Why Ned Stark Was Not A Good Hand of the King 😨
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
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Did you know in the books Ned Stark was not a good Hand of the King? This short uses evidence from A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons and The Winds of Winter.
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Tywin: “Quite a man. What killed him?”
Arya: “Loyalty”
Stupidity***
It's more like Stupidity lol🤦😂🤣
More like his dumb stupidity 😂
His compassion for Jon killed him. He didn't want Cersei to go through the same thing as they were both trying to hide their kids true parentage from Robert.
"the plot"
“You’re just a soldier aren’t you”. A great character, just it.
Exactly
He isn't a very good natural leader
@@chideraalexanderdex547we're still reminded by the North throughout the entire story how much of a great Lord was Ned for them. He just wasn't good at Southron politics, but you can't call him a bad leader.
@@Birruaze Given how swiftly the North fell apart after Ned's death I'm not sure Ned was a very good leader for the North either, actually. It's not true there were no politics in the North. They presented differently, but they were still present.
Nearly all of the cracks Robb inherited were there during Ned's life and Ned took seemingly no actions to deal with any of them. While Ned ignored them they compounded.
@@SkirneExactly, its like comparing medieval Norse politics too Byzantine internal affairs.
Apples and oranges.
@@Birruaze politicking can be about leading and/or keeping the power no matter what means. Ned may or may not be a good and just leader, but certainly not a mindful politician
The bad part about Ned was he wasn't a bad man he was just naive enough to believe every one could be like him
He came from a more decent place. People being that Machiavellian was a foreign concept to him and he placed too much faith in his friend Robert that he had made the Crown better than it was during the Rebellion.
Absolutely
empathy is lacking in people who have extreme personalities...
either too nice or too cruel
@@therearenoshortcuts9868 Empathy is lacking in people who are too nice? The two are synonymous. Empathy is agreeableness. As in, an excess of being nice.
Ned wasn’t overly “nice” and having more empathy wouldn’t have gotten him anywhere. He lacked the capacity to see the wickedness in others. Vigilance is what would have kept him alive and saved the realm.
@@jmeds94 Well Said 🎯
Ned Stark’s problem was he had no experience with kingdom politics except in the North, no shadow royal council or councilors, and he was tossed straight into the Deep End of the Pool. If he was given a chance to shadow Jon Arryn for a year he probably would have been far better at his job as Hand.
Ned had a lot of kingdom policies. The north has policies. The problem is Tywin had 20 years to build his up
I mean you see the same thing in the north when bolten took over the north are working in secret to take over
Wouldn't Arryn as well have conspired to screw him over, game of thrones style? I suppose, being in the right position like being the hand of the new king in power gives you some benefits and leverage you wouldn't want to so easily give up?
@@az21bob666The Boltons didn’t have a plot at this time though, that happened with the help of Tywin during the war. They only had a well known grudge for thousands of years beforehand.
Better, but still not great - King's Landing politics are not Northen Politics
Oh, had to refresh my memory on Westerosi lore. So the Maester took matters on that question in his own hands, aparently, and removed that option from the equation? 🙂
I mean, if I heard from the Master of Coin that the crown was several million in debt (during peace time, mind you), I would have been, "Yeah... you're fired."
In all fairness this came with: the King likes spending money. It's not like they can say no to him at the end of the day. A good Hand would be responsible for telling the King no. That one is on Jon Arryn.
@@TemariNaraannaschatzYeah until you actually look at the books and realize it's not adding up.
@@higharchbishopofteatasting6217 This, he shouldn't have fired LF on the spot but the debt was certainly worth looking more into
@@TemariNaraannaschatzThe problem is... Rob wasn't spending THAT MUCH. It was hinted that Little Finger had been embezzling a ton and messed with the book to cover his track.
@@scipio764 That's now what my point was: it's completly believable what LF tells Ned. Ned knows Robert and has seen him and he has been spending way too much.
So when LF takes a piece for himself on the side it's not noticable between the absured spending habits of Robert and he can get away with it even if it is a lot.
If you constantly see Robert having tourneys, fests, going to brothels, eating way too much etc. it's completly normal to assume he actually spend this much, even if LF found ways to have a huge cut for himself.
Ned's a war commander, not a politician. Hell, he was more than willing to call the banners to ride north of the Wall to take down Mance Ryder long before Jon Arryn died.
He's not even really a war commander. The orders were coming from Robert during both Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion... and even when he broke the siege of Storm's End, there weren't any decisions to make as Mace Tyrell literally rode off once they approached.
Same as when approaching King's Landing, as Tywin had already taken the city. There were no military decisions to make other than to order the men to stop marching.
He was truly a soldier, and taught to follow, as he was not expected to lead. That was obviously Brandon's place.
Ned is so well-written because of it. He wasn't prepared for the palace intrigue, as he literally wasn't prepared for it...
It's the main reason so many of us love Ned. He's a good and honorable man, who the writer allowed to make the mistakes he should actually make.
Any war commander would know what to do in such a situation. The dynamics of victories and defeats of battles and wars are not so different from politics; they are politics. Militaries in themselves can get highly political, heard enough stories and seen enough news to know.
