Rick Warren on Female Pastors: About That SBC Debate
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- In this video I do theological triage on complementarianism and egalitarianism, responding to recent events in the Southern Baptist Convention regarding Saddleback Church, Rick Warren, and the question of female pastors.
Thomas Kidd's article on Baptist confessions of faith: www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...
Sam Storms' article on female pastors: www.samstorms.org/enjoying-go...
My book on theological triage: www.amazon.com/Finding-Right-...
Truth Unites exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
SUPPORT:
Become a patron: / truthunites
One time donation: www.paypal.com/paypalme/truth...
FOLLOW:
Twitter: / gavinortlund
Facebook: / truthunitespage
Website: gavinortlund.com/
MY ACADEMIC WORK:
gavinortlund.com/mypublications/
PODCAST:
anchor.fm/truth-unites
DISCORD SERVER ON PROTESTANTISM
Striving Side By Side: / discord
CHECK OUT SOME BOOKS:
www.amazon.com/Makes-Sense-Wo...
www.amazon.com/Theological-Re...
www.amazon.com/Retrieving-Aug...
00:00 Introduction
02:40 1) Response to Rick Warren
08:53 2) Complementarianism as a Second-Rank Issue
22:10 3) Not All Egalitarians Are Liberals
32:32 4) Not all Complementarians Are Abusive
39:37 Final Appeal
We must be careful to not adopt the spirit of the age and act like the world- angry, contentious, arrogant and uncharitable. Your approach is exactly what we need more of. Thank you!
But are we adopting the spirit of the more modern age or the spirit of the more historic age? It’s a really complicated issue that we need to use a pastoral heart when discussing
Saying "No" to half the world's population simply because of their sex is made no more charitable when done with a smile on your face.
@@Bruised-Reed That's where Gavin's argument goes off the rails. *All* the evidence from the last 120 years proves that the modern approach toward recognizing women as the equal of men in all aspects of governance was the right thing to do.
My pastor and I disagree on this subject. He sites that there is only one scripture in Tim. But what I argue that he is allowing woman to preach is in breach creation and replaced is with culture. Thus bringing our church into disrepute
except that that is NOT the way Jesus, Paul, and Peter addressed false teachers. See Matthew 23, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2. When people are being deliberately dense, false and dishonest as the liberals are, a much sterner tone is required.
If you’re taking suggestions for theological triage, I think a video discussing the three main views of hell (the traditional view, annihilationism, and universalism) along those lines would be super helpful.
Great suggestion
@@TruthUnitesI second that proposal!
Yes please do this!
If you should do this, I hope you will consider the doctrine of Conditional Immortality. I believe this view to be the most biblical of all the perspectives out there. For a brief introduction, please see Edward Fudge's lecture given by the Lenier Theological Library.
ruclips.net/video/oHUPpmbTOV4/видео.html
Can you please address this?!!!
Gavin, your work on this does my heart good. Thank you for your humble, scholarly approach! You are a gift to our time! May the Lord continue to bless you!
Very well said Gavin, this is an issue that comes up from time to time. I appreciate the time you took to work through this.
Thanks for this. It’s helpful to witness you apply your theological triage concepts to current situations. May God bless you for your irenic approach in the midst of all the self absorbed caterwauling on social media today.
Thank you, Gavin. I am grateful for your voice in this. Reasoned, pleading for grace for one another, and I share your burden for the course our culture is headed and the church mimicking this. I am also SBC currently and struggled to see this as a 2nd Rank (leaned more 3rd rank) but you are making me think more about my position as a 3rd rank. Thanks, brother.
I am going back and watching old videos and found this gem! I am currently studying this subject for myself and I found all your references and thoughts very helpful, as usual!
I absolutely love your heart on this! 💛💯
I share your burden of concern about how angry and frustrated we've become, about how divided and divisive the church is becoming, and how poorly we treat each other. ⚠️
In fact, it's one of the main motivators for me starting my own channel and hopefully joining the few content creators out there trying to bring peace and reconciliation in the Bride of Christ. 👑
Keep up the great work, Gavin. Don't grow weary of doing good. Your voice is needed. Blessings! 😎👍
My experience has been that when we prioritise unity, it doesn't work. It soon falters on our differences. However, when we prioritise the Kingdom of God and Jesus Himself, unity follows by itself, without even addressing the 2nd and 3rd tier issues. We learn to appreciate our differences, but to focus on the One whom we follow and on the job He gave us on earth - He is our unity when his will (for people to meet Jesus) becomes our greatest desire.
Thank you, Gavin. I wish others where as calm and irenic as you are about this (I wish that for myself). My church went through this controversy just a few years ago, and it was a complete disaster, and we are still feeling the effects of it. I do not wish this controversy on any local church.
