Cool critique! I just wish to offer some counter arguments to your criticism which I think are very well founded! 1)the over usage of sepiroth. I’ve read some reviewers and even the developers themselves have said thst sephrith’s appearances are meant to add to. The ambiguity of cloud’s me memory, to the ambiguity of sephorth’s plan, and to avoid repeating the original story. So the OG as you were right, made the one winged angel this mysterious guy-hero or villain or neither? Was he dead? That introduction to a villain was novel in 1997, and the success of ff7 made it clear that even non gamers would be familiar with WHO he is. So having the suspense prob wouldn’t work as well on the modern gamers (both new and old) as one might hope. This sephiroth however like aerith has seen what will happen, and he is more intent on beating cloud and his crew. And he is still the same evil person that we know and love; he does trick our heroes into beating destiny. 2)death. You’re right that the OG game shocked audiences by killing characters that didn’t usually die. Death was this unavoidable force, no revivals, no last minute words, regrets, and only hopes that you were a good person; even crisis I core did this well. However, other stories have used this powerful tool and asrith’s death is so commonly known that it’s impossible to recapture what one felt in 1997. A remake would just be a graphically impressive retelling of a famous tale, but the remake decided that it can do something new and make us question what will happen. And it’s not like the OG timeline dosnt exist or that you didn’t feel that Biggs, Jessie and others weren’t capable of dying. It was an unexpressed twist for the remake to change the timeline but things can get worse or not. Death is still here-it’s just been delayed. We will have to see.but we have the OG game, and now this remake is changing things while remaining tied to the OG timeline. 3)avalanche and it’s guilt. The remake I’d argue dosnt actually make shinra sympathetic. They still cause the most damage to the planet, they create monsters, they still are willing to essentially rape aerith (good thing they made planet’s reaction to that info in the remake more realistic). Avalanche however is still presented as a flawed group. It’s clear it sent bids don’t work, that they played into shinra’s hands, that it was them who gave shinra the idea to blow up a reactor to cause City wide destruction, and that Barrett is more akin to guy hyping his ego to prevent any doubts from seeping into his mind (there’s a great analysis of Barrett’s words and body actions on RUclips somewhere).
A 1 to 1 remake would have made the game way too short because if you sum up the entire story of FF7 it would only take you an 1hr to recreated the dialogue and 15min for a voice actors to tell their part. the biggest problem with modern games is that they require almost movie lvl scripts. if you had made it using FF7 original dialogue we would have large spaced out parts with almost no story. in the original the story only told you 3 things why it happening who is doing it and where you have to go in a modern game that is bare bones. I don't like the remake as much as the original, but I can understand why they are filling out the game with all these pointless stories. The way a story is read and the way you tell it are completely different monsters. so I can see why they changed a lot of things. even movie directors and actors change what is written on the script and replace many things because they don't translate well when you act them out it is the same with a game that now has full character animation where they act out their action and it's not just a text box telling you about them. then there is also the voice acting which changes how the story is told instead of you reading about it. I agree with a lot of your points. in fact if it were up to me this game would have been 3cd long and sold as complete game just like the original. I like what they did with midgard, but I hate that they added the ghosts to the story it kind of makes it feel like kingdom heart 2 in some aspects. If they wanted to please both sides they could have just made the game do both stories the original and the alternative in one game so that those who wish to see a 1 to 1 can enjoy it. I can understand why they didn't do a 1 to 1 since the story would have been way too on the midgard portion, but right after you leave midguard and get past calm village there isn't much to do or story it would be a big portion of you traveling to chocobo ranch getting a chocobo and getting past the giant snake and meeting the turks who don't even fight you in this part. it a giant blank with no story and it would be too much work to try and fill it in with anything. that's not the only giant portion of the game with no story, but because it works on ps1 with everything explain on a text box we just blank out and head in the direction instructed to us this doesn't work well when creating a giant world. specifically if they try and make it open world the game will be filled with way too many empty areas of nothing but random encounters. I really do hope they don't make this open world. If they do make it open world I hope they do add more towns and cities to it the world in the original was way too big with very few towns and cities spread too far apart. just like in real life a city the size of midgard would have towns and neighboring city that cater to those who might not want to live in fast pace and chaotic city. with the level of technology the original FF7 lacked roads which is something incredibly dumb for a city filled with greed needs speedy amount of resources with no roads they can't exactly get steady supplies of any kind of resources.
There's also no consistency in how the whispers act. Sometimes they act before the change of script occur, and sometimes they act later, as if they were tidying things up. We are not clear either on who is able to see the whispers. The general explanation seems to be that someone been touched by Aerith (and then Cloud), can acquire the ability of seeing them, but that doesn't fit either. Rufus and Rude should both be able to see them. Those who defend that everything is fine because whispers will be gone in part 2 need to consider if it's acceptable to leave these unsolved questions with no answers.
Totally agree. At this point it's going to annoy me more if Part 2 is a 1:1 remake. It would be a backtrack. They need to go full ham down the new road they've created. Unfortunately, many of us might not survive until the end.
@@orion8550 I also shared your views on Zack, I understand the fandom appeal to the character but he seems quite flat character to me with an over-sized role in FF7 and that he works best as Cloud's deceased inspirational hero that he compares himself to and tries to measure up. Additionally I think I feel that their motivation of going through the singularity should have been to defeat Sephiroth. The dialogue should have been them initially them not understanding what the portal is but wanting to find Sephiroth thus decides to follow him but afterwards fighting the Arbiters of Fate not understanding they changed destiny by doing so.
Rude, yes. Rufus, no. Rude fights bare fisted like Tifa so when fighting Cloud he most certainly made contact unless you somehow gave a perfect fight. Rufus, on the other hand, fights entirely with guns, leaving Darkstar to do any physical contact attacks. You could say Cloud contacted Rufus, but that depends on how you view Cloud's weapon. Cloud doesn't fight with his fists, so he never actually makes physical contact with Rufus directly. Only his sword does. I'd like to stress that I'm not defending the choice to use the Whispers in the story, only that it does make sense that Rufus doesn't see them. Rude should see them though, and so should Reno because Rude puts his hand on Reno's shoulder after he made direct contact with Cloud.
For some reason, the wall climb of the original was iconic to me. It represented the time it was made so well in aesthetics while again illustrating the stark contrast of the Midgar near caste system. It was beautifully simple. In the remake, the wall climb is so convoluted, so much filler to get to a "press X to proceed" chapter marker. Of course, this was after so much backtracking and bizarre choices, that all enthusiasm for the game was long gone. I doubt I will be going further with this series. A simple moment ruined, one among many. I don't want to think about what the future has in store.
Very well said. I completely agree.. The mix between the two worlds. And that triumphant music playing in the background as you make the climb. They were desperate to drag out Remake anywhere they could find.
I prefer remakes wall climb by a margin, bonding time with the team, seeing the aftermath of the plate drop most of the time, teamwork in many occasions while being hunted by shinra, opinions are just opinions in the end
The mental gymnastics some 'fans' do to justify the changes made to the remake really baffle me. They equate subversion with quality and claim if something is new or unexpected it must be better than something youve seen before by default. Their ideas about how a game should be almost make it seem like they have an attention deficit disorder where they are unable to enjoy a game unless it is constantly throwing twists and gotchas at them. They prefer spectacle over substance and seem to be able to ignore 110% of a games flaws provided it looked cool and had cute characters for them to ship. Thats not even mentioning the sheer gall they have to tell fans of the original game 'go and play the original if you dont like the changes', 'the changes dont matter because the original still exists', 'the game was meant to annoy purists like you', 'the game clearly wasnt made for you'. If these people want so bad to change an existing story to the extent that it is essentially a different game, simply to get a dopamine hit from the slightly altered experience, why do they not go and make their own new game? Why butcher an existing story for such a pathetic reason? Naturally its because Square does know their 'fanbase' and knows exactly how to exploit them for a quick buck. I fear this will only continue having seen that they have the cheek to release paid dlc for an episodic release, and also want to create a gacha and battle royale out of FF7 - which are essentially the top 2 genres for making money at the moment.
It’s interesting watching this a year after playing the game. I still cannot believe how bad it was and how baffling so many of the decisions were by square Enix. We are living in a age of subversion and it all feels like a cope out. This story is bonkers and reads like it was written by a 15 year old attempting his first fantasy novel. It’s soul crushing and you feel the weight of corporate gaming behind every move.
10/10 review. No overly critical and arbitrary slew of emotional opinions. A critique deeply rooted in your truth and experience. I really want Tetsuya Nomura to see these videos, and allow this beautiful remake to play and finish genuinely.
Glad I'm not the only fan to feel this way. I'm honestly at a loss as to how this "remake" garnered such a positive response, especially from longtime fans. Your critique was excellent though, and deserves way more views.
This is one of the best critique's ive heard on the remake. Its vindicating to see that im not the only person that feels this way, and that there are many others with the exact same feelings and thoughts that i had when i first played the game. Ive played through remake a few times now and i genuinely do like the game for everything that it gets right. The characters, music, graphics are top notch. But it has many flaws that are hard to get over. I preordered remake under the impression i was getting a true remake, not this reimagining. i felt scammed and tricked after the ending. I can maybe forgive the story changes, once ive wrapped my head around that this isnt my 1997 game anymore, its something new. But will it be better? Only time will tell. i am both excited and fearful for whats to come.
Oh and you're completely and totally right on Roche btw. A fully-formed non-faceless character in SOLDIER who isn't at the top of the organisation is gold to me. In the abstract I am completely on board with that as something new, and as a concept. But the execution in Roche is just... oh god no. I don't even like his visual character design. Why do we need a character with a mullet? I viscerally hate Roche in a way I haven't done with any FF character to the same extent since Seifer. Maybe that's actually what the developers were going for? If so, they definitely succeeded with me. I guess you can say that they might give him a personality in future installments, but I don't get that vibe at all. He just feels like miniboss flavouring with characterisation as an afterthought. Complete missed opportunity.
It's funny. I was gonna learn how to video edit just to make a FF7R critique essay. But you said and pointed out literally everything I was gonna say. So, I guess I can keep being lazy.
Well done. Well articulated video. I think overall when SE get it good, like that Cetra section in Shinra HQ, music and the characters, they nailed it. But when they do the bad and the ugly, overused Sephi, whispers, and unnecessary plot, they drop the ball and ruin the overall experience. And it's unfortunate that the majority of the fanbase are praising this game to high heavens, and ignoring 100% of it's flaws.
@@genesisspace5331 Maybe some, but they wouldn't have had much ground to stand on when that's how the original story goes. Personally, I would've been perfectly happy.
@@genesisspace5331 I'm not a fan of him being a ghost or whatever. If someone is coming for a remaster of a classic game, and s/he is mad because the story is playing out the way it's supposed to... I don't know what to tell him/her. Maybe episodic wasn't the way to go
"For about 15 years I'd been cautious of a final fantasy 7 remake. Ever since Advent Children..." I share this sentiment. I was not a fan of the compilation.
It's so sad because at this game's best, it is the game of my dreams. Combat I love, characters that act like they are supposed to, awesome cinematic sequences. But the plot ghosts alone and everything tied to them just ruin the experience.
@@genesisspace5331 it's not the same game. They completely fleshed out all of the characters, including adding depth to the Avalanche and Shinra characters. The whispers just add superfluousness and takes away from those additions by removing all of the stakes, killing the momentum, and adding more things to explain.
@@genesisspace5331 Resident evil remake 2002 is proof that a 1:1 remake with added content and expanded lore is enough, this, on the other hand, is a Sequel, not a remake and we no need insight, people really believe this series will be either 3 parters or that Square doesn't know how many parts and that we shouldn't criticize then which is just stupid and absurd. Basically, these Peoples want FF 7 to last forever and pay more than 800$ to enjoy it instead of just 60$ and move on.
The most important take away from ff7 remake is there are two types of fans. Fans of the actual ff7 game or fans of the ff7 compilation. If you are a ff7 fan, the remake is a let down with story, events and character changes. If you are a fan of the compilation, the remake is everything you wanted. Super saiyan cloud, yaoi undertones, Zack being the true hero and aeris being the waifu'est waifu.
Exactly! When you've got time travel and stuff, you lose the sense of finality the original game was all about. Now just about anyone can be brought back. Anything goes and anything can be done or undone. I would like to know what happened in the meetings where they decided to do this.
Zack is my favorite FF protagonist, but I agree with most, if not all, of this. I've also seen hours long deconstructions about subtle plots weaving this grand tapestry that's been in the works for 20 years. And it's stuff like this that makes me go "nah, if they were really capable of constructing that complex of a story, with that much foresight, then they wouldn't miss basic things like this".
All that storyline only to get confused when they added Zack in the mix. Is he a character that cheated death somehow brought back or was it all a vision? I have no idea...
This video ages like fine wine while SE further shits all over the legacy if FFVII. Now Zack is back and full on compilation convolution is on the way. Jesus.
Lets be honest, Sakaguchi was the heart and soul of Final Fantasy. It has been pretty obvious with the games over the last couple decades, but Remake/Rebirth may as well just punched us in the face with that fact.
Old FF7 referenced global pollution, second-class citizenship (rich vs poor), big corporate greed, terror attacks for the supposed greater good .... list goes on. New FF7 references mostly just.. itself. "REMEMBER HECK HOUSE, REMEMBER CLOUD DRESS UP?" And that annoying "Crisis Core" combat system can go eff itself.
In the recent interview with Kitase. Even the old team made the game don't like the story is going through so there is a new team making the part 2 who like the remake.
One issue i find in final fantasy games is that they can jump really high in cutscenes and combat, but cannot jump across obstacles just so the level design is prolonged. It feels disconnected somehow, leaving me screaming "just jump, you've jumped higher than this!!!" Regarding sephiroth, i think you're already telling the point. Square no longer hides sephiroth as the surprise villain. I'm thinking it's because he has a different role this time, that's why he was presented early. We'll probably get to see a different surprise for the main villain in the trilogy. But of course it's a maybe. I agree about the deaths, but I'm giving square legroom. Afterall the story isn't done yet. We still get to know why they made the people appear to survive. And regarding these workaround for deaths, remember that they already killed the arbiters, and the effect seems inter-possibility. Therefore, succeeding deaths will be truly permanent.
Good work brother! I liked your example of how Roche could have been better characterized. As he is now, he seems out of place in the story. They definitely could have fleshed him out more and made him a more compelling tangential antagonist. Instead he's literally just a random boss fight / attempted comic relief in a single chapter in the story
Hey, thanks a million for taking the time to watch. I really appreciate that! I feel if they're going to add new characters they really ought to have a real purpose in the story, and should be adding a spark. And that was something you pointed out so well in your vid - the character of Leslie. An odd amount of screen time and back story given to a remarkably boring character. Cheers again for checking it out!
Had to watch this after your Rebirth review and yeah, just as spot on! xD I went into the Remake with no expectations and was overall really impressed by it, especially the character development (except for Aerith, but that’s a separate conversation). However, even with how much I enjoyed it, it’s not perfect by any means. I felt there was too much filler which really removed the urgency of the plot, as you said, especially with the plate drop. Your line about “the only thing that was scary was a bug that made Aerith run in circles and Tifa look like a Blair Witch victim” made me laugh so hard, I HATED that segment so much bc it was completely pointless!! The fact that they only dialled up the filler in Rebirth is sooo frustrating. And your points about Sephiroth are valid, as they are in Rebirth, but I love him so much that I enjoy seeing him everytime he appears! 😆 And I’m not ashamed to say it!! And on that note - I wish more people could admit that as well. It’s okay to say that because you love a character so much, maybe you didn’t notice some of the things they do don’t make sense. It’s also okay to say that because the graphics are so sexy, it distracts you from how messy the story is sometimes. I know that’s the case for me! And it certainly has to be for a lot of others. I’m almost positive that if you tried to tell this story with lesser graphics, people would notice the flaws faster. These games literally have “pretty privledge” lmaoo.
