I play both hitbox and stick and I equally like both. IMO hitbox shouldn’t get all the controversy cause that ain’t gonna make you magically more skilled than your opponent. Plus it’s less intuitive than stick and good luck with pretzel motions or 720s.
@@wavetime3651 "Plus it’s less intuitive than stick and good luck with pretzel motions or 720s." This is such a flimsy justification. Yes, certain motions are going to be more awkward, but not every character has pretzel or 720 moves. In fact, I would bet that majority of fighting game characters don't have those motions. Not to mention, poverty players have been using keyboard for a long time doing those motions with great success. This difficulty ceiling argument is not a good one when fighting games are literally about training yourself to **maximize the potential** of your characters and that goes hand-in-hand with execution barrier. Have you seriously not seen what top level players can do that was once deemed "too difficult"? If there's a high, but eventually reachable ceiling someone WILL reach it. It's basic human history. Or am I supposed to believe all Hitbox defenders are inexperienced FGC newbies? I highly doubt that. It's a bad faith argument and I say that as someone who has no horse in this race.
The only reason we use a stick in arcades and now on consoles is because some guy way back when was just like lets use a stick instead of buttons. Maybe this is actually the next stage for how fighting games should be played and the stick and pad are actually flawed and we just never realized it til now. And now that you are finally using this item and are seeing just how easy it is to use it, you think it's cheap when in all actuality this is what should have been used for fighting games since the beginning.
Sad that everyone thinks this is cheating. Clearly no one here that are bitching and whining have actually played against someone using a tool assist....
Should execution be removed from Basketball as well? How about Archery? I think many people are missing my point. It's not that something is easy or hard on one or the other. It's that there is no standard for competitive fighting games because there is no governing body to enforce rules. Even if HitBox is not a big deal and doesn't need to be banned. Where do we draw the line? Anyway, please continue.
@@mustie3492 that the controller in this video will give ppl a edge over the competition, And a cpl days ago Pro SF5 player Daigo was told he can no longer use it.
@@rxraider4778 he was using the hitbox crossfire. Which has a stick, and directional buttons. It also accepts multiple directional inputs at once. Regular hitboxes like this are completely legal
Here's the thing. If someone is using a HitBox, and they're doing crazy stuff, what's stopping YOU from using one? Why ban something that you can go get for yourself when the chances are you're spending more money on the arcade stick you're using? And the thing you said about being able to do stuff on it that is "inhuman" on a stick, is kind of not valid. The game is input, so you can do basically anything you want, just won't be easy. You can do standing 720s on a stick, just isn't easy. I don't know, I don't see a problem fighting with one of these. Whatever boats your float, I guess.
It's surprising to hear his opinion on it. It's not a turbo button. The only "cheating" could be the ability to hit two directions at once, but this can be programmed out and enforced by tournament officials. Aris is just pissed that he likes sticks and will become a dinosaur.
I grew up playing fighting games on a keyboard because I never had money to buy a console so I only had emulators and a computer keyboard. When I became an adult with a job I got consoles and discovered what gamepads and arcade sticks were for fighting games. I never understood why someone would prefer arcade sticks or control pads to a keyboard. The motions necessary require so much less effort and are so much more precise on a keyboard than with an arcade stick. Loving the Hitbox and I'm glad someone did it because I was about to do it for myself. I'm intending to reverse it, though. Putting UDLR on the right side and button the buttons on the other side to match more with how I play on a keyboard.
This is what I'm doing too. Back then, the fgc laughed at keyboard warriors, esp during the launch of vanilla SFIV. Now look at the hitbox, which is just a glorified keyboard. I'll stick with mechanical keyboards and use them in tournaments.
To put it nicely, his argument is invalid as the hit box is designed for fighting games whereas traditional arcade sticks are also designed for fighting games. A baseball bat is designed for baseball, not fucken tennis.
I like it even more how he is mentioning the fucked up DJHero controller. If someone goes to a tournament with that thing and beats my ass, the only thing I'm gonna do is empty my bank account, give it all to that one guy and go kill myself because I can't bare the shame. Would I ban the fuckin' scratch-controller? What am I fucking retarded? Hell nah...
Should be banned? That's laughable. Having never used one nor do I know anyone that uses one and basing this opinion based on your video alone, that's an extreme opinion based on tradition. Tradition is that fighting games are played on sticks, anything else is unacceptable. Yet there would be no reason for this control scheme not to be implemented to an arcade unit within the coming years.Having more precise control over your inputs isn't a reason something should be banned, it's a reason for the player base to move onto the more precise control method. But because it's different to current tradition and advantageous (based on the video alone), it should be banned? I think not. Everyone should play on controller or even a keyboard in that case so it's all standard.