You nailed it. Well done. Prayerful, articulate, knowledgeable, intentional. Thankyouthankyou. (MTS in Church History from Gordon-Conwell here--I can hear all your research. Keep it comin'. Keep being gutsy and winsome.)
Gavin, I am so thankful for your synthesis of not only great reason but also admonition for greater kindness and intellectual honesty in the debate. I am sharing this link with many people. Well done.
I absolutely love your treatment of this conversation. While we may not fully agree, I greatly appreciate you’re clarity and conviction. Please keep doing great work and research.
What an approach! Humble, loving, level-headed, and gentle. Way to set the tone in how we should approach this topic in our brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you.😄
Thank you Gavin for this well reasoned and thoughtful video. We need your wisdom and your heart on topics like these. I especially appreciate how you described not all egalitarians being on the road to liberalism just as not all complementarians are abusive and power hungry. Keep up the good work! God bless you!
Thank you Gavin for another interesting and informative post!
Gavin, I am so grateful for you being willing to address this topic. Truly grateful. I grew up at Saddleback and then spent most of my 20s with deep ecclesial anxiety. Your videos are a significant contribution to my healing and understanding of how to move forward. Thank you so very much ❤
So glad to hear my videos have been helpful to you! Thanks for letting me know.
There is a biological weapon confirmed to be affecting primarily men. Maybe get your mind off your vagina because you are going to hell. Start laughing and feel your hell coming.
I am in process of leaving a church because it teaches egalitarianism and highlights that ppl only have gift of HSIf they speak in tongues. Also music is mostly Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation and seems vacuous to me. Attended a Baptist church last Sunday with contemporary music biblically based and hymns. I could actually hear the woman next to me sing!
Speak the truth in love ❤️ This video is so helpful for understanding how we're supposed to do triage better.
Scripture is clear on this in my opinion. I’m a woman and not offended by that, I believe and accept what scripture teaches. Rick Warren should just accept the SBC decision since that’s their belief. He’s the one who changed his belief about this, so it’s right for his church to not be part of SBC. His church seems a lot like a non-denominational church anyway. This is dangerous, as he is a very popular pastor, if he will start teaching wrong things, his congregation and others who follow him might believe him.
Right, I agree
Thank you.
I am a Catholic and very much agree that St. Paul should be taken at his word and the infallible Word of God does not mince words on this point.
To say, "Scripture is clear" regarding this issue is not accurate at all. This is precisely why it is still a debate within the Church. It may be your understanding, but it is not for others.
@@titosantiago3694now that is not true at all! The reason why it's temporarily controversial is because there is a large body of people who claim to be in Christ but value the world over the Word. Of all the things to question, the role of women and men is not one the bible is unclear about, not in the least.
Thankful for this video Gavin, very helpful. God bless you and your contribution to the church.
This was excellent - profoundly compassionate and gracious in tone, a thorough, comprehensive response, and lucid (in the most complimentary sense of the word). Will be sharing this!
Well said. Thank you
The grace & truth by which you approached this topic really encouraged me.
I share similar views to you and your dialogue sharpened my convictions
A video on the biblical basis for complimentarianism would be fantastic.
Mike Winger has done a big series on this going through all the key texts, real good!
I'd like Mike Winger to do one. Alas.
ruclips.net/video/UODX1Py-OD4/видео.html
This is a conversation between a Catholic and protestant on the topic
@@FalconOfStorms Mike Winger did a big series on it. "Women in ministry"
Your videos are fantastic, and you’ve provided a great service, thank you. God bless.
Thank you! Appreciate your grace-filled approach to this conversation.
Thanks so much for your content and for providing clarity on such tricky subjects. I would love to see you do 'theological triage' on the peccability or impeccability of Christ! Praying for your ministry and your reach here on the Tube and in your local body!
This is the 3rd time this week I've seen someone mention this or seen a post or video about it. Is there a reason this subject is coming up? Has there been some controversy or discussion about it I've missed?
It would be an interesting video idea certainly.
This was so good loved it, thank you so much for addressing this topic.
“As the body of Christ we have to model a better way! We’ve got to assume the best in each other. We’ve got to treat people like human beings, not as caricatures; and that means listening carefully and not assuming the worst.”
-Gavin Ortlund
““…You shall not add to it or take from it.”
Deuteronomy 12:32 ESV
“Throughout the Old Testament law there is this principle of “neither add nor subtract.” Adding on to the rules of scriptures is wrong just like subtracting from them is wrong. So we need to be sensitive to both.”
-Gavin Ortlund
Is it fair to say that Warren's emotional appeal made him a caricature?
