Jonathan Pageau REACTS To Voddie Baucham's Take On THE CHOSEN?
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- Jonathan Pageau REACTS To Voddie Baucham's Take On THE CHOSEN?
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I would like to know your opinion on something. In season 2 episode 2 (Two by Two). A character says "love is love". Does this concern you?
@@ThePennySaversit concerns me my good man or woman and if we look to the bible we see it concerns God too.
1st John Chapter 2
15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father d is not in them. 16For everything in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
@@ThePennySavers the truth is love is truly love...... The lbgtabcd twist it to suit themselves. A car is a car, a bus is a bus, and love is love....... They merely replaced lust with love. Lust is love..... That is what they mean by love is love
The chosen got me to open the Bible and go from agnostic to Christian.
Hallelujah!
let’s go. praise God.
I understand Jesus and for the first time his disciples because of the chosen and white watching the series I read the gospels.
I then started to understand the gospels on a much deeper level.
Thank you Jesus 🙏 ✝️
No. If you truly felt the desire to read Gods word then that was a move of the Holy Spirit.
@@martynjukes482 I agree with you, but it didn’t happen while watching something else. Therefore the Chosen was used by the Holy Spirit.
Watching clips on Instagram of The Chosen is what piqued my husband’s curiosity and interest in Christianity. He always had a “Hollywood view” of Christ, that is to say, a “hippy” version of Him, and my husband is definitely not about that. He believes that to be a form of weakness. But seeing how Jesus was portrayed in The Chosen, rebelling against the religious leaders and going against the grain, my husband was shocked. I remember him asking excitedly as he showed me a clip, “Is this true?! Show me this in the Bible!” And we read it in the Bible. Now he is saved, praise the Lord!❤
Praise the Lord , indeed!
praise the Lord!!! amazing news, so happy for you
That’s amazing. I am so happy for both of you!
I love that but let me offer you a peace of wisdom. How tied is your husband to the character on that screen that saved his life. What would happen if God forbid the pressure of acting pushes him to do evil things in secret and in the open? Would his view be effected or unchallenged? If he properly understands the gospel fresh from the pages themselves than this wisdom doesn’t concern you
Christ is Risen ☦️
Indeed He is Risen! ☦️
Truly he is risen
Glorify Him!🙌
@alka5742 Patriarchal cross I believe. It’s a Christian symbol. Orthodox Christianity. Quick google search my friend you’ll find what you need. God bless 🙏
Truly He is Risen! ☦️
Icon vs. idol. That sounds like a good topic to preach. Similar to the woman who touched Jesus’ garment and was instantly healed. Because of her faith in Christ she was healed, not because of His Garment. So many people today think it was the garment itself but in the end, its always because of Him ❤
Even if it was an icon in the catholic or orthodox sense Protestants still largely see icons as idols. As a Protestant I don't understand the instant idol accusation myself. It's a brilliant series bringing more folks to God.
Nobody thinks it’s the garment bro , I’m Catholic , have friends of every denomination, nobody thinks it’s the garment .
Also, when he went to Nazareth, they did not believe so he couldn’t perform as many miracles. Not that he wouldn’t. He couldn’t. Through our faith in Jesus do we become the miracle.
@@captainnoobface1124 I believe It's essentially one of the few topics that could help in knitting us together as the body of Christ, regardless if you're an Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant. This is so good. I was born Catholic but now converted as a Protestant/Evangelical and I remember that the topic of "idolatry" always pushed me away further from knowing the truth because of how Protestants can sometimes be judgmental and so critical about it.
@@fyre8011u r clearly deceived
All the people hating on the chosen and it’s lead me to read the Bible as I was far far away from it.
Good, now you don't need TV to tell you who Jesus is anymore.
This can be backed up with scripture too with the example of the bronze serpent. God told Moses to make it so that it can help people, but later on in the book of 2 kings we see Hezekiah break the snake because people would bow before the snake and burn incense to the snake. This shows how we can have images that help us but if we start to build a sense of duty towards that’s icon then it immediately becomes idolatry
YES!
Amen. Catholic Church is true church. Protestants false
If you ignore the graven images portion.
Pagaeu has helped me understand the Bible and God better, and has corrected my misunderstanding of the Orthodox Church ❤
Amen if we don't respect and venerate saints we will worship and respect evil stars celebrity's that aren't holy. Amen Protestants need this fact truth reality way in their life.
