Confronting Orthodox Christians on EVERY Controversial Topic EVER
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- Опубликовано: 7 мар 2024
- Confronting Orthodox Christians on EVERY Controversial Topic EVER @JonathanPageau @dirtpoorrobins
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I saw the video and it was good but i wish you would have pressed them on mathew 1:20-25. I am paraphrasing but states joseph didn't have sexual relations until her son was born. So he did have sexual relations with Joseph. But it was good to learned.
Ruslan, please continue this series with these 2 amazing people, i can't get enough of this conversation. God Bless
@@josepharballo601 "until" does not necessarily mean that whatever was being described stopped or changed. For example, when Moses was buried, Deuteronomy says that no one knows where "until this day." That doesn't mean that on the day that was written, they had found Moses' grave, it means forever.
Thank you so much for sharing this great interview!
Could you possibly recommend a website where one can study church history for free?
God bless you!
Anna
Born as a protestant, ordained in a protestant church, then I had the courage to explore the faith of the Apostles and the early Church... Now I'm starting Catechism at my local Eastern Orthodox Church next week! Grateful for my upbringing, humbled to find the faith the Jesus established through His Apostles! Glory to God! ☦
Welcome home! Many years!
💐☦️💐
Respectfully, If Jesus would have worshipped in an Eastern Orthodox church today, with the Icons, Idols, venerating of saints, their prayers to Anyone but God, believing that they are literally drinking blood (Not that they are, but their intent is to break the commands of Old a New Testaments not to drink blood) this list can just keep going. If Jesus would have worshipped there in all that, he would not have been the sinless sacrifice, the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. He would have been another person that the Bible says," And in VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING as DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS of MEN.’”
@@vonbass1300Well, im sure you would he surprised to find out that Judaic Temples had icons as well, archaologically, every Jewish Temple found from the 2nd Temple Period had artwork depicting angels and The Prophets. Venerates The Prophets was commonplace in The Old Testament, as well as Venerating The Kings of Israel. Venerating another human is absolutely Biblical, and artwork depicting Holy figures is commonplace, it was commanded by God for The Israelites to carve out golden statues of Cherubim for the Ark of The Covenant, it is not idolatry. There are 0 idols in any Orthodox Church. 99% of the prayers in Liturgy are directed towards The Holy Trinity, with only a few directed at The Theotokos. I get the impression that you have a very poor understanding of The Old Testament, and of Church History, I also get the impression that you have never actually been to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
@@haydeen6535 1. I would be extremely surprised to find out "Judaic Temples had Icons as well" or that "Archaologically, every Jeswish Temple found from the second Temple period had artwork depicting angels and the prophets." I WOULD be surprised because it's not true. For one, there's only been 2 Temples, neither of which we have ever seen. I think you are talking about the Cheribum and palm trees and flowers carved into the walls and beams as decoration. Decoration is not Idolatry.
2. All the carvings in the walls that decorated the temple of Cheribum, palm trees and flowers were never venerated or worshiped. And there were no depictions of prophets or any other human being on the walls of the temple of God. The Bible does not prohibit artwork. It prohibits worshiping or Venerating Idols. We are forbidden to make images only for purposes of worship. (Exodus 20:4-6)
3. The Ark was never worshipped or venerated so it is not an idol by definition. And in the Temple it was placed in the holy of holies were no one but the high priest ever saw it, and he only saw it once a year.
4 . Even things like the gold serpent on the staff that Moses used to cure the people, when , after generations people started Venerating it , it was bashed into pieces Because that's idolatry.
* Just to be clear - IDOL - An Image or representation of a God used as an object of worship or veneration.
Synonyms : ICON, god, Image, totem, STATUE, figure, graven image, effigy
The Bible condemns the use of Images in worship
The Tulmud condemns the use of images in synagogue worship.
The Church for the first 3 hundred years had no images in worship. Even more than that, council of Elvira Spain 305ce Canon 36 said "Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration."
The Temples had no Icons or Idols, and the Church for the first three centuries didn't either. Neither were guilty of breaking the second commandment.
5. Origin (incontra Celsus book vii) 2nd century, Says Christians used no images in worship, mocking the notion that images were helpful in worship, citing the second commandment wrote, " ....ready to suffer death if necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they hold of the most high God." So, he would rather die than have any image of God in worship.
6. Epiphanius - considered a saint in the Orthodox Church (writing in 394ce) to John the Bishop in Jerusalem, writes of going to worship and finding on the doors curtains with embroidered images of either Jesus or a Saint.....gets mad that an image of a man should be hung in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of scriptures, "I tore it assunder" and tells John "Such images are contrary to our religion.
7. The Bible, Old and New Testaments, tell us over and over, "Do Not make an image, (used in worship)....do not bow down to them or worship them. (Exodus 20:3-6) 1 Corinthians 10:14 There for my beloved, flee from Idolatry. . . Keep yourself from images (images used in worship 1Cor 10:7, 1 John 5:21, Galations 5:19-20,
Jonah 2:8. Those who cling to worthless Idols turn away from Gods love for them.
8. Even Revelation 9:20 "The rest of mankind that was not killed by these plagues still did not REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS; THEY DID NOT STOP WORSHIPING DEMONS, AND IDOLS THAT CAN NOT SEE OR HEAR OR WALK....
9. SO, you were right that the Cheribum made for the ark of the covenant was not Idolatry, the images were decorative and were never venerated or worshipped. And were never seen by the general public just the high priest who would never offer any kind of veneration to anyone but God. But that in no way justifies all the icons and idols of worship being used in the EOC.
10. You are also right that I have never been to a Orthadox Divine Liturgy, the same way I've never bowed to any STATUE or image in any pagan temple, I have never been to a witches ceremony our a Satanic black mass. I have the internet though and I have watched and listened to them all. But I will not participate in worshiping false gods or even trying to worship the real God in a way he has told us not too.
11. And your statement that there is 0 idols in any Orthodox church is just incorrect. Just because you have renamed things doesn't change it into something else. When God says don't make idols for worship, don't bow down to them or serve them. And then you bow down to an object and Venerate ,which means worship, and kiss it, pray in front of it, and then say it's not an Idol it's an Icon, you're splitting hairs and being dishonest. When God says do not try and talk to the dead. And then you pray to dead "Saints" claiming they aren't dead, they are alive in Christ, is dishonest. They are physically dead and that's what the command was about.
As Jesus said, "You hypocrites! .....This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; In VAIN do they worship me; all their doctrines are just the commandments of men. Matthew 15:7-9)
And you Ignore Gods commands in order to follow your own teaching. (Mark 7:13)
1 John 2:1-29 .........And by this we know that we have come to know God, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.....
I hope God blesses you,
(Sorry this is so long,)
Protestant since November 2022, December 2023 I went into an Orthodox Church, today, I am a catechumen and will be baptized before Easter
repent and return back to the truth faith brother.
@@rubixcubesolve The true faith is Orthodoxy. It is ignorance to say the church of division which started in 1500AD is the "true church"
@@thewheyoflife3548 "The true faith is Orthodoxy" are you sure about that? Orthodoxy has conflict with the Bible:
Consider equal authority of church tradition and Scripture
Discouragement of individuals interpreting the Bible apart from tradition
The perpetual virginity of Mary
Prayer for the dead
Baptism of infants without reference to individual responsibility and faith
The possibility of receiving salvation after death
The possibility of losing salvation
The doctrine of justification by faith is virtually absent from the history and theology of the Orthodox Church. Rather, Orthodoxy emphasizes theosis (literally, “divinization”), the gradual process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. What many in the Orthodox tradition fail to understand is that “divinization” is the progressive result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation itself.
The true Church is comprised of every true believer in Christ anywhere in the world. It's not Orthodox/Catholic nor Protestant per se.
The eastern orthodox wans't even the first split lmao. Man you guys cope so hard @@thewheyoflife3548
@@theholyark4443 I feel like you didn't watch the video🤔
Last Sunday, after nearly three years as catechumens, my fiancée and I were chrismated into the Orthodox Church. Thank you Jonathan for all your generous wisdom ! Glory to God!
Welcome home, brother to you and your fiancée.
Glory to God!💐☦️💐
Welcome home
I found Orthodoxy by a literal miracle. I am a 90’s baby, son of a Protestant pastor, and was part of the worship team. I stepped into my first liturgy in December of 2022. Now I’m baptized Orthodox and I’m serving as a Byzantine chanter. God rewards those who seek Him in truth.
Through the prayers of our holy fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us!
From Romania writing, ex protestant, ex atheist, now Orthodox! America go full Orthodox!
there are protestants in romania?? 😮
Lord willing 🙏 I think USA is 1% orthodox time to pump those numbers up! ❤
We are working on it!!
Im not sure the cry should be "go full orthodox". Rather we should embrace the diversity in yhe body of Christ granted that the gospel is intact and at the center of the conversation. That is by grace through faith in Christ alone.
This allows the body of Christ to penetrate different cultures and relate with them while holding to godliness and the truth of the gospel.
We can be of different denominations/traditions and be of the same family so as long as the gospel is at the center. That Christ is held up and heralded as God became man to pay for our sins.
My heart would be "americans go full Christian!".
Former PK of a Methodist preacher, Greek Orthodox Christian for the last 14 years, glory to God. To me, it was like going from Cliff Notes to the full text but in every way...Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith and it's a lifestyle and a mindset that takes years to understand. With God's help I will continue to learn.
I am a PK as well! Orthodoxy feels exactly like that to me as well! Like I was missing the full context! God bless!
May this video be blessed! I recently (6 month ago) was baptized into Orthodoxy. After 30+ years in Protestantism (including a short time as a "Digital Pastor"). I found myself frustrated with all the differences even between the same denominations. Orthodoxy feels like "coming home".
Welcome home, brother
That's because it IS home!
💐☦️💐Welcome Home!
The 'same denominations'? If you don't find the Apostles Doctrine in the New Testament , it is not the church of Christ.
@rexweller3759 But Orthodoxy is the Church of Christ.
Orthodoxy has changed my life! The true apostolic church will change your walk with Christ! And living in the fullness of Christian living. Jesus is King ☦️👑
Mine too
Starting my journey now from Prot.
@@NVRSTP excellent! Embrace the catechumen journey. Stay in touch!
Your walk with Christ ? Are you sure ? Do you pray to Mary? to the saints ? Do you kiss icons? Do you kiss the priest's hand ? Do you pray in a special place near an icon ? Look, brother, Christ has nothing to do with these pagan doctrines and practices !
@@rayj.5792 this is a good perspective and the same argument can be made about traditions of every Christian denomination. The fact is that Christ and his teachings have been preserved throughout time by the Orthodox Church.
Best video on the channel. Jonathan Pageau was the catalyst for me coming to Christ. I was an atheist, but his talks on movies and current affairs slowly changed my worldview until my conversion was inevitable. I'll finally be received into the Church this coming Holy Saturday after a long catechesis, glory to God.
God bless you brother may the Lord have mercy on us all
One of my favorite conversations of all time. Please bring them back on regularly. This this could’ve lasted five hours and I would’ve listened to the entire thing. Thank you for a great conversation.
Was an atheist until 2 years ago. Trying to learn the faith in Protestantism was incredibly difficult as even pastors all believed something different and call each other heretics. This lead me to orthodoxy. 1st Cor 1:10 tells us the faith must be unified and it became clear to me that it was not in Protestantism. My wife and I along with our kids were baptized into the Orthodox Church one month ago. Glory to God!
I completely understand as a “Protestant” myself who loves most of what I see in EO. Some things I just can’t jive with, but totally respect it. 😊
@@mariebo7491 Glad to hear. You have to continue to question yourself: On what basis do I disagree with the practices of the church who put the bible together? Am I sure that I'm guided by God? Are there people who claim and believe to be guided by God who are wrong? Why can't that be me?
@@fantasypvpvideos just because Christians 1500 years ago held a council to officially decide the Bible canon, it doesn't automatically make the entire church infallible for all of time. That's a logical fallacy. Many things the Orthodox do today were not established until hundreds of years after Christ, most of which came from the Byzantine empire. If it works for you that's great, but being a Christian is about living a life of love and purity, not some exact liturgy. If the liturgy aids you in being loving and pure that's great. But the liturgy in itself is not the point. The Bible is very clear on this. Read the parable of the sheep and the goats. Does God make the deciding cut based on if they practiced the exactly right liturgy? No, it's whether they lived a life of love. Read James 1:27 "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." There it is. Love and purity is the point of religion. Not liturgy. 1Timothy 1:5-7 "Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm." Paul makes it clear here that it's about love, not dogma.
Therefor, if Christians are to be united, it must be in love, not in liturgy. Your liturgy is superior? Fine, show me with your loving acts which are the fruit of such superiority, not your empty words.
❤️ Wonderful testimony.
@@theTavis01 you are forgetting that without those councils guided by the Holy Spirit you would have no Bible. The Church needed to be guided to see what books were inspired and what were not. Christ left us a Church that he said will not fall. The Church gave us the Bible and safeguards it. We see in Protestantism what happens when everyone decides to interpret it for themselves. As for your James 1:27 so Mormons,JW and Muslims are all in because they live a life of love and believe in Christ?
I was baptized and Chrismated in the Orthodox Church almost three years ago on Pentecost after a long journey towards Christ Jesus. Glory to God!
Me, my wife, and our 6 children joined the Orthodox Church last year. Jonathan has been a huge part of our conversion story.
I grew up protestant and I am finding the truth through Orthodoxy and I feel whole. ☦️
The enlightenment is coming to those who seek the truth. Orthodoxy is the way.
Same ☦️
Amen 🙏🙏🙏
Jesus Christ is the way brother. Stop focusing so much on your church and focus on God alone.
@@evanhelmkay2490Christ established a church and through the Eucharist he is present every Sunday
@@steventripple4765 Jesus is present always through the Holy Spirit who lives in us. I can literally pray here where I am currently and feel the presence of God. God bless you man.
I completely agree with Jonathan's point about us Protestants constantly worrying about whether or not we're saved. We should get on with serving Christ, His church, and his kingdom.
Thats weird I had to leave the Catholic Church and go Prot to know I'm saved ..different strokes for different folks
Assuming or believing you're saved is the sin of presumption. We can have reasonable confidence in our salvation, but not certainty, for no one can know the precise will of God. Conversion is a lifelong process, not a one-and-done event. Don't lose yourself looking to the horizon and forget what is under your feet. Don't fixate on the future so much that you lose your sense of the present. You don't get a halo around your head until you're dead, and even then you must first be judged. Saint Paul wrote of running the race and fighting the good fight until his last breath, and we must strive to do the same.
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Philippians 2:12-13
@@FourEyedFrenchman the Bible clearly teaches that you can know you're saved, because you can trust the one in whom you put your faith. It's not confidence in yourself, it's confidence in Christ.
@@gnomeache2926He's probably Reformed.
@@MeanBeanComedy is it your point that reformed theologians are particularly prone to constantly worrying about their salvation, or did you have some other point in mind?
Thank you Ruslan for posting this whole interview. You rock!
I was Chrismated into the Orthodox Church last year January. Formerly Protestant myself. Love the conversation ☦️🙏🏾
Born into a materialist atheist family, spent many years as a pagan, came into Christianity and was shocked at the many churches. I didn’t feel God in most of them very strongly until I was directed to Orthodoxy. I am currently undergoing catechism
Been an active evangelical most of my life, 45 y/o, just became a catechumen last month. I've never been happier and more connected with my faith
Former Protestant (non-denom). I knew all I wanted to do was follow Christ with all my heart, as deeply as possible. One day I found myself watching the Exodus series by Jordan Peterson. Jonathan Pageau was on it as well, and kept dropping these super interesting nuggets that were hard to understand at first. Kept saying he got this from the early Church Fathers (had never even heard that term before).
Anyway 6ish months of Jonathan Pageau videos, learning symbolism, reading early Church fathers, diving into Church history.. I walked into an Orthodox Church the first time and experienced a Divine Liturgy. My Wife and I are now Catechumens in the Holy Orthodox Church. ☦️ I now understand what ‘the fullness of the Church’ means, and I get to live it for eternity! Glory to God.
Any recommendations on books you read about early church fathers teachings ?
I experienced Divine Glory in a protestant Church. As you can see, God meets you anywhere! Thanks!
@@joshuapayne9826just read their writings directly. They speak for themselves. It's available online.
@@joshuapayne9826 great question, my answer is related to my initial comment, so for me after watching that Exodus series on DW, I dove into St Gregory of Nyssa’s life of Moses. Written roughly around 390 AD I think.
Another good place to start is St Ignatius of Antioch, who was the Bishop of Antioch around 70-110AD if my memory serves. So taught directly by the Apostles, in an age when at least 1 Apostle was still alive . See what he says about the church.
@@kc_woodsman7504 awesome thanks !
As an Orthodox christian, i have to say this interview is really full of useful information.
Thank you! ❤
I’m a former Protestant now Orthodox. Concerning the Virgin Mary, ALL the classic reformers believed in the perpetual Virginity of Mary. It appears as if the view changed around the 1800s amongst Protestants becoming more Solo Scriptura. Sola Scriptura became Solo Scriptura for many. Example, unless Tradition mirrors Scripture then it’s not accepted. The perpetual Virginity of Mary doesn’t contradict Scripture, it shapes the “brothers” language (in Greek its broader then English and can mean cousins, relatives), which is rejected by many Protestants because they stick with their modern tradition over and against the Tradition of Orthodoxy maintained forever.
Last, concerning salvation, faith alone, works, Protestantism is stuck in a Roman Catholic and Reformation argument that has nothing to do with Orthodoxy because in Catholicism, they moved toward innovations that affect multiple things from the fall of man in sin to penal substitution to the wrath of God and much more. So, when Protestants try to talk about such things as were discussed toward the end of this video about faith alone, works, salvation, Protestants are operating from a very confused position spring-boarded from a confused and innovative Rome that had lost its way being disconnected from the East. The Reformers only saw a few problems, what they missed has been adopted, which they would never see or recover from unless they simply went back to the original one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church as found in Orthodoxy.
Matthew 13:55-56 talks about the family of Jesus, and brothers and sisters. While the greek word "Adelphai" for brother could include half brother or in a stretch cousin, the word sister is always full blood sister. Mary after fufulling her job as the virgin mother of the Savior she was free to be the wife of her husband as it says in Matthew 1:25 "he knew her not UNTILL..." she was never to be put on a pedestal and believed to being born without sin in a weird doctrine of immaculate conception from her own mother's womb. In her prayer in Luke 1:47 she calls the Lord her Savior, counting herself among the sinners needing redemption.
Matthew 13:55-56 the original word is broader then our English understanding and is not a stretch to be understood as cousins as you say. It was a normal way of communication for relatives. The tradition follows that Joseph was previously married and had other children, his wife died, and the Virgin Mary was taken as his wife to be preserved. They both chose a sacred and holy path.
Matthew 1:25 until, as far as, till, doesn’t here or elsewhere signify something now happening after an event, in this case Jesus’ birth, but something that would perpetually continue. The sacred and mind blowing event of God becoming man was the reason for the sacred preservation. We today in our modern understanding cant perceive such a thing because very little is understood and treated as sacred.
Everything about the Virgin Mary that has been maintained and understood is firstly about the Word made flesh. Attacks on the divinity or humanity or Him as a divine Person, etc., were defended in part by how they talked about the Theotokos (Mother of God). It’s interesting to note how the heretics talked about Christ and His mother, even the interpretation you’re taking sides with the ancient heretics. Something for you to think about.
Your interpretation also contradicts the Tradition of the Church, and therefore the church fathers that provide an interpretive lens by which we can properly understand Scripture. The heretics used to use human reason to figure out for themselves what to think and believe. Every heresy stems from human reason. We are not to use human reason to figure things out about God, but preserve what was already handed down. The rationalism of Western Christianity to do theology is the way of heretics and the reason for 30,000 or more Protestant denominations and nondenominations without unity. The error of the heretics was to use human reason to do theology, but this was not the Tradition of the Eastern fathers or the fisherman. Also, Jesus had John take the Virgin Mary to care for. If there were other children, then it would be the second born’ responsibility.
As for the Virgin Mary being born without sin, you are thinking of the Roman Catholic innovation developed in the West. This is not the Orthodox position. The idea of sin in Rome had departed from the Eastern fathers due to St. Augustine and adopted by his written works. Protestantism also adopted the same departure from the fathers on sin. If you don’t understand the differences between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it would be safe to not assume anything.
Last, the Virgin Mary was born with original sin, and also needed a Savior. The Protestants I’m familiar with agree with us on. Your issue is with Rome, not Orthodoxy.
The interpretation you’ve been taught is in line with ancient heretics. It’s an interpretation that contradicts Martin Luther, John Calvin, and all the classic reformers. It also had become a popular position since the 1800s, which means you’re taking a position that contradicts the one Church and is only about 200 years old as far as popularity goes in modern times. It is also a view that does nothing for you except diminish the Mother of God, undermine what the Church had always knew from Mary or the apostle John who shared such things with the Church.
That belief started 500 years after christ.
@@joshuaboyd6253Can I join you in just throwing out there any old fictional statements?
@@Orthodoxy.Memorize.Scripture the 2nd council of Constantinople
Greatest conversation on this channel. Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us. 🙏☦️
X3
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
I've been a Protestant a long time and the fact that Calvinists will hate you after this conversation says a lot about them.
That's what happens when Christians take their eyes off of God Himself, getting distracted with "lesser" important things. That's what happens when Calvinists or whoever worship a theology rather than God Himself, unfortunately ☹️🙏
As a former Calvinist now converting to orthodoxy yeah they be ruthless
@@alyssafreeman6006 I wouldn't go so far as to say they worship their theology, they just elevate it too high, and then it outstrips love and humility.
@@steventripple4765 can you give a brief reason for saying this?
@@gnomeache2926Just to clarify, I was not talking about "they." I was saying it the way I was to try to allude to the fact that blanketing people together like that, " the calvinists" and etc, is how we get the "us vs them" problems going on or being too overgeneralized. I was also being hyperbolic when I said worship, but yes that's exactly what I was getting at is that some Christians struggle with elevating their theology too high to where it outstrips love and humility...exactly!
This is my favorite video of yours by far. So engaging and helpful
Hello to all Christians especially to my Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ.
Great convo! I was once a devout Protestant and converted to Orthodoxy. Best decision I ever made!
Glory to God💐☦️💐
This conversation was so good for my understanding and journey with as a NEW Christian. THANK YOU for having it.
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. ☦
Orthodox monastics have always encouraged the faithful to read the Scriptures in your home. After all that's what Christ commanded.
One of the best interviews I have ever seen and it is explosion of knowledge that I am harvesting from it, God bless you all ❤🙏
This is your best episode. Thank you for sharing.
Absolutely loved this. Always get a lot out of Jonathan Pageaus videos. But i especially resonated with everything Neil said, brought lots of clarity. Thank you!
How did I miss this until now?! Loved it. Thank you guys so much. ❤️
A good, challenging, stretching, and intriguing conversation between these brothers in Christ! What a day we live in that this kind of thing is possible!
Thanks to you Ruslan for putting the whole thing out there, I think this discussion in particular is well-served by viewing it uncut! 👍👍
I agree. For anyone that is even questioning these topics is on a right/good path. We don't start off knowing everything but if we have a love for the truth, then God IS faithful to lead us rightfully. The concern, however, are for those who only argue the point in order to win the argument. Those people don't love the truth. Those people love being right above all else. That is very dangerous grounds.
The Truth of Christ is in Orthodoxy
The truth of Christ is in Christ.
The truth of Christ is in The Word. That's all Protestants are: lovers of The Word of the Living God ❤
@@christafarion9 I believed Sola Scriptura too brother but it's wrong. Try listening to orthodox view about the toppic and you will understand.
@@nikolakrstic8079 I've been trying, but I really have to hold the Word as a higher authority. We are all fallible, and the notion that some are supposedly infallible is just peak fallibility. It's a gross and self congratulating idea. Thank you for your kind words, however. See you in Heaven.
Love all this podcast, God bless you all brother in Christ, Orthodox, protestant, catholic, oriental orthodoxy, we all seek christ and the truth, God love you all boys.
Greetings from a Christian orthodox romanian Family!💞💖🌸
This conversation is 🔥 Jonathan is so wise! I really enjoyed this. Would love to see more Orthodox Christians on the channel!
Awesome talk! Didn't know anything about the Orthodox church. I experienced a church that in my mind came closest to the way the "early church" practiced. Sunday starts with a pastor teaching. Worship is next... Spirit led with members(saints) asking to sing, asking to pray, confessing to the body, reading/reciting scripture. God moved. One example... Lost Dad in the community needs prayer post car accident in a coma. One is moved to visit the home with a meal. Another offers babysitting. By God's grace Mom and kids come to Christ. Dad is healed and comes to Christ. The spirit moved in that form of worship like I'd never seen before or since. God is good.
Neil and Ruslan really didn't hear or understand what Jonathan was saying about salvation and works. I could just see Jonathan's frustration building that they weren't understanding accurately what he was trying to communicate. It was so profound. I've heard inklings of it in different ways before, but this was the first time I've ever heard it elucidated so clearly. So profound, so much truth, so beautiful. And such a pivotal distinction to make and understand!! 🤯 Totally changes everything.
This is such a great conversation thank you for doing this!!
Great conversation, would love to hear more with Johnathan and Neil
As a Greek Orthodox,Jonathan n the other guy(sorry 4 not knowing his name btw hes talking VERY knowledgeable)represents our faith BEAUTIFULLY in the US n all around the world..God bless 🙌 🙏 ❤ us ALL,AMEN
There is one God, and only ONE mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.
I Timothy 2:5
Amen!
Protestant here! Loved the convo, even though didn’t agree w most points, it was fun and made me think of things in a new light and understand the other side better
Ex protestant family from Winnipeg, Canada. After 25 years of various protestant churches, my whole family and my sister's family, 13 people in total, joined the Church during the pandemic ☦️💜🙏🏻
Protestantism is absolutely closer to Catholicism than it is to orthodoxy.
Divine simplicity, doctrine of original sin, the atonement, filioque.
Even just on the differences between palamism and Thomism with the divine essence being impossible to even grasp in part and the whole apophatic nature of orthodox theology is enough to completely alienate it to the Protestant mind on a level so much greater than catholic theology.
Your own church teaches the same doctrine of original sin in the confession of Dositheus as Rome. Your own church and liturgy teach a form of substitutionary atonement, and it's clear in the fathers. These sorts of polemics, as a protestant, actually push me away from Orthodoxy because they're made up
I see you actually dont know orthodox theology
@UltraX34 that's hubris
I agree with zeencosis this could've gone on for 5 hours I would've listened to the whole thing. It would be awesome to see this combo as repeat guests. I am new to your show and don't know much about you but would be a regular listener to that episode no doubt.
One whole united body of Christ, love all my brothers and sisters in Christ. One of the most edifying talkes ive listened to. God Bless everyone truly walking and seeking Christ, bringing unity to the body 🙏💛
Amazing to see how open minded you are, Ruslan. May God bless you and guide you to the fullness of His Truth.
You gotta have Trent Horn on again! Also, s/o to Joe Heschmeyer for putting out a lot of recent content on Mary etc. Ruslan you got this! Love your channel! God bless you and team!
As a former Protestant convert to Orthodoxy, this was like my 2 lives colliding. I thank God for my Protestant upbringing bringing me to Holy Orthodoxy.
I really appreciate the charitable dialogue on this video. I wish both Protestants and Orthodox would practice this pattern online and elsewhere.
Great conversation. May God bless all of you.
Tupac started my spiritual journey, Peterson brought things into sharp focus, Pageau tied so much together and helped the ramifications of traditions land in my own life. Now this interview starts talking about my beginning... I had no idea Jonathan would bring things so full circle and was open to so many angles of experience but it makes complete sense in hindsight with him being an amazing artist.
Orthodoxy is not new or ancient. It is eternal
I’m confused how many of these are there? Love it
Really appreciate the second guest way of presenting his view and answering the questions. Spectacular!!!
I am leaving my protestant church for Orthodoxy. I made my mind up this week after my pastor said that Virgin Mary was "no different than any of our mothers."
What makes her inherently special? Was Mary sinless? If she was sinless then why does the bible not say so? Why should she be revered over any other mother? Why be so obsessed with worshiping a human?
@@SeanWinters I want you to stop for a second and think what it would be like if you lived in the first century and Mother Mary were still here in body. Imagine you're standing in a Church in the first century and the Mother of Christ God walks in. Do you think she would be treated the same as everyone else? No she wouldn't. She would be held up with a respect and honor that would definitely not be afforded to all other women. This should be obvious, and if you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
So for the opinion of one man your throwing out the entire church? If you hold Mary in higher regard thats fine, but it doesn’t have to be Doctrine for Salvation
@@AbigailStovall-jh4gl yeah they are trying to find the fulness of truth
My family is Syrian Eastern Orthodox we attend a Antiochian Orthodox church here in Australia. I love our arabic church prayers and services and the conservative traditions of the church. However, after a spiritual encounter and Jesus speaking to me I am not risking my salvation on church politics and denominations. The more I have analysed I see superiority in the Orthodox church and it becoming an identity for people. I see that people love the externalities of the church traditions and the Byzantine chanting but miss the whole point. They just go through the motions of the liturgy and think that because they go to church services they are all good. Now that we will start our lent fasting we are going to be celebrating pascha a month after the west. And that in itself is another topic of discussion that is never ending with who's right. My focus is on Jesus.
The Orthodox Church is Christ’s Church. You should hitch your salvation on that very proposition. If this is not true, Orthodoxy is false and Christianity itself would be a lie.
But you are right, there are people who cling to the externalities of Orthodoxy without it transforming themselves in their hearts, meaning that for them it is empty religion devoid of saving power. Heaven forbid that we become full of pride when Christ calls us to humility and repentance.
Yet, we can be humble and entirely committed to saying that Orthodoxy is not just true, but THE truth, for it is Christ Himself who is presented to us in the Church.
That's the wheat and the tares that we know from Christmas parable will always be there until He returns. While I agree with the idea that some ppl falsely cling to externalities, there are ppl in all denominations who do that.
Orthodoxy isn’t a denomination.
@@FreshPelmeni Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life - NOT the community
@@Antreus The Church is not reducible to the individuals therein. This is a silly Protestant notion of the Church.
The Church is more fundamentally the theanthropic body of Christ. It is Christ’s own humanity into which we as people are incorporated - hence the language of union with Christ all throughout the NT.
As such, because the Church IS Christ, it is the way the truth and the life, hence why St Paul calls it the pillar and foundation of truth.
Thanks for posting the full video! I’ve loved the short clips and I get you have to monetise content so thanks for this ❤
Really enjoyed this thank you
The Power of Asking is real.
Amen!
I see only God as omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent so I look to Him only as the one to pray to . I appreciate the saints who are in their physical bodies to pray for me and have not gone on to the church victorious to intercede for me.
Why only in their physical bodies? Are they closer to God then those who are in Heaven with Him? And although saints are not omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, they are in God and with God, united with Him, so are all of the mentioned through Him. And since they are so close to God, why not ask them to pray for you?
I checked out an orthodox church where I live because of this conversation… and the accumulation of time that I’ve listened to Pageau. This video was the straw that broke the camels back. Thanks Jonathon.
Great talk!
Submerged three times!!! 🙏☦️
Orthodoxy is the one and true church. God created only one church and promised to preserve until the end of times. Truth will always shine! Glory to God ❤
The true church are those who repent of sin and confess Christ
Amen @@petemacinnes
Are you sure about that? Orthodoxy has conflict with the Bible:
Consider equal authority of church tradition and Scripture
Discouragement of individuals interpreting the Bible apart from tradition
The perpetual virginity of Mary
Prayer for the dead
Baptism of infants without reference to individual responsibility and faith
The possibility of receiving salvation after death
The possibility of losing salvation
The doctrine of justification by faith is virtually absent from the history and theology of the Orthodox Church. Rather, Orthodoxy emphasizes theosis (literally, “divinization”), the gradual process by which Christians become more and more like Christ. What many in the Orthodox tradition fail to understand is that “divinization” is the progressive result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation itself.
The true Church is comprised of every true believer in Christ anywhere in the world. It's not Orthodox/Catholic nor Protestant per se.
@@theholyark4443 God is everywhere but if you are looking for his fullness, that can be found only in Orthodoxy. We should not settle for less especially when it comes to union with our creator. As far as your arguments, saying this with love, but are simply wrong interpretations and understandings of the Bible. Orthodoxy gave christianity the Bible, so seek and you may find the answer to your statements. Remember that if you are truly looking for God and his truth, he will be there with you. Again, Truth will always shine! God bless ❤
Holy ark none of the things on that list are in conflict w scripture.
Your worldview is a subtle denial of the incarnation as the Church is the physical body of of Christ. It is a tangible thing w boundaries.
Great conversation, many enlightened points, God bless.
This interview was really cool! : D
I’ve never asked Paul or any of the authors of scripture to help me understand scripture. I’ve always asked the Holy Spirit. 🫤
So did the other Protestants and you all came to a different results. Holy Spirit is not a Spirit of confusion. Those who were lead by the Holy Spirit realized where the Lord's Church is and inquired into Orthodoxy.
@@johnnyd2383 I don’t believe for one moment Augustine and Calvin were spirit lead. I understand some of Luther’s protests, but he credited most of his “understanding” to Augustine, so the Reformation, as far as I’m concerned, was all man centered not Spirit led. In that I agree.
