I am increasingly convinced that Seth doesn't actually have a gaming group and that his players are just him in various wigs putting on increasingly absurd voices, which of course makes all the PCs GMPCs.
@@clukskin His latest video was all about one of his players taking over as GM for his other personas, which would make him a GMPCGM for the other GMPCs' GMPCCs, right? :)
I hope you're proud of Jack 'The NPC' Malone, he's come a long way from having his camera in the pawnshop and having a drinking problem in 1920, to being the main star of your module/system/campaign reviews and GM discussions, to working for the Bureau of Investigation in 1924 as a senior agent in your first published scenario. May he be a good influence to us all for a long time.
"Ah'm questionin' th' validity of his choice..." :D The cutaways on this channel are often comedy gold, and yet reinforce the point of the video so well. How to stop an NPC Leader taking the spotlight away from the PCs. Ripley : How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant? Lieutenant Gorman : Thirty eight... simulated. Private Vasquez : How many *combat* drops? Lieutenant Gorman : Uh, two. Including this one. Private Drake : Sheet. Private Hudson : Oh, man...
Regarding the "asking NPC for guidance/support," it's not always a coy move. I have a couple rather passive/timid players, who will pretty much always defer to a seemingly knowledgeable NPC in any context. And while it's fine to get input from an NPC to inform a player decision, they shouldn't be getting a decision directly from an NPC. I had an NPC (the paladin's quasi-"horse", a summoned fae who took many forms and claimed to know everything) who was partially there to make the summoned mount more interesting and partially as a way to provide some setting and world info on demand. The paladin, one of the more passive players, had a tendency to ask the horse way more than needed. The more she pushed the horse, though, the more vague and abstract the horse got. I had a New Age Gibberish generator on tap to salt the horse's dialogue with more and more heavily once things got past the basic setting info I wanted to provide. Asking "what should we do" and getting "to truly evolve, we must release the self-actualization of the past self" quickly leads to people not asking the horse too many questions.
Two years on, so pardon if I disturb, but I do hope that you managed to include on situation bizarre enough for the horse to go "...I don't fricking know."
Hey Seth, I don't know if you remember me commenting about using Jack Mallone the NPC as a tutorial that will help my players on my first time running CoC the haunting and even just GMing in general. It went fantastic bro! They loved Jack and I accidentally gave them a plot hook because they didn't find the church of contemplation. They rolled a spot hidden when they visited the guy in the sanitarium and said the Bible he was reading out of had that eye symbol on it, and when they talked to the wife, she said they had a Catholic priest of a long forgotten sect come bless their house. Unknowingly increasing Mr. corbits power. Haha it's great man your videos have helped A LOT and it was a great break from DnD and Cyberpunk
@@skirk248 if you have the right group it's so fun. I would rip little bits of paper off my notebook and write things like "you are fine" or "where are they" or stuff like "I need help" and that throws them off. One of my players actually used what I wrote on one of them while talking to a NPC and I gave them extra information because of it. Also when they're getting just junk spooky shit, when you give someone a note with pertinent information no one will be the wiser
I used Jack for the haunting and was very careful that he didn’t ever take the lead or succeed for the players. He was the partner and cofounder of a player’s private investigation agency (which was 2 employees big lol). Anyway, the running joke was that until the Haunting nearly all their clients were people who thought their spouses were cheating on them. So they go to a sandwich shop for lunch and through some improvised background the player and Jack actually gets a discount since they found out that Galvani, the owner of the restaurant, had a cheating wife. When they were finishing up I had Jack lean in and mutter, “Hey, last one out’s fuckin’ Galvani’s wife!” and Galvani succeeded on a listen check. That was comedy gold and we’ve been joking about it since.
19:10 "The gamemaster knows what's behind the door." Me: looking at my _Random 'What's Behind the Door' Table,_ "I know what _might_ be behind the door."
"He might have a mundane item on him that we forgot to put on our character sheet." Never happens to me. Mainly because most of the games I've played usually have the GM give is a liberal amount of starting gold to buy weapons and armor. Which of course means I buy a single dagger, one spell book, 10 animal traps, 30 glass vials, 8 chickens, two goats, 500 feet of hemp rope, a ladder, and like 30lbs of salt.
Thanks for this video Seth, I've been running a Dark Heresy 2E campaign and I have brand new players. They've been kind of "Go straight for the mansion" despite me putting information in the world or hints to other things, and I realize now I need to have a NPC that shows them they can do things like investigate, talk their way in or out of places, and do research. I made this mistake because the last time I ran a DH2E game it was with Vets, who knew pretty much everything.
@@handlebarfox2366 oh man i still play that vid. Not gonna lie i did this in shadowrun after watching this my players where like that is even happening. Lol. Oh man so good.
You are 100% correct about the GMPCs. My wife and I were playing with a new (to us) group that was playing a V&V campaign which met every Monday evening. That was the first time we'd ever played V&V. Our characters were brought in as level 1 while the other PCs were at least level 3 (& from a previous, regular campaign). The GM introduced a GMPC right after out characters were getting to meet one another. Like any good mentor he gave us our marching orders, warnings, and left. There were shenanigans that had both my wife and myself on edge and irritated with the group (as a whole) & the GM (in particular). He was trying, but he was also trying our patience with how much he appeared to want us to play roles in the story he'd written (did I mention that he'd actually created my wife's backstory, but promptly forgot it and never bothered to remember or store it?). Unfortunately when time came to fight the BBG, the GM kept trying to railroad my wife's character into doing what he wanted her to do (not what she kept trying to do). The session ended with his GMPC coming out of a "necklace" that had magically placed itself on her (his description) to defeat the BBG, who only had a few HP left before we could have taken care of him ourselves. It got worse. When my wife's character called the GMPC out of his deus ex machina move and the crap he had been pulling (which included railroading her character, bullying her into "just going with it," & not understanding how her character's morals/motivations would've played out), the GM got mad at her for argued with him (he never understood that her character was trying to save her party members & that she would have sacrificed herself in order to give them more time to defeat the BBG) & he ended up triggering her PTSD. After the game was over, she tried to explain her side, that he had triggered her PTSD, that she had been trying to roleplay (but the GM & the GM's character hadn't let her do anything), that her character was trying to lure the BBG away from the vulnerable party members, etc. he didn't believe he, continued the argument from during the game, and argued that her character wouldn't have acted that way. What was even worse was he actually in game punished both of our characters. Over the next few months we tried to go back to the game, and the GM eventually "apologized" (read this as he said he understood, but ended up retconning so often every time he tried to restart the game that I think he lost track of why our characters were being punished, so he tried to convince us that the punishments were somehow "beneficial") & we cycled through a few different settings before the group disbanded. We heard he was GM/DMing again about a year later, but we had no interest in every being in another game with him. He is a nice guy and may have a couple decades of experience with RPGs, but he sucks/sucked as a DM/GM!
I rarely (but certainly some doozies when I do!) learn anything from Seth's videos, but I still love watching them for the same reason people like eating Mac & Cheese. Comfort food. THANK YOU SETH!
I literally took a break from writing an adventure with an NPC companion, the first time I've ever included one, and this video pops up. Thanks, Seth. You're a legend!
First I gotta say, I freaking love Seth's D&D book collection in the background. I've been playing D&D I think a little longer than Seth has (I got started in 1988 with the Classic Basic D&D Red Box Edition before moving on to AD&D and beyond) and I have a lot of those same books. I'm a collector and NEVER throw out any D&D gaming materials (you never know when they might come in handy). I could recognize several 1st Edition AD&D books, 2nd Edition AD&D books, the 2nd Edition (Class Name) Handbooks, etc. Amazing set up Seth, and I love it. Second, I want to touch on DMPCs. While I agree that they often don't work, if the DM is disciplined enough they CAN work. This is very rare, for much like when active pro wrestlers are also a promotion's booker there's always that temptation to make themselves the star of the show, but if they can keep a leash on their own desires and just let the players take the lead, it CAN work. First, the character should be one that's really only used for extra muscle. It can be a fighter with low to average INT & WIS scores, so if asked a question the DM can let the dice make the decisions for him allowing himself an out from metagaming. Or it can be a sorcerer, again with low to average INT & WIS scores, whose spell selection is more combat focused rather than not (so few if any Open Lock or Detect Lie spells and more Mage Armor and Fireball spells). So they're basically an important tag along NPC that's there to help, but stays in the back and doesn't hog the spotlight. These characters are useful if the group wants to try a rotating DM system, where the players all take turns as DM in order to prevent DM burnout, but don't want to be switching systems/campaigns/games/characters every time. I mean players put a lot of time and effort into their characters. They come up with interesting back stories for them and life quests that they want to see utilized. They want to be able to continue to develop these characters and having to start over from scratch every few weeks is incredibly irritating and frustrating. By having a rotating DM system in an agreed on campaign setting, and by the DM having a DMPC, this allows (in theory) for the DM to switch from DM to player and back again without having to try to come up with a reason why his character is leaving and rejoining the party every time. And it also allows his character to be roughly the same level as the party consistently, as the character won't be sitting out several adventures between its player being a player and being a DM. I mean, imagine being a player in this type of system. You've worked your character up to 5th level. You have a great idea for an adventure. You take over as DM, maintaining the same campaign and characters. You put everyone else through a tough adventure and they've all managed to level up to 10th. Now a new DM takes over and your character rejoins the group, but is now 5 levels behind everyone else because he sat out the last adventure. Of course this example is fairly extreme, but you get the idea. So again, it takes a LOT of mental discipline to use DMPCs wisely, but it CAN be done.
Currently running Tomb of Annihilation again, my players ran into a sneak thief who stole some gold from them, and, while trying to save an NPCs loved one, discovered the same kid had stolen a massive jewel that the guy they were rescuing had been accused of taking. Upon capturing the kid, they pled for his life, and that he be assigned to them to learn a trade. Hopefully, I can make this kid less annoying than Short Round. Also, Mister Skorkowsky, you forgot Raiders of the Lost Ark. Indiana’s guide tried to steal the idol and forced Indi to make some skill rolls to survive. Wildcard!!!!
The hardest thing I have with NPC's is remembering They have they're own agency and accords. NPC's are great at making your world more dynamic and living but I have a hard time remembering to make NPC's have lives and move around. I make my NPC's like MMORPG NPC's! They just stay in their little area! Well for D&D anyway. In Call of Cthulhu my NPC's are just as living as the PC's. Idk why I can't translate that from one game to another:/ lol
Usually when it comes to splitting XP and treasure with long-term NPCs, we just say that the loot the GM presents is what the PCs get to split, and the NPC ally is getting phantom XP/treasure that was "always there" but is simply never mentioned. That way they can have their NPC friend along (if they want to) without worrying about having to make un-fun decisions based around treasure and experience points.
Imperatrix i like how the old dnd modules did it where followers would have different terms for their employment, a wizard may ask for any scrolls and 10% of the gold, or a fighter might ask just for 25% of the money. Just take the agreed share out of any piles of loot found before telling them what they receive, assuming the PCs dont try to hide items from their hirelings
@@piemaniac9410 Typically the NPCs in our games that come along with the PCs are either close friends with the characters or are playing classes used to fill holes in the party composition; it's extremely rare to hire what might be considered a "mercenary". For example, in our Ravenloft game, Ismark (also Ireena, mostly) has been traveling with us basically for the entire campaign because he hates Strahd as much (probably more, tbh) than we do. In a previous game, the party had a cleric NPC friend who was traveling with them out of concern for their safety (and because the party otherwise had zero healing ability). Given that, I prefer to not bother with penalizing them at all (hence, "there was always some extra loot there that they took, don't worry about it"). The NPC is there to make the game more fun, and having to make a choice between taking your friend and getting less of a reward or leaving them behind just to get extra stuff isn't really a fun choice to make on a purely out of character level. Ravenloft just wouldn't have been the same without Ismark and Ireena there to be part of the struggle, and saying "well...you CAN do that, but have a penalty" just doesn't seem like a great thing to do. Loot in our games is also by definition honest. No one can steal loot and any loot goes on to a party loot sheet that can be seen at any time by anyone who wants to. Stealing party loot is largely just an irritating, petty act and we've decided that we don't want it to be a part of our experience.