I always get a kick out of peoples' reaction when I say Advent Children is a bad movie. I have to iterate that I still like it. It's fun to watch... but it's terrible. And when they ask why, I counter, "tell me in like 2 sentences what that movie is about." And that usually makes them realize the film makes no sense lol
This is really close to my feelings as well. I can really empathize with artists/creators returning to an old project and feeling different about it and wanting to do something new while balking under pressure to recreate what they did originally. I feel like there were some writing differences and people weren't really talking to each other. My spouse and I had these moments we called "Tetsuya Nomura is back from lunch" scenes where a moment of strong characterization was immediately followed by Kingdom Hearts style metaplot. I don't mind changes in general, but I wish they hadn't decided that one of the things that needed to change simplifying the themes. You could say that fighting destiny was A theme in the original, but that's oversimplifying it. The remake made fighting destiny THE theme, and it's honestly feels both trite and ironic coming from SE at this point. The only quibble I have with your critique is the implication that part of the problem was that the game was Midgar only. I agree that the execution was terrible, from Whispers, to the pacing, and so on, but Midgar does feel like a solid chapter in it of itself and the break there is natural. Had they expanded on Midgar with ideas such as your rewrite on Roche, or perhaps have a willingness to leave Cloud's perspective at times they could've easily expanded on Midgar without sacrificing pacing. For example, I think it would have been fantastic to have a perspective change when Cloud falls from the plate where we are left with Barret and Tifa needing to keep pushing Avalanche forward. There's a whole day of action and emotions there that are just unexplored simply because it isn't Cloud's perspective, and it's not like the original FFVII wasn't willing to leave Cloud's POV to give player's a moment of dread about his condition. Plus, for new players, it'll set up an expectation for later games when Cloud disappears from a fall (again) at the Northern Crater and when he is found he will be alright and probably in a light-hearted scenario with a new potential party member again only to have the rug pulled out from under them when they find the condition he's actually in. Going back to your video, solid critique. I'm going to scout about your other videos to see if you offered up more ideas for how the game could have been improved or more detailed summaries on what aspects of the characterizations you liked because I'm curious on your perspective. If they aren't there, hey, more ideas for future videos.
Thanks for your comment! 'Tetsuya is back from lunch' haha, I like that. I take your point about Midgar - it just felt like their approach was OK we've decided we're staying in this location for part 1, how much stuff can we fill it with? How do we push this to 40 hours? Whereas the organic thing would be discovering in the writing process that you have this much story to tell to justify keeping the story there. Maybe that's not how it happened in the room, but it felt like that decision opened the door to padding because there was nothing of substance contributed. In an ideal world where the story blows you away then you don't feel that I guess.
I agree. I guess the implication that it's because of it being Midgar only and that's why it's bad just feels like an excuse the developers themselves would have made had the game flopped. "This external limitation ruined it, not me." Sort of thing. I think the real issue is that SE devs seem to share a similar attitude to many AAA devs towards intimacy (emotional stakes) as a writing tool. IE: intimacy is good characterization but not good for plot. It's patently untrue but it's hard to make a boss fight out of out of emotional stakes. The content was there to make your 40+ hour game in Midgar. But they apparently didn't know how to bring it out without relying on the crutch of physically manifesting destiny via a fight on the moon I guess.
Due to how developing modern AAA assets for most locations and the content within all in one go was a big demanding and costly challenge for the production, I don't think the alternative of taking the game up to the Temple of the Ancients would've been feasible had they stuck with this style of presentation (personally, I wish they would've just gone with the more simplistic anime-ish art direction based on the OG art, which would then make an all-in-one game more realistically doable in a reasonable amount of time, as exemplified by Dragon Quest XI). I do agree that it should've ended somewhere outside of Midgar, though. Alternatively, if they were adamant about having it just be Midgar no matter what, then the story would've been better off being frontloaded with the filler rather than having it spread about. This may sound like an even worse idea on paper, but given how there's absolutely no urgency after the first Bombing Run up to the next, they could've just expanded the story to have the first half dedicated to a lot of Avalanche-related scenarios rather than just having the one Jessie-centric chapter. That way, the story has a lot of room to explore many missions without feeling like they're getting in the way of important business, since they'd exist specifically to set up the next big mission. As for Sephiroth, I imagine the reason as to why he doesn't just go back and off Cloud at an earlier point is because he needs him or something. Their clash at the ending has him wanting to have Cloud aid him in defying destiny or some nonsense, and goes on about how he isn't ready for something. I wouldn't be surprised if this is all leading up to a new climax where Sephiroth isn't the final enemy. Fans better strap themselves in for sheer insanity, because it's only the beginning of this clusterfuck. :P
I loved the gameplay and battle system of the remake. I do wish Midgar was more open world and that all of the sectors were explorable. Thank you also for not making me feel like I was crazy with the FF7 compilation, I was never a fan. Also, can someone distract Nomura with a separate project?
This is modern game design, Death is sad, fans didn't want Aerith and Zach to be die, so we don't kill them. Avalanche was a terrorist organization willing to sacrifice innocent people for the fate of the world, but that isn't sympathetic enough, so we have to make them more noble. FF7 isn't FF7 without Sephiroth so we have to find a way to include him even if from a Narrative perspective its a terrible idea, because that's what fans want. ... And worst of all, we don't want to "remake" an old game, we want to make a new game, but the fans want us to remake FF7 so we're going to do both, An alternate universe version if u will where were free to do what we want, but with enough FF7 left to be marketed as the "remake" fans want... There was a meeting at some point in Square HQ where the plot was discussed and the writers said at this point Biggs Wedge and Jessie die and some corporate person said wait, they die... we're marketing this to kids, we cant have these characters die, you can't kill them. Rewrite this part so they don't die. But sir, their death are important, they give gravitas to the story, narrative weight... They make real to the characters in the story and to the audience the tragic consequences of Avalanche's "Crusade" This is a game, we don't want tragic consequences, we want it to be fun, we want fans to be happy, the good guys are heroic and altruistic and noble and only the bad guys can die... And so we get remake... a farce... this is exactly why this game never should have been "remade"
One issue I had was the battle system of this new ff7. I preferred the older one because they're was more depth and more variety. The limit breaks, the assortment of spells and combination. Yet this one felt like going through the motions. I liked ffxv yet this is ff7 and should've stayed the path instead of following the kingdom hearts / action rpg genre. Just two cents, yet it's still a ok remake. Your review is the best thus far. I wish more people could see your review
Bravo! I enjoyed this video. I agree with all of this. You brought up points that I didn't think of such as Barret not inviting Cloud the second time around. The more I think about this mess of a story, the more frustrated I become. They had the blue prints and all they had to do was expand on it. No, they did this instead. The stakes are gone, there's no urgency, nothing but fan service and friendship is magic trope. I'm not a die hard fan of FFVII but I like the original story so much. I hate that because of this remake, the important character moments, for example Cloud remembering who he is, are not going to be as impactful. I don't understand how they are going to follow with the next part. Like why should I care about Cloud and crew when they defeated Destiny itself. Man, this game could have been a masterpiece if the story did not tank as hard as it did. I really enjoy the game til that last part and hoo boy... I will see how the next part will be. If it is bad, I will drop this remake as fast as I can.
Many thanks for watching. Really enjoyed reading your thoughts. I think fans get the impression that we're sitting down with a pen and paper throughout the whole game looking for faults. It couldn't be further from the truth. For example, when they revealed Wedge was still alive, as much as it annoyed me, I put it aside and hoped they would pull everything together for a satisfying ending. I willed myself to like this game as much as I could. And obviously there was a lot I did like. But when it made mistakes, it made them in a big way.
@@orion8550 Agreed. I think they do think that way about people who appreciate the original story. It is a darn shame to be honest cause those who appreciate the original story were lead to believe that the remake would be faithful to the story. But, it did not turn out to be the case. True, I was upset Wedge not dying because his last words in the original game were on the fact Cloud remembered his name. I thought that was touching! I love a lot of things about the remake like the combat, chapter 9, the characterization of the characters. It was a great game to me but that story is really upsetting when you think about it. Also, about two months ago, I was talking about how it would have been fitting if Roche was final villian. Like his obsession with Cloud would make him rise the ranks to become 1st class and we get more reasons to why Cloud could have possibly quit SOLIDER. Any aspect to keep the mystery of Cloud and Sephiroth. I thought the whispers were just the spirit of the Ancient. Like Aerith could see them and her touching people would make other see them. But my ideas went out the window when I saw that ending. I don't know. I just want something other than defying fate theme....
@@estania Yeah I thought the whispers were either the Ancients intervening or Sephiroth corrupting the life stream, which still feels messy but cohesive and interesting. But nope... I thought it was interesting to keep one of the Avalanche members alive, and having the most cartoony one too. That way you could be reminded of the loss of Jessie and Biggs when, idk, you run into Wedge at Cosmo Canyon.
@@bzdjorde I agree! I thought the whispers were the ancients as well. I thought they figure out Sephiroth's plan and they contacted Aerith to be their messenger to bring the party together to stop him or something along those sorts. That way the original story is intact but they add some more detail in the story to make more flesh out. I get what you are saying about Wedge. That could work as well! But nope, we got this instead. I really don't know how they are going to continue to follow the original story after ending part 1 on such a big note like that. Like huh?! They defeated destiny itself so why should I care?! They are like over powered for no apparent reason at this point?! I wish someone had review this before they release this game. But what do I know, I'm just some random girl!
Disagree, barret not hiring cloud again was exactly the reason why we as the player could not go down the pinball elevator this time in remake, they wanted cloud to join on his own by kicking him out first and then playfully teasing him to join by throwing a party and he can only join if we wants to be with avalanche again
I think this is a superb review, well-balanced, well-written, and hits all the right notes. But as someone who quite likes Crisis Core - though god, it has issues - I can say that I did. Not. Want. Zack to be brought back. One of the best things about Crisis Core is that it has the courage to kill off its protagonist. Zack's death is meaningful because it's purely personal - it's a game which has heroism as a core theme but only Zack achieves this by just a very simple act of loyalty, out in the middle of the Midgar wasteland, with no-one to appreciate that sacrifice other than Cloud himself - who is of course emotionally devestated by it. IMO, it's more emotionally impacting than Aerith's death in the original game. (At least, it was for me) The fact that the devs have brought him back in the Remake is just a sign of their bad taste and inability to appreciate a good story, not ours. And you know what that means - yup, Aerith is going to live in the Remake. In fact, everyone is going to live. Nobody ever dies. Ever. We can change things. Make it right! (The Remake telegraphs its intentions in a big way IMO, but this line from Aerith above all else is crystal clear on the point. They may pull back from that in response to how the first part was recieved, but as is, Remake part one is full steam ahead to fanfic fix-it land) The devs have heard all those regrets over Zack and Aerith's deaths, and they are going to take them entirely, one hundred percent literally. I think Remake has some good points, some of which you outlined, but in story terms they have utterly ruined the inheritance of the original game and, yes, even Crisis Core, in favour of misguided fanservice and empty spectacle and pomposity.
I call the whispers the "ballsacks/scrotums of fate" that's what they look like. Easily the worst inclusion. Also Sephi is like join me cloud which cloud denies but then totally kills fate for sephi which you'd think would be playing into sephi's new plan.
Excellent and well-made review. This video was recommended by someone on Reddit when I posted my own video that's on my channel, and I'm glad it was recommended. I completely agree with your point about characters being overpowered; it's hard to really tell what conflicts do, and don't, prove challenging for them considering the feats we've witnessed (especially in the ending lol). I also appreciate you mentioning how Avalanche didn't cause the destruction of the Sector 1 Mako Reactor. You're the only other reviewer that I've seen address that fact. I also love the discussion of the ending and how the characters no longer act like themselves. Really, really great review. Keep it up.
Was excited to finally be able to play the game after it recently came to PC but was ultimately disappointed. It has good moments, but the convoluted plot and padded storyline completely sucked the fun out of it. So cathartic to see my gripes with the game being articulated so well. Great video!
You did a great job of putting words to a lot of my thoughts and feelings towards FF7 and Advent Children. I always hated the way that they've been to do all of those superhero acrobatics ever since AA, but I've almost gotten so used to seeing it that I've stopped putting words to my disapproval. I've also been talking about the lack of death in the remake as well. I thought they were building up Avalanche for a big gut punch, but nope. And it's super confusing to me how this isn't a common feeling towards the remake, but you're right, from what I've seen, most people like it... it's confusing as hell to me. Excellent review!
Excellent review. I agree on your parts that explain the good. As for the bad and ugly are thought provoking. As a casual player I am in for the ride and enjoy but now after playing it, I wonder about some of the questions you posed. Now I’m curious about what episode 2 will give. The whispers were the strange addition to this game that got me scratching my head and then it goes into the Destiny fight which for some reason reminded me of FF13 and Lightning’s fight with God...
just found your content and enjoying it! I also have mixed feelings about the remake. i hate the "padding" as well, the upper plate is a barren wasteland without even a single treasure or NPC, and this is the supposed reason we can't fit everything into one game is junk content that adds nothing except our "hero" stealing from a sick person. SMH the Barret getting stabbed scene was absolutely ludicrous, apparently our characters have plot armor. Absu wiped me out because I couldn't control where my party member stood and you have to fight him twice! I hate AI controlled party member with a passion. the end game bosses were a joke i beat on my first try. now I've already fought the big bad easily & have nothing to look forward to this game has ZERO replay value, I've replayed the original like 20 times, having fun saving Aerith with the Yuffie glitch and playing New Threat 2.0 with updated graphics & content, always finding something new. FF7 Remake didn't deliver what I wanted as a fan, except with the voice acting and character models. I'm on the fence about playing Rebirth...
Those ghosts are a trash concept on their own... Let alone the fact they are a big delibrate planned out fuck you to thousands of fans who helped make square what they are in the 90s. Theyre literally telling me they dont give af about me and didnt make this game for me.
They should've expanded on the original story instead of adding new subplots that don't naturally blend in with the story like the R.E Remakes did. The purpose of a Remake isn't to give a fresh experience with the story. In this games case People mainly just wanted modernized graphics and maybe add on to what was already there.
I agree with just about everything you said except for the filler content. I really didn't mind them expanding on Midgar at all in the remake. Maybe it's because I found the combat system fun and enjoyed all the world building. I loved the remake, but the whisperers and fates were just bad writing. I'm okay with them changing the plot some in the remake, but the whisperers and having everyone get resurrected doesn't work with the overall theme.
Also about Roche, love em or hate em... was so random and pointless it would have been better if after we met in chapter 4 he becomes a souped up version as the final boss of part 1 due to hojos experiments/mako soldiers. Maybe seeing him go mad for power as he is going through the degradation process or your idea in the video instead of random fate timeline shit at the end. That would be new and interesting without jumping the shark and shooting the FF vii plot in the face
Really like this idea of Roche being affected by Hojo's experiments/mako poisoning - would lay the groundwork for Cloud's story nicely too. And explores the whole lab experiments from a human angle, without dragging us through a lengthy filler lab section where we fight all of Hojo's freaks.
