I just realized that for Daisy it may didn't seemed so bad to catch feeling for a married cat, since she just came out from a poly relationship. So maybe she thought "hey, he can have two mates, right? Thats how it works on the barn, why should it be different here?".
Honestly having a "nursery mother" is a great idea for the clans, if there's someone who wants that role! Especially considering the culture. Cats like Daisy and Ferncloud should be considered great assets
They should be considered some of the most important assets, honestly. I always liked them because yeah, sure, female characters shouldn't necessarily be reduced to "mother" and nothing else, but in their world and culture, having and especially RAISING the future generations is so vital. It is what keeps the Clans alive and strong. And it definitely made sense for the kind of cats they were, just as it made sense for other cats to be medicine cats or warriors or leaders.
@@kendraheck2325 They should have a ministory about how daisy rears kits and how hard it is. I think the reason so many fans (most likely young fans) hated on her at the time is because they had no idea how hard it must've been to take care of all the cats. Instead of shedding light on their work, the erins would prefer to just kill of characters the fans dont like.
i always felt fans sour attitudes towards daisy and cats like her was never anything more than veiled misogyny. its saddening how little girls (the majority of wc's readerbase) felt the need to shame and reject her femininity/motherhood as a way to vent society pressuring them into that role unwillingly. the hate towards her was never personal, just kids not viewing feminine traits as valuable (especially when they are directly contrasted with more traditionally masculine traits)
As an oldest daughter, and one of the older cousins, yeah, when people say that childcare is easy, they either are one of those people who are just naturally good at that, or they're really good with certain age groups. I was terrible with little kids, but 3rd through 8th graders? Watch me. I used to be one of those people that rejected feminity but now I appreciate it so much, and know that people embrace it in their on way and find their own balance. I know I have. I definitely would be a Daisy type too, I always need to feel like I'm useful. I've grown to really love her character!
Honestly permanent queens seem quite important, if a mother of kits dies or perhaps ditches their children, the kits do not have to grow up without a maternal figure in life
IDK the idea the fandom hates Daisy for not giving away her culture for the one she's forced into by circumstance while her kids are basically forced into by being surrounded by it to the point they never even know their original culture, I DON'T KNOW THAT SOUNDS KIND OF SUS TO ME IT REMINDS ME OF SOME HISTORICAL EVENTS I WONDER WHY
Also even if Daisy didn’t contribute, hating her for that would still be horrible. Just because someone doesn’t work, doesn’t mean they aren’t useless and that they aren’t a good person. It also doesn’t mean they’re lazy. I really hate this reasoning people have because it implies that they see real people who can’t or won’t work in the same light. I know these cats are only fictional but how you view fiction can seriously affect your mindset in the real world. And the thing is, Daisy doesn’t even fall into that category, people just think she does. Nursery bound cats is actually a rather important job, especially because ( more recently ) Thunderclan has so many new kits and some mothers may lack milk, or some mothers may want to go straight back to work, and when they’re gone, Daisy is just like a babysitter. Which is great! Sorry for the tangent, but gosh some people back in the older days of the fandom spoke about Daisy in the same way some of the cats in the series spoke about Briarlight. Like I’m not kidding I’ve seen some people say some nasty things towards her.
The tumbler post about Daisy beeing useless gave me whiplash. So much darkness... ;_; That person did not even considered that Elders and Disabled characters do the same - don't fight or hunt. But I guess they are "more equal" because they are clanborn and never want kids, just watch tem happen with horror and surprise. Because femininity and motherhood is a weakness, "not hard job" and "not a real aspiration". What kind of cruel world births such ideas...
I never really thought much about her until the “it never rains in Southern California map”, which really puts into perspective how sad her story is. Daisy is such a strong character who went through so much
A video about Daisy warrior cats? Common Gracie Fitzpeter W Edit: 31:21 this part made me tear up. I’ve never hated Daisy, but this video really puts it into perspective how sad her story is. Daisy’s story is a story about isolation and feeling like she doesn’t belong, and the fact that so many people missed this and decided to hate on her character instead is really, really sad.
I only disliked her at the beginning because Cloudtail was a complete moron and was hurting Brightheart by behaving as he was with daisy. I got over it once she became a nursery cat and found her place in the clan. She is a good character.
Same, I mostly just keep up with the story these days through Warriors youtubers and the wiki but when I found out Daisy's lost almost all of her children when she originally left to protect them is just incredibly sad. When I was a kid I fell into the trap of thinking she was annoying but it's very clear that the Clans could benefit from more nursery moms like her.
Raising kits and helping queens give birth? That is not useless lmao. How did fans ever think this?? And honestly, while her introduction may've played a part in the hate, considering Ferncloud who was actually a proper warrior at a couple points also got the same hate, I'm 90% sure it's just sexism. Those two fill a feminine role rather than fighting therefore bad in the minds of certain readers. Quite sad really because both are great characters
thank you! i was thinking the exact same thing. it’s ridiculous that daisy haters described her as “laying around” and “being pampered” when raising kids is a ton of mental and emotional work
@@princeramblerose mhm. It is stupid that people would think that. They've obviously never been around kids for long lmao let alone 2 or more kids at once
Like yeah, she is very useful to the clan!! Raising kids is really hard, you have to take proper care and help guide another whole being! And this also benefits clams in so many ways, besides giving new warriors to the clan. They, as you mentioned, can help first-time mothers to give birth and raise kids, they also can raise kits who lost their parents. Permaqueens also allow she-cats who doesn’t want to stay in the nursery for long get back to the warriors duties faster (as in Squiffs case, I know she adopted the three, but it doesn’t change the point). And as other comment or mentioned, it will allow medicine cats have mates and kittens, while still doing their job, same for the female leaders! It honestly can solve so many problems in WC books and has an amazing potential. Elaborating on this idea in the books themselves will make them more interesting. And it honestly will make warriors society treat she-cats much better than it is now.
It’s crazy that fans would accuse the series of sexism yet internalize that mindset on female characters that stay in the queens den and caring for kits by using it as a complaint. There are so many female characters that don’t do what Daisy does for as long as she did.
I hope they don't kill Daisy any time soon since I doubt there will be another character like her. Ferncloud was kind of similar and you see how they treated her. I guess Fernsong could take her role but they treated him like shit as well. It would be nice to get a nursery pov but then again this is the erins were talking about...
This deserves so much more attention! I never really cared about Daisy, but this video helped me see her character a lot differently. I never even considered or remembered the fact that she was basically pressured into joining ThunderClan, and that ThunderClan sort of used her for her kits.
The authors confirmed in some interview that Daisy and Spiderleg had a one night stand. Though he seemed to get closer with her and their kits in a later book...and then they killed him off. I also noticed Fernsong wasn't seen in the nursery...UNTIL Spotfur's Rebellion where it's mentioned he spends most of his time in the nursery and he's the one always watching over his and Ivypool's kits in the story.
These in depth looks at individual characters is what I love about the Warriors community! I'd love to hear what you think of other characters, or groups!
Maybe I'm miss remembering or misunderstood. But Daisy coming on to CloudTail could be a cultural misunderstanding. If she was raised in a more open relationship kind of culture she could have just thought that was okay. And she is shown backing off when she realizes this isn't appropriate. So it's seems like a case of not understanding boundaries at first but realizing why she needs to back off. But again idk I'm getting back into the series so again maybe I miss remember something.
37:48 I'm pretty sure in one of the scenes of the last hope, Purdy gets caught bringing a mouse into the camp. And mouse fur said it was because he WANTED to hunt,but Purdy Denied and said it was because mousefur was hungry
When it comes to commenting on Brightheart's face I don't think it's just to show the ignorance of the character but to remind us - fandom who loves to just paint her with one eye closed and flowers growing out of the tiny scar - that Brightheart is horrendously disfigured and that she really shocks characters once they see her for the first time because she has half of her face missing, and it's not a "normal view" even for warriors standards. What happened to her was terrible and will never go away, left a permanent mark on her body. She is disabled and she has to live with it. And we do need reminding that she went through something horrible, because the readers, just like Thunderclan cats, seeing her everyday like this, get used to it and in the end turn completly numb. But then an outsider comes and reminds us that Brightheart is scared and has all the right to be insecure and fearing rejection (or never getting an apprentice because clans are just pretending that everything is fine while beeing ableistic - twofaceness is worst than just beeing mean but honest at this point in my opinion). Even Cloudtail forgot. For him his love for Brightheart was so obvious that, "why would anyone ever think that I could choose Daisy or any other cat?" well dude, LOOK AT YOUR WIFE she has all the right to be insecure, it's easy to get used to seeing something, way harder to get used to living with it.
Great video!! I remember also falling into the category of ""girl" who rejected traditional femininity and therefore disliked perma-queens" back when I was first reading the series when I was 11-12 so listening to a more in-depth analysis of her and her recent appearances as an adult was nice and I can say I definitely appreciate her more! I stopped reading after The Last Hope, so I enjoy learning about what the more minor characters are up to these days. I think an important thing people need to keep in mind in regards to how the Clans perceive queens and characters like Daisy is that the Erins (or Harper Collins at least) are... very "traditional", we'll say; they want little girls to want to grow up and become housewives (hence the regular struggle of "do I have kits/a family and be happy or go forward with my career" struggle seen in many prominent female characters.) They wouldn't push an agenda which made mothers or homemakers out to be useless or unnecessary. (Hence why we can't have actually canon LGBTQ+ characters in the series.) While Warriors is a universe with its own society and rules, it's still written by (many different) humans with their own ideas of what that society should look like/mirror and their ideas for that are very clear when you take a step back from the fantasy world and view it from a slightly more objective perspective. The rules and structure of their society didn't just... happen because the cats decided it. It was written intentionally by adult humans.
I was the same in middle school (god i was stupid), but i always helped out with the kids or cooking, I had a reputation for it. But yeah, it was always really annoying to see so many female warriors get stuck in that role. Seeing Squilf not be as involved i thought was kinda cool 'cause it showed the communal aspects of the clans, which i felt was more present in the og series (at least from my perspective), and seeing Hollyleaf grapple with it was really cool to see as well. Of course the "fake barren" plot and the adoption kinda sours the motive and interaction behind that convo a bit (or makes it more sad, because Squilf might've seen Hollypaw not wanting kits as a rejection of something she "never" would've gotten anyway - god i hate that that was a lie. I just wish there weren't so many stories of "women have to reject a career" for kids, many cultures (including the clans) are more communal, so the lack of "it takes a village" which arguably would've given more clan bonding (and wouldn't you want future apprentices to like you anyway) frustrated me. But of course, this is a traditionally minded group of adult (and I think yt) women writing the series, so of course its gonna be blended in (though the inclusion of ancestor worship as a religion is interesting from that meta perspective).
Ah I’m so glad to see people coming around! After I read her novella, I totally fell in love with her character. For all new Daisy fans, I recommend to you the best ship, Daisy and Squirrelflight. You’re welcome :)
Daisy and Squirrelflight is so fucking good thank you. Eating this up rn. Because Bramblestar was so shitty and Squirrelflight shows lots of compassion to kittypets bc her father, the leader, was a kittypet too!
I love permaqueens, nobody can tell me they don't have a use. I'm also a sucker for specialized roles- in a lot of fanwritten stuff I see there are lots of these. Like builders, Watchers, messengers, spiritual guides, strategists, poison checkers ect. I love the idea that clans would make sure every cat has a purpose, whether they're disabled or pregnant or whatever.
Thank you for this video! My own mother decided (on her own) to be a stay-at-home Mom while my Dad worked (since he got paid more anyway). My Mom was met with hostility from other women about how "anti-feminist" that decision was, when, as you point out in your video, just because someone doesn't have to doesn't mean they can't choose to live a more traditionally feminine lifestyle. Also, being "just" a stay-at-home Mom? Raising kids isn't a relaxing fun time, there's no "just" about it. It's not a small feat. I think the fans hating on Daisy and Ferncloud because they decided to be permaqueens while fans love Fernsong for just talking about the idea?? I think it shows some underlying sexism in our society and what we perceive to be one gender's standard, and another gender's extra hard work.
i absolutely LOVE the point about daisy keeping her name. i always thought that suited her character but i didnt know how to describe why. you got it!!
