The idea of having all three nursery queens- Daisy, Sorreltail, and Ferncloud just absolutely decimating dark forest cats who came to hurt their kits would have been amazing. I believe that Mapleshade actually told others in the book to target the nursery, can you even image how cool it would have been to have Ferncloud take her down? A cat who has lost so many kits, who has every right to be as angry as Mapleshade is. But instead she turned her grief into love, and cared for the whole clan as if they were her kits instead. The hard thing about Warriors having so many writers and no series bible is that cool scenes like this are completely missed because the authors don’t remember these details enough to draw parallels. Amazing video grace, have a happy holiday season!
I mean, ferncloud had the support of her clanmates while Mapleshade had no to comfort her. I’m pretty sure ferncloud would’ve turned out like mapleshade too had she been in her situation
@@Loaves_of_Cat The way Thunderclan (and to an extent Riverclan) treated Mapleshade definitely wasn’t okay, but even before the reveal Mapleshade had been pretty manipulative and jealous. Ferncloud had always been pretty kind, so even if she was shunned and thrown out, I don’t think she would have stooped so far to planning to attack other queens’ kits
What really bothered me about the Darkest Hour was the Mapleshade moment when she was like "kill all the kits, then the queens will have nothing to fight for!" Like LMAO someone didn't read Mapleshade's Vengence 🤣
Oh writers. . . I heard about that too. Mapleshade's backstory is LITERALLY about her losing her kits, and I've heard about some occasions on future books of her saying "kill the kits" and laughing at kits' deaths. . . Really, I think somebody didn't check one of the factors that made her go crazy.
@AMidlej seriously!!! It makes 0 sense for Mapleshade to become a villain out of love for her kits and a determination to avenge their deaths, only to go around laughing at babies dying. Why are the erins sp terrible at writing villain. you can be evil without killing babies lmfao. Mapleshade can maintain her love for children and still be a horrible person. She should be beating brokentails ass for killing kids, no becoming his clone
@@puppiekit I think we’re all forgetting that Mapleshade’s introduction was in Crookedstar’s Promise… she manipulated and emotionally abused Crookedstar starting from when he was a kit/young apprentice just because he was related to Reedshine. Mapleshade has *never* shown love for children besides her own and even that has a basis in them being an extension of herself/proof of her mateship with Appledusk. her entire character is being jealous, entitled, and narcissistic.
what happened with ferncloud was disgusting, and I'm glad she's finally getting the recognition from the fandom she always deserved. Personally when i first read through warriors earlier last year, I always loved fern and daisy. I really hope you do more warriors videos like this, especially about characters who were (or are still) hated by the fandom for reasons they don't deserve.
I teared up while you were talking about how she should've killed Brokenstar. Ferncloud is my favorite character in warriors as she reminds me of my own mother and who I want to be some day (I don't want children of my own, but I hope to be a teacher and possibly take custody of my little brother's for personal reasons) and the way they put her out felt so unfair and horrible. I think the people who made fun of her and mocked her character just for having a lot of kids were seriously in the wrong, and even though she's just a fictional character in a fantasy kitty world she'll always have a special place in my heart!
When you mentioned how Ferncloud could've taken Brokenstar down with her, I remembered that Firestar had gotten a life of protection like a mother would for her kits. He was expecting it to feel like what he saw mothers usually do, be soft, loving and caring to their kits. But he instead is in pain and struggling to stand because a mother like Ferncloud wouldn't just be soft and warm, it's a fierce, strong love that fight tooth and nail to protect their kits! If I recall correctly, he had to quickly recover because he was not prepared for it to get his next life. I may not have everything correct as it's been a LONG time since I read the first arc but I remember his nine lives ceremony somewhat
this is exactly what happened. firestar was left shocked by the intensity of that life and was totally expecting it to be opposite. wasn't it the life of love or something he received from i think spottedleaf? that one was soft and fuzzy, and i specifically recall him expecting the mother's life to be similar
On an actually serious note, I'm just as infuriated as you for how Ferncloud was handled. I can completely understand the need to cull out the cast regularly, the cast in recent books is certainly becoming bloated and the authors have gotten too chicken to really shake it up as of late. But these authors just can't be trusted to give good send offs to their interesting secondary characters and Ferncloud is a particularly egregious example. It's astonishing how these authors just completely drop the ball when chances are handed to them in a silver platter. As you said, Brokenstar vs. Ferncloud should've been her ultimate badass moment, but nope. If these authors spent a few minutes more thinking through what they write, the series would be so much better, but I suppose that's the problem ain't it? These ghost writers are made to churn out the books so quickly and it definitely shows.
I haven't read warriors in 15 years but I have been in catch-neuter and release programs since then and it's genuinely funny how people slut shame a cat for having 3 litters even though real world feral cats will usually have 2 litters a year and go into their first heat around 6-9 months old, like its more *unusual* that an adult female cat over 3 years old would only have *one* litter in this situation. they're cats, they go into heat the second their current litter is weaned, that's just how they are
Because while we understand that cats rapidly breed and are not monogamous, they wanted to write humans in cat bodies so they can only have X amount of babies without being sluts.
I think you should talk about Brambleclaw's downfall. When he was introduced as Tigerstars son he was mainly used as someone for Fireheart to freak out about until the fire when he saves him. Time skip to The New Prophecy he builds a relationship with Squirrelpaw soon to be Squirrelflight. Then when she shares her suspicions he basically treats her like garbage always finding a way to scold her or make her feel bad and Ashfur and Squirrelflight become more close causing Brambleclaw to come out to both of them because he was jealous. Then when Daisy arrives he uses Berrykit trying to get him to like him so when he becomes an apprentice he will be mentored by Brambleclaw giving him a chance to become deputy. He even is seen having an angry expression when Birchkit is apprenticed to Ashfur since he was the last kit they had in ThunderClan. When Leafpool found out about Brambleclaw training in the Dark Forest with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost she followed him out of camp and he angrily confronted her. Leafpool was vividly terrified of what Brambleclaw might do to her if he found out what she knew. And then seconds after she tells Squirrelflight she should be with Brambleclaw. Skip to The Power Of Three in the last book when the truth is revealed at the Gathering he shames Squirrelflight saying he would have helped her even though the Erin's stated if they told the truth early Leafpool would have been exiled. Then in Omen Of The Stars in Chapter One is states he never forgave her although not punishing her with the hardest tasks he made sure their paths never met throughout their duties. Later in Sign Of The Moon they are about to travel to the Mountains she asks if he would like her to tell Stormfur anything from him. He coldly tells her just to say he is missed and doesn't even seem to care as jayfeather can feel Squirrelflights pain as he doesn't even tell her to be careful or stay safe. He has just completely changed over the series it really needs to be talked about more
Upon looking into the Warrior cats family trees, I realized something. Ferncloud might have had many a kitten, but only two of those kittens (Birchfall and Spiderleg) have procreated, and of their own young, only Ivypool's kits remain in ThunderClan. If you're pointing fingers at who is to blame for the tangled mess of a Clan today, you'll want to look at Lionheart and Frostfur (with three kittens who each went on to have large litters), and before that were Adderfang and Swiftbreeze with the same number of kits assuring that all of our main cast is pretty much related anyway.
A lot of non-Firestar related cats have been killed off, Spiderleg’s kits died with no kits, Foxleap and Icecloud died, Hazeltail and Mousewhisker have no kits, etc. This lead to a lot of inbreeding, like with Ivypool/Fernsong who are both related through Firestar and Cloudtail and Stemleaf/Spotfur who are related through Brackenfur and Thornclaw.
As much as I love this series, I can't help but think how messed up it is that shecats are treated millions of times worse than tomcats, canon wise and in quite a few sub sections of the fandom. I haven't read the books since crookedstars promise came out so idk if it's improved but it doesn't feel like the way they treat shecats has improved over the series from what I've seen
About the double standards in Erin Hunters writing, one thing that bugs me A LOT is Mapleshade's Vengeance. Don't start talking that Mapleshade is evil, I know that, and I agree with you. She went mad, crimes all over and deserved to go to the DF. The thing that bugs me is this: Mapleshade: Has half-clan kits - Proceeds to get cast out of the clan, and denied entry of the clan of her ex-mate while grieving for the death of her kits Appledusk: Has half-clan kits - Doesn't even get a slap on the wrist, his current mate sticks up to him almost immediately, and only consequence is getting killed by Mapleshade at the end, but even then he wasn't the intended victim and jumped in front of Reedshine. Sure, Mapleshade lied more and the leader of her clan had a reason (she used his dead son as a way out, and they believed that Appledusk killed him), but the fact that no one at Riverclan showed some sort of sympathy and that the leader didn't have any PERSONAL vendetta against her, besides her being Thunderclan, made me mad that Apple stayed with no consequence whatsoever Ah yes, the elephant in the room FRECKLEWISH: Doesn't save kits because couldn't swim, and thought the Riverclan Patrol would help them, and had a LOT OF emotional trauma relates to Birchface at the time - DARK FOREST! All Mapleshade's male victims went to Starclan, but curiously Frecklewish did not. I wonder why? Anyways, happy holidays!
Personally I like the idea of yellowfang being the one to finish off brokenstar for good, he was her rotten spawn after all, but everything else is spot on. I mentioned it on your daisy video, but the ferncloud situation is disgusting, iam just glad to see her being more appreciated by the Fandom now, even though she didn't deserve a lick of hate she got in years past.