Did you feel that Chadley's character was utterly ridiculous and had no place in the game? Come on, Hojo's android betraying him? How does that even work. He must have been some crappy scientist to allow a lame ass kid robot to bypass his orders and help the enemy instead. And the summons. I think this was a great missed opportunity. Didn't you have a problem about how we get them? Wth, virtual simulation? Imagine if they added just one large cavern in scrap boulevard as part of a side quest after you kill wrath hound. And you find ifrit there and fight him to obtain the ifrit materia. Imagine if in chapter 6 at the sun lamps area there's an extra chamber where you encounter shiva. How about an additional area in the sewers with unstable currents where they encounter Leviathan? They could have added extra story like 1. These materia are a result of concentrated mako (since midgar has so many reactors it makes sense). Or 2. They are abandoned shinra experiments left to cascade uncontrollably hence why those areas are relatively abandoned and left to rot. They could have easily done this, since there were already boss battles for all the summons. Just add an extra large cavern fot the fight. Don't you think it would have so much more satisfying? And Chadley's Intel missions could still exist. But don't you think it would make far more sense if Chadley was part of avalanche rather than a Shinra intern? Since they've already expanded Avalanche as a full scale organization in this remake, it would make a lot more sense!
Definitely agree with your points. Makes perfect sense. Chadley is another example of how things don't make sense at character level. How would a character like Chadley exist and be given free rein under the eyes of a control freak such as Hojo? I think, much like FF13 which has the floating item dispensers, they just used Chadley as a materia dispenser, so they didn't have to build scenarios around obtaining the summons. As you say, they could have made that part way more exciting. The closest thing to that feeling was finding the Choco Mog summon in the fan. Nice ideas.
I just don't even wanna play it and I got it for free😢 the writing and story are just too watered down yet needlessly convoluted and it feels like a complete cash grab. In all honesty it feels like a bit of a slap in the face.
100 percent agree! to us real fans who like good storytelling it's a sad day realizing all they did to the plotline, even if the characters personalties are on point and it looks great, this is not FF vii and a bunch of fake fans are defending it now 😭 rip to the dreams of a FF vii remake I guess... I'm not going to keep buying the parts. I don't want to fund square to keep shitting on the story I respect so much. Hopefully they at least remaster the original with updated character models and translation like FF 8-10. As much as I love FF vii those Lego models are tough to go back to
Sadly it seems like around 70 % of the fans thought that the ending was great to perfect. Around the same amount love the new direction overall. The "real fans" term should be distanced as it more or less means that someone liked the whisperers and the subversion. I passionately hate the whisperers but even if I wish for something else the damage is somewhat already done as they cannot really dig themselves out without the "it was only a dream" route. I wish that the next games will be more FF VII and less stupid shit but it would not make sense with themes and execution of the OG. This time around the whole of the story is about if they managed to actually avoid fate or not if they go back to the OG themes the first installment just had the stupidest padding imaginable.
@@vincentgraymore indeed what's done is done, and I can't help if people love the rather pointless mystery box story rather than an actual remake of a beloved story, but all I know is that the Dragonball z/13-2 ending and any of the badly written new "improvements" checked me out of the story and I won't be buying the next parts. I'm just curious for those fans of the ending will viir story last and be impactful after all the subversion and hype wears off in a couple years? Will the plot itself be remembered as legendary like the og I honestly don't think so... no one can tell me they actually felt something from this game compared to the og's masterful story telling. sorry square but the nonsense story telling is played out now especially with KH as well. Personally I want more simple but heartfelt stories again like FF 1-10 KH 1-2. So here's to FF xvi hopefully getting the series back on track but I don't care for FF vii nomuras wild ride edition sorry I wish I could get hype and excited but I just can't I just want good stories again from square it's that simple
@@Nicholi273 Sadly the remake will most likely be the benchmark now to forever (or next remake-remake). After the next installments have been released the remake will be "complete" and people will probably go to that first (just like what a remake is actually supposed to be, a retelling captured with modern technology). OG lacks voice, has 3d graphics that most young people will never tolerate, and combat that modern and probably future standard will never be favored again and most fans of FF seem to want FF VII remakes combat to be standard for FF series. Which is funny because fans are naive enough to think that square will settle on a battle system, not even considering that square will most likely change the combat somewhat each installment in the FF VII remake (Only FF XIII-2 had similar combat of the basically all sequels, even DLCs to XV has different combat styles). Everyone is willing to change the story just like people that want to have a "new" retelling of Shakespeare. However, I have yet to see another retelling of a story that has something like the whisperers but perhaps not really strange for a sequel. People do not consider messing with the fabric of space and time to be anything noteworthy anymore and are willing to just accept stuff like that retconned into a world after 6 installments of different kinds of media actively working avoiding such. There are people that "felt like they did all those years ago" again but at the same time say it is not because of nostalgia and that it would be boring to play the OG... they sacrifice their beloved story just to get new content that will not be new in a few years. And many of these people are actually major FF VII fans (although probably ones that write fanfiction of Aerith surviving). I have no doubt that the OG will be relegated as what is uttered in remake, a bad outcome, and every new person that will experience the world of FF VII through the lens of the remake will consider whisperers and whatnot as a retcon at best but probably natural occurrence. Questions like "so this is what the whisperers wanted" and "where is sephiroth" will be on the mind if anyone plays the OG. In my opinion, a remake can have rather large changes but not these kinds to the story. The gameplay is one thing but this is another story as the theme and meaning are different but I do not think that any of the "named" staff even thinks so (they said that despite knowing that FF VII is like a holy cow to some people they have faith in themselves to add changes because they know what they are doing and the world of FF VII). The fan wiki is already split with "Original continuity" and "Remake continuity" (and character pictures are from the remake now). I guess that it would be unavoidable to have such categories but when I see them I just ask myself why they would strive to do a remake with as many changes as they could get away with rather than being similar. Then again, most fans wanted it so... Regarding FF XVI if it does not have a party then I am out. The developer of dragons dogmas combat is supposed to work on FF XVI but that game has "pawns" as allies and I do not want something like that in a FF series. That belongs in Disgaea (which still has main characters in combat) or other RPGs. Anyway. Not gonna nag you with more text. Take care and let's just hope that whatever FF VII series become it can stay a fond memory at least.
My thoughts exactly. Thank you for putting my feelings into better words than I ever could. Did you share your review in the ffvii or the ffviiremake subreddit? If not, it could be interesting to do so. I'd like to see the reactions!
Thanks for watching!! I haven't shared it on Reddit. I haven't had much luck sharing content in the past since it's my own stuff i'm sharing lol Got removed. Maybe it's worth a go.
Sorry that I’ve spammed your inbox with so many comments; I just found your channel. But you want to know why the Whispers suck? It wasn’t even their existence (trust me, that is _one_ of their issues). But it’s how jarring the final battles that are in chapter 18. They may be active throughout the story, but it’s the sudden dump-truck of the final moments that is the real offender. They could have been gradually revealed/realized in part 2 and, though that would have been an issue in of itself, it could have made more sense than the sudden disc 3-esq battle and what it represented. It was a double slap in the face: 1) the Whispers even exist, and 2) the jarring way you just fight and defeat them as well as Sephiroth. It’s so sloppy!
Great comment/point, and I really appreciate the comments you've left. Thank you! Agreed for sure - strange choices aside by SE, the way things play out is incredibly sloppy. You could at least try to appreciate the narrative from a storytelling standpoint if it was told in a coherent way.
See this here? This is why I don't want a Chrono Trigger remake. I might be interested in a sequel but not a remake. It's pretty sad that it's hard to recommend ffvii to new players because of dated graphics and game mechanics but I really will always love it. I enjoy remake and I'm definitely on board for more but I gotta agree that it's no replacement. I find the tone and pacing suffered the most.
I am pissed becasue I felt mislead. They should have named it FF7 reboot or reimagined instead of remake. I am officially done with anything Square-Enix.
To the Remake fanboys, it’s all about themes over substance. Heaven forbid anyone dare to dislike ham-fisted meta commentary in their new favourite Kingdom Hearts game.
The error was to expect Yoshinori Kitase to "save" FFVIIR, as he was also the "mastermind" behind Final Fantasy VIII. FFII and FFVIII were what Final Fantasy looked like when not under Sakaguchi's watchful eye.
@ItsSVO The plot is metaphysical time travel nonsense to the point that people don't know what's going on at the end of the game and theorize that Squall might be dead or something (and that's precisely what they're doing again with the FFVII sequel/remake cash grab), and the battle mechanics are so bad that people either don't understand them or quickly realize how to instantly break them and make almost the entire game a breeze.
@@ChaosAngelZero just because some people with shite comprehension didn’t understand the plot doesn’t mean it’s nonsensical, it means those people did not understand it. The squalls dead theory was and is nonsensical and created by the same idiots I was referring to before.
Honestly, I've never believed it was time travel. The planet's going nuts, and that's probably because Aerith and Sephiroth are screwing with its memories. When I stopped viewing FF7R as a time travel story and started viewing it as a planetary therapy session, it started making more sense.
@@billjacobs521 To an inhabitant of a memory, someone with knowledge of that memory would appear to be a time traveler. It’s not so outlandish when we consider a few things. 1. The planet is a character 2. The nature of Materia 3. Memory is a key theme of FF7 4. Memory is a key theme in the marketing materials of the remake games. To elaborate more on 2: Materia is the crystalline knowledge of the ancients. What is knowledge if not another name for recalled memory? One of the main reasons I’m inclined to believe that it isn’t time travel is because of the sheer malleability of events that we are witnessing. Details shift, characters are added and removed, even the chronology of events shuffles. Kind of similar to the unreliable nature of memory itself. It’s possible to convince a person that something happened in their past and watch in real time as they develop symptoms in the present (that’s what I believe Sephiroth’s plan is, by the way). And then there are the small details that add up. How did the ghosts in the train yard know about Marlene? Why does the same sound effect play when Aerith and Sephiroth use their powers to influence people? Why is the preservation of canon important enough to be a part of the story? When I think about these things, there’s only one thing that makes sense: we are viewing the memory of the planet - a frail and broken thing. Granted, there are a few elements of the leap in logic that I didn’t cover (primarily because I’m typing this on a phone). Also, if the planet had localized time powers, Meteor wouldn’t be a threat.
all they needed to do for a solid ending would have been to move the Jenova fight to after motorball. The ghosts could have been a new plot point and further exspansion on Weapons lore and the planet being sentient instead of lazy badly implemented timeline janitor BS. Those two things and reducing Sephiroth appearences would have made this experience a million times better. Shinra blowing up the reactor was stupid though. Im even okay with some of the Team surviving the plate drop, but again this was stupid. From on high it's a wasteland. On the ground the roads have already been snow shoveled and everyones just drinking coco.
I couldn’t agree more with what you said, but at the same time I am desperate to see these characters continue to interact and have more details added to their individual lores. The 3rd game could be Cloud wakes up at the station by Tifa and it was all a dream at the end. I would still be happy for the chance play with these characters again.
This is the difference between people I guess. Personally I love the story of FF7 and that’s what shapes the characters we know and love. If that story is no longer the same then neither are the characters truly. I always try and imagine another franchise doing what SE did with remake. Imagine a game of thrones with fate and a separate timeline where Ned stark lives. It changes the whole dynamic of the story, means robb doesn’t rally the north against the Lannister’s etc. there’s a massive ripple effect that time travel and alternative timelines cause when they’re present in story, especially when the story they’re in was never supposed to.
You do you man, but this is the kind of mentality that basically fuels guys like Nomura--you're "desperate" for whatever they have to offer, so you lap it up. It's why FF as a whole has gone off the rails.
@@billjacobs521 I’m gonna start thinking your out to contradict every post I’ve made about FF VII. Yeah, I admit that I’m desperate for any FFVII content. But it’s my money, so I choose to keep buying new stuff (good, bad, or silly). And you…you always have the original to go back to, so enjoy the new pc mods and leave us the crazy Nomura stuff to the rest of us
Maybe from this point onward FF7R will remain consistent with the original game's story, and the whispers were just a needlessly elaborate setup for an alternate timeline Zack spinoff title to be released independently. Or maybe FF7R will ultimately have multiple routes, with the original's plot being one of several possible outcomes. ...Or maybe that's a little too ambitious. The fact that they've stated that from here on out they won't be deviating too much from the original makes you wonder, though, what the point of the whispers was beyond the cheeky metacommentary.
I was going to do a video like this… but you echo my feelings so well I am just going to share your video. Can you do one on how well this game actually sold too? Looking at the numbers I have I can’t say it bombed, but I can’t say it’s a runaway hit either, and I’d like your perspective.
Thanks for checking out the video, Daniel! And cheers for the suggestion. Speaking of sales, I'll be very interested how sales are on Remake Part 2 because SE captured a lot of original FF7 fans with this game. I know a few friends in particular who hadn't thought about FF in 20 years after beating FF7 and came back for Remake. But by the game's ending, they didn't have a clue what was going on. They didn't understand who Zack was, what the whispers were, etc. Plus they were frustrated that the game was only Midgar and missing some of their favourite characters. So they've essentially checked out now. Maybe all the new fans will fill the void, but who knows.
21:41 I love the new theories and stuff...but it's clear, the more questions we ask, the more a flawed plot seems to be on the horizon...but this game was very good, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
If u want to make it Midgar only, have Roche be the final boss with Motor Ball and then finish with the Kalm memory. Zack should’ve not been in this game. I don’t know why people don’t realize that Crisis Core was a cash grab with a ham story. Aerith and Cloud were a relationship more because of Cloud’s personality shining through his Zack confidence. “I want to meet… you” said Aerith on the gondola. This idea that Zack and Aerith were fated to be together is so stupid and is shallow story telling. This game was the biggest disappointment. It was like somebody wished for a FF7 remake on a monkey’s paw
Kind of a random critique but it’s wild how Sephiroth in particular has been mischaracterized. Something that stood out to me is in Remake, Sephiroth constantly speaks in eloquent riddles that make little sense, and he seems to take pleasure in the confusion he’s sowing.. But in the original (according to translations) Sephiroth spoke pretty casually! He could be pretty straightforward, and if something he said didn’t make sense, it was clearly because Sephiroth was *batshit insane* and didn’t care if anyone understood. Remake takes away this aspect of his character that made him (in my opinion) seem volatile and unhinged.
Because sephiroth became a tropey mustache twirling villain in advent children and has remained so since. In the OG he is a grey character in many respects and is sympathetic to a degree once we hear more of his backstory. While his actions aren’t justifiable, his mental break that leads him there is at least understandable. SE took this and then turned him into every anime villain ever, spewing monologues and weirdly obsessed with cloud when in the OG it was actually the opposite, sephiroth didn’t really acknowledge cloud at all.
Plus alot of people, including Nomura and Nojima apparently, forgot or never realized that Sephiroth is barely in the "present" of FF7--we're chasing Jenova the whole game. After Nibelheim, Seph gets to the North Crater and that's the only place he ever is. Jenova is characterized clearly as a shape-shifter, as someone who plays off people's memories, who gets close and then strikes, which is how she destroyed the entire race of the Cetra--that's who we're dealing with, and all of her behavior is that of the manipulator (although she might legitimately have not known who Cloud was at first). So Sephiroth wasn't even the one fucking with Cloud, yet those two thing he is OBSESSED with Cloud (Nomura even said, way back when FF7 was new, that they were "rivals", that's how disconnected from reality Nomura is).
Square Enix took FF7R down the dark path Marvel took MCU after Endgame, no stakes, multiverse, nobody is really dead, all flash no substance, all the edges sanded down ... etc .. and just like the MCU, they will feel the heft of that awful decision soon enough.
Nice critique. Working on one as well, and all my references pretty much support your overall conclusions. Although, i felt like you were a bit too charitable with the writing. Up to now, i found that every single major plot point they changed from the original is significantly flawed in some way, and that the whispers are but the tip of the iceberg in this massive mess of a script.
Thanks for that. I'll keep a look out for yours when it drops. I may well have been - there was quite a bit more that was irritating me throughout the game that I sort of let slide for what I felt was the 'bigger picture' stuff.