@@ibrahimkuyumcu2649Really depends on the war I suppose. From what we see Ned’s only real experience in politics was getting married to his dead brothers wife and keeping Theon as a political hostage. Past that it was basically just have Robert throw himself at the enemy and watch the carnage.
After all he wasn’t made hand of the king because he was politically savvy like John Aryn, it was because Bobby B could trust him.
Really no matter how you cut it Ned simply had no chance in a game of cloak and dagger with the Lannisters, especially so far from the north in King’s landing. Even their family origin story is about how they conned their way into Casterly Rock.
@@Clippidyclappidy a big part of war is exactly the part Ned struggled with as a politician. Having men you can trust in the proper positions and making the right alliances. We even see Rob struggle and fail with the politics of war. Struggling to keep his bannermen happy and losing some as a result, trusting the wrong men and leaving himself and his army vulnerable etc
Ned Stark was a Lord of the Rings hero in a real world house of politics.
He exercised honor and virtue in a city almost literally made of corruption. He expected everyone to have at least some principles, and he discovered way too late that almost everybody there is a soulless backstabber who’ll do and say anything to get the upper hand.
was he the Donald Trump
vs the Deep State? LOL
@@therearenoshortcuts9868no
@@therearenoshortcuts9868 Keep deamin, sweet summer child...
@@MadMatTom7769 He ain't wrong. They did unite against him to discredit and de-platform him.
@@SeptonFicomparing Donald trump to Ned stark is crazy
In the books, Loras Tyrell volunteers to lead the party which was supposed bring down the mountain. Ned refuses him, thinking he is too young for such a task, which is also a big mistake. If he would put Loras to the task, Lannister-Tyrell relations would be irreversibly broken
We could have an undeath Loras !!
If Ned had the moral compass of Littlefinger ,thats exactly what he would have done in order to ensure that Mace Tyrell would never ever deal with the people whose barbarian killed his son.
Oooh daaamn. That'd be a Tywin, 100,000,000 steps ahead in 8D chess move.
I really do wonder what could have happened is Ned would've been a bit more political. I assume it would have just corrupted him, as happens to everyone else, IRL and Westeros.
Only if Loras loses. Probably would have but still. But Ned's focus was on saving lives so he sent someone he thought more likely to succeed.
Not really all Tywin has to do is kill the mountain or just offer him over to the Tyrell’s it wouldn’t matter in the long run especially because Lora’s was a better lancer than the mountain.
I don't even think Ned thought he was a good hand of the King
I don’t think that he wanted to be hand of king.
@@tygressbladehe didn’t lol. Only reason he accepted it was to try and find proof “Cersi” poisoned Jon Arryn
@@doc_holliday9484 No, the reason he did it is because Robert asked him to. Ned was nothing if not loyal.
@russman3787 He was going to turn down Robert, then Cat urged him not to, then the letter from Lysa showed up and Ned decided to do it to find out what happened with Jon Arryn.
@@tygressblade I don't think I know he didn't
All the reasons that were listed, involves playing the game. And Ned refused. Also, an honest man wouldn't think to just remove people from power. He'd assume they could atleast work together and be mature about it. He wanted to do his 9-5 and clock out.
No, they don't. With the exception of meeting with Cersai,, every single one of these suggestions is basic good governing. He had the right to openly do all of them as an honest man. Baelish was a failing and ineffective finance minister, he should have been replaced with someone who would do the job correctly. Same for Varys. He knew that the police should be loyal to him because they are in the North. That's how it works all over the kingdom. The other suggestions require him to be truthful, and he chose not to be. Instead he tried to play his own games and lost. Trying to keep the peace and not rock the boat is its own kind of game.
Ned's issue is that everything was laid out for him in Winterfell. People there were following centuries of tradition and simply honoring his position. In King's Landing he would have to institute new laws on his own volition, and he had no experience with that. He would have to be forceful in a way he doesn't need to be at home. He didn't know how to do it. Being forceful doesn't mean being dushonest or underhanded . It meant that he needed to start from scratch creating a new government. That was his obligation to the kingdom, and it took him too long to realize it.
@@LPno.9thinking you can just “get rid” of someone in a high position is naive. Even if you legally could do it, there’d still be political consequences. They have friends and allies. Not to mention, who does Ned know in Kings landing that could do their jobs and be trusted?
Robert was the king and he couldn’t just remove those people. He didn’t trust any of them.
Baelish secretly but intentionally indebted the crown and made it financially reliant on him. If he goes, so does the money. It’s not as simple as “I can’t trust you, bye.” If you get rid of your debtors, no one is gonna give you anymore money. Ned was not a bad hand of the king. He was just trying to be a good, honorable man.
While some suggestions are playing the game, like cersei. The others are what he's supposed to do as hand. The hand of the King is supposed to be his hand, i.e. second in command. He isn't just another member of the small council.
Removing LF wouldn't be based on personal motives but the fact the crown is millions in debt despite it being a time of peace for 15 years.