Daisy was not a character I thought about very often, but I was always comforted when she was present in a scene. Her role as a nursery queen was a breath of fresh air when stacked against so many battle-focused she cats. She didn’t need to compete with the rest of the cast because she was one of a kind. As a kid I always struggled with fandom stuff like what your role would be in Warrior Cats, because I didn’t see myself in the female warrior or medicine cat characters. Was being able to have a romantic relationship worth the risk of being killed everyday in this world? I didn’t think so. I also found the common medicine cat saying, “the clan are my kits” to be a bit hollow because (female) medicine cat characters often had kits anyways, and when they did they didn’t have a role in raising them or any other kit for that matter. Jayfeather sure as hell wasn’t going to spend much time in the nursery, so to me it stands to reason that the role of a permanent nursery queen ought to be a semi-official role, if not fully official.
Not gonna lie I was tearing up a little bit when you covered the end of her novella. She's literally the ThunderClan Mom and yes I will get emotional about this
I can see the owners taking the kittens if they were sickly or the mother flea infested and the kittens needing to be cleaned. They also could have taken the kits to vaccinate them or take them to the vet to check for disease because the parents are barn cats and could have diseases that could have harmed the kits. Another reason could be that they wanted to find all the kits and then the mother so that they can be in a nursery shed or someplace safer. Or they could be stupid but thats no fun to think~
@billcipher8645 Maybe they're one of those hard-core farms. Like the ones who think controlling the population of cats is by... *yanno*. Unfortunately, used to be common for some farmers to do when they didn't want new cats.
@@Wolf-Chalk That's what I was thinking and I hate that idea but there are people that think like that, especially the more rural you get. I guess there's also the chance that they thought the kittens weren't being taken care of for some reason and took them to bottle feed? Or maybe Floss was sicker for longer than Daisy and Smokey thought and it wasn't safe for her to nurse the kits for some reason?
With Daisy, I didn't dislike her, in fact i respected her. I just thought she was boring, but ever since her novella, I started to like her more. I honestly think her novella was one of the most important/impactful one I've ever read from Warriors. I went into it expecting to be bored, but came out of it really moved. Love ya, Daisy and all other catmoms out there! 😸
Daisy was always a character I loved to see. I remember having my mind blown that a cat would refuse to rename themselves. The thing is that Warriors is full of culture clash metaphors. Having someone be in charge of their own identity and say "yeah I get it but, actually, i want a piece of my own culture." If Brook had actually joined the Clans, I'm sure no one would say anything about her if she didn't change her name. Stormfur didn't change his either when he joined the Tribe but nobody even sniffed at that. Also i just watched all of your nursery queen essays totally out of order lol.
I really love daisy, when I was reading the warrior books I immediately love daisy as a queen, queens are characters I really wanna see more I just wanna see more about them like daisy not like they are useless it is just that they choose to become a permanent queen cause they see caring for kits is better than being a warrior
Like they bitching daisy when ferncloud didn’t fight a lot when she was alive she was appreciated after sacrifice herself for brightheart and her kittens honestly I am glad daisy is helping the clans in the 6th cycle
I don't have a lot of warriors cats read as I borrowed the books from a friend who I haven't been able to get them from in while, but I loved Daisy so much, and it didn't really occur to me that others mightn't like her. At least not for being a permanent queen. She's such a great character and I'm glad this video is here to give her some more love ^-^
Daisy is one of my favourite background characters and is one of the active reasons I tried to at least keep up with the series after omen of the stars, poor gal has been through so much and gets so much hate for reasons similair to why they love ferncloud
The apparent reason people hate Daisy is why I hate Tree. He does NOTHING. He doesn’t fight, doesn’t hunt, doesn’t border patrol, doesn’t heal, doesn’t help with kits. His job is to “mediate” but look at the newest arc, he has done nothing to subdue fighting and conflict. Like I get he can contact ghosts, but so can Rootspring and Rootspring still contributes to his clan. It just irks me that characters like Ferncloud and Daisy get flack when Tree doesnt even do his job.
yeah people have argued that instead of tree and rootspring and bristlefrost and shadowsight that it should have just been rootspring and bristlefrost or that tree and shadowsight are just. pointless
Daisy has become one of my favorite characters over time, but I do think my initial feelings of her were colored by me reading certian books out of order, i.e. the Graystripe Graphic Novels. When I was younger I really liked Millie a lot more, since she was a cat who also joined later in life, but put in the effort to be a warrior. Nowadays, after re-listening to the series with a new outlook, Daisy is such a lovely character- who stands in opposition to the typical cats in ThunderClan. She's refreshing!
I really like Daisy, as well as Fernsong for being the closest we’re probably going to get to a new clan role being added. I also like tree for the same reason. I feel like the books could really benefit from their being more roles in the clan besides warrior, medicine cat, deputy and leader. I feel like the addition of these roles could nicely shake up the storyline and flesh out the character in those roles more. Caretaker would be a great start, but I also think den maker, messenger, and field medic would also be great roles to add.
I used to find Daisy annoying when I was younger too, but as I've grown up, like a lot of people I have learnt to have a lot of respect for her character. Becoming a single mother who brings her family into a completely foreign place so that she can give them a better life would have been TERRIFYING. And while she doesn't adjust to some things, I think she adjusts to others wonderfully. In particular I respect that even after once being mates with Spiderleg she doesn't cling to him in desperation. She scolds him because of how little he is involved in the lives of his children. She seems content without really having a partner and I find that admirable.
Gosh I was so excited to see this video in my recommended; Daisy is a character that I feel is really sidelined and treated with so much vitriol by the fandom when it just isn't... deserved, I think. Like sure personal taste and all that, but it really went beyond that in my opinion. Really, it's been a relief to see people starting to appreciate her more for the most part in recent years. Fantastic video; I loved your analysis of her!
Personally I never hated Daisy. She always filled an important role and people that diss her for choosing to stay in the nursery obviously has never thought about how hard it is to keep an eye on children when you're fucking exhausted from giving birth, nursing and then being anxious to get back to your job.
