@@HlewagastizHoltijaz Don't listen to him, of course they are different people. Can't you see they look different? A hat, a moustache, and a goatie. Seth don't have any of them. :P
you prolly dont give a shit but does any of you know of a method to get back into an instagram account? I was stupid forgot my password. I love any tips you can offer me!
As someone that is actually named Todd, I always feel for him. Lol. I keep him in my prayers lmao Seth I LOVE this vids shirt!!! Where do you find your Uber cool Tee’s?
Seth actually had a skit about why Todd is always the bad guy in these videos. It's just because Todd sits across from him, so it works well with the camera angles.
@@TheLawliet10 well, but one time todd wasn't the bad guy and he switched places with that guy with the mustache (can't remember his name) but it was in the "x awesome player traits" video :) so todd wasn't the bad guy, but wasn't the good guy / awesome either *g
To be fair, no one was really being bad in this video. Mike was the one causing friction in the group, but he wasn't necessarily doing anything wrong or bad.
Yeah, a lot of advice on how to be a good table top player doubles as advice on how to be a decent human being. Communicate your thoughts. Listen to the people around you. Be open to compromise. Understand that it's not always all about you. Be ready to commit some effort. Know that sometimes it doesn't work out without it being anyone's fault.
I was expecting a rehash of the old "Hack and Slash vs Story Driven vs Roleplayer" dichotomy. Or because of out of character stuff like political differences or bad past experiences with one another. I honestly have never heard someone bring this element up, and it clearly is an important one to consider. Nice job Seth.
Frankly, I don't see the issue with this. Assuming the guy plays well with the group during the game action, so what if he doesn't want to be involved with the idle chit chat? Given the arch-types presented here, I can see the disinterest.
@@brianjacob8728 It's basically saying that he doesn't really care about being friends with the other players outside of the game. That's fine if your group is 100% focused on the game, but it would kind of irk me personally. I wouldn't play with someone I couldn't have a beer with outside the game.
@@brianjacob8728 I think Matt Colville put it pretty well. If you're playing these types of games, you really are playing with "the group." You just happen to be playing that particular PnP or board game that week (or every week). If the GM doesn't feel like running the game, or isn't prepared, the group still gets together to play Talisman, or Dune, or Uno, or maybe a one-shot on a different (or the same!) system ran by someone else in the group, or whatever other examples Matt had. Because it's a group of people who are friends beyond just playing a particular PnP game, and that's the type of group that will actually stay together. It's not like work where coworkers may just be coworkers, etc. While there are probably groups that *are* strictly focused on the game, I suspect that's pretty rare. Ultimately I suppose it depends. If the entire group is this sterile "only in it for the game" type of environment, and all those people enjoy that environment and are cool with it, then that's fine. But that's probably not why the majority of people are playing these types of games. I like how Seth put it: we're all friends but we are all here to play this particular game (or type of game) in a particular way. The game is (or may be) critical but so are the people playing it together. Anyways, just my two cents.
@@Illersvansen I mean, I understand that other ppl may not like it but that's how some ppl are, I for one play DND for the sake of playing DND and am not really interested in chit-chatting with the ppl otherwise, and that's fine, it's nothing personal or anything
I’m more of a gamer, I am there for the game. I personally know everyone at the table and they all know each other, but on Friday’s we come together for one reason: to play D&D. I put a lot of effort throughout my week to make my players a campaign worth playing, and if they want to hang out, they have the rest of the week to do it. Friday’s are D&D night, and no distraction that keeps coming up are welcome. Occasional laughs and side chats are good, but they need to remember why we are there
@@--enyo-- In person was always hard for me as a DM. I find online, I have less social pressure and I find it easier to run my role as DM with my computer in front of me to look things up on the fly.
Unless we're under a special time crunch, I am happy to allow my players 20 minutes or so for BSing before we start rolling. However, once we started playing, latecomers are discouraged from taking time away from the game with social catchup
There's also a lot to be said here about personalities that don't work well together for D&D or Co-operative games in general. While our group hasn't started a game up yet, there is a friend of ours that my sister and I have already kind of decided to avoid inviting if we can. Not because we don't like him, or he's not fun to be around, but because nearly every Co-Op game we used to play together when we'd meet on the regular would end in disaster. He's just the sort of person that thinks nothing of being silly or trolling the group for their own enjoyment, whether or not people are getting frustrated by it. We will still hang out and play Smash bros all the time though, just D&D isn't the best fit.
Yep, gaming priorities are huge. Years ago I ran a campaign with a close group of friends as the players. It was an "alt" gaming group; we all had been in a long-term campaign run by another friend, and when that friend wasn't available, we'd play my campaign. We had a great mix of socialization and game play, and few issues for a long time. The other GM friend's schedule changed, and he became available more, so I finally brought in him in - a very close and long-time friend. But his gaming goals were different - for the rest of us, it was all about, essentially, writing a story together: I created the world and the NPCs, and the players acted and interacted within it, and the story came about from this interplay. The story was the thing, in all its aspects - learning, exploring, fighting, etc. We all had fun. But this other GM friend had fun by WINNING. He is a very nice person in life, but in games, he must WIN. He is a rules lawyer, and a very sharp one. He would pick apart everything possible, to see how he could further his characters, looking for every advantage and loophole. His characters rapidly became more powerful than the rest of the party put together, and my work load as a GM doubled, tripled. What had been fun became work, as I had to constantly be on my toes and hammering down great depths of technical details so as to not be outmaneuvered by the rules lawyer, while everyone else just wanted to play the game. Even the other players became bothered by it, though most of them tried to laugh it off. Eventually we just stopped playing, because it wasn't fun anymore, it was a chore. We're all still friends, but I put so much into creating that world, and it all just... stopped. He just had fun in a different way than the rest of us - he's not a bad guy, his game-priorities were just too different.
We just had a lot of very stressful drama in our group that cumulated in someone choosing to leave (though I would've had to kick her out if she hadn't left voluntarily - she did/said some things that were really hurtful to me as the DM and to the rest of the group). I'm extremely grateful for this video because in hindsight this was 100% the issue. We first started with only 3 players, and I used to get so frustrated because I'd spend hours preparing a session and we'd end up talking for way longer than we actually played - sometimes we wouldn't even play at all! Slowly more friends started to join the group, and the other girl who only wanted to socialize had to leave (for unrelated reasons). So now this one friend wanted to keep using our game time to socialize the way that we always had, meanwhile the rest of us are having a great time focusing on the game. It got to the point where we were all upset with her because she would arrive late, wasn't paying attention, etc. This made me sympathize with the fact that the entire mood of the table shifted dramatically around her. It used to be that she was having fun but I was unhappy, now I'm much happier but she wasn't. Thanks for giving me a new perspective.
This has happened in almost every group I played. luckily we always cut out the fat, so to speak, and had some good games going. however I did meet people who had issues with either the game itself or with other people at the table, not related to the game. I have seen friendships end during game sessions, where the game wasn't at fault but some outside arguments that unfortunately came up. seen break ups between lovers etc. again after those issues everything became smooth sailing. rather have a small group that is on the same page it's better than having just a big group.
that wasn't even the worst instance. one time we played dungeons and dragons 3. 5 and we played in a campaign that went on already for a few months. now the back story is that one of the players was in a relationship with the DM which wasn't the issue at first. the problem came up down the road when said player started an affair with another player... of course this came out during a game session which ruined not only the trust between three people but also killed the campaign HARD and my half giant fighter was finally getting good. I just shook my head throughout the whole thing. it was so awkward and depressing. luckily my later groups were much better. my group now has like a rule were when we meet chitchat for about 30 to 40 minutes to get the socializing in then start to play for 2 hours followed by another break for like a few minutes to chitchat. it has been good. we are social animals but are also determined hobbyists so balance is the key here.
Trevor Cormier That’s absurd, are you DMing for children? How do these people handle every other circumstance where people need to collaborate or socialize in mixed gender groups?
The more of these videos Seth puts out the more I’m buying into the theory that he’s never actually had other players. He’s just been spending years with a fake mustache, fake chin beard, and a Ramones tank top and ran around his table like a madman!
I had to get rid of 3 of my 5 players because they didn’t care about the game at all. Now the 2 players who remained and 1 new addition share the same priorities with me, and it’s better than ever
@@lucasaguirre3113 glad you enjoyed it. I've been wanting to run a game for ages but never had a group until recently. It's an absolute pleasure to play it
Just went through this with my last group. We reached high levels and one of the players seemed to prefer a mid level grind type of game. Kind of bummed me out and discouraged me from throwing in all the prep work. Took a 4 month break and the gaming group has restructured itself without feelings getting hurt. All in all I’m just excited to run the game again.
I'll refrain from my full rant but I have experienced everyone of those and much more (as I'm sure you have) including general assholery in my ~8 years of GMing. That said I think you covered it just about perfectly as usual. As I tell all my players: if you're not having fun, the worst thing you can do is keep playing for others' sake. Your not gonna hurt my feelings, just let me/us know and we can talk about it. Communication is key. Loved the video as always, keep up the great work, Seth!
Just catching up with Seth's videos after I found his channel a few weeks ago and I've also encountered all of his examples and more. I have been GMing for 36 years though, so had plenty of time to encounter these. I even left a campaign myself (I was a player) because the investigation/science/problem solving part was well done but combat was throw 20+ dice and 'blam' enemies gone every time. So boring and very little risk to the players.
Player compatibility is something I think many people overlook. I have several good friends that I do not game with...and this has preserved our friendship.