Aris: I bought a hitbox after seeing the Kabal shit and figured out an even easier way to chain gas blasts. You can literally hold the jump button and double tap back, back + 1 over and over to keep gas blasts insanely close to the ground. XXZ did projectile DPS data on the whole cast and found out that Kabal is capable of outputting 19% DPS with IAGB's. 2nd place is Sindel at 11% DPS, the only difference between Kabal and Sindel is she sacrifices an up close game to be a zoning character.
With more and more fighting games not getting arcade releases, console is quickly becoming the standard for fighters. You can preserve arcade culture as long as you want, but especially in the US most people don't care about arcades anymore. If it plugs into my console and doesn't have programmed inputs that play the game for me, it's legit. Arcade culture means nothing to someone who was never a part of it.
pad works like a stick tho. so pad is acceptable. fighting games were never meant to be played on a controller were you can press left/right or up/down at the same time. because if you could you can bet they would have used hitbox style controls in the original arcades because having a cabinet with all buttons would have been cheaper to maintain and manufacture over sticks. sticks/ pad controls were used for a reason. im going to assume all mainstream console games were designed in mind to not be using left/right up/down at the same time considering all official controllers do not allow those inputs to be pressed on any d-pad at the same time.
I know this review is ancient. But I'm getting a Hitbox anyway. I went from Pad to Stick and realized there's things the stick can do easily that the pad struggles with. Hitbox is another step up.
plus, the availability of it is about the same as a typical tournament arcade stick. if you have a Madcatz TE and are familiar with modding, you can actually buy a panel to use a Hitbox layout, but you'd also have to mod the PCB to eliminate SOCD presses.
This is not only biased, but it's making a big deal out of something that was already fixed. Official HitBoxes DO NOT ALLOW FOR SIMULTANEOUS LEFT + RIGHT (nor Up + Down). The folks at SRK Tech Talk have made sure that the firmware in the Cthulhu PCBs used in these things filters these out. The only way for a HitBox to allow these is if it has been modified from official spec. If you disagree with this, you can bring it up in SRK's Tech Talk.
This looks awesome, like a keyboard mod. Used to play a lot of fighting games on keyboard since 2001. The only thing I didn't like on the KB is full 360 motions.
Where I grew up there WERE no arcades. My only way to play any game was on a console. Some people never had consoles and only had PCs. Why should competitive fighting games be limited to a tiny demographic to preserve some tradition? I don't understand the stubborn OG mentality of being scared to death of change in the FGC.
I think the fundamental problem is that most games are not properly balanced for HitBoxes. There's just too many broken tactics that are impossible on stick but trivial on a HitBox.
MrScottyTay Sorry, let me rephrase: they are not literally impossible on stick, just ridiculously difficult (and likewise for dpad). However, Hitbox makes them easy. I am referring to things like halfscreen instant double-jump overheads with UMVC3 Strider.
Yeah that's probably the only case that can really be made against hitbox, but because it's not impossible to do on stick or pad, it's not solid enough of an argument to get hitboxes banned. Honestly it just seems like a superior controller for fighting games, but I doubt it'll ever catch on because people hate change
Sorry for the late response. In Street Fighter and other similar games, you have to stand to block most jump attacks and you can block most ground attacks while crouching. However, in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Strider Hiryu (one of the characters in the game) can do a VERY low, very fast jump attack (that leads into a big combo) from as far as half a screen away; this tactic is extremely difficult (and fairly risky) on a controller/joystick, but easy and simple on a Hitbox. So the end result is that when you're using a Hitbox, your opponent doesn't really have time to react to attacks that must be blocked while standing or blocked while crouching. The defender basically has to guess.
Actually, this type of controller was in use back in the SFII days, and they were regularly banned. They were also banned in all Chicago tourneys back in the SC2 days.
I repsectfully disagree. Hitbox takes time to learn and get proficient with just like a joystick. Let the player play with what they are comfortable on.
Sure, Aris is hardheaded as always but you guys are missing his point. It's not about making things easier. It's about making the impossible possible. The problem isn't with the control method itself but in the fact that THE GAMES WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR THIS INPUT METHOD. (of a finger per direction) They give moves certain inputs to make sure you commit to them for enough TIME. Like having a 1 button DP would break SF w/o changing the game accordingly, this is the exact same deal with some moves.
I like how he started out unbiased and civilized then he de-evolved into attacking what he felt was personally attacking the honor of the days of arcades gone by. But I believe this is why people love Aris.
And the fact that arcades machine are almost non existent now. Arcade stick are legacy controllers now. Fighting games are released on console and pc now. New generation haven't even played on a real arcade machine. Gampad, keyboard, and hit box are the future.
To add to the previous post. A couple guys in our VF scene picked this up and can do Perfect Giant Swings and other stuff they had difficulty doing on a stick. Now they can do it, it opened up more options to them, however because it's VF, you can shut down those new options that are opened up, making this thing just another device to use for fighting games. Now it comes down to preference of controller, nothing really changed.
now that i think about it, the 12 buttons thing was dumb, because the hitbