Orthodox Christians SLAM Martin Luther For THIS...
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2024
- Orthodox Christians SLAM Martin Luther For THIS...
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I think people in America are searching for God. I think we’re going to see Orthodoxy grow in America. I was a Protestant for 28 years. Orthodoxy brought me closer to God. The structure, discipline, and desire for God is there. For me, that disappeared quickly in my last few years as a Protestant.
I'm a protestant trying to convert to Orthodox not gonna lie 😂😂
@@kalensilva5814I was Protestant, to Catholic, to Orthodox. Just make sure you have good reasons, not just emotional appeals, but also, most importantly pray about it
Sorry to break it to you, but Orthodoxy isn’t going to grow in America.
@@justchilling704 This is incorrect, there has been a growing trend of conversions to Orthodoxy and more so in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
@@justchilling704 what makes you say that?
Just converted to Orthodoxy. Baptised Lutheran, raised kind of a non dominational. Started attending a Catholic Church, started OCIA. After seeing the things happening in the Vatican, I decided to start attending an Orthodox church, awesome place and congregation. I pray for all my Christian brothers and sisters of all denominations, to endure to the end and to follow the true gospel. Amen. Peace to all.
What happens at the Vatican shouldn't affect your faith. The teachings are still the same. I'm still american even if I dislike biden or our government. That being said, as a catholic, I greatly respect orthodoxy. I hope it goes well for you. Keep the faith!
@@SaintJoseph911 The teachings are definitely not the same as they were before the schism. In Orthodoxy they are.
@@SaintJoseph911 "What happens at the Vatican shouldn't affect your faith." If that's true why do we need the Vatican at all?
@Hoi4o pick up a catechism of the catholic church and you'll find out
@@SaintJoseph911"the gates of hell will not prevail against My church" hell has taken over the Catholic church and the Vatican is a perfect example of that
Ruslan should have Fr Josiah Trenham on. Both are in Southern California, would be an easy connection and Fr Josiah wrote a whole book on the Orthodox perspective of Protestantism
Yessir
This would be an amazing podcast!
I’m seeing him in 2 weeks in Sydney. I would LOVE to see fr Josiah trenham on this show
Yes! this would be so good! Fr Josiah is so humble too
This Orthodox Christian is making sense here
Not at all. Almost nothing he argued is grounded in Christ actual teaches, Maximus literally being mutilated over a theological dispute is unjustifiable, “The Church” killing supposed heretics is unjustifiable, Martin should okay definitely have not been murdered for his criticisms. You’re clearly out of touch with what Christianity is about.
@justchilling704 you are so out of touch. Maximus followed in The footsteps of Christ. It’s literally what Christ did.
@justchilling704 You didn’t understand the issue at all. The point was that you don’t respond to corruption with revolution. Throughout history there will be times where people higher in the hierarchy of the church are in error and Times when the Laity are in error. Maximus went down the path of truth without revolution which resulted in self sacrifice. which is the exact story of Christ passion. That is the Christian path. Martin Luther went down the path of the snake in the garden. Rebelled against hierarchy by excising himself from the hierarchy and placing himself at the top of a new hierarchy. The parallels between that and the actions of Lucifer should be noticed
@@thecrow4597 On the contrary you don’t understand, you always respond to corruption within the church with revolution, or rebellion, rebellion is only wrong when done against a just order. The serpent was wrong to rebel bc God is good, and frankly the serpent or more accurately stated, spirit had no just reason to rebel nor would it ever have had one.
Christ himself, Paul, etc. consistently rebelled against the religious hierarchy of their day, he literally started a revolution that is still transforming the world today. As for Maximus he didn’t have a choice in the situation, and he was rebelling, he was outgunned in every way he was not seeking to be a martyr and very limited options.
If anything Luther followed the example of Christ by not backing down and in criticizing the errors of the western church. Frankly it’s almost if not psychotic to say he should have been martyred. As Christians our loyalty is to God not to blindly uphold a religious hierarchy.
@@justchilling704you’re not even christian at this point bro, repent. You don’t even follow the Bible
I think Ruslan doesn’t understand that Catholism and Orthodoxy has a lot in common and they are Both wayy different than Protestantism
Orthodoxy is closer to Catholic than it is to Protestants
"you don't like the pope" is enough for some of them to forget about everything from baptismal regeneration being required for salvation all the way to the fact that pastors there are called father and confession is a sacrament, topping it off with the Liturgy of the Eucharist and the real presence and the veneration of Saints and the perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary.
Which is why I continuously say if prots were consistent in their argumentation, they'd realize they are against the entirety of pre-reformation Christianity and not just Catholicism.
@@eddardgreybeard That is a bit of a strawman position against protestants. Although I myself am protestant and considering to convert to orthodoxy, a lot of the magisterial protestant like anglicans or lutherans have a lot of pre-reformational teachings. For example Luther believed in baptismal regeneration and required for salvation, and absolution as sacrament. And he believed even in the real presence and lot of that stuff. Not every protestant is an evangelical hippy
@@DutchGigaChad
I'm aware of the high church denominations.
@@DutchGigaChad Ye but they Eucaharist isn’t valid because they have no apostolic succession and they still don’t believe tradition is infallible
@@juanharold5128Some of them have apostolic succesion. And indeed they don't view tradition as infallible, but not every church father does I guess. At least they have high respect for it, so to say that they are completely against the whole pre-reformational teachings is a bit of an absurd claim
Luther was an ordained priest in the Catholic Church. In the video it says that he was a lay monk. Still not a bishop.
Luther was also a doctor of the Church and taught theology in Wittenberg.
Yes. I think their point, though, is that he was not a successor of the Apostles (i.e. a Bishop), so could not ordain priests himself. His job was to raise the problems of the Church, not tear it apart.
@@dwpjoyce I understood that part very well. But at one point they say he wasn't even a priest. That he was a lay monk.
@fr.davidbibeau621 honestly I've always heard Luther was a monk who broke his vows and proceeded to run off with a nun causing her to break her vows. Whether or not I agree with RC is irrelevant, if this is true then that's disgusting
@@John777-3 yes, he did do that.
Whats crazy is the dichotomy between the rational and respectful discussion of the video, put against the truly vile comment section. We should recognize as Christians that we need to treat our intellectual adversaries with respect and dignity becoming of creatures made in the image of God. Truly disappointing comments from all sides.
I always try to be respectful when I am in an argument. But people always devolve into, “You’re just an idiot.”
I have developed my own opinion throughout 23ish years of learning from the Word of God. Not from dogmas or from the religious scripts of others. Though I do read those. I also test them against the scripture. Which may have been assembled by man. But I believe it was written by God.
So I test everything I hear against the knowledge of the scriptures. So when someone brings something to me, I test it against what the scripture says. That’s how I have come to believe the most in the Baptist theology.
We shouldn't even be adversaries. None of us have it fully figured out. We should try to model our lives after Christ each second of each day. There isn't one system that has supremacy over the others when we all humbly seek after God and stop being rivalrous.
Martin Luther was a priest. Also, there is no such thing as a "lay monk." Clergy, laity, and religious (monks, nuns, friars, etc.) are the three traditional categories.
Without Martin Luther you wouldn't be able to have this conversation.
I’m ok with that.
Without Orthodox Christianity there would be no Luther.
My friends I have never heard a more ahistorical analysis of Luther ever. Luther was an Augustinian Monk and he received Holy Orders in 1507. He was an ordained Catholic Priest. Luther initially sought reform within the Church have you never read the 95 theses? The reforms he wanted, chief amongst these initially were the discontinuance of the sale of indulgences. He questioned the Church’s teaching on indulgences not on his own authority but on the authority of scripture. The fact that indulgences are wholly devoid of any biblical support and ultimately a money making scheme instituted by Leo and those that both preceded and proceeded him is testament to Rome extravagances with doctrine. Peddling the Lord’s mercy. “When a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs….” Was the constant refrain of the indulgence peddler the Dominican Inquisitor Johann Tetzel.
When you have a system of theology my friend that departs from the biblical witness of Justification by faith alone and imputed righteousness and substitutes its own doctrine of inherent righteousness while conflating Justification with Sanctification then Purgatory becomes necessary. Then of course indulgences become an integral part of relieving satispassio. The finished work of the cross is attenuated.
The first and second generation magisterial reformers my friends adopted the motto “post tenebras lux” after darkness light! The recovery of the light of the gospel was the work of the reformers. Putting the scripture in the vernacular in the common persons hands was their goal. Unleashing the word of God over Rome’s inquisitions which almost always ended in death was their life’s work. Why do you think Rome didn’t want the scripture translated into the common language and made available to the common person?
As a former Catholic that loves the church you really need to spend more time looking at both the historical events as well as the reasons that motivated the actions of the magisterial reformers. God bless my brothers.
Martin luther didn't create protestantism - it was a bi product of his efforts.
Speaking as a Lutheran, Martin Luther was a reformer not a protestant. Since he was excommunicated he had to worship somewhere, so he gathered with other believers and they worshipped. He didn't start prostantism, he simply kept worshiping. I'm not sure what you mean by Luther claiming any kind of authority over the church. He never did. The authority was and still is, Scripture. He didn't assign priests, either.
Luther did not force nuns to marry.
Luther was not the arbiter of answer either...you're forgetting all the people that worked with him. In particular, Melancthon.
The minute he proposed the 95 theses with the solas and whatever, saying that whichever book of the bible that went against sola fide (which was invented by him, and never present in the church fathers) could be removed, calling the epistle of St James (A Holy Matyr and Apostle of the Church) an epistle of straw, he made himself the pope of his church, as he proposed his own “canon”, plus your church being called “Lutheran” already kind of says a lot about its revolutionary roots.
@EternityPTR , your understanding of the history of Martin Luther and the Lutheran church is incomplete. But that would explain the misunderstanding presented in the video as well.
As a Lutheran, he did ordain some priests (I think Bugenhagen did more). That's what the EO mean with 'name priests'.
@@j.g.4942, not trying to be nitpicky, but by priests, do you mean pastors? If so, what's wrong with ordaining pastors? He was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, he wasn't going to give up the faith. Any new church would need educated pastors.
@@cliffrichardson by priest or pastor I mean congregational 'minister of the Word'.
And I don't have a problem with pastor's continuing the office of the ministry (Presbyterial ordination has been a thing, though uncommon).
However that's a no for the EO, but I imagine their reason is more robust than what Pageau presents here.
I grew up in ethiopia amongst orthodox, I am a protestant, for a reason authority is what made me protest
Why do Catholics and orthodox think that Protestants follow Luther?
Because you do
Because they do. They only ever talk about Luther and reference Paul. They almost never talk about anything else.
As a Non denomination.
I’ve been to several Protestant Churches
Baptist, Methodist,assemblies of God they don’t talk about Martin Luther unless it’s in passing or church history but that’s it.
The only sect that might talk about him a lot is the Lutherans but Idk because I’ve never been there before.
@@tun6006Some do and others don't
The main issue with the Catholic and Orthodox Church is you can't go from apostolic succession to mean infallibility of councils. Councils are fallible. Sometimes they get things right and sometimes they don't.
Who gets to decide that?
@@eddardgreybeard That's what I'm saying. Who decided that the church is infallible?
@@genericname7020 the Holy Spirit operates in the church.the issue is when we say church what we mean.
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f This assumes that The Church always yields to the Holy Spirit. It is assumed and unjustified. You end up sounding like Calvinists.
@@genericname7020 when you say the ecumenical councils that are recognised as valid from the ecclesia can be wrong it means that the Holy Spirit is not operating on great dogmatic doctrines to show the truth
Ok, the "3000" denominations isn't fair because many Protestant denominations aren't schisms. They're just separate organizations. But many have fellowship.
Yeah, a lot those arguments are just a strawman. If the denomination doesn't have the essentials, it's not even the church, let alone a denomination
There’s actually more than that. They are all off-shoots of Luther.
@@SandraJM the count varies based on the definition you use. Is everything independent Baptist Church of 5 people its own denomination?
And I'd argue we're not all offshoots of Luther. Anglicans aren't really Lutheran at all and they even still have apostolic succession in the episcopate. Which in turn Methodists and other branches of the Wesleyans and 19th and 20th century groups that came through that line are also not offshoots of Luther. History is complicated. Luther most certainly got a ball moving but other groups separated from Rome separately as well.
@@Xavier-ww9zy yes. Often times, this also counts the LDS, the FLDS, the Church of Christ Temple lot, the Community of Christ, and the umpteen other Mormon offshoots as denominations. Non-Nicene heretics aren't Protestant denominations.
@@aNeighbour maybe I agree with your statement, but for the sake of argument, and this context, I don't even think it matters. The Church has encountered exponential scandal, internal problems, and fracturing since 16th C.
Luther wasn’t a layman. He was a priest
there is a difference between bishops and priests in the church as well though, which I think is the distinction they are referring to. For example, the laying of hands or ordination to the Priesthood, which can be seen in the bible, is only done by Bishops to make someone a Priest or Bishop. there are many other distinctions as well, but that is one example.
Jonathan is wrong about Luther wanting to make some sort of cult of personality or desiring power for himself. He wanted to reform the church from within and was very fearful of his own actions but ultimately felt he had no choice. The church refused to dialogue or accept that its position with regards to the gospel had changed over time. Since the gospel itself was at stake he felt no choice but to take a stand. The churches authority and that of its leaders depends on its faithfulness to the message. If someone preaches "another gospel" they are anathema according to Paul and he said the anathema would apply even to apostles or angels if they were ever to do such a thing. So, blind appeals to authority are out. Our legitimacy as believers and our churches legitimacy depends on our faithfulness to the original message.
*If someone preaches "another gospel" they are anathema according to Paul and he said the anathema would apply even to apostles or angels if they were ever to do such a thing.*
Isn't that some irony?