@@LPno.9Robert put the Crown in debt not little finger. The master of coins job is to find the coin. Robert didn't care how little finger found it.
And I don't understand your problem with Varys. He's the master of whispers and did a great job at that.
Also, wanting to keep the peace and not rock the boat is the complete opposite of playing a game. Theres nothing wrong with wanting everyone to get along.
@@stansman5461he didn't put the crown in debt. Robert did. How else was little finger supposed to keep up with Roberts lavish demands, if he didn't borrow the money? Do you think Robert would listen to little finger if he explained that the crown couldn't afford his expenditure? Hell no
Ned grew up around soldier's and was trained as one. Not as a politician.
Exactly. Not to mention that living in the North may as well been a different country and realm altogether, and one where his word was absolute he literally wielded the authority of a King. No one in the North would even consider so much as lying to Ned Stark, let alone actually crossing him. Northmen were pretty upfront to and could be taken at face value. They say what they mean and mean what they say. The environment was alot harsher, and in harsher environments people generally don't have much time or tolerance for deception and playing games. Robb was ready to have Greatjon Umber hanged for breaking an oath, and even Greatjon, as formidable as he was, knew he was treading dangerously close to crossing a line, and quickly reeled himself back in when he saw that Robb was willing to make good on his words. The North was a place where if you made a promise and gave someone your word, you either made good on it, or you died trying. But going back on your word, or purposefully deceiving someone, was unthinkable, because it meant that your life was literally forfeited. So Ned was simply not wired for life as a political leader in King's Landing. The every day things that people in King's Landing did without much thought, like lying and deceiving others, would get you strung up in the North. Ned may as well have been on entirely different planet.
He was a good ruler for Winterfell, just not for King's Landing. It would be like a small town mayor suddenly becoming a Vice President. Small town politics are way different than on a National level.
I mean, he did rule over all of the North which is the largest of the 7 kingdoms. It’s just George makes a point that Northern politics are extremely different than those in the south, and it’s well know that Starks almost entirely kept to the North through the Targaryen reign because they don’t do well with southern politics
Yes, Northmen, like the Ironborn and Dornish are different culturally than the middle kingdoms. That's why even after bending the knee to the Dragons, each of them usually do their own thing and stay out of Kingslanding
@@MacTac141North is only Geographically large but not as populous as the big kingdoms like the Reach or Riverlands
Also Ned faced no threats to North in his lifetime
@@dv9239@dv9239 yeah the North is like Alaska to King's Landing as Washington DC with so many people in dense living like New York City. It doesnt matter how much larger the other one is, more people are in the smaller city and since its metropolitan its more every man for himself than the familial bonds of the North.
Tywin: “And if you so much sensed a snuff of treason from the rest, Varys, Baelish, Pycelle…”
Tyrion: “Heads. Spikes. Walls”
and yet no one blames tyrion for not doign that as soon as he found out that pycell..you know was committing treason
@@stevenhedge2850 difference is that Ned left them there and try to ignore the problem away. Tyrion used Pycelle as his own piece
@@LordNodim not really. pycelle is tossed into the dungeon and not executed and gets out after because of cersei
@@stevenhedge2850 Tyrion had other problems to worry about so I think he just left Pycelle in dungeons but Ned didn't do shit or even tried to play games to check their loyalty
Proceeds to only remove Janos Slynt from the small council
Ned was a great man, one of the few left in Westeros, but he was not fit to play the game of thrones for his honour would not allow him to play it properly
Using hindsight to up or lower someone is never good.
Ned was thrown into a pit of fire with how many backroom plots were going on before he was there
Example includes cat telling little finger and varys what was happening in winter fell. Cersie and the kids. Stannis leaving after finding the truth. Renly trying to get the taryls in while pushing cersie out. Everything little finger is doing and same with varys.
Ned only got GOT when a boar took Robert out by sheer luck same as his leg thanks to worse stark tattle telling
Maybe Ned did get thrown into the fire pit. But Ned's so-called "honor" is what got him burned.
@@theknave1915 again that's an excuse. He was ready to leave at many points and only got unlucky as George really wanted him taken out
It's like Saying stannis would lose the battle in kings landing for being rigid when it was many small factors that decided the victory for the lannisters from the starks not joining stannis. The battle at the mill and little fingers plan etc. Ned had the same thing happen to him and heck even dany who didn't want to be where she is. It all compounded together but most act like Ned had no idea what he was doing
@@ivanbluecool oh, it's an excuse, is it? I'm sorry. Good old Ned did nothing wrong and Martin just "wanted" to kill him off? Couldn't be anything else he just got "unlucky."
Nah fam, Ned Stark slept walk into the headsmans block and anyone who read the books knows it. He fumbled the bag at every step; and why? Because Ned was honorable. He didn't skip town after getting jumped by the Lannisters because he didn't want to abandon Robert. He didn't want to follow littlefinger's plan to take power because it wasn't honorable. Every blunder Ned made was because he was a good and honorable man and he was so much better than everyone around him. That's Ned's fault, not anybody else's. Everyone else was playing the game.