Love the heart posture in this video Gavin, becoming one of my favorite RUclips channels. Level headed and done in the right attitude and I would say very fair to both sides.
🙏 Pastor Gavin, theological Triage 👍 and adressing contemporary issues biblically, factually and with a spirit of love and compassion 🙏🙏🙏
28:52 I love that you built a quick biblical basis for not adding laws to Scripture. I'm going to check if you have a video specifically on that topic. I also love how rich this video is! I appreciate that you have clear reasons for what you believe!
Gavin thanks for this helpful video that came at a good time for me! I’m reading Tell Her Story by Nijay Gupta. I like to hear a variety of perspectives on this issue! I love the kindness with which you approach doctrinal differences!
Such a good book! That and "Vindicating the Vixens" have helped me see women in the Bible in a completely different light.
Great outlook and very good!! I’m an SBC pastor for 38 years and you are spot on
I appreciate your gracious discussion of these difficult issues
Well said Gavin! Thank you for promoting reason in the midst of such heated discussions!
How do you not have a checkmark yet??
This video handles the topic perfectly. I see too many videos and people being overly-critical of one view without acknowledging the faults of the other view, or acknowledging what the other view sometimes gets right. This video did a great job of that while perfectly explaining how to go about disagreements on the subject. Thank you for your ministry Gavin
thanks a lot jared!
Your Channel was recommended by Becket Cook. So glad it was!
Immediately subscribe & enjoying your deep dive explorations. Well done!
Thanks and welcome!
Thank you so much. You are the most charitable and balanced complementarian pastor / theologian I've ever heard so far. May the Lord continue to bless and expand your ministry for His glory.🙏❤
Thank you so much for this, Gavin. This entire conversation can create a knot in my stomach, and your video helps loosen the tension a bit by emphasizing the importance of the conversation without unhelpful amplifying it. I often feel like my two options are either being a liberal or being a sexist (from how each side can present the other), and your insight helps give me confidence/freedom to research, pray, and hold a position with humility!
A thoughtful response Gavin. Very nicely done.
Just a request for a video idea one day, Christian mysticism particularly Protestant mysticism and mystics. I know you're very busy so it's just a suggestion/request. Thanks for all your hard work.
Thank you for your gentle way of explaining bible truths. It is so important that you want always to continue loving our fellow Christians despite any differences in understanding.
Wow! I love you, Gavin! You're an example to me. Thank you for this video, brother.
So grateful for the way you addressed this topic. Thank you, brother!
Beautifully handled and said Gavin!
This was a great video and a fantastic treatment of the subject!! Thanks Brother
Thank you for this video… so good & balanced 🙏🏼🙌🏽
It took me a couple of days to work up the courage to watch this video because I've read so many other articles that are very dismissive of women and the way the Spirit has gifted us, and I was scared yours would be the same despite all of the humility you have exhibited in other discussions (sorry!). I read your book Finding the Right Hills to Die On because I spent the better part of 18 months studying the issue of women in ministry and ended up changing my mind (moving from a complementarian to an egalitarian position - for lack of better terms) and I didn't know what to do. I appreciated the wisdom that your book provided and find that all of the practical considerations you gave in this video are exactly the issues that I have faced in deciding to stay where I am for now despite my new position. Thank you for speaking up on this issue despite the risk. Your humility is an important addition to the conversation.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I’m so glad the video wasn’t grating to listen to amidst differences.
It always goes back to Deborah.
I recommend watching Mike Wingers video series on women in ministry..... its very biblical!
Stumbled on to your channel as I have been loosely following the recent events in the SBC. You have done one of the better jobs in explaining the complementarian position. As a Pentecostal I come from a more egalitarian back ground. I have never given the topic of the roll of women a lot of thought from the perspective I have heard many share recently....very interesting to hear the perspective. A few thoughts from the "other side" to add to the conversation.
It is fascinating to hear Baptist and complementarians call those of a different viewpoint more liberal. In my experience we see Baptists in general as being much more liberal when you take the entirety of scripture into context. Not a bad thing...just a traditional Pentecostals experience and viewpoint living in a "Baptist dominated world".
Can you, or someone clarify this, because it is still not clear to me. I understand the position of women not being able to pastor. It is actually a position that I hold with room for few exceptions - many of which you outlined in your video. But when it comes to teaching where is the complementarian line drawn at specifically/literally. Can a women teach in any capacity within the "4 walls" or confines of the church? What about to children or other women? I know personally that is restricted in many churches in the south. That seems extreme and not typical, but again it is my experience. Can a woman not speak in front of mixed company or behind the pulpit in any capacity/for any reason? I know it's an extreme example (at least from POV), but what if a woman is singing a solo (I assume that is allowed)...would they be permitted to speak/read scripture in the context of that song as precursor or successor to singing? In my world that is no different than preaching and perfectly normal/healthy.