*So, blind appeals to authority are out.*
Except for how unbelievably wrong you are. The authority goes to the one preaching the actual gospel. This isn't a blind appeal at all.
In true protestant fashion, Luther was the first megachurch pastor, preaching a far more "marketable" gospel.
Who wouldn't want to hear that denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Christ is a works-based gospel that suggests his sacrifice was insufficient for our salvation, and all we have to do is "believe?"
@philblagden amen bro
His gospel is false, even Orthodox say that, the dude was wrong get over it.
@@christeeleison9064 The Orthodox have also changed their position over time. This is crystal clear from the writings of Victorinus, Jerome, Chrysostom, Bede who all taught explicitly and repeatedly that faith alone justifies and that works do not justify but only prove if a believers faith is genuine.
@@philblagden
Dude, no. The Orthodox didn't change their position.
Martin Luther is wrong, and not a single one of any of those Church fathers taught faith alone.
Thank you for these videos! I really like the back and forth. I personally struggle very much with choosing a denomination; and it just reiterates that I can still be in between and unsure and share in the body of Christ. This is great to see
This panel does not know a thing about the Lutheran Confessions ..
Please, do take a year off and read the Book of Concord ..
Then get back with us!
Pathetic!
Exactly!
Not more than 200 “denominations, no where close to 3k, the source papists use for that also lists 143 roman catholic denoms, and it lists mormon groups as protestant also. Its a big lie thats been called out repeatedly
Well, how do you figure all the nondenominational congregations?
On a visit to my home town a while back there was a new church that had popped up as you enter town, "Autonomous Baptist Church". A nondenominational Baptist church, who'd a thunk it.
At the town carnival, they had an evangelization tent set up right across from the "First Baptist Church".
It looks to me like they have very clearly denominated themselves in the dictionary sense of the term.
So maybe there's now no more than 201 denominations.
@@doublecutnut753 all southern baptist churches are autonoumous too technically not a denomation either just fund same seminaries and mission agencies🤷♂️ if u really wanna break it down by organizations sure theres probly alot for every church plant that does so independantly- how many of different sets of belief systems do those all have tho? Probly less than 50 if u put them into categories honestly- for ex: plenty of presbyterian “denominations” that share the exact same beliefs and even hold to the same westminster confession of faith does their association with eachother really matter when deciding between? It shouldnt. But papists have the same problem🤷♂️ who cares.
@@doublecutnut753 “first baptist church” just means it was the first or longest standing baptist church in that city, some get confused by this.
No dice. it's still dozens if not hundreds. The point stands
@@donniehass5534 different denominations same gospel. 🤷♂️ all pact with christians who believe in the authority and truth of scripture and trying to figure it out and follow the way of Jesus and know Him
Speaking as a recent orthodox convert; I genuinely think that in the next 10-20 years we will see the religious consciousness of America and I guess the West at large is about to see Orthodox kick open the door it’s been knocking on since St Herman of Alaska witnessed and brought Orthodoxy to the Aleuts.
Orthodox history in North America is really only about as new as the United States itself, God only knows the ground work has been laid for a total paradigm shift away from the Western Christian paradigm is taking place and is beginning to explode
☦️☦️☦️
Never gonna happen. Imperial authoritarian church like that is essentially against the American Constitution. You can play Orthodox in small group but you are still essentially Protestant if you grew in Protestant English culture and read the Bible in English. American modern Protestantism is just that void of any sublime historical spirit, that anything mystical and exotic has huge value and interest these days. What you should do instead is to extract the authentic essence from the ancient traditions and inject it into the culture you actually live in.
Wrong, you're gonna see a 4th major monotheistic uprising because that's what seems to be lining up, everyone thinks their own religion is gonna "save the world" when really the mighty have fallen long ago, there is no "Islamic uprising" or "orthodox uprising" only a new faith to support the weight of modernity.
My guess is these conversions to Orthodoxy are fads; restless converts, like the young, restless and Reformed movement.
Amen. ☦ Those who wait on the Lord will never be put to shame.
the constant "mhm" is a bit too much
X2
chilll 😂
But then there are definitely things that make you go hmm, yeah....you know
Mhm
Mhm
Anglicans are an example of Bishops leaving communion with the Catholic Church
And they didn't keep the faith, so succession ended with the first turncoat.
@@eddardgreybeard
Maybe one day you will get to vote to save Barrabas over an Anglo to prove how Godly and righteous you are.
@@adamprice3466
Plenty of room for Anglos in the Church Christ founded.
Point #1- we have many example of prophets of God calling out people specifically for their hypocrisy (ex. Elijah, and Moses). Even Jesus himself praised John the Baptists who called people out specifically. As a result, the first arguement against Luther is week.
Point #2 - God's ways are higher than our ways so if God chose for Martin Luther to escape martyrdom why should we question this. Did not Elijah and John the apostle escape martyrdom and are their messages less powerful because of that?
Point#3- An important point is forgotten about Luther in that he and the other reformers agreed that the word of God should be held above every earthly voice whether they were mere slaves, priests or bishops that all should rely on the very word of God as Christ did and taught. These reformers did disagreed on certain points yet the main thing that they wanted to pass on to the next generation as in the words or Luther "Sola Scriptora". If we today lose sight of this and refuse to weigh what men may say based on God's word, our houses as Christ said would be built on sand and when the wave come they will crumble. Such people will be lead astray in the last days by the words of false teachers and prophets as Christ foretold because unlike Luther and the other reformers they do not place their trust on God's Holy word, The Holy Bible. As Joshua so greatly put it, "Choose you this day whom you will follow! As for me and my house we will follow the Lord". It may not make sense all the time but no man has regretted placing his complete trust in God!
Hey, when is this full podcast dropping on patreon?
There were many Christians who became martyrs trying to reform the Roman Catholic church. It didn't have the desired effect. Id need biblical evidence that only an elder can appoint another elder.
It's just common sense. It's like Napoleon crowning himself.
@@jessecerasus9621 we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Not by "common sense".
An easy place to look is Paul's letters to Timothy, Paul talks about the laying on of hands by the elders (1Tim 4:14), he encourages Timothy to not neglect this gift he was given,
This chapter is after the chapter (1Tim 3) when Paul tells Timothy how an Overseer/Bishop (episkopos) and deacon (diakonos) must behave. This of course assumes that Timothy has the authority to choose who and who not to make an overseer or deacon. Otherwise what would be the point of Paul saying this if any Christian could appoint themselves.
The gift that Timothy was given by the elders in the laying on of hands was of course the Holy Spirit.
If you look at the conversation between Simon the Magician and Peter the apostle, (Acts 8:18-23), It is clear that The Spirit is given through the laying on of hands by the apostles v18. But it is also clear that *only* the apostles *and those the apostles select* can impart the Holy Spirit v19, this is seen because Simon asks “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Even though he was already a baptized Christian at this point he recognizes that he still cannot impart the Holy Spirit unless he gets the power to do so from the Apostles, ("that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit").
This power in question is clearly some form of ordination. At the very least these verses show there is a clear distinction between the abilities of the laity and those chosen for a higher role.