God it's been so long since I read these books, but even I remember how messed up it felt when leafpool named daisy's kits without her permission. Also, I hope it's not rude to ask, but why is skyclan censored? (Again, I havent read these books in years, so I dont know if there's something wrong in them that most people agree on)
I willl always appreciate Daisy, the ultimate Aunty. I know in ceritan cultures there's actually a term for "second mother". I'm not from one of those cultures, but between my grandmother living with me and some extended family living with me for a few years, I had relatives who somewhat filled this role. Honestly, if I were a clan cat, I'd probably do the same, heck, I was KNOWN for skipping classes in school to help with younger grades and it was just, normal for me. I always liked her inclusion, and like the idea of job diversity more. Love this gal!
The fandom: hates a a cat for being the ‘same’ and un-unique like everyone else Also the fandom: hates a cat for being unique and different from normal clan cats
Reading her novella and enraged that Smoky is given this narrative that he wanted his kits with Daisy which I’m positive he didn’t care at all in the book it happened in. Now Daisy is this villain who tOoK ThE kIdS. Correct me if I’m wrong but Smoky did not care right???
I gotta admit as a kid first reading the new prophecy, I REALLY hated Daisy, especially after the Cloudtail thing. But looking back on everything now as a more mature adult, girl is hella underrated considering how helpful she was. She pretty much was a second and/or stand in mother to the majority of kirs born in ThunderClan after she chose to stay there permanently and I think people saying shes "useless" are being so unfair. Looking after kits is a HARD job, hell I'd even go a step further and say its even HARDER than fighting, hunting and patrolling. Not to mention she was probably a huge source of knowledge and support/comfort for first-time mothers and she-cats raising litters as single mothers alike. ThunderClan would've been NOTHING without cats like Daisy and Ferncloud. ❤
I think Purdy had a same role as Daisy in the clan but for the elders (well, mostly Mousefur). After all he took great care of her when she was grieving Longtail, finding the best food for her, keeping her company... But yeah, most of the hate for Daisy and Ferncloud are unfounded and blatantly sexist. People just couldn't accept that some she-cats could choose to do something else that is not "the norm". And it's also pretty hypocritical cause I'm sure that a lot of those who complained about fictional cats having "too much babies" are the same people who would find it anormal for people like me not to want kids. (And also, I don't know if you noticed but all the cats blamed for overbreeding are only females, on the Ferncloud part, no one ever blamed Dustpelt, even though he definitely had something to do with it. Which clearly shows the argument is all about sexism.) Anyway, but I'd have to say though that I feel like Ferncloud was way less developed than Daisy. Once she had kits it felt like everything about her was kits, and even before I don't remember anything special about her. Maybe that's an issue on my part, I didn't pay too much attention, but for me Daisy was given way more personality and character (with her whole backstory and how she dealt with becoming a clan cat). Maybe that's just personal, I don't know.
I really would like if you would do rain flower because of her and crooked kit and how she was probably the the worst mother in the Whole fandom. She’s very selfish but also there’s the medicine cat who is there for crooked kit , she’s more of a mother to crooked kit than rain flower would ever be because rain flower unlike golden flower and gray stripes kits she looks at her son with discuss and hate and I feel she needs a video about her not only her and crooked kit but also her other son, she keeps her other son by her side 20.4.7 but pushes crooked kit away like he’s crow-food and than when crooked kit grew up he grew up to have sliver stream so a video ether about crooked star/kit or rain flower.
Daisy: Cloudtail is nice and I like him Brightheart: that’s my husband Spiderleg: I’ll date you Daisy Daisy: Yay- Spiderleg: but no kits Daisy: *ima just go create rosepetal and toadstep*
@@belughlegosi it's called a joke. I also think spiderleg did want kits but well...Daddy problems. Dustpelt is his dad and he doesn't like outsiders much
@@kitarozushi Mapleshade is indeed sexism, and I'd bring up the article about it but youtube doesn't like links. When it gets to the point that people say shit like she wanted her kits to die, draw her permanently pregnant in the dark forest as a "punishment", and draw her literally CHOKING appledusk in a birdcage, and other horrible things, and nobody says ANYTHING, but a map that heaven forbid has a slightly off representation that could be misconstrued as mental illness even if its not portraying mental illness gets DEATH THREATS and gets cancelled, its misogyny to blame, as this fandom is full of misogynists.
I just realized that for Daisy it may didn't seemed so bad to catch feeling for a married cat, since she just came out from a poly relationship. So maybe she thought "hey, he can have two mates, right? Thats how it works on the barn, why should it be different here?".
Honestly having a "nursery mother" is a great idea for the clans, if there's someone who wants that role! Especially considering the culture. Cats like Daisy and Ferncloud should be considered great assets
They should be considered some of the most important assets, honestly. I always liked them because yeah, sure, female characters shouldn't necessarily be reduced to "mother" and nothing else, but in their world and culture, having and especially RAISING the future generations is so vital. It is what keeps the Clans alive and strong. And it definitely made sense for the kind of cats they were, just as it made sense for other cats to be medicine cats or warriors or leaders.
@@kendraheck2325 They should have a ministory about how daisy rears kits and how hard it is. I think the reason so many fans (most likely young fans) hated on her at the time is because they had no idea how hard it must've been to take care of all the cats. Instead of shedding light on their work, the erins would prefer to just kill of characters the fans dont like.
And it could give medicine cats the option to still do their duties and have kits or a female leader or deputy. Give the kids daycare while mom works.
@@catandrobbyflores Never thought of this but that is a great idea.
@@scaredstiff7176 its such a easy fix but no, the writers really hate the idea of any healthy work/life balance for the she cats.
I never really thought about how she was forced to stay in Thunderclan like that. Poor Daisy, I'm glad she at least found some belonging there later.
Me neither, that's so sad when you think about it. I feel like firestar and his family should know better too.
yet another female cat who committed the unforgivable crime of both being female and having emotions
and squirrelflight and leafpool and cinderpelt/heart and yellowfang and (inhales)
i always felt fans sour attitudes towards daisy and cats like her was never anything more than veiled misogyny. its saddening how little girls (the majority of wc's readerbase) felt the need to shame and reject her femininity/motherhood as a way to vent society pressuring them into that role unwillingly. the hate towards her was never personal, just kids not viewing feminine traits as valuable (especially when they are directly contrasted with more traditionally masculine traits)
As an oldest daughter, and one of the older cousins, yeah, when people say that childcare is easy, they either are one of those people who are just naturally good at that, or they're really good with certain age groups. I was terrible with little kids, but 3rd through 8th graders? Watch me. I used to be one of those people that rejected feminity but now I appreciate it so much, and know that people embrace it in their on way and find their own balance. I know I have. I definitely would be a Daisy type too, I always need to feel like I'm useful. I've grown to really love her character!