I agree. In fact the only way ff7r makes any sense, is if the immediate scene in ff7r2 is cloud waking up after mako poisoning and the entire e ents of ff7r1 was a battle in his own mind.
A little late to the party here. I stumbled upon this video because of my big disappointment with rebirth, while also experiencing a lot of toxic bashing from FF7 fans because I just think Rebirth was a disappointment (lore wise especially). I've been a long time fan of FF7 and I just wanted a civil and intellectual discussion of rebirth and wanted to voice out my thoughts, but what happened was just toxicity from other fans. I think I was fine with Remake (except the ending), but Rebirth is a whole different story. While this might not be the appropriate video to voice out my opinions, I was wondering if you have a rebirth critique video?
Thanks very much for the comment! I'm working on a Rebirth video at the moment. If you're looking for a community where you can openly discuss all things FF7 (good and bad), please have a look at my latest community post 👍
@@orion8550 thanks! I am looking forward to a community wherein I can voice out my grievances about both remake and rebirth. Coz I tried voicing out in FF VII groups but I only got toxic replies from fans of the remake.
I actually enjoy FF7R, but I thought these were extremely valid, level headed critiques. I guess my belief is that we'll always have the original game and I don't think any remake could ever truly replace it. I find FF7R to be a fun, albeit self indulgent companion piece. But as someone whose favorite game is FF7, I totally understand (and agree with) many of people's gripes.
I agree with so much you said in the video, padding is awful, alternative timelines, and whisper ghosts really fucked up a lot, but rebirth has been great so far and fixed lots of gameplay issues.
Very good video. Any decent writer could have done a better job than Nomura did. Most people are blinded by the good graphics and the stylish combat. For me the game was the biggest disappointment of 2020, well maybe except for that covid thing going on. Your points about the story made me think and I really don't see how they can proceed from here. They have written themself into a corner and I don't think that they will recover from it. Right now it isn't obvious for a lot of people yet, but I assume things will get way more crazy. GOT level of crazy.
Well, according to game awards 4 people were credited with story and while Nomura wasn't on the list it is hard to not see him having a hand in this. What is strange is that a remake has that many writers. I do realize that they needed to flesh out dialogue and such but 4 writers for that? It is a warning sign for any story. Anyway, not going different enough makes the themes and ending statement more or less more "lies/halftruths" and going similar will just upset those that wanted the difference, even if they claim this after the fact rather than wanted it before release. I seldom see a fan that realize that they are on the next list of fans to disappoint, even if they are the ones thinking Zack must die or Zack must survive. "Cautiously optimistic" is the description I get and when speaking to these people they always speak of fan theories or have their own version of how SE "will" handle things. Some people also dismiss the ending or even the whole part with the whisperers as Clouds delusions and everyone thinks that SE will stay away from introducing something new stupid, which I do not understand since we did get something new stupid in the first part that was crazy and there is nothing to stop these developers that value plot subversion in a remake from doing it again. When the next parts come things cannot stay in "possibilities" and since this first part has created large camps regarding most things, perhaps the largest Aeriths death/non-death, it is impossible to please everyone. I am still shocked when I see people saying they want Tifa to die instead or even worse, Cloud. I also think people are blinded by what in their eyes are nostalgia (seeing the characters again) and spectacle (the combat do look really great and feels good to play). People expect radical changes but does not think they want radical changes (that break FF VII), and they also want changes but only changes that please themselves and very few people even consider how this remake is objectively strange for new people. I get that it is most likely just a sequel created by time meddling, but I do not know if SE themselves think it actually is. In their mind it might just be a remake and even if they did make this as a sequel then I am sure they just thought it's clever to make a remake and sequel even though that combo is not really valid. I just wanted to say that I agree with this being the biggest disappointment of 2020, perhaps even a decade. Covid-19 does not affect me much so FF VII remake was more important to me.
@@vincentgraymore While there are 4 writers credited, Kitase said in an interview from 17.04.20 with Frontline that "Overall direction and concept, story and worldbuilding was left to Nomura". So he made the final decisions. In a later interview from 24.05.20 with Pushsquare it was suddenly Kitase that wanted to more changes with Nomura and Hamaguchi being the Hero's that "Kept the beloved aspects as much as possible". Given the way the story turned out, I also find it hard to see Nomura not having a hand in this. I won't hold my breath for part 2, but given how much FF7 means to me I will probably still be disappointed if they do something stupid with it. The problem with all the camps that were created is: There already was a magnificent story. As sad as Aerith's death made me, it was important to happen for Cloud to grow as a character. Taking this away, or even worse, making him a tragic hero that has to sacrifice himself would have nothing to do with what the original intended. The original was about a boy, that wanted to become a Soldier to impress the girl he liked. A boy that first had to be protected by Zack and later by Aerith until he found the strengh to stand on his own and make peace with a past, where he was not able to protect anyone. Sephiroth marked the final adversary for this journey and now that he is already beaten, I have to ask myself...what now? What motivation does Cloud have now? The entire plot of the original would not make sense anymore, so they have to come up with something new. The FF7: Remake has so much potential and I fear it will be wasted.
@@maik7853 I also read those statements, and they are the seeds of confusion among the fans but who can blame them. Not everyone follows interviews etc, and it should by no means be necessary and might in the end tell us nothing more than fluff. Seeking someone to blame is not really productive either. All in all it is a group effort, but I think that officially we can only blame those that are credited for whatever they wanted to be credited for. This also means that Nomura as director still carry the most responsibility and perhaps then Kitase as he is a producer (then again normally here in the west at least we do put blame on directors and not producers). In my opinion the remake cannot realign and has already destroyed itself from being a remake by flash forwards (that might not happen) with comments of disdain towards the outcome of the OG, spoiling important things (like Cloud killed Sephiroth and not being in soldier) and a world mechanic that makes Gaia more or less look like an evil tyrant that just uses everything as its pawns. It also ripples back into the OG as a sequel that makes me ask myself a lot of stupid questions I never wanted nor did ask in the past about events and how/why things unfold. The fact that people want things even more complicated (like whisperers being jenovaroth and an even more convoluted story that lies and twists constantly) just makes the whole thing worse from the OG perspective. With risk of upsetting any and every fan, the OG to me is worse because of the remake, which is something I never thought would happen. I also think that they should just do their new stuff and please the masses as it seems like most people simply want this "new". Remove all classic scenes and craft new instead of mixing it all into a strange warped version of FF VII that refuse to toss aside the old yet cannot walk on its own. After all it is already warped/twisted as it leaves us with a legacy of change from FF VII OG and the praise of being "ballsy" is not by being more FF VII. To me the "potential" of this remake project is purely on being a game now, the story can only go worse as I do not see any solution that makes me like the world of FF VII more than less now. This part 1 makes me want a closer 1:1 continuation but that would just be stupid writing. Which is a shame because I loved much of the remake and in general I love the world and Cloud but seeing time ghosts and developers clear drive to use their work for something new rather than wanting to show new people why it was great to begin with makes me physically ill (which is only worsen by most fan saying that this game is better, is the real story and makes FF VII brand as a whole better and people saying that there is so much love poured into the game by the developers, which I do not doubt, but it is also the wrong kind of love according to me). The next game can be a cool story and good game, but I already hate it because of part 1 and that taints my ability to accept whatever they do.
1. I agree with every complaint he has. 2. I'd like to add my own.... why is there sunlight in the slums? The slums are supposed to be gritty and crime infested. By the time you get to Aeriths house, I'm wondering why there aren't more flower's. In the original, it was beautiful the way her house was the only place to have sunlight shine through. My second complaint is why does Jesse flirt with cloud? Now we have every female protagonist in love with the main character.... who is he James Bond? Completely unnecessary and misogynistic. You took a smart, female character who was integral to the group and turned her into some hyper sexed up distraction. What did it add to her character or the story?
Thanks for commenting! Good points. I guess they took those small moments of Jessie admiring Cloud in the original and dialed it all the way the hell up. Everything has to be right on the nose in SE's writing. If you're interested, please check out my critique of Intermission DLC, where I touch on the sunlight aspect too ruclips.net/video/uP_YxSDNSAE/видео.html
Yep, just started the video, but it's always been my theory that the graphical limitations, plus Hironobu Sakaguchi's presence, is what made the PSX trilogy so different from the current direction of the series. You can't show the characters doing over the top acting when the characters expressivity is so limited.
I agree with all your points. but I think it's better to take this as a sequel instead, which is in fact kinda the case. If we consider the game like a nice return to this world and not waiting to have a blast like the first one. It's fine by me. When I think about it, I had a great time finishing it, one of my best games of those last years. Even that I hated some parts of it and some details really pissed me off (wtf some music... wtf the controls and those time where you have to pass some small passage where cloud walk so slowly, wtf some random sidequest mobs being stronger than bosses and so on...). I think the "good" part you greatly describe is more than enough to be able to appreciate the game. And we should not overthink it and not focus too much on the bad parts. That said, I kinda like the haunted train/hangar parts(remind me a bit of ff6). Liked the music and ambiance there!! And l like the sewer part too for the same reason!
Thanks for checking out the vid and sharing your thoughts! I hear you. There was a lot I liked about it, and I have a lot of good memories around playing this game - can't believe it's almost been a year - feeling a little nostalgic. For me, the fact that the game hit some great notes made the bad notes (weird story choices especially) harder to take. A sense of frustration like...damn SE you had it right there at times...
Or instead of just taking us out of the city hell expand more on Midgar give us other sectors to explore give us more character moments as avalanche goes through the rest of the reactors you could tell 3 games worth of a story in midgar hell let us explore the high ways but no they wasted that potential there was so much lore and things to explore just in midgar.
I feel like I, a random asshole on the internet, could have done a better job making the Midgar section fill a game. What if getting back from the first reactor bombing was, you know, hard? What if you had to go underground locally, duck from safe house to safe house, avoid sweeping patrols, all while hearing and seeing the destruction you caused, people cursing the terrorists that killed their family members working in the reactor? You know, not crap like powering up an elevator, actual story content. Maybe have the Turks be more present, hunting you down like the FBI stand-ins they are. Maybe put as much work into Biggs and Wedge as they did Jessi (and, you know, make Jessi actually consistent between her backstory and current characterization). The plate dropping probably WOULD have been more impactful if we knew the people of the slums more, and they actually freaking died. Also, it would have been cool to be OUT of the slums more; there's a gigantic city on top of the plate too, give us some missions up there, and I don't mean eating pizza. I realize I'm just spitting out ideas, but hell, alot of the padding sections were also just random-ass ideas that they didn't develop at all from a writing perspective.
We've went from "unreliable narrator" (OG FF7) to "unreliable developers" (remake). In all seriousness, this is one of the most bizarre things, it's like reading interviews and newly released materials for new AAA games (Cyberpunk 2077, FF7 Remake, etc.) will just only set us up for disappointment and confusion, as the readers and audience question which bits and pieces are the truth, and which ones are just flat out lies. The only thing Nomura has definitely not lied about in one of his interviews is that Remake does not replace the original game. Ah well, I can't lie and say I'm done with Square Enix, because I'm giving them one more shot with XVI after how fun XIV 2.0 is (not to mention how complete an experience the base game is, with actual expansions that add so much new content), and how blunt and serious of a producer/director Naoki Yoshida is from his interviews and commentary on how screwed up the video game industry is right now. Just the right amount of cynicism to keep standards high and even going as far to say to not release any new information to avoid frustration and disappointment like what we've seen with new AAA games released as of late. Good on YoshiP for learning from Nomura and Kitase outright lying to the public about much of this project.
@@orion8550 He's definitely Square Enix's final lifeline, especially since his team, under his leadership, saved the company from utter collapse after being in the red during the 2013 fiscal year, after all the money SE sank into this 2.0 overhaul development pipeline. He definitely earned his chance to right the wrongs brought about by 15+ years of turmoil and stagnation from the old guard (whether it's Hiromichi Tanaka's ilk or Nomura/Kitase's ilk within the company).
Couldn’t agree more. God forbid you make any of these points on any SE social media posts related to FFVIIR and you’ll get swarmed by an army of soy induced weebs and fanboys. I’m glad people are calling it out and cutting through the paid positive reviews and nonsense. Well done
No one seems to talk about the fact that Roach kinda looks like a younger Angeal with different hair style and color. A new Angeal copy perhaps? Altered by Hojo? Would be an interesting spin on the sequal story.
It took me half of the game to really appreciate the combat system. The story is great but the level designs needs improvement. Overall, a truly awesome game. Above GOT but below TLOU2 and Nioh2 for 2020 games.
Honestly, I think you're too nice to the game. The characterization still feels all off to me, like over simplified and turned up to 11 (except Tifa), and alot of music remixes are overdone, drowning out the main melody with excessive backing instruments. Which go together well, I suppose; no damn subtlety to ANYTHING in this game. Well, except when they confuse "subtle" with "vague and cryptic BS." The voice acting also seems too on-the-nose; Barret is a charismatic and dedicated leader, so they made him a showboating, theatrical blowhard. Western gamers often complain that JRPGs are too ridiculously over-the-top and this team seems determined to prove them right. And honestly, if they wanted to change the story...just change the story. The stupid fate ghosts just weren't necessary. I get that remakes change things--it's usually a downgrade, but I could far more easily tolerate simply changing it than trying to include metaphysical justification for it. Because all that really does, besides being distracting in and of itself, is draw attention to the changes. It makes Nomura and Nojima out to be spiteful, trying to rub it in the fans' faces that they can do anything they want, which ultimately makes them seem cowardly and lacking in confidence--they can't just give us their version of the story and stand by it, they have to include all this pretentious BS to make themselves seem so smart (I still put most of the blame on Nomura because this is exactly the kind of thing he loves).
**Intermission DLC Critique Video here** >> ruclips.net/video/uP_YxSDNSAE/видео.html
Cool critique! I just wish to offer some counter arguments to your criticism which I think are very well founded!
1)the over usage of sepiroth. I’ve read some reviewers and even the developers themselves have said thst sephrith’s appearances are meant to add to. The ambiguity of cloud’s me memory, to the ambiguity of sephorth’s plan, and to avoid repeating the original story. So the OG as you were right, made the one winged angel this mysterious guy-hero or villain or neither? Was he dead? That introduction to a villain was novel in 1997, and the success of ff7 made it clear that even non gamers would be familiar with WHO he is. So having the suspense prob wouldn’t work as well on the modern gamers (both new and old) as one might hope. This sephiroth however like aerith has seen what will happen, and he is more intent on beating cloud and his crew. And he is still the same evil person that we know and love; he does trick our heroes into beating destiny.
2)death. You’re right that the OG game shocked audiences by killing characters that didn’t usually die. Death was this unavoidable force, no revivals, no last minute words, regrets, and only hopes that you were a good person; even crisis I core did this well. However, other stories have used this powerful tool and asrith’s death is so commonly known that it’s impossible to recapture what one felt in 1997. A remake would just be a graphically impressive retelling of a famous tale, but the remake decided that it can do something new and make us question what will happen. And it’s not like the OG timeline dosnt exist or that you didn’t feel that Biggs, Jessie and others weren’t capable of dying. It was an unexpressed twist for the remake to change the timeline but things can get worse or not. Death is still here-it’s just been delayed. We will have to see.but we have the OG game, and now this remake is changing things while remaining tied to the OG timeline.
3)avalanche and it’s guilt. The remake I’d argue dosnt actually make shinra sympathetic. They still cause the most damage to the planet, they create monsters, they still are willing to essentially rape aerith (good thing they made planet’s reaction to that info in the remake more realistic). Avalanche however is still presented as a flawed group. It’s clear it sent bids don’t work, that they played into shinra’s hands, that it was them who gave shinra the idea to blow up a reactor to cause City wide destruction, and that Barrett is more akin to guy hyping his ego to prevent any doubts from seeping into his mind (there’s a great analysis of Barrett’s words and body actions on RUclips somewhere).
A 1 to 1 remake would have made the game way too short because if you sum up the entire story of FF7 it would only take you an 1hr to recreated the dialogue and 15min for a voice actors to tell their part.
the biggest problem with modern games is that they require almost movie lvl scripts. if you had made it using FF7 original dialogue we would have large spaced out parts with almost no story.
in the original the story only told you 3 things why it happening who is doing it and where you have to go in a modern game that is bare bones. I don't like the remake as much as the original, but I can understand why they are filling out the game with all these pointless stories.
The way a story is read and the way you tell it are completely different monsters. so I can see why they changed a lot of things. even movie directors and actors change what is written on the script and replace many things because they don't translate well when you act them out it is the same with a game that now has full character animation where they act out their action and it's not just a text box telling you about them. then there is also the voice acting which changes how the story is told instead of you reading about it.
I agree with a lot of your points. in fact if it were up to me this game would have been 3cd long and sold as complete game just like the original. I like what they did with midgard, but I hate that they added the ghosts to the story it kind of makes it feel like kingdom heart 2 in some aspects.
If they wanted to please both sides they could have just made the game do both stories the original and the alternative in one game so that those who wish to see a 1 to 1 can enjoy it.
I can understand why they didn't do a 1 to 1 since the story would have been way too on the midgard portion, but right after you leave midguard and get past calm village there isn't much to do or story it would be a big portion of you traveling to chocobo ranch getting a chocobo and getting past the giant snake and meeting the turks who don't even fight you in this part. it a giant blank with no story and it would be too much work to try and fill it in with anything.
that's not the only giant portion of the game with no story, but because it works on ps1 with everything explain on a text box we just blank out and head in the direction instructed to us this doesn't work well when creating a giant world. specifically if they try and make it open world the game will be filled with way too many empty areas of nothing but random encounters. I really do hope they don't make this open world.
If they do make it open world I hope they do add more towns and cities to it the world in the original was way too big with very few towns and cities spread too far apart. just like in real life a city the size of midgard would have towns and neighboring city that cater to those who might not want to live in fast pace and chaotic city.
with the level of technology the original FF7 lacked roads which is something incredibly dumb for a city filled with greed needs speedy amount of resources with no roads they can't exactly get steady supplies of any kind of resources.
Can we talk about how we didn’t get to use the pinball machine to go into the hideout 😢
There's also no consistency in how the whispers act. Sometimes they act before the change of script occur, and sometimes they act later, as if they were tidying things up.
We are not clear either on who is able to see the whispers. The general explanation seems to be that someone been touched by Aerith (and then Cloud), can acquire the ability of seeing them, but that doesn't fit either. Rufus and Rude should both be able to see them.
Those who defend that everything is fine because whispers will be gone in part 2 need to consider if it's acceptable to leave these unsolved questions with no answers.
Totally agree. At this point it's going to annoy me more if Part 2 is a 1:1 remake. It would be a backtrack. They need to go full ham down the new road they've created. Unfortunately, many of us might not survive until the end.
The Whisperers are Literal Dementors used to Clean up the mess that is Sirius Black and Harry Potter who goes off the script, I mena Cloud Ptter.
@@orion8550 I also shared your views on Zack, I understand the fandom appeal to the character but he seems quite flat character to me with an over-sized role in FF7 and that he works best as Cloud's deceased inspirational hero that he compares himself to and tries to measure up.
Additionally I think I feel that their motivation of going through the singularity should have been to defeat Sephiroth. The dialogue should have been them initially them not understanding what the portal is but wanting to find Sephiroth thus decides to follow him but afterwards fighting the Arbiters of Fate not understanding they changed destiny by doing so.
Rude, yes. Rufus, no. Rude fights bare fisted like Tifa so when fighting Cloud he most certainly made contact unless you somehow gave a perfect fight. Rufus, on the other hand, fights entirely with guns, leaving Darkstar to do any physical contact attacks. You could say Cloud contacted Rufus, but that depends on how you view Cloud's weapon. Cloud doesn't fight with his fists, so he never actually makes physical contact with Rufus directly. Only his sword does.
I'd like to stress that I'm not defending the choice to use the Whispers in the story, only that it does make sense that Rufus doesn't see them. Rude should see them though, and so should Reno because Rude puts his hand on Reno's shoulder after he made direct contact with Cloud.
@@propheinx2250 Here is a video speculating on the topic:
ruclips.net/video/MnzTI1AMoZg/видео.html
For some reason, the wall climb of the original was iconic to me. It represented the time it was made so well in aesthetics while again illustrating the stark contrast of the Midgar near caste system. It was beautifully simple. In the remake, the wall climb is so convoluted, so much filler to get to a "press X to proceed" chapter marker. Of course, this was after so much backtracking and bizarre choices, that all enthusiasm for the game was long gone. I doubt I will be going further with this series. A simple moment ruined, one among many. I don't want to think about what the future has in store.
Very well said. I completely agree.. The mix between the two worlds. And that triumphant music playing in the background as you make the climb. They were desperate to drag out Remake anywhere they could find.
I mean the games cover comes from the wall climb
I prefer remakes wall climb by a margin, bonding time with the team, seeing the aftermath of the plate drop most of the time, teamwork in many occasions while being hunted by shinra, opinions are just opinions in the end
The mental gymnastics some 'fans' do to justify the changes made to the remake really baffle me. They equate subversion with quality and claim if something is new or unexpected it must be better than something youve seen before by default. Their ideas about how a game should be almost make it seem like they have an attention deficit disorder where they are unable to enjoy a game unless it is constantly throwing twists and gotchas at them. They prefer spectacle over substance and seem to be able to ignore 110% of a games flaws provided it looked cool and had cute characters for them to ship. Thats not even mentioning the sheer gall they have to tell fans of the original game 'go and play the original if you dont like the changes', 'the changes dont matter because the original still exists', 'the game was meant to annoy purists like you', 'the game clearly wasnt made for you'. If these people want so bad to change an existing story to the extent that it is essentially a different game, simply to get a dopamine hit from the slightly altered experience, why do they not go and make their own new game? Why butcher an existing story for such a pathetic reason? Naturally its because Square does know their 'fanbase' and knows exactly how to exploit them for a quick buck. I fear this will only continue having seen that they have the cheek to release paid dlc for an episodic release, and also want to create a gacha and battle royale out of FF7 - which are essentially the top 2 genres for making money at the moment.
Is it really that different?
think before you sleep brought me to your review of FF7 Rebirth... I'm here now because of how good your content is... Keep it up brother
Same here
It’s interesting watching this a year after playing the game. I still cannot believe how bad it was and how baffling so many of the decisions were by square Enix. We are living in a age of subversion and it all feels like a cope out. This story is bonkers and reads like it was written by a 15 year old attempting his first fantasy novel. It’s soul crushing and you feel the weight of corporate gaming behind every move.
I share the same feeling word for word. Big fan of the darker, more real side of the original ff7.
10/10 review. No overly critical and arbitrary slew of emotional opinions. A critique deeply rooted in your truth and experience. I really want Tetsuya Nomura to see these videos, and allow this beautiful remake to play and finish genuinely.
Thanks very much! That really means a lot to me.
@@orion8550 Definitely! Would love to hear your take on Kingdom Hearts 🤣
Glad I'm not the only fan to feel this way. I'm honestly at a loss as to how this "remake" garnered such a positive response, especially from longtime fans. Your critique was excellent though, and deserves way more views.
This is one of the best critique's ive heard on the remake. Its vindicating to see that im not the only person that feels this way, and that there are many others with the exact same feelings and thoughts that i had when i first played the game. Ive played through remake a few times now and i genuinely do like the game for everything that it gets right. The characters, music, graphics are top notch. But it has many flaws that are hard to get over. I preordered remake under the impression i was getting a true remake, not this reimagining. i felt scammed and tricked after the ending. I can maybe forgive the story changes, once ive wrapped my head around that this isnt my 1997 game anymore, its something new. But will it be better? Only time will tell. i am both excited and fearful for whats to come.
Oh and you're completely and totally right on Roche btw. A fully-formed non-faceless character in SOLDIER who isn't at the top of the organisation is gold to me. In the abstract I am completely on board with that as something new, and as a concept. But the execution in Roche is just... oh god no. I don't even like his visual character design. Why do we need a character with a mullet? I viscerally hate Roche in a way I haven't done with any FF character to the same extent since Seifer. Maybe that's actually what the developers were going for? If so, they definitely succeeded with me.
I guess you can say that they might give him a personality in future installments, but I don't get that vibe at all. He just feels like miniboss flavouring with characterisation as an afterthought. Complete missed opportunity.
It's funny. I was gonna learn how to video edit just to make a FF7R critique essay. But you said and pointed out literally everything I was gonna say. So, I guess I can keep being lazy.
your Roche re-write is perfection. way too smart and nuance for todays sqaure enix
Well done. Well articulated video. I think overall when SE get it good, like that Cetra section in Shinra HQ, music and the characters, they nailed it. But when they do the bad and the ugly, overused Sephi, whispers, and unnecessary plot, they drop the ball and ruin the overall experience. And it's unfortunate that the majority of the fanbase are praising this game to high heavens, and ignoring 100% of it's flaws.
Then again I feel like people will complain about not having screen time
@@genesisspace5331 Maybe some, but they wouldn't have had much ground to stand on when that's how the original story goes. Personally, I would've been perfectly happy.
@@Btotts but thing the whole him being a ghost and not seeing him wouldn’t work because we already now who he is
@@genesisspace5331 I'm not a fan of him being a ghost or whatever. If someone is coming for a remaster of a classic game, and s/he is mad because the story is playing out the way it's supposed to... I don't know what to tell him/her. Maybe episodic wasn't the way to go
"For about 15 years I'd been cautious of a final fantasy 7 remake. Ever since Advent Children..."
I share this sentiment. I was not a fan of the compilation.
It's so sad because at this game's best, it is the game of my dreams. Combat I love, characters that act like they are supposed to, awesome cinematic sequences. But the plot ghosts alone and everything tied to them just ruin the experience.
Yeah, probably the worst decision in FF history...
@@orion8550 that’s the thing about remakes why would I play the same game with newer graphics that’s why I kinda liked the new route with the whispers
@@genesisspace5331 it's not the same game. They completely fleshed out all of the characters, including adding depth to the Avalanche and Shinra characters. The whispers just add superfluousness and takes away from those additions by removing all of the stakes, killing the momentum, and adding more things to explain.
@@genesisspace5331 Resident evil remake 2002 is proof that a 1:1 remake with added content and expanded lore is enough, this, on the other hand, is a Sequel, not a remake and we no need insight, people really believe this series will be either 3 parters or that Square doesn't know how many parts and that we shouldn't criticize then which is just stupid and absurd. Basically, these Peoples want FF 7 to last forever and pay more than 800$ to enjoy it instead of just 60$ and move on.
Yes exactly that’s the slap in the face you saw they could do it right, but just to chose to be ridiculous instead.
The most important take away from ff7 remake is there are two types of fans. Fans of the actual ff7 game or fans of the ff7 compilation.
If you are a ff7 fan, the remake is a let down with story, events and character changes.
If you are a fan of the compilation, the remake is everything you wanted. Super saiyan cloud, yaoi undertones, Zack being the true hero and aeris being the waifu'est waifu.
I have this exact same opinion.
Exactly! When you've got time travel and stuff, you lose the sense of finality the original game was all about. Now just about anyone can be brought back. Anything goes and anything can be done or undone. I would like to know what happened in the meetings where they decided to do this.
Zack is my favorite FF protagonist, but I agree with most, if not all, of this.
I've also seen hours long deconstructions about subtle plots weaving this grand tapestry that's been in the works for 20 years. And it's stuff like this that makes me go "nah, if they were really capable of constructing that complex of a story, with that much foresight, then they wouldn't miss basic things like this".
All that storyline only to get confused when they added Zack in the mix. Is he a character that cheated death somehow brought back or was it all a vision? I have no idea...
This video ages like fine wine while SE further shits all over the legacy if FFVII.
Now Zack is back and full on compilation convolution is on the way. Jesus.
Lets be honest, Sakaguchi was the heart and soul of Final Fantasy. It has been pretty obvious with the games over the last couple decades, but Remake/Rebirth may as well just punched us in the face with that fact.
Best review I've seen by far. I've felt the same as you since I finished it but could never have explained it half as well. Looking forward to more.
Thanks for checking out the video! Greatly appreciated :)
Old FF7 referenced global pollution, second-class citizenship (rich vs poor), big corporate greed, terror attacks for the supposed greater good .... list goes on.
New FF7 references mostly just.. itself. "REMEMBER HECK HOUSE, REMEMBER CLOUD DRESS UP?" And that annoying "Crisis Core" combat system can go eff itself.
In the recent interview with Kitase. Even the old team made the game don't like the story is going through so there is a new team making the part 2 who like the remake.
One issue i find in final fantasy games is that they can jump really high in cutscenes and combat, but cannot jump across obstacles just so the level design is prolonged. It feels disconnected somehow, leaving me screaming "just jump, you've jumped higher than this!!!"
Regarding sephiroth, i think you're already telling the point. Square no longer hides sephiroth as the surprise villain. I'm thinking it's because he has a different role this time, that's why he was presented early. We'll probably get to see a different surprise for the main villain in the trilogy. But of course it's a maybe.
I agree about the deaths, but I'm giving square legroom. Afterall the story isn't done yet. We still get to know why they made the people appear to survive.
And regarding these workaround for deaths, remember that they already killed the arbiters, and the effect seems inter-possibility. Therefore, succeeding deaths will be truly permanent.
Good work brother! I liked your example of how Roche could have been better characterized. As he is now, he seems out of place in the story. They definitely could have fleshed him out more and made him a more compelling tangential antagonist. Instead he's literally just a random boss fight / attempted comic relief in a single chapter in the story
Hey, thanks a million for taking the time to watch. I really appreciate that! I feel if they're going to add new characters they really ought to have a real purpose in the story, and should be adding a spark. And that was something you pointed out so well in your vid - the character of Leslie. An odd amount of screen time and back story given to a remarkably boring character. Cheers again for checking it out!
@@orion8550 even so roche does make sense it always bother me how there were no soliders in the original just Turks and shinra troops
Had to watch this after your Rebirth review and yeah, just as spot on! xD I went into the Remake with no expectations and was overall really impressed by it, especially the character development (except for Aerith, but that’s a separate conversation).
However, even with how much I enjoyed it, it’s not perfect by any means. I felt there was too much filler which really removed the urgency of the plot, as you said, especially with the plate drop. Your line about “the only thing that was scary was a bug that made Aerith run in circles and Tifa look like a Blair Witch victim” made me laugh so hard, I HATED that segment so much bc it was completely pointless!! The fact that they only dialled up the filler in Rebirth is sooo frustrating.
And your points about Sephiroth are valid, as they are in Rebirth, but I love him so much that I enjoy seeing him everytime he appears! 😆 And I’m not ashamed to say it!!
And on that note - I wish more people could admit that as well. It’s okay to say that because you love a character so much, maybe you didn’t notice some of the things they do don’t make sense. It’s also okay to say that because the graphics are so sexy, it distracts you from how messy the story is sometimes. I know that’s the case for me! And it certainly has to be for a lot of others. I’m almost positive that if you tried to tell this story with lesser graphics, people would notice the flaws faster. These games literally have “pretty privledge” lmaoo.