An easy place to look is Paul's letters to Timothy, Paul talks about the laying on of hands by the elders (1Tim 4:14), he encourages Timothy to not neglect this gift he was given,
This chapter is after the chapter (1Tim 3) when Paul tells Timothy how an Overseer/Bishop (episkopos) and deacon (diakonos) must behave. This of course assumes that Timothy has the authority to choose who and who not to make an overseer or deacon. Otherwise what would be the point of Paul saying this if any Christian could appoint themselves.
The gift that Timothy was given by the elders in the laying on of hands was of course the Holy Spirit.
If you look at the conversation between Simon the Magician and Peter the apostle, (Acts 8:18-23), It is clear that The Spirit is given through the laying on of hands by the apostles v18. But it is also clear that *only* the apostles *and those the apostles select* can impart the Holy Spirit v19, this is seen because Simon asks “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Even though he was already a baptized Christian at this point he recognizes that he still cannot impart the Holy Spirit unless he gets the power to do so from the Apostles, ("that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit").
This power in question is clearly some form of ordination. At the very least these verses show there is a clear distinction between the abilities of the laity and those chosen for a higher role.
@@benry007 Fear and trembling have nothing to do with the absurdity of self proclaiming his own authority.
The authority of the Church comes from Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ authority comes from God.
Martin Luther's authority comes from himself? lol
You should watch that video again
The entirety of Israel WAS intended to function as priests. The Levites received the priesthood because of the idolatry of the Israelites and their willingness to obey God's declaration to slay the idolatrous Israelites.
God is very clear that being a "kingdom of priests" was not some kind of metaphor. It was seen as an honor that the Levites received the priesthood due to their obedience, but it was intended for ALL Israelites. When Peter says you are a royal priesthood, he means literally all believers function as priests, that is to bring God to man and man to God. There is no more clergy class among Christians. Christ is the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:13-17).
The order of the Aaronic priesthood was temporary and ended because it was never intended to exist to begin with. (See earlier comment.) The "priests" under the high priest of Christ are all Christians. There is no justification for a clergy/laity system in the New Testament.
I finally subscribed just because you gave Orthodoxy attention it deserves in this broken western Protestant world we live in
I love this conversation because It’s so honest!
As a non-denominational, I admire the reverence for God that the Orthodox church has. Don't agree with Orthodoxy fully, but I admire that aspect.
why do protestants continuously claim that Luther's main objection was indulgences and corruption in the church? Luther explicitly repudiates this claim in his book "The Bondage of the Will". In an exchange between Luther and Erasmus, Luther called issues like the Papacy, indulgences "Trifles". He said... "You are the only man of all of my antagonists who have attacked the heart of the subject".. . His number 1 objection was the catholic teaching of free will. I just think it's strange that this topic is so frequently overlooked.
Good job sir
Wait, Luther didn’t think we have free will???
Sola Fide was the main thing
Because Protestantism is purely a propaganda enterprise and claiming the issue was merely over free will doesn’t slap as hard as “SELLING TICKETS TO HEAVEN”
@@stephaniedorothy6525' Of course he didn't. Adam and Eve had one and you see what mess it caused and to think that humans after the fall could/would make a better choice than this perfectly made couple it ridiculous.
Jan Hus on the occasion of his death. Convicted of heresy in 1415 by the Council of Constance, Hus turned to his executioners shortly before his sentence was carried out and remarked, "Today you burn a goose, but in one hundred years a swan will arise which you will prove unable to boil or roast."
Many reformers had been martyred over the years. The Goose is Hus, the town he was from Husinec meant Goosetown. Luther was the Swan. I believe Luther had a Swan on his families heraldry. I don't think Luther would have had the desired effect. Which is why God preserved him.
Luther literally decided what canon to use and thrusted his shallow and inadequate theology on his followers. He made himself Pope of his own religion, one where he didn’t have to consult with any other Bishops let alone a church council. How is that better than the previous 1500 years?
The legitimate abuses and reforms he sought at the beginning of his protest were all dealt with by people who didn’t lose their way like Luther. Luther became a political figure and I would argue tyrannical. People followed him and propped him up because they hated the Catholic Church or because they saw an opportunity for personal gain.
Correct, he likely wouldn’t have been impactful at all. Either way martyrdom isn’t some good thing, and certainly shouldn’t be what Christians shouldn’t have to be worried about from other supposed Christians. Honestly even tho I like Jonathan that was a crazy take. We do not have the right to kill even heretics the church is not the state, one of the mistakes of the Eastern Orthodox is that they got in bed with the state to begin with, same with the western church.
Amen. A German nobleman saved him from execution. I believe the Holy Spirit saved him as well
@@hamwithcheese586 He actually asked for a church council and he actually send his 95 thesis in 1517 to the archbishop as the highest person in the church hierarchy? Guess what they did? They called him a heretic, debating him to prove their point. If that isn´t tyrannical what is. The Catholic Church changed later on because they had to.
@@loeweal5641 Highly factual.
This is soo insightful
This is some really profound insight
Funny, because Martin Luther himself would probably be APPAULED to learn that there are people today running around calling themselves "Lutherans" or many other denominations of Protestantism today. He started a snowball that he didn't expect to get as big as it did 500 years later.
But "muh Sola Scriptura", right?
That is not Sola Scriptura but Solo Scriptura you are talking about.
the NT seems to leave the door open for local church communities to appoint their own leaders / priests based upon certain qualifications... of course super institutionalized churches don't like that
Liked and 100% agree.
I’m struggling bc I think the reformed Protestantism is the closest we have to what was intended for the church. Where the highest authority is the local community of elders. That churches are in a confederation where they are treated similar to how an individual church is to treat its members. Hold one another accountable in brotherly love.
I do think that the Catholic Church has lost its way several times and yet where the gospel is preached, we will still find believers. I also think the majority of Protestant churches have also lost their way. It seems there is a half life to how long a new church will be faithful before going off the rails.
Any form of papacy is unbiblical and based on self-claimed authority that destroy the gospels.
Orthodoxy is the other side of the coin of Catholicism, and both are based on doctrines of men above scriptures.
You know that is true.
Search good churches that follow apostolic tradition. They are still there.
@@chucksolutions4579 This is what I have found too. Though I would say any church that does not follow the 5 solas is not "Protestant" as the requirement to be such is to follow the core essential teachings of the Reformation. Unfortunately many cults that have none of the essentials are put under the umbrella of "protestant" for convenience or out of ignorance.
But as for your final comment, this is why the reformers had the saying "Semper Reformanda" or "Always reforming," because it is human nature to err, and go wrong. So we must always be checking scripture and comparing our current beliefs to what the bible says, and always returning back to the truth, and reforming back to the right way. God Bless
@@SpikeAnon “reformed and reforming,” as my PCUSA pastor would always say.
(And you get the sad joke that i say that the PCUSA long ago lost its reforming status)
amen! Amen! AMEN!
The amount of elitism in these comments smh
The fruit of the Ortho bros! 😂
Not elitism. Pride.
I mean if a place sells remission from sin how could you not call it out, that’s pretty serious stuff.
You can’t say “I’m the church”
Orthodox and Catholics- “We are the Church and we are the Priests, you can’t be a priest.”
The church is the assembly of saints all throughout the ages, it’s not necessarily a world-wide man made government institution that it has evolved into today.
Luther’s main contribution in my humble opinion was the translation of scripture to German. The Catholic church at the time made it illegal to read the Bible in any language but Latin, guaranteeing that only the privileged would have direct access to God’s word. Martin Luther allowed the people to read it themselves and not be bound by the corrupt interpretations from some priests and bishops.
The CHURCH is the people of God living in community.
That's called communion, and Eucharist is thanksgiving
Like the Mormons?
The Church is the baptized and chrismated faithful that partake in the Eucharist celebrated by a validly ordained priest from Apostlic succession
@@eddardgreybeard Amen. The beauty is He is drawing from the seeds already sown in Western Christianity.
Christ established His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Pentecost. That's the Eastern Orthodox Church. Learn your history. God bless ☦️
Hey release the whole conversation so that we can see the resolution of these discussions. They all are getting cut off as the conversations are resolving. It feels a little controlled like we’re not getting the full scope of what was discussed with this guest
He does this so that people will sign up for his Patreon to see the full video which costs money and pays him
You're not missing much. If you watch all the shorts you'll get the entire conversation
Orthodoxy is growing tremendously with converts, especially from the Protestant circles. This is happening all around the world BUT this growth is mostly in America.
Source?
4:04 Luther is the diametric opposite of St. Maximus (whom Latin rite Catholics celebrate on Aug. 13).
He's more like Patriarch Sergius, or like Arius' fellows in the service of Constantius II (whose portrait looks like some portraits of Luther).
Protestants please don't cope in the comments. As a former Baptist myself I understand your hesitant thoughts, but if you value the Truth then you'll swallow your pride and start researching into church history and start reading the early Saints and Church Fathers. Pray fervently for the Lord to reveal to you the truth and if you're willing to be wrong and trust God to guide you, you'll end up at The Orthodox Church ☦️ The best thing you can do is to go to a Divine Liturgy at your local parish and ask the priest questions about your concerns. God bless and good luck ☦️❤️
Paul took authority upon himself and didn't consult the other apostles for 13 years
He spoke directly to the Holy Spirit and had other holy men with him like ananias
Hi Bless God. I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian and a fan of Pageau. I found this stream from a black reaction youtuber. Forgive me for forgetting his name.
I prefer watching full streams to have the full discussion framed in context. Where can I find the full version of these videos clips on your channel?
He’s going to release it to the full channel later. The full thing is likely on his pattern or something similar
Behind a paywall
Ruslan!!!!!! Bring on Fr Josiah Trenham
Has this released on Patreon? I can’t find it????
It isn't what Luther should have done. The Pope should have called a council to air Luther's criticisms and have an ecumenical discussion and address the issues. Instead they strong armed him and went hostile, this made the Reformation inevitable.
☦️
As others have already stated Luther was indeed an ordained priest not a laymen.
Luther was an Augustian Priest
Luther never wanted to break from the church, he only wanted it to turn from its error and stop with the indulgences. The Catholic Church's continued corruption is what led to the flood gates being opened. Somebody had to do it, and Luther was the right man at the right time. Eric Metaxas has a good biography on Luther that's worth reading.
Martin Luther also wanted to remove the book of James, Jude, and Revelation from the Bible. Also, he was quite anti-semetic.
Martin Luther also smuggled 12 nuns out of convent and married one of the 12 Khatarina Von Bora. He was also an antisemiticing , racist towards Jews and built a memorial in the church of Wittenberg mocking Rabbis with pig statue which was very offensive to the Jews
@Dirty.Dan. well, the Jews are anti-Christian, so it makes sense
Please, enough with the "anti-semitic" tropes. His criticisms were legitimate in context to finding out what the Talmud says about Christ, The Virgin Mary, non-jews and other abominations.@@Dirty.Dan.
Yes, that was Luther’s original plan. However, instead of waiting for the Catholic Church to get rid of indulgences for the forgiveness of sins, which it did in the Council of Trent, Luther ended up creating a cult which he was the “prophet” of, which removed books from the Bible, created a false theology, claimed we can privately interpret scripture yet contradicted his fellow reformers interpretation, and his movement split into 40 sects by the time of his death.
The church are the believers themselves. We are living stones, we are a royal priesthood. Jesus is building His church not man. Hierarchy ends with Jesus as the head of the church, not a man but God Himself.
I love when people just ignore the opposite's position and just re-assert their own view. It's not an argument. Apostolic succession is real, nobody believed in the "invisible Church" until modern times.
This is nonsense. Mental gymnastics to justify Protestantism. Only legitimate claims to the Church are Catholics and Orthodox. Coincidentally they both believe in the real presence of the Eucharist and don’t allow coffee/donuts during the mass/Divine Liturgy. Make of that what you will.
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregoneapostolic tradition developed over the years
@@xaviercopeland2789 Apostolic *succession" is literally in the Book of Acts and the Gospels and it's meant to safeguard the teaching
What do you do w/ Christ, the head of all things, our Great High Priest, God & Savior....giving authority to his holy Apostles & the explicit keys of authority to Saint Peter which was passed down thru succession to Bishops?
Where is the full video?
You could argue the same with Lonnie after the Jesus Revolution. After it was completed in a sense Lonnie fell back into some old habits “allegedly”. Very interesting topic tho Ruslan!
This is absurd. Luther didn't say "I'm the Church." So, Pagaeu can stop making this objection.
He meant that Luther's actions of appointing his own priests, essentially making himself a new pope, revealed that attitude.
"For in matters of faith, every Christian is his own Pope and Church, and he cannot hold or observe anything that may in any way endanger the sincerity of his faith."
Martin Luther in Werke o5, Kritische Ausgabe, p407, line 35
@@MediaDream93 You'd actually have to spend time reading the Lutheran sources to understand that Jonathan's view is reductionistic and a misrepresentation.
@@josh2D Yes, I can quote people in a hackneyed way too.
@@marcuswilliams7448
When you declare books to be apocryphal and seek to remove books from the New Testament and basically redefine the doctrine of salvation and leave and create your own Church it doesn't matter what you say, your actions were very clear about where it is that you stand.
Russ needs to get sam shamoun on his show
He's super good against Muslims, but I sense so much anger in him, I like him as a theologian but some how I think he's like Jonah, doing the work but angry.
@@osiruchos707 I agree one moment he’s fine on his livestreams the next if there’s any sort of questioning or opposition to what he says then there’s a flurry of swearing and insults exploding out of him. It really is abit much, he has so much bottled up rage.
@@osiruchos707 I don't think it's anger, necessarily. There's a certain way Middle Eastern people and Muslims in particular go about conversations. They lie, they insult, they threaten, non-stop. Sometimes they try to be slick and do this "ya akhi, habibi" stuff. Many heretics do the same. If you do street- or on-the-ground apologetics, you become a no nonsense kinda person.
I think there are anti-Islam apologists who do, in fact, get carried away by their antipathy towards muslims, and they tend to become Zionists of one kind or another. It pays well, it affords you a bigger audience and you can get a lot of applause by bashing Islam senselessly.
I haven't seen Sam do that, at least not nearly as much as Christian Prince or David Wood. Sam, Jay Dyer, Orthodox Shahada, those are solid and empathetic guys, but they don't reserve much patience for slick talk.
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregone you think David Wood and Christian Prince bash Islam senselessly? But not Sam Shamoun? I was on Sam's discord some time ago. I had to stop listening to him based on his crass behaviour. Though I can't listen to him, I'm glad he's doing something to educate people about the cult of death we call Islam.
@@osiruchos707why would he be angry in an interview, where has he been angry in other interviews? This is just being a snake and polluted by false piety
I love how Jonathan waters down what the actual teaching of EO is. You are damned to hell if you aren't in the orthodox church
Each of us will stand ALONE before God on Judgement day. Be very careful how you judge those who believe and profess the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. You will be required to answer to the Almighty God and no one else. It is easy to stand behind your particular tradition and assume that you know all the mysteries of God and the universe. It is Christ who saves and Christ alone. All our best works are as filthy rags in comparison to the perfection of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
That is the whole message of the gospel.
Can you please bring someone like Trent horn on your show to discuss these topics?
I would love to see that!
Didn’t work well for Wycliffe nor hus lil
Fr
Wycliffe was dead by the time the Latin church got around to punishing him (due to the Babylonian Captivity).
@@MasteringJohn they still tried to reform the church and were not “sainted” like he said Martin Luther would be. Wycliffe was excommunicated and had His bones burned after he died and Wycliffe was murdered and they both were not sainted.
Where Kefa is, there is where Christ’s Keys to The Kingdom are.
Kefa?
@@chucksolutions4579 it is Peter
@@negativedawahilarious kefa is peter? Please elaborate
@@chucksolutions4579 He meant Cephas. Kefa is a misspelling. Cephas is Aramaic for Peter.
I used to be a gamer. I have also been through a lot of different churches. Denominations, Catholics, and Eastern churches remind me of DLC’s and theme packs. Some good some bad, but I thank God for what I’ve learned. The church is beautiful if you have eyes to see.
Romans 10:10 (KJV): 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
What about Luther changing Roman’s 3:28 in his German translation and inserting the word “alone” when alone is not found in the Greek version, just to support his sola fide, justification by faith alone theory. He also relocated James, Hebrews, Jude and revelation to the appendix of his Bible claiming they were not truly inspired scripture. Who gave him the authority to do that?
As a Catholic, this conversation stinks. You do not talk about someone who is not there in a demeaning manner and make it public. Where is your charity ??
Don't be a baby. You can correct someone else's position without them always being there to interject.
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregone- well they didn’t “correct” anything. Only spoke falsehood. Now sit down.
It’s pretty wild to me that protestants still exist when people have access to history.
Studying history kept me protestant
@@micahwatz1148 Now that takes skill. Impressive.
@@harvestcrops3983 not really. The catholic/orthodox church has a ridiculous history
@@clay8546 How could you ever come to that conclusion? Where in the first 1000 years is there even anything remotely Protestant?
@@harvestcrops3983 protestantism is the idea any gathering of Christian’s with scripture is a valid church. In the New Testament, that’s literally what was happening. There were groups of people gathering in their house baptizing and eating together
If you are celebrating Easter on 5th of May now in 2024 you are Orthodox. That's what Orthodoxy is about, we don't change for you, you change for God. Orthodox is Conservative and Catholics + 50000 denominations are Progressive.
The stuff about Maximus resonated a lot with me. Martin Luther’s ordination of priests and his collapsing of the distinction between the ministerial priesthood, and the baptismal priesthood (stemming from a false version of the priesthood of all believers) reminds me of the rebellion of Korah in the Old Testament (numbers 16:1-40).
Also, in a brief defense of the papacy, the Pope also sided with Maximus during all of that and was also arrested and persecuted by the same emperor and never stopped holding to the two wills of Christ. It’s almost like the papacy is infallible or something 😉
What about pope St Martins predecessor pope Honorius who was condemned as a heretic at Constantinople III?
@@seraphim95 Yeah I'm not an expert on the matter, but my understanding is that scholars dispute whether Honorius actually held to monothelitism, but even if he did, he would have held to it as a private person, rather than proclaiming it as a matter of Church Teaching. I don't think anyone believes his letters on the subject were meant to be held as authoritative teaching. Constantinople III would inherently seem to affirm this position, when it accepted the letter of Pope St. Agatho to the Council, a letter that stated that the faith had never erred in Rome.
Those two events in the same council need to be reconciled somehow, and it seems that is the most obvious way to do it.
There were literally heretic popes.
Like pope honorius who was condemned as a heretic in an eccumemical council (which is an infallible council). pope vigilius was even arrested.
Srry, but Francis alone has destroyed any notion of that!
Good catch on a lie of omission by the Orthodox here. Maximus was exiled and uniquely punished but he wasn't alone in the church on his position. The Pope was with him and they confessed the same Catholic faith.
Whatever one’s religion, there are few if any who will ask themselves, “What if I’m wrong?”
You should always be seeking truth
Well Pageau grew up in Protestantism and converted to Orthodoxy. So he definitely has asked that.
@@MediaDream93 This is the common human folly: "I thought I knew for certain then, but this time I REALLY know for certain." Case closed.
@@rawkingkong Always have, probably always will.
Introspection was a staple of monotheism at the beginning, then it became a villain...
please please please check out the study "what was the original faith"by Nazarene Israel, then check out the study, "Identity crisis" by jim staley.
Pretty sure the official Orthodox calendar is the Revised Julian calendar not the Gregorian. Although in Pageau's defence by the time the Revised Julian Calendar is different from the Gregorian calendar in eight hundred years the main church will probably opt to just stick with the Gregorian calendar and there will be a much smaller "New Old Calendar" schism. Or maybe liturgical calendars by then will be completely disconnected from whatever secular calendar people use on the space station, moon, or planet they are living on?
Sorry, saying Luther should have died is a terrible take by Jonathan here. The pope that sold indulgences agrees with him. Was the guy that hid Luther, and got him out of danger, doing the wrong thing? Some of the people transilating the bible into other than Latin met the martyr fate already at the time, and I don't think we would gotten a non-Latin transilation if dying was how they all ended. Being critical of what system Luther set up isn't what I think is ridiculous here. You can be rational and debate over that. It's acting like he'd be obligated to turn himself over. Why did any of the early church try to hide from the Romans at all, or flee to other places to spread the gospel when persecuted in one place, if there were an obligation to turn yourself in?
*The pope that sold indulgences*
There was no "selling indulgences," since there were countless ways to get them without spending a single red cent.
There were indulgences offered for monetary donations, and yes that's a very bad look. It doesn't change the fact that there was no barrier to salvation that required people to give money and buy it, since you could still get indulgences without paying anything at all.