@@mariebo7491 But you still hold onto their "products" one of them being the belief that HS leads one into the understanding of the Scriptures even though they missed it. What makes you believe you were not lead into the same trap.?
@@johnnyd2383 You are making up a lie. Who were those lead by the Spirit you talk of.
@@celinamilian Originator of his comment thread. Are you jumping in w/o even reading previous exchanges.?
As a Conservative Lutheran we stand on that Luther was excommunicated , his desire was to remain in the church. I would feel much more comfortable in the Orthodox Church over the Roman Church despite coming from the West where the filoque is practiced. As a Lutheran we reject the Rapture and Dispensational theology.
As a strictly Biblical Christian, claiming as little ecclesiastical baggage as possible, I see a challenge in understanding The Bible and God’s prophetic calendar without at least analytically viewing things through a dispensational framework and The Catching Away (What the English word “Rapture” and the Greek & Latin words behind it means)
Try reading John 14, 1 COR 15, 1 Thess and Rev 4:1 and Comparing that to the Galilean Wedding Customs of contemporaneous antiquity …
You will find a STRIKING Correlation.
Also, Luther was a virulent Antisemite and ignored the differences & distinctions between God’s prophetic programs for Israel, The Church (His Bride) and The Nations - 3 distinct groups (Yes, with some overlap) with 3 distinct identities in scripture & 3 definitely distinct Prophetic Programs laid out in Scripture.
Augustine did you dirty with his comprehensive metaphorical / allegorical interpretation grid that Completely flies in the face of Rational, Spiritual Hermeneutics.
But that’s my opinion and I’d love to hear your take on it
@@glenholmgren1218no where in the bible does it say Christianity should be strictly biblical, in fact it’s says the opposite in John 21:25. Jesus left many more teachings which will be found in tradition in the original churches like the Catholic and orthodox
Very interesting conversation!
God bless everyone on here. The best youtube channel to follow and have a better understanding on Orthodoxy is Roots of Orthodoxy. 🙏🏼
Communion and prayer with those who are still living on earth in the flesh with us is encouraging and builds up the body of Christ. It is very different asking for prayer from a saint who is no longer here on earth. It takes away the physical aspect of fellowship and replaces something very necessary, although difficult- it is the mechanism God has given us to sharpen one another. So, no, I do not feel like I am 'missing out' or the prayers I share with fellow believers here on earth is 'less than' or watered down in any way at all. It is effective in working out our salvation together through prayer together, accountability. Also, protestants definitely appropriate hierarchy and greatly appreciate the accountability that goes along with that.
Orthodox people pray together as well. A lot.
bro will definitely become orthodox
💐☦️💐
Great conversation
I’m glad you’re doing a segment on Orthodox Christianity. I came out of the Greek Orthodox Church when I heard the Gospel of Salvation clearly for the first time. I never knew it when I was going to the Greek church. Just focused on the rituals and celebrating different Saints’ days, etc.
Great point. Same experience I had with Catholicism
Surprised and excited to hear Pageau say he is into hip hop. Ha ha. Never would have guessed that!
Appreciated conversation… finally a discussion on Mary, interesting POV. I would have love to hear a little more especially why it is important to the Orthodox view point. And do they believe Jesus came out of the birth canal?
First time i have heard this perpetual virginity explained in a way that is convincing and make one think.
Yes our Lord was born naturally. The Mother of God did not feel pain. The answer to Eve.
Yes, she is the ark of the New Covenant. Without her we have no Savior.
1:15:19 This whole conversation has been amazing so far, but as a writer and lover of beauty, this discussion of beauty in the world as a way to participate in God warmed my soul and heart!!! I wish more Protestants didn’t look down on art and beauty so much…😢
I forgot to mention that I loved this video!
Small critique of Jonathan's timeline on Liturgy - and I know he wasnt trying to be super precise - but his statement that "as soon as Christians were not persecuted, they got buildings and began making liturgy" makes it sound like Liturgy was created around the 300s. However, the evidence is that Liturgy was there from the beginning. While there are Liturgies that have been adapted and changed, but claim a source from the first century like the Liturgy of St. James and Liturgy of St. Mark, we have an unadapted Liturgy from a work by Hippolytus called "The Apostolic Tradition" written around 215, where he is recording the Liturgical elements for posterity, because he feels the tradition they have in 215 is beginning to change. So he is recording the "ancient tradition" in 215. There is a liturgy in the "Apostolic Constitutions" from 390AD that is composed of much earlier material and cites Clement of Rome (Disciple of John and Peter) as its author. It has much congruence with the Liturgy of Hippolytus (of Rome) in his "Apostolic Tradition", which makes it likely that Clement (95 AD) was a common source for both Liturgies, both coming from Rome. Also the Didache, from the first century, while not a full Liturgy itself, is "liturgical" in nature. Also, the greek word in the NT for "service" and the verb to "minister" is literally "Leitourgeo", which is a form of the word we get "liturgy" in English. This is also shown archaeologically at the site of the "upper room" in Jerusalem, which its original layer shows it was made into a church by Jewish converts in the first century and is oriented toward Calvary (Expedition Bible has a great video on this on RUclips). So the Church was liturgical from the beginning, coming out of the Jewish liturgical tradition.
Pray the psalms…
@@bobbobberson5627 You think this is arguing? It's just filling out the info and supporting the position of Jonathan with more detail.
We are not talking to Paul we are readining his teaching. It is not prayer, we pray to Jesus directly.
That was the first thing that popped into my mind as well. Not the same thing at all.
If I listened correctly, they aren't exactly only looking at scripture alone as an absolute authority. Protestants do, for the most part, and I think we could never really agree with them because of that simple point. If church traditions are as authoritative as scripture, then we will have a hard time finding common ground. Talking to the dead does seem to be a forbidden practice in scripture. But, again, my final authority is scripture alone.