My absolute favorite npc companion I've ever run was when one of my players called me late one night saying: "I think my character has a son." That kid was smart, studious, polite, and a decent shot. I adored playing him, and I'm kinda bummed out that that game closed out.
This was an excellent video! A lot of great advice for running NPCs. Both my kids have started running D&D for their friends, and I'm going to push them this way. My youngest already watches your videos.
Having the mentor character watch the pcs fight from a distance with his note pad out and saying, "interesting" every couple rounds... performance review.
I added a character based on Dandelion from the Witcher books for my players. My players are by now after one session used to explaining that this is definetly Not the bard that had an affair with X woman where X women is usually married to Y influential or nearby Male/ female .
After my last session I realized I'm gonna have to have an NPC companion stay with the group for much longer than expected, despite me not wanting it. This video arrived just in time!
I usually run a GMPC because of how small my game group is (4 of us total, typically only three at the table at any given time),pretty much been this way since I started playing in the late 90's/early 00's, been actively trying to pare back their overall effect on the story in recent campaigns, especially since my players have just started collecting NPC's as a campaign goes on.
@@harmonlanager2670 I think that's the good way to do it. Make sure that the PCs aren't outshone by NPCs in the areas the PCs choose to focus on. Support characters are good examples of this but it can even work with a fighter or damage dealer if the PCs are still the stars.
It’s very hard to turn the players companions against them, with how very protective and loving the players are to their new companions. They would be hippys from the 70s, if they could time travel, that’s how loving they are to them, very appreciative for the followers.
I used to GM a lot and your videos are a delightful mixture of things I used to do, things I never even thought of, and things I really shouldn't have done. Also seriously making me want to do GM again.
My party played truth or dare one night, and one of us was dared to try to seduce a goblin later on. Well, he somehow succeeded and we had Camper the Hobgoblin join us for the main dungeon crawl as his boyfriend. Camper was a real MVP, taking down undead to defend his casual boyfriend. Him leaving the party in the end was bittersweet, but we no longer need training wheels and the plot moved on.
Jack acompanied my characters to The Corbit House too, ended up thrown from the bedroom window, going insane in the basement and actually managing to get out of the adventure without actually beleiving in the supernatural.
One of my favorite games involved a long-running NPC as part of our crew (I was a player). After 6 sessions, the team started relying on the NPC or using them for decisions or "scouting." Suddenly, the NPC had a "lucky coin" he would flip on any decision (an actual coin was used) and we usually ended up taking the harder route, and would always fail on scouting and drag the enemies back to us. By session 10, we quit doing that. In my first run as a GM, I had an NPC that helped the players learn the system while also aiding in adventures. In the third session, the players basically pressed the NPC to make a decision for them. The NPC then pulled out her "lucky coin." Half the players were from the previous game. As such, they decided to choose on their own as the coin was mid-flip.
As an experienced GM I have learned all these lessons the hard way. You're absolutely right, and this is excellent advice. One area I still struggle with though, which is something I would have loved for you to address, is how to handle multiple NPCs as a GM. For example, in earlier editions of D&D the characters could each acquire 4+ retainers. This was an intended part of the design, as it was the reward for having a higher Charisma score. How did you handle large groups of retainers or henchmen, while still giving them personality, or not taking the spotlight off the players, etc.
As a fellow RPG veteran, I feel your pain when it comes to learning the lessons firsthand :P I cannot speak for Seth, but I try to avoid having that many extra's hanging around. I remember one game that a friend of mine ran. Half way through the campaign every player at the table was handling 2-3 NPC's that accompanied us on our adventures. We had to tell the GM to have them find a way to stay home as it was just too much! If you need many extra's there for something specific, I suggest having them participate in combat away from the PC's, where you can just narrate what happens and allow the players to enjoy playing in the spotlight.
Always love it when something new from Seth pops up in my recommend videos. Specially this one, since i always struggle a bit on how to implement good NPC companions and usually avoid them whenever i can.
one of my favorite tricks for NPCs was in a Runequest game, where before the campaign started I began to talk up Dakkar the immortal, an NPC that was better than your PCs in every way, legendary hero that your PCs could NEVER come close to being 1/2 as awesome as him (This started because another GM in my group kind over used the GMPC Trope) The players started as minor heroes (Farmers and shepards from the local village) and when they met up with Dakkar the Immortal, they learned his awesome secret, he was the 8th Dakkar, it was a whole Dread Pirate Roberts situation, and one of the PCs was to be the new Dakkar, his faithful sidekick, stuck around for a bit to give the players some pointers and lend to the air of legitimacy for our hero.
My first Call of Cthulhu game was "The Haunting." My Keeper used Jack the NPC as an NPC and the hiring boss. When my character failed a Sanity check and booked it for the hills, I was handed Jack the NPC.
In my last dungeons and dragons game I had the players run NPCs twice. Once when when they brought several of their guards on a journey to deliver some goods for a merchant. When that merchant attacked this caravan, for only reasons he knew, I made the Players played their characters and an NPC guards as well, 1 guard per player. One guard rolled a 19 and saved against a web spell and then rolled a natural 20 on the following round to kill the merchant wizard. It was a player who was rolling the dice so they got to feel like the hero. We gave that NPC a name and level as a result of his good deed. "Lakirk" was forever a badass guard. Then later when the PCs left a bunch of treasure behind because they couldn't carry it all. They burried the goods taking in some local landmarks and drawing a map. When they got back they sent out guards with a wagon to go get the treaure. We had a 2 hour one shot adventure just for the guards when a player called in sick several weeks later to find out what happened. The treasure was recovered the NPCs getting a full share of it and some R and R on the PCs dime as well. And then we went on to a shortened regualar PC session, but we got to play apart of the story that would normally be glazed over.
The example around 13:00 made me think of the scene in the first Shrek movie where Farquaad is trying to choose one of the princesses in the mirror, game show style. He can’t choose and then his loyal dungeon guy calls out ‘Pick number three, my lord’ while holding up two fingers.
Love your videos Seth. I’ve been a gamemaster since 86 and you touch on so many issues I’ve had to deal with myself over the years. I love hearing your take on things. I was wondering. Any plans to give us a look into the amalgam of 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules that you run? I’d really like to hear how you play and the house rules you use.
With the DMPC thing, the one thing with it that you also need to worry about is not to go to far the other direction and be afraid that a character could become one. And a short use DMPC feeling character can be used effectively for a storytelling purpose as well from the player perspective. For example, if you want to introduce powerful npcs to the party for something, most of them feel a lot like a potential DMPC to players, but their story shifts it when the plot comes up. In other media, two examples that work for this would be Ghaleon from Lunar: The Silver Star and Heathcliff from Sword Art Online (Kayaba), and it's normally something you can do for a villain trope. Putting the villain or one of their lead henchmen in the party without the players knowing it and giving some information to the party about this character while showing off that they have really powerful abilities to prepare them for later, and then pull the rug out from under them if they start relying on that character to get them out of things. If the players are perceptive, they can pick up on the real plan and either expose it, or at least learn things to expect later on for further confrontations, while he studies them... You can also do it with a heroic powerful character, and then pull the rug out from under the players by having them killed captured with the players paying witness to it and to drive on the plot. In a Star Wars campaign, the Jedi Characters master was a powerhouse, and I let the party get used to having a higher level Jedi around, then came the villain who could stomp the party and they saw the Jedi get manhandled and forced to run for it, allowing me to both use the Master as a plot point (Him ending up in a cell, so they'd attempted a rescue of where he was believed to be which was a trap, and later after torture the Master fell to the darkside and was prompted into a fight with the party). That started because of the levels attached to becoming a Jedi Knight in the WotC Star Wars games as a concept, while the players were starting to think he was a DMPC until the fight where he was getting stomped by a BBEG. There's also one that I'd done to kind of moral thought to the party, throwing in a young Paladin to the party that I'd had several character traits built into but had largely function on the same basic rules as the PC's with some exceptions, had him as the on the edge type and used the players to kind of guide his morality and ethics as it went on, perhaps having him jump a bit to far down the hill with how ruthless they were acting and then forced a confrontation in the party to kind of see what they would do when he expanded on their actions as a should do, and into the border of crazy land with a massacre, when he shifted from party member to potential villain or ally depending upon how they handled it...I was prepared to have him either go more penitent over his actions or go full on anti-paladin type based on how they dealt with it. It did get them to step back on things when their dubious morality was being thrown back at them and what it could lead to...they ended up killing him, which pushed me to still bring him back against them shifting to a combo of Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard and the Death Knight template (It was a 3.5 game). But it did end up making them shift from the path of the murder hobo for a while. Being able to use plots like those are often closed off by those who get to nervous about the DMPC side of things.
To give a couple examples of companion NPCs, I have a DMPC following the party in the 5e game I DM. She's a cleric who was a temple caretaker that was shoved off into the party when the head priest died, the (PC) cleric that was supposed to be in the party left, and she was ordered to fill the vacuum by the higher-ups. She's kind of a mentor for the new players in some sense (in that she's there to remind players of things people in that would would think), but mostly there to be an RP speaking box that represents what a non-adventurer would think of the situation they are in. That is, she's motivated mostly by not wanting to die, although she still has to follow orders. She was introduced into the party with no combat spells besides some healing spells memorized, because why would she? She's mostly a janitor that occasionally gets called to cure a disease for a donation. Her advice is often things that run directly counter to the goals of the players, wanting to avoid searching the dark hallway for possible treasure because it's not really worth risking their lives for it. She's meant to be a contrast for the very CRPG/JRPG players who haven't done tabletop before to get to see the mindset of someone who thinks high risk isn't worth high reward, and just wants to live a quiet, safe life. (She's basically a party member, and takes a cut of gp and xp, and I'll even just let players take control of her while in combat, although she's mainly a support character all-around who's there mostly because the party was lopsided to melee at one point and I wanted to put in a support caster.) Conversely, there's also a pair of kinda-followers I kinda roped into following our party in a game where I'm a player, even though the GM (it's Pathfinder) didn't expect this and had no plans. (When going on a quest to recover villagers kidnapped by orc cultists, I mentioned that we might need help carrying the wounded home, and got a couple guardsmen to join the party, even though basically the GM was trying to avoid making character sheets for them convinced they would die the very next fight after she did so.) One of the characters ("B&B" because they're brothers whose first names both start with "B") even just responds to what his other brother says with just a "Mhm". At points, some of us (or in extended RP discussions, *all* of us) forget they are there, because their joining was kind of a consequence of just doing what RP would make me think I logically should say, not what I would want to happen on a metagaming front. Over the course of gameplay, however, keeping these two mauve shirts alive (in a Lovecraft-inspired mid-level Pathfinder Game where these two are level 2 warriors) has become something of a side mission, just to try to defy the odds, simply *because* they are so unimportant to the supposed story. Basically, the idea that the players should always be the "real heroes" is definitely one we follow, but these are some interesting ways that can manifest.
Watched this video before running a one-shot dungeon crawl with some friends. It was incredibly helpful keeping the game running and making sure my players ended up being the ones in the spotlight. My players got stuck on a puzzle - an Egyptian style tomb that required a blood sacrifice to get past. The puzzle only required a drop of blood, but a PC had to inflict the wound on someone else (not themselves). So I had the NPC offer a suggestion of using him as the "sacrifice", since he was the archeologist who led them there and he wanted to get into the next room. It worked. After that, he mostly stayed back in combat, taking cover during the fight with the Big Bad and letting the PCs do the dirty work. Talking with the players after the game, they said that the NPC offering himself proved incredibly useful as they didn't want to risk unnecessary harm to themselves or the other PCs.