Honestly permanent queens seem quite important, if a mother of kits dies or perhaps ditches their children, the kits do not have to grow up without a maternal figure in life
IDK the idea the fandom hates Daisy for not giving away her culture for the one she's forced into by circumstance while her kids are basically forced into by being surrounded by it to the point they never even know their original culture, I DON'T KNOW THAT SOUNDS KIND OF SUS TO ME IT REMINDS ME OF SOME HISTORICAL EVENTS I WONDER WHY
Also even if Daisy didn’t contribute, hating her for that would still be horrible. Just because someone doesn’t work, doesn’t mean they aren’t useless and that they aren’t a good person. It also doesn’t mean they’re lazy. I really hate this reasoning people have because it implies that they see real people who can’t or won’t work in the same light. I know these cats are only fictional but how you view fiction can seriously affect your mindset in the real world. And the thing is, Daisy doesn’t even fall into that category, people just think she does. Nursery bound cats is actually a rather important job, especially because ( more recently ) Thunderclan has so many new kits and some mothers may lack milk, or some mothers may want to go straight back to work, and when they’re gone, Daisy is just like a babysitter. Which is great!
Sorry for the tangent, but gosh some people back in the older days of the fandom spoke about Daisy in the same way some of the cats in the series spoke about Briarlight. Like I’m not kidding I’ve seen some people say some nasty things towards her.
The tumbler post about Daisy beeing useless gave me whiplash. So much darkness... ;_; That person did not even considered that Elders and Disabled characters do the same - don't fight or hunt. But I guess they are "more equal" because they are clanborn and never want kids, just watch tem happen with horror and surprise. Because femininity and motherhood is a weakness, "not hard job" and "not a real aspiration". What kind of cruel world births such ideas...
I never really thought much about her until the “it never rains in Southern California map”, which really puts into perspective how sad her story is. Daisy is such a strong character who went through so much
me too! i was like damn poor daisy i love her and her family 😭 the Repeat Until Death MAP is making me feel stuff too...
A video about Daisy warrior cats? Common Gracie Fitzpeter W
Edit: 31:21 this part made me tear up. I’ve never hated Daisy, but this video really puts it into perspective how sad her story is. Daisy’s story is a story about isolation and feeling like she doesn’t belong, and the fact that so many people missed this and decided to hate on her character instead is really, really sad.
I only disliked her at the beginning because Cloudtail was a complete moron and was hurting Brightheart by behaving as he was with daisy. I got over it once she became a nursery cat and found her place in the clan. She is a good character.
Same, I mostly just keep up with the story these days through Warriors youtubers and the wiki but when I found out Daisy's lost almost all of her children when she originally left to protect them is just incredibly sad. When I was a kid I fell into the trap of thinking she was annoying but it's very clear that the Clans could benefit from more nursery moms like her.
Raising kits and helping queens give birth? That is not useless lmao. How did fans ever think this?? And honestly, while her introduction may've played a part in the hate, considering Ferncloud who was actually a proper warrior at a couple points also got the same hate, I'm 90% sure it's just sexism. Those two fill a feminine role rather than fighting therefore bad in the minds of certain readers. Quite sad really because both are great characters
thank you! i was thinking the exact same thing. it’s ridiculous that daisy haters described her as “laying around” and “being pampered” when raising kids is a ton of mental and emotional work
@@princeramblerose mhm. It is stupid that people would think that. They've obviously never been around kids for long lmao let alone 2 or more kids at once
Like yeah, she is very useful to the clan!! Raising kids is really hard, you have to take proper care and help guide another whole being! And this also benefits clams in so many ways, besides giving new warriors to the clan. They, as you mentioned, can help first-time mothers to give birth and raise kids, they also can raise kits who lost their parents. Permaqueens also allow she-cats who doesn’t want to stay in the nursery for long get back to the warriors duties faster (as in Squiffs case, I know she adopted the three, but it doesn’t change the point). And as other comment or mentioned, it will allow medicine cats have mates and kittens, while still doing their job, same for the female leaders! It honestly can solve so many problems in WC books and has an amazing potential. Elaborating on this idea in the books themselves will make them more interesting. And it honestly will make warriors society treat she-cats much better than it is now.
It’s crazy that fans would accuse the series of sexism yet internalize that mindset on female characters that stay in the queens den and caring for kits by using it as a complaint. There are so many female characters that don’t do what Daisy does for as long as she did.
Daisy is such a good character! Glad to see her getting more love!
I hope they don't kill Daisy any time soon since I doubt there will be another character like her. Ferncloud was kind of similar and you see how they treated her. I guess Fernsong could take her role but they treated him like shit as well. It would be nice to get a nursery pov but then again this is the erins were talking about...
This deserves so much more attention! I never really cared about Daisy, but this video helped me see her character a lot differently. I never even considered or remembered the fact that she was basically pressured into joining ThunderClan, and that ThunderClan sort of used her for her kits.
The authors confirmed in some interview that Daisy and Spiderleg had a one night stand. Though he seemed to get closer with her and their kits in a later book...and then they killed him off.
I also noticed Fernsong wasn't seen in the nursery...UNTIL Spotfur's Rebellion where it's mentioned he spends most of his time in the nursery and he's the one always watching over his and Ivypool's kits in the story.
These in depth looks at individual characters is what I love about the Warriors community! I'd love to hear what you think of other characters, or groups!
Maybe I'm miss remembering or misunderstood. But Daisy coming on to CloudTail could be a cultural misunderstanding. If she was raised in a more open relationship kind of culture she could have just thought that was okay. And she is shown backing off when she realizes this isn't appropriate. So it's seems like a case of not understanding boundaries at first but realizing why she needs to back off. But again idk I'm getting back into the series so again maybe I miss remember something.