@@PastorParis I do agree, and they think we ignore history and those that have gone before us. I don't think we do however ignore history, Protestants don't hold it equal but instructive at best, and traditions if there is no example in scripture is simple traditions made by man. My denomination actually still uphold the 5 fold ministry and we have appointments of elders and pastors which can be Bishops and heads of an organization is loosely a bishop of Bishops. We have Apostles in the church, evangelist, Pastors, teachers, and Prophets. I do like 1st amongst equals more than the Roman example. If we are faithful we are all called to the work of the ministry for the building of the saints.
@@wjc252006how do you have apostles at your church yet gotta be thousands years old
@@GRACE4LYFE Apostles do the work of Apostles it is a desciple which we a are with a commission as we all are, but they also act as Bishop of an area, they are sent and do the work of Apostle. Also an Evangelist does some of that work along with missionaries. Pastors are Prophets and There are some called to be Prophets or are gifted to prophesy.
If this is part 2... where is part 1? Is it just the 1-on-1 interview with Johnathan? Would love to listen to more of these two.
This video is so great.
Doing good is not works of salvation but obedience to his word as in walking by the Spirit of Life.
Obedience demands action. All this was already settled.
1:04:35 I disagree with Jonathan’s statement. It can be implied that Mary had children. It said
“ Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him as his wife and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son and called his name Jesus” (Mt 1:24-25)
Joseph didn’t have relations with Mary until after Jesus’ birth.
Exactly, its mentioned several times that he had brothers and sisters, in Matthew, Mark and Galatians, if it was cousins they could have been more specific, also when Jesus is being called out, they mention him as the son of Mary and Joseph whom are also the parents of jesus siblings, why would they call out Jesus cousins, if they were talking about his parents? It makes no sense (Matthew 13:55-56) it is true that protestants don’t have the highest regard for Mary and we should emphasize her obedience to God and how blessed she was to be Chosen by God, but sex inside of Marriage is not a sin and is not unclean in any way, and ultimately this is what this entire thing is about. Its very difficult for men to see a woman they venerate as a Holy being as a sexual one, but Mary was not sinless/holy. She was a blessed, obedient, incredibly important Woman, if not the most important woman who has ever existed, but she had sex after Jesus was born and thats ok!
Nope. There are many reasons to think they never had relations of that kind. One is that this is the Church Tradition, preserved from those who knew Mary and was clear very early on. However, a clear example comes from the Scriptures, from John. When John is under the Cross with Mary, Jesus looks at them and gives her to his care. If Joseph was alive at that time, or if Mary had any other children, then this would not be possible. She was a woman, and in that time in history she would need to be under the care of a man (husband first, son, cousin...). The fact that she is given to John for care implies that Joseph was dead at that time, which strongly suggests he was already very old, which matches the Church Tradition. And it also implies that she had no other children, or she would be under their care already, with no need to get John involved.
The mention of brothers and sisters of Jesus does not suggest that they are the children of Mary. Polygamous marriages were norm at that time (which is why Apostles are shocked when Jesus says that a man must have only one wife), and all of the children of the father would be considered as brothers and sisters, not cousins as some suggest. There is even a good OT example of that, with all of the children of David being called brothers and sisters, even though they are explicitly stated to be of different mothers.
@@goranvuksa1220
I normally leaned towards *not* the perpetual virginity of Mary, but that fact about her being delivered over to John's care is honestly one of the strongest points in favour of it. A son would care for his mother, assuming there was a blood son of Mary younger than Jesus. So since it was John instead, tgat heavily infers that she had no other sons
More convos like this!!
I am a protestant, but loved this conversation!
If the Mother of God had children, why did Jesus Christ, on the cross, leave the Mother of God to John the apostle (John 19:27)?
Why not James who was a relative ("brother") of JESUS?
And why is the son of Mary written in the Bible for Jesus? There is no other person who can be called the son of Mary in the Bible.
In Old Testament is written that Mesia will be born from a virgin that remain virgin after birth (door is shut). (Ezekiel 44, 2)
If Jessus had had brothers, He didn't was the Mesia.
You were all great!
8 Likes for a lie... SMH. Ezekiel 44,2 has nothing to do with Mary it is a prophecy already completed when the Assyrians invaded Jerusalem and shut the gate. It is an eschatological issue rather than anything affecting human organs.
Most people could not read books , there were no books to be read. All scripture was hand written. Most people couldn’t afford a hand written scripture no matter how available one might be. (Like go to a library- no libraries either.) what did become available? Painting, icons, carvings. Scripture for the eye.
I just came across this video and I'm at the end of it now. Love the conversation.
I am looking into joining the Orthodox Church.
Actually the Orthodox Church I have been attending is Saint Michael's in Louisville that Neil mentioned. May the Lord bless all of you..
I was catholic and go to protest and I can of miss the order and reverse of Catholic Church.
Thank you guys for this awesome conversation!!
YOu are stuck in a vicious cycle of heresies. Orthodoxy is the true way. Pray to Lord to reveal that to you.
You are welcome back any time! Even if it is just to pray, sit with God, or attend mass. :)
@@georgefuentes4112 Thank you!
We have more catechumens this year than our parish has ever seen in its history. Something happening.
God is calling back His sheep
Same at mine! New families and sooooo many baptisms. My Parish has a small building and they're looking to start expanding it. God is good. ☦️
We had 18 baptisms this last Holy Saturday alone!
@@crossvilleengineering1238 brother, I've never actually been to Alabama, nor is the profile pic a picture of me, it's all a big inside joke lol.
Dr Brant Pitre has a really good book on Mary and the jewish roots for her veneration
Christ Has Risen! Orthodox Christians is a way of being! ❤️☦️