seeing these issues in the church today.
These words need to be spoken, especially in today's climate. We need to be fastened firmly to the head, which is Christ. We are defined by our identity with Christ - not by who we are opposed against.
Excellent! Thank you, Gavin.
Good job putting this historical perspective out there !
Wow Gavin. I didn’t realize how many personal ramifications there are for you to try to promote truth with love. Please know that there are many people out there that are supporting you and are sincerely seeking peace in the church. Praying that you would have strength to continue despite these obstacles!
Well done! I am thankful for your contributions to the conversation.
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" and pushed him over.
Wheres that one from?
@@prestonyannotti7661 It's attributed to Emo Philips.
This is my favorite joke of all time... and I'm a member of a fundamentalist Baptist church. 😅
I laughed out loud when I got to the end of this. This is hilarious.
True story: I was saved and baptized in independent fundamentalist baptist churches. I was educated at an IFB school, and worked my first pastoral jobs in those churches. At one point, the church I was a youth pastor at had to let me go due to budget issues. I was then hired by a *Southern Baptist* Church, and my IFB boss/pastor said, “Why would you go work for the Southern Baptists?! They are the enemy!”
I left fundamentalism and never returned.
Confessing Christians NEED more of the WORD in their hearts. The WORD corrects this kind of behavior when we have it in our mind and hearts and are submitting ourselves to it. That’s what I’m praying for Christians everywhere. Thank you for your sincere work towards this goal, Gavin, and I pray you stay encouraged in Him! 🙏
Thank you for all your work on your channel. This is great content
I graduated from BJU and read George Dollar's History of Fundamentalism. Dr Bob would rant regularly about people he hated. I couldn't be a Fundamentalist, I have more than 5 friends! 😃 I so appreciate the CCCC.
Seems to be the model for YT polemicists today.
Not a big fan of BJU.
I'm in an ACE School of Tomorrow school. (Senior Year)
They like BJU, so I don't. 🥶
You are a blessing Gavin.
Ryan Reeves has a great series of lectures on church history, which inclueds a history of "fundamentalism"
I LOVE his series on church history. I highly recommend it, and I think viewers of this channel would appreciate it.
@@ParksLoveryeah! He’s really good!
I would weigh in and say that Nathan Busenitz has the best Church History classes available 🙋🏼♂️♥️🦊
That guy is awesome
His stuff is great
This episode brings a lot of clarity to my thoughts! I grew up in a fundamentalist church, having this clearer understanding makes it easier to have healthy conversations with family members still there! I’ve also been watching the word wars happening between Christian leaders that I respect…this makes a lot more sense now! Thank you!
Great video, Gavin. May the good Lord continue to strengthen you.
I simply wanted to point out that the high contrast of the text bubbles in the video did not help to see the texts well. It might be more helpful to have the text on a less "contrasty" background.
Thank you once again for the thoughts. God bless!
You threaded the needle very competently. Thank you. I stopped using “evangelical” as a self-description when describing myself in general, and cling to its meaning in the 16th century-I believe in the centrality of the propagation of the evangel of Jesus Christ. I’ve started saying, “I’m a confessionally-Reformed Christian.” I have done this due to the current confusion and the tendency to use it as a political description. As for Twitter, I can’t stand the tribalism and have stopped going there. Just as “Fundamentalist” has become a derogatory term, it seems that “Evangelical” has also assumed a derogatory meaning my the public at large. As for politics I do not think it belongs in the pulpit anymore than a national flag belongs in a worship service. Yes, biblically-based doctrine will impact one’s politics to some degree but that will occur as a consequence of proper teaching of scriptural truth. We do need to study church history and it needs to be taught. I greatly appreciate what you are doing.
Evangelical really has become just a synonym for "culturally conservative" nowadays and it's said. I'm more Baptist so I don't identify the same way you do but I also don't really use the term either, unless I specify that I'm "theologically evangelical." It's become too loaded of a term, especially among my generation(I'm 28.)
Great stuff Gavin! Somehow we need to reclaim the ability to disagree with each other without demeaning each other. Theological triage is a great place to start.
This is now officially my favorite channel
From what I know of church history, this sort of thing has been happening from the beginning. There is a particular doctrine that most, maybe even all believers agree upon. But then the doctrine is examined in greater detail with different groups coming to different conclusions on the details resulting in some type of church split. The groups then examine the doctrine even more closely which results in further disagreement and additional divisions.
This happens with a variety of doctrines and results in many splits and divisions over time.
Yes, but what grieves me is that the current division as defined by Megan Basham (sp?) is over politics, not doctrine. To raise politics to the level of essential doctrine is heretical.
Thank you for this video! Two thumbs up
Thanks, Gavin! This was excellent.
a real eye opener Gavin, thanks for what you do
Grateful for you. We need your gift in the church. The rage, polarization, and cancel culture is antithetical to Christian love.
Like like and like. Thank you speaking to this
Absolutely SUPERB video. Though I differ with you on pre-mil as a dispensationalist, your points you make here should be read in EVERY seminary class. VITAL that future theologians to understand. Marsden does a phenom job breaking these issues down as you state. My heart really went out to Dr Carnell who I’m sure, suffered so much due to these inter-denom battles that affected Fuller, the NAE, the fundamentalist split with BG and his own stress as President. Irenic points. Very thankful for you and your ministry.
The oppositional nature of so much of our Christian dialogue turns hostile and ends with calcification of existing positions and no greater love for the other side of our debates. This channel is the rare exception. I come away with greater understanding and greater love for believers whose positions differ from mine, and with greater sense of Christian community and the continuity of this community from the past to the present. I appreciate the grace as much as the scholarship.
This was helpful. Thank you.
This is EXACTLY what I’ve been thinking about on my own recently and didn’t know where to start with research. Thank you for doing this
39:00 review of the dangers of approach within Fundamentalism. Spot on!
Thanks for what you do, Gavin. This is so helpful.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing your heart, and please stay encouraged!
I wish I could like this more than once. I have been called a liberal and even a Bible denier for asking questions of the text. For example: where did Cain get his wife? There are different answers, but each of these are 'below the line.' The problem is when someone holds up their favorite preacher's study Bible and declares everything in it to be infallible. Nope. Your interpretation is not infallible, neither is mine. I appreciate the work you do brother, even when I disagree.
Hey, Gavin! Appreciate your videos so much. Without them, I think I wouldn’t be a protestant by now 😅. I would like to ask the verse John 20:23 and I find it very difficult that I need to confess my sins to a priest to be forgiven. Thanks very much!!
I’m sorry this is a struggle for you. It is a challenging verse, but it says nothing about confessing to a priest. That’s a very major doctrine to build upon a rather obscure verse, which we see happen a lot in certain camps. There are some pretty good explanations of this first, but we see throughout scripture that we are to confess to God, although our times to confess to one another. Never is it suggested in scripture, to my knowledge, that we have to confess to a religious leader.
Brilliantly communicated
Thank you for your comments on premillennialism.Blessings from UK.