@@Tony-dh7mz they have fun, just not playing tabletop games. Not a hard concept lol. They figured out who to play tapletop with and who not to and avoids drama and conflict.
@@TheCaptinhazmat I get the that not everyone is not going to get RPG’s, it’s not for everyone (for instance, it’s more inclined towards artist/creative types, less so those that would enjoy watching/playing sports etc) but what kind of game are you playing if you have issues with fun? (drama? conflict? I’m assuming within context that’s outside the game?) There shouldn’t be drama and conflict, it’s a game, (normally a cooperative game to boot)
@@Tony-dh7mz Well, we didn't have "fun" when gaming because we were not compatible, and if we had kept trying to do RPG's together I suspect we would no longer be friends. Instead, the friend in question, I see on board game nights, and we have a blast.
@@danielramsey6141 Got mine already. Not enough gear and software. No XP and character development. But overall it is the only starter I bought as it has right set of dice.
Oh man, I recently ran into the "we want different things" problem, and it was indeed an online game. The GM was just super keen to hang out before or after a game and would sometimes cancel games last minute for whatever reason but say we could still hang out, but I don't think the group chemistry was there for that, even though he wanted us to be friends outside the game. It was kind of awkward but I didn't think it was a common thing, so thanks for making me feel better about it :)
Seth, you made this just at the right time for me. My old DnD group imploded after some drama (that I admittedly caused) and since then I've tried running with some other people, and now I understand why I have began to like the game less and less: They only care about socializing, not the game. I always blamed my world or stories to not be interesting enough or that I didn't give players enough to care about, but I think I have found the real issue. I was already thinking about not DMing for my group anymore, and I think that this just cements that I should not, as all of my players don't care about the game that much and just make stupid joke characters that infuriate me (and that I usually end up killing because they do dumb shit like escort the guards to the dead queen that they just killed. Yes that actually happened in one of my campaigns). So i just wanna say thanks for helping me keep my love for table tops by helping me identify why I'm not enjoying them anymore. Ive been in contact with some of my buddies that went off to college and are good players to see if we can get an online game started, so wish me luck
Yeah prepare for conflict if you have a table with a mix of casual gamers, especially ones who are casual about things like time or just trample on the GM's plans and don't take it seriously, and hardcore RPers. That's not going to be fun as both sets won't be getting their needs met. The group needs to have a reasonable set of like minded players. Control issues are another example of conflict areas.
I think Seth might have a video on this, but I think this a common problem among GM's. At least the ones that just want to be writers. I have this problem alot, but have tried to temper it. Anyway, world builder/writer GM's, which it sounds like you might be, really care about whether the players are engaged in thier world. If they aren't it really ruins the writer GM's experience. Best thing to do is either realize we can't treat our games like novels or find a group that wants to tell a story with you. Apologies if I read the situation incorrectly though.
Daniel Pucher yeah ur right, defiantly a writer gm, but it’s mostly on my own time that I write stuff for the world. My (now old) group just didn’t even care about the story, much less anything in the world. The last campaign we ran was a pirate campaign where they tracked down treasure and accidentally awakened a Kraken. I loved the concept, but my players just didn’t care about the story, only about how funny their character could be. That was my issue
@@danielpucher3367 "I think Seth might have a video on this, but I think this a common problem among GM's. " Sure, GMs put in a lot of work on their world and story, so at some point of course. But it can certainly go too far, especially for a GM who wants to be a novelist and expects players to follow their plot. Players almost never cooperate with that, some more than others. (IMO it's a real problem with many of the modern zero-to-hero adventure paths.) I'm not a "frustrated novelist" type as I try to do things like sourcing the table and making use of PC backgrounds and such and have a looser, more improvisational style, but you're totally right about me wanting player engagement with the world.
Man this video helped me a lot, now I understand why it took me so long to get a group going (spent 1 year looking for a group I like) and why now it's going so well (playing with the guys for 3 years). I had never found before ppl that wanted the same experience as I, I like to play DND for DND sake, not to hang out with others, and I play to create powerfull characters that do cool stuff on a epic setting. Untill I found 2 other guys and a DM that also wanted that I did not found a good group to play at.
I makes such a profound difference when you get to play with a group who have the same priorities as you. It took me far too long to figure that out. Glad you found a group you fit with. Hold on to them as long as you can, and have fun.
As someone who's been on the other side of "When I started my new campaign I just didn't invite them," That shit fucking sucks. It feels like a betrayal, especially since I was the original DM of that group, I taught everyone how to play, then I introduced and nurtured the new guy who wanted to run stuff and eventually fucking scooped my players. No one ever discussed this with me. I only found out because one of the players accidentally texted the group chat that had me in it asking if they were still having a session that day. Communicate. TALK WITH PEOPLE. It might just be a game, but it's a game involving real life actual people.
I only have 4 people in my group (that includes me). We swap playing Dnd and CoC each week. It’s a good change of pace for each week and I think we all have a good balance of taking the game seriously and being nonchalant. We’ve lost 2-3 others because they didn’t really care about playing or they had a bigger priority, but I honestly like having a small group of only three PCs.
BoSSman I’ve started swapping Pulp Cthulhu and Mutants and Masterminds. My players liked Call of Cthulhu but preferred the Pulp game as it was more violent and less investigation and easy death. M&M also gives me an extra week to prepare the Masks of Nyarlathotep game, as M&M is fairly easy to think up or adapt scenarios to fit, as its kind of an adventure if the week type setup.
Nick Manzo We’re actually about to end our CoC campaign and play Pulp. I think the players will enjoy it a lot more and I’m having a blast writing out the campaign.
Recommendation for casual groups: don't bring in a GM from outside. They'll spend a lot more time than you expect prepping the game, won't really be able to mesh with the side conversations, and will likely have a hard time BECOMING friends with the group from that side of the screen ('cause they've got a game crammed in their head at the time).
Great video Seth, your videos got me into Roleplaying, Cyberpunk, Robert E. Howard, and H.P. Lovecraft. Just bought Call of Cthulhu, and am eager to use your advise.
I had to learn this lesson the hard way. My old group I'd been playing with for about two years let some new players in and the group quickly hit the fan on compatibility. We tried changing campaigns twice over five months but the whole thing ended up falling apart and I ended up wanting nothing to do with d&d for a year.
I recently had to come to the conclusion that my son and I just have different goals gaming. I'm about crafting a gritty story with the players where normal (ish) characters struggle against their challenges. He's a high-fantasy power gamer who likes to break games by creating these super-powerful synergies with character class abilities (D&D meets MTG kind of thing). As GM, I generally don't play that way and the game systems I use don't lend themselves to that style of play--which is part of the reason I choose them. We mutually don't find each other's preferred gaming style interesting. But he's studying to be a lawyer and hopefully those skills will help his career... and my retirement. :)
The worst players I've had were the ones who would NEVER read any of the material, they just wanted the GM to explain everything, and the second ones were those who had an axe to grind with the GM and took it out passive-aggressively in-game.
It's extremely important to curate your players. For my current campaign I wrote out a campaign pitch detailing the type of campaign I wanted to run, then I sent it to people I knew I would enjoy playing with.
I have found that in many cases, these situations sort themselves out - the people who are showing up for different reasons than the rest of the group may end up with more excuses to not come until they eventually just leave all together. Obviously, this doesn't happen all the time, but in most of the cases where there has been out of place at the table, they just drifted away. The more difficult issue is when you end up with groups with fundamentally different RPG philosophies. when you get one person who is really into tactical combat and the number crunch and another person who would prefer if the dice were never used, but both want to play and like the rest of the group, that can create problems.
That's where you ask the players what type of game they want to play and majority rules or do what I do and TELL the players what type of game you're going to run from day one and there's no confusion. This is especially important when first forming a group. All too often GM's just "take what they cant get" when it comes to players and then wonder why they can never keep a group going.
It is possible to have adventures balanced so that even the tactical and the no-dicer could get a share of their beloved fix. In this example investigative Mysteries with occasional Ambushes/Battles would be quite possible.
Thanks for the video Seth! I think of these difficulties a lot especially when I play in a game store setting. I can’t really put my thoughts into word (or I am just too lazy). I’m going back to lurking in your videos. Happy new year!
I had a DM years ago who was in it to show everyone how clever he was. You had to play the game the way HE wanted it to go, and if you had the temerity to think of a solution to a problem that made him "look like a fool" (namely using an angle he didn't think of) you would be punished for it. I had to stop playing after a while, which kind of sucked, because it was the only in game in town for a long time...but I just couldn't enjoy it. At all.
Ugh. The “My precious scenario” problem. Leads to railroads and frustrated players every time. I personally love it when my players do the unexpected in my game. It leads to epic situations and stories!! Plus it pushes me to think outside my box taking the broken campaign in another direction. The players don’t know they broke my game unless I tell them...and I don’t. At the session end they praise me for an amazing, epic game that I certainly didn’t plan, but hodge-podged together on the fly with a couple story seeds I’d jotted down long ago. They just think I’m genius when really I’m scrambling to keep a broken campaign going in a different direction. 🤣🤪🤯 Good times!!!
@@rpeterson9182 I had success even in the old days with my Old School Prussian Railroad, because I did build in powerful descriptions, action delivered dramatically, so they all went along. But more ideally, you can write an adventure more as a series of locations, give the players more freedom to cover each location (or a specific task or NPC) in any order. If they fail to get an important clue or a piece of gear, that is where you can improvise them discovering it another way. At the very least, the Town Drunk staggers over and blurts out this thing he's noticed! Then, armed with hopefully enough gear, you lead the players to the final show-down. But what if things don't work out as in your adventure? What if they have a run of bad luck and actually fail a scene in your game? Build in alternatives, "What if they fail?" notes, and give them a safe place to lick their wounds before taking up the thread of the adventure again. Think always of the Majority/Most Likely Consequence and the Minority/Less Likely Consequence at each step of your writing.