So wonderful to see Jonathan getting shared with a wider and wider audience!
I am an artist and a Christian and I am listening to this for the second time because I think Jonathan Pageau gives the one of the best explanations of idolatry that I've heard. I've always felt very alone as an artist in the Protestant tradition. I really appreciate the way Orthodox Christians accept Imagery as healthy part of worship. Good discussion and great content. I'm a new subscriber.
“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”
Colossians 1:15
Lol. That's Christ Himself... not a guy playing Jesus...
Let's leave The Chosen alone. To those who have ears, let them hear. To those who have brains, think for yourself.
Yeah bc we make all the right choices 🤣
Yeah, men thinking has worked out well so far! Why present what God says when we can make it more palpable and easier to swallow. The fact is, that the chosen is more entertaining and relatable than the Bible and without Dallas Jenkins and His team most of us would still not even look at the Word of God. There are corporations that help keep things that are dated relevant let Dallas do the same here. He says its art anyways, its not like people are referring to this as the truth. Some people say watching this show will make you think of the chosen actor when we pray to jesus or read about Him but thats ridiculous. This show is what Christianity needed. A little refresh. Right guys!?
If you read this and were like "yeah that's right!" Please keep reading your Bible and pray. After posting it i felt bad when I saw the response agreeing with it because it was posted in absolute sarcasm,this how ever is not.
If any man thinks they can improve on upon the Word of God they do not truly know who God is. If any man genuinely thinks they know better than the maker and ruler of everything. They are absolutely wrong.
Love you all
@@83mliz Except they are. That is a flat lie. People are looking at Roumie as if he really is Jesus. People say that over and over. They replace The Bible, GODS WORD, with the blurred, distorted version that is The Chosen. THAT is the problem. THAT is what Voddie is talking about. The Bible doesn't need updating. It needs people with open hearts and open minds to read it, study it, learn it, practice Exegesis and most important of all, know the Living One True God through Jesus Christ. THAT is what is important. Not getting "more people" to believe in a false version of God. A false God is not God and is Demonic. Do you see the problem here? Instead of bringing people to God its bringing people to a CULT of PERSONALITY.
@@83mliz well said. A friend of mine is a writer on the show and we grew up in the same church with similar doctrinal standpoints. Strong man that is chasing Christ. They want to just tell the story so JESUS can save the world. Much love fam in Jesus!
@@ryanflanigan298 can you ask him why in season 2 episode 2 title Two by Two a character says "love is love"?
I LOVE the pageau-ruslan combo. I LOVE that
Me too!
Yes they bounce off each other well
I dig it
Wow, what a fun conversation! You two are clearly fast friends and are such wonderful role models for how to talk with our Christian brothers and sisters! This conversation added joy to my day! Thank you ❤
Yes, I loved seeing these two creative Christians come together for an educational, entertaining convo! I hope Jonathan drops by again.
Personally got to watch 7 people watch the chosen; give their lives to christ and now 6 of them are serving in ministry. 4 of those people were ex heroin attics. Yeah, I don't question it anymore. God uses all sorts of media/people/dreams/ shows/music to connect with him.
Amen
Amen
This was a really great video! I love the message here, especially Pageau saying Christ being crucified was perfection in our world. Great job, y'all!
Bruh this was a deep convo 🙏🏾❤️🔥
"When Perfection manifested itself in the world, we crucified it." Let us all keep that in mind during the Lenten season.
What was said about icons vs idols is excellent. The churches who rely on them should take this into account-calling the icons on the wall foolishness if they don't communicate something transcendent.
(Catholics) my wife and I recently re-watched the first episode of the Chosen... we burst out in tears when Jesus came to Mary Magdalen... the first time we didn't weep that much... but it was the growth of our relationship with Him that impacted...
I think Jonathan Pageu is one of the greates minds of this time even thou he doesn´t know it, ha. Mr. Pageau opened up so many layers of thinking that I am eternally grateful with him. Salutes from a catholic praising eastern ortodox in a protestant channel visit frequently btw.
I love seeing believers recognize each other across the barriers of their traditions. Some day the walls between us will all be done away with. Lord come soon. We need you.
My stance before I watch this video. God gave us an image of Himself when He took on flesh and walked amongst us. Icons don't replace Him. They point us towards Him.