@@theknave1915 thanks for confirming my point by just saying "honor bad". You basically are saying it's Ned's fault for all the plots that were happening before he got to kings landing not after and how cat and sansa threw him deeper forcing him to work with little finger and get cersie ready with arms yeah that's totally his fault.
Read my last posts you definitely missed everything.
Bet you also forgot his honor is what is and still kept winter fell alive with the north remembering the starks. If Ned was a horrid person and not work so hard to make the north a great place(when he wasn't even supposed to lead it anyways btw) we wouldn't get the plots happening at this moment in Jon helping to boaster stannis army as well as rob being able to rally the army even while Ned was away on top of how hard the northern men are working to get the starks back in charge. If it was the Lannisters nobody would even think about having them return to power.
You gotta go through the books again and see how much Ned's honor has done good but you probably forget that as most do thinking show Ned is how he acted and love acting like betrayal doesn't come with backlash(as it does) with how broken the Lannisters have become with varys back stabbing Kevin and co leaving kings landing ready for an invasion due to all of them not caring to keep their word like Ned did. That's what makes Ned great and the southern groups fall to ruin.
Again Ned was given the worst thing possible. If even one thing had gone differently he'd be leading the army and rob wouldn't have gotten taken out due to cat's bad deal making(after telling men she couldn't trust everything happening before Ned arrived)
I'll leave it at that. Tywins kids all caused his problems same as renly and varys as they all stand alone while Ned tried to teach his kids to stand together. Sansa didn't listen and caused one of his problems next to cat taking Tyrion which caused his leg problem
But please keep lying that everything is Ned's fault when everyone else made things worse when he had a plan(remember cat took tyrion which started the war Ned knew was coming but didn't expect it to happen so soon thanks cat for ruining that)
End of conversation I won't waste my time again. You clearly love betrayal and that's the mindset that leads to problems in our and their world equally. Bye
Ned literally screwed up many times in King's Landing, like by telling Cersei, not telling Robert at all, allowing his daughter who he raised to be naive and trusting to be manipulated by people he thought were murderers and not giving her a heads up, he ignored Renly's plan, he stupidly trusted LF despite no reason to do so (who trusts the guy who wants to do his wife), etc He wasn't suited to cunning or intrigue and it got him killed
He was too noble 😢, instead on focusing on "what is," he focuses on "what should be."
So in short Ned was bad at his job because he wasn't able to fix 15 years worth of problems created by the poor leadership of Robert and Jon Arryn in less than a year, while also trying to solve the murder of his predecessor, the attempted murder of his son and preventing the assassination of the king. Got it. Monday morning quarterbacking at it's finest. SMH
Thank you so much for having common sense bro. It is sad that people are staining his legacy with this "he should have done this or he should have done that"
Lol pretty much. Its funny when he even finds out the crowned debt he even accuses the entire council saying "how could you let this happen" he can't just fix it all under a few months in power.
That being said yes he wasnt "bad" but he definitely was foolish. He made mistakes thinking people will be as honourable as him. If he was more shrewd and a spice of tyrion he would have been fine.
@@Superfoodcookie Things didn't actually work out much better for Tyrion though did they? He only survived the Battle of the Blackwater thanks to plot armor, and afterwards was pretty easily stripped of all his power, effectively undoing all he accomplished in his time as Hand.
I think running King's landing is a tough job for anyone, especially if you're coming in at the 11th hour and have to play catch up, while people who are supposed to be on your side are running interference against you.
That's not what this is. It's one thing to say honour prevented him, but even honour being in place he made bad decisions.
As hand of the King it's literally his duty to know and pick members of the small council, more so when he knows his friend doesn't know jack about ruling. He's the king's hand, he's supposed to be in power of the council, not a member.
Same way, the city watch is directly under him as hand. He shouldn't have it under the command of someone he knows nothing about.
It's not that he didn't abuse his power or play the game. He didn't even act as a hand is supposed to.
@@stansman5461 First of all you're making arguments against points that I never made. I never mentioned Ned Stark's honor as a hindrance because I don't see it as one. Second everything you're proposing is easier said than done. There are logistical hurdles to replacing the entire small council and the leadership of the city watch, which Ned might have been able to clear if he'd had more time or the luxury of focusing solely on those issues. But his attentions were divided between fixing Roberts past and present mistakes, and uncovering various plots against the crown and his own family. On top of it all he didn't actually have the support of the man who gave him the job. Despite having named Ned hand Robert continually undermined his authority, and sided with people who were working against them both.
People always talking like Ned Stark blew a layup, when the truth is it's more like he got pulled off the bench in the last quarter of a game with the other team already holding a 10-point lead and a referee in their pocket.
Id love to see an alternate story line, where the war doesnt kick off and we get Ned, Rob, Stannis, Renly, Robert, Tywin, Baristan, Jamie and Tyrion all in one room working out what they should do about the White Walkers or Wildlings, hell even Oberin and Doran.
It would be amazing to see them working together, especially in a war, Tywin, Stannid, Rob and Robert would be a military powerhouse.