I think Yellowfang killing Brokenstar again was a little bland and predictable tbh (no judgement to folks who liked it!), seeing as she already did it once and neither of them have really had any development since then so it was just stuff we'd already seen without bringing much new to the table if that makes sense? Like, Yellowfang already had her dramatic killing her son moment, let Fern shine haha
I liked the idea of DF cats getting killed off by different characters based on their actions. Brokenstar should have been killed by Ferncloud or Daisy, as a nail in the coffin that he should have learned to stop messing with children god dammit, and Hawkfrost should have been struck down by either Ivypool, Hollyleaf, Tawnypelt, or, for extra flair, Mothwing. Crooked star’s ghost killing Mapleshade could have been cool, and it would have been neat to see Thistleclaw or darkstripe be taken down by Brambleclaw.
OH MY GOD I JUST REALIZED SOMETHING. Didn’t Firestars’s dad Jake have 8 kits?!? He had Scourge(Tiny), Ruby, and Socks with Quince and then Firestar, Princess, Filou, Tommy, and Luna with Nutmeg. Why is no one talking about that, he literally had more kits than Ferncloud and with all 8 surviving into adulthood at leasts two having children and a long line of powerful descendants. And that’s assuming he didn’t have a third mate and more kits off screen somewhere. We know he had another love interest with Tallstar so why wouldn’t he have more mates(and kits). And no one’s calling Jake a baby machine! Dear god this just makes the Ferncloud situation even more stupid. 🤦♀
It feels like the Erins are being low-key sexist, and they just don't realise it... (This also applies to the parts of the fandom that called Ferncloud a baby factory or other subtly sexist stuff.)
Lots of good points. Thank you for making this video. Ferncloud definitely deserves more positive attention. It always rubbed me the wrong way when Vicki said the fans were to blame for Ferncloud dying. I mean, as the main author, Vicki had the power to do more with her character or she could have just ignored the fans complaints. People complain. There will always be people who will never be happy with anything. That shouldn’t mean doing anything to shut hem up, in my opinion. On a side note, please make a Goldenflower video!
Could you make a video about Sorreltail? She was unfortunately killed off unfairly as well because of her and her husband (Brackenfur) being “happy” together.
I appreciate you addressing the age gap and creepy content and not sugar coating it, even if it wasn't entirely the focus. There's a term for when an adult who knows a child personally and pushes themselves into their lives. Then waits for a child to be an adult and then makes a move on them, it's called the jailbait wait. It's entirely a grooming tactic and super gross. I hate that it's in these books now.
first off-- loved the video! second, this is just a tiny detail but I really appreciate how you acknowledge that TIGERSTAR killed Brindleface, not the dogs. I see people claiming the dogs killed her kind of a lot, and it's an oversight that really bugs me. Saying the dogs killed her makes Tigerstar's dog plot seem a lot less dastardly than it truly was, since he killed an innocent queen to give the dogs a taste of cat blood. TY for being careful to get all the little details right!
Honestly if Dustpelt wasn't JUST made a warrior before she was an apprentice it would bother me more. As it is, to me it comes off as a 19 year old crushing on a 16 year old or something similar. I view fresh apprentices as 15-16. So yeah, it raises an eyebrow, but I don't think it's as gross as it could be, like other examples in the series.
@@Loaves_of_Cat Yes very true. The age gaps only bother me when it's a clearly toxic relationship, cause that's paralleling real world abusive behavior. In the end it's fiction, so we can take what we want from the text or not.
I always imagined the gap between the beginning and end of an apprenticeship as about the same time you'd spend in middle and high school, so like 11 ish to 18. Which is a far more concerning view of the relationship LOL I still think it's strange to be interested in someone in such a different stage of life (entering a role you just left is what gets me, not the Number of years) I get Why it doesn't bother you as much that way Tbh I think it's sort of the writings fault if it's hard to tell what we're supposed to read these characters as. They're capable young adults when the plot calls for it and naive kids when it would cause interesting conflict. Another example of cats changing on a whim to suit the needs of the plot rather than having consistent structure unfortunately :(
I think the relationship is 100% still weird though because of the power dynamic. It’s been so long since I read the books so I don’t remember if this actually happened or not, but I feel like any common sense leader (again can’t remember who it is HAHA) would have switched her mentor at least. Dustpelt would have held most of the power over Fernpool. And even if their age gap is small, it’s much worse because of how even human teenagers vary a LOT by age. (Like, a 13 and 16 year old will have very different interests and perceive the world differently) Tangent over! Even if nothing too terrible happened with Fernpool and Dustpelt’s relationship it still should have been held off until they were full warriors. A lot of young kids read warriors and I worry that this might have made some kids more trusting of adults they shouldn’t. I mean... It definitely influenced me to run around meowing on the playground. So...
the painting of ferncloud and all her babies is so sweet 🥺❤ i would like to apologize for 5th grade me who thought "haha ferncloud baby machine" jokes were funny
All the cats are related. It's pretty hard to avoid incest in Warriors, considering the code doesn't allow half-clan relationships and clans have like only 20 cats. Thank Starclan Thunderclan let in kittypets, barn cats and cats from other clans or they'd all be horribly deformed.
Remember when WindClan allowed 'visitors'? I imagine there were some circumstances there where they might have joined the clan. But for plot purposes they make cats not born into the wild most of the time unable to go wild except... irl most cats except maybe some pedigree cats like Himalayans (though some might surprise you) can easily go wild... some domesticated cats still catch mice (and sadly birds) that aren't barn cats.
Loved this video! Would really enjoy seeing more videos like this, Goldenflower has always interested me and on another note… a Sorreltail video would be awesome! You don’t have to of course but I think it’s really interesting how Sorreltail and Leafpool are friends, two female cats in warriors being friends when they aren’t related is kind of rare if I’m being honest? Also hoping this video gets popular enough so that Scorchfur, Snowbird and Skystar are mentioned as tied for having the most kittens on the wiki lol.
Wouldn't it have made morse sense for Leopardfoot to be around Pinestar's own age and that's why their kits were born so weak? Then there wouldn't be the age gap or not as big of one. I don't even think the authors factor in age gaps they just see a single cat and this other single cat and go OH... lets let them have a litter even when they didn't have much interaction before that?
I barely know anything about warrior cats but I'm genuinely surprised that it's popular given the lore inconsistencies, authors being petty and allowing fans to influence your works, not knowing the characters relations to each other, etc.
I know someone else probably commented it, but I'm gonna ask anyway! I have always loved Goldenflower, as I am a total perma-queen apologist. Could you please do a video surrounding her? I'd especially love to hear a segment about her and the very underutilized idea that Swiftpaw was her son, and how his death was very close to the time Brambleclaw and Tawnypelt were born.
I agree that ferncloud was done dirty. And her death actually shocked me tbh because I didn’t know she was so hated in the fandom at the time. But ferncloud died at the end of the last hope and by the next major book, bramble stars storm the Erin’s kill Dustpelt too. It’s kinda a bigger plot then ferncloud sadly.
The Nutcracker's The Waltz of Flower playing while you're explaining the double standards should not be this funny. I also feel infuriated and agree with all of your arguments but the background music got me bad 😭
While I absolutely think the double standard with male characters not being ridiculed by fans is present and should be eradicated, another problem is the writers themselves. The amount of pressure put on female parents to be good mothers + the expectation that fathers are just "supplemental parenting" is a huge problem in real life, and I think the writers tend to reflect it in their work (not on purpose, I think they just kinda do it without thinking) Fathers in warrior cats, ESPECIALLY in the old days, were super absent compared to the mothers in a weird way that managed to both diminish the moms AND dads as "people"/characters. I think Part of the reason dustpelt doesn't get ridiculed is because frankly, the kits aren't always Written like they're his. Not gonna lie, it comes off like most male partners in early warriors books love their Wives but dont care about their kids at all. All of the responsibility is put on ferncloud--why did Cody have to help her with the kits instead of.. I don't know, her HUSBAND and the father of her children?? It's shitty writing but it's shitty because it's a reflection of the way real life heterosexual parents are viewed. :( TL;DR: because of sexism and bad writing, Dustpelt doesn't really Act like much of a dad very often, which is a part of why you hear them all called Ferncloud's kits/he's not given the same amount of scrutiny. Ferncloud has been linked to her children by the writers in a way that never happens with the non POV character fathers in warrior cats and it diminishes the characters of both parties.
The only dad that cares for him kits on the old books, was Graystripe. Like, he joined another clan just for care of him kits.. yea, bc its the only way that connect him with silverstream, but if she dont have dead, I think Graystripe will care anyway.
This is an amazing video ^^ Also I have to say, tysm for talking about how disgusting Dustpelt's interest in FernPAW was. So many overlook this creepy ass dynamic. It's refreshing to see it get addressed in a video. I have no idea why the erins wrote that crap in. Such a simple fix would've been to just move all those interactions into the second arc and change them to fit the context of 2 warriors. It did not need to be a creepy predatory relationship. Also killing her off just because of the misogyny in the fandom was gross. I get Vicky's annoyance at it but that's exactly why she should've kept Ferncloud ALIVE. Had her kill Brokenstar and show the sexist pricks that Ferncloud COULD put up a fight.
kinda off topic but i always hated how apprentices are treated, everyone expects them to act like adults when they are teenagers/children, also everyone expects them to be maturely developed and that being nice to them is unnecessary, i find this pathetic everyone needs encouragement and to be taught with patience. also all warriors throw a tantrum when they have to HELP the apprentices, but the apprentices are forced to do everything with their mouths shut??? with this kinda of example??? got it.
I was so furious how they treated Ferncloud. I adored her and they could've done more with her. I personally would've loved if she fought much longer, even if she didn't hit the final blow, doing the majority of the damage before someone has to come in. But i think having Yellowfang do it was a horrible choice. She already killed Brokenstar, she already had her choice. It made Brokenstar's death so... lame. If they had to have someone swoop in it 1. Shouldn't have been Yellowfang 2. Should've been with him described as struggling to hold himself up after finishing her off. 3. It Should've been someone who was close to her that wasn't her mate or kits(other then Birchfall, i think Birchfall going in to to finish what his mother started would also be really cool-). I personally think Cloudtail would've been a great choice, or Brightheart! Because Ferncloud died defending her foster brother's second litter and mate/old friend. One of them swooping in to finish the blow on an barely standing Brokenstar would've been so much more meaningful and emotional. Ferncloud was all Cloudtail had left of his foster family other then their kin, and he already had fought side by side with Dovewing. I just think there were better choices then just repeating their first deaths over again. At least with Hawkfrost, Ivypool was more involved. Either way I'd want Ferncloud to have done 90% of the damage. She was a strong cat who chose to care for the young of the clan. There was never anything wrong with her choice nor her having 3 liters.
I understand the authors more than likely wanted Yellowfang to be the one to finally kill Brokenstar, I 100% get the intent, but ffs Ferncloud being the one to take him down would have been SO impactful and such a strong moment. 2 Characters with literally polar opposite views taking eachother down would have been amazing and, like you said, would have actually been an awesome sacrifice. If they really needed that Yellowfang and Brokenstar interaction then just have it so that he is mortally wounded by Ferncloud and then Yellowfang rushes over to watch him die, maybe thrown in a quick arugment or whatever. They literally could have had it both ways, were Ferncloud goes out in a badass way and Yellowfang gets that final moment with her son, but no lol just kill Ferncloud because she ""had too many kids"" ok 🤪
On the Dustpelt situation, I think changing how he feels about Fernpaw in the OG series is crucial for the relationship to work. Instead of crushing on Fernpaw, maybe he senses how scared she is of Darkstripe and hisses at him or something. They become close friends before romance is even a thing.
Technically Brackenfur and Sorreltail don’t have that massive of an age gap, since Brackenfur was apprenticed at 3 moons. Thornclaw is a better gauge of the age gap. Sorrelkit was nearing 6 moons when she was poisoned if I recall correctly, with Thornclaw being just over a year old. So they’re about 6 moons apart give or take. Not as extreme as it appears (better than Leopardfoot and Pinestar).
Yeah i'd love to hear someone, anyone talking about the absurdity of Goldenflower as a forgotten/downplayed background character in TPB and TNP. [Poster cat for the phrase: Wasted potential!]
PLEASE!!! Do an analysis on Golden Flower! And another on the weird age gaps. This is the first vid that I've seen from you, and I'm interested in more content! You're awesome!
Ferncloud is actually related to cinderheart through brackenfur. Brackenfur's mom is frostfur, frostfur and brindleface are siblings, brindleface's daughter is ferncloud. Not that the cats would know this and I'm sure relationships that aren't direct never crossed the authors' minds. Pretty much every thunderclan cat is related in someway weather it's by blood or marriage...sadly I like dustpelt and ferncloud when I forget that he loved her when she was a new apprentice... which is a lot... I'm guilty for forgetting how old characters are when I don't need to remember at the moment. But when I think about it, it's disgusting! Even though she was apprenticed late she is still a child. Dustpelt loved her right out of the nursery. Even though it's said he has a SOFT SPOT for her it's obvious that he likes her. I was doing a warriors ship teir list (which I think would be a fun video idea for you btw) and I put them high up on the list...😫😖😩 I'm going to go change that now...
@@alcremishi1300 Don't forget Ivypool mate with her uncle/cousin or newphew. Dovewing mate with her uncle/cousin. I argee that Dust being Fern's uncle is weird but they are cat a lof of characters in book are mate with there relate. But at least that Dustpelt still waiting for Ferncloud become a warrior not like Thistleclaw and Spottedleaf thing. Also Sandstorm's parent is unknow there no scence in book said that Brindle and Red are her parent. Everyone just make Brindle and Red as her parent because there is no single cat at that time. So that don't mean Dust and Sand are uncle and nicely. Sorry for bad grammar. 🥲🙏
@@KebleStone didnt Vicky confirm that Redtail was Sandstorm's father? Well idk what happened, i guess its not confirmed YET because it isnt in the wiki. Please watch the whole vid, its still kinda creepy that Dustpelt waited for Ferncloud to be a warrior so they can be "mates". Plus, it isnt rlly grooming which is a good thing but he still had a crush on her when she was a young, keyword YOUNG apprentice. And don't worry, I didn' forget the ivypool and fernsong thing. Even so theres many related cat relationships and ivyfern + dustcloud is a pretty healthy relationship we get to see in the books.
@@KebleStone he only started to have a soft spot for Bluefur/star when she was a warrior/senior warrior by the way. He never showed any affections when she was an apprentice and kit.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! Another fantastic video from you 💞 I’m really loving all these videos you’ve been making on warriors’ background characters, specifically female characters that are often overlooked and underestimated by the narrative and the fans, I’d be totally down to see more stuff like this. Also your drawings are adorable!!
I always had a soft spot for Fern and Ash (and yeah, it broke my heart when I got to the Power of Three and surprise, Ash is a badguy now) just because of their roles in the original series. I think she should have gotten a much better sendoff than a couple of sentences and oops, dead now. Also your point about being worried about Daisy's bloodline being wiped out is literally me when Mistystar and Reedwhisker both went in one book. Like. Welp. There goes Bluestar's bloodline I guess. (Which I had a feeling would happen anyways because I'm sure people would have been making old man jokes about 'Reedstar' if that had happened.)
Love this video! It was really a shame to see how they killed off Ferncloud, I really like her character. I would definitely like to see a Goldenflower video, she's quiet an interesting character.
I think you should do squirrelFlight since there’s SO MUCH DRAMA OR ROMANCE lol and also don’t me explaining your self for the rants, I love them there one of the favorite things I like about your videos 💞
I'm just in awe of your channel! Resident Evil and Warriors in the same place? I'm surprised I didn't find you sooner, but I cannot wait to see what you have in store!
oh my god i thought i was the only one who started the series with Midnight on accident LMFAOO i was in like 2nd grade at the time and i was about to check out midnight (under the assumption that it was the first book) and my friend was like "i think you're supposed to start with (the actual first book)" and i was like Pffft nah i know what im talking about. i did NOT.
I would love to hear your perspective on Clear Sky’s redemption arc and how it failed (unless you feel it succeeded, then I’d like to hear your perspective on how it worked).
I was absolutely disgusted no surprise why I stay away from fandom and fan base because of some stupid toxic fan who thinks it’s ok to killed our beloved character like absolutely unforgivable
Also, I'm now curious if we'll see those new kits of Skystar's in the Riverstar super edition that's coming out next year... God, I hope Riverstar's super edition is better than the last two. Especially Onestar's, I did not like that one. Also, maybe there needs to be a limit to how many litters couples have now since there are possibly over 40 cats in thunderclan now.
Last comment I swear! Ferncloud did deserve more attention and love, even as a kid, I never liked the hate she received. Sure, it's sad to see how she was treated in the Fandom, and the comment from the author caught me off guard. I honestly wish we got more of the fight scene from her so we could see just how hard she fought for the kits in the nursery.
Oh. My. God. I can't express properly how much I want to see an AU MAP about Dustpelt being a, well, p*dophile and preying on Fernpaw/Ferncloud. If one of y'all makes this a reality I wanna get some credit :>.
Even if it's not in the book, I did find a confirmed information of Starflower having kits with ClearSky, Thunder AND LightningTail, oh yeah LightningTail's mate is or was Starflower
Okay I really want you to talk about this issue. When a Tom's mate dies, they'll likely take a new mate, see: Graystripe, Crowfeather, Maybe Stormtail, Tigerstar. But I have not come across a she cat who chose to move on and have kits with someone else except Daisy, and her new mate was awful to her. And when they do choose to move on, it's seen as them playing a Tom, see Dovewing and Squirrelflight. I just think it could be an interesting topic.