A false image
@eyemmeohigho Says a freemason heretic.
@@eyemmeohigho whats wrong with Orthodox icons of Christ?
@@eyemmeohigho a true image
@@Thedisciplemike 😘
Amen!!! Thanks for having him. He shared a lot of wisdom
I don’t care what anyone has to say, tbh. Watching The Chosen got me reading my Bible more and then I started actually getting plugged into a church. When I’m talking to Jesus, I’m not picturing Jonathan Roumie lol what I won’t ever understand is why is just this series that gets all the hate? What about all the other depictions of Jesus? The Passion of The Christ is everyone’s favorite, right? How is that any different at all? Stop with this foolishness. The church is so busy arguing with each other, no one’s out being the hands and feet of Christ!
Sincere Q: Where in the Bible does it claim God needs us to be His hands and feet? I know the AA song, but is it Biblical? Please cite scripture. Thank you
@@THEEArmoredSaint He doesn’t need us, but He includes us. But the Bible tells us countless that we are to love the broken, the down-trodden, those who have yet to experienced the love of Christ, and that by us doing so, they will come to know God. Several times it says that. You’re playing a semantics game, and it’s really kinda gross.
Matthew 25:34-40, Matthew 5:16, Titus 3:14, 1 Peter 4:10-11, James 1:27. Takes about two seconds in google, and not very much longer to read the surrounding verses for context. It might not say the exact words “be His hands and His feet” but that is precisely what is being described throughout scripture. Thank you.
Brilliant.
More!
Enjoy you two together
God bless you both!
Jonathan’s clarity is so reassuring.
When you sit down with your kids one day, and look at an old album, you will find a picture of their grandfather and tell them: "This is your grandfather". Now here comes the question: Does anyone looking at that picture really believe that the picture itself is the grandfather? OR is it what the picture represents? And if the kids kiss the picture, are they now kissing their literal grandfather or venerating their beloved grandfather represented in the picture?
Grandfather isn't God, and a picture isn't the same thing as an artistic representation of God Almighty. Which could very easily look nothing like what the real person looked like, and that is the image you are putting in your head and proceeding to worship under. IE: False God. Idol. A Graven Image.
@@OpenMawProductions So by your logic Michelangelo's Creation of Adam is actually God's hand, so he should not have painted it? Just in case someone MIGHT worship IT instead of God??
@@atyt11yeah the anti Christian art stance is just not good. If you only read scripture you will create an image in your head about what God or Jesus would look like and you would maybe think of that image while worshipping. It’s expressing our understanding of who God is and what it may look like. Art also lets us express our emotion about something without being perfectly accurate. Fiction is supposed to be true in that it uses made up things to express truth. The world responds to art more than almost any other medium and if art brings you to a better understanding or desire to know God then that is incredibly valuable and in no way an idol.
@@OpenMawProductions By that reasoning, the actual person of the Christ is an idol.
@@jasoncain9602 Yes, well said. People have different love languages and are effected differently by visual art, music, painting etc... God created it all. It can be used for his glory, but some will still choose to worship the creation and not the Creator. The icon vs Idol discusion on this video is very well argued.✌✌
Often its not that "that song becomes an idol", but that our creativity becomes the idol
Was David's creativity an idol? I'm not so sure.
This is the subjectivity of your personal interpretation. Your personal interpretation is not doctrine.
@@Musashination Neither is yours, so its a wash. Doesn't matter what opinion is. It matters what God's word says.
So just to help you understand my comment, at no point am I saying creativity is an idol, but in response to Ruslan's comment about how a song can become an idol, I was merely adding that so too can our own sense of giftedness be an idol.
Music usually is about earthly things and about flesh, that's not christian.
I would love to hear Voddie Baucham’s response to your or Dallas Jenkins’ explanation to how it’s NOT idolatry. ❤
I think Voddie would knock it out of the park.
@@InHisImage999 WITHOUT Voddie strawmanning and redefining terms?? doubt it. Please do not take this personal and I don't say this lightly, Anyone who thinks infants are evil must have a couple of screws loose. I love 95% of what J. MaCarthur preaches too, but IMO determinism is just not rationally tenable. ✌✌
@@InHisImage999 Baucham is wrong on the nature of the second commandment, but he’s right about one thing: the doey-eyed, “needy boyfriend” Jesus has got to go.