The Hand doesn’t have the power to replace the Kings Council. They certainly make suggestions and recommendations but the King has the final say in all appointments as it’s his council. The examples of Hands making appointments and changes on their own are all also acting as Regents as well as Hand. Ned would have to have good reason to remove those people.
Robert’s Council besides Ned himself consists of Stannis & Renly Baratheon as master of Ships & Master of Laws and were Robert’s brothers so your not removing them without explaining why. Varys & Littlefinger has proven to be valuable yes men to Robert and both also maintained networks of spies, enforcers & informants which was fairly common knowledge. Pycell is a Maester and was assigned by the Citadel meaning you had to go through them to remove the Grand Maester but he was also a Lannister Loyalist meaning he had the Queens protection. Ned was the new guy in town and had few friends beyond the King and his own men and was way outside his sphere of influence.
I mean, that's more complicated than that, Littlefinger despite all his lies, actually made a point when he said Robert is the one that spend the money, Littlefinger is actually quite good with money but he can't stop the King from doing dumb things (if Jon couldn't, how Littlefinger would?)
For Varys, he's the one with the arguably biggest spy "web" in the world, his spy aren't loyal to the crown, they are loyal to him, you can't really "replace" him because that would mean throwing all his spies to the trash and create new ones from scratch
The master of coin finds the gold, the king spends it
Yep, all of these would or could have happened with more time.
"how are you going to throw, "in the books" in there, when is exactly what happened in the show.
Disinherit the children would never have worked, cersei would just have taken control herself instead
His political naivety was terrible
Actually that's an oxymoron. His political nativity was impeccable! Unfortunately, superb nativity doesn't pair well with politics.
Ned had a lot of great ideas fhat only didn't pan out because he has to get taken out due to the story needing him gone.
If any little small occurrence changed he'd be home and able to lead the troops. No way for the res wedding to occur on top of joining stannis immediately aka rob won't start the whole king of the north thing which would stop renly from going king knowing ned/the north would be against him which then would make a powerful combined front and no stark hostages means kings landing is done even with little finger or varys trying to take their own moves as they can't affect the noeth Tully and baratheon powers at once
his biggest failing was not winning the loyalty of the writer LOL
Ned could have been great! Winterfell was ran perfectly. He didn’t have time to establish his own there. If he had more time the realm would have been in good shape
I don't know about perfectly.
If that was the case, Bolton and Karstark shouldn't have wielded that much power.
True he didn’t have much time but that doesn’t necessarily excuse his poor performance. He really ought to have sought more friends out given he was sleepwalking the realm into civil war. Good man, but foolish too. He was shaking the very foundation of lies the peace was built upon but was holding himself back from doing anything too drastic in the city. Openly called for the Mountain’s head and got the ball rolling on Tywin but wouldn’t replace/dismiss disloyal people from the small council.
But Winterfell was full of northerners with a northern code not the sky games of the south
He was always dumb. Most of the starks were politically stupid.
@@scipio764they were all independent in their region.
And karstark was a very loyal house until robb stark killed their father.
They fought many wars together and if ned stark would be there karstark would never have killed those Lannister childrens.
He respected ned for being an honourable man.
So ned does not have to care about them.
And Boltons were also disguising as loyal to ned stark.
Ned was only in the capital acting as Hand for 3-6 months...
He wasn't the best for sure, but some of this is just hindsight.
interestingly
by what standards are we judging?
Tyrion was "better " --> still lost his job in the end
Tywin was "Better" --> also got killed in the end
etc...
I think we should also not forget how Cathlyn practically torpedoed any plans Ned had. Her basically kidnapping Tyrion escalated things to a massive degree. He explicitly told her to head north, and ready it for War with the Lennisters, she didn´t. Instead she went on her lil "road trip with Tyrion".
This should be call what if someone else entirely that's not Ned Stark is a hand of the king
Putting Jory as head of the city watch would have helped a lot
The City Watch thing always bothered me. Tyrion replaced the commander with a sellsword by the stroke of a pen a Ned tried yo bribe the current one. Like why.
Again, hindsight is 20/20. He wasn't used to the scheming politics of Kings Landing, and honestly it was Robert who made the mistake of appointing him, because he should have known this better then anyone else. Ned was set up for failure from the very start.
The Problem was, he didn't trust anyone. Getting rid of Littlefinger with the crown so much in dept would be wise, but it appeared Robert was the one to blame for for this mess and his wife, which he trusted, advised him to trust Baelish. So this was a bad advice as she found out too late.
Littlefinger: “Starks! Slow minds, fast tempers.”
He wasn't great, but he also had every reason not to be. He was in a new place, with new people and new rules to play by. It's easy for us to sit on the outside looking in with buckets of hindsight and say: "You should've done this and that."
Eddard Stark was a smart man with good principles, and likely could've grown into a fine Hand if he'd had time to learn the game. Adding to that, we've seen rather few good Hands in the main story. It's kind of just Tywin and Kevan.
I think part of the beauty of game of thrones is that theres so many "if only-" moments. Because it illustrates real character, people are flawed, people make mistakes, sometimes those mistakes come with great prices.