I like the underling type of NPC companions. For our air pirate campaign it was a given that my players have a crew. There were a few no name sailors to help on the ship but of course there were also some with character. Most of them had 1-2 traits and weren't really fleshed out but it was still nice for my players to have different characters to rely on in different situations. They also could just decide not to take a NPC with them and let them stay on the ship. Oh and they do level up a little bit. I also really liked to play the butler of one of my player characters in Cthulhu. A butler is in a nice position to be there to help, to go on an errand for the characters or just to leave them alone if told to do so, one of my players is his boss after all. I do have a problem however with NPC companion that are important to the story and therefore part of the party. We're currently playing Curse of Strahd and more often than not I have no idea what to do with Ireena, she's just kinda there and only gets involved if she's relevant for that scene.
The NPC team member in my Cyberpunk game has a number of useful contacts courtesy of his backstory/lifepath which comes in handy for things like "I don't think we should go at this half-cocked or ill-equipped" and when the players' research reveals the need for some bit of cool tech or specialised help, he knows someone. Or knows someone who might know someone. He's somewhat of a low-fat/lite no-frills debuffed "Fixer".
Great video, I actually have a beloved NPC in my Changeling the Lost game that started out as an antagonist. to make a long story short there was someone ripping holes into the reality into fairy world and people who were part of the party's organization started falling into them and they went to investigate. It led them to a woman named Spider who was unintentionally making the holes via an artifact, an artifact that made her incredibly mentally unstable and very dangerous. now I just thought that they would forcefully take the artifact from her maybe even kill her as my players primary came from hackenslash tabletop games and not really role play. but for whatever reason spider somehow endeared herself to the party and they decided to try and talk her down and freely give up the artifact and come with them, which after some solid arguments and very lucky rolls they did manage to do. And that they dropped her off with the authority of their group and I figured "okay that'll be the last they see of this NPC" but they decided to stick around and see what happened and when the authorities made it clear they weren't happy with spider the voucher and offered to take her in and keep an eye on her, and that's how they got spider as an NPC. She's excitable, creative, naive, scared of strangers has visions in her head and the party loves her, in fact they have jokingly (I think) threatened that they would come down to my state and beat me with a sock full of oranges if I ever did anything bad to her.
Great video, your insight into the game is really helpful to me as an inexperienced player. Even though I haven't played as GM so far, I feel like I still benefit from understanding the GMs part in all this and who knows, maybe I'll run my own campaign at some point
I half want to see a video summary of Star Wars (or any other movie that fits) where each major plot decision is described through the lens of an RPG. I still remember you talking about Han's failed rolls on the Death Star.
My favorite follower NPC was a knight named Elias Gregor. He was a bumbling but loyal sidekick to the two PCs, a sorcerer and a ranger, who would hang around the sorcerer during combat like a sentinel to make sure she didn't get destroyed by enemies.
Good video. My players just love to pick out their favorite npc and contrive a reason to bring them along for the fun. The current companion is Bronzeworth the town guard who’s out of his element. He’s a man in his 50s who’s past is prime but he’s got a big heart so he’s willing to help show young adventurers the ropes. I’m planning on having him retire to his family farm as soon as the party runs into their first supernatural horror... Assuming he lives...
Seth,I love all your videos(especially the ones pertaining to AD&D)but this one is by far my favorite. This is information that any dm/gm not only can but definitely utilize in their game sessions.Top notch(as always).
Mood = depressed about the lockdowns from Corona *notices a new Seth video* Inner Voice = "Woah Woah Woah" Mood = Now happy but slightly concerned my inner monologue sounds like Jack.
Our group has 3 players, so NPC companions are very common. Our last big campaign was Savage Worlds post-apocalyptic and the players got to run various NPCs who joined their party, divvying them up as they liked. The current campaign is 5e (which we find insufficiently challenging but wanted to give it a full try), I am running the NPCs. I think immersion can be helped by playing only one character, and even though I roll the dice and play the characters according to pre-set values, the players are the leaders of the group and make all of the decisions. The next campaign (that I run, as another in the group will be running Morrow Project next) will probably be Symbaroum system and stick to the NPCs being run by me (usually hirelings), but with a hardcore difficulty, fairly common player character death, and more of an association with the adventuring company than specific characters. Of course if a character can actually last for a while, I expect the immersion to be high... even higher than games where the players are practically immortal like 5e. How to combine real risk and rewarding real skill with (meaning imminent death from mistakes), without getting frustrating from restarts, seems to be among the most important things to get right for immersion.
I enjoy running companion NPCs with the party, and find that they can add a lot if it's all done in good spirits and without any desire to have an NPC shine over the PCs. I usually end up being the DM, so it's fun to still have a consistent character who can engage with the PCs. However, it's really important that it's always understood that the NPC is a supporting character, never an active, driving force. They can help and contribute (which is actually really useful if your group is smaller and needs additional hands, like mine often is), but they should never actually be the ones to make decisions about what to do or how to proceed. They're companions, people who support and follow. Our group has an explicit understanding that the NPCs that hang out with them will not take the lead. Even if they voice general feelings about the issue ("Oh man, I have a bad feeling about this place..."), it's understood that this is just portraying the general personality of the character and providing some color, never an indicator that this NPC is going to try and prevent something from happening. In the event that an NPC ends up having to act independent, a player takes the reins and controls them. Basically, players usually don't mind having a pair of helping hands who has something to say about situations, as long as they don't feel that their leading role is being taken.
10:10 My solution for this, is to come up with a specific item that NPC wants in return for their help. For example, if the goal was to kill Smoughi the Green dragon and plunder it's treasure and the party needed to hire a seafarer to baot them to it's dragon island, I would say the NPC wants a specific necklace in exchange for this service. Makes the World feel more involved and the party can decide if they want to cheat or oblige the NPC
Another great video! Seth, you come across (sincerely) as a gestalt of all the most knowledgeable and experienced gamers I've ever shared a table with. Whenever somebody asks me a complicated but interesting gaming concept if I don't have the time or even if I do I point them your way. Also ... during this time of isolation having your videos to feed my gaming addiction has been very therapeutic. Thank You! Live Long and Prosper!
For me, the best use of NPC/DMPCs is to assist players during first 1 or 2 sessions of the game. Some official D&D campaigns have pretty harsh introductory adventures which can lead to TPK, especially if players are not that experienced. Giving them such a helping hand might be the difference between "What a fun game!" and "I'll never play D&D again". Of course, these NPC/DMPCs leave the party for some reason or another - they may be killed during the last fight of the introductory section, they can refuse to travel to another location because of reasons, etc.
I keep having my players draft interesting NPCs into their party so now I hand over the character at that point to the interested player. Currently, I have one player with two-player characters that she created herself. The others each have one-self rolled character and one NPC they yanked off of me. It's a little odd.
Ah man such an amazing video! I once had an NPC that was a cook that was able to give slight resistances to the environments if the adventurers brought special foods and ingredients. The imagination is the limit for just about any companion.
I laughed out loud at "I think I just described the Star Wars plots". Great advice! When I'm running a game, my NPCs (for fun) tend to give the worst advice :-). Unless, of course, they are really stuck and then the NPC will give a clue instead of outright telling them what to do.
In my 7th Sea game, since his character was MIA for a spell, my husband played one of the NPCs -- a scoundrel who was only with the PCs because they were responsible for getting his best friend kidnapped by a mutual Big Bad Guy. As insurance, the hubby "borrowed" the party mascot (a baby goat), thinking I (as Evil GM) wouldn't risk hurting such a cute animal in order to get to him. He thought wrong. Said NPC came back as a ghost to bug the party later on -- again played by the Hubby.
In my Rogue Trader campaign, I have an Inquisitor, Azakir Halgriv of the Ordo Xenos, working with the Explorers. He is an Ascension level and so he's so much stronger than the PCs and I feel he's a great character, the PCs like him they spent pretty much an entire session helping him mend his relationship he fucked up with his lover/Interrogator: Rhia Venris. It helps he's willing to co-operate and even be working under the PCs rather than using his authority (It's their ship after all) But having him working with him is a bit of a double-edged sword, having him with them has inspired some amazing Roleplaying by the PCs, one part where one of them (a woman, both in character and out) gave him relationship advice was one of the best RPing I've ever seen, also I like the fact that the PCs can see how powerful they potentially can eventually be, but I've been trying hard to encourage some inner party RPing and I feel Azakir has discouraged that a bit, although they have done inner-party RPing about him on a few occasions. But they know how strong he is and make him tag along with them as much as possible and I've had to think out of the box to make sure he a) doesn't make the combat a cakewalk and b) steal the limelight. It helps he rathers to work alone, in a big battle I ran he went all Sly Marbo, going solo behind enemy lines, wreaking havoc far away from the PCs skirmishes and not taking command. I have also segregated his combat from there's when they're fighting with him, not even rolling it as it'll slow down combat to a crawl. That's how I can show how competent he is as a combatant without stealing the limelight. One time when they were exploring an abandoned ship I split the PCs and him, as they began their search from one end and Azakir and a squad of Storm Troopers from the other end. When the inevitable zombies attacked (It was a module) I had the PCs do the work of taking down the zombie leader thing which took them a good few hours searching the ship for answers as Azakir and his Storm Troopers were attacked by an endless horde of zombie things. By the time the PCs managed to stop the zombies, just before they finally managed to overwhelm Azakir and one Storm Trooper who were the only ones left alive (another NPC named Darrenisk who's a demolition expert who the PCs like a lot as he's done a couple of missions with them) An utterly exhausted Azakir approached them thanking them profusely for saving him, so I put him in a position to not only be saved by the PCs (It'd be the second time they saved his ass) But also not to diminish his skill as a fighter.
Our players have companion hirelings (animals/beings that have become their loyal followers after completing a module (reward)). The players roll two attack die (2d20), one for the player, and the lighter colored die for their companion. They enjoy it, so I obviously allow it and just add flavor after their rolls). So far, the NPCs have been very loyal, and the players treat the companions like their own dogs, with love and compassion, even splurging for extra and exotic foodstuffs, and beddings.
Great vid. I had smaller groups so I had one or two NPCs become an important part of the group, so when they do die it has impact. Or because of falling out becomes a threat or obstacle. I haven't been able to roll play in a few years, I am looking forward to more of your RP stories down the line.
Hi Seth! I just finished Ashes of Onyx. (Review left on Amazon) I thoroughly enjoyed the book. Very impressive. I know it was just published, but is there another book in the works?
Great to hear. And thank you very much for the review. I have some ideas for a sequel book, but it depends on how well Ashes of Onyx sells. If it's received well, then I'll likely write a Book 2. Otherwise, it's a standalone.
I'm actually rather fond of strong supporting cast in my games. For one it helps me talk to the PCs . I'm very careful, however, not to let important NPCs become "voice of the DM". They have goals themselves and the PCs can certainly dismiss them or they leave if the goals become contrary. They can be wrong. I often have a substantial number of possible supporting cast but have a meta-rule that only one can be around at a time in the party. One long running game has the PCs as the leaders of a now planar mercenary and trading group, so they have several pretty heavy hitters. Most are, however, busy with various goals. One way to help prevent true "GM PCs" is to not give them a meta-currency, if the game has one. For example, if the game has inspiration, Action Points, or whatever, don't give them to the NPCs. They may have full on stats and level and even a key role to play in the game, ideally as a support character or doing something that the PCs aren't super interested in, but they don't have that je ne sais quoi.
I use a dmpc to balance out the party’s combat abilities (it’s just me and my two brothers) and I make sure he’s always passive and there for comic relief mostly. In combat I have my two players role to decide who he attacks.