@@atyt11don’t just make that claim with proving it. Regardless, he is a brother in Christ. Are the foundational tenets of Christianity compromised when Voddie preaches? We all make mistakes but I understand his position on the 2nd commandment. Also, what Christian denominations advised on the Chosen? What impact does that have if the advisement is wrong?
@@tramainebass3371 We all are wrong on some things, but basic christianity is available to all.......
"Surrender your will and believe" Sorry, but Voddie does not believe that.
If you don't like the way the Chosen has decided to share the gosple,
then go and start your own video show and tell the world of Good's love.
God's Love is unmeasurable and far more impressive than a man's view of His sovereignty.
I appreciate jonathan mentioning that the Bible can be an idol. I feel like that is something I have seen many Christians do but I've never heard it actually articulated before
Yes same!!
The bible doesn't fit the biblical definition of idols. People who don't like to adhere to the rule of scriptures, often make that argument though.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Reading God's word is one way to worship God. If you see the Bible as merely a book, only then it could be an idol. But the substance behind it is directly connected to God. "The word WAS God." No one sees the pages as something to worship.
@@hyzenthlay713That verse is referencing Christ not scripture.
@@hyzenthlay713 this interpretation of that verse is idolatrous. You dont know what idolatry means, so you've just come up with your own interpretation.
So many gems in this, I feel like I will have to watch it another couple of times.
Love this discusion, Very well defended. Thank you for your words. Way too much energy is put into telling brothers and sisters why they should not preach Christ the way they do. I've seen God change lives in so many amazing, crazy ways. People need to get busy doing their own ministry and stop telling others how they are doing it wrong.✌✌
Great discussion! Thanks for sharing this! 👍😎
WOW!!! This was insightful and illuminating from Jonathan Pageau on the differences between icons and idols.
Thank you. God bless. Enjoyed this discussion.
I was wondering why he was stuck on this show and then I heard him say "...that my friend create on." and now it makes sense.
people pleaser?
Stuck on the show? It’s a good show
@@jasoncain9602 I mean I'm really not even a fan of the show, however a TV show is not by virtue of existing "idolatry" lol, as Ruslan would say "that's goofy"
I remember my church as a kid used to do plays to me it’s the same
THIS IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT VIDEO !!!!!!! ❤❤❤❤
I believe Romans 1:20-23 sums it up beautifully. That God uses creation to reveal *His* invisible qualities *point towards* Him. Not to worship creation, but leads us to be in awe of the reality of The Creator. His intellect, Power. Personal God. For He must be personal in nature to * want* to create. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 8:45-9:30
Amen
Well said. I was thinking the same thing, when people think God needs man to represent Him as if He has not.
He brings up “the performative contradiction” of a pastor’s image, telling you not to create an image to bow down and worship. That is not a contradiction, performative or otherwise. Yes, he is telling me through an “image”. But his image on the screen is not an object of worship. It is the image which becomes an object of worship that is forbidden. Not images in general. So talking about a “performative contradiction.” is just nonsense trying to sound intelligent.
This is not a contradiction, because what the pastor was criticizing (the image of Christ in the Chosen) is also not an object of worship.
I love The Chosen. It is a great vehicle to give people a glimpse of what it might have been like for the disciples to meet Him Who is God.
This is an important argument to understand the difference between idols and icons. Great job! Moses built the bronze serpent out of obedience because God instructed him to, and the people who looked on it were healed. However, King Hezekiah later destroyed it because the people began to worship the object and calling it "The Great Serpent" believing they were being healed by the brass statue itself and not by faith and obedience to God This is often times a mirror of Christians today who look at a cross that was created by someone as more than just a symbol that we use to remember the sacrifice Yeshua gave for our sins. We sometimes believe the object itself has some sort of mystical or spiritual power, and holding it up before demons or "Dracula" will somehow make them run away. When we see it that way, it becomes the idol God forbids use to make in the 2nd commandment.
Semi sorta off topic, but also sorta on topic (in not all but many of the vampire stories etc the cross thing won't work on them UNLESS you actually have faith)
@@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 you're right. I didn't say it but that is what I meant.
@@IAMORALANDUS indeed.