I often thought of Ferncloud like my mom, a giving and caring woman who feels called to love and nurture her children and others as well. She has six children, which could be considered a lot. But she wants and intended to have every one of them. I think we should put more respect on truly loving mothers
Honestly, I've been in the Warriors fandom since I first started reading the books in middle school (specifically Spring of 2013 when I was 12, so it's almost been 10 years) and I remember all of the "baby factory" comments from back in the day. I never gave it nearly as much thought as I should've, even as a teen girl, but I did still like Ferncloud's character. Truthfully, I haven't read past the first book of Power of Three yet, even after all this time, but knowing Ferncloud died because of such hateful comments pisses me off. I hate that she became hated over something the writers willingly did to her, and then made her suffer because of their shit choices. And why weren't we as a community holding the male cats to the same standard as the female ones? It definitely baffles me that Dustpelt never got the same treatment as Ferncloud. I actually really disliked Dustpelt, but mainly because he was an asshole in the first arc and never gave proper thought to the age gap or family relations between him and Fern either (until years later). I'm glad the community is recognizing past mistakes and fighting against old injustices, I wish the authors would start doing the same. I haven't read the new arcs, but I've heard many complaints of how the Erin's are still treating certain characters like shit for no rhyme or reason while praising others who don't deserve it. It bothers me more after I had came across a video last year about the imbalanced gender ratio in Warriors. There are far more male characters present and of importance than female characters, according to the stats from that video [If anyone wants a link, let me know and I'll go find the vid and send a link in the replies]. This unaddressed bias, whether accidental or not, irks me. You'd think the authors would know better when they're mostly comprised of women, it's really sad. I'm glad none of them have outright pulled a J.K. Rowling and openly discriminated against the LGBTQ+ (to my knowledge). That said, the fact that they have blatant sexist and biased views doesn't make much of a case for them either... Again, it can be unintentional, but with how many female characters they've done dirty and how many male characters have gotten a LOT of slack, I don't understand how they still don't recognize this issue. Thank you for talking about this, Gracie! I just found your channel today and binged most of your Warriors videos, and they're well-worded, super informational, and amazingly done. I can't wait to watch more! 😊🧡
There were so many weird age gaps in Warriors, but one that has been lingering in my mind is the off-book, confirmed relationship between RunningWind and DappleTail. The strangest thing in this pairing is that RunningWind was described in the books to be a very athletic warrior, whereas DappleTail was already an elder, so what would they even have in common? Also, let's not forget that DappleTail had a weird relationship with Stormtail, so it just feels like she's continuing a cycle of abuse. The sad part is that if the Erins wanted too, they could have made a cute platonic relationship between DappleTail and Running Wind, where Running Wind is like DappleTail's adopted grandson who visits her in the elder dens and encourages her to go outside for exercises.
If my family was in Warriors, my gosh we would be the center of mockery, as almost all in my family had many kids. My great grandmother had 6, my mother had 4 surviving and 3 miscarriages, my sister had 7 surviving and 1 miscarriage. Me and my brother are one of the very few that have less than 3 kids, with me having 1 and my brother having none. And as warriors that would mean whole litters instead of single kids per birth. My sister and her husband alone would have been able to fill almost an entire Clan on their own.
I do totally agree that Dustpelt and Ferncloud’s relationship is wildly inappropriate, however the way warriors is or isn’t animalistic isn’t completely set in stone. They’re fine together, but if someone is waiting for you to become an adult to get together, run a million miles away.
I think it wasn’t an appropriate relationship for a kids book. A lot of kids won’t see their relationship as a “cat thing” because a lot of younger kids just don’t fully understand the boundaries presented in fiction because they don’t have the context to understand that an warrior (adult) waiting for an apprentice (child) to become a warrior (adult) is insane.
@@wolfkitty42 or lot of kidsjust doesn't remember or really care about. Like myself. I read it, but meh... But well, then I remember I dealt at that time with my own trauma so oh well 🤣
Gonna play a tiny bit devil's advocate, but Ferncloud was not as young as most of the fandom makes her out to be. She was in the group of apprentices Cloudtail was, the group _Bluestar refused to make warriors, despite being old and deserving enough to be so_. That was what led to Swiftpaw's death and Brightheart's injury in the first place. They weren't quite as old, but she was older than most assume. Along with the fact her apprenticeship seemingly lengthened due to having to switch mentors to Longtail, she had a decently longer-than-average apprenticeship. Also this was early series, which should be taken with a grain of salt i feel. I think the Erins didn't realize how her and Dustpelt's relationship would come off, especially when in later books there is much more of a clear divide between apprentices and warriors in terms of age and dynamics.
"Scorchfur fathered Berryheart, Cloverfoot and Buster, despite being an apprentice when Snowbird was pregnant with them" WHY DOESNT ANYBODY TALK ABOUT THIS!? WTF!! THIS IS SOO MUCH CREEPIER THAN SNOWBIRD HAVING 9 KITS OR THE DUSTXFERN THING. 💀🥶🥶
23:20 UMMM WHAT? I know that Dustpelt going after Fernpaw upsets a lot of people, but I mean... at least they waited until she was an adult???? Snowbird literally had children with a CHILD WTH WHY AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT THIS
I consider that to be a retcon too like they no way had no idea who Snowbirds kits father was when they wrote Outcast and then just chose a random warrior when they decided she needed a mate without checking. But also yeeeeeaaa. Might go over that in a future video bc I didn’t know about that either
@@tell-me-a-story- well sure, but Patchpelt and Willowpelt being mates was a retcon as well and people went crazy about that (rightfully so). This is the same level
None of the cats in warriors have nearly enough kittens. For some reason they always have litters of like, two. Where are all the seven kitten litters that real cats would have? Just make less cats have kittens to fix the cluttering of charecters problem. Yes that would make most the cats related, buy marrying outside clans is allowed now, so inbreeding won't be a problem.
Weren't Ashpaw and Fernpaw apprenticed a bit late cause Bluestar didn't care and Fireheart had to do it? I don't think they were 6 moons, but still a bit young maybe.
I do wonder if Golden Flower had still been around for PoT and OotS if she would have had any influence still over her son Brambleclaw and his actions/reactions toward Squirrelflight. Then again I just think its bad writing... love the world... but the writing... they take characters and change their presonalitites to fit the plot rather than creating new characters or situations that doesn't turn the characters into something they weren't or focuses only on that one trait and amplifies it to the nth degree.
i dont think ferncloud shouldve been the one to fight brokenstar in the first place, i really feel liket hat was yellowfangs fight, the cat who ruined her original way of life was going to have his two chances of life demolished by his main victim, i think ferncloud should've been fighting someone like raggedstar, the one who encouraged brokenstars behavior in the first place
I really would like if you would do rain flower because of her and crooked kit and how she was probably the the worst mother in the Whole fandom. She’s very selfish but also there’s the medicine cat who is there for crooked kit , she’s more of a mother to crooked kit than rain flower would ever be because rain flower unlike golden flower and gray stripes kits she looks at her son with discuss and hate and I feel she needs a video about her not only her and crooked kit but also her other son, she keeps her other son by her side 20.4.7 but pushes crooked kit away like he’s crow-food and than when crooked kit grew up he grew up to have sliver stream so a video ether about crooked star/kit or rain flower.
![Firestar's (Genetically Realistic) Family Tree [CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lTEjQiyDjPk/mqdefault.jpg)
The idea of having all three nursery queens- Daisy, Sorreltail, and Ferncloud just absolutely decimating dark forest cats who came to hurt their kits would have been amazing. I believe that Mapleshade actually told others in the book to target the nursery, can you even image how cool it would have been to have Ferncloud take her down? A cat who has lost so many kits, who has every right to be as angry as Mapleshade is. But instead she turned her grief into love, and cared for the whole clan as if they were her kits instead. The hard thing about Warriors having so many writers and no series bible is that cool scenes like this are completely missed because the authors don’t remember these details enough to draw parallels. Amazing video grace, have a happy holiday season!
UGHHH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO AWESOME :( wish we had gotten that instead
Just imagine how mad Ferncloud would be if she knew what Mapleshade did to the poor Crookedkit
This will be the canon events in my head (I have not bothered to read anything past mid PO3)
I mean, ferncloud had the support of her clanmates while Mapleshade had no to comfort her. I’m pretty sure ferncloud would’ve turned out like mapleshade too had she been in her situation
@@Loaves_of_Cat The way Thunderclan (and to an extent Riverclan) treated Mapleshade definitely wasn’t okay, but even before the reveal Mapleshade had been pretty manipulative and jealous. Ferncloud had always been pretty kind, so even if she was shunned and thrown out, I don’t think she would have stooped so far to planning to attack other queens’ kits
Fans: Haha Ferncloud baby machine
Also Ferncloud's kits: *All but Birchfall are dead*
THANK YOU FOR POINTING THIS OUT
And birchfall has a scarred up butt everyone forgets about (I really like birchfall Idrk why)
What really bothered me about the Darkest Hour was the Mapleshade moment when she was like "kill all the kits, then the queens will have nothing to fight for!" Like LMAO someone didn't read Mapleshade's Vengence 🤣
Oh writers. . . I heard about that too.
Mapleshade's backstory is LITERALLY about her losing her kits, and I've heard about some occasions on future books of her saying "kill the kits" and laughing at kits' deaths. . . Really, I think somebody didn't check one of the factors that made her go crazy.
@@amidlej8237 I guess she thinks that since she can't have kits noone deserves them. But I sure would love to read about that in an actual book.
@AMidlej seriously!!! It makes 0 sense for Mapleshade to become a villain out of love for her kits and a determination to avenge their deaths, only to go around laughing at babies dying. Why are the erins sp terrible at writing villain. you can be evil without killing babies lmfao. Mapleshade can maintain her love for children and still be a horrible person. She should be beating brokentails ass for killing kids, no becoming his clone
@@puppiekit I think we’re all forgetting that Mapleshade’s introduction was in Crookedstar’s Promise… she manipulated and emotionally abused Crookedstar starting from when he was a kit/young apprentice just because he was related to Reedshine. Mapleshade has *never* shown love for children besides her own and even that has a basis in them being an extension of herself/proof of her mateship with Appledusk. her entire character is being jealous, entitled, and narcissistic.