When scripture is so full of women that play vital rolls in ministry across the centuries...I wonder if the whole notion has gone to an unintended extreme? To say, for example, that Deborah or Miriam were not serving as a preacher/teacher/pastor or whatever word you want to use in the context of the work they did for the Lord seems to be out of context to those of us that would be labeled as egalitarian. I don't believe those women cared what you called them, but they were leading God's people just the same...
I heard a clip from the SBC meeting that mentioned nearly 2000 churches with woman on staff as leaders (couldn't say to what capacity)....from my perspective again, it is normal for women to serve in all kinds of ministry rolls in a local church. If this is a real problem within the SBC of adherence to scripture...is their a shortage of men to do the work in the SBC...or does it mean that those churches need to be shut down if not brought into agreement with the Baptist faith and message (never heard that phrase until recently and I kind of like it). That's just an outsider looking in and wondering how it will be addressed in the context of the SBC. It is fascinating to me to see this much discussion over something that rarely if ever enters our minds.
I am definitely praying for my brothers and sisters in the SBC as they navigate this. I pastor a small Pentecostal church surrounded by Baptists in the south. I have one dear brother whose local church is wrestling with how they proceed in light of what is going on.
I pray my comments are not seen negatively. No ill will meant at all. It is a very big deal to the Lord because it is a big deal to a large number of his people. I agree that this is a 2nd or even possibly a 3rd level issue. I am glad it is not salvific. I know we certainly don't see our Baptist friends in sin over this, and I pray that we are not viewed that way either.
I appreciate it your handling of this discussion. I am reminded of Tim Keller's more recent articles on the decline and renewal of the American church. Some of the ideas you expressed are similar to the conclusions he reaches in chapter 3.
I found this video helpful and edifying. Thanks.
Thanks Pastor Ortlund. I definitely want to hear more from you on this. I'm going to go looking for anything you've put out already. This is a necessary meditation on this topic, the only thing it lacks is more of it!
Good job, thank you for reminding me to be kind and gentle ❤
I would be curious about on your Triage of Sabbath-keeping, specifically Seventh-day Sabbath vs Sunday worship. Love the concept!!
I appreciated your breakdown of this very much! This is one of the kindest humblest discussions I have heard on the topic (and I have heard many). One point you made I hoped to expand on - you mentioned how egalitarians often portray complementarians as not believing that women can teach them anything and how that was unfair. It sounds like you have had a different experience, but I grew up in a community of complimentarians where many of them would said such things and worse. It is unfortunately a part of the complimentarian camp.
So sad you were exposed to those men who do not value godly women. I was hurt by many women growing up and recently have been deeply awed and appreciative of several godly women to whom I look to for
Counsel. One in particular at 84 has an awesome sense of humor and even more impressive memory of Scripture. I choose her over most of the men in our small group.
Thanks Gavin, helpful stuff.
I didn't know you were American Baptist USA! That's technically a Mainline denomination, right? I'm an even bigger fan knowing you are a fellow MAINLINE Protestant!
What did you think he was
@@goyonman9655 I just knew he was Baptist
I always thought he was pretty academically astute and ecumenically open (aka liberal, by Baptist standards), but realizing that he's ABC, he seems very conservative to me now knowing that.
Given that the credobaptist position is just the most biblical and historically-true tradition from the earliest Christianity, it's just understandable that Baptists are generally cool like that 😎
Isn’t American Baptist the branch that ordains practicing homosexuals? That’s how it is in Washington state. Or are there two versions of American Baptist? The one I’m familiar with ordains women too.
Hey Gavin really big fan of your channel. Love the wisdom, love, and truth of your heart in these matters. I would love to hear you talk about Jonathan Edwards and some of the early Church fathers and their perspectives and experiences of the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Would be such a stellar video or series!
Theological triage: love it! This is a healthy and helpful concept
This video is a welcomed addition to the conversation about bringing in priestesses. It's wonderful to see Bible believing Christians taking a stand.
Thank you - I'm also torn here because I've been blessed by God through Rick Warren's ministry and yet have been so uncomfortable with the rhetoric war happening between him and the SBC. I'm also super thankful of your last comment on not letting these disagreements become escalations as our culture loves to escalate things to the most extreme conclusion. Blessings and may God safeguard you and keep you!
First video I watched from you. I appreciate the way you communicate regarding this issue. There is a desire to love those who may not agree with you and a eagerness to discern God's word.
I have been wrestling on this topic and asking God why it's not very clear such that everyone can be on the same page. But I know God is much wiser than me and has a reason for that. My job is to rely on the Spirit to direct me in understanding the word.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. Your opening remarks asked for more issues in need of theological triage. Have you done one on affirming vs non-affirming views on homosexual practice? That would be beneficial, brother.
Thank you for your work on RUclips, Gavin! Are you familiar with Rev. Calvin Robinson? It would be so cool to have him on the channel to discuss Protestantism and current affairs. I know you've got a lot on your plate currently though so no pressure!
You are wonderful. I am Catholic leaning, but I have the highest regard for you.
Good thoughts! I’m in agreement with you here.
How would you think through the related issue of women preaching on Sunday morning or teaching a mixed audience Sunday school class?
I’ve been thinking through this for a few months now (and read a lot), and I’m not convinced by hard complementarians. (Though I consider myself a complementarian when it comes to the office of elder).
-Would this go in the second or third bucket of triage?
-Do you know any good resources for this question?
This video is incredibly helpful - we are in dire need of reclaiming a level of charity with our brothers and sisters in the Church at large.
You mentioned briefly the position of having women as pastors but not as elders (though I know that wasn’t the focus of the video). Do you have any reading suggestions for this position in particular? Our church has landed on this position but I’d love some historical/theological resources if there are any you’re familiar with or would recommend
Thanks for this!
I'm not a Baptist but I care about what happens to my Baptist friends. As an outsider listening to Rick Warren and Al Mohler make their case, I notice that Dr. Mohler said the issue of female pastors had already come up and had been decided 30 years previously. I didn't hear Rick Warren explain what had happened in 30 years that SBC should change their minds. I also didn't hear Rick Warren explain why he chose to start appointing women pastors first and then demand that SBC be Ok with it, instead of campaigning first to have SBC change their rules and then appoint female pastors after SBC was Ok with it. It seems like Rick Warren was trying to force the issue by appointing female pastors who would be upset if SBC didn't change their rules. It doesn't seem like very orderly conduct and I don't see how SBC could allow it without causing other problems. If people inside SBC really want female pastors this confrontational approach probably isn't helping their cause. Unless they are Ok with destabilizing SBC.
Just because Al Mohler says something doesn't make it true. It was not settled 30 years ago or there would not be any churches with women having the title of pastor in the SBC. They would have been kicked out 30 years ago. Is Al confessing he and other powerful SBC men allowed churches to stay that were not in compliance with the Baptist Faith and Message for 30 years? I guess he must be. Al is using revisionist history to push "his" point through. He knew that just by saying it, listeners would not disagree. Powerful men get away with a lot.
I love your approach here, brother, and the heart behind it. For what it's worth, I think you may have misunderstood Warren on the "one word" point (around 39:16 in your video), because unless I'm mistaken, he was saying there was only "one word" in the Baptist Faith & Message that Saddleback disagreed with - NOT that it all came down to a disagreement over "one word" in scripture. Anyway, thank you for your thoughtfulness and Christlikeness in speaking about these issues. We need more voices like this in the culture!!
Truly my fav yt channel
Great video!
Great service to the body to encourage biblical Higher thought thanks
Thank you, brother
Kind regards Kim
Thanks again for another phenomenal video, always appreciate your intelligent and informative yet gentle approach to all these topics. You're one of the best witnesses of Christ I've seen in these arenas, greatly looking forward to your future work. God Bless.
Thank you!
Fabulous video. I find it interesting to reflect on the Anglican communion and the "rank" of this issue. Across the Anglican communion as a whole we have managed to muddle along and make it work as a third-rank issue, even though I agree with you that it's second-rank. That's true even in the GAFCON fellowship (I'm from Sydney diocese, so very much a part of that). We have a strong enough common heritage and identity, and with effort can keep focused on our common call to Christ's mission, that we can relate and work together at a very high level, even though we know that this is a very significant difference (and even at that level, it has created significant conflict). For us, in our very loose "fellowship of dioceses and provinces" across the world, it kind of functions as third-rank.
But ISTM that when it's treated as a third-rank issue at the level of individual dioceses (not to mention individual churches!), that's when it creates pain, tension and difficulties that substantively impacts ministry and mission. That is, it is more properly second-rank - and the closer your institutional and missional engagement together, the more it needs to be treated that way. Might be wrong, but that's my impression. (Or maybe the Anglican communion is just weird.)
And change of tack: but I think this is very helpful when thinking about the issue that actually provoked the creation of GAFCON within Anglicanism: not the LGBTQI+ issue per se, but that of the status of the Bible as the Word of God and what that means for our alignment or non-alignment with modern Western culture (and yes, that deeper authority issue presented itself through the LGBTQI+ challenge). The worldwide Anglican communion managed to "ride out" the debates over women elders (presbyters/priests and bishops), precisely because it is a second-rank issue. But the Bible as the Word of God - and the way in which that is or isn't maintained in the way we respond to the question of human sexuality - is absolutely a first-rank issue. GAFCON chose the right issue over which to make its "theological heresy" stand.