Dracopol I do plan. Hours of exhaustive planning thinking up every possible scenario. But my players always manage to surprise me with something every session. Not necessarily something game breaking every session, but surprises nonetheless. I don’t mean to complain though. The group stories we create playing together are always much better than I could come up with on my own. 😉
I can definitely see that this was a problem with my previous group after most of it changed. It switched from a mostly balanced to one that was all social. It wouldn't have been that much of a problem but I didn't particularly like most of the them and didn't even talk to any of them outside the game. I definitely felt I was wasting my time especially when the DM prioritized his girlfriend and her friends that made up the new group.
This video needs to be posted and referred to often. This is by far the most often circumstance that I’ve found over 30 years of gaming. Not bad behavior outright - just differing objectives for their respective free time. The big question for me is how to communicate and quickly find whether the “philosophies” are aligned.
Awesome, video! I have never been able to put it so well. I see this problem so often and get frustrated by it. Now I can just point people to your video!
Seth, these videos are so great! Game companies should put a note about your RUclips channel inside all their books. but I'm getting a little freaked out because the more I watch the harder it is for me to not think of your players as separate people. Characterizations are so distinct that it's really sometimes difficult to see that you're the one playing them. Amazing!
Thanks for this video. "The Five Geek Social Fallacies" was a relevant read for me. While I'm not part of a TTRPG group right now, the lessons and advice here are relevant across all types of social interaction. It helped me realize some things about the group I play Magic: The Gathering with, Geek Social Fallacy #1 in particular.
Once again Mr. Skorkowski, an awesome video. At 3:48, you mention "problem solving" as one of the elements of the game, which is definitely one of my top priorities, but I would qualify and say "team problem solving" in which the players work together to come up with a strategy, plan or solution via talking at the table. The last group that I was in were all nice people that I enjoyed sitting with so the social aspect was awesome, but their game-related priorities were very different than mine. Here are some of the differences I noted: -- Some of the players were more interested in strict roleplaying, based upon the character's initial set of flaws, which led to some humorous moments, but also some that frustrated me. EXAMPLE 1 -- The group makes the plan, but when we go to execute the player with the character who "always forgets the plan" automatically did something else, thus destroying all the work we just did. I asked him, please, at least randomize the bullshit that YOU are having your character do -- roll to see if they deviate from the plan or follow it, which was actually much more fun than just always ruin the plan. EXAMPLE 2 -- Same player has another character in another campaign that is a businessman, so every session he would get his player into business negotiations with NPCs that eat up about 20 mins to an 1 hour of real time while the other people just sit around waiting. He was overemphasize his character's private goals instead of the common goals of all of the members of the party, and as a result he dominated the table. When I asked him not to do that, he responded by saying very little which is a shame because he is a funny guy , is well-versed in rules (almost in a power gamey way, but not as annoying) and very skilled at solving problems; plus he is a good friend of mine. -- Some of the players were straight up solo power gamers rather than team players. These players did not want to discuss how the party could work together to use each of their strengths to cover the other's weaknesses. EXAMPLE 1 - One of them would always play some sort of 5e "Magic User" variant (Sorcerer, Wizard, etc.) and after he did a lot of damage would say , "My character was the MVP in that fight!" as if that was what was important. Great guy and I like him as a person, but too many video games maybe? O_o EXAMPLE 2 - A new guy came to our group, a power gamer who wanted to be able to do everything as multi-classer and make the party deviate from the common goal to pursue gaining new items (e.g., "I have to get plate mail!"). This guy drove me to quit the group when I as a Rogue wanted to look for traps before stepping on a land mine while his character was on the other side of the room doing something else. The DM waived me off from my "meanwhile" and let his character fly back over and fire an arrow safely from above (potentially detonating a bomb next to my character and some others). At that point after 2 1/2 years playing with them, I calmly said "I guess I am not needed here", picked up my mini and dice, and walked away. In short, problem solving can be done by one player (potentially using only one character, esp. with 5e superheroes), or it can be done by the entire table in a brainstorming session and select the best tools (i.e., the combination of characters that, based on their collective abilities, have the best chance of success). When everyone gets to contribute and stays on track with the common goals of ALL party members, it is much more fun to me. Otherwise, power-gamer Boromir with goals that don't match those of the others, you're out of the fellowship.
I've actually been struggling with this in two of my tabletop games. One I run and one I play in. The one I run I have a person who never actively joins in is always on a device. The one I play in just recently changed genres and I am not a fan of the new genre... at all. I really need to bite the bullet and talk to both groups about stuff. Make sure everyone is on the same page. Thanks Seth. This video really helped me.
In our Adventurers League community our local group tries to have a healthy balance of both the social and gaming aspect of D&D. If there is a player having problems, slow, or is the one causing the problem itself, both the DM and other players help to solve the problem. Our group are more into roleplay and we once had a member who was both a problem player and DM. (he railroads, won't let the players roleplay, is on his phone browsing Facebook while he is in the middle of a game as the DM, etc) The admins brought it to his attention and tried to give him pointers and suggestions on how to improve but despite eveyone's efforts he still wasn't willing to change so we made it known that we won't join his table anymore.
Our group just shed a "player who was: Always on the phone, playing games on their laptop (we have laptops at the table, so...), didn't try to learn the rules or their skills or their spells, showed up when sick (sharing the viruses... yay.), never really paid attention to the gameplay, and had recently been stopped at cheating their dice rolls. - My players and I unanimously voted them out.
One of my first groups I joined in Los Angeles, We had 4 different conflicting characters and The DM adjusted by letting us split up the two groups that had to work together to stop their shared enemy. he even let some pvp moments as long as no killing or the campaign would end with the world (dm made an in game reason we needed to stay alive). Probably had 4 sessions of trouble as we were learning how to work it. after that it became some of the best rp I've ever been in. out of the game civil...My character Lauranthaine was in an Elvish mob who ended up Combining with the Chief Of the Guard rangers and Pirate King (the other player fell off)
In my group we have a rule Any PVP is allowe IF the following conditions are met: Both players must talk it out and agree how the PVP should happen and The GM (me) then has to accept it.
@@natanoj16 you know never have I seen a Dm rise to these occasions. it turned into such a drama within a drama filled with sending secret messages to the dm etc...I had to quickly rp and think subterfuge and wow, its so hard to replicate though
It's interesting to see how this evolves over time! Since I last watched the video I've joined two new groups, one online and one local. In both cases it was an ad/post that got the group together. So with these groups I just wanted a game and it was understood that they were strangers. But over the course of playing with them for a while and getting to know them, the social element of looking forward to getting together becomes a factor. When I was young, it happened to be that my best friends were also into gaming and we had no real-world responsibilities so the game was something we organized our lives around.
Glad I came across this video. We've moved from 5e to a more OSR type fantasy game. One player loves it, the other player hates his character (he rolled low), and the min-maxer hates that he hasn't figured out how to break the game by the time he's reached second level. I've been blaming myself and I'm unable to find a common ground to make everyone happy and enjoy what they're doing.
Thanks for the insight! I've been trying to game with my family for the past two months, including my daughter's boyfriend. Sadly, the two girls are just silly, my wife is the one who can't seem to get past the rules (though she's getting better), and the boyfriend is really into the gaming aspect. I want to play so badly and to give the girls the lessons that games like this instill in them, I'm just losing my mind because I feel like I'm herding cats!
Sorry to say, but those things are out of your control and probably won't change for the better. Similar situation that I was in, and we quit playing about a year and a half ago. It just didn't work for everyone and the problems couldn't be resolved. Good luck with your attempt.
What game are you playing? If it’s D&D or Call of Cthulhu or something I can see how people might not be immediately able to get into it, remember rules if it’s not their top priority etc. One thing I’ve learnt is that anything in life - from a game to basic public health recommendations- you just can’t make people care about if they don’t want to. So an idea might be try something very rules-lite to start. Play a Powered by the Apocalypse game where everyone is a cat. Play some home brew where there’s few to no dice rolls and maths or stats, just collaborative storytelling. If they really like tokens or things use those. Some people just aren’t into TTRPGs, which is okay. If you really don’t want to give up on the idea you may just have to adjust a bit for them.
Every group has its own dynamic and that’s not always a fit for each individual. Some people take role play *very* seriously, others goof around all the time, some people treat the game as a game & play to maximise chances of success, others see it as a simulation of ‘real life’ (albeit fantastical). Different strokes, different folks.
Love your videos but this especially helped me, because I am that PC that doesn't fit. My best friend is a killer GM and storyteller and I love playing games together. He has invited me to multiple campaigns with his group, but I always struggle to remember the rules and stay awake/engaged during sessions. I really like the other players but it's a big group and I struggle with the amount of time it takes us to make decisions and get through scenes. I struggle with the pace and often avoid talking so that things will move along. I thought I was brain dead in some way for that game's rules, though I play and GM other games just fine - now I sorta understand why. Though compatible socially, I wasn't compatible with some of them as a player and that left me bored and them burdened. I recently asked my friend to help my character exit the campaign and I feel much better about that decision now. A big thank you from this problem player for helping me understand compatibility better - my gaming future and my friend's group both owe you big!