@@_kaleido True! My point wasn't that she'd necessarily care but its asinine for her to think the queens wouldn't care!
what happened with ferncloud was disgusting, and I'm glad she's finally getting the recognition from the fandom she always deserved. Personally when i first read through warriors earlier last year, I always loved fern and daisy. I really hope you do more warriors videos like this, especially about characters who were (or are still) hated by the fandom for reasons they don't deserve.
yo! hey applefan432, it’s alex!! from iid. i completely agree. i love ferncloud so much
I teared up while you were talking about how she should've killed Brokenstar. Ferncloud is my favorite character in warriors as she reminds me of my own mother and who I want to be some day (I don't want children of my own, but I hope to be a teacher and possibly take custody of my little brother's for personal reasons) and the way they put her out felt so unfair and horrible. I think the people who made fun of her and mocked her character just for having a lot of kids were seriously in the wrong, and even though she's just a fictional character in a fantasy kitty world she'll always have a special place in my heart!
I teared up too!! I also teared up at the part about Cody
When you mentioned how Ferncloud could've taken Brokenstar down with her, I remembered that Firestar had gotten a life of protection like a mother would for her kits. He was expecting it to feel like what he saw mothers usually do, be soft, loving and caring to their kits. But he instead is in pain and struggling to stand because a mother like Ferncloud wouldn't just be soft and warm, it's a fierce, strong love that fight tooth and nail to protect their kits! If I recall correctly, he had to quickly recover because he was not prepared for it to get his next life. I may not have everything correct as it's been a LONG time since I read the first arc but I remember his nine lives ceremony somewhat
this is exactly what happened. firestar was left shocked by the intensity of that life and was totally expecting it to be opposite. wasn't it the life of love or something he received from i think spottedleaf? that one was soft and fuzzy, and i specifically recall him expecting the mother's life to be similar
On an actually serious note, I'm just as infuriated as you for how Ferncloud was handled. I can completely understand the need to cull out the cast regularly, the cast in recent books is certainly becoming bloated and the authors have gotten too chicken to really shake it up as of late. But these authors just can't be trusted to give good send offs to their interesting secondary characters and Ferncloud is a particularly egregious example. It's astonishing how these authors just completely drop the ball when chances are handed to them in a silver platter. As you said, Brokenstar vs. Ferncloud should've been her ultimate badass moment, but nope. If these authors spent a few minutes more thinking through what they write, the series would be so much better, but I suppose that's the problem ain't it? These ghost writers are made to churn out the books so quickly and it definitely shows.
I haven't read warriors in 15 years but I have been in catch-neuter and release programs since then and it's genuinely funny how people slut shame a cat for having 3 litters even though real world feral cats will usually have 2 litters a year and go into their first heat around 6-9 months old, like its more *unusual* that an adult female cat over 3 years old would only have *one* litter in this situation. they're cats, they go into heat the second their current litter is weaned, that's just how they are
Because while we understand that cats rapidly breed and are not monogamous, they wanted to write humans in cat bodies so they can only have X amount of babies without being sluts.
I have a few questions about this program you were involved in, care to answer a few questions?
@@piretiris8223I know this comment is really old but I’ve also been involved in a tnr program if u still have any questions
@@Ellie-fu6vf ok, you still there?
I think you should talk about Brambleclaw's downfall. When he was introduced as Tigerstars son he was mainly used as someone for Fireheart to freak out about until the fire when he saves him. Time skip to The New Prophecy he builds a relationship with Squirrelpaw soon to be Squirrelflight. Then when she shares her suspicions he basically treats her like garbage always finding a way to scold her or make her feel bad and Ashfur and Squirrelflight become more close causing Brambleclaw to come out to both of them because he was jealous. Then when Daisy arrives he uses Berrykit trying to get him to like him so when he becomes an apprentice he will be mentored by Brambleclaw giving him a chance to become deputy. He even is seen having an angry expression when Birchkit is apprenticed to Ashfur since he was the last kit they had in ThunderClan. When Leafpool found out about Brambleclaw training in the Dark Forest with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost she followed him out of camp and he angrily confronted her. Leafpool was vividly terrified of what Brambleclaw might do to her if he found out what she knew. And then seconds after she tells Squirrelflight she should be with Brambleclaw. Skip to The Power Of Three in the last book when the truth is revealed at the Gathering he shames Squirrelflight saying he would have helped her even though the Erin's stated if they told the truth early Leafpool would have been exiled. Then in Omen Of The Stars in Chapter One is states he never forgave her although not punishing her with the hardest tasks he made sure their paths never met throughout their duties. Later in Sign Of The Moon they are about to travel to the Mountains she asks if he would like her to tell Stormfur anything from him. He coldly tells her just to say he is missed and doesn't even seem to care as jayfeather can feel Squirrelflights pain as he doesn't even tell her to be careful or stay safe. He has just completely changed over the series it really needs to be talked about more
Yeah, he became reallu toxic.
I can't believe Vicky literally recreated the "I can't believe you killed him" meme but with Ferncloud
Upon looking into the Warrior cats family trees, I realized something. Ferncloud might have had many a kitten, but only two of those kittens (Birchfall and Spiderleg) have procreated, and of their own young, only Ivypool's kits remain in ThunderClan. If you're pointing fingers at who is to blame for the tangled mess of a Clan today, you'll want to look at Lionheart and Frostfur (with three kittens who each went on to have large litters), and before that were Adderfang and Swiftbreeze with the same number of kits assuring that all of our main cast is pretty much related anyway.
A lot of non-Firestar related cats have been killed off, Spiderleg’s kits died with no kits, Foxleap and Icecloud died, Hazeltail and Mousewhisker have no kits, etc. This lead to a lot of inbreeding, like with Ivypool/Fernsong who are both related through Firestar and Cloudtail and Stemleaf/Spotfur who are related through Brackenfur and Thornclaw.
Ferncloud was never a favorite of mine but she didn’t deserve all of the hatred. :(
Right?? it wasn't fair tbh.. she deserved to be handled so much better ngl :(
🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻🥹
As much as I love this series, I can't help but think how messed up it is that shecats are treated millions of times worse than tomcats, canon wise and in quite a few sub sections of the fandom. I haven't read the books since crookedstars promise came out so idk if it's improved but it doesn't feel like the way they treat shecats has improved over the series from what I've seen
Blame that on religion getting injected into it early on.
About the double standards in Erin Hunters writing, one thing that bugs me A LOT is Mapleshade's Vengeance.
Don't start talking that Mapleshade is evil, I know that, and I agree with you. She went mad, crimes all over and deserved to go to the DF. The thing that bugs me is this:
Mapleshade: Has half-clan kits - Proceeds to get cast out of the clan, and denied entry of the clan of her ex-mate while grieving for the death of her kits
Appledusk: Has half-clan kits - Doesn't even get a slap on the wrist, his current mate sticks up to him almost immediately, and only consequence is getting killed by Mapleshade at the end, but even then he wasn't the intended victim and jumped in front of Reedshine.
Sure, Mapleshade lied more and the leader of her clan had a reason (she used his dead son as a way out, and they believed that Appledusk killed him), but the fact that no one at Riverclan showed some sort of sympathy and that the leader didn't have any PERSONAL vendetta against her, besides her being Thunderclan, made me mad that Apple stayed with no consequence whatsoever
Ah yes, the elephant in the room
FRECKLEWISH: Doesn't save kits because couldn't swim, and thought the Riverclan Patrol would help them, and had a LOT OF emotional trauma relates to Birchface at the time - DARK FOREST!
All Mapleshade's male victims went to Starclan, but curiously Frecklewish did not. I wonder why?
Anyways, happy holidays!
Yes it sucks and it's unfair
Personally I like the idea of yellowfang being the one to finish off brokenstar for good, he was her rotten spawn after all, but everything else is spot on. I mentioned it on your daisy video, but the ferncloud situation is disgusting, iam just glad to see her being more appreciated by the Fandom now, even though she didn't deserve a lick of hate she got in years past.
she killed her her once already let Fern do it.
I think Yellowfang killing Brokenstar again was a little bland and predictable tbh (no judgement to folks who liked it!), seeing as she already did it once and neither of them have really had any development since then so it was just stuff we'd already seen without bringing much new to the table if that makes sense? Like, Yellowfang already had her dramatic killing her son moment, let Fern shine haha
I liked the idea of DF cats getting killed off by different characters based on their actions. Brokenstar should have been killed by Ferncloud or Daisy, as a nail in the coffin that he should have learned to stop messing with children god dammit, and Hawkfrost should have been struck down by either Ivypool, Hollyleaf, Tawnypelt, or, for extra flair, Mothwing. Crooked star’s ghost killing Mapleshade could have been cool, and it would have been neat to see Thistleclaw or darkstripe be taken down by Brambleclaw.
@@songbird6414 Thistleclaw vs Brambleclaw is such a good idea, I've never thought of that before!