The Cathodox theological smugness towards other Christians is disappointing
True
and yet is not dissimilar from the protestants' need to qualify what kind of 'church' they are. I belong to neither, to be clear. Peace be with you.
It's not smugness, it's the truth.
You reject the tradition Christ gave his apostles, the sacraments he instituted, and reject the authority of the Apostles he ordered to build the Church.
You say all you need is a relationship, and you turned your back on everything he built so you could have what you seek.
It's not smugness at all. Your heart is wrought with pride thinking you can find your own way to Heaven.
But you'll still say "Christ is the way," won't you?
Then why did you turn your back on his Church?
@@eddardgreybeard What a load of hot air. Doctrines of demons. Shameful.
@@eddardgreybeard Hot air.
The Catholic Church also teaches that when a person is baptized they are now a Priest, prophet and king. But that’s different form the function of an actual priest who has consecrated his life to God and his Church.
i mean Peter calls us a royal priesthood and a holy nation in 1 Peter 2:9. The same thing God calls Israel in Exodus 19:6 so we can see the same holy priestly kingdom that God established is the same that Jesus builds on the rock of Peter since the OT is a shadow of the NT.
I like how ruslan has no gud arguments for protestantism, but still listens nd agrees wth pageau whn he makes gud points against protestantism is honourable.
The orthodox view of how Luther should of acted is a very Catholic approach to issues, it's great to see the orthodox guys raise the story of his namesake saint (trust of the martyrs)
Orthodox and Catholic agree on a lot of things. In fact there is much more agreement between the two than there is between the most Protestant denominations even though they are not characterised by schisms while Orthodox and Catholics caused the biggest schism in the history of Christianity.
I appreciate your attention to what he's saying, but the "mhm's" aren't good for audio listeners. They can be distracting. No hate, I really enjoy your work. 👍
Wow. This is one of the biggest L takes they have given.
Orthadox Christians in my experience dont like anyone who isn't Orthadox.
Can you clarify that a little? I'm Orthodox but I don't dislike anyone really. Do you mean like in terms of who's in the church and that?
It’s not that we don’t like you. We just don’t acknowledge your beliefs as the true faith. We still respect you as an image of God, and pray that you come into the Church that Christ built.
@@fryingpan5431 I will tell you. Orthodox Christians essentially find something like Protestantism as heresy. That implying that anything other than strict adherence to God’s commands and living a life of repentance (as well as one can) is not following the will of God and won’t lead to salvation. They then, by intention or not, will define those people as enemies of God’s will, spreading false doctrine. It should not, nor is true Orthodoxy intended to, breed any actual hatred for anyone else. Unfortunately it does.
Orthodox complain to Protestant’s that they promote sinning. Protestant’s complain to Orthodox that they preach an unachievable obedience in the flesh. When I’m reality all denominations should be rejoice in the common belief in the Lord Jesus.
Protestants in my experience think if you don’t affirm their salvation it means we don’t like you
@@spiderb3367 God's word affirms my salvation, I don't need you to.
Pageau is correct on Peter's reference to the Old Testament context of Israel being a nation of priests to The Nations after Babel.
Research "Intertextuality" to find out more about this approach to Biblical interpretation. You really need tools like Logos Bible Software that can link the original Greek in the Septuagint to both the equivalent Hebrew and to the New Testament authors use of the same words and phrases from the Septuagint as references to Old Testament passages in their writings.
Neither RC nor orthodox sees the continuation from OT to NT. They all think that salvation starts with the establishment of their respective churches. No, it starts with God's plan in the Old Testament. God's Word, Jesus, has always existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit.
The passage in Peter does not imply we, the Church is now Israel, when it says that we are now a nation ofpriests is that we can go straight to God in Christ without intermediate, as it happened in Israel.
The Prottys are so upset 😂😂😂
being divisive is a reason people are turning a way from Christ be unified under Christ not a man-made denomination
With comments like that your not helping anyone. Not your orthodox brothers or the protestants that have a negative view of it.
@collinstansbury9312 Orthodoxy isn't a denomination. The only thing man made is your protestantism. That's just the truth. Come home to the true Church/Body of Jesus Christ.☦️
So, what do you do with “There is only one mediator between God and Man, The Lord Jesus Christ”? What about the “change in priesthood” in Hebrews, which resulted in a change in the Law and Christ now being the High Priest Who lives to make intercession for all believers? What do you do with the fact that righteousness and sonship is only being through faith in Christ (Galatians) and as John wrote, “You have no need that anyone should teach you because of the Anointing that dwells within?” The leadership given to the Body of Christ express that leadership through grace-gifting not top down position. This is clearly stated throughout Jesus’ teachings and the teachings of the early apostles. It’s the Holy Spirit that indwelt them and that indwells true believers. He leads and teaches us, both through Scripture and by the testimony of Jesus revealed to believers. The Holy Spirit is, in this this way, our spiritual authority and the basis of our unity. There are no top down priesthood offices in the New Covenant. Christ is the only remaining governing priest. There are now apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. There are overseers and elders (same as pastors), and there are deacons (“dust kickers” in the Greek). They are all servants on behalf of Christ. And indeed, we all have the grace of Christ to serve each other - each by different measures of faith. No one lords over another, though there is mutual submission through love and recognition of those who have various unique giftings and empowerments from the Holy Spirit.
So why then do we have 1500 years of priesthood before the protestant schism? Why then do the early church fathers approve of a priesthood? These were very same men who were taught by the apostles. Just because the Catholic church abused its authority doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bath water. The protestant idea of not having a priesthood is a tradition of men. Just like the idea that the Eucharist is purely symbolic is also a tradition of man. Protestants always like to point out that apostolic churches like the Orthodox church follow traditions of men when the irony is that its the protestants that are the ones following traditions of men.
Your last sentence is theoretical, in practice it does not exist. Priests were and are considered servants in God's house just the same as your somehow not "top-down" offices.
It totally exists in practice! That’s the only way it can exist. It’s based upon the real presence of the Holy Spirit, awe and reverence, honoring and testing all things by the Scripture and what the Spirit is bearing witness to “in the mouths of two or three witnesses.” The Lord does speak to and lead His sheep. They hear His voice.
@@benjamintscholl1576 except that the offices you mention can not function on this kind of egalitarian basis. Not everyone is a teacher, for instance.