I heard you're playing Masks of Nyarlathotep in How We Roll Podcast(noticed only at the end, when I heard the phrase "I'm Seth Skorkowsky"). I'm excited because I'm running the campaign myself.
It's the old story of three people looking at a cloud. One person sees an animal in the shape. One person sees the marvel of water floating in the sky. One person sees the sky and just keeps walking. None of them are wrong to think that way, however one trying to impose their way of thinking on another probably would cause problems.
Another difference that divides players and groups are prefered playstyles. Our group loves to roleplay a lot and games sometimes take an extra hour to finish because of character interactions and shenanigans. Other groups tend to focus just on the combat and magic item runs and just ignore the adventure hooks, story, traps and exploration. They just breeze through hardcovers in a few hours by just dropping players into the final encounter with the BBEG and have everyone roll initiative.
Sometimes you have players who like the roleplaying aspect, and then there are those who are more into the combat aspect. One good way to sate the bloodlust of a murderhobo (or anyone bored of just roleplaying) is to have a non-story related fight at the beginning, which only takes at most thirty minutes - bad dude and minions attack party in random location, and once the party kills the bad dude, minions flee - then back to the story. A useful trick to help teach new guys how to use classes they aren't familiar with, and gets folks excited.
Very insightful. I have been pondering on this subject for a little while.I have a pool of about 15 people that I like to game with. (friends, family and friends-of-friends) We are all spread across the country and have busy lives, so I count it as an accomplishment to rally a handful of them together to start a campaign. But often it seems like within 3-6 months the sessions fizzle out. I figure it is the game system or setting and 3-6 months later I try to rally another group together under the flag of a different campaign. More recently I have been thinking it has to do with personalities and expectations as well as what can even be reasonably accomplished. Your video helped put words to many of my musings. Thank you.
My girlfriend, who's sitting on her iPad just commented: "A lot of others should do the same" Thank you for an another excellent video, without hyperbole (other than as humour) and witout jugdement. "Some friends are just better to simple grab a beer with" -- as a friend of mine put it. What I thought was missing was temporal issues; and it's temporal fixes. i.e. The friend who has exams/projects at work/social or family commitments.... maybe another video? It's a subject that needs a delicate non-jugdemental hand. :wink:
I've played a ton of D&D, but I'm trying Cyberpunk 2020 for the first time soon. Your videos are really helpful, giving insight about different systems that can seem like brick walls at first. Gonna be relaying a lot of what you say to the rest of the team!
Good video. My first group definitely could have benefited from this. There was one too many "friend of a friend" in it which created some animosity at the table. It is also good to touch on when there is a power struggle at the table. It is fine to have multiple type-A people in a group but if they have different priorities and expectations then you might get issues. A friend was recently in a group where he was the DM. After session 1 another player started vocalizing his thoughts and tried to be group leader in order to make sure the campaign was being set up the right way. Everyone else was having fun though so this guy was booted soon enough.
Thanks for the videos. Your videos have brought back some good memories of playing years ago. You have inspired me to pick up some of the pdfs the drive through has on sale. Now to find some players.😁
This video speaks to me. I DM for my friends to hang out, but mostly to play the game. But some of my friends are more interested in playing on their phones and only showing up when it's their turns (and having me repeating everything I just said) than investing in the story, but everyone wants to be there, so it's impossible to ask someone not to come because we are all so close and there would be just so much drama kicking someone out
Glad my friend sent me the link here, I got a player that does not mesh, and will not be getting invited back to my campaign after either we finish the campaign or he tries undermining me again. For context on undermining he told a brand new player after 1 session, that he was not engaging in at all despite me trying to talk to him, that "oh this other DM that I've played with is so much better, and his games are so much more engaging." and "If the game doesn't improve I've got another game lined up." he said the second one without talking to me as the DM, despite me telling everyone after every session "If you have comments, questions, concerns, or just want to talk about what you want to see in the game, message me, I'm almost always free to talk."
I'm in highschool in a small town, so I can only really play with my friends who have no interest in RPG's. So I kinda have to play with people who I have conflicts with if I want to play.
I just experienced this in one of my games. Had a player with very different expectations than everyone else. He refused to understand why certain mechanics were the way they were, and insisted they get changed so it would "make sense" to him. He kept everything about his character secret from the party and actively distanced the character from any group discussions, then got upset that no one was trying to sus out his "secret backstory." When confronted with the idea that he make his character more approachable to the other players, he got upset, saying it wouldn't "be true" to the character, but blamed everyone else for not playing the little mystery game he invented for himself. Finally, he said that maybe his character wasn't a good fit for the party, and suggested that the OTHER PLAYERS make a character for him so that everyone can share in the blame when the character fails to connect with the party. At that point I had to tell the guy that the problem wasn't the character he made, it was him. I tried to be as polite as I could (given the circumstance), but he still accused me of chasing him off deliberately. I almost felt guilty because he was otherwise a good player, but I just knew there was nothing I could have done to make it work.
I tried to DM before and i lasted for about 3 months. Id only allow lvl 1 to 5 , and then you graduated to the higher ups if you wanted to continue on with your character to the next DM. All my characters where premade to save time ,and to let you see if that was the kind of character you prefer. New players can change their mind multiple times. So i try to keep up the pace so as to let the player experience winning as soon as possible. With easy to avoid obvious traps ,and as many alternate ways to win the scenario as possible. To get a feel for what the players preferences or changing preferences are.
Could of used this video about a year ago. My group died because of one players drama. This got me thinking and could of help us talk about things rather that the drama. But very useful for the future.
Good job Seth! Nice to see a video about a new point of view on an old problem. Here at the start of this our New Year of the double critical may the year treat you well.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Mamushi (Remix) [feat. TWICE] [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5c0_u9PsrsQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I keep forgetting Todd, Mike, and Dweebles aren't actually other people.
They aren't? :0
@@HlewagastizHoltijaz
Don't listen to him, of course they are different people. Can't you see they look different? A hat, a moustache, and a goatie. Seth don't have any of them. :P
Are they actually different people? How many actors are there?
@@brichouse2117 actors? wait, that isn't a real game? wtf
you prolly dont give a shit but does any of you know of a method to get back into an instagram account?
I was stupid forgot my password. I love any tips you can offer me!
Most underrated tabletop channel
Quite 🧐
FR
Underrated channel in general tbh, his skits are pretty entertaining.
Its because he talks about things besides 5e
Clearly. His advices are gold
So what about the turtle? Why did it have a hat? Tell Me!!!!!!
To keep its head warm? To cover its bald spot? Because its been mind-controlled by the Mad Hatter?
@@richmcgee434 Definitely mind control.
Was looking for this. Didn’t have to look far. :-)
Finally, Todd isn't the only bad guy! I felt bad for Todd.
Yeah it kinda bothers me that they keep him around but he always was a problem
As someone that is actually named Todd, I always feel for him. Lol. I keep him in my prayers lmao
Seth I LOVE this vids shirt!!! Where do you find your Uber cool Tee’s?
Seth actually had a skit about why Todd is always the bad guy in these videos. It's just because Todd sits across from him, so it works well with the camera angles.
@@TheLawliet10 well, but one time todd wasn't the bad guy and he switched places with that guy with the mustache (can't remember his name)
but it was in the "x awesome player traits" video :)
so todd wasn't the bad guy, but wasn't the good guy / awesome either *g
To be fair, no one was really being bad in this video. Mike was the one causing friction in the group, but he wasn't necessarily doing anything wrong or bad.
Funny how this sounds like good advice even in non-gaming groups... or even when dating.
Yeah, a lot of advice on how to be a good table top player doubles as advice on how to be a decent human being. Communicate your thoughts. Listen to the people around you. Be open to compromise. Understand that it's not always all about you. Be ready to commit some effort. Know that sometimes it doesn't work out without it being anyone's fault.
LOL - there are no useful rules when dating.
@@citycrusher9308 No there is one very very important one
Don't stick it in crazy
@@citycrusher9308 there's one
seek reciprocity
I'd also like to add, fucking shower
I was expecting a rehash of the old "Hack and Slash vs Story Driven vs Roleplayer" dichotomy. Or because of out of character stuff like political differences or bad past experiences with one another. I honestly have never heard someone bring this element up, and it clearly is an important one to consider. Nice job Seth.
Seth, I need closure, what happens with the turtle. Please, this is vital.
ITS BEEN FOUR YEARS
Soup?
"Don't you want to hear his story first?"
"Not really, no."
:D :D :D
Frankly, I don't see the issue with this. Assuming the guy plays well with the group during the game action, so what if he doesn't want to be involved with the idle chit chat? Given the arch-types presented here, I can see the disinterest.
@@brianjacob8728 It's basically saying that he doesn't really care about being friends with the other players outside of the game. That's fine if your group is 100% focused on the game, but it would kind of irk me personally. I wouldn't play with someone I couldn't have a beer with outside the game.
@@brianjacob8728 I think Matt Colville put it pretty well. If you're playing these types of games, you really are playing with "the group." You just happen to be playing that particular PnP or board game that week (or every week). If the GM doesn't feel like running the game, or isn't prepared, the group still gets together to play Talisman, or Dune, or Uno, or maybe a one-shot on a different (or the same!) system ran by someone else in the group, or whatever other examples Matt had. Because it's a group of people who are friends beyond just playing a particular PnP game, and that's the type of group that will actually stay together. It's not like work where coworkers may just be coworkers, etc.