I always get a kick out of peoples' reaction when I say Advent Children is a bad movie. I have to iterate that I still like it. It's fun to watch... but it's terrible. And when they ask why, I counter, "tell me in like 2 sentences what that movie is about." And that usually makes them realize the film makes no sense lol
This is really close to my feelings as well. I can really empathize with artists/creators returning to an old project and feeling different about it and wanting to do something new while balking under pressure to recreate what they did originally. I feel like there were some writing differences and people weren't really talking to each other. My spouse and I had these moments we called "Tetsuya Nomura is back from lunch" scenes where a moment of strong characterization was immediately followed by Kingdom Hearts style metaplot. I don't mind changes in general, but I wish they hadn't decided that one of the things that needed to change simplifying the themes. You could say that fighting destiny was A theme in the original, but that's oversimplifying it. The remake made fighting destiny THE theme, and it's honestly feels both trite and ironic coming from SE at this point.
The only quibble I have with your critique is the implication that part of the problem was that the game was Midgar only. I agree that the execution was terrible, from Whispers, to the pacing, and so on, but Midgar does feel like a solid chapter in it of itself and the break there is natural. Had they expanded on Midgar with ideas such as your rewrite on Roche, or perhaps have a willingness to leave Cloud's perspective at times they could've easily expanded on Midgar without sacrificing pacing. For example, I think it would have been fantastic to have a perspective change when Cloud falls from the plate where we are left with Barret and Tifa needing to keep pushing Avalanche forward. There's a whole day of action and emotions there that are just unexplored simply because it isn't Cloud's perspective, and it's not like the original FFVII wasn't willing to leave Cloud's POV to give player's a moment of dread about his condition. Plus, for new players, it'll set up an expectation for later games when Cloud disappears from a fall (again) at the Northern Crater and when he is found he will be alright and probably in a light-hearted scenario with a new potential party member again only to have the rug pulled out from under them when they find the condition he's actually in.
Going back to your video, solid critique. I'm going to scout about your other videos to see if you offered up more ideas for how the game could have been improved or more detailed summaries on what aspects of the characterizations you liked because I'm curious on your perspective. If they aren't there, hey, more ideas for future videos.
Thanks for your comment! 'Tetsuya is back from lunch' haha, I like that. I take your point about Midgar - it just felt like their approach was OK we've decided we're staying in this location for part 1, how much stuff can we fill it with? How do we push this to 40 hours? Whereas the organic thing would be discovering in the writing process that you have this much story to tell to justify keeping the story there. Maybe that's not how it happened in the room, but it felt like that decision opened the door to padding because there was nothing of substance contributed. In an ideal world where the story blows you away then you don't feel that I guess.
I agree. I guess the implication that it's because of it being Midgar only and that's why it's bad just feels like an excuse the developers themselves would have made had the game flopped. "This external limitation ruined it, not me." Sort of thing.
I think the real issue is that SE devs seem to share a similar attitude to many AAA devs towards intimacy (emotional stakes) as a writing tool. IE: intimacy is good characterization but not good for plot. It's patently untrue but it's hard to make a boss fight out of out of emotional stakes. The content was there to make your 40+ hour game in Midgar. But they apparently didn't know how to bring it out without relying on the crutch of physically manifesting destiny via a fight on the moon I guess.
Due to how developing modern AAA assets for most locations and the content within all in one go was a big demanding and costly challenge for the production, I don't think the alternative of taking the game up to the Temple of the Ancients would've been feasible had they stuck with this style of presentation (personally, I wish they would've just gone with the more simplistic anime-ish art direction based on the OG art, which would then make an all-in-one game more realistically doable in a reasonable amount of time, as exemplified by Dragon Quest XI). I do agree that it should've ended somewhere outside of Midgar, though.
Alternatively, if they were adamant about having it just be Midgar no matter what, then the story would've been better off being frontloaded with the filler rather than having it spread about. This may sound like an even worse idea on paper, but given how there's absolutely no urgency after the first Bombing Run up to the next, they could've just expanded the story to have the first half dedicated to a lot of Avalanche-related scenarios rather than just having the one Jessie-centric chapter. That way, the story has a lot of room to explore many missions without feeling like they're getting in the way of important business, since they'd exist specifically to set up the next big mission.
As for Sephiroth, I imagine the reason as to why he doesn't just go back and off Cloud at an earlier point is because he needs him or something. Their clash at the ending has him wanting to have Cloud aid him in defying destiny or some nonsense, and goes on about how he isn't ready for something. I wouldn't be surprised if this is all leading up to a new climax where Sephiroth isn't the final enemy. Fans better strap themselves in for sheer insanity, because it's only the beginning of this clusterfuck. :P
Are you my spirit animal?
You're the only other person I've seen who'd like a remake that kept true to the original anime art.
I loved the gameplay and battle system of the remake. I do wish Midgar was more open world and that all of the sectors were explorable. Thank you also for not making me feel like I was crazy with the FF7 compilation, I was never a fan. Also, can someone distract Nomura with a separate project?
This is modern game design,
Death is sad, fans didn't want Aerith and Zach to be die, so we don't kill them.
Avalanche was a terrorist organization willing to sacrifice innocent people for the fate of the world, but that isn't sympathetic enough, so we have to make them more noble.
FF7 isn't FF7 without Sephiroth so we have to find a way to include him even if from a Narrative perspective its a terrible idea, because that's what fans want.
...
And worst of all, we don't want to "remake" an old game, we want to make a new game, but the fans want us to remake FF7 so we're going to do both, An alternate universe version if u will where were free to do what we want, but with enough FF7 left to be marketed as the "remake" fans want...
There was a meeting at some point in Square HQ where the plot was discussed and the writers said at this point Biggs Wedge and Jessie die and some corporate person said wait, they die... we're marketing this to kids, we cant have these characters die, you can't kill them. Rewrite this part so they don't die. But sir, their death are important, they give gravitas to the story, narrative weight... They make real to the characters in the story and to the audience the tragic consequences of Avalanche's "Crusade" This is a game, we don't want tragic consequences, we want it to be fun, we want fans to be happy, the good guys are heroic and altruistic and noble and only the bad guys can die...
And so we get remake... a farce... this is exactly why this game never should have been "remade"
If Kingdom Hearts has taught me anything about Nomura, it's that he's physically incapable of killing off characters.
Yes. Couldn't have said it better. Best review I've seen.
One issue I had was the battle system of this new ff7. I preferred the older one because they're was more depth and more variety. The limit breaks, the assortment of spells and combination. Yet this one felt like going through the motions. I liked ffxv yet this is ff7 and should've stayed the path instead of following the kingdom hearts / action rpg genre. Just two cents, yet it's still a ok remake. Your review is the best thus far. I wish more people could see your review
You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain.
Thanks for checking out the vid, really appreciate it! The original battle system is pretty special :)
Bravo!
I enjoyed this video. I agree with all of this. You brought up points that I didn't think of such as Barret not inviting Cloud the second time around.
The more I think about this mess of a story, the more frustrated I become. They had the blue prints and all they had to do was expand on it. No, they did this instead. The stakes are gone, there's no urgency, nothing but fan service and friendship is magic trope.
I'm not a die hard fan of FFVII but I like the original story so much. I hate that because of this remake, the important character moments, for example Cloud remembering who he is, are not going to be as impactful.
I don't understand how they are going to follow with the next part. Like why should I care about Cloud and crew when they defeated Destiny itself.
Man, this game could have been a masterpiece if the story did not tank as hard as it did. I really enjoy the game til that last part and hoo boy... I will see how the next part will be. If it is bad, I will drop this remake as fast as I can.
Many thanks for watching. Really enjoyed reading your thoughts. I think fans get the impression that we're sitting down with a pen and paper throughout the whole game looking for faults. It couldn't be further from the truth. For example, when they revealed Wedge was still alive, as much as it annoyed me, I put it aside and hoped they would pull everything together for a satisfying ending. I willed myself to like this game as much as I could. And obviously there was a lot I did like. But when it made mistakes, it made them in a big way.
@@orion8550 Agreed. I think they do think that way about people who appreciate the original story. It is a darn shame to be honest cause those who appreciate the original story were lead to believe that the remake would be faithful to the story. But, it did not turn out to be the case. True, I was upset Wedge not dying because his last words in the original game were on the fact Cloud remembered his name. I thought that was touching! I love a lot of things about the remake like the combat, chapter 9, the characterization of the characters. It was a great game to me but that story is really upsetting when you think about it.
Also, about two months ago, I was talking about how it would have been fitting if Roche was final villian. Like his obsession with Cloud would make him rise the ranks to become 1st class and we get more reasons to why Cloud could have possibly quit SOLIDER. Any aspect to keep the mystery of Cloud and Sephiroth. I thought the whispers were just the spirit of the Ancient. Like Aerith could see them and her touching people would make other see them. But my ideas went out the window when I saw that ending. I don't know. I just want something other than defying fate theme....
@@estania Yeah I thought the whispers were either the Ancients intervening or Sephiroth corrupting the life stream, which still feels messy but cohesive and interesting. But nope... I thought it was interesting to keep one of the Avalanche members alive, and having the most cartoony one too. That way you could be reminded of the loss of Jessie and Biggs when, idk, you run into Wedge at Cosmo Canyon.
@@bzdjorde I agree! I thought the whispers were the ancients as well. I thought they figure out Sephiroth's plan and they contacted Aerith to be their messenger to bring the party together to stop him or something along those sorts. That way the original story is intact but they add some more detail in the story to make more flesh out.
I get what you are saying about Wedge. That could work as well! But nope, we got this instead. I really don't know how they are going to continue to follow the original story after ending part 1 on such a big note like that. Like huh?! They defeated destiny itself so why should I care?! They are like over powered for no apparent reason at this point?! I wish someone had review this before they release this game. But what do I know, I'm just some random girl!
Disagree, barret not hiring cloud again was exactly the reason why we as the player could not go down the pinball elevator this time in remake, they wanted cloud to join on his own by kicking him out first and then playfully teasing him to join by throwing a party and he can only join if we wants to be with avalanche again
I think this is a superb review, well-balanced, well-written, and hits all the right notes. But as someone who quite likes Crisis Core - though god, it has issues - I can say that I did. Not. Want. Zack to be brought back.
One of the best things about Crisis Core is that it has the courage to kill off its protagonist. Zack's death is meaningful because it's purely personal - it's a game which has heroism as a core theme but only Zack achieves this by just a very simple act of loyalty, out in the middle of the Midgar wasteland, with no-one to appreciate that sacrifice other than Cloud himself - who is of course emotionally devestated by it.
IMO, it's more emotionally impacting than Aerith's death in the original game. (At least, it was for me)
The fact that the devs have brought him back in the Remake is just a sign of their bad taste and inability to appreciate a good story, not ours.
And you know what that means - yup, Aerith is going to live in the Remake. In fact, everyone is going to live. Nobody ever dies. Ever.
We can change things. Make it right! (The Remake telegraphs its intentions in a big way IMO, but this line from Aerith above all else is crystal clear on the point. They may pull back from that in response to how the first part was recieved, but as is, Remake part one is full steam ahead to fanfic fix-it land)
The devs have heard all those regrets over Zack and Aerith's deaths, and they are going to take them entirely, one hundred percent literally.
I think Remake has some good points, some of which you outlined, but in story terms they have utterly ruined the inheritance of the original game and, yes, even Crisis Core, in favour of misguided fanservice and empty spectacle and pomposity.
I call the whispers the "ballsacks/scrotums of fate" that's what they look like. Easily the worst inclusion. Also Sephi is like join me cloud which cloud denies but then totally kills fate for sephi which you'd think would be playing into sephi's new plan.
Excellent and well-made review. This video was recommended by someone on Reddit when I posted my own video that's on my channel, and I'm glad it was recommended. I completely agree with your point about characters being overpowered; it's hard to really tell what conflicts do, and don't, prove challenging for them considering the feats we've witnessed (especially in the ending lol). I also appreciate you mentioning how Avalanche didn't cause the destruction of the Sector 1 Mako Reactor. You're the only other reviewer that I've seen address that fact. I also love the discussion of the ending and how the characters no longer act like themselves. Really, really great review. Keep it up.
Thanks for the comment! Really appreciate you taking the time to watch. That's awesome that someone shared it! I'll check out your channel.
Was excited to finally be able to play the game after it recently came to PC but was ultimately disappointed. It has good moments, but the convoluted plot and padded storyline completely sucked the fun out of it. So cathartic to see my gripes with the game being articulated so well. Great video!
You did a great job of putting words to a lot of my thoughts and feelings towards FF7 and Advent Children. I always hated the way that they've been to do all of those superhero acrobatics ever since AA, but I've almost gotten so used to seeing it that I've stopped putting words to my disapproval.
I've also been talking about the lack of death in the remake as well. I thought they were building up Avalanche for a big gut punch, but nope. And it's super confusing to me how this isn't a common feeling towards the remake, but you're right, from what I've seen, most people like it... it's confusing as hell to me.
Excellent review!
Thanks very much! :)
Excellent review. I agree on your parts that explain the good. As for the bad and ugly are thought provoking. As a casual player I am in for the ride and enjoy but now after playing it, I wonder about some of the questions you posed. Now I’m curious about what episode 2 will give. The whispers were the strange addition to this game that got me scratching my head and then it goes into the Destiny fight which for some reason reminded me of FF13 and Lightning’s fight with God...
just found your content and enjoying it! I also have mixed feelings about the remake.
i hate the "padding" as well, the upper plate is a barren wasteland without even a single treasure or NPC, and this is the supposed reason we can't fit everything into one game is junk content that adds nothing except our "hero" stealing from a sick person. SMH
the Barret getting stabbed scene was absolutely ludicrous, apparently our characters have plot armor.
Absu wiped me out because I couldn't control where my party member stood and you have to fight him twice! I hate AI controlled party member with a passion.
the end game bosses were a joke i beat on my first try. now I've already fought the big bad easily & have nothing to look forward to
this game has ZERO replay value, I've replayed the original like 20 times, having fun saving Aerith with the Yuffie glitch and playing New Threat 2.0 with updated graphics & content, always finding something new. FF7 Remake didn't deliver what I wanted as a fan, except with the voice acting and character models. I'm on the fence about playing Rebirth...
it's a shame I can only give you one like for this video. I'm with you with this critique word for word.
Those ghosts are a trash concept on their own...
Let alone the fact they are a big delibrate planned out fuck you to thousands of fans who helped make square what they are in the 90s.
Theyre literally telling me they dont give af about me and didnt make this game for me.
They should've expanded on the original story instead of adding new subplots that don't naturally blend in with the story like the R.E Remakes did.
The purpose of a Remake isn't to give a fresh experience with the story. In this games case People mainly just wanted modernized graphics and maybe add on to what was already there.
I agree with just about everything you said except for the filler content. I really didn't mind them expanding on Midgar at all in the remake. Maybe it's because I found the combat system fun and enjoyed all the world building.
I loved the remake, but the whisperers and fates were just bad writing.
I'm okay with them changing the plot some in the remake, but the whisperers and having everyone get resurrected doesn't work with the overall theme.
Also about Roche, love em or hate em... was so random and pointless it would have been better if after we met in chapter 4 he becomes a souped up version as the final boss of part 1 due to hojos experiments/mako soldiers. Maybe seeing him go mad for power as he is going through the degradation process or your idea in the video instead of random fate timeline shit at the end. That would be new and interesting without jumping the shark and shooting the FF vii plot in the face
Really like this idea of Roche being affected by Hojo's experiments/mako poisoning - would lay the groundwork for Cloud's story nicely too. And explores the whole lab experiments from a human angle, without dragging us through a lengthy filler lab section where we fight all of Hojo's freaks.
Did you feel that Chadley's character was utterly ridiculous and had no place in the game? Come on, Hojo's android betraying him? How does that even work. He must have been some crappy scientist to allow a lame ass kid robot to bypass his orders and help the enemy instead.