I honestly don’t claim to fully understand how, but I trust the Lord’s teachings in the gospels, and John, Peter, James, Jude, and Paul concerning church governance above what emerged in the next several centuries. I’m not saying it was all bad or heretical (though some of it certainly was). If what comes after the origins makes changes, I trust the origin. I understand that the Scriptural canon was identified and confirmed by the people who followed in these years, but anything that contradicts that canon should t be accepted because it became the common practice. Where does Jesus or any of the 12 apostles or Paul institute a Gentile priesthood or even connect Gentile believers to a succession of Jewish priests? None of the apostles were even priests. I think Matthew was the only Levite. The old system became obsolete. We are brought into Christ, the High Priest, on the basis of of His final sacrifice, and we all have access to the very throne of the Father individually. We love and serve and need one another to fulfill the mission, and we have unity through the Holy Spirit - not because of any ceremonial practices, though there are still beautiful sacraments like communion done “in remembrance of Christ,” which is powerful. But no ritual alone has any meaning apart from the newness of the Spirit and reality of “being seated with Christ in heavenly places” and being “new creations in Christ.” It’s “a new and living way” as Peter put it, “through the resurrection.” And Paul says that if someone is joined to Christ, he is one spirit with Christ! That means all effectual mediation is Christ’s alone. We pray for one another, which is priestly, but praying doesn’t cause make me the mediator. I just appropriate Christ’s mediatorial work which He does continually for us “at the right hand of the Father.”
"Luther should have died and been a martyr." This illustrates an important misunderstanding about the Reformation. Yes, Luther is remembered as the face of the Reformation. *_However_* the Reformation was by no means centralized in location _or in time_ . The English Reformers were different from Luther/Continental Reformers, and many English were martyred in ways very similar to Maximos the Confessor. Just as the Eastern Christians rally around Maximos, so also our English-speaking culture arises out of the blood of English Reformers (William Tyndale et al.).
@paxChristi123 I'm not denying this, and yet I still stand by what I said. The peace of Jesus be upon you. Your point actually is one of the reasons why I differentiate between the Continental and English Reformations. They were _actually_ different, and numerous things on every side are plainly indefensible in the end. Even so, how often through the history of the Church did Reformers before, contemporary with, and after Luther come, yet Rome stamped them out with viciousness? If Luther led heinous acts against Catholics, who was he imitating? Even so, the Lord is gracious and will continue building and maturing his Church. We can recall past evils and thank Christ for victory over them so that we can learn and have this conversation today. Further, if you speak Modern English, you speak a language shaped by English Reformed ministry and martyrdom, and their subsequent works (again, citing William Tyndale as an example).
6:51-7:30 Royal priesthood is obviously understood and not problematic in Catholic or Orthodox ecclesiology
No it's not. Orthodox understand royal priesthood simply as a hierarchy, and that's actually the term as presented in Greek. The Catholics understand it literally. Orthodox accuse Catholics for mistranslating the term as "Royal" into Latin, claiming the Catholics doctored it and they did it to justify installing an illegitimate puppet of the empire as the leader of faith. It was actually one of the original arguemetns that snowballed into a conflict that lead to the schism, so it's one of the most problematic topics actually.
@@brettervonkanada6102 interesting. But I was referring more to the Protestant guy implying that because we are all priests that Catholics and Orthodox get it wrong to have a ministerial priesthood segregated from the laity.
In sacramental theology it is both not either.
@@marcolucius5083 I understand now, and I agree to your point. I must've unconsciously ignored it because it didn't even register to me as an arguement, and even now I still don't understand how it makes sense, I thought he was referring to a disagreement between Orthodox and Catholic views. I sometimes find Protestant ideas difficult to understand, all due respect to them.
Martin Luther is a saint.
By what metric? Whose metric?
*Heretic.
That’s NOT what priesthood of all believers means in either the Lutheran tradition or according to Luther himself!
Patently untrue! Priesthood of all believers isn’t suggesting that because the church is the fulfillment of Israel that now the POAB, the POAB stems from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into all the church, and Jesus’ eternal sacrifice as the High priest making it possible for all believers to stand before the Lord!
For more see Jordan B. Cooper’s channel, he’s an actual theologian and has disproven all of this orthobro stuff. I love pageau but this is just either uninformed or ignorant of the the actual position.
9:15
Jordan b Cooper has been decimated several times by orthodox and shown he doesn't understand the position
You relegate Orthodox online apologetics as “orthobro”, as if we are the only ones who do this kind of thing, and then appeal to another guy on the internet with the same fervor as a Jay Dyer fan.
Hello kettle, meet pot.
In that sense, Jay Dyer ripped Cooper apart, disproving him too. I guess what John is trying to express is the revolutionary situation that took off after Luther in which there was lesser ways to bind an interpretation of the Bible.
So why did God call the Israelities a nation of priests in Exodus 19:6, thousands of years before the Crucifixion or Pentecost?
So why then do we have 1500 years of priesthood before the protestant schism? Why then do the early church fathers approve of a priesthood? These were very same men who were taught by the apostles who received the holy spirit on pentecost. Just because the Catholic church abused its authority doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bath water. The protestant idea of not having a priesthood is a tradition of men. Just like the idea that the Eucharist is purely symbolic is also a tradition of man. You know what else is a tradition of man? Basing your theology on what one theologian said. Thats not at all how the Orthodox Church approaches interpreting scripture. It is always an interpretation that is accepted by the whole body of the church not just by what some random theologian thinks. Protestants always like to point out that apostolic churches like the Orthodox church follow traditions of men when the irony is that its the protestants that are the ones following traditions of men.
i see someone was watching active listening tutorials
Protestants, Satan divides. I believe right at the separation there were three opposing ideas of how Christianity is supposed to be at the Protestant reformation. Jesus gave the twelve authority, etc. The twelve laid their hands on believers for the ministry in the book of Acts. Laying off of hands is still being done for all believers in all types to give authority to drive out demons or for someone to receive the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Luther said the same thing Jesus and His disciples preached, the fact that you have a problem with this doctrine proves that Catholics are not Christians.
That’s hubris
It didn't exist until Luther created it, and we somehow have this really bizarre and undeniable truth that Ephesus, Corinth, Thessaloniki, and so on managed to have never produced such evidence of a doctrine despite being founded by Paul.
I guess Christianity didn't exist until Luther started it.
I would still say going either Catholic or orthodox are the only logical options.
If you think about characters in a real (somewhat dysfunctional) family there are definitely some similarities you could draw amongst the traditions and denominations 😂 All beloved members of the wider family of God 🩵
@4:55
That's why you'd need the pope to help reign in a bishop
But Jerome is clear that bishops and priests and pastors are the same thing. You should have had Jordan Cooper on with Jonathan because Jonathan admits that he's not a theologian and Cooper had answers for this.
I studied this topic in the bible and the greek words for the different services. Bishop comes from "episkopos" and means supervisor, superintendent. In the beginning of the church the new founded "ecclesias" (gatherings) were in need of some responsible people, who watch over them. According to Acts 20 bishops, pastors and "presbyteros" (Elders of Ephesos) were the same thing. But there were no priests anymore in the church of Jesus back then, only the few jewish priests who believed in him. The title "priest" for an "presbyteros" came up later in time and brought next to some advantages more separation between a "normal" disciple of christ and someone who chose to live "exclusive" for the Lord and the church. The development of monasteries in Egypt paid their part in it.
Elders
9:02 Ah, thank you!
The Church as the New Israel definitely is in the New Testament (btw, this is one of the things Trads insist on against Ratzinger calling that "Replacement theology"). The Christian Palestinians belong both to the Church and to the physical heirs of the Old Israel.