100% agree with this. I feel Ned was solely responsible for the downfall of his house and family being murdered by the events that followed. He couldn't speak up for himself and stand his ground. He was a big push over and very ignorant.
That is a terrible assessment of his character. He was far from a pushover, did people forget he literally called for the arrest of Tywin and the head of the Mountain? He was a PTSD ridden veteran that did not want to see the horrors he saw at the sacking of King's Landing repeated. He also just had a lot of bad luck.
Furthermore, the Great Northern conspiracy proves that the Starks did something non of the "players" of the game did: earn the love of their people and ensure their survival would ALWAYS be fought for.
I agree that he shouldn’t have confronted Cersei giving her time to counter. Other than that it is not wise for a new leader to come in and immediately made drastic changes. Especially in the case where we find out how much influence these men have.
Ned was an idiot. Robb was an even bigger idiot.
Loyalty is a wonderful quality, but Ned should’ve planned better. And Robb knew nothing of loyalty. You agree to a marriage pact and you uphold it.
Robb was an idiot for accepting it in the first place. The Freys are vassals of Tullys, lowering to meet their demands to cross a bridge was beyond undignified of a Great House. That marriage pact was a sham.
Also, Robb was a boy, no political experience whatsoever. If anything, it shows the incompetence of his council, not him.
Let's not pretend that Walder Frey and Roose Bolton weren't going to betray Robb regardless if he had married Walder's daughter or not. Roose was actively weakening Robbd hold with each battle he was in. Putting the forces loyal to Robb on the front line to die first. Edmure was literally Walder's son by law and he still betrayed him.
In the show, yes. Robb definitely broke his path. But in the books, after learning of the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon. In a moment of grief, he sleeps with Jeyne Westerling. In an effort to preserve her honor. He marries her. So in the show, it's for love. But in the books, it's for honor.
@@ambroseyoung9774Not necessarily. Roose preserved his forces because he wanted to see which side would win before committing himself, if Robb would win he would have a strong position to gain new lands because of large number of troops he was able to preserve, and if Tywin would win he would be able to exert control over the north because of the same reason. Walder didn’t really betray Edmure because he never cared about the wedding and alliance with him at all, wedding was nothing more then an instrument for Walder and Roose to gain power. They were both men without loyalty and care for oaths for sure, they were simply opportunists that that join the winning side
@@ambroseyoung9774chances are though that walder Frey would have kept his word though because he wanted his daughter to marry a king which rob was
Ned didn't want to be the hand. Robert didn't pick the best guy, he just wanted his friend to be in the position
No. He was actually pretty good. If he did all of this he might still be alive. But when Tywin stops funding King's Landing and Varys and Littlefinger are dislodged from their positions and sent home or imprisoned. Their collaborators aren't going to be happy. He might still be alive. But Robert might also be so mad at him at the misfortune the kingdom goes through that he's disgraced and punished.
The reason they had to kill Jon, Robert and Ned was because they were too competent. Not because they weren't. The Lannisters actually screwed themselves over by doing it. They ensured that their claim to the throne would never go unchallenged. And so they very quickly lost the loyalty of nearly the entire seven kingdoms.
Their only saving grace being that the Reach and the Stormlands broke into in-fighting as each had rival princes to place on the throne.
"Honorable fool!" - Bobby B
no lies detected.. for his defence, he didn't want to be in kings Landing and probably wanted to get fired and return to Winterfell with his family
He almost went home but roberts goring and death kept him there. Then his honor got him killed by Cersei and her dumb ass not knowing how to control Joffrey. She had every opportunity to win the game right then and there but fumbled it like an idiot.
He was a man who played by the rules, pure and simple. He assumed that everyone else did too.
Ned had very smooth brain, and he seems like never used it
@@stevenseagull2030 with the help of his daughters 💀
He wasn’t bad Hand, he just served a terrible King. He was in Kings Landing for all of ten minutes when he discovered like 8 different plots and council of scheming fools who, lest all of y’all forget, all had the favor of Robert his friend and King. There wasn’t an easy way to get rid of the people who caught his notice without, A) turning the people of King’s Landing against him, B) arousing Robert’s fury, C) disregarding his honor, and D) dying in the process like the last Hand of the King. I don’t think it’s fair to assume he should’ve immediately tried to claim dominion over the city even after knowing his character and the fact that he was JUST getting started as Hand.
@@ezdub5762the Hand is there to support kings.. even terrible ones. The video proves it. Firing LittleFinger makes sense
@@ezdub5762 let’s begin with simple things like why he told Cerci about her children 💀?? When Renly offered him a chance he refused, at least he could escape with his daughters , but no he didn’t and he had sent most of his guard with lord beric
Ya, especially knowing Littlefinger is such a shady person who probably has a bone to pick with your house considering you took his girl and your brother embarrassed him, priority #1 should of been replacing him. Im sure word must of got to him that Janos Slynt was corrupt , especially since he knew he had to bribe him and the goldcloaks to do their duty.