OH MY GOD I JUST REALIZED SOMETHING. Didn’t Firestars’s dad Jake have 8 kits?!? He had Scourge(Tiny), Ruby, and Socks with Quince and then Firestar, Princess, Filou, Tommy, and Luna with Nutmeg. Why is no one talking about that, he literally had more kits than Ferncloud and with all 8 surviving into adulthood at leasts two having children and a long line of powerful descendants. And that’s assuming he didn’t have a third mate and more kits off screen somewhere. We know he had another love interest with Tallstar so why wouldn’t he have more mates(and kits). And no one’s calling Jake a baby machine! Dear god this just makes the Ferncloud situation even more stupid. 🤦♀
It feels like the Erins are being low-key sexist, and they just don't realise it... (This also applies to the parts of the fandom that called Ferncloud a baby factory or other subtly sexist stuff.)
Lots of good points.
Thank you for making this video. Ferncloud definitely deserves more positive attention.
It always rubbed me the wrong way when Vicki said the fans were to blame for Ferncloud dying.
I mean, as the main author, Vicki had the power to do more with her character or she could have just ignored the fans complaints.
People complain. There will always be people who will never be happy with anything. That shouldn’t mean doing anything to shut hem up, in my opinion.
On a side note, please make a Goldenflower video!
Could you make a video about Sorreltail? She was unfortunately killed off unfairly as well because of her and her husband (Brackenfur) being “happy” together.
Yeah, ‘cause the Erins hate wholesome relationships, such as Bracken and Sorrel (one of my favorite relationships)
I appreciate you addressing the age gap and creepy content and not sugar coating it, even if it wasn't entirely the focus.
There's a term for when an adult who knows a child personally and pushes themselves into their lives. Then waits for a child to be an adult and then makes a move on them, it's called the jailbait wait. It's entirely a grooming tactic and super gross.
I hate that it's in these books now.
first off-- loved the video!
second, this is just a tiny detail but I really appreciate how you acknowledge that TIGERSTAR killed Brindleface, not the dogs. I see people claiming the dogs killed her kind of a lot, and it's an oversight that really bugs me. Saying the dogs killed her makes Tigerstar's dog plot seem a lot less dastardly than it truly was, since he killed an innocent queen to give the dogs a taste of cat blood. TY for being careful to get all the little details right!
Honestly if Dustpelt wasn't JUST made a warrior before she was an apprentice it would bother me more. As it is, to me it comes off as a 19 year old crushing on a 16 year old or something similar. I view fresh apprentices as 15-16. So yeah, it raises an eyebrow, but I don't think it's as gross as it could be, like other examples in the series.
But at the same time, they’re cats though…
@@Loaves_of_Cat Yes very true. The age gaps only bother me when it's a clearly toxic relationship, cause that's paralleling real world abusive behavior. In the end it's fiction, so we can take what we want from the text or not.
I always imagined the gap between the beginning and end of an apprenticeship as about the same time you'd spend in middle and high school, so like 11 ish to 18. Which is a far more concerning view of the relationship LOL
I still think it's strange to be interested in someone in such a different stage of life (entering a role you just left is what gets me, not the Number of years) I get Why it doesn't bother you as much that way
Tbh I think it's sort of the writings fault if it's hard to tell what we're supposed to read these characters as. They're capable young adults when the plot calls for it and naive kids when it would cause interesting conflict. Another example of cats changing on a whim to suit the needs of the plot rather than having consistent structure unfortunately :(
I think the relationship is 100% still weird though because of the power dynamic. It’s been so long since I read the books so I don’t remember if this actually happened or not, but I feel like any common sense leader (again can’t remember who it is HAHA) would have switched her mentor at least. Dustpelt would have held most of the power over Fernpool. And even if their age gap is small, it’s much worse because of how even human teenagers vary a LOT by age. (Like, a 13 and 16 year old will have very different interests and perceive the world differently) Tangent over! Even if nothing too terrible happened with Fernpool and Dustpelt’s relationship it still should have been held off until they were full warriors. A lot of young kids read warriors and I worry that this might have made some kids more trusting of adults they shouldn’t. I mean... It definitely influenced me to run around meowing on the playground. So...
@@wolfkitty42 I don’t think dustpelt ever mentored ferncloud, he mentored her brother.
the painting of ferncloud and all her babies is so sweet 🥺❤ i would like to apologize for 5th grade me who thought "haha ferncloud baby machine" jokes were funny
All the cats are related. It's pretty hard to avoid incest in Warriors, considering the code doesn't allow half-clan relationships and clans have like only 20 cats. Thank Starclan Thunderclan let in kittypets, barn cats and cats from other clans or they'd all be horribly deformed.
Remember when WindClan allowed 'visitors'? I imagine there were some circumstances there where they might have joined the clan. But for plot purposes they make cats not born into the wild most of the time unable to go wild except... irl most cats except maybe some pedigree cats like Himalayans (though some might surprise you) can easily go wild... some domesticated cats still catch mice (and sadly birds) that aren't barn cats.
Loved this video! Would really enjoy seeing more videos like this, Goldenflower has always interested me and on another note… a Sorreltail video would be awesome! You don’t have to of course but I think it’s really interesting how Sorreltail and Leafpool are friends, two female cats in warriors being friends when they aren’t related is kind of rare if I’m being honest?
Also hoping this video gets popular enough so that Scorchfur, Snowbird and Skystar are mentioned as tied for having the most kittens on the wiki lol.
So in conclusion, kink shame Clear Sky for his breeding kink? Got it!
Giggling so hard at this rn
Yes
I like to talk about Pinestar’s and Leopardfoot’s age gap.
Pinestar was leader before she was born.
Pinestar actually trained with Leopardfoot’s grandmother.
Not only that, I’m pretty sure he was also already on his last or second-to-last life by the time she was born
Wouldn't it have made morse sense for Leopardfoot to be around Pinestar's own age and that's why their kits were born so weak? Then there wouldn't be the age gap or not as big of one.
I don't even think the authors factor in age gaps they just see a single cat and this other single cat and go OH... lets let them have a litter even when they didn't have much interaction before that?
@@TrinketTheDragonsHoarde Fr.
@@imaginarylivingbody7154 tf.
I barely know anything about warrior cats but I'm genuinely surprised that it's popular given the lore inconsistencies, authors being petty and allowing fans to influence your works, not knowing the characters relations to each other, etc.
I know someone else probably commented it, but I'm gonna ask anyway! I have always loved Goldenflower, as I am a total perma-queen apologist. Could you please do a video surrounding her? I'd especially love to hear a segment about her and the very underutilized idea that Swiftpaw was her son, and how his death was very close to the time Brambleclaw and Tawnypelt were born.
I agree that ferncloud was done dirty. And her death actually shocked me tbh because I didn’t know she was so hated in the fandom at the time.
But ferncloud died at the end of the last hope and by the next major book, bramble stars storm the Erin’s kill Dustpelt too. It’s kinda a bigger plot then ferncloud sadly.
The Nutcracker's The Waltz of Flower playing while you're explaining the double standards should not be this funny.
I also feel infuriated and agree with all of your arguments but the background music got me bad 😭
While I absolutely think the double standard with male characters not being ridiculed by fans is present and should be eradicated, another problem is the writers themselves.
The amount of pressure put on female parents to be good mothers + the expectation that fathers are just "supplemental parenting" is a huge problem in real life, and I think the writers tend to reflect it in their work (not on purpose, I think they just kinda do it without thinking)
Fathers in warrior cats, ESPECIALLY in the old days, were super absent compared to the mothers in a weird way that managed to both diminish the moms AND dads as "people"/characters. I think Part of the reason dustpelt doesn't get ridiculed is because frankly, the kits aren't always Written like they're his. Not gonna lie, it comes off like most male partners in early warriors books love their Wives but dont care about their kids at all. All of the responsibility is put on ferncloud--why did Cody have to help her with the kits instead of.. I don't know, her HUSBAND and the father of her children?? It's shitty writing but it's shitty because it's a reflection of the way real life heterosexual parents are viewed. :(
TL;DR: because of sexism and bad writing, Dustpelt doesn't really Act like much of a dad very often, which is a part of why you hear them all called Ferncloud's kits/he's not given the same amount of scrutiny. Ferncloud has been linked to her children by the writers in a way that never happens with the non POV character fathers in warrior cats and it diminishes the characters of both parties.
The only dad that cares for him kits on the old books, was Graystripe. Like, he joined another clan just for care of him kits.. yea, bc its the only way that connect him with silverstream, but if she dont have dead, I think Graystripe will care anyway.
This is an amazing video ^^
Also I have to say, tysm for talking about how disgusting Dustpelt's interest in FernPAW was. So many overlook this creepy ass dynamic. It's refreshing to see it get addressed in a video. I have no idea why the erins wrote that crap in. Such a simple fix would've been to just move all those interactions into the second arc and change them to fit the context of 2 warriors. It did not need to be a creepy predatory relationship.
Also killing her off just because of the misogyny in the fandom was gross. I get Vicky's annoyance at it but that's exactly why she should've kept Ferncloud ALIVE. Had her kill Brokenstar and show the sexist pricks that Ferncloud COULD put up a fight.
kinda off topic but i always hated how apprentices are treated, everyone expects them to act like adults when they are teenagers/children, also everyone expects them to be maturely developed and that being nice to them is unnecessary, i find this pathetic everyone needs encouragement and to be taught with patience.
also all warriors throw a tantrum when they have to HELP the apprentices, but the apprentices are forced to do everything with their mouths shut??? with this kinda of example??? got it.
I was so furious how they treated Ferncloud.
I adored her and they could've done more with her.
I personally would've loved if she fought much longer, even if she didn't hit the final blow, doing the majority of the damage before someone has to come in.