While there are probably groups that *are* strictly focused on the game, I suspect that's pretty rare. Ultimately I suppose it depends. If the entire group is this sterile "only in it for the game" type of environment, and all those people enjoy that environment and are cool with it, then that's fine. But that's probably not why the majority of people are playing these types of games. I like how Seth put it: we're all friends but we are all here to play this particular game (or type of game) in a particular way. The game is (or may be) critical but so are the people playing it together. Anyways, just my two cents.
@@Illersvansen I mean, I understand that other ppl may not like it but that's how some ppl are, I for one play DND for the sake of playing DND and am not really interested in chit-chatting with the ppl otherwise, and that's fine, it's nothing personal or anything
I’m more of a gamer, I am there for the game. I personally know everyone at the table and they all know each other, but on Friday’s we come together for one reason: to play D&D. I put a lot of effort throughout my week to make my players a campaign worth playing, and if they want to hang out, they have the rest of the week to do it. Friday’s are D&D night, and no distraction that keeps coming up are welcome. Occasional laughs and side chats are good, but they need to remember why we are there
exactly.
Yeah, that’s how I lean as well. I think it’s why I’ve taken so well to playing online. I’m not sure I even can go back to playing in person.
@@--enyo-- In person was always hard for me as a DM. I find online, I have less social pressure and I find it easier to run my role as DM with my computer in front of me to look things up on the fly.
Unless we're under a special time crunch, I am happy to allow my players 20 minutes or so for BSing before we start rolling. However, once we started playing, latecomers are discouraged from taking time away from the game with social catchup
There's also a lot to be said here about personalities that don't work well together for D&D or Co-operative games in general. While our group hasn't started a game up yet, there is a friend of ours that my sister and I have already kind of decided to avoid inviting if we can. Not because we don't like him, or he's not fun to be around, but because nearly every Co-Op game we used to play together when we'd meet on the regular would end in disaster. He's just the sort of person that thinks nothing of being silly or trolling the group for their own enjoyment, whether or not people are getting frustrated by it.
We will still hang out and play Smash bros all the time though, just D&D isn't the best fit.
My brother to a T.
Yep, gaming priorities are huge. Years ago I ran a campaign with a close group of friends as the players. It was an "alt" gaming group; we all had been in a long-term campaign run by another friend, and when that friend wasn't available, we'd play my campaign. We had a great mix of socialization and game play, and few issues for a long time. The other GM friend's schedule changed, and he became available more, so I finally brought in him in - a very close and long-time friend. But his gaming goals were different - for the rest of us, it was all about, essentially, writing a story together: I created the world and the NPCs, and the players acted and interacted within it, and the story came about from this interplay. The story was the thing, in all its aspects - learning, exploring, fighting, etc. We all had fun. But this other GM friend had fun by WINNING. He is a very nice person in life, but in games, he must WIN. He is a rules lawyer, and a very sharp one. He would pick apart everything possible, to see how he could further his characters, looking for every advantage and loophole. His characters rapidly became more powerful than the rest of the party put together, and my work load as a GM doubled, tripled. What had been fun became work, as I had to constantly be on my toes and hammering down great depths of technical details so as to not be outmaneuvered by the rules lawyer, while everyone else just wanted to play the game. Even the other players became bothered by it, though most of them tried to laugh it off. Eventually we just stopped playing, because it wasn't fun anymore, it was a chore. We're all still friends, but I put so much into creating that world, and it all just... stopped. He just had fun in a different way than the rest of us - he's not a bad guy, his game-priorities were just too different.
We just had a lot of very stressful drama in our group that cumulated in someone choosing to leave (though I would've had to kick her out if she hadn't left voluntarily - she did/said some things that were really hurtful to me as the DM and to the rest of the group). I'm extremely grateful for this video because in hindsight this was 100% the issue.
We first started with only 3 players, and I used to get so frustrated because I'd spend hours preparing a session and we'd end up talking for way longer than we actually played - sometimes we wouldn't even play at all! Slowly more friends started to join the group, and the other girl who only wanted to socialize had to leave (for unrelated reasons). So now this one friend wanted to keep using our game time to socialize the way that we always had, meanwhile the rest of us are having a great time focusing on the game. It got to the point where we were all upset with her because she would arrive late, wasn't paying attention, etc. This made me sympathize with the fact that the entire mood of the table shifted dramatically around her. It used to be that she was having fun but I was unhappy, now I'm much happier but she wasn't.
Thanks for giving me a new perspective.
This has happened in almost every group I played. luckily we always cut out the fat, so to speak, and had some good games going. however I did meet people who had issues with either the game itself or with other people at the table, not related to the game. I have seen friendships end during game sessions, where the game wasn't at fault but some outside arguments that unfortunately came up. seen break ups between lovers etc. again after those issues everything became smooth sailing. rather have a small group that is on the same page it's better than having just a big group.
Oh man having people break up at the gaming table sounds like baaad time for all present lol
that wasn't even the worst instance. one time we played dungeons and dragons 3. 5 and we played in a campaign that went on already for a few months. now the back story is that one of the players was in a relationship with the DM which wasn't the issue at first. the problem came up down the road when said player started an affair with another player... of course this came out during a game session which ruined not only the trust between three people but also killed the campaign HARD and my half giant fighter was finally getting good. I just shook my head throughout the whole thing. it was so awkward and depressing. luckily my later groups were much better. my group now has like a rule were when we meet chitchat for about 30 to 40 minutes to get the socializing in then start to play for 2 hours followed by another break for like a few minutes to chitchat. it has been good. we are social animals but are also determined hobbyists so balance is the key here.
@@imperialtutor8687
Damn. This is why I wouldn't want to DM a mixed gender group. Either all guys or all girls. Best way to go.......sadly
@@citycrusher9308 Just find some mature people, not teens who hump everything in sight.
Or play online with people who only have pixelated genitals!
Trevor Cormier That’s absurd, are you DMing for children? How do these people handle every other circumstance where people need to collaborate or socialize in mixed gender groups?
The more of these videos Seth puts out the more I’m buying into the theory that he’s never actually had other players. He’s just been spending years with a fake mustache, fake chin beard, and a Ramones tank top and ran around his table like a madman!
That's what I might have to resort to if I want to use all these dice I have.
Seth is on the same level of eldritch insanity as Talesin Jaffe with his multiple personalities
sounds like you saw Todd's shirt lol
LMAO!!! That comment made me LOL!! Too funny!!
You must not have watched many videos. He has had some of his players on here before...one of them was the catalyst for the Scott Brown incident..
I had to get rid of 3 of my 5 players because they didn’t care about the game at all. Now the 2 players who remained and 1 new addition share the same priorities with me, and it’s better than ever
Thanks Seth, cuz of you I'm running my first Cyberpunk 2020 game this Sunday
¡Good luck and have fun! I had my first game ever playing Cyberpunk and it was so awesome, best game ever 10/10 would recommend. 👌
Tell us how it went my man. Always happy to hear if new players like the game
@@lucasaguirre3113 glad you enjoyed it. I've been wanting to run a game for ages but never had a group until recently. It's an absolute pleasure to play it
Cool! I can’t find anyone to play that with
@@Naa45702 i was in the same boat. I eventually drafted my dnd group to do a romp through it every year
Just went through this with my last group. We reached high levels and one of the players seemed to prefer a mid level grind type of game. Kind of bummed me out and discouraged me from throwing in all the prep work. Took a 4 month break and the gaming group has restructured itself without feelings getting hurt. All in all I’m just excited to run the game again.
I totally agree. My sweet spot is 60-70% "there to Game" and 30-40% "there for the people".
I'll refrain from my full rant but I have experienced everyone of those and much more (as I'm sure you have) including general assholery in my ~8 years of GMing. That said I think you covered it just about perfectly as usual. As I tell all my players: if you're not having fun, the worst thing you can do is keep playing for others' sake. Your not gonna hurt my feelings, just let me/us know and we can talk about it. Communication is key. Loved the video as always, keep up the great work, Seth!
Just catching up with Seth's videos after I found his channel a few weeks ago and I've also encountered all of his examples and more. I have been GMing for 36 years though, so had plenty of time to encounter these.
I even left a campaign myself (I was a player) because the investigation/science/problem solving part was well done but combat was throw 20+ dice and 'blam' enemies gone every time. So boring and very little risk to the players.
Player compatibility is something I think many people overlook. I have several good friends that I do not game with...and this has preserved our friendship.
I am in the lucky situation that I have a whole bunch of Groups to play with (I DM 4 of them)
And I agree, some players shouldn't play together xD
So...NOT having fun with friends has “preserved your friendships”?
@@Tony-dh7mz they have fun, just not playing tabletop games. Not a hard concept lol. They figured out who to play tapletop with and who not to and avoids drama and conflict.
@@TheCaptinhazmat
I get the that not everyone is not going to get RPG’s, it’s not for everyone (for instance, it’s more inclined towards artist/creative types, less so those that would enjoy watching/playing sports etc) but what kind of game are you playing if you have issues with fun? (drama? conflict? I’m assuming within context that’s outside the game?)
There shouldn’t be drama and conflict, it’s a game, (normally a cooperative game to boot)
@@Tony-dh7mz Well, we didn't have "fun" when gaming because we were not compatible, and if we had kept trying to do RPG's together I suspect we would no longer be friends. Instead, the friend in question, I see on board game nights, and we have a blast.
Love the content seth and happy new year hope you’re ready for the dark future 🤘
You want a dark future?
Damn democrats!!!
I'm getting close to getting my Cyberpunk RED starter!