Stupidest stark ever 🤣 cregan stark most glorious stark
In Ned's defense, enthusiastic fans calculated that Ned spent a grand total of around 5-6 months in King's Landing, 2-3 months of which he spent in the dungeons. That leaves 2-4 months of being actually "in office" as hand.
Cleaning up Robert's messes, learning the rules, intrigues and power dynamics of the Red Keep, tracking down Robert's children and investigating Jon Arryn's findings, being a father to two girls, one of whom is arranged to marry a future king, and the other obsessed with getting in trouble, dealing with the issue of a potential dothraki invasion, organizing a tourney, etc., and doing all this in 2-4 months is an insane schedule. To make it worse, Ned only had one actual powerful ally in King's Landing - Robert himself -, but Robert was far more occupied with being a depressed mess of a man trying to drink his sorrow than giving Ned a speedrun in the backstabbery of royal politics.
Your comment explains it in the most wholesome way possible, it's a shame it's underrated
He loved Robert
I'm just happy in the show they didn't made Ned and Robert gay
If it was Netflix they would 😭
@@EmanKhan09 In the books, it is very unclear whether Loras and Renly were lovers. But in the show they were sucking eachother every 5 minutes
I think Ned just held his honor really close to his heart even understanding how thing ran in KL he didn’t want to submit to their ways and tries to fix the issues with his sense of justice
Littlefinger had so much money hidden and deals with various sources that there was no way he could be easily replaced.
even with all those mistakes he made by not replacing the council or using varys he was still able to win XD his fatal mistake was telling Cercei that he knew about her bastard sons and not taking his daughters out in advance
Ned did trust someone in the council: Grand Maestre Pycelle.
They had a few conversation were it seemed that Pycelle was helping him, giving the books 📚 and stuff, but he also was keen on keeping Lannister men around and not dissolving the council.
A lot of Ned's problem was isolation ... yes, he was a fish out of water in King's Landing, but as far as reshaping the Small Council ... who does he turn to for replacements? The Manderlys were the only Northern house who memebers really stood half a chance at understanding and navigating King's Landing politics and even they would have been thin on southren allies ... and even at that, if he had filled the council with his Northern bannermen ... it would have likely taken weeks or months for them to properly assemble and in the meantime Ned has just made outright enemies of Littlefinger and The Spider.
Does he turn to Stannis to take a seat? Capable man. Probably as trustworthy as Ned council hope for ... But in his own way just as isolated as Ned, and perhaps worse as it might have annoyed Robert
He should have told king Robert as soon he found out and not confront Cercei.
"He should've.. He should've..." Ah yes, Captain Hindsight strikes again. Thankfully, the characters and circumstances in the story were complex enough even for very good people to make mistakes....just like real life.
He went to King's Landing not to be the hand of the King but to investigate Jon Arryn's death. That was his motivation.
That's exactly why he never wanted the position to begin with 💀
Your video makes great points thing is most of
the observations made are just COMMON SENSE!
I said not to trust me - littlefinger
He was either unwilling to, or incapable of wielding the power he held as *the most important person in the realm after the King* - he didn't make hard decisions or compromises until it was too late...
Ned was too honorable for that pit of vipers. King in the North 😔 rip
Actually, Maquiaveli says in "The Prince", that a good leader who is leading in a new environment should not change things inmediatelly, but let things as they are so he can observe the situation and make decisions from there. Ned was hand of the king for around a month. And he started trusting Bealish due to Catelyn's encouragement. Which actually seemed to make sense.
if my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike
To be fair... his "loyalty" probably led him to trust Arryn's judgement of who was on the Small Council.
Bottom line he trusted his friendship with Robert was enough to through everything else.
He was NOT a politician, he was just a Bro
He's not a good politician, but that's what makes Ned Stark... Ned Stark.
As a character, there were so many things off about Ned Stark’s decision making. The first of which is bringing home his sisters child and letting his wife believe John was his bastard. The other thing that seems off was confessing and thinking that that false confession would not mean his execution.
True. True.
And VERY TRUE.
He wasn't dumb, but also not the lightest bulb. Blaming his honor for lack of intelligence doesn't convince me. Everything said here would be acting accordingly to his honor code. He just didn't think. He didn't think of getting rid of dishonest people from the council, didn't think of taking power over the guards watch and mostly he didn't think Cersei was a threat.
He was burying his head in the sand. Just as he was doing since his sister died.
Robert disinheriting the kids wouldnt have mattered... You saw how much people cared with robert putting ned in charge after his death.. it would be civil war again most likely like the targaryens...
He didn’t want to be hand of the king he just accepted his duty
The wildest part is Ned had Jon, who has a better claim than Stannis, Renly, or Jeoffery. Imagine the absolute shitstorm that could have kicked off if he revealed that little truth nuke. Or even as he’s about to be executed he says with his last words: “Long live Aegon Targyerean! Eighth of his name!” Just as the blade falls and he dies.
8th??
There's only been 5 Aegon's made king - if fAegon gets crowned in the books, it'd still only be as 'the 6th'...