(My great great grandfather actually wrote that book btw lol) but yes someone can make an idol of anything, but that's a "them issue" , it doesn't make the object an idol just by virtue of existence. (As many people are arguing here) and a TV show/play depicting a story /event simply does not fit any occasion or description of idolatry given anywhere in the Bible. So despite any theological disagreement etc , to call a TV show idolatry is extremely ignorant. And most certainly not correct. And I actually like voddie tbh, but it is what it is lol
@@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 Are you referring to Bram Stroker? That's awesome! I got one better, two of my great grandfathers 23 and 24 generations removed, are the two kings depicted in the movie Braveheart..."Longshanks" Edward Plantagenet the 1st and "The Outlaw King" Robert The Bruce. How that happened is a very interesting story all in itself. From England and Scotland to Africa and somehow we are family! I also like Pastor Voddie Baucham, but I have a different opinion than his about the Chosen. I am a admirer of the show and I've watched every episode of seasons 1-3 multiple times, but I get his answer. "We must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling," so what may he may see as a temptation to idolize something may not be tempting to others. Just like the Bronze Serpent. When Moses built it, the people obeyed God and were healed out of their obedience, but in the time of King Hezekiah, the people were tempted and gave in to the temptation of making it their idol. The object didn't change but the response did which made it sinful. If we idolize the Character played by Jonathan Roumie as "Yeshua" then it is breaking the 2nd commandment, but those who do not and just see him as an actor and the role of Yeshua as simply someone's depiction then it is simply fantasy and neither idol nor icon because we surely aren't venerating Jonathan Roumie. I have an personal opinion or interpretation of whether Idols or Icons are actually two different things, but I am not God and I can not hold others to my own interpretations.
@@IAMORALANDUS yes I am lol
And yeah the TV show itself by virtue of existence is not an idol, and simply watching a TV show isn't idolatry. (Also on a side note I'm almost certain I built and installed stained glass windows and the pews in voddies church lol. And by his same standard here those too would be idols
I think I need to remember this, in my work and art career, I get tunnel vision focus at times when going after a goal so that can easily get into the realm of Idolatry
The understanding of “the honor paid to an image is paid to its prototype” is the basis of iconography.
Seraphim Hamilton has some great material on how this principle is actually laden in Scripture and can see it gradually becoming more and more prominent, as (like Pageau says) God reveals himself more and more.
Chosen is GREAT! Don’t really care what people say
Worshiping God through an image vs worshiping the image as God seems like a distinction without a difference. I could be missing something though. If the Israelites in the wilderness had bowed down in front of the calf and not to the calf, and said “Yahweh thank you for saving us, this calf reminds us of you”. I think Moses is still breaking tablets and God is still displeased.
How do you explain the Israelites getting healed by looking at a staff with a bronze snake that Moses made? I do agree that God never told them what He looked like, so they would have been foolish to attempt to image Yahweh.
Didn’t Aaron hold up the calf and say, “This is the Lord your God who led you out of Israel”? And then they worshipped the calf in the pagan way by ‘rising up to play’
The end left this Catholic completely stunned that it came out of an Orthodox brother.
"To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled."
This content is so great. Such a relief from all the other nasty stuff on social media. Thanks guys
I wonder if Voddie made the same stance when The Passion movie was made. Or if he has ever put a nativity scene in his home around Christmas. Or an angel on top of his tree. 🤔
As someone who is part of a church that preaches a strict version of the 2C, I can assure you that he has not. You may disagree with their view, but they are not hypocrites regarding it. My pastor has a nativity scene at his house, but Jesus is not present, just a pregnant Mary.
@@roberthughes9295 So it’s okay to depict Mary and not Jesus?
Yes, because Mary is not God. That is where the line is drawn in the vast majority of reformed theology today (and for most of its history outside of the Puritans). However, we would not venerate or pray to the icon/image of Mary but respect her for the saint that she is.@@rubykrueger2297
Out of curiosity have you actually watched his videos and his explanation? Because I never heard him deny any paintings or statues of Jesus. I've only heard him deny the milquetoast Jesus portrayed in media which is an Idol. Such as how modern Christian Rock portrays Jesus as a love struck boy who cannot go on without us when in reality he is perfectly self-sufficient and doesn't need anyone.
Seriously, either someone needs to point me to the right video or you all need to actually watch his videos...
how is this different from islam not allowing depictions of Mohammad? im genuinely asking.