And the summons. I think this was a great missed opportunity. Didn't you have a problem about how we get them? Wth, virtual simulation? Imagine if they added just one large cavern in scrap boulevard as part of a side quest after you kill wrath hound. And you find ifrit there and fight him to obtain the ifrit materia. Imagine if in chapter 6 at the sun lamps area there's an extra chamber where you encounter shiva. How about an additional area in the sewers with unstable currents where they encounter Leviathan? They could have added extra story like 1. These materia are a result of concentrated mako (since midgar has so many reactors it makes sense). Or 2. They are abandoned shinra experiments left to cascade uncontrollably hence why those areas are relatively abandoned and left to rot.
They could have easily done this, since there were already boss battles for all the summons. Just add an extra large cavern fot the fight. Don't you think it would have so much more satisfying?
And Chadley's Intel missions could still exist. But don't you think it would make far more sense if Chadley was part of avalanche rather than a Shinra intern? Since they've already expanded Avalanche as a full scale organization in this remake, it would make a lot more sense!
Definitely agree with your points. Makes perfect sense. Chadley is another example of how things don't make sense at character level. How would a character like Chadley exist and be given free rein under the eyes of a control freak such as Hojo? I think, much like FF13 which has the floating item dispensers, they just used Chadley as a materia dispenser, so they didn't have to build scenarios around obtaining the summons. As you say, they could have made that part way more exciting. The closest thing to that feeling was finding the Choco Mog summon in the fan. Nice ideas.
I just don't even wanna play it and I got it for free😢 the writing and story are just too watered down yet needlessly convoluted and it feels like a complete cash grab. In all honesty it feels like a bit of a slap in the face.
100 percent agree! to us real fans who like good storytelling it's a sad day realizing all they did to the plotline, even if the characters personalties are on point and it looks great, this is not FF vii and a bunch of fake fans are defending it now 😭 rip to the dreams of a FF vii remake I guess... I'm not going to keep buying the parts. I don't want to fund square to keep shitting on the story I respect so much. Hopefully they at least remaster the original with updated character models and translation like FF 8-10. As much as I love FF vii those Lego models are tough to go back to
Sadly it seems like around 70 % of the fans thought that the ending was great to perfect. Around the same amount love the new direction overall. The "real fans" term should be distanced as it more or less means that someone liked the whisperers and the subversion. I passionately hate the whisperers but even if I wish for something else the damage is somewhat already done as they cannot really dig themselves out without the "it was only a dream" route. I wish that the next games will be more FF VII and less stupid shit but it would not make sense with themes and execution of the OG. This time around the whole of the story is about if they managed to actually avoid fate or not if they go back to the OG themes the first installment just had the stupidest padding imaginable.
@@vincentgraymore indeed what's done is done, and I can't help if people love the rather pointless mystery box story rather than an actual remake of a beloved story, but all I know is that the Dragonball z/13-2 ending and any of the badly written new "improvements" checked me out of the story and I won't be buying the next parts. I'm just curious for those fans of the ending will viir story last and be impactful after all the subversion and hype wears off in a couple years? Will the plot itself be remembered as legendary like the og I honestly don't think so... no one can tell me they actually felt something from this game compared to the og's masterful story telling. sorry square but the nonsense story telling is played out now especially with KH as well. Personally I want more simple but heartfelt stories again like FF 1-10 KH 1-2. So here's to FF xvi hopefully getting the series back on track but I don't care for FF vii nomuras wild ride edition sorry I wish I could get hype and excited but I just can't I just want good stories again from square it's that simple
@@Nicholi273 Sadly the remake will most likely be the benchmark now to forever (or next remake-remake). After the next installments have been released the remake will be "complete" and people will probably go to that first (just like what a remake is actually supposed to be, a retelling captured with modern technology). OG lacks voice, has 3d graphics that most young people will never tolerate, and combat that modern and probably future standard will never be favored again and most fans of FF seem to want FF VII remakes combat to be standard for FF series. Which is funny because fans are naive enough to think that square will settle on a battle system, not even considering that square will most likely change the combat somewhat each installment in the FF VII remake (Only FF XIII-2 had similar combat of the basically all sequels, even DLCs to XV has different combat styles). Everyone is willing to change the story just like people that want to have a "new" retelling of Shakespeare. However, I have yet to see another retelling of a story that has something like the whisperers but perhaps not really strange for a sequel. People do not consider messing with the fabric of space and time to be anything noteworthy anymore and are willing to just accept stuff like that retconned into a world after 6 installments of different kinds of media actively working avoiding such. There are people that "felt like they did all those years ago" again but at the same time say it is not because of nostalgia and that it would be boring to play the OG... they sacrifice their beloved story just to get new content that will not be new in a few years. And many of these people are actually major FF VII fans (although probably ones that write fanfiction of Aerith surviving).
I have no doubt that the OG will be relegated as what is uttered in remake, a bad outcome, and every new person that will experience the world of FF VII through the lens of the remake will consider whisperers and whatnot as a retcon at best but probably natural occurrence. Questions like "so this is what the whisperers wanted" and "where is sephiroth" will be on the mind if anyone plays the OG. In my opinion, a remake can have rather large changes but not these kinds to the story. The gameplay is one thing but this is another story as the theme and meaning are different but I do not think that any of the "named" staff even thinks so (they said that despite knowing that FF VII is like a holy cow to some people they have faith in themselves to add changes because they know what they are doing and the world of FF VII). The fan wiki is already split with "Original continuity" and "Remake continuity" (and character pictures are from the remake now). I guess that it would be unavoidable to have such categories but when I see them I just ask myself why they would strive to do a remake with as many changes as they could get away with rather than being similar. Then again, most fans wanted it so...
Regarding FF XVI if it does not have a party then I am out. The developer of dragons dogmas combat is supposed to work on FF XVI but that game has "pawns" as allies and I do not want something like that in a FF series. That belongs in Disgaea (which still has main characters in combat) or other RPGs. Anyway. Not gonna nag you with more text. Take care and let's just hope that whatever FF VII series become it can stay a fond memory at least.
Your content is *chef's kiss*, wish I'd found it sooner!
Thank you very much! :) Hugely appreciated!
My thoughts exactly. Thank you for putting my feelings into better words than I ever could.
Did you share your review in the ffvii or the ffviiremake subreddit? If not, it could be interesting to do so.
I'd like to see the reactions!
Thanks for watching!! I haven't shared it on Reddit. I haven't had much luck sharing content in the past since it's my own stuff i'm sharing lol Got removed. Maybe it's worth a go.
@@orion8550
Can I have permission to share it there?
@@89RedXIII More than welcome to! Many Thanks!
@@89RedXIII did you post it?
@@ItsSVO
I did a long time ago, I'm not sure I got many responses though
Sorry that I’ve spammed your inbox with so many comments; I just found your channel.
But you want to know why the Whispers suck? It wasn’t even their existence (trust me, that is _one_ of their issues). But it’s how jarring the final battles that are in chapter 18. They may be active throughout the story, but it’s the sudden dump-truck of the final moments that is the real offender. They could have been gradually revealed/realized in part 2 and, though that would have been an issue in of itself, it could have made more sense than the sudden disc 3-esq battle and what it represented. It was a double slap in the face: 1) the Whispers even exist, and 2) the jarring way you just fight and defeat them as well as Sephiroth. It’s so sloppy!
Great comment/point, and I really appreciate the comments you've left. Thank you! Agreed for sure - strange choices aside by SE, the way things play out is incredibly sloppy. You could at least try to appreciate the narrative from a storytelling standpoint if it was told in a coherent way.
I feel like these whispers are Nomura and the asshole new players who force it to change the storyline
Here from TBYS.
See this here? This is why I don't want a Chrono Trigger remake. I might be interested in a sequel but not a remake. It's pretty sad that it's hard to recommend ffvii to new players because of dated graphics and game mechanics but I really will always love it. I enjoy remake and I'm definitely on board for more but I gotta agree that it's no replacement. I find the tone and pacing suffered the most.
Maybe one day, someone will mod the crap out of this game, take out the trash and make it what it should have been.
Finally the video i was looking for XD
Thanks for watching. I’ve got a lot more where that came from lol
I am pissed becasue I felt mislead. They should have named it FF7 reboot or reimagined instead of remake. I am officially done with anything Square-Enix.
To the Remake fanboys, it’s all about themes over substance. Heaven forbid anyone dare to dislike ham-fisted meta commentary in their new favourite Kingdom Hearts game.
The error was to expect Yoshinori Kitase to "save" FFVIIR, as he was also the "mastermind" behind Final Fantasy VIII. FFII and FFVIII were what Final Fantasy looked like when not under Sakaguchi's watchful eye.
VIII was a brilliant game. What?
@@ItsSVO It sure was brilliant, if you're into completely nonsensical plots.
@@ChaosAngelZero what was nonsensical about it? That wasn’t my experience with VIII at all. Perhaps you misunderstood it.
@ItsSVO The plot is metaphysical time travel nonsense to the point that people don't know what's going on at the end of the game and theorize that Squall might be dead or something (and that's precisely what they're doing again with the FFVII sequel/remake cash grab), and the battle mechanics are so bad that people either don't understand them or quickly realize how to instantly break them and make almost the entire game a breeze.
@@ChaosAngelZero just because some people with shite comprehension didn’t understand the plot doesn’t mean it’s nonsensical, it means those people did not understand it. The squalls dead theory was and is nonsensical and created by the same idiots I was referring to before.
Honestly, I've never believed it was time travel. The planet's going nuts, and that's probably because Aerith and Sephiroth are screwing with its memories. When I stopped viewing FF7R as a time travel story and started viewing it as a planetary therapy session, it started making more sense.
It's memories? What? That's even more confusing.
@@billjacobs521 To an inhabitant of a memory, someone with knowledge of that memory would appear to be a time traveler. It’s not so outlandish when we consider a few things.
1. The planet is a character
2. The nature of Materia
3. Memory is a key theme of FF7
4. Memory is a key theme in the marketing materials of the remake games.
To elaborate more on 2: Materia is the crystalline knowledge of the ancients. What is knowledge if not another name for recalled memory?
One of the main reasons I’m inclined to believe that it isn’t time travel is because of the sheer malleability of events that we are witnessing. Details shift, characters are added and removed, even the chronology of events shuffles. Kind of similar to the unreliable nature of memory itself. It’s possible to convince a person that something happened in their past and watch in real time as they develop symptoms in the present (that’s what I believe Sephiroth’s plan is, by the way).
And then there are the small details that add up. How did the ghosts in the train yard know about Marlene? Why does the same sound effect play when Aerith and Sephiroth use their powers to influence people? Why is the preservation of canon important enough to be a part of the story?
When I think about these things, there’s only one thing that makes sense: we are viewing the memory of the planet - a frail and broken thing. Granted, there are a few elements of the leap in logic that I didn’t cover (primarily because I’m typing this on a phone).
Also, if the planet had localized time powers, Meteor wouldn’t be a threat.
all they needed to do for a solid ending would have been to move the Jenova fight to after motorball. The ghosts could have been a new plot point and further exspansion on Weapons lore and the planet being sentient instead of lazy badly implemented timeline janitor BS. Those two things and reducing Sephiroth appearences would have made this experience a million times better.
Shinra blowing up the reactor was stupid though. Im even okay with some of the Team surviving the plate drop, but again this was stupid. From on high it's a wasteland. On the ground the roads have already been snow shoveled and everyones just drinking coco.
I couldn’t agree more with what you said, but at the same time I am desperate to see these characters continue to interact and have more details added to their individual lores. The 3rd game could be Cloud wakes up at the station by Tifa and it was all a dream at the end. I would still be happy for the chance play with these characters again.
This is the difference between people I guess. Personally I love the story of FF7 and that’s what shapes the characters we know and love. If that story is no longer the same then neither are the characters truly. I always try and imagine another franchise doing what SE did with remake. Imagine a game of thrones with fate and a separate timeline where Ned stark lives. It changes the whole dynamic of the story, means robb doesn’t rally the north against the Lannister’s etc. there’s a massive ripple effect that time travel and alternative timelines cause when they’re present in story, especially when the story they’re in was never supposed to.
You do you man, but this is the kind of mentality that basically fuels guys like Nomura--you're "desperate" for whatever they have to offer, so you lap it up. It's why FF as a whole has gone off the rails.
@@billjacobs521 I’m gonna start thinking your out to contradict every post I’ve made about FF VII. Yeah, I admit that I’m desperate for any FFVII content. But it’s my money, so I choose to keep buying new stuff (good, bad, or silly). And you…you always have the original to go back to, so enjoy the new pc mods and leave us the crazy Nomura stuff to the rest of us
I just started a new game on the original because yeah it’s way better
Maybe from this point onward FF7R will remain consistent with the original game's story, and the whispers were just a needlessly elaborate setup for an alternate timeline Zack spinoff title to be released independently. Or maybe FF7R will ultimately have multiple routes, with the original's plot being one of several possible outcomes. ...Or maybe that's a little too ambitious. The fact that they've stated that from here on out they won't be deviating too much from the original makes you wonder, though, what the point of the whispers was beyond the cheeky metacommentary.
I was going to do a video like this… but you echo my feelings so well I am just going to share your video. Can you do one on how well this game actually sold too? Looking at the numbers I have I can’t say it bombed, but I can’t say it’s a runaway hit either, and I’d like your perspective.
Thanks for checking out the video, Daniel! And cheers for the suggestion. Speaking of sales, I'll be very interested how sales are on Remake Part 2 because SE captured a lot of original FF7 fans with this game. I know a few friends in particular who hadn't thought about FF in 20 years after beating FF7 and came back for Remake. But by the game's ending, they didn't have a clue what was going on. They didn't understand who Zack was, what the whispers were, etc. Plus they were frustrated that the game was only Midgar and missing some of their favourite characters. So they've essentially checked out now. Maybe all the new fans will fill the void, but who knows.
What makes a game or movie unenjoyable is this guy.
21:41 I love the new theories and stuff...but it's clear, the more questions we ask, the more a flawed plot seems to be on the horizon...but this game was very good, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
If u want to make it Midgar only, have Roche be the final boss with Motor Ball and then finish with the Kalm memory.
Zack should’ve not been in this game. I don’t know why people don’t realize that Crisis Core was a cash grab with a ham story. Aerith and Cloud were a relationship more because of Cloud’s personality shining through his Zack confidence. “I want to meet… you” said Aerith on the gondola. This idea that Zack and Aerith were fated to be together is so stupid and is shallow story telling.
This game was the biggest disappointment. It was like somebody wished for a FF7 remake on a monkey’s paw
Kind of a random critique but it’s wild how Sephiroth in particular has been mischaracterized. Something that stood out to me is in Remake, Sephiroth constantly speaks in eloquent riddles that make little sense, and he seems to take pleasure in the confusion he’s sowing..
But in the original (according to translations) Sephiroth spoke pretty casually! He could be pretty straightforward, and if something he said didn’t make sense, it was clearly because Sephiroth was *batshit insane* and didn’t care if anyone understood. Remake takes away this aspect of his character that made him (in my opinion) seem volatile and unhinged.
Because sephiroth became a tropey mustache twirling villain in advent children and has remained so since. In the OG he is a grey character in many respects and is sympathetic to a degree once we hear more of his backstory. While his actions aren’t justifiable, his mental break that leads him there is at least understandable.
SE took this and then turned him into every anime villain ever, spewing monologues and weirdly obsessed with cloud when in the OG it was actually the opposite, sephiroth didn’t really acknowledge cloud at all.