37:48 I'm pretty sure in one of the scenes of the last hope, Purdy gets caught bringing a mouse into the camp. And mouse fur said it was because he WANTED to hunt,but Purdy Denied and said it was because mousefur was hungry
When it comes to commenting on Brightheart's face I don't think it's just to show the ignorance of the character but to remind us - fandom who loves to just paint her with one eye closed and flowers growing out of the tiny scar - that Brightheart is horrendously disfigured and that she really shocks characters once they see her for the first time because she has half of her face missing, and it's not a "normal view" even for warriors standards. What happened to her was terrible and will never go away, left a permanent mark on her body. She is disabled and she has to live with it. And we do need reminding that she went through something horrible, because the readers, just like Thunderclan cats, seeing her everyday like this, get used to it and in the end turn completly numb. But then an outsider comes and reminds us that Brightheart is scared and has all the right to be insecure and fearing rejection (or never getting an apprentice because clans are just pretending that everything is fine while beeing ableistic - twofaceness is worst than just beeing mean but honest at this point in my opinion). Even Cloudtail forgot. For him his love for Brightheart was so obvious that, "why would anyone ever think that I could choose Daisy or any other cat?" well dude, LOOK AT YOUR WIFE she has all the right to be insecure, it's easy to get used to seeing something, way harder to get used to living with it.
Great video!! I remember also falling into the category of ""girl" who rejected traditional femininity and therefore disliked perma-queens" back when I was first reading the series when I was 11-12 so listening to a more in-depth analysis of her and her recent appearances as an adult was nice and I can say I definitely appreciate her more! I stopped reading after The Last Hope, so I enjoy learning about what the more minor characters are up to these days.
I think an important thing people need to keep in mind in regards to how the Clans perceive queens and characters like Daisy is that the Erins (or Harper Collins at least) are... very "traditional", we'll say; they want little girls to want to grow up and become housewives (hence the regular struggle of "do I have kits/a family and be happy or go forward with my career" struggle seen in many prominent female characters.) They wouldn't push an agenda which made mothers or homemakers out to be useless or unnecessary. (Hence why we can't have actually canon LGBTQ+ characters in the series.)
While Warriors is a universe with its own society and rules, it's still written by (many different) humans with their own ideas of what that society should look like/mirror and their ideas for that are very clear when you take a step back from the fantasy world and view it from a slightly more objective perspective. The rules and structure of their society didn't just... happen because the cats decided it. It was written intentionally by adult humans.
I was the same in middle school (god i was stupid), but i always helped out with the kids or cooking, I had a reputation for it. But yeah, it was always really annoying to see so many female warriors get stuck in that role. Seeing Squilf not be as involved i thought was kinda cool 'cause it showed the communal aspects of the clans, which i felt was more present in the og series (at least from my perspective), and seeing Hollyleaf grapple with it was really cool to see as well. Of course the "fake barren" plot and the adoption kinda sours the motive and interaction behind that convo a bit (or makes it more sad, because Squilf might've seen Hollypaw not wanting kits as a rejection of something she "never" would've gotten anyway - god i hate that that was a lie. I just wish there weren't so many stories of "women have to reject a career" for kids, many cultures (including the clans) are more communal, so the lack of "it takes a village" which arguably would've given more clan bonding (and wouldn't you want future apprentices to like you anyway) frustrated me. But of course, this is a traditionally minded group of adult (and I think yt) women writing the series, so of course its gonna be blended in (though the inclusion of ancestor worship as a religion is interesting from that meta perspective).
Ah I’m so glad to see people coming around! After I read her novella, I totally fell in love with her character. For all new Daisy fans, I recommend to you the best ship, Daisy and Squirrelflight. You’re welcome :)
Oo I might look into that ship, never heard it before!
Daisy and Squirrelflight is so fucking good thank you. Eating this up rn. Because Bramblestar was so shitty and Squirrelflight shows lots of compassion to kittypets bc her father, the leader, was a kittypet too!
AAAAAA I love this ship so muchhhhhh!! Gdevyxshbxshb 😭
I love permaqueens, nobody can tell me they don't have a use. I'm also a sucker for specialized roles- in a lot of fanwritten stuff I see there are lots of these. Like builders, Watchers, messengers, spiritual guides, strategists, poison checkers ect. I love the idea that clans would make sure every cat has a purpose, whether they're disabled or pregnant or whatever.
Thank you for this video!
My own mother decided (on her own) to be a stay-at-home Mom while my Dad worked (since he got paid more anyway). My Mom was met with hostility from other women about how "anti-feminist" that decision was, when, as you point out in your video, just because someone doesn't have to doesn't mean they can't choose to live a more traditionally feminine lifestyle.
Also, being "just" a stay-at-home Mom? Raising kids isn't a relaxing fun time, there's no "just" about it. It's not a small feat.
I think the fans hating on Daisy and Ferncloud because they decided to be permaqueens while fans love Fernsong for just talking about the idea?? I think it shows some underlying sexism in our society and what we perceive to be one gender's standard, and another gender's extra hard work.
Yes, tank you for saying this!
i absolutely LOVE the point about daisy keeping her name. i always thought that suited her character but i didnt know how to describe why. you got it!!
i definitely did not spoil myself
Daisy was not a character I thought about very often, but I was always comforted when she was present in a scene. Her role as a nursery queen was a breath of fresh air when stacked against so many battle-focused she cats. She didn’t need to compete with the rest of the cast because she was one of a kind.
As a kid I always struggled with fandom stuff like what your role would be in Warrior Cats, because I didn’t see myself in the female warrior or medicine cat characters. Was being able to have a romantic relationship worth the risk of being killed everyday in this world? I didn’t think so. I also found the common medicine cat saying, “the clan are my kits” to be a bit hollow because (female) medicine cat characters often had kits anyways, and when they did they didn’t have a role in raising them or any other kit for that matter. Jayfeather sure as hell wasn’t going to spend much time in the nursery, so to me it stands to reason that the role of a permanent nursery queen ought to be a semi-official role, if not fully official.
Not gonna lie I was tearing up a little bit when you covered the end of her novella. She's literally the ThunderClan Mom and yes I will get emotional about this
I love the nursey queen role honestly. Considering we have more than enough warriors currently in the Clan more variety is lovely
I can see the owners taking the kittens if they were sickly or the mother flea infested and the kittens needing to be cleaned. They also could have taken the kits to vaccinate them or take them to the vet to check for disease because the parents are barn cats and could have diseases that could have harmed the kits. Another reason could be that they wanted to find all the kits and then the mother so that they can be in a nursery shed or someplace safer. Or they could be stupid but thats no fun to think~
They don’t bring Floss’s kits back that’s the thing. Or take Floss with them. They’re just gone
@@GracieFitzpeter maybe they were selling them
@billcipher8645 Maybe they're one of those hard-core farms. Like the ones who think controlling the population of cats is by... *yanno*. Unfortunately, used to be common for some farmers to do when they didn't want new cats.
@@Wolf-Chalk That's what I was thinking and I hate that idea but there are people that think like that, especially the more rural you get. I guess there's also the chance that they thought the kittens weren't being taken care of for some reason and took them to bottle feed? Or maybe Floss was sicker for longer than Daisy and Smokey thought and it wasn't safe for her to nurse the kits for some reason?
With Daisy, I didn't dislike her, in fact i respected her. I just thought she was boring, but ever since her novella, I started to like her more. I honestly think her novella was one of the most important/impactful one I've ever read from Warriors. I went into it expecting to be bored, but came out of it really moved. Love ya, Daisy and all other catmoms out there! 😸
I loved Daisy so much as a kid that I named my cat after her. I literally don’t understand the hate for her she’s so precious
Daisy was always a character I loved to see. I remember having my mind blown that a cat would refuse to rename themselves. The thing is that Warriors is full of culture clash metaphors. Having someone be in charge of their own identity and say "yeah I get it but, actually, i want a piece of my own culture." If Brook had actually joined the Clans, I'm sure no one would say anything about her if she didn't change her name. Stormfur didn't change his either when he joined the Tribe but nobody even sniffed at that.
Also i just watched all of your nursery queen essays totally out of order lol.
I do not mind Daisy. The actual issue I had was the Brightheart-Cloudtail-Daisy love triangle drama thing. Brightheart doesn't deserve that.
This has made Daisy one of my favorite characters
*Adds Daisy to list of favorite female cats*
I really love daisy, when I was reading the warrior books I immediately love daisy as a queen, queens are characters I really wanna see more I just wanna see more about them like daisy not like they are useless it is just that they choose to become a permanent queen cause they see caring for kits is better than being a warrior
Like they bitching daisy when ferncloud didn’t fight a lot when she was alive she was appreciated after sacrifice herself for brightheart and her kittens honestly I am glad daisy is helping the clans in the 6th cycle
I don't have a lot of warriors cats read as I borrowed the books from a friend who I haven't been able to get them from in while, but I loved Daisy so much, and it didn't really occur to me that others mightn't like her. At least not for being a permanent queen. She's such a great character and I'm glad this video is here to give her some more love ^-^
This art is wonderful! I agree so much! (ALSO CATS CAN ALWAYS HAVE BABIES EVEN IF THEY ARE SUPER OLD what even is that point that person made?!?)
Thank you for this video, this made me realize how much I love Daisy’s character and development
32:35 I am looking forward to the Repeat Until Death Spiderleg MAP. it explores his grief and why he alienates himself from daisy and his kits
Daisy is one of my favourite background characters and is one of the active reasons I tried to at least keep up with the series after omen of the stars, poor gal has been through so much and gets so much hate for reasons similair to why they love ferncloud
A 50 minute video talking about something I’ve been thinking about a LOT recently? HELL YEAH!!!!!! Thank you for this!!! :D
I love your warrior cats videos! keep going :)
The apparent reason people hate Daisy is why I hate Tree. He does NOTHING. He doesn’t fight, doesn’t hunt, doesn’t border patrol, doesn’t heal, doesn’t help with kits. His job is to “mediate” but look at the newest arc, he has done nothing to subdue fighting and conflict. Like I get he can contact ghosts, but so can Rootspring and Rootspring still contributes to his clan. It just irks me that characters like Ferncloud and Daisy get flack when Tree doesnt even do his job.
yeah people have argued that instead of tree and rootspring and bristlefrost and shadowsight that it should have just been rootspring and bristlefrost or that tree and shadowsight are just. pointless
Daisy and Ferncloud have always been some of my favorite characters, and honestly I hate that they don't get enough love
Every time you realease a new video I get so excited, thank you!
Daisy has become one of my favorite characters over time, but I do think my initial feelings of her were colored by me reading certian books out of order, i.e. the Graystripe Graphic Novels.
When I was younger I really liked Millie a lot more, since she was a cat who also joined later in life, but put in the effort to be a warrior.
Nowadays, after re-listening to the series with a new outlook, Daisy is such a lovely character- who stands in opposition to the typical cats in ThunderClan. She's refreshing!
I really like Daisy, as well as Fernsong for being the closest we’re probably going to get to a new clan role being added. I also like tree for the same reason. I feel like the books could really benefit from their being more roles in the clan besides warrior, medicine cat, deputy and leader. I feel like the addition of these roles could nicely shake up the storyline and flesh out the character in those roles more. Caretaker would be a great start, but I also think den maker, messenger, and field medic would also be great roles to add.
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I used to find Daisy annoying when I was younger too, but as I've grown up, like a lot of people I have learnt to have a lot of respect for her character. Becoming a single mother who brings her family into a completely foreign place so that she can give them a better life would have been TERRIFYING. And while she doesn't adjust to some things, I think she adjusts to others wonderfully. In particular I respect that even after once being mates with Spiderleg she doesn't cling to him in desperation. She scolds him because of how little he is involved in the lives of his children. She seems content without really having a partner and I find that admirable.
Gosh I was so excited to see this video in my recommended; Daisy is a character that I feel is really sidelined and treated with so much vitriol by the fandom when it just isn't... deserved, I think. Like sure personal taste and all that, but it really went beyond that in my opinion. Really, it's been a relief to see people starting to appreciate her more for the most part in recent years. Fantastic video; I loved your analysis of her!
How can someone actually hate Daisy?
Personally I never hated Daisy. She always filled an important role and people that diss her for choosing to stay in the nursery obviously has never thought about how hard it is to keep an eye on children when you're fucking exhausted from giving birth, nursing and then being anxious to get back to your job.
God it's been so long since I read these books, but even I remember how messed up it felt when leafpool named daisy's kits without her permission. Also, I hope it's not rude to ask, but why is skyclan censored? (Again, I havent read these books in years, so I dont know if there's something wrong in them that most people agree on)
I willl always appreciate Daisy, the ultimate Aunty. I know in ceritan cultures there's actually a term for "second mother". I'm not from one of those cultures, but between my grandmother living with me and some extended family living with me for a few years, I had relatives who somewhat filled this role. Honestly, if I were a clan cat, I'd probably do the same, heck, I was KNOWN for skipping classes in school to help with younger grades and it was just, normal for me. I always liked her inclusion, and like the idea of job diversity more. Love this gal!
girlboss, she is a very good mother and is a very sweet character
The fandom: hates a a cat for being the ‘same’ and un-unique like everyone else
Also the fandom: hates a cat for being unique and different from normal clan cats
You've returned with more battle cat stuff! Heck yeah
The pains of having Daisy as one of your favorite characters :(
She did when the dark forest rose fight that is please defend the over villainized nramblestar
I clicked cause I thought this was a defense of my homeroom teacher's cat Daisy. Girl's been in the local Porvoo news-
Daisy is my favorite.
We need nursery mothers!! Yasss!!!
the thumbnail is so funny it looks like ur defending ur cat after she peed in ur moms closet.
Awesome video! U made some really good points!
If there was a Daisy in Shadowclan at the time of Brokenkit/star then he might not have turned out so bad...
Did everyone forget purdy?
Reading her novella and enraged that Smoky is given this narrative that he wanted his kits with Daisy which I’m positive he didn’t care at all in the book it happened in. Now Daisy is this villain who tOoK ThE kIdS. Correct me if I’m wrong but Smoky did not care right???
Wonderful video.
The people who say she doesn't do anything have NEVER TAKEN CARE OF CHILDREN, let alone several
Realness, I love Daisy so much
I gotta admit as a kid first reading the new prophecy, I REALLY hated Daisy, especially after the Cloudtail thing. But looking back on everything now as a more mature adult, girl is hella underrated considering how helpful she was. She pretty much was a second and/or stand in mother to the majority of kirs born in ThunderClan after she chose to stay there permanently and I think people saying shes "useless" are being so unfair. Looking after kits is a HARD job, hell I'd even go a step further and say its even HARDER than fighting, hunting and patrolling. Not to mention she was probably a huge source of knowledge and support/comfort for first-time mothers and she-cats raising litters as single mothers alike. ThunderClan would've been NOTHING without cats like Daisy and Ferncloud. ❤
I think Purdy had a same role as Daisy in the clan but for the elders (well, mostly Mousefur). After all he took great care of her when she was grieving Longtail, finding the best food for her, keeping her company...
But yeah, most of the hate for Daisy and Ferncloud are unfounded and blatantly sexist. People just couldn't accept that some she-cats could choose to do something else that is not "the norm". And it's also pretty hypocritical cause I'm sure that a lot of those who complained about fictional cats having "too much babies" are the same people who would find it anormal for people like me not to want kids. (And also, I don't know if you noticed but all the cats blamed for overbreeding are only females, on the Ferncloud part, no one ever blamed Dustpelt, even though he definitely had something to do with it. Which clearly shows the argument is all about sexism.)
Anyway, but I'd have to say though that I feel like Ferncloud was way less developed than Daisy. Once she had kits it felt like everything about her was kits, and even before I don't remember anything special about her. Maybe that's an issue on my part, I didn't pay too much attention, but for me Daisy was given way more personality and character (with her whole backstory and how she dealt with becoming a clan cat). Maybe that's just personal, I don't know.
I really would like if you would do rain flower because of her and crooked kit and how she was probably the the worst mother in the Whole fandom. She’s very selfish but also there’s the medicine cat who is there for crooked kit , she’s more of a mother to crooked kit than rain flower would ever be because rain flower unlike golden flower and gray stripes kits she looks at her son with discuss and hate and I feel she needs a video about her not only her and crooked kit but also her other son, she keeps her other son by her side 20.4.7 but pushes crooked kit away like he’s crow-food and than when crooked kit grew up he grew up to have sliver stream so a video ether about crooked star/kit or rain flower.
I relate
My biggest flex is that I never hated Daisy💪
Holy sh!t Tawnypelt killed Berrynose? Damn.
53:17 ᓚᘏᗢ C A T
genuine question, not trying to come off as rude or anything, but how come you censored skyclan? is there any specific reason or anything?
Daisy: Cloudtail is nice and I like him
Brightheart: that’s my husband
Spiderleg: I’ll date you Daisy
Daisy: Yay-
Spiderleg: but no kits
Daisy: *ima just go create rosepetal and toadstep*
You do know how kittens are made right?? Maybe spiderleg should’ve wrapped it up if he didn’t want kids
@@belughlegosi it's called a joke. I also think spiderleg did want kits but well...Daddy problems. Dustpelt is his dad and he doesn't like outsiders much
Imagine having to justify sexism. Thats it. Its sexism. The reason people hate daisy, ferncloud, and mapleshade is just pure sexism.
Not Maple Shade, but yeah otherwise sexism.
@@kitarozushi Mapleshade is indeed sexism, and I'd bring up the article about it but youtube doesn't like links. When it gets to the point that people say shit like she wanted her kits to die, draw her permanently pregnant in the dark forest as a "punishment", and draw her literally CHOKING appledusk in a birdcage, and other horrible things, and nobody says ANYTHING, but a map that heaven forbid has a slightly off representation that could be misconstrued as mental illness even if its not portraying mental illness gets DEATH THREATS and gets cancelled, its misogyny to blame, as this fandom is full of misogynists.
I don't like Ferncloud cause she had zero personality. She was never anything more than background nursery queen. Daisy at least was unique.
Queens should be allow to leave the second kits are not relying only on milk