@@danielramsey6141 Got mine already. Not enough gear and software. No XP and character development. But overall it is the only starter I bought as it has right set of dice.
Tony well we’re already in the year 2020 and much of cyberpunk 2020 has come true soooo yeah we are in the dark future
Daniel Ramsey do it it’s loads of fun
Oh man, I recently ran into the "we want different things" problem, and it was indeed an online game.
The GM was just super keen to hang out before or after a game and would sometimes cancel games last minute for whatever reason but say we could still hang out, but I don't think the group chemistry was there for that, even though he wanted us to be friends outside the game. It was kind of awkward but I didn't think it was a common thing, so thanks for making me feel better about it :)
Seth, you made this just at the right time for me. My old DnD group imploded after some drama (that I admittedly caused) and since then I've tried running with some other people, and now I understand why I have began to like the game less and less: They only care about socializing, not the game. I always blamed my world or stories to not be interesting enough or that I didn't give players enough to care about, but I think I have found the real issue. I was already thinking about not DMing for my group anymore, and I think that this just cements that I should not, as all of my players don't care about the game that much and just make stupid joke characters that infuriate me (and that I usually end up killing because they do dumb shit like escort the guards to the dead queen that they just killed. Yes that actually happened in one of my campaigns). So i just wanna say thanks for helping me keep my love for table tops by helping me identify why I'm not enjoying them anymore. Ive been in contact with some of my buddies that went off to college and are good players to see if we can get an online game started, so wish me luck
Yeah prepare for conflict if you have a table with a mix of casual gamers, especially ones who are casual about things like time or just trample on the GM's plans and don't take it seriously, and hardcore RPers. That's not going to be fun as both sets won't be getting their needs met. The group needs to have a reasonable set of like minded players.
Control issues are another example of conflict areas.
I think Seth might have a video on this, but I think this a common problem among GM's. At least the ones that just want to be writers. I have this problem alot, but have tried to temper it. Anyway, world builder/writer GM's, which it sounds like you might be, really care about whether the players are engaged in thier world. If they aren't it really ruins the writer GM's experience. Best thing to do is either realize we can't treat our games like novels or find a group that wants to tell a story with you. Apologies if I read the situation incorrectly though.
Daniel Pucher yeah ur right, defiantly a writer gm, but it’s mostly on my own time that I write stuff for the world. My (now old) group just didn’t even care about the story, much less anything in the world. The last campaign we ran was a pirate campaign where they tracked down treasure and accidentally awakened a Kraken. I loved the concept, but my players just didn’t care about the story, only about how funny their character could be. That was my issue
@@MrRandomstuff9 Yep, this is "casual gamer vs. roleplayer" at its finest. It's a total mismatch of group.
@@danielpucher3367 "I think Seth might have a video on this, but I think this a common problem among GM's. "
Sure, GMs put in a lot of work on their world and story, so at some point of course. But it can certainly go too far, especially for a GM who wants to be a novelist and expects players to follow their plot. Players almost never cooperate with that, some more than others. (IMO it's a real problem with many of the modern zero-to-hero adventure paths.)
I'm not a "frustrated novelist" type as I try to do things like sourcing the table and making use of PC backgrounds and such and have a looser, more improvisational style, but you're totally right about me wanting player engagement with the world.
This is a video everyone involved in tabletop gaming should be required to watch.
Very mature and realistic outlook.
Indeed 🧐
Man this video helped me a lot, now I understand why it took me so long to get a group going (spent 1 year looking for a group I like) and why now it's going so well (playing with the guys for 3 years).
I had never found before ppl that wanted the same experience as I, I like to play DND for DND sake, not to hang out with others, and I play to create powerfull characters that do cool stuff on a epic setting.
Untill I found 2 other guys and a DM that also wanted that I did not found a good group to play at.
I makes such a profound difference when you get to play with a group who have the same priorities as you. It took me far too long to figure that out. Glad you found a group you fit with. Hold on to them as long as you can, and have fun.
Oh the outro of Dweebles got me so good I haven't laughed like that in awhile lol! Fantastic video.
As someone who's been on the other side of "When I started my new campaign I just didn't invite them," That shit fucking sucks. It feels like a betrayal, especially since I was the original DM of that group, I taught everyone how to play, then I introduced and nurtured the new guy who wanted to run stuff and eventually fucking scooped my players. No one ever discussed this with me. I only found out because one of the players accidentally texted the group chat that had me in it asking if they were still having a session that day.
Communicate. TALK WITH PEOPLE. It might just be a game, but it's a game involving real life actual people.
He does say that it was something he didn’t handle the best, so I think Seth acknowledges this as well.
Sorry to hear that.
haha you got owned
communication is always best; we all need to learn this.
Maybe there was a good reason you weren't invited.
That's jacked up bro. Not cool at all. Feels bad man.
You are a wise and thoughtful man, Seth. This is great advice for gaming as well as for real life. All the best for 2020!
It’s worth to see all Seth’s videos just to see all the T-shirt’s he has in his wardrobe and pick some ideas lol
You are right about making blanket defences for people. Also I agree that sometimes the player is the one who needs to hold themselves accountable.
I only have 4 people in my group (that includes me). We swap playing Dnd and CoC each week. It’s a good change of pace for each week and I think we all have a good balance of taking the game seriously and being nonchalant. We’ve lost 2-3 others because they didn’t really care about playing or they had a bigger priority, but I honestly like having a small group of only three PCs.
BoSSman I’ve started swapping Pulp Cthulhu and Mutants and Masterminds. My players liked Call of Cthulhu but preferred the Pulp game as it was more violent and less investigation and easy death. M&M also gives me an extra week to prepare the Masks of Nyarlathotep game, as M&M is fairly easy to think up or adapt scenarios to fit, as its kind of an adventure if the week type setup.
Nick Manzo We’re actually about to end our CoC campaign and play Pulp. I think the players will enjoy it a lot more and I’m having a blast writing out the campaign.
Yours is far and away the best TTRPG channel I've seen. Thanks for the advice and keep up the good work!
But Seth, what happened with the Turtle with the Blue Beanie? LOLS. Great video, have a great 2020
Became the fourth ninja turtle
@@Tony-dh7mz - A blue beannie sounds like an Eric Cartman turtle.
@@Tony-dh7mz There are already 4 ninja turtles.
@@Squncoin
This is true, I meant fifth
@@Tony-dh7mz There is already a fifth. She is Yellow :P
Recommendation for casual groups: don't bring in a GM from outside. They'll spend a lot more time than you expect prepping the game, won't really be able to mesh with the side conversations, and will likely have a hard time BECOMING friends with the group from that side of the screen ('cause they've got a game crammed in their head at the time).
Great video Seth, your videos got me into Roleplaying, Cyberpunk, Robert E. Howard, and H.P. Lovecraft. Just bought Call of Cthulhu, and am eager to use your advise.
Most upsetting part of this video: I still want to know about that dang turtle!
And no Jack!
Look in the Comments. The answer seems to be 'Mind control' by the Mad Hatter.
I had to learn this lesson the hard way. My old group I'd been playing with for about two years let some new players in and the group quickly hit the fan on compatibility. We tried changing campaigns twice over five months but the whole thing ended up falling apart and I ended up wanting nothing to do with d&d for a year.
I recently had to come to the conclusion that my son and I just have different goals gaming. I'm about crafting a gritty story with the players where normal (ish) characters struggle against their challenges. He's a high-fantasy power gamer who likes to break games by creating these super-powerful synergies with character class abilities (D&D meets MTG kind of thing). As GM, I generally don't play that way and the game systems I use don't lend themselves to that style of play--which is part of the reason I choose them. We mutually don't find each other's preferred gaming style interesting.
But he's studying to be a lawyer and hopefully those skills will help his career... and my retirement. :)
The worst players I've had were the ones who would NEVER read any of the material, they just wanted the GM to explain everything, and the second ones were those who had an axe to grind with the GM and took it out passive-aggressively in-game.
It's extremely important to curate your players. For my current campaign I wrote out a campaign pitch detailing the type of campaign I wanted to run, then I sent it to people I knew I would enjoy playing with.
Our group desperately needed this video. Thanks Seth for tackling this important issue so well!
This was a good analysis of group dynamics w/some great solutions. Nice work. 👍🏻
Seth speaks Wisdom.
I like your channel - never a single boring episode :)
I have found that in many cases, these situations sort themselves out - the people who are showing up for different reasons than the rest of the group may end up with more excuses to not come until they eventually just leave all together. Obviously, this doesn't happen all the time, but in most of the cases where there has been out of place at the table, they just drifted away.
The more difficult issue is when you end up with groups with fundamentally different RPG philosophies. when you get one person who is really into tactical combat and the number crunch and another person who would prefer if the dice were never used, but both want to play and like the rest of the group, that can create problems.
That's where you ask the players what type of game they want to play and majority rules or do what I do and TELL the players what type of game you're going to run from day one and there's no confusion. This is especially important when first forming a group. All too often GM's just "take what they cant get" when it comes to players and then wonder why they can never keep a group going.
It is possible to have adventures balanced so that even the tactical and the no-dicer could get a share of their beloved fix. In this example investigative Mysteries with occasional Ambushes/Battles would be quite possible.
I was thinking of a very specific group this whole time I was listening to this. Great video
You have such charitable, good faith interpretations of people's motivations, I really love that about your perspectives. This is a great channel.
Thanks for the video Seth! I think of these difficulties a lot especially when I play in a game store setting. I can’t really put my thoughts into word (or I am just too lazy). I’m going back to lurking in your videos. Happy new year!