I've run a GMPC a couple of times, though happily mine seem to usually end up a lot more like your companion NPCs: when I offered to retire one my players actually asked me to keep him in. I've also played in games where an NPC started to feel a lot like a GMPC. I think what you're really talking about is that spotlight, not the GMPC per se, so how about this: every GM wants to be an agent in the world that they're creating. When they hang this desire on a feature of the environment or plot it gets called railroading; when it hangs on a character or monster it gets called a GMPC. Either way it sucks the fun out of the game because the more agency the GM's avatar in the game has, the less agency the players have.
I always really enjoy your Running RPGs videos. I think during a live stream you briefly touched the topic on how to avoid becoming snobbish as a dm. I'd love to see a video about that.
This here might be one of the most divisive topics you've ever covered. The GMPC gets a bad rap because of DMs that make them several levels higher and steal the spotlight from their characters. But here's the thing... all my NPCs are GMPCs. The villain, the mentor, the guards, the townsfolk, and yes, the companions. I turn my brain off GM mode and put it in PC mode most of the time when I play out the NPC. That helps make them vibrant. But just like when I play a PC and have OOC knowledge I don't metagame. I have played a PC and have been Chewbacca when he sets off the trap because it is what my character would do. Of course, it agitates the players LESS when it is an NPC doing it than when it is a fellow PC. By treating all my NPCs like they were a PC I am playing it forces me to give thought and weight to their actions, and when I play them it makes them more convincing that they are actual characters. Even if it is some cook with no class levels or the big bad evil guy. But maybe I am bias on the topic. I play a lot of 1v1 tabletop. That is to say, just two people. A DM and a player. When it is just one player (or even two players) I can keep the challenge really low or I can throw in some NPC party members, and I prefer the later. It gives me a chance to roleplay something with them that isn't antagonistic and give them back up, help cover their weaknesses. I'll throw in a big dumb fighter to shield the wizard or rogue character from damage. If they play the big dumb fighter I will throw in a rogue to watch their back or a cleric to keep them healed up. This gives me a little breathing room on what kind of challenges I can throw in, like you said, but with just one PC it becomes even more important. Of course, I could just let the player play more than one character. I actually enjoy that one, both as the person controlling the PCs and the DM. Playing characters interacting with each other can get away with you though, especially in text based games where you can write something as long as this post just expressing what all the PCs you are playing are doing- and PC input is way more important than NPC input so it can be necessary.
Any time somebody brings up DMPCs I think of my first game of DnD. I started playing DnD (5e) in 2017 and I was the DM because I wanted to play but I was the only one who had the books and everyone else just wanted to play anyways. I had a couple of players who were new to 5e but had played ADnD before and they pushed for me to make a DMPC because their old DM had one. I agreed because I didn't know any better and I actually had the opposite problem from as what people talk about with DMPCs. And so Zevan the half elf rogue was born. I actively tried to make sure everyone else had a chance to do things because I felt weird roleplaying off of myself and as a result Zevan never really said or did anything interesting other than banter with the PCs and give exposition. The end result was me feeling unsatisfied with my glorified henchmen PC in an otherwise fun game. I started trying to kill off Zevan without putting the party in a position to be TPKd so that I could just focus on DMing. However, my players still saw Zevan as their friend and a member of the party so they would always save him and then playfully mock him later for being useless. Eventually I just decided enough was enough and told my players Zevan was officially just an NPC. My players were completely unphased by my declaration and I realized I had been stressing myself out for no reason. My enjoyment of the game increased dramatically after that. It was shortly after this point I started watching DnD youtubers and saw all the videos about why DMPCs are bad. Basically everything I was actively trying not to do and stressing out over because I thought I had to have a DMPC.
I have a GMPC/NPC right now. It was my PC, when I had to take a break from GMing and a friend took over the gaming sessions and is turned to a NPC since then. But I really like your thoughts about the topic. Very well made video, and even if you are not satisfied by the standard of the script, it felt really well structured and was easy to follow!
8:36 Tasha's Cauldron of Everything introduces the Sidekicks system to D&D 5e in an elegant way. In regards to XP, the sidekicks level up when the average of the player levels go up.
I had a GMPC in a huge game Like 10 players (drop in drop out) everyone was rogue or fighter rogue or an artificer or artificer wizard I GMPCd a barbarian He was mostly useless to everyone outside of combat (Until one of the artificers figured out he had been slowly teaching himself crafting to make better gifts and was at minimum a decent apprentice and at best a savant craftsman) he had an int of like 4 and no charisma because he was an orc he was a genuine and kind character who would make special meals and drinks and gifts and had one character trait Unwavering Dog like Loyalty He started out as combat And as his usefulness there wavered (cross classes becoming more common/Magical Synergy etc etc) He transitioned into being An extra tool check with a lower proficiency if the artificer was making something and needed a second chance to roll Id be remiss to call him an npc though because I was ALWAYS with the party if someone got downed Id sweep in to try to save the encounter (lost like 3 encounters as him though because he leveled with the party) If you failed a check "heres stonetooths dice man good luck" if you slipped and fell stonetooth rolled to pick you up But he was also beloved And protected Ferociously by the artificers So I know my only experience with a DMPC was positive and my players still talk about stonetooth sometimes
Hey Seth, I don't know how, but even if I'm always watching your videos I just realized that you launched a Patreon a couple months ago! I really think you should upload a video about it, I subscribed as soon as I found out, and I'm sure there are many others like me, who don't know about the Patreon. All the best from Chile
Hey Felipe. I finally had enough people telling me to get one that I finally acquiesced. I don't do much with it. Since I'm a 1-man show, spending time making backer rewards or content would detract with time to do videos. I should put something together soon for my awesome backers.
@@SSkorkowsky even if you don't offer anything extra (although those BTS pics and posts are awesome) I'm sure lots of people would at least pay $1, just to thank you for all the work you've done and the fun you've provided us through the years. Don't be shy Seth! And BTW, I work doing videos for a living so I know all the work you put behind every upload. Finally, I'd love to hear you impressions on "Alone Against the Dark", since I think I'll play it one of these quarentene days. Cheers
One possible problem with companions I noticed in a group where I play (heavily leans into the "don't steal the spotlight" point): My girldfriend played a healer/buffer/combat shaman, and we had an NPC cleric (a child, by the way, but somehow most of the group were fine dragging him into dungeons and whatnot because he was quite attached and one of the PCs is his custodian). Now sincy my gf is a hardcore introvert, she didn't make much of an impression. And - now the catchpoint - the other players went to the NPC for healing exclusively. Despite said NPC being a solid deal weaker at it; afaik, he was originally designed to be both a storyhook as well as an emergency healer in case noone rolled one. (It got to the point where they were queueing in front of the NPC, and she just stood there, silently musing why even with waiting times, noone considered asking the actual PC healer.) My recommendation: For GMs who have companion NPCs, either have them fill a role that none of the players have, or subtly redirect requests for the shared speciality towards the PC, especially with more silent players. Alternatively have the NPC be active themselves, but a friend of one more of the silent players to engage them.
I have a semi-companion character currently who is close to being integrated with the party by the events of the story, and this is conveniently lining up with a new player joining. They have a pre-built character they can slide into and they get to reveal this person's big secret on their own, giving both them and the other players a lot of reward for their past endeavors and kicking off the next story arc. I'm glad I shook off my fear of using companion characters; I used to think it would automatically devolve into me trying to lead the party or vicariously insert my own player character into the group, but I should've trusted myself more on that front.
For Pathfinder/DnD3.5, regarding NPCs and XP, depends on their status. Hirelings/Followers specifically do not receive XP as they do not level, while Cohorts do receive XP but it is not a share of what the players receive, rather they receive a separate percentage based on your character level and the XP you just received. So anything that does receive XP is either a PC or a DMC, the latter of which should be used very carefully. Other systems may operate differently, but if you want your players to use NPCs, it is generally a good idea to not punish them for doing so. Case in point. It flat out defeats the point of letting your PCs bring along NPCs if you're just going to increase the difficulty of the encounter, and can be frankly dickish if they spent time and/or resources scouting the area, doubly so if you don't then increase the payout in response. Honestly if you have a specific difficulty in mind for a given encounter... don't let them bring NPCs, simple as that. Or better yet don't think in terms of difficulty but rather authenticity or enjoyment. Would they have more fun if they encountered more enemies as a direct result of attempting to make things easier for themselves? The answer is almost always, no. Now if they fuck up scouting, then sure increase the difficulty as the enemy have a legitimate reason to respond to. But don't then immediately scale it up to their response if your players then decide to increase the number of NPCs they bring along. Or if you absolutely must, which you never do, then give them a chance to spot your spy who followed them back and possibly prevent any further escalation.
I actually just hit the climax with an NPC companion, a Jedi Master who was teaching one of my PC's. He was pretty much the guy that lead the party because most of the players like to go for a "Stoic" approach. They relied heavily on the Oskla, who took them planet to planet under orders from another Jedi Master. Eventually, Oskla found out that the other Jedi Master who gave them their missions betrayed them and was using it to find an ancient weapon. Oskla, had half the PC's go off and confront the evil Master, and he and the other half went to find the weapon. However, in a twist, that none of my players really saw coming cause Oskla was such a generally good guy, he revealed himself to be the "Evil" master, to the players he brought with him. Explaining that these were the only PC's he could tolerate as the others were pretty much the guys that never talked or were borderline murder hobo's. He, sort of surprising even me, convinced the half he brought with him to join him. Even after revealing that he'd sabotaged the cruiser the other party was going to, and was gonna blow that thing up. It was a pretty good session, and all the players surprisingly weren't too angry, and kinda rolled with it.
I am increasingly convinced that Seth doesn't actually have a gaming group and that his players are just him in various wigs putting on increasingly absurd voices, which of course makes all the PCs GMPCs.
I know the Internet is exactly the place for ridiculous conspiracy theories, but come on...
As great as that would be, he had one of his players come on camera at the end of one of his live streams to prove that wasn't the case.
How is this joke comment being taken seriously?
I think that actually makes the players GMPCs and their characters, GMPCCs. It's all abit inception.
@@clukskin His latest video was all about one of his players taking over as GM for his other personas, which would make him a GMPCGM for the other GMPCs' GMPCCs, right? :)
I hope you're proud of Jack 'The NPC' Malone, he's come a long way from having his camera in the pawnshop and having a drinking problem in 1920, to being the main star of your module/system/campaign reviews and GM discussions, to working for the Bureau of Investigation in 1924 as a senior agent in your first published scenario. May he be a good influence to us all for a long time.
Jack certainly has led an interesting life.
“...in your first published scenario”
WHUH? >_>
"Ah'm questionin' th' validity of his choice..." :D
The cutaways on this channel are often comedy gold, and yet reinforce the point of the video so well.
How to stop an NPC Leader taking the spotlight away from the PCs.
Ripley : How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant?
Lieutenant Gorman : Thirty eight... simulated.
Private Vasquez : How many *combat* drops?
Lieutenant Gorman : Uh, two. Including this one.
Private Drake : Sheet.
Private Hudson : Oh, man...
14:02 That move right there is an underrated DM tool. "say something, pause, dice clatters behind DM screen, finish statement".
The Venture Brothers, a sign of exquisite taste.
4:29 Seth shows his jealousy. Jack’s no loser.
That's what Jack wants you to think
Regarding the "asking NPC for guidance/support," it's not always a coy move. I have a couple rather passive/timid players, who will pretty much always defer to a seemingly knowledgeable NPC in any context. And while it's fine to get input from an NPC to inform a player decision, they shouldn't be getting a decision directly from an NPC.