But i think having Yellowfang do it was a horrible choice. She already killed Brokenstar, she already had her choice.
It made Brokenstar's death so... lame.
If they had to have someone swoop in it
1. Shouldn't have been Yellowfang
2. Should've been with him described as struggling to hold himself up after finishing her off.
3. It Should've been someone who was close to her that wasn't her mate or kits(other then Birchfall, i think Birchfall going in to to finish what his mother started would also be really cool-). I personally think Cloudtail would've been a great choice, or Brightheart!
Because Ferncloud died defending her foster brother's second litter and mate/old friend.
One of them swooping in to finish the blow on an barely standing Brokenstar would've been so much more meaningful and emotional.
Ferncloud was all Cloudtail had left of his foster family other then their kin, and he already had fought side by side with Dovewing.
I just think there were better choices then just repeating their first deaths over again. At least with Hawkfrost, Ivypool was more involved.
Either way I'd want Ferncloud to have done 90% of the damage. She was a strong cat who chose to care for the young of the clan. There was never anything wrong with her choice nor her having 3 liters.
I understand the authors more than likely wanted Yellowfang to be the one to finally kill Brokenstar, I 100% get the intent, but ffs Ferncloud being the one to take him down would have been SO impactful and such a strong moment. 2 Characters with literally polar opposite views taking eachother down would have been amazing and, like you said, would have actually been an awesome sacrifice. If they really needed that Yellowfang and Brokenstar interaction then just have it so that he is mortally wounded by Ferncloud and then Yellowfang rushes over to watch him die, maybe thrown in a quick arugment or whatever. They literally could have had it both ways, were Ferncloud goes out in a badass way and Yellowfang gets that final moment with her son, but no lol just kill Ferncloud because she ""had too many kids"" ok 🤪
On the Dustpelt situation, I think changing how he feels about Fernpaw in the OG series is crucial for the relationship to work. Instead of crushing on Fernpaw, maybe he senses how scared she is of Darkstripe and hisses at him or something. They become close friends before romance is even a thing.
Technically Brackenfur and Sorreltail don’t have that massive of an age gap, since Brackenfur was apprenticed at 3 moons. Thornclaw is a better gauge of the age gap. Sorrelkit was nearing 6 moons when she was poisoned if I recall correctly, with Thornclaw being just over a year old. So they’re about 6 moons apart give or take. Not as extreme as it appears (better than Leopardfoot and Pinestar).
Pinestar had eyes on Leopard since she was a kitten. The writer's confirmed this.
@@Topdoggie7 that's just weird and disgusting
Yeah i'd love to hear someone, anyone talking about the absurdity of Goldenflower as a forgotten/downplayed background character in TPB and TNP. [Poster cat for the phrase: Wasted potential!]
Fr! I am really interested in her perspective on Tigerstar as a whole
I love videos like this. You explain your points so well. I would love a video like this on Goldenflower, she's my favorite background cat!
PLEASE!!! Do an analysis on Golden Flower! And another on the weird age gaps. This is the first vid that I've seen from you, and I'm interested in more content! You're awesome!
I love your long videos talking about characters!! If you do make a Goldenflower video I’d absolutely watch it!! :D
Ferncloud is actually related to cinderheart through brackenfur. Brackenfur's mom is frostfur, frostfur and brindleface are siblings, brindleface's daughter is ferncloud. Not that the cats would know this and I'm sure relationships that aren't direct never crossed the authors' minds. Pretty much every thunderclan cat is related in someway weather it's by blood or marriage...sadly
I like dustpelt and ferncloud when I forget that he loved her when she was a new apprentice... which is a lot... I'm guilty for forgetting how old characters are when I don't need to remember at the moment. But when I think about it, it's disgusting! Even though she was apprenticed late she is still a child. Dustpelt loved her right out of the nursery. Even though it's said he has a SOFT SPOT for her it's obvious that he likes her. I was doing a warriors ship teir list (which I think would be a fun video idea for you btw) and I put them high up on the list...😫😖😩 I'm going to go change that now...
Shhh.... Thrushpelt is make warrior when he 9-11 moons while Bluekit are 3 or 4 moons.
Dont forget brindleface and dustpelt are related, so basically Ferncloud mated w her uncle
@@alcremishi1300
Don't forget Ivypool mate with her uncle/cousin or newphew. Dovewing mate with her uncle/cousin. I argee that Dust being Fern's uncle is weird but they are cat a lof of characters in book are mate with there relate. But at least that Dustpelt still waiting for Ferncloud become a warrior not like Thistleclaw and Spottedleaf thing.
Also Sandstorm's parent is unknow there no scence in book said that Brindle and Red are her parent. Everyone just make Brindle and Red as her parent because there is no single cat at that time. So that don't mean Dust and Sand are uncle and nicely.
Sorry for bad grammar. 🥲🙏
@@KebleStone didnt Vicky confirm that Redtail was Sandstorm's father? Well idk what happened, i guess its not confirmed YET because it isnt in the wiki. Please watch the whole vid, its still kinda creepy that Dustpelt waited for Ferncloud to be a warrior so they can be "mates". Plus, it isnt rlly grooming which is a good thing but he still had a crush on her when she was a young, keyword YOUNG apprentice. And don't worry, I didn' forget the ivypool and fernsong thing. Even so theres many related cat relationships and ivyfern + dustcloud is a pretty healthy relationship we get to see in the books.
@@KebleStone he only started to have a soft spot for Bluefur/star when she was a warrior/senior warrior by the way. He never showed any affections when she was an apprentice and kit.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! Another fantastic video from you 💞 I’m really loving all these videos you’ve been making on warriors’ background characters, specifically female characters that are often overlooked and underestimated by the narrative and the fans, I’d be totally down to see more stuff like this. Also your drawings are adorable!!
I always had a soft spot for Fern and Ash (and yeah, it broke my heart when I got to the Power of Three and surprise, Ash is a badguy now) just because of their roles in the original series. I think she should have gotten a much better sendoff than a couple of sentences and oops, dead now.
Also your point about being worried about Daisy's bloodline being wiped out is literally me when Mistystar and Reedwhisker both went in one book. Like. Welp. There goes Bluestar's bloodline I guess. (Which I had a feeling would happen anyways because I'm sure people would have been making old man jokes about 'Reedstar' if that had happened.)
Love this video! It was really a shame to see how they killed off Ferncloud, I really like her character. I would definitely like to see a Goldenflower video, she's quiet an interesting character.
I think you should do squirrelFlight since there’s SO MUCH DRAMA OR ROMANCE lol and also don’t me explaining your self for the rants, I love them there one of the favorite things I like about your videos 💞
Gracie your rants keep me sane
I'm just in awe of your channel! Resident Evil and Warriors in the same place? I'm surprised I didn't find you sooner, but I cannot wait to see what you have in store!
PLEASE PLEASE PLEEEEASE MAKE A VIDEO ABOUT THE AGE GAPS!!! They’re so frequently mentioned but I haven’t seen ANYONE really dig into that
Rip ferncloud you didn’t deserve this…
oh my god i thought i was the only one who started the series with Midnight on accident LMFAOO i was in like 2nd grade at the time and i was about to check out midnight (under the assumption that it was the first book) and my friend was like "i think you're supposed to start with (the actual first book)" and i was like Pffft nah i know what im talking about. i did NOT.
I would love to hear your perspective on Clear Sky’s redemption arc and how it failed (unless you feel it succeeded, then I’d like to hear your perspective on how it worked).
I love the way you talk about these, I love listening to videos of people talking about warrior cats and you took the cake! 💖💖💖
Beautiful fan art and great video, I love the style!
i wanted to watch the daisy video SO bad but i would have been spoiled. i'm glad it did so well!!!
I want to write a Ferncloud vs Brokenstar fight rewrite now
Honestly if I were a clan cat I'd stay in the nursery too.
I love how Spiderleg just got more and more disappointed as the speedpaint went on
I was absolutely disgusted no surprise why I stay away from fandom and fan base because of some stupid toxic fan who thinks it’s ok to killed our beloved character like absolutely unforgivable
i LOVE goldenflower, PLEASE MAKE A GOLDENFLOWER VIDEO
So, can you make a Goldenflower video? I always found that cat interesting.
Also, I'm now curious if we'll see those new kits of Skystar's in the Riverstar super edition that's coming out next year...
God, I hope Riverstar's super edition is better than the last two. Especially Onestar's, I did not like that one.
Also, maybe there needs to be a limit to how many litters couples have now since there are possibly over 40 cats in thunderclan now.
Last comment I swear! Ferncloud did deserve more attention and love, even as a kid, I never liked the hate she received. Sure, it's sad to see how she was treated in the Fandom, and the comment from the author caught me off guard. I honestly wish we got more of the fight scene from her so we could see just how hard she fought for the kits in the nursery.
Oh. My. God. I can't express properly how much I want to see an AU MAP about Dustpelt being a, well, p*dophile and preying on Fernpaw/Ferncloud. If one of y'all makes this a reality I wanna get some credit :>.
I am genuinely disgusted at the fandom's own sexism towards the books' characters, making the books' own slight sexism even worst then it already way.
overthinking comes to mind.
I’m going to be an enabler here - make that Goldenflower video, I would love to see what you say.
"Always female characters" Wait a minute... What about Jake? People makes jokes that he is everyones father.