Thanks again - a clear, gracious and helpful contribution to the conversation.
Anglican here: I hate that people view these things as 'ranks'. It's not helpful. At all. In the main, it allows lots of individuals to play loose with words and doctrines and pushes the bounds. Anglicanism is a perfect example of this creeping rank-ism. It eats you alive. Women priests and bishops; gay priests and bishops; same sex married priests and bishops; and now the first transgender arch-deacon. See how it goes?
Ide love to get your thoughts and summation of the free grace/lordship debates. You’re charity towards those whom you disagree with is a breath of fresh air in the academic world. Thanks brother
You are a great explainer.
This was quiet helpful. We definitely are talking past each other a lot.
Gavin, I would be very interested to hear you make the case for why The Trinity is a First Rank Doctrine? I take it you see the Apostle’s Creed as an incomplete or insufficient statement of Christian Faith? What exactly should a person understand that he is affirming, when he affirms “The Doctrine of the Trinity?” How much disagreement on interpretation of the Trinity is permissible?
Thank you again for your careful and charitable handling of these subjects. Your work is a blessing to me.
Gavin, I listen often. Could you do something on NDE's (Near Death Experiences).... Thank you
I would love you to do a video on how outsides forces such as you mention at the end are influencing how “evangelicals “ are perceived and also encouraged to vote. A discussion of the use of fear as a motivation from a biblical perspective would be very interesting.
Great job.
Excellent.
We definitely needed a video on this. You should get Dr. Carmen imes on an video!
Thanks!
I appreciate the commentary, Dr. O. I have some differences in perspective coming from the more traditionalist side (dare I name drop RL Dabney? Don't cancel me Dr. O!) but think you laid the arguments for both sides well. I 100% agree that the historical theology considerations are underappreciated by most on both sides. On the one hand, you are correct regarding the precedent of female deacons (though I take a male only deacons perspective based on the qualifications passages in the Pastorals). On the other hand, I don't think we can disconnect the numerous examples of the drift into apostasy so many formerly "mainline" Protestant denominations have experienced once they capitulated on this issue (hence, my name dropping of Dabney and his warning on this in the late 19th century). Currently being in North Carolina, there is quite a stark difference in Biblical fidelity to issues of sex and sexuality, Nicene orthodoxy, and the historic confessions of the Reformation in those churches that have maintained the traditional perspective on female elders and those that have embraced the egalitarian view. You can just see it in the churches around here. Especially in this age of apostasy in which the rainbow cult (I want the rainbow back as a Christian symbol) is bringing an enormous amount of pressure to bear on any Christian church that would profess traditional and/or Biblical morality and order (just look at the LA Dodgers this past week with the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence"), I think the balance lies with the egalitarians to prove their perspective. I just don't see it as tenable. Also, considering the levels of abuse in public schools and secular workplaces compared to SBC churches, I think the broader issue in the SBC is being used as a cudgel to erode local church autonomy. Though I am not currently in an SBC church (1689 right now), I may find myself in one again after I move for work next year, so this issue does resonate. Anyways, sorry for rambling, Dr. O! Appreciate your thoughts, brother.
I am soft complementarian. I would not want a woman to be a pastor, or teacher on a Sunday morning. The latter happens in my church, not the former. However it is noticeable that our women are better teachers and would arguably also be better at eldership than our men.
But I have not found any of the arguments pro women teaching or elders convincing. ( Prophets yes. Teaching children fine.) I would rather go with what seems right by God. But I also would not leave my functioning fellowship where we believe in salvation by grace, look out for the Body, and share the Gospel.
I'm grateful I can be a (female) teacher in a university, though I think I would refuse an invite to teach in Church on a Sunday.
This is what makes it difficult for me. I’m complementarian, but why should women be able to teach in universities but not churches? I’ve heard great teachings from women - why shouldn’t they be allowed to teach?
@repentantrevenant9776 I don't know!! I find it hard too. I find teaching on homosexuality even harder.
@@repentantrevenant9776 We shouldnt do everything we physically are capable of. Doesn't matter if women could theoretically do it, its not about their capability. Its about our roles given to us by God and women leading the church/family isn't what God has assigned them to
@repentantrevenant9776 In my understanding, teaching from the pulpit is how a pastor serves and exercises authority over the local Church. This is different from teachers or professors teaching in the university, where the audiences are not studying in the church context. The purpose of going to the university is different from the purpose of listening to the preached Word in the Church.