I had an NPC (the paladin's quasi-"horse", a summoned fae who took many forms and claimed to know everything) who was partially there to make the summoned mount more interesting and partially as a way to provide some setting and world info on demand. The paladin, one of the more passive players, had a tendency to ask the horse way more than needed. The more she pushed the horse, though, the more vague and abstract the horse got. I had a New Age Gibberish generator on tap to salt the horse's dialogue with more and more heavily once things got past the basic setting info I wanted to provide.
Asking "what should we do" and getting "to truly evolve, we must release the self-actualization of the past self" quickly leads to people not asking the horse too many questions.
Two years on, so pardon if I disturb, but I do hope that you managed to include on situation bizarre enough for the horse to go "...I don't fricking know."
Oh no. His name was Gnosis, he always knew. And he was always right.
If you asked him, anyway.
@@blackhammer5035 that gives me very strong archer "its just like that old gypsy woman said!" vibes
"Because that's what hungover teachers do." So true, guru, so true.
as a GM myself, I absolutely despise GMPC. You know what makes a great GMPC? A well crafted villain
Hey Seth, I don't know if you remember me commenting about using Jack Mallone the NPC as a tutorial that will help my players on my first time running CoC the haunting and even just GMing in general. It went fantastic bro! They loved Jack and I accidentally gave them a plot hook because they didn't find the church of contemplation. They rolled a spot hidden when they visited the guy in the sanitarium and said the Bible he was reading out of had that eye symbol on it, and when they talked to the wife, she said they had a Catholic priest of a long forgotten sect come bless their house. Unknowingly increasing Mr. corbits power. Haha it's great man your videos have helped A LOT and it was a great break from DnD and Cyberpunk
Awesome to hear!
I'm thinking of demanding a third night off (I have no hard days off) from work just to start running CoC
@@skirk248 if you have the right group it's so fun. I would rip little bits of paper off my notebook and write things like "you are fine" or "where are they" or stuff like "I need help" and that throws them off. One of my players actually used what I wrote on one of them while talking to a NPC and I gave them extra information because of it. Also when they're getting just junk spooky shit, when you give someone a note with pertinent information no one will be the wiser
@@HoundXXII That's genius and I'm stealing it
@@skirk248 lol happily!
I used Jack for the haunting and was very careful that he didn’t ever take the lead or succeed for the players. He was the partner and cofounder of a player’s private investigation agency (which was 2 employees big lol). Anyway, the running joke was that until the Haunting nearly all their clients were people who thought their spouses were cheating on them. So they go to a sandwich shop for lunch and through some improvised background the player and Jack actually gets a discount since they found out that Galvani, the owner of the restaurant, had a cheating wife.
When they were finishing up I had Jack lean in and mutter, “Hey, last one out’s fuckin’ Galvani’s wife!” and Galvani succeeded on a listen check. That was comedy gold and we’ve been joking about it since.
19:10 "The gamemaster knows what's behind the door."
Me: looking at my _Random 'What's Behind the Door' Table,_ "I know what _might_ be behind the door."
"He might have a mundane item on him that we forgot to put on our character sheet."
Never happens to me. Mainly because most of the games I've played usually have the GM give is a liberal amount of starting gold to buy weapons and armor. Which of course means I buy a single dagger, one spell book, 10 animal traps, 30 glass vials, 8 chickens, two goats, 500 feet of hemp rope, a ladder, and like 30lbs of salt.
Thanks for this video Seth, I've been running a Dark Heresy 2E campaign and I have brand new players. They've been kind of "Go straight for the mansion" despite me putting information in the world or hints to other things, and I realize now I need to have a NPC that shows them they can do things like investigate, talk their way in or out of places, and do research. I made this mistake because the last time I ran a DH2E game it was with Vets, who knew pretty much everything.
My party is currently traveling with bonesaw that i stole from your video!
I've been GMing for literally decades now. I know all this stuff. And yet, I still love being reminded and inspired by hearing it from a fellow GM.
I just found you yesterday. Im still trying to catch up!
One of the best rpg channels on RUclips
Hurry up, he's got a SHOWING to do!
(don't worry, you'll get it when you get that far ;) )
Have fun, lots of good times here.
@@handlebarfox2366 oh man i still play that vid. Not gonna lie i did this in shadowrun after watching this my players where like that is even happening. Lol. Oh man so good.
@@willcherry9029 Yes!
Holy crap same! Except now it’s been a month for you and only two days for me lol
You are 100% correct about the GMPCs. My wife and I were playing with a new (to us) group that was playing a V&V campaign which met every Monday evening. That was the first time we'd ever played V&V. Our characters were brought in as level 1 while the other PCs were at least level 3 (& from a previous, regular campaign).
The GM introduced a GMPC right after out characters were getting to meet one another. Like any good mentor he gave us our marching orders, warnings, and left. There were shenanigans that had both my wife and myself on edge and irritated with the group (as a whole) & the GM (in particular). He was trying, but he was also trying our patience with how much he appeared to want us to play roles in the story he'd written (did I mention that he'd actually created my wife's backstory, but promptly forgot it and never bothered to remember or store it?).
Unfortunately when time came to fight the BBG, the GM kept trying to railroad my wife's character into doing what he wanted her to do (not what she kept trying to do). The session ended with his GMPC coming out of a "necklace" that had magically placed itself on her (his description) to defeat the BBG, who only had a few HP left before we could have taken care of him ourselves.
It got worse. When my wife's character called the GMPC out of his deus ex machina move and the crap he had been pulling (which included railroading her character, bullying her into "just going with it," & not understanding how her character's morals/motivations would've played out), the GM got mad at her for argued with him (he never understood that her character was trying to save her party members & that she would have sacrificed herself in order to give them more time to defeat the BBG) & he ended up triggering her PTSD. After the game was over, she tried to explain her side, that he had triggered her PTSD, that she had been trying to roleplay (but the GM & the GM's character hadn't let her do anything), that her character was trying to lure the BBG away from the vulnerable party members, etc. he didn't believe he, continued the argument from during the game, and argued that her character wouldn't have acted that way. What was even worse was he actually in game punished both of our characters.
Over the next few months we tried to go back to the game, and the GM eventually "apologized" (read this as he said he understood, but ended up retconning so often every time he tried to restart the game that I think he lost track of why our characters were being punished, so he tried to convince us that the punishments were somehow "beneficial") & we cycled through a few different settings before the group disbanded. We heard he was GM/DMing again about a year later, but we had no interest in every being in another game with him. He is a nice guy and may have a couple decades of experience with RPGs, but he sucks/sucked as a DM/GM!
You need to post this to a reddit rpg horror story subreddit!
I rarely (but certainly some doozies when I do!) learn anything from Seth's videos, but I still love watching them for the same reason people like eating Mac & Cheese. Comfort food.
THANK YOU SETH!
Danger Mouse was my favorite show as a kid. I approve of your GM.
I literally took a break from writing an adventure with an NPC companion, the first time I've ever included one, and this video pops up. Thanks, Seth. You're a legend!
First I gotta say, I freaking love Seth's D&D book collection in the background. I've been playing D&D I think a little longer than Seth has (I got started in 1988 with the Classic Basic D&D Red Box Edition before moving on to AD&D and beyond) and I have a lot of those same books. I'm a collector and NEVER throw out any D&D gaming materials (you never know when they might come in handy). I could recognize several 1st Edition AD&D books, 2nd Edition AD&D books, the 2nd Edition (Class Name) Handbooks, etc. Amazing set up Seth, and I love it.
Second, I want to touch on DMPCs. While I agree that they often don't work, if the DM is disciplined enough they CAN work. This is very rare, for much like when active pro wrestlers are also a promotion's booker there's always that temptation to make themselves the star of the show, but if they can keep a leash on their own desires and just let the players take the lead, it CAN work. First, the character should be one that's really only used for extra muscle. It can be a fighter with low to average INT & WIS scores, so if asked a question the DM can let the dice make the decisions for him allowing himself an out from metagaming. Or it can be a sorcerer, again with low to average INT & WIS scores, whose spell selection is more combat focused rather than not (so few if any Open Lock or Detect Lie spells and more Mage Armor and Fireball spells). So they're basically an important tag along NPC that's there to help, but stays in the back and doesn't hog the spotlight.
These characters are useful if the group wants to try a rotating DM system, where the players all take turns as DM in order to prevent DM burnout, but don't want to be switching systems/campaigns/games/characters every time. I mean players put a lot of time and effort into their characters. They come up with interesting back stories for them and life quests that they want to see utilized. They want to be able to continue to develop these characters and having to start over from scratch every few weeks is incredibly irritating and frustrating. By having a rotating DM system in an agreed on campaign setting, and by the DM having a DMPC, this allows (in theory) for the DM to switch from DM to player and back again without having to try to come up with a reason why his character is leaving and rejoining the party every time. And it also allows his character to be roughly the same level as the party consistently, as the character won't be sitting out several adventures between its player being a player and being a DM.
I mean, imagine being a player in this type of system. You've worked your character up to 5th level. You have a great idea for an adventure. You take over as DM, maintaining the same campaign and characters. You put everyone else through a tough adventure and they've all managed to level up to 10th. Now a new DM takes over and your character rejoins the group, but is now 5 levels behind everyone else because he sat out the last adventure. Of course this example is fairly extreme, but you get the idea.
So again, it takes a LOT of mental discipline to use DMPCs wisely, but it CAN be done.
Currently running Tomb of Annihilation again, my players ran into a sneak thief who stole some gold from them, and, while trying to save an NPCs loved one, discovered the same kid had stolen a massive jewel that the guy they were rescuing had been accused of taking. Upon capturing the kid, they pled for his life, and that he be assigned to them to learn a trade. Hopefully, I can make this kid less annoying than Short Round.
Also, Mister Skorkowsky, you forgot Raiders of the Lost Ark. Indiana’s guide tried to steal the idol and forced Indi to make some skill rolls to survive. Wildcard!!!!
The hardest thing I have with NPC's is remembering They have they're own agency and accords. NPC's are great at making your world more dynamic and living but I have a hard time remembering to make NPC's have lives and move around. I make my NPC's like MMORPG NPC's! They just stay in their little area!
Well for D&D anyway. In Call of Cthulhu my NPC's are just as living as the PC's. Idk why I can't translate that from one game to another:/ lol
Usually when it comes to splitting XP and treasure with long-term NPCs, we just say that the loot the GM presents is what the PCs get to split, and the NPC ally is getting phantom XP/treasure that was "always there" but is simply never mentioned. That way they can have their NPC friend along (if they want to) without worrying about having to make un-fun decisions based around treasure and experience points.
Imperatrix i like how the old dnd modules did it where followers would have different terms for their employment, a wizard may ask for any scrolls and 10% of the gold, or a fighter might ask just for 25% of the money. Just take the agreed share out of any piles of loot found before telling them what they receive, assuming the PCs dont try to hide items from their hirelings
@@piemaniac9410 Typically the NPCs in our games that come along with the PCs are either close friends with the characters or are playing classes used to fill holes in the party composition; it's extremely rare to hire what might be considered a "mercenary". For example, in our Ravenloft game, Ismark (also Ireena, mostly) has been traveling with us basically for the entire campaign because he hates Strahd as much (probably more, tbh) than we do. In a previous game, the party had a cleric NPC friend who was traveling with them out of concern for their safety (and because the party otherwise had zero healing ability). Given that, I prefer to not bother with penalizing them at all (hence, "there was always some extra loot there that they took, don't worry about it"). The NPC is there to make the game more fun, and having to make a choice between taking your friend and getting less of a reward or leaving them behind just to get extra stuff isn't really a fun choice to make on a purely out of character level. Ravenloft just wouldn't have been the same without Ismark and Ireena there to be part of the struggle, and saying "well...you CAN do that, but have a penalty" just doesn't seem like a great thing to do.
Loot in our games is also by definition honest. No one can steal loot and any loot goes on to a party loot sheet that can be seen at any time by anyone who wants to. Stealing party loot is largely just an irritating, petty act and we've decided that we don't want it to be a part of our experience.