9:19 icon points us to the image it is not the image
11:21
When we get fascinated with the action itself and not the purpose, that's when we start idolizing the action
The best thing about the Bible is that’s it’s sooooo flexible that you can use it to fit almost any narrative. What God wants vs what we want as far as the heavens are from the earth. Immeasurable. All of you please be careful.
They missed an important piece of the conversation IMHO. An important difference to look at, that was mentioned by Johnathon, regarding the cherubim and the serpent on the stake, is that God instructed the Israelites to make the cherubim. Not only that He (God) instructed them on how the “icon” was to be used. Same thing with the serpent. Its important to look at the 2nd commandment in context of the very next commandment. “Do not take the Lord’s name in vain.” This means you do not get to do your own thing in your own way and put a Jesus stamp on it and call it righteous. Take for example the golden calf. The Israelites were NOT instructed to make the calf. They did their own thing. They called the calf Yahweh (took the name in vain) and worshiped it. Ultimately it comes down to submission to authority. If God instructs you to form an “icon” then do it. And use it in the way that it is instructed to be used. DO NOT make for YOURSELF and idol/icon and use it in YOUR way of worship.
Thank you for this.
Top content!
We gotta like these videos more to push them on the algorithm 🙏🏽👏🏾🙌🏽
Yknow, I agree with basically everything brother Jonathan said....except his point on the Sabbath. I disagree with that because I dont think the point of Jesus being the fulfillment of the laws, means to do away with it. Jesus said if you love me, KEEP my commandments. He never said change, or do away with them, but to keep them. I think in that regard Jesus is saying we no longer are required to keep the commandments because we have to for our salvation. We keep them out of our love for Jesus. Im not saying we'll be perfect about, but that the things we do on Earth are a shadow of that in heaven.
The problem Voddie has is that the graven images were worshipped and people have reported imagining that actor when they pray and they’ve even come up to him on the streets and asked him to forgive them of their sins. To them he is their graven image. That is the issue Voddie has with it.
God's a Spirit, (Elohim) If his commandments order, then that means do it. The Ark of the Covenant is made by special instructions. God does what he wants because he's the creator of everything. We have no right to question his authority or challenge him. When he's the one who can stop our heat beat. He's the one to fear, we're alive because of his grace and mercy.
I appreciate the talk. Learned a lot about idolatry. Thank you
2:07 there is no performative contradiction there. A man talking on a video is bound by the laws of physics to be seen. He can't turn himself invisible.
If it were a still (photo), there'd be an "image." Even if there were an "Image" it wouldn't be idolatry since there is a debate/discussion going on and not *worship*
You can easily have iconography take the place of idolatry if it involved worship of the "icon" or worship where the icon must be employed. We can try semantics with man, but sophistry won't work with God Almighty.
You basically just made the same point as JP
Ok, I'll use Icons then to help in my worship to Jesus Christ
100%.
Straight away, this didn't seem right to me. Indeed this sounds like a lot of sophistry that distracts from what the basic meaning of idolatry is.
Good stuff
In Catholicism, “do not make graven images” is part of the “do not have other gods besides me. Do not bow down and worship them.”
Voddie is a smart man. His opinion holds weight with me. I don’t think he should be laughed off like Jonathan did. It would be nice if Voddie was invited on the show to defend his position.
Jonathan's perspectives have really challenged and added some depth to my former Fundamentalist lens
That's because you don't even know why you believed what you believed. Read Scripture.
Jonathan's perspective is Orthodox theology.
@@einarabelc5 That isn't necessarily true, as he just said he has added more depth and understanding to the core of his faith. Above scripture itself, look into Orthodoxy for a holistic approach.
@@einarabelc5 there are different levels of reading scripture. Fundamentalist is generally the first level which is a plain reading of the text. Next is where you see Jesus all throughout it, third level is where you see the patterns that arch throughout it. The vast majority of Christians start at the plain reading level, many of whom don't move beyond it.
Same here, he's a major reason to me being on the Journey of becoming Orhthodox 🙏🏾☦️
Excellent Clarification
Great video. Very beneficial. Praise Jesus
Woah, I loved this ❤
Jonathan's 'point' about Voddie 'creating an image of himself' while denouncing the creation of images is probably the least thoughtful thing I've ever heard him say. It was a very knee-jerk reaction and that's not his standard MO. Voddie's point was that the show was creating an image that represented the creator of the universe, a literal artistic rendering of an object of worship. Televising yourself in order to spread the gospel is not the same as dressing up as Jesus, saying His words, and broadcasting it to the world. I'm not saying it's idolatry, I'm just saying it's very, very clearly different.