@@JoeThePresbapterian sometimes those categories seem to blend together. I’ve heard sermons from women pastors that are so full of information that they could be university lectures, but are also inspiring and convicting - some of the best sermons I’ve heard.
Can a woman teach theology or philosophy in a university? What about history? If so, can she teach Biblical studies? Can she give lectures on those topics in a church building, on days other than Sundays? At what point is she “preaching the Word of God” versus giving an academic lecture?
I really appreciate all the information and how clearly you explained everything and especially your kindness and graciousness, and very loving spirit not argumentative. It enables me to hear what you’re saying very easily. As a woman I want to know how to articulate these things. My priority is to go by the scripture and it’s very clear that that is your priority. It is a compelling argument in the history of the church. This is only been an issue now. The church needs to do a better job at pulling the value of women. Even if they don’t go into leadership, we are essential as part of the body just like men are.
A good video. On the slippery slope argument, do you think that the gender role distinction helps gird against the slide though? So while egal. doesn't mean an inevitable slide, it removes a safety barrier to it?
Gavin, this is extremely helpful to me. Thank you for speaking to those of us that treat it as a 2nd rank issue technically, but a 1st rank issue emotionally. That is most definitely me.
I would absolutely be in favor of a video or article on slavery and scripture, maybe even delving into recent arguments raised by atheists that say "no, American chattel slavery is *not* different than the type of slavery described in scripture."
There are at *least* 3 views on slavery in the 19th century American church. The pro slavery, the abolitionists, and the 'middle ground.' I was taught the 'middle ground' position on slavery and the Bible many years ago, but in recent years I have been reading abolitionists from the 19th century and I think that view is right. Abolitionists teach that slavery is a sin and that the Scripture teaches that slavery is a sin. There are different versions of abolitionism in how to understand the New and Old Testament. The book Condensed anti Slavery Bible Argument takes the view that the Old Testament and New Testament reject slavery, based on a study of context, Greek, and Hebrew, all while holding Scripture is without error and 100 percent written by God. Some abolitionists allowed that some slavery existed in the Old Testament but not the New.
Paul says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus”
Primitive Christianity did not attack slavery directly; but it acted as though slavery did not exist. By inspiring the best of its children with this heroic charity, it remotely prepared the way for the abolition of slavery.
In the Christian cemeteries there is no difference between the tombs of slaves and those of the free.
To reproach the Church of the first ages with not having condemned slavery in principle, and with having tolerated it in fact, is to blame it for not having let loose a frightful revolution, in which, perhaps, all civilization would have perished with Roman society.
The first missionaries of the Gospel, men of Jewish origin, came from a country where slavery existed. But it existed in Judea under a form very different from the Roman form. The Mosaic Law was merciful to the slave and carefully secured his fair wage to the laborer.
In Jewish society the slave was not an object of contempt, because labor was not despised as it was elsewhere. No man thought it beneath him to ply a manual trade. These ideas and habits of life the Apostles brought into the new society which so rapidly grew up as the effect of their preaching.
As this society included, from the first, faithful of all conditions-rich and poor, slaves and freemen-the Apostles were obliged to utter their beliefs as to the social inequalities which so profoundly divided the Roman world.
“For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal., iii, 27-28; cf. I Cor., xii, 13).
From this principle St. Paul draws no political conclusions. It was not his wish, as it was not in his power, to realize Christian equality either by force or by revolt.
Such revolutions are not effected of a sudden.
Christianity accepts society as it is, influencing it for its transformation through, and only through, individual souls.
What it demands in the first place from masters and from slaves is, to live as brethren-commanding with equity, without threatening, remembering that God is the master of all-obeying with fear, but without servile flattery, in simplicity of heart, as they would obey Christ (cf. Eph., vi, 9; Col., iii, 22-4; iv, 1).
“Chattel slavery” that most people call to mind, which involves forcing people into service indefinitely, unwavering cruelty, and the reduction of people to mere property. Although this was common in the African-American slave trade (and gravely wrong), it’s not what the Old Testament describes.
Old Testament slavery commonly refers to a process of indentured servitude that the poor and destitute (or those with enormous debts) would make use of temporarily.
They could “sell themselves” as servants (“slaves”) to pay off a debt or obtain sustenance for themselves and their families in a time and place with no government welfare programs. Although this type of “slavery” is a hard thing to experience, it is not intrinsically wrong.
Christ’s teaching to love God above all things and to love our neighbors as ourselves does mean that the practice of chattel slavery is intrinsically wrong.
He may not have laid out a policy plan against slavery in particular, but he spoke plainly and powerfully about a way of love that is incompatible with chattel slavery.
As a complementarian, I appreciate your take(s). Is there a category for something to be a 2nd rate issue in a local church and only 3rd rank in the convention?