Itsa kitty! X3
I had a DM years ago who was in it to show everyone how clever he was. You had to play the game the way HE wanted it to go, and if you had the temerity to think of a solution to a problem that made him "look like a fool" (namely using an angle he didn't think of) you would be punished for it. I had to stop playing after a while, which kind of sucked, because it was the only in game in town for a long time...but I just couldn't enjoy it. At all.
I had a similar dm
Except he punished you for stepping out of the roll he put you in
Also he liked pitting players against each other because drama
Ugh. The “My precious scenario” problem. Leads to railroads and frustrated players every time. I personally love it when my players do the unexpected in my game. It leads to epic situations and stories!! Plus it pushes me to think outside my box taking the broken campaign in another direction. The players don’t know they broke my game unless I tell them...and I don’t. At the session end they praise me for an amazing, epic game that I certainly didn’t plan, but hodge-podged together on the fly with a couple story seeds I’d jotted down long ago. They just think I’m genius when really I’m scrambling to keep a broken campaign going in a different direction. 🤣🤪🤯 Good times!!!
@@rpeterson9182 I had success even in the old days with my Old School Prussian Railroad, because I did build in powerful descriptions, action delivered dramatically, so they all went along. But more ideally, you can write an adventure more as a series of locations, give the players more freedom to cover each location (or a specific task or NPC) in any order. If they fail to get an important clue or a piece of gear, that is where you can improvise them discovering it another way. At the very least, the Town Drunk staggers over and blurts out this thing he's noticed! Then, armed with hopefully enough gear, you lead the players to the final show-down.
But what if things don't work out as in your adventure? What if they have a run of bad luck and actually fail a scene in your game? Build in alternatives, "What if they fail?" notes, and give them a safe place to lick their wounds before taking up the thread of the adventure again. Think always of the Majority/Most Likely Consequence and the Minority/Less Likely Consequence at each step of your writing.
Dracopol I do plan. Hours of exhaustive planning thinking up every possible scenario. But my players always manage to surprise me with something every session. Not necessarily something game breaking every session, but surprises nonetheless. I don’t mean to complain though. The group stories we create playing together are always much better than I could come up with on my own. 😉
@@rpeterson9182 Yes, it is fluid storytelling. But don't let them forget it is your show!
I can definitely see that this was a problem with my previous group after most of it changed. It switched from a mostly balanced to one that was all social. It wouldn't have been that much of a problem but I didn't particularly like most of the them and didn't even talk to any of them outside the game. I definitely felt I was wasting my time especially when the DM prioritized his girlfriend and her friends that made up the new group.
@Joe Blow yeah but I'm doing better now since I made my own game group with me as the DM.
This video needs to be posted and referred to often. This is by far the most often circumstance that I’ve found over 30 years of gaming. Not bad behavior outright - just differing objectives for their respective free time. The big question for me is how to communicate and quickly find whether the “philosophies” are aligned.
Always refreshing to experience your objective and grounded observations, Seth! Guid in ya.🙏
This video is just so relevant. Your closing statements really strike a chord with my experience playing table top games.
Great video Seth, really gave me a lot to think about. You put out good content man, never change.
Awesome, video! I have never been able to put it so well. I see this problem so often and get frustrated by it. Now I can just point people to your video!
I don't even play TableTop RPGs but I have been binging your videos these past few weeks lol.
Seth, these videos are so great! Game companies should put a note about your RUclips channel inside all their books. but I'm getting a little freaked out because the more I watch the harder it is for me to not think of your players as separate people. Characterizations are so distinct that it's really sometimes difficult to see that you're the one playing them. Amazing!
Nice shirt! I love how Picard pilots the millennium falcon
Thanks for this video. "The Five Geek Social Fallacies" was a relevant read for me. While I'm not part of a TTRPG group right now, the lessons and advice here are relevant across all types of social interaction. It helped me realize some things about the group I play Magic: The Gathering with, Geek Social Fallacy #1 in particular.
Once again Mr. Skorkowski, an awesome video. At 3:48, you mention "problem solving" as one of the elements of the game, which is definitely one of my top priorities, but I would qualify and say "team problem solving" in which the players work together to come up with a strategy, plan or solution via talking at the table. The last group that I was in were all nice people that I enjoyed sitting with so the social aspect was awesome, but their game-related priorities were very different than mine. Here are some of the differences I noted:
-- Some of the players were more interested in strict roleplaying, based upon the character's initial set of flaws, which led to some humorous moments, but also some that frustrated me. EXAMPLE 1 -- The group makes the plan, but when we go to execute the player with the character who "always forgets the plan" automatically did something else, thus destroying all the work we just did. I asked him, please, at least randomize the bullshit that YOU are having your character do -- roll to see if they deviate from the plan or follow it, which was actually much more fun than just always ruin the plan. EXAMPLE 2 -- Same player has another character in another campaign that is a businessman, so every session he would get his player into business negotiations with NPCs that eat up about 20 mins to an 1 hour of real time while the other people just sit around waiting. He was overemphasize his character's private goals instead of the common goals of all of the members of the party, and as a result he dominated the table. When I asked him not to do that, he responded by saying very little which is a shame because he is a funny guy , is well-versed in rules (almost in a power gamey way, but not as annoying) and very skilled at solving problems; plus he is a good friend of mine.
-- Some of the players were straight up solo power gamers rather than team players. These players did not want to discuss how the party could work together to use each of their strengths to cover the other's weaknesses. EXAMPLE 1 - One of them would always play some sort of 5e "Magic User" variant (Sorcerer, Wizard, etc.) and after he did a lot of damage would say , "My character was the MVP in that fight!" as if that was what was important. Great guy and I like him as a person, but too many video games maybe? O_o EXAMPLE 2 - A new guy came to our group, a power gamer who wanted to be able to do everything as multi-classer and make the party deviate from the common goal to pursue gaining new items (e.g., "I have to get plate mail!"). This guy drove me to quit the group when I as a Rogue wanted to look for traps before stepping on a land mine while his character was on the other side of the room doing something else. The DM waived me off from my "meanwhile" and let his character fly back over and fire an arrow safely from above (potentially detonating a bomb next to my character and some others). At that point after 2 1/2 years playing with them, I calmly said "I guess I am not needed here", picked up my mini and dice, and walked away.
In short, problem solving can be done by one player (potentially using only one character, esp. with 5e superheroes), or it can be done by the entire table in a brainstorming session and select the best tools (i.e., the combination of characters that, based on their collective abilities, have the best chance of success). When everyone gets to contribute and stays on track with the common goals of ALL party members, it is much more fun to me. Otherwise, power-gamer Boromir with goals that don't match those of the others, you're out of the fellowship.
100% Spot on. Good stuff! Also...8 people didn't want to hear the story.
Always love seeing The Gang! Makes me laugh every time!!😆🤣
I've actually been struggling with this in two of my tabletop games. One I run and one I play in. The one I run I have a person who never actively joins in is always on a device. The one I play in just recently changed genres and I am not a fan of the new genre... at all. I really need to bite the bullet and talk to both groups about stuff. Make sure everyone is on the same page. Thanks Seth. This video really helped me.
📵
In our Adventurers League community our local group tries to have a healthy balance of both the social and gaming aspect of D&D. If there is a player having problems, slow, or is the one causing the problem itself, both the DM and other players help to solve the problem. Our group are more into roleplay and we once had a member who was both a problem player and DM. (he railroads, won't let the players roleplay, is on his phone browsing Facebook while he is in the middle of a game as the DM, etc) The admins brought it to his attention and tried to give him pointers and suggestions on how to improve but despite eveyone's efforts he still wasn't willing to change so we made it known that we won't join his table anymore.
Really insightful video. I really liked the emphasis on the idea that sometimes it's nobody's fault.
Our group just shed a "player who was: Always on the phone, playing games on their laptop (we have laptops at the table, so...), didn't try to learn the rules or their skills or their spells, showed up when sick (sharing the viruses... yay.), never really paid attention to the gameplay, and had recently been stopped at cheating their dice rolls. - My players and I unanimously voted them out.
There's one of those at my LGS. The problem is she's my friend's girlfriend. He's great. She's less than great.
One of my first groups I joined in Los Angeles, We had 4 different conflicting characters and The DM adjusted by letting us split up the two groups that had to work together to stop their shared enemy. he even let some pvp moments as long as no killing or the campaign would end with the world (dm made an in game reason we needed to stay alive). Probably had 4 sessions of trouble as we were learning how to work it. after that it became some of the best rp I've ever been in. out of the game civil...My character Lauranthaine was in an Elvish mob who ended up Combining with the Chief Of the Guard rangers and Pirate King (the other player fell off)
In my group we have a rule
Any PVP is allowe IF the following conditions are met:
Both players must talk it out and agree how the PVP should happen
and
The GM (me) then has to accept it.
@@natanoj16 you know never have I seen a Dm rise to these occasions. it turned into such a drama within a drama filled with sending secret messages to the dm etc...I had to quickly rp and think subterfuge and wow, its so hard to replicate though
Two of my four are like this. They have different expectations.
Seth, you seem like a good guy. I enjoy watching and listening to your videos.
I really enjoy your rpg philosophy! Happy New Year!
I've been DMing for over twenty years and having this issue right now. About to start a new game and really needed this pep talk. Thanks
It's interesting to see how this evolves over time! Since I last watched the video I've joined two new groups, one online and one local. In both cases it was an ad/post that got the group together. So with these groups I just wanted a game and it was understood that they were strangers. But over the course of playing with them for a while and getting to know them, the social element of looking forward to getting together becomes a factor. When I was young, it happened to be that my best friends were also into gaming and we had no real-world responsibilities so the game was something we organized our lives around.