Even if it's not in the book, I did find a confirmed information of Starflower having kits with ClearSky, Thunder AND LightningTail, oh yeah LightningTail's mate is or was Starflower
why am I watching this despite knowing nothing about warrior cats
Do you like the art?
Lol
Okay I really want you to talk about this issue. When a Tom's mate dies, they'll likely take a new mate, see: Graystripe, Crowfeather, Maybe Stormtail, Tigerstar. But I have not come across a she cat who chose to move on and have kits with someone else except Daisy, and her new mate was awful to her. And when they do choose to move on, it's seen as them playing a Tom, see Dovewing and Squirrelflight. I just think it could be an interesting topic.
I often thought of Ferncloud like my mom, a giving and caring woman who feels called to love and nurture her children and others as well. She has six children, which could be considered a lot. But she wants and intended to have every one of them. I think we should put more respect on truly loving mothers
Honestly, I've been in the Warriors fandom since I first started reading the books in middle school (specifically Spring of 2013 when I was 12, so it's almost been 10 years) and I remember all of the "baby factory" comments from back in the day. I never gave it nearly as much thought as I should've, even as a teen girl, but I did still like Ferncloud's character. Truthfully, I haven't read past the first book of Power of Three yet, even after all this time, but knowing Ferncloud died because of such hateful comments pisses me off. I hate that she became hated over something the writers willingly did to her, and then made her suffer because of their shit choices. And why weren't we as a community holding the male cats to the same standard as the female ones? It definitely baffles me that Dustpelt never got the same treatment as Ferncloud. I actually really disliked Dustpelt, but mainly because he was an asshole in the first arc and never gave proper thought to the age gap or family relations between him and Fern either (until years later). I'm glad the community is recognizing past mistakes and fighting against old injustices, I wish the authors would start doing the same. I haven't read the new arcs, but I've heard many complaints of how the Erin's are still treating certain characters like shit for no rhyme or reason while praising others who don't deserve it. It bothers me more after I had came across a video last year about the imbalanced gender ratio in Warriors. There are far more male characters present and of importance than female characters, according to the stats from that video [If anyone wants a link, let me know and I'll go find the vid and send a link in the replies]. This unaddressed bias, whether accidental or not, irks me. You'd think the authors would know better when they're mostly comprised of women, it's really sad. I'm glad none of them have outright pulled a J.K. Rowling and openly discriminated against the LGBTQ+ (to my knowledge). That said, the fact that they have blatant sexist and biased views doesn't make much of a case for them either... Again, it can be unintentional, but with how many female characters they've done dirty and how many male characters have gotten a LOT of slack, I don't understand how they still don't recognize this issue.
Thank you for talking about this, Gracie! I just found your channel today and binged most of your Warriors videos, and they're well-worded, super informational, and amazingly done. I can't wait to watch more! 😊🧡
There were so many weird age gaps in Warriors, but one that has been lingering in my mind is the off-book, confirmed relationship between RunningWind and DappleTail. The strangest thing in this pairing is that RunningWind was described in the books to be a very athletic warrior, whereas DappleTail was already an elder, so what would they even have in common? Also, let's not forget that DappleTail had a weird relationship with Stormtail, so it just feels like she's continuing a cycle of abuse. The sad part is that if the Erins wanted too, they could have made a cute platonic relationship between DappleTail and Running Wind, where Running Wind is like DappleTail's adopted grandson who visits her in the elder dens and encourages her to go outside for exercises.
I have come to the conclusion that the writers hate healthy and happy relationships as well as hating women in said healthy, happy relationships.
If my family was in Warriors, my gosh we would be the center of mockery, as almost all in my family had many kids. My great grandmother had 6, my mother had 4 surviving and 3 miscarriages, my sister had 7 surviving and 1 miscarriage. Me and my brother are one of the very few that have less than 3 kids, with me having 1 and my brother having none. And as warriors that would mean whole litters instead of single kids per birth. My sister and her husband alone would have been able to fill almost an entire Clan on their own.
I do totally agree that Dustpelt and Ferncloud’s relationship is wildly inappropriate, however the way warriors is or isn’t animalistic isn’t completely set in stone. They’re fine together, but if someone is waiting for you to become an adult to get together, run a million miles away.
I think it wasn’t an appropriate relationship for a kids book. A lot of kids won’t see their relationship as a “cat thing” because a lot of younger kids just don’t fully understand the boundaries presented in fiction because they don’t have the context to understand that an warrior (adult) waiting for an apprentice (child) to become a warrior (adult) is insane.
@@wolfkitty42 or lot of kidsjust doesn't remember or really care about. Like myself. I read it, but meh...
But well, then I remember I dealt at that time with my own trauma so oh well 🤣
If Ferncloud is a baby factory then Dustpelt is also in the assembly line
definitely interested in the goldenflower video!! i would love to know your thoughts!
Gonna play a tiny bit devil's advocate, but Ferncloud was not as young as most of the fandom makes her out to be. She was in the group of apprentices Cloudtail was, the group _Bluestar refused to make warriors, despite being old and deserving enough to be so_. That was what led to Swiftpaw's death and Brightheart's injury in the first place. They weren't quite as old, but she was older than most assume. Along with the fact her apprenticeship seemingly lengthened due to having to switch mentors to Longtail, she had a decently longer-than-average apprenticeship.
Also this was early series, which should be taken with a grain of salt i feel. I think the Erins didn't realize how her and Dustpelt's relationship would come off, especially when in later books there is much more of a clear divide between apprentices and warriors in terms of age and dynamics.
Fern cloud and Daisy are the real VIPs of thunderclan
"Scorchfur fathered Berryheart, Cloverfoot and Buster, despite being an apprentice when Snowbird was pregnant with them" WHY DOESNT ANYBODY TALK ABOUT THIS!? WTF!! THIS IS SOO MUCH CREEPIER THAN SNOWBIRD HAVING 9 KITS OR THE DUSTXFERN THING. 💀🥶🥶
23:20 UMMM WHAT? I know that Dustpelt going after Fernpaw upsets a lot of people, but I mean... at least they waited until she was an adult???? Snowbird literally had children with a CHILD WTH WHY AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT THIS
I consider that to be a retcon too like they no way had no idea who Snowbirds kits father was when they wrote Outcast and then just chose a random warrior when they decided she needed a mate without checking. But also yeeeeeaaa. Might go over that in a future video bc I didn’t know about that either
That's beacause that was a retcon.
@@tell-me-a-story- well sure, but Patchpelt and Willowpelt being mates was a retcon as well and people went crazy about that (rightfully so). This is the same level
Petition for Dustpelt to die by choking on a bug, he’s churning out too many damn kittens!
I think Cinderheart has too many kits. Ferncloud's comparatively isn't as bad because half of them died. But there are too many cats in Thunderclan.
None of the cats in warriors have nearly enough kittens. For some reason they always have litters of like, two. Where are all the seven kitten litters that real cats would have? Just make less cats have kittens to fix the cluttering of charecters problem. Yes that would make most the cats related, buy marrying outside clans is allowed now, so inbreeding won't be a problem.
Make a goldenflower video
Weren't Ashpaw and Fernpaw apprenticed a bit late cause Bluestar didn't care and Fireheart had to do it? I don't think they were 6 moons, but still a bit young maybe.
seven is a tiny ammount for a cat. Cats often have seven in just one litter.
The legacy naming has been overdone to the point that it means nothing now.
please do a goldenflower video, i need to know your thoughts... :)
I do wonder if Golden Flower had still been around for PoT and OotS if she would have had any influence still over her son Brambleclaw and his actions/reactions toward Squirrelflight. Then again I just think its bad writing... love the world... but the writing... they take characters and change their presonalitites to fit the plot rather than creating new characters or situations that doesn't turn the characters into something they weren't or focuses only on that one trait and amplifies it to the nth degree.
I actually never cared for Ferncloud... But that mockery she really didn't deserve
Could you do one on squirrel flight?
i dont think ferncloud shouldve been the one to fight brokenstar in the first place, i really feel liket hat was yellowfangs fight, the cat who ruined her original way of life was going to have his two chances of life demolished by his main victim, i think ferncloud should've been fighting someone like raggedstar, the one who encouraged brokenstars behavior in the first place
I really would like if you would do rain flower because of her and crooked kit and how she was probably the the worst mother in the Whole fandom. She’s very selfish but also there’s the medicine cat who is there for crooked kit , she’s more of a mother to crooked kit than rain flower would ever be because rain flower unlike golden flower and gray stripes kits she looks at her son with discuss and hate and I feel she needs a video about her not only her and crooked kit but also her other son, she keeps her other son by her side 20.4.7 but pushes crooked kit away like he’s crow-food and than when crooked kit grew up he grew up to have sliver stream so a video ether about crooked star/kit or rain flower.
and i mean, yellowfang already killed brokenstar. she didnt need to kill him twice.
Make a golden flower video!
Love this, new sub.
please don't take this in a negative way but you sound like craig from south park 😂 that aside, i enjoyed this video and i subbed!
DO. NOT. SAY. FERNCLOUD. IS. A .BAD. CHARETER. IDC. WHAT. YOU .THINK. FERNCLOUD. IS. THE. BEST. CAT. EVER!
🎉🎉🎉🎉
kinda sad she died because she was a charachter I like, My irl cat is literally named off her too
Ikr its a beautiful name for a cat
just found ur channel. you get a sub now.