My absolute favorite npc companion I've ever run was when one of my players called me late one night saying:
"I think my character has a son."
That kid was smart, studious, polite, and a decent shot. I adored playing him, and I'm kinda bummed out that that game closed out.
This was an excellent video! A lot of great advice for running NPCs. Both my kids have started running D&D for their friends, and I'm going to push them this way. My youngest already watches your videos.
Not going to lie Seth's given me inspiration to run more games
Having the mentor character watch the pcs fight from a distance with his note pad out and saying, "interesting" every couple rounds... performance review.
I added a character based on Dandelion from the Witcher books for my players.
My players are by now after one session used to explaining that this is definetly Not the bard that had an affair with X woman where X women is usually married to Y influential or nearby Male/ female .
After my last session I realized I'm gonna have to have an NPC companion stay with the group for much longer than expected, despite me not wanting it. This video arrived just in time!
I have to admit, I did the GMPC thing for far too long when I was running games. Fortunately, I grew out of it.
I think if most of us look back to our early days of GMing, we realize we made this mistake.
I usually run a GMPC because of how small my game group is (4 of us total, typically only three at the table at any given time),pretty much been this way since I started playing in the late 90's/early 00's, been actively trying to pare back their overall effect on the story in recent campaigns, especially since my players have just started collecting NPC's as a campaign goes on.
I run a DMPC but I built him entirely as support, using a bard built around boosting ithers
The last couple of GMPCs I tossed in were Redshirts... "Hey, Guys!... Look what I found over here!" ...
@@harmonlanager2670 I think that's the good way to do it. Make sure that the PCs aren't outshone by NPCs in the areas the PCs choose to focus on. Support characters are good examples of this but it can even work with a fighter or damage dealer if the PCs are still the stars.
It’s very hard to turn the players companions against them, with how very protective and loving the players are to their new companions.
They would be hippys from the 70s, if they could time travel, that’s how loving they are to them, very appreciative for the followers.
I used to GM a lot and your videos are a delightful mixture of things I used to do, things I never even thought of, and things I really shouldn't have done. Also seriously making me want to do GM again.
My party played truth or dare one night, and one of us was dared to try to seduce a goblin later on. Well, he somehow succeeded and we had Camper the Hobgoblin join us for the main dungeon crawl as his boyfriend. Camper was a real MVP, taking down undead to defend his casual boyfriend. Him leaving the party in the end was bittersweet, but we no longer need training wheels and the plot moved on.
Jack acompanied my characters to The Corbit House too, ended up thrown from the bedroom window, going insane in the basement and actually managing to get out of the adventure without actually beleiving in the supernatural.
Haha. Oh wow. I love the idea that he's the one that walked away not believing anything.
In Conan, if the players try to have the NPC make important decisions, I drop an appropriate amount of Doom into the Doom Bowl.
One of my favorite games involved a long-running NPC as part of our crew (I was a player). After 6 sessions, the team started relying on the NPC or using them for decisions or "scouting." Suddenly, the NPC had a "lucky coin" he would flip on any decision (an actual coin was used) and we usually ended up taking the harder route, and would always fail on scouting and drag the enemies back to us. By session 10, we quit doing that.
In my first run as a GM, I had an NPC that helped the players learn the system while also aiding in adventures. In the third session, the players basically pressed the NPC to make a decision for them. The NPC then pulled out her "lucky coin." Half the players were from the previous game. As such, they decided to choose on their own as the coin was mid-flip.
As an experienced GM I have learned all these lessons the hard way. You're absolutely right, and this is excellent advice. One area I still struggle with though, which is something I would have loved for you to address, is how to handle multiple NPCs as a GM. For example, in earlier editions of D&D the characters could each acquire 4+ retainers. This was an intended part of the design, as it was the reward for having a higher Charisma score. How did you handle large groups of retainers or henchmen, while still giving them personality, or not taking the spotlight off the players, etc.
As a fellow RPG veteran, I feel your pain when it comes to learning the lessons firsthand :P
I cannot speak for Seth, but I try to avoid having that many extra's hanging around. I remember one game that a friend of mine ran. Half way through the campaign every player at the table was handling 2-3 NPC's that accompanied us on our adventures. We had to tell the GM to have them find a way to stay home as it was just too much!
If you need many extra's there for something specific, I suggest having them participate in combat away from the PC's, where you can just narrate what happens and allow the players to enjoy playing in the spotlight.
Always love it when something new from Seth pops up in my recommend videos.
Specially this one, since i always struggle a bit on how to implement good NPC companions and usually avoid them whenever i can.
one of my favorite tricks for NPCs was in a Runequest game, where before the campaign started I began to talk up Dakkar the immortal, an NPC that was better than your PCs in every way, legendary hero that your PCs could NEVER come close to being 1/2 as awesome as him (This started because another GM in my group kind over used the GMPC Trope) The players started as minor heroes (Farmers and shepards from the local village) and when they met up with Dakkar the Immortal, they learned his awesome secret, he was the 8th Dakkar, it was a whole Dread Pirate Roberts situation, and one of the PCs was to be the new Dakkar, his faithful sidekick, stuck around for a bit to give the players some pointers and lend to the air of legitimacy for our hero.
My first Call of Cthulhu game was "The Haunting." My Keeper used Jack the NPC as an NPC and the hiring boss. When my character failed a Sanity check and booked it for the hills, I was handed Jack the NPC.
In my last dungeons and dragons game I had the players run NPCs twice. Once when when they brought several of their guards on a journey to deliver some goods for a merchant. When that merchant attacked this caravan, for only reasons he knew, I made the Players played their characters and an NPC guards as well, 1 guard per player. One guard rolled a 19 and saved against a web spell and then rolled a natural 20 on the following round to kill the merchant wizard. It was a player who was rolling the dice so they got to feel like the hero. We gave that NPC a name and level as a result of his good deed. "Lakirk" was forever a badass guard. Then later when the PCs left a bunch of treasure behind because they couldn't carry it all. They burried the goods taking in some local landmarks and drawing a map. When they got back they sent out guards with a wagon to go get the treaure. We had a 2 hour one shot adventure just for the guards when a player called in sick several weeks later to find out what happened. The treasure was recovered the NPCs getting a full share of it and some R and R on the PCs dime as well. And then we went on to a shortened regualar PC session, but we got to play apart of the story that would normally be glazed over.
Everyone's gangsta until they realise the NPC's "thoughtful decision" is based on a die roll...
The example around 13:00 made me think of the scene in the first Shrek movie where Farquaad is trying to choose one of the princesses in the mirror, game show style. He can’t choose and then his loyal dungeon guy calls out ‘Pick number three, my lord’ while holding up two fingers.
Love your videos Seth. I’ve been a gamemaster since 86 and you touch on so many issues I’ve had to deal with myself over the years. I love hearing your take on things.
I was wondering. Any plans to give us a look into the amalgam of 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules that you run? I’d really like to hear how you play and the house rules you use.
Me too brother!
Mind if I pick your brain?
As a new GM I really like these videos, you've helped me avoid pitfalls that I know I would have fallen into otherwise. Thanks Seth!
With the DMPC thing, the one thing with it that you also need to worry about is not to go to far the other direction and be afraid that a character could become one.
And a short use DMPC feeling character can be used effectively for a storytelling purpose as well from the player perspective.
For example, if you want to introduce powerful npcs to the party for something, most of them feel a lot like a potential DMPC to players, but their story shifts it when the plot comes up.
In other media, two examples that work for this would be Ghaleon from Lunar: The Silver Star and Heathcliff from Sword Art Online (Kayaba), and it's normally something you can do for a villain trope. Putting the villain or one of their lead henchmen in the party without the players knowing it and giving some information to the party about this character while showing off that they have really powerful abilities to prepare them for later, and then pull the rug out from under them if they start relying on that character to get them out of things. If the players are perceptive, they can pick up on the real plan and either expose it, or at least learn things to expect later on for further confrontations, while he studies them...
You can also do it with a heroic powerful character, and then pull the rug out from under the players by having them killed captured with the players paying witness to it and to drive on the plot. In a Star Wars campaign, the Jedi Characters master was a powerhouse, and I let the party get used to having a higher level Jedi around, then came the villain who could stomp the party and they saw the Jedi get manhandled and forced to run for it, allowing me to both use the Master as a plot point (Him ending up in a cell, so they'd attempted a rescue of where he was believed to be which was a trap, and later after torture the Master fell to the darkside and was prompted into a fight with the party). That started because of the levels attached to becoming a Jedi Knight in the WotC Star Wars games as a concept, while the players were starting to think he was a DMPC until the fight where he was getting stomped by a BBEG.
There's also one that I'd done to kind of moral thought to the party, throwing in a young Paladin to the party that I'd had several character traits built into but had largely function on the same basic rules as the PC's with some exceptions, had him as the on the edge type and used the players to kind of guide his morality and ethics as it went on, perhaps having him jump a bit to far down the hill with how ruthless they were acting and then forced a confrontation in the party to kind of see what they would do when he expanded on their actions as a should do, and into the border of crazy land with a massacre, when he shifted from party member to potential villain or ally depending upon how they handled it...I was prepared to have him either go more penitent over his actions or go full on anti-paladin type based on how they dealt with it.
It did get them to step back on things when their dubious morality was being thrown back at them and what it could lead to...they ended up killing him, which pushed me to still bring him back against them shifting to a combo of Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard and the Death Knight template (It was a 3.5 game). But it did end up making them shift from the path of the murder hobo for a while.
Being able to use plots like those are often closed off by those who get to nervous about the DMPC side of things.
Just found you Saturday and binge all your rpg philosophy video seen I'm trying to get into tabletop games.
To give a couple examples of companion NPCs, I have a DMPC following the party in the 5e game I DM. She's a cleric who was a temple caretaker that was shoved off into the party when the head priest died, the (PC) cleric that was supposed to be in the party left, and she was ordered to fill the vacuum by the higher-ups. She's kind of a mentor for the new players in some sense (in that she's there to remind players of things people in that would would think), but mostly there to be an RP speaking box that represents what a non-adventurer would think of the situation they are in. That is, she's motivated mostly by not wanting to die, although she still has to follow orders. She was introduced into the party with no combat spells besides some healing spells memorized, because why would she? She's mostly a janitor that occasionally gets called to cure a disease for a donation. Her advice is often things that run directly counter to the goals of the players, wanting to avoid searching the dark hallway for possible treasure because it's not really worth risking their lives for it. She's meant to be a contrast for the very CRPG/JRPG players who haven't done tabletop before to get to see the mindset of someone who thinks high risk isn't worth high reward, and just wants to live a quiet, safe life. (She's basically a party member, and takes a cut of gp and xp, and I'll even just let players take control of her while in combat, although she's mainly a support character all-around who's there mostly because the party was lopsided to melee at one point and I wanted to put in a support caster.)
Conversely, there's also a pair of kinda-followers I kinda roped into following our party in a game where I'm a player, even though the GM (it's Pathfinder) didn't expect this and had no plans. (When going on a quest to recover villagers kidnapped by orc cultists, I mentioned that we might need help carrying the wounded home, and got a couple guardsmen to join the party, even though basically the GM was trying to avoid making character sheets for them convinced they would die the very next fight after she did so.) One of the characters ("B&B" because they're brothers whose first names both start with "B") even just responds to what his other brother says with just a "Mhm". At points, some of us (or in extended RP discussions, *all* of us) forget they are there, because their joining was kind of a consequence of just doing what RP would make me think I logically should say, not what I would want to happen on a metagaming front. Over the course of gameplay, however, keeping these two mauve shirts alive (in a Lovecraft-inspired mid-level Pathfinder Game where these two are level 2 warriors) has become something of a side mission, just to try to defy the odds, simply *because* they are so unimportant to the supposed story.