Glad I came across this video. We've moved from 5e to a more OSR type fantasy game. One player loves it, the other player hates his character (he rolled low), and the min-maxer hates that he hasn't figured out how to break the game by the time he's reached second level. I've been blaming myself and I'm unable to find a common ground to make everyone happy and enjoy what they're doing.
Thanks man! I needed this video. It explains well some issues that I'm having with my current group.
Thanks for the insight! I've been trying to game with my family for the past two months, including my daughter's boyfriend. Sadly, the two girls are just silly, my wife is the one who can't seem to get past the rules (though she's getting better), and the boyfriend is really into the gaming aspect. I want to play so badly and to give the girls the lessons that games like this instill in them, I'm just losing my mind because I feel like I'm herding cats!
There comes a moment when you realize you need to wait for the horse to be thirsty.
Sorry to say, but those things are out of your control and probably won't change for the better. Similar situation that I was in, and we quit playing about a year and a half ago. It just didn't work for everyone and the problems couldn't be resolved.
Good luck with your attempt.
What game are you playing? If it’s D&D or Call of Cthulhu or something I can see how people might not be immediately able to get into it, remember rules if it’s not their top priority etc.
One thing I’ve learnt is that anything in life - from a game to basic public health recommendations- you just can’t make people care about if they don’t want to.
So an idea might be try something very rules-lite to start. Play a Powered by the Apocalypse game where everyone is a cat. Play some home brew where there’s few to no dice rolls and maths or stats, just collaborative storytelling. If they really like tokens or things use those.
Some people just aren’t into TTRPGs, which is okay. If you really don’t want to give up on the idea you may just have to adjust a bit for them.
Love your shirt - it reminds me of my "OMG It's R2-D2! I loved him in Star Trek!" shirt (the one with a picture of a Dalek on it...)
I NEED that shirt. Lol
Every group has its own dynamic and that’s not always a fit for each individual. Some people take role play *very* seriously, others goof around all the time, some people treat the game as a game & play to maximise chances of success, others see it as a simulation of ‘real life’ (albeit fantastical). Different strokes, different folks.
2020 - The year of hindsight.
2020, i want my crystalline cyberarm.
Trump 2020!
no... the year that really tries to kill us!
@@Tony-dh7mz that aged poorly
@@DatBrasss
Hey idiot, the fights not over yet, Look up Biden voter fraud
Love your videos but this especially helped me, because I am that PC that doesn't fit.
My best friend is a killer GM and storyteller and I love playing games together. He has invited me to multiple campaigns with his group, but I always struggle to remember the rules and stay awake/engaged during sessions. I really like the other players but it's a big group and I struggle with the amount of time it takes us to make decisions and get through scenes. I struggle with the pace and often avoid talking so that things will move along. I thought I was brain dead in some way for that game's rules, though I play and GM other games just fine - now I sorta understand why. Though compatible socially, I wasn't compatible with some of them as a player and that left me bored and them burdened.
I recently asked my friend to help my character exit the campaign and I feel much better about that decision now. A big thank you from this problem player for helping me understand compatibility better - my gaming future and my friend's group both owe you big!
I heard you're playing Masks of Nyarlathotep in How We Roll Podcast(noticed only at the end, when I heard the phrase "I'm Seth Skorkowsky"). I'm excited because I'm running the campaign myself.
It's the old story of three people looking at a cloud. One person sees an animal in the shape. One person sees the marvel of water floating in the sky. One person sees the sky and just keeps walking. None of them are wrong to think that way, however one trying to impose their way of thinking on another probably would cause problems.
You start from a point they can all agree on, “it’s water vapour right?” Build from there
Another difference that divides players and groups are prefered playstyles. Our group loves to roleplay a lot and games sometimes take an extra hour to finish because of character interactions and shenanigans. Other groups tend to focus just on the combat and magic item runs and just ignore the adventure hooks, story, traps and exploration. They just breeze through hardcovers in a few hours by just dropping players into the final encounter with the BBEG and have everyone roll initiative.
Sometimes you have players who like the roleplaying aspect, and then there are those who are more into the combat aspect. One good way to sate the bloodlust of a murderhobo (or anyone bored of just roleplaying) is to have a non-story related fight at the beginning, which only takes at most thirty minutes - bad dude and minions attack party in random location, and once the party kills the bad dude, minions flee - then back to the story. A useful trick to help teach new guys how to use classes they aren't familiar with, and gets folks excited.
I often do the same thing. Kind of like the opening action sequence in a classic James Bond movie
@@johnstovall7503 random bandits, goblin pack, or other troublemakers. Just cannon fodder.
Very insightful. I have been pondering on this subject for a little while.I have a pool of about 15 people that I like to game with. (friends, family and friends-of-friends) We are all spread across the country and have busy lives, so I count it as an accomplishment to rally a handful of them together to start a campaign. But often it seems like within 3-6 months the sessions fizzle out. I figure it is the game system or setting and 3-6 months later I try to rally another group together under the flag of a different campaign.
More recently I have been thinking it has to do with personalities and expectations as well as what can even be reasonably accomplished.
Your video helped put words to many of my musings. Thank you.
My girlfriend, who's sitting on her iPad just commented: "A lot of others should do the same"
Thank you for an another excellent video, without hyperbole (other than as humour) and witout jugdement. "Some friends are just better to simple grab a beer with" -- as a friend of mine put it.
What I thought was missing was temporal issues; and it's temporal fixes. i.e. The friend who has exams/projects at work/social or family commitments.... maybe another video? It's a subject that needs a delicate non-jugdemental hand. :wink:
This video appeared like from Heaven just as we were having a talk on a forum about a group with these types of problem. Magic!
Love the shirt Seth. Happy New Year
I've played a ton of D&D, but I'm trying Cyberpunk 2020 for the first time soon. Your videos are really helpful, giving insight about different systems that can seem like brick walls at first. Gonna be relaying a lot of what you say to the rest of the team!
Good video. My first group definitely could have benefited from this. There was one too many "friend of a friend" in it which created some animosity at the table.
It is also good to touch on when there is a power struggle at the table. It is fine to have multiple type-A people in a group but if they have different priorities and expectations then you might get issues. A friend was recently in a group where he was the DM. After session 1 another player started vocalizing his thoughts and tried to be group leader in order to make sure the campaign was being set up the right way. Everyone else was having fun though so this guy was booted soon enough.
Good talk about a tough subject. You have great, insightful videos.
Thanks for the videos. Your videos have brought back some good memories of playing years ago. You have inspired me to pick up some of the pdfs the drive through has on sale.
Now to find some players.😁
This video speaks to me. I DM for my friends to hang out, but mostly to play the game. But some of my friends are more interested in playing on their phones and only showing up when it's their turns (and having me repeating everything I just said) than investing in the story, but everyone wants to be there, so it's impossible to ask someone not to come because we are all so close and there would be just so much drama kicking someone out
Glad my friend sent me the link here, I got a player that does not mesh, and will not be getting invited back to my campaign after either we finish the campaign or he tries undermining me again. For context on undermining he told a brand new player after 1 session, that he was not engaging in at all despite me trying to talk to him, that "oh this other DM that I've played with is so much better, and his games are so much more engaging." and "If the game doesn't improve I've got another game lined up." he said the second one without talking to me as the DM, despite me telling everyone after every session "If you have comments, questions, concerns, or just want to talk about what you want to see in the game, message me, I'm almost always free to talk."
I'm in highschool in a small town, so I can only really play with my friends who have no interest in RPG's. So I kinda have to play with people who I have conflicts with if I want to play.
I just experienced this in one of my games. Had a player with very different expectations than everyone else. He refused to understand why certain mechanics were the way they were, and insisted they get changed so it would "make sense" to him. He kept everything about his character secret from the party and actively distanced the character from any group discussions, then got upset that no one was trying to sus out his "secret backstory." When confronted with the idea that he make his character more approachable to the other players, he got upset, saying it wouldn't "be true" to the character, but blamed everyone else for not playing the little mystery game he invented for himself. Finally, he said that maybe his character wasn't a good fit for the party, and suggested that the OTHER PLAYERS make a character for him so that everyone can share in the blame when the character fails to connect with the party.
At that point I had to tell the guy that the problem wasn't the character he made, it was him. I tried to be as polite as I could (given the circumstance), but he still accused me of chasing him off deliberately. I almost felt guilty because he was otherwise a good player, but I just knew there was nothing I could have done to make it work.
This is a great video. I've seen many on this subject but I think this hits all the buttons
Your content has made me a better gamer. Thanks, and keep it up!
I tried to DM before and i lasted for about 3 months. Id only allow lvl 1 to 5 , and then you graduated to the higher ups if you wanted to continue on with your character to the next DM. All my characters where premade to save time ,and to let you see if that was the kind of character you prefer. New players can change their mind multiple times. So i try to keep up the pace so as to let the player experience winning as soon as possible. With easy to avoid obvious traps ,and as many alternate ways to win the scenario as possible. To get a feel for what the players preferences or changing preferences are.
Could of used this video about a year ago. My group died because of one players drama. This got me thinking and could of help us talk about things rather that the drama. But very useful for the future.
Good job Seth! Nice to see a video about a new point of view on an old problem. Here at the start of this our New Year of the double critical may the year treat you well.