Simple question to end this: If it is a sin to make an image of Jesus, did God sin by becoming human? Obviously not. Colossians 1:15.
Very well done gents! Glory to God
Just a point, in the Hebrew on the second commandment it mentions פסל and תמונה often translated as graven and image. פסל does mean something carved but תמונה comes from likeness, not necessarily image. I could be wrong here but the juxtaposition for me means a- must be carved, b- must by a likeness of something on earth and in heaven, and c- must be worshipped. The cherubim were not worshipped, nor the copper snake. That is where the issue is, are you looking on a statue to worship it or not?
At what point in this video do you actually deal with Voddie’s take? I don’t agree with Voddie’s strict interpretation of the 2nd commandment but this doesn’t address his actual position. I’d love to see you talk to him instead of about him!
Refer back to around the 2min mark. VB is referred to as the popular preacher claiming 2CV (2nd Commandment Violation) of the portrayal of Jesus.
He has another video where he responds to that.
“The world crucified perfection when it was manifested, so we should crucify our desire for perfection (in the sense of art)” … A bar🔥 12:20-12:38
WOW ❤ brilliant explanation...
The orthodox Church is a “factory for saints”.
We lift up His name, because there are multiple names such as Rafah and Jireh that speak to His specific attributes that work themselves into blessings in our lives....Psalms 103
Very interesting conversation here.
Jonathan went off in this one! Love this
Etched images, that’s an important distinction, an image with define edges. This speaks to me as saying don’t think you know everything about something, don’t look at something and think that’s a definite, that it will never change. As limited beings we can’t know everything about anything, especially given that everything changes.
Only way that this applies to physical images can is in how the person observing it, perceives it and interacts with it.
I’ve been back-and-forth on this issue. I’ve watched the Chosen and have enjoyed and appreciated it quite a lot. I think it is very well produced, acted and written. And I don’t think that it really intends to be a reenactment or replacement of scripture, so much as historical speculation and artistic license, and what the kids today call fanfiction, used to bring the audience into the world of first century Jerusalem during the time of Christ’s ministry, in order to get to know the people who surrounded Jesus . It’s a very interesting, entertaining and original way to bring attention to the Gospels. But there are moments both in the show and in the way the show is promoted, that I think overstep the boundary between fanfiction and historic speculation versus adding to scripture. One particular example just recently pops into my mind because I went back-and-forth in a comment thread over it with some fans of the show. Dallas Jenkins posted a quote on facebook from his script that said something to the effect of
“Hearts and bones will still break in this lifetime, but in the end, the light will overcome the darkness“- Jesus (the Chosen).
So he posts this quote, which is a line of dialogue from his show, as if it is a quote from the lips of Christ himself. And many many people jumped on to comment. “amen”, “truth!“, “Yes! Praise the Lord“ Showing me that most people did not realize that he’s not quoting from scripture, but just the dialogue of his own show. As if a quote from a television writer is just as powerful and authoritative as scripture. To me that is too close to the sin of adding to scripture. I realize that he included the parenthetical “from the chosen“ on his post in order to, I guess, clarify that it was from his show and not from the Bible, but the line was really too blurry for me. On the other hand, however, 90% of the show gets it right. The day-to-day lives of the followers of Christ during his ministry are incredibly relatable, and the idea of walking alongside them as they interact with our Lord is poignant and enlightening. As long as the points within the fictional stories, never transgress what’s actually in scripture and as long as the parts of the show that intersect with the scriptures are true to the word, I don’t have a problem with it. But there was one point in a dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus where Jenkins, in retelling that conversation, goes off track. In the show, Jesus says to Nicodemus, “look into your heart. What does it tell you?“ Not only did Jesus not say that in the scripture, there are a number of places in the Bible where we are warned that the heart is wicked and deceitful. So Jesus would probably have never told Nicodemus or anyone else to look into their heart to find truth.
Most of the time, the show does a really good job of staying in agreement with scripture as it conveys its speculations about things that might’ve been said, or things that could’ve taken place between the lines of the Holy Scriptures. But there are enough times, where they get it wrong, or blur the lines so much that it makes me want to caution people before watching it. Especially non-believers who might take what the Chosen has to say about the life of Christ as legitimate Christian doctrine.