Ned was an honorable man, not a great politician.
because unlike most hands, he wasn’t trying to manipulate things to be the actual ruler. It was Robert’s council, he wasn’t going to presume to change it.
No wonder Robert said Ned is "HONOURABLE FOOL!!"...
"You are my counsel...COUNCIL HIM"
Basically Ned dug his own grave...
fish rots from the head down
i don't blame Ned, I blame Robert for giving the wrong man the wrong job
Ned was use to the north. Where honor and traditional customs would have been enough to keep things going. Based on that he kept the small council intact sense they had taken oaths to serve the realm and unless Lord Stark saw firsthand that they had broken such vows it would have been dishonorable of him to humiliate the small council members by firing them without cause. Furthermore, the act of confronting Cercei in person was as a way to help her preserve her honor before being confronted by the kings justice. If she had been a northerner the mere act of confronting her with the truth and implying her disgraceful act of oath breaking to her husband and king would have been enough to have her hide herself in shame and never show herself in court again. Meaning she would have naturally chosen to flee to her father’s house as the oath breaker she was and her brother would have followed her without lord stark needing to force her. Not telling Robert the truth in his death bed was simply a small mercy from one friend to another so that Robert could die thinking he was leaving an honorable house. All misguided when dealing with southern high born scum, but completely appropriate for a Northern lord.
Facts I’ve never agreed with a viewpoint this strongly before
Varys: I want you to serves the realm!!!
This is true. You cannot be good if you're weak. And you cannot be weak if you're good
Too much honor can make you a liability.
None of this would have happened if Cregan Stark was there in place of him
When you somehow are made authority, it’s your duty to keep yourself aware of everything and know how to act and use the information.
Ned's problem is that he is all loyalty and honor, but doesn't understand that not everyone thinks like him and that being the "better man" can lead to misfortune under the wrong circumstances. In this way, I believe he is very naive.
Also, why did he think he needed to protect his sister's son? In reality Lyana betrayed her family to be with Rhraegar. Her actions resulted in the deaths of her father and oldest brother; not to mention a war that saw a dynasty destroyed. What would make him feel indebted to his sister like that?
In the end, it was his compromises that got him killed.
He was compromising his honor by asking Littlefinger to buy off the Gold Cloaks, that led to his capture.
He was by compromising issuing a false confession, that led to him being taken to the executioners block.
He let love be the death of duty in wanting to keep the children safe (first Cersei's, then his own), and it was the final mistake that got him killed.
To be fair, Ned was the Lord Paramount of the North, a realm which didn’t have to deal with issues like millions upon millions of crowns worth of debt and such rampant corruption. So even if he did want to change the council, who would they be replaced with? What contacts would he have who had the connections, experience and capability to deal with those issues?
Isn’t that pretty much the entire theme of his character? In both the books and the show? Hardly a big revelation.
such an honorable men done so dirty in the show, EVEN IN THE BOOKS
You can say he is a bad hand or politician but he is a good person
To be fair, he came in when the crown was at its most unstable.
"By The Mother, that's why they kill3d John Arryn... I'm sure Cersei will stop if I ask her nicely"
He lived his whole life in a place where everybody was scared of him and no one dared cross him, he not only didn't know how to play the game he didn't really know what it was
What reason did Nedd have to think these men could not be trusted? Robber had pardon those that servers Areys before him and didn’t replace them, John had served with them for 15 years and never replaced them. Two men that Nedd trusted had the authority and right to replace them men of the small council didn’t in 15 years, so why should Nedd.
Nedd mistake was putting his trust in men because those he trusted had done so as well, but like with The Rings of Power all of them were deceived.
As far as I know, the Hand is not allowed to fire any member of the Council. Appointing or dismissing members is the king's sole privilege (which dumby Bobby, of course, gives a shit about). And Ned would do all of this if he were actually the machine-like, unfeeling robot with the predictive powers of a god that so many fans would like him to be.
He was a good man, and he definitely wasn't stupid, he just wasn't all that cunning.
“Did you know that Ned Stark was an honorable fool?” Yes.
“The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”
Honestly, should have just asked Stannis to come help him. He would be capable at any position of the council.
It was a mixture of not knowing the schemes of the likes of Littlefinger and Varys, finding out the bombshell about Cersei and kids far too late, not realising Tywin's influence in the city was so deeply set, and just an incredible run of sheer bad luck. He was a solider thrown into a pit of vipers. There's a reason why the hand of the King position usually ends with death.
I don't believe Robert would disown his children even if he accepted the truth. That's because he knew Ned would hate being the king and he would spare his best friend him that fate.
And none of that would have cost him his honor. Ned was a good guy but man was he a fool and so rigid in his thinking and planning
He told Cersei what he knew so she can take her kids and run away because Ned knows if Robert found out he was being played by his wife and wasted years on people he hates, he would've killed every single Lannister, even the kids. Ned didn't want to see the kids die so he gave her a chance. Ned always hated the Lannisters for what Twin did to the people of Kings Landing when he betrayed Aerys and on what happened to Ellia Martell and Rhaegars children. Ned and Robert got into a huge argument over that.