Basically, the idea that the players should always be the "real heroes" is definitely one we follow, but these are some interesting ways that can manifest.
Watched this video before running a one-shot dungeon crawl with some friends.
It was incredibly helpful keeping the game running and making sure my players ended up being the ones in the spotlight.
My players got stuck on a puzzle - an Egyptian style tomb that required a blood sacrifice to get past. The puzzle only required a drop of blood, but a PC had to inflict the wound on someone else (not themselves).
So I had the NPC offer a suggestion of using him as the "sacrifice", since he was the archeologist who led them there and he wanted to get into the next room. It worked.
After that, he mostly stayed back in combat, taking cover during the fight with the Big Bad and letting the PCs do the dirty work.
Talking with the players after the game, they said that the NPC offering himself proved incredibly useful as they didn't want to risk unnecessary harm to themselves or the other PCs.
I like the underling type of NPC companions.
For our air pirate campaign it was a given that my players have a crew. There were a few no name sailors to help on the ship but of course there were also some with character. Most of them had 1-2 traits and weren't really fleshed out but it was still nice for my players to have different characters to rely on in different situations. They also could just decide not to take a NPC with them and let them stay on the ship. Oh and they do level up a little bit.
I also really liked to play the butler of one of my player characters in Cthulhu. A butler is in a nice position to be there to help, to go on an errand for the characters or just to leave them alone if told to do so, one of my players is his boss after all.
I do have a problem however with NPC companion that are important to the story and therefore part of the party. We're currently playing Curse of Strahd and more often than not I have no idea what to do with Ireena, she's just kinda there and only gets involved if she's relevant for that scene.
The NPC team member in my Cyberpunk game has a number of useful contacts courtesy of his backstory/lifepath which comes in handy for things like "I don't think we should go at this half-cocked or ill-equipped" and when the players' research reveals the need for some bit of cool tech or specialised help, he knows someone. Or knows someone who might know someone. He's somewhat of a low-fat/lite no-frills debuffed "Fixer".
Great video, I actually have a beloved NPC in my Changeling the Lost game that started out as an antagonist. to make a long story short there was someone ripping holes into the reality into fairy world and people who were part of the party's organization started falling into them and they went to investigate. It led them to a woman named Spider who was unintentionally making the holes via an artifact, an artifact that made her incredibly mentally unstable and very dangerous.
now I just thought that they would forcefully take the artifact from her maybe even kill her as my players primary came from hackenslash tabletop games and not really role play. but for whatever reason spider somehow endeared herself to the party and they decided to try and talk her down and freely give up the artifact and come with them, which after some solid arguments and very lucky rolls they did manage to do.
And that they dropped her off with the authority of their group and I figured "okay that'll be the last they see of this NPC" but they decided to stick around and see what happened and when the authorities made it clear they weren't happy with spider the voucher and offered to take her in and keep an eye on her, and that's how they got spider as an NPC.
She's excitable, creative, naive, scared of strangers has visions in her head and the party loves her, in fact they have jokingly (I think) threatened that they would come down to my state and beat me with a sock full of oranges if I ever did anything bad to her.
Great video, your insight into the game is really helpful to me as an inexperienced player. Even though I haven't played as GM so far, I feel like I still benefit from understanding the GMs part in all this and who knows, maybe I'll run my own campaign at some point
I half want to see a video summary of Star Wars (or any other movie that fits) where each major plot decision is described through the lens of an RPG. I still remember you talking about Han's failed rolls on the Death Star.
"I also think I just described the Star Wars Formula."
I think he did! 🤔😄
I think this might be the first video that has one of the gang that represents players and Jack the NPC in the same video
My favorite follower NPC was a knight named Elias Gregor. He was a bumbling but loyal sidekick to the two PCs, a sorcerer and a ranger, who would hang around the sorcerer during combat like a sentinel to make sure she didn't get destroyed by enemies.
A D&D group I'm in were given a couple of those in the Tomb of Annihilation, but we were too busy interacting with each other to notice.
Good video. My players just love to pick out their favorite npc and contrive a reason to bring them along for the fun. The current companion is Bronzeworth the town guard who’s out of his element. He’s a man in his 50s who’s past is prime but he’s got a big heart so he’s willing to help show young adventurers the ropes. I’m planning on having him retire to his family farm as soon as the party runs into their first supernatural horror...
Assuming he lives...
Seth,I love all your videos(especially the ones pertaining to AD&D)but this one is by far my favorite. This is information that any dm/gm not only can but definitely utilize in their game sessions.Top notch(as always).
Mood = depressed about the lockdowns from Corona
*notices a new Seth video*
Inner Voice = "Woah Woah Woah"
Mood = Now happy but slightly concerned my inner monologue sounds like Jack.
A wonderful video as always Seth! This one was worth its weight in gold for the origins of Jack Mallone.
Our group has 3 players, so NPC companions are very common. Our last big campaign was Savage Worlds post-apocalyptic and the players got to run various NPCs who joined their party, divvying them up as they liked. The current campaign is 5e (which we find insufficiently challenging but wanted to give it a full try), I am running the NPCs. I think immersion can be helped by playing only one character, and even though I roll the dice and play the characters according to pre-set values, the players are the leaders of the group and make all of the decisions.
The next campaign (that I run, as another in the group will be running Morrow Project next) will probably be Symbaroum system and stick to the NPCs being run by me (usually hirelings), but with a hardcore difficulty, fairly common player character death, and more of an association with the adventuring company than specific characters. Of course if a character can actually last for a while, I expect the immersion to be high... even higher than games where the players are practically immortal like 5e.
How to combine real risk and rewarding real skill with (meaning imminent death from mistakes), without getting frustrating from restarts, seems to be among the most important things to get right for immersion.
I enjoy running companion NPCs with the party, and find that they can add a lot if it's all done in good spirits and without any desire to have an NPC shine over the PCs. I usually end up being the DM, so it's fun to still have a consistent character who can engage with the PCs. However, it's really important that it's always understood that the NPC is a supporting character, never an active, driving force. They can help and contribute (which is actually really useful if your group is smaller and needs additional hands, like mine often is), but they should never actually be the ones to make decisions about what to do or how to proceed. They're companions, people who support and follow.
Our group has an explicit understanding that the NPCs that hang out with them will not take the lead. Even if they voice general feelings about the issue ("Oh man, I have a bad feeling about this place..."), it's understood that this is just portraying the general personality of the character and providing some color, never an indicator that this NPC is going to try and prevent something from happening. In the event that an NPC ends up having to act independent, a player takes the reins and controls them.
Basically, players usually don't mind having a pair of helping hands who has something to say about situations, as long as they don't feel that their leading role is being taken.
Jack is my hero. and if he is a drunk and a loser, then so am I
10:10 My solution for this, is to come up with a specific item that NPC wants in return for their help.
For example, if the goal was to kill Smoughi the Green dragon and plunder it's treasure and the party needed to hire a seafarer to baot them to it's dragon island, I would say the NPC wants a specific necklace in exchange for this service.
Makes the World feel more involved and the party can decide if they want to cheat or oblige the NPC
Thank you for these vids. I love them Seth. So good. Anyway i am watching it now.
Another great video! Seth, you come across (sincerely) as a gestalt of all the most knowledgeable and experienced gamers I've ever shared a table with. Whenever somebody asks me a complicated but interesting gaming concept if I don't have the time or even if I do I point them your way.
Also ... during this time of isolation having your videos to feed my gaming addiction has been very therapeutic. Thank You! Live Long and Prosper!
For me, the best use of NPC/DMPCs is to assist players during first 1 or 2 sessions of the game. Some official D&D campaigns have pretty harsh introductory adventures which can lead to TPK, especially if players are not that experienced. Giving them such a helping hand might be the difference between "What a fun game!" and "I'll never play D&D again". Of course, these NPC/DMPCs leave the party for some reason or another - they may be killed during the last fight of the introductory section, they can refuse to travel to another location because of reasons, etc.
I keep having my players draft interesting NPCs into their party so now I hand over the character at that point to the interested player. Currently, I have one player with two-player characters that she created herself. The others each have one-self rolled character and one NPC they yanked off of me. It's a little odd.
I love your videos. This one is particularly relevant to a campaign that I run. Your a wonderful resource.
Ah man such an amazing video! I once had an NPC that was a cook that was able to give slight resistances to the environments if the adventurers brought special foods and ingredients. The imagination is the limit for just about any companion.
Just about to have a companion in my campaign! This was perfect timing!
I laughed out loud at "I think I just described the Star Wars plots".
Great advice!
When I'm running a game, my NPCs (for fun) tend to give the worst advice :-). Unless, of course, they are really stuck and then the NPC will give a clue instead of outright telling them what to do.
In my 7th Sea game, since his character was MIA for a spell, my husband played one of the NPCs -- a scoundrel who was only with the PCs because they were responsible for getting his best friend kidnapped by a mutual Big Bad Guy. As insurance, the hubby "borrowed" the party mascot (a baby goat), thinking I (as Evil GM) wouldn't risk hurting such a cute animal in order to get to him.
He thought wrong.
Said NPC came back as a ghost to bug the party later on -- again played by the Hubby.
So, was the goat secretly a mimic?
In my Rogue Trader campaign, I have an Inquisitor, Azakir Halgriv of the Ordo Xenos, working with the Explorers. He is an Ascension level and so he's so much stronger than the PCs and I feel he's a great character, the PCs like him they spent pretty much an entire session helping him mend his relationship he fucked up with his lover/Interrogator: Rhia Venris. It helps he's willing to co-operate and even be working under the PCs rather than using his authority (It's their ship after all) But having him working with him is a bit of a double-edged sword, having him with them has inspired some amazing Roleplaying by the PCs, one part where one of them (a woman, both in character and out) gave him relationship advice was one of the best RPing I've ever seen, also I like the fact that the PCs can see how powerful they potentially can eventually be, but I've been trying hard to encourage some inner party RPing and I feel Azakir has discouraged that a bit, although they have done inner-party RPing about him on a few occasions. But they know how strong he is and make him tag along with them as much as possible and I've had to think out of the box to make sure he a) doesn't make the combat a cakewalk and b) steal the limelight. It helps he rathers to work alone, in a big battle I ran he went all Sly Marbo, going solo behind enemy lines, wreaking havoc far away from the PCs skirmishes and not taking command. I have also segregated his combat from there's when they're fighting with him, not even rolling it as it'll slow down combat to a crawl. That's how I can show how competent he is as a combatant without stealing the limelight.
One time when they were exploring an abandoned ship I split the PCs and him, as they began their search from one end and Azakir and a squad of Storm Troopers from the other end. When the inevitable zombies attacked (It was a module) I had the PCs do the work of taking down the zombie leader thing which took them a good few hours searching the ship for answers as Azakir and his Storm Troopers were attacked by an endless horde of zombie things. By the time the PCs managed to stop the zombies, just before they finally managed to overwhelm Azakir and one Storm Trooper who were the only ones left alive (another NPC named Darrenisk who's a demolition expert who the PCs like a lot as he's done a couple of missions with them) An utterly exhausted Azakir approached them thanking them profusely for saving him, so I put him in a position to not only be saved by the PCs (It'd be the second time they saved his ass) But also not to diminish his skill as a fighter.
The epilogue was amazing. Love your channel.
Our players have companion hirelings (animals/beings that have become their loyal followers after completing a module (reward)).
The players roll two attack die (2d20), one for the player, and the lighter colored die for their companion. They enjoy it, so I obviously allow it and just add flavor after their rolls).
So far, the NPCs have been very loyal, and the players treat the companions like their own dogs, with love and compassion, even splurging for extra and exotic foodstuffs, and beddings.