There's 'something', but I'm not sure rank-ism is very Biblical...
A really thorough and gracious treatment of a controversial topic. Thanks!
Have you done a video on how the propitiatory nature of the Mass in Catholicism contradicts the finished work of the Cross as taught most clearly in Hebrews Chapters 7-10? A first tier issue in my book...and probably in your triage book too
Hey Gavin, I was wondering as a Protestant who’s pretty young in the Faith I want to learn the History of our Branch of Christianity. I was wondering what are some good resources for this. Thank you.
Chech out jordan b cooper
I think you've already come to the right place. 🙂
@@morghe321 Definitely. I just wanted maybe like a lecture series from 33AD to now. Or a book but this channel is definitely a quality resource.
@@jordand5732 Will do.
@davidkomzyuk, I understand. Jordan B Cooper, as mentioned here, is a good resource. If you're not a Lutheran, you will only disagree with him on a few things here and there, when he speaks as a Lutheran. But his channel is definitely a good place to go if you want to learn about protestantism.
I didn't realize that it's so complicated to be a baptist.
😊 That made me smile since I am currently thinking about joining a Baptist church near where I live.
I only went to one Bible study class so far however. Since I studied theology myself, let's say it was an interesting experience. Not sure yet if interesting in a good sense or a bad one. I hope God will provide me with some clarity on what to do.
There was definitely a lot of "ego" going on.
Might have missed it, so I apologize. How do we know what is second, third and fourth rank doctrinal issues?
This - as usual - has been both expertly and sensitively put by Gavin. I certainly have experienced in ministry this 2nd rank issue being emotionally treated as a 1st-tier matter by people looking for a reason for a church not living up to growth or health expectations. I'm curious (and this is probably a larger discussion on a new topic), is the scripture's declaration that the church is empowered to bind and loose impactful on this matter? Also wondering - is there a book on how 2nd rank doctrines affect living out the gospel, citing examples and showing why it can't be solved? (...meaning, since we're called to something more radical than merely agreeing to disagree)
Thanks Gavin, I attend a Presbyterian church and I’ve been kind of shocked at how they sneer at and misinterpret the spirit of complementarian attitudes. It’s almost like complementarian is a dirty word.
When a lot of one's experiences with complementarians comprises representatives like John "Go home!" MacArthur, Smirkin' Burke, Wayne "83 rules" Grudem, John "Take one for the team" Piper, etc., it's hard not to think of complementarianism as a dirty word.
Mike Winger did an outstanding job with this topic. Really went into a deep dive on egalitarianism. His review of the scholarship surprised him (and me too!). It was surprisingly really poor. I’d recommend you check it out, Gavin (and others, too!).
I like Mike Winger, but a lot of scholars were not impressed with how he handled this issue. Even certain complimentarian leaning scholars gave him criticisms.
@@eddiep6369 do you have references to complimentarian scholars criticizing him, I’d like to check that out
@Eddie P Well, of course the egalitarian scholars took issue with it. He ripped it apart. I can't imagine they'd have been pleased.
I watched Mike Winger. I appreciate that he relied on scripture over historical doctrines and traditions.
@@eddiep6369 Echo the above. Any sources?
Great take
Have you done an episode on head coverings?
Rick Warren's arguments as you frame them seem to be: we need to be inclusive and not have divisions, truth is held by an elite class, and everything boils down to power dynamics. These are all key philosophical components of the World Economic Forum. Rick Warren has been actively involved with the WEF for years and has publicly said his goal is to use church networks to act as a conduit for the implementation of the WEF's agenda.
I have no idea to what extent he shared those presuppositions before getting involved with the WEF or to what extent the WEF has influenced his thinking after joining. And it has no bearing on the Christian arguments for or against ministry roles for women. However, the SBC severing ties with his church could have the benefit of protecting them from that corrupting influence.
@travtotheworld
If this is true, then it's very concerning.
Do you have links and references regarding this matter? I would really love to know more about it. Thanks so much.
This I did not know. Yeah anyone with connections to the WEF I do not trust.
@@ponderwoodtimes I was very curious reading this and literally just googled Rick Warren + WEF.
I haven't read anything I feel strong enough to share, but there are definitely some connections. Apparently he attended at Davos in 2008 and had some connection in 2022 as well.
@Downhaven
Thank you for this! Perhaps the original commenter will have greater insight than we do, given the strong claims.
I'm also now wondering if other pastors in our convention, or the SBC itself has ties to it. Not accusing, but I find that these instances are usually not isolated.
@@ponderwoodtimes I'd recommend a RUclips video called "Rick Warren Answers the Davos Question." It's just an old clip of him speaking about it. You can find a full speech he gave at Davos as well.