Plus alot of people, including Nomura and Nojima apparently, forgot or never realized that Sephiroth is barely in the "present" of FF7--we're chasing Jenova the whole game. After Nibelheim, Seph gets to the North Crater and that's the only place he ever is. Jenova is characterized clearly as a shape-shifter, as someone who plays off people's memories, who gets close and then strikes, which is how she destroyed the entire race of the Cetra--that's who we're dealing with, and all of her behavior is that of the manipulator (although she might legitimately have not known who Cloud was at first). So Sephiroth wasn't even the one fucking with Cloud, yet those two thing he is OBSESSED with Cloud (Nomura even said, way back when FF7 was new, that they were "rivals", that's how disconnected from reality Nomura is).
Square Enix took FF7R down the dark path Marvel took MCU after Endgame, no stakes, multiverse, nobody is really dead, all flash no substance, all the edges sanded down ... etc .. and just like the MCU, they will feel the heft of that awful decision soon enough.
great review...spot on with your points....also with remake making me play the og
Thanks very much for watching!
Nice critique. Working on one as well, and all my references pretty much support your overall conclusions. Although, i felt like you were a bit too charitable with the writing. Up to now, i found that every single major plot point they changed from the original is significantly flawed in some way, and that the whispers are but the tip of the iceberg in this massive mess of a script.
Thanks for that. I'll keep a look out for yours when it drops. I may well have been - there was quite a bit more that was irritating me throughout the game that I sort of let slide for what I felt was the 'bigger picture' stuff.
I can't understand why red13 is not playable character?this piss me off was my favorite character.🃏
I agree. In fact the only way ff7r makes any sense, is if the immediate scene in ff7r2 is cloud waking up after mako poisoning and the entire e ents of ff7r1 was a battle in his own mind.
This game is aging terribly.
what makes you say that?
This review is criminally under-watched...
Thank you for watching!
A little late to the party here. I stumbled upon this video because of my big disappointment with rebirth, while also experiencing a lot of toxic bashing from FF7 fans because I just think Rebirth was a disappointment (lore wise especially). I've been a long time fan of FF7 and I just wanted a civil and intellectual discussion of rebirth and wanted to voice out my thoughts, but what happened was just toxicity from other fans. I think I was fine with Remake (except the ending), but Rebirth is a whole different story. While this might not be the appropriate video to voice out my opinions, I was wondering if you have a rebirth critique video?
Thanks very much for the comment! I'm working on a Rebirth video at the moment. If you're looking for a community where you can openly discuss all things FF7 (good and bad), please have a look at my latest community post 👍
@@orion8550 thanks! I am looking forward to a community wherein I can voice out my grievances about both remake and rebirth. Coz I tried voicing out in FF VII groups but I only got toxic replies from fans of the remake.
I actually enjoy FF7R, but I thought these were extremely valid, level headed critiques. I guess my belief is that we'll always have the original game and I don't think any remake could ever truly replace it. I find FF7R to be a fun, albeit self indulgent companion piece. But as someone whose favorite game is FF7, I totally understand (and agree with) many of people's gripes.
I agree with so much you said in the video, padding is awful, alternative timelines, and whisper ghosts really fucked up a lot, but rebirth has been great so far and fixed lots of gameplay issues.
Fantastic bit of analysis
Thanks for watching! Really appreciate it.
Very good video. Any decent writer could have done a better job than Nomura did. Most people are blinded by the good graphics and the stylish combat. For me the game was the biggest disappointment of 2020, well maybe except for that covid thing going on. Your points about the story made me think and I really don't see how they can proceed from here. They have written themself into a corner and I don't think that they will recover from it. Right now it isn't obvious for a lot of people yet, but I assume things will get way more crazy. GOT level of crazy.
Well, according to game awards 4 people were credited with story and while Nomura wasn't on the list it is hard to not see him having a hand in this. What is strange is that a remake has that many writers. I do realize that they needed to flesh out dialogue and such but 4 writers for that? It is a warning sign for any story. Anyway, not going different enough makes the themes and ending statement more or less more "lies/halftruths" and going similar will just upset those that wanted the difference, even if they claim this after the fact rather than wanted it before release. I seldom see a fan that realize that they are on the next list of fans to disappoint, even if they are the ones thinking Zack must die or Zack must survive. "Cautiously optimistic" is the description I get and when speaking to these people they always speak of fan theories or have their own version of how SE "will" handle things. Some people also dismiss the ending or even the whole part with the whisperers as Clouds delusions and everyone thinks that SE will stay away from introducing something new stupid, which I do not understand since we did get something new stupid in the first part that was crazy and there is nothing to stop these developers that value plot subversion in a remake from doing it again.
When the next parts come things cannot stay in "possibilities" and since this first part has created large camps regarding most things, perhaps the largest Aeriths death/non-death, it is impossible to please everyone. I am still shocked when I see people saying they want Tifa to die instead or even worse, Cloud. I also think people are blinded by what in their eyes are nostalgia (seeing the characters again) and spectacle (the combat do look really great and feels good to play). People expect radical changes but does not think they want radical changes (that break FF VII), and they also want changes but only changes that please themselves and very few people even consider how this remake is objectively strange for new people. I get that it is most likely just a sequel created by time meddling, but I do not know if SE themselves think it actually is. In their mind it might just be a remake and even if they did make this as a sequel then I am sure they just thought it's clever to make a remake and sequel even though that combo is not really valid.
I just wanted to say that I agree with this being the biggest disappointment of 2020, perhaps even a decade. Covid-19 does not affect me much so FF VII remake was more important to me.
@@vincentgraymore While there are 4 writers credited, Kitase said in an interview from 17.04.20 with Frontline that "Overall direction and concept, story and worldbuilding was left to Nomura". So he made the final decisions. In a later interview from 24.05.20 with Pushsquare it was suddenly Kitase that wanted to more changes with Nomura and Hamaguchi being the Hero's that "Kept the beloved aspects as much as possible". Given the way the story turned out, I also find it hard to see Nomura not having a hand in this. I won't hold my breath for part 2, but given how much FF7 means to me I will probably still be disappointed if they do something stupid with it.
The problem with all the camps that were created is: There already was a magnificent story.
As sad as Aerith's death made me, it was important to happen for Cloud to grow as a character. Taking this away, or even worse, making him a tragic hero that has to sacrifice himself would have nothing to do with what the original intended. The original was about a boy, that wanted to become a Soldier to impress the girl he liked. A boy that first had to be protected by Zack and later by Aerith until he found the strengh to stand on his own and make peace with a past, where he was not able to protect anyone. Sephiroth marked the final adversary for this journey and now that he is already beaten, I have to ask myself...what now? What motivation does Cloud have now? The entire plot of the original would not make sense anymore, so they have to come up with something new. The FF7: Remake has so much potential and I fear it will be wasted.
@@maik7853 I also read those statements, and they are the seeds of confusion among the fans but who can blame them. Not everyone follows interviews etc, and it should by no means be necessary and might in the end tell us nothing more than fluff. Seeking someone to blame is not really productive either. All in all it is a group effort, but I think that officially we can only blame those that are credited for whatever they wanted to be credited for. This also means that Nomura as director still carry the most responsibility and perhaps then Kitase as he is a producer (then again normally here in the west at least we do put blame on directors and not producers).
In my opinion the remake cannot realign and has already destroyed itself from being a remake by flash forwards (that might not happen) with comments of disdain towards the outcome of the OG, spoiling important things (like Cloud killed Sephiroth and not being in soldier) and a world mechanic that makes Gaia more or less look like an evil tyrant that just uses everything as its pawns. It also ripples back into the OG as a sequel that makes me ask myself a lot of stupid questions I never wanted nor did ask in the past about events and how/why things unfold. The fact that people want things even more complicated (like whisperers being jenovaroth and an even more convoluted story that lies and twists constantly) just makes the whole thing worse from the OG perspective. With risk of upsetting any and every fan, the OG to me is worse because of the remake, which is something I never thought would happen.
I also think that they should just do their new stuff and please the masses as it seems like most people simply want this "new". Remove all classic scenes and craft new instead of mixing it all into a strange warped version of FF VII that refuse to toss aside the old yet cannot walk on its own. After all it is already warped/twisted as it leaves us with a legacy of change from FF VII OG and the praise of being "ballsy" is not by being more FF VII. To me the "potential" of this remake project is purely on being a game now, the story can only go worse as I do not see any solution that makes me like the world of FF VII more than less now. This part 1 makes me want a closer 1:1 continuation but that would just be stupid writing. Which is a shame because I loved much of the remake and in general I love the world and Cloud but seeing time ghosts and developers clear drive to use their work for something new rather than wanting to show new people why it was great to begin with makes me physically ill (which is only worsen by most fan saying that this game is better, is the real story and makes FF VII brand as a whole better and people saying that there is so much love poured into the game by the developers, which I do not doubt, but it is also the wrong kind of love according to me). The next game can be a cool story and good game, but I already hate it because of part 1 and that taints my ability to accept whatever they do.
1. I agree with every complaint he has.
2. I'd like to add my own.... why is there sunlight in the slums? The slums are supposed to be gritty and crime infested. By the time you get to Aeriths house, I'm wondering why there aren't more flower's. In the original, it was beautiful the way her house was the only place to have sunlight shine through. My second complaint is why does Jesse flirt with cloud? Now we have every female protagonist in love with the main character.... who is he James Bond? Completely unnecessary and misogynistic. You took a smart, female character who was integral to the group and turned her into some hyper sexed up distraction. What did it add to her character or the story?
Thanks for commenting! Good points. I guess they took those small moments of Jessie admiring Cloud in the original and dialed it all the way the hell up. Everything has to be right on the nose in SE's writing. If you're interested, please check out my critique of Intermission DLC, where I touch on the sunlight aspect too ruclips.net/video/uP_YxSDNSAE/видео.html
Yep, just started the video, but it's always been my theory that the graphical limitations, plus Hironobu Sakaguchi's presence, is what made the PSX trilogy so different from the current direction of the series. You can't show the characters doing over the top acting when the characters expressivity is so limited.
I agree with all your points. but I think it's better to take this as a sequel instead, which is in fact kinda the case. If we consider the game like a nice return to this world and not waiting to have a blast like the first one. It's fine by me. When I think about it, I had a great time finishing it, one of my best games of those last years. Even that I hated some parts of it and some details really pissed me off (wtf some music... wtf the controls and those time where you have to pass some small passage where cloud walk so slowly, wtf some random sidequest mobs being stronger than bosses and so on...).
I think the "good" part you greatly describe is more than enough to be able to appreciate the game. And we should not overthink it and not focus too much on the bad parts.
That said, I kinda like the haunted train/hangar parts(remind me a bit of ff6). Liked the music and ambiance there!! And l like the sewer part too for the same reason!
Thanks for checking out the vid and sharing your thoughts! I hear you. There was a lot I liked about it, and I have a lot of good memories around playing this game - can't believe it's almost been a year - feeling a little nostalgic. For me, the fact that the game hit some great notes made the bad notes (weird story choices especially) harder to take. A sense of frustration like...damn SE you had it right there at times...
*googles ‘man with spiky black hair’*
Oh my God! It’s Vegeta from Dragonball Z!
19:49 Blair witch victim
Great video 👍
Or instead of just taking us out of the city hell expand more on Midgar give us other sectors to explore give us more character moments as avalanche goes through the rest of the reactors you could tell 3 games worth of a story in midgar hell let us explore the high ways but no they wasted that potential there was so much lore and things to explore just in midgar.
I feel like I, a random asshole on the internet, could have done a better job making the Midgar section fill a game. What if getting back from the first reactor bombing was, you know, hard? What if you had to go underground locally, duck from safe house to safe house, avoid sweeping patrols, all while hearing and seeing the destruction you caused, people cursing the terrorists that killed their family members working in the reactor? You know, not crap like powering up an elevator, actual story content. Maybe have the Turks be more present, hunting you down like the FBI stand-ins they are. Maybe put as much work into Biggs and Wedge as they did Jessi (and, you know, make Jessi actually consistent between her backstory and current characterization). The plate dropping probably WOULD have been more impactful if we knew the people of the slums more, and they actually freaking died. Also, it would have been cool to be OUT of the slums more; there's a gigantic city on top of the plate too, give us some missions up there, and I don't mean eating pizza. I realize I'm just spitting out ideas, but hell, alot of the padding sections were also just random-ass ideas that they didn't develop at all from a writing perspective.
Tetsuya Nomuron can fuck up a cup of coffee. Its obvious Sakaguchi kept him on a leash when developing the original masterpiece.
We've went from "unreliable narrator" (OG FF7) to "unreliable developers" (remake). In all seriousness, this is one of the most bizarre things, it's like reading interviews and newly released materials for new AAA games (Cyberpunk 2077, FF7 Remake, etc.) will just only set us up for disappointment and confusion, as the readers and audience question which bits and pieces are the truth, and which ones are just flat out lies. The only thing Nomura has definitely not lied about in one of his interviews is that Remake does not replace the original game.
Ah well, I can't lie and say I'm done with Square Enix, because I'm giving them one more shot with XVI after how fun XIV 2.0 is (not to mention how complete an experience the base game is, with actual expansions that add so much new content), and how blunt and serious of a producer/director Naoki Yoshida is from his interviews and commentary on how screwed up the video game industry is right now. Just the right amount of cynicism to keep standards high and even going as far to say to not release any new information to avoid frustration and disappointment like what we've seen with new AAA games released as of late. Good on YoshiP for learning from Nomura and Kitase outright lying to the public about much of this project.
Epic comment. Yoshida is the man who has me intrigued about 16. Love what he did with 14.
@@orion8550 He's definitely Square Enix's final lifeline, especially since his team, under his leadership, saved the company from utter collapse after being in the red during the 2013 fiscal year, after all the money SE sank into this 2.0 overhaul development pipeline. He definitely earned his chance to right the wrongs brought about by 15+ years of turmoil and stagnation from the old guard (whether it's Hiromichi Tanaka's ilk or Nomura/Kitase's ilk within the company).
Couldn’t agree more. God forbid you make any of these points on any SE social media posts related to FFVIIR and you’ll get swarmed by an army of soy induced weebs and fanboys. I’m glad people are calling it out and cutting through the paid positive reviews and nonsense. Well done
No one seems to talk about the fact that Roach kinda looks like a younger Angeal with different hair style and color.
A new Angeal copy perhaps? Altered by Hojo? Would be an interesting spin on the sequal story.
Thank you. Advent children straight sucked
It took me half of the game to really appreciate the combat system. The story is great but the level designs needs improvement. Overall, a truly awesome game. Above GOT but below TLOU2 and Nioh2 for 2020 games.
Honestly, I think you're too nice to the game. The characterization still feels all off to me, like over simplified and turned up to 11 (except Tifa), and alot of music remixes are overdone, drowning out the main melody with excessive backing instruments. Which go together well, I suppose; no damn subtlety to ANYTHING in this game. Well, except when they confuse "subtle" with "vague and cryptic BS." The voice acting also seems too on-the-nose; Barret is a charismatic and dedicated leader, so they made him a showboating, theatrical blowhard. Western gamers often complain that JRPGs are too ridiculously over-the-top and this team seems determined to prove them right.
And honestly, if they wanted to change the story...just change the story. The stupid fate ghosts just weren't necessary. I get that remakes change things--it's usually a downgrade, but I could far more easily tolerate simply changing it than trying to include metaphysical justification for it. Because all that really does, besides being distracting in and of itself, is draw attention to the changes. It makes Nomura and Nojima out to be spiteful, trying to rub it in the fans' faces that they can do anything they want, which ultimately makes them seem cowardly and lacking in confidence--they can't just give us their version of the story and stand by it, they have to include all this pretentious BS to make themselves seem so smart (I still put most of the blame on Nomura because this is exactly the kind of thing he loves).
They could've ended part 1 with Rufus Shinra and the turks.