Great vid. I had smaller groups so I had one or two NPCs become an important part of the group, so when they do die it has impact. Or because of falling out becomes a threat or obstacle. I haven't been able to roll play in a few years, I am looking forward to more of your RP stories down the line.
Hi Seth! I just finished Ashes of Onyx. (Review left on Amazon) I thoroughly enjoyed the book. Very impressive. I know it was just published, but is there another book in the works?
Great to hear. And thank you very much for the review. I have some ideas for a sequel book, but it depends on how well Ashes of Onyx sells. If it's received well, then I'll likely write a Book 2. Otherwise, it's a standalone.
Damn, Seth. I love your videos! Thanks so much for the effort to create this content and sharing it with us!
I'm actually rather fond of strong supporting cast in my games. For one it helps me talk to the PCs . I'm very careful, however, not to let important NPCs become "voice of the DM". They have goals themselves and the PCs can certainly dismiss them or they leave if the goals become contrary. They can be wrong.
I often have a substantial number of possible supporting cast but have a meta-rule that only one can be around at a time in the party. One long running game has the PCs as the leaders of a now planar mercenary and trading group, so they have several pretty heavy hitters. Most are, however, busy with various goals.
One way to help prevent true "GM PCs" is to not give them a meta-currency, if the game has one. For example, if the game has inspiration, Action Points, or whatever, don't give them to the NPCs. They may have full on stats and level and even a key role to play in the game, ideally as a support character or doing something that the PCs aren't super interested in, but they don't have that je ne sais quoi.
I use a dmpc to balance out the party’s combat abilities (it’s just me and my two brothers) and I make sure he’s always passive and there for comic relief mostly. In combat I have my two players role to decide who he attacks.
I've run a GMPC a couple of times, though happily mine seem to usually end up a lot more like your companion NPCs: when I offered to retire one my players actually asked me to keep him in. I've also played in games where an NPC started to feel a lot like a GMPC.
I think what you're really talking about is that spotlight, not the GMPC per se, so how about this: every GM wants to be an agent in the world that they're creating. When they hang this desire on a feature of the environment or plot it gets called railroading; when it hangs on a character or monster it gets called a GMPC.
Either way it sucks the fun out of the game because the more agency the GM's avatar in the game has, the less agency the players have.
I always really enjoy your Running RPGs videos.
I think during a live stream you briefly touched the topic on how to avoid becoming snobbish as a dm. I'd love to see a video about that.
This here might be one of the most divisive topics you've ever covered. The GMPC gets a bad rap because of DMs that make them several levels higher and steal the spotlight from their characters. But here's the thing... all my NPCs are GMPCs. The villain, the mentor, the guards, the townsfolk, and yes, the companions.
I turn my brain off GM mode and put it in PC mode most of the time when I play out the NPC. That helps make them vibrant. But just like when I play a PC and have OOC knowledge I don't metagame. I have played a PC and have been Chewbacca when he sets off the trap because it is what my character would do. Of course, it agitates the players LESS when it is an NPC doing it than when it is a fellow PC.
By treating all my NPCs like they were a PC I am playing it forces me to give thought and weight to their actions, and when I play them it makes them more convincing that they are actual characters. Even if it is some cook with no class levels or the big bad evil guy.
But maybe I am bias on the topic. I play a lot of 1v1 tabletop. That is to say, just two people. A DM and a player. When it is just one player (or even two players) I can keep the challenge really low or I can throw in some NPC party members, and I prefer the later. It gives me a chance to roleplay something with them that isn't antagonistic and give them back up, help cover their weaknesses.
I'll throw in a big dumb fighter to shield the wizard or rogue character from damage.
If they play the big dumb fighter I will throw in a rogue to watch their back or a cleric to keep them healed up.
This gives me a little breathing room on what kind of challenges I can throw in, like you said, but with just one PC it becomes even more important.
Of course, I could just let the player play more than one character. I actually enjoy that one, both as the person controlling the PCs and the DM. Playing characters interacting with each other can get away with you though, especially in text based games where you can write something as long as this post just expressing what all the PCs you are playing are doing- and PC input is way more important than NPC input so it can be necessary.
Goddamn I love your videos man, it helped me so much with GMing CoC. I’m starting a campaign tomorrow and am always watching your videos beforehand
Good luck with the campaign.
This is exactly what ive been looking for! My npcs always seem to fall flat and ive been wondering why! Never stop making videos!
Any time somebody brings up DMPCs I think of my first game of DnD.
I started playing DnD (5e) in 2017 and I was the DM because I wanted to play but I was the only one who had the books and everyone else just wanted to play anyways. I had a couple of players who were new to 5e but had played ADnD before and they pushed for me to make a DMPC because their old DM had one. I agreed because I didn't know any better and I actually had the opposite problem from as what people talk about with DMPCs. And so Zevan the half elf rogue was born. I actively tried to make sure everyone else had a chance to do things because I felt weird roleplaying off of myself and as a result Zevan never really said or did anything interesting other than banter with the PCs and give exposition. The end result was me feeling unsatisfied with my glorified henchmen PC in an otherwise fun game. I started trying to kill off Zevan without putting the party in a position to be TPKd so that I could just focus on DMing. However, my players still saw Zevan as their friend and a member of the party so they would always save him and then playfully mock him later for being useless. Eventually I just decided enough was enough and told my players Zevan was officially just an NPC. My players were completely unphased by my declaration and I realized I had been stressing myself out for no reason. My enjoyment of the game increased dramatically after that. It was shortly after this point I started watching DnD youtubers and saw all the videos about why DMPCs are bad. Basically everything I was actively trying not to do and stressing out over because I thought I had to have a DMPC.
I have a GMPC/NPC right now. It was my PC, when I had to take a break from GMing and a friend took over the gaming sessions and is turned to a NPC since then. But I really like your thoughts about the topic. Very well made video, and even if you are not satisfied by the standard of the script, it felt really well structured and was easy to follow!
8:36
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything introduces the Sidekicks system to D&D 5e in an elegant way. In regards to XP, the sidekicks level up when the average of the player levels go up.
I had a GMPC in a huge game
Like 10 players (drop in drop out) everyone was rogue or fighter rogue or an artificer or artificer wizard
I GMPCd a barbarian
He was mostly useless to everyone outside of combat
(Until one of the artificers figured out he had been slowly teaching himself crafting to make better gifts and was at minimum a decent apprentice and at best a savant craftsman)
he had an int of like 4 and no charisma because he was an orc
he was a genuine and kind character who would make special meals and drinks and gifts and had one character trait
Unwavering
Dog like Loyalty
He started out as combat
And as his usefulness there wavered (cross classes becoming more common/Magical Synergy etc etc) He transitioned into being
An extra tool check with a lower proficiency if the artificer was making something and needed a second chance to roll
Id be remiss to call him an npc though because I was ALWAYS with the party if someone got downed Id sweep in to try to save the encounter (lost like 3 encounters as him though because he leveled with the party)
If you failed a check "heres stonetooths dice man good luck" if you slipped and fell stonetooth rolled to pick you up
But he was also beloved
And protected
Ferociously
by the artificers
So I know my only experience with a DMPC was positive and my players still talk about stonetooth sometimes
Hey Seth, I don't know how, but even if I'm always watching your videos I just realized that you launched a Patreon a couple months ago! I really think you should upload a video about it, I subscribed as soon as I found out, and I'm sure there are many others like me, who don't know about the Patreon. All the best from Chile
Hey Felipe. I finally had enough people telling me to get one that I finally acquiesced. I don't do much with it. Since I'm a 1-man show, spending time making backer rewards or content would detract with time to do videos. I should put something together soon for my awesome backers.
@@SSkorkowsky even if you don't offer anything extra (although those BTS pics and posts are awesome) I'm sure lots of people would at least pay $1, just to thank you for all the work you've done and the fun you've provided us through the years. Don't be shy Seth! And BTW, I work doing videos for a living so I know all the work you put behind every upload.
Finally, I'd love to hear you impressions on "Alone Against the Dark", since I think I'll play it one of these quarentene days. Cheers
@@SSkorkowsky An idea that would not detract from your video making time at all...give your patreons early access to your videos. :P
I’ve been putting all my NPC party members as authority figures. Haven’t even thought about making them an equal or underling. Thanks!
One possible problem with companions I noticed in a group where I play (heavily leans into the "don't steal the spotlight" point): My girldfriend played a healer/buffer/combat shaman, and we had an NPC cleric (a child, by the way, but somehow most of the group were fine dragging him into dungeons and whatnot because he was quite attached and one of the PCs is his custodian). Now sincy my gf is a hardcore introvert, she didn't make much of an impression. And - now the catchpoint - the other players went to the NPC for healing exclusively. Despite said NPC being a solid deal weaker at it; afaik, he was originally designed to be both a storyhook as well as an emergency healer in case noone rolled one. (It got to the point where they were queueing in front of the NPC, and she just stood there, silently musing why even with waiting times, noone considered asking the actual PC healer.)
My recommendation: For GMs who have companion NPCs, either have them fill a role that none of the players have, or subtly redirect requests for the shared speciality towards the PC, especially with more silent players. Alternatively have the NPC be active themselves, but a friend of one more of the silent players to engage them.
As usual, plenty of points to ponder and good advise. Thanks, Seth
I have a semi-companion character currently who is close to being integrated with the party by the events of the story, and this is conveniently lining up with a new player joining. They have a pre-built character they can slide into and they get to reveal this person's big secret on their own, giving both them and the other players a lot of reward for their past endeavors and kicking off the next story arc. I'm glad I shook off my fear of using companion characters; I used to think it would automatically devolve into me trying to lead the party or vicariously insert my own player character into the group, but I should've trusted myself more on that front.
For Pathfinder/DnD3.5, regarding NPCs and XP, depends on their status. Hirelings/Followers specifically do not receive XP as they do not level, while Cohorts do receive XP but it is not a share of what the players receive, rather they receive a separate percentage based on your character level and the XP you just received. So anything that does receive XP is either a PC or a DMC, the latter of which should be used very carefully.
Other systems may operate differently, but if you want your players to use NPCs, it is generally a good idea to not punish them for doing so.
Case in point. It flat out defeats the point of letting your PCs bring along NPCs if you're just going to increase the difficulty of the encounter, and can be frankly dickish if they spent time and/or resources scouting the area, doubly so if you don't then increase the payout in response. Honestly if you have a specific difficulty in mind for a given encounter... don't let them bring NPCs, simple as that.
Or better yet don't think in terms of difficulty but rather authenticity or enjoyment. Would they have more fun if they encountered more enemies as a direct result of attempting to make things easier for themselves? The answer is almost always, no.
Now if they fuck up scouting, then sure increase the difficulty as the enemy have a legitimate reason to respond to. But don't then immediately scale it up to their response if your players then decide to increase the number of NPCs they bring along. Or if you absolutely must, which you never do, then give them a chance to spot your spy who followed them back and possibly prevent any further escalation.
I actually just hit the climax with an NPC companion, a Jedi Master who was teaching one of my PC's. He was pretty much the guy that lead the party because most of the players like to go for a "Stoic" approach. They relied heavily on the Oskla, who took them planet to planet under orders from another Jedi Master. Eventually, Oskla found out that the other Jedi Master who gave them their missions betrayed them and was using it to find an ancient weapon. Oskla, had half the PC's go off and confront the evil Master, and he and the other half went to find the weapon.
However, in a twist, that none of my players really saw coming cause Oskla was such a generally good guy, he revealed himself to be the "Evil" master, to the players he brought with him. Explaining that these were the only PC's he could tolerate as the others were pretty much the guys that never talked or were borderline murder hobo's. He, sort of surprising even me, convinced the half he brought with him to join him. Even after revealing that he'd sabotaged the cruiser the other party was going to, and was gonna blow that thing up.
It was a pretty good session, and all the players surprisingly weren't too angry, and kinda rolled with it.