My main gripe is that although I realize there needs to be some creative liberties taken to flesh out characters, dialogue, and even the events themselves - at times it seems they either alter something that actually *is* in the Sacred Scripture, brush it off, or omit it altogether. To me it's not necessarily a deal breaker but it sure is disappointing.
Amazing ❤
Image of God* not just an image.
I just saw a painter post a painting of Christ on FB. A protestant immediately quoted 2nd Commandment. Same protestant posted "images" on his own FB, but did not see contradiction...
I would love to hear Alex O'Connor's perspective of a season or more of The Chosen and hear his perspective on the portrayal of Jesus.
interesting conversation here but I think maybe a bigger issue with the chosen is the filling in of the gaps in the bible for television purposes because now you have an actor representing Jesus outside of his testimony
Ruslan should have Mike from True Christian Ministry on. He’s an ex Catholic and has the knowledge to be able to debate it.
This is DOPE.
The problem with The Chosen is not that there is someone playing Jesus on the screen it is the artistic freedom they choose to add to the Word of God. They depict Jesus in a way that is not represented in the Word of God. They put things in His mouth that He did not say. You always hear "the book is way better" its the same case with the Bible. Read the bible, its way better than any movie or show about God.
Someone forgot John 21:25
@@supergoji7511 I didn’t forget that, I actually love that we don’t know a fraction of the might things Jesus did because He is so great. But taking the liberty to think that Jesus had to have help from Matthew writing the sermon on the mount is absolutely ridiculous. Do you really think God needed to write down what He would say or that He needed help?
Dr Gavin Ortlund has a very intersting discussion regarding these topics , A former Orthodox priest (Schooping ) has a youtube discussing whether there is really a difference between Veneration and Adoration , its really worthwhile
There is no contradiction with the image of a pastor teaching that images used in worship is sin, as the pastor isn't being worshipped
exactly. That comment Jonathan said was very manipulating. Suggesting that we are looking at voddies image. They are two completely different things. I noticed the EO people are very good at gaslighting and twisting words.
Thank you.
God telling you to make an Icon is different than men destroying the description of the Messiah. How do we justify people making an image of Jesus when they are WAY off!
I was watching Chosen with my GF who has no interest in religion and she cried like a baby.
Excellent!
Jesus of Nazareth starring Robert Powell is my favorite.
Bro, he never blinks in the entire movie! It's weird! So holiness is staring wide-eyed and unblinking 😐?
I like that one too.
It’s all overblown in My perspective as a believer. It’s that the orthodox and RCC has OVER emphasized the iconography that the hearts of people rely on the object and not the Father. They will say “no we are not” but I’ve been to these churches YES YOU DO! I’ve seen how these people react to an icon but then don’t serve the God it is supposed to represent. I’ve seen them kiss an image of a man and a woman who we are not to worship. Stop sugar coating by calling it veneration that’s EXACTLY what you are doing.
Not to mention that from the Churches' existence, literacy was rare. Statues and pictures told the story of Christ and saints.
Thank you for producing content for your viewers. The thing that may be important to point out is that even in Baptist circles "Icons" or "images" are used in Children Bibles. Therefore, not all in any denominational backgrounds that may forbid images do fully restrict the use of them. Respectfully, Bless God.
Anytime you depict Jesus you’ll have people who idolize that person. Jonathan, who plays Jesus in the chosen, has said that he’s had many people call him Jesus, try to confess their sins to him, etc. THAT IS IDOLATRY. Voddie is pointing that out. Anytime you depict Christ there will be people who idolize it. Not everyone but it will happen.
This is the exact reason I no longer support the show. There are women out there who have romanticized Jesus, because the actor is attractive, as if He's their boyfriend.
Do some say they're reading the Bible more? Or, have become Christians? Yes. But, they then turn around and give the show credit. It's the Holy Spirit Who draws us, convicts us, and points us to Christ. Not anything else.
what's your views of Bill Carson and his talks about religion and ancient biblical texts>?
I think of how Paul preaches of how some of us are weak in faith and some are strong in faith. Some believers may see the Chosen as a stumbling block to their faith and therefore don’t watch it but others are strong enough to watch it and not be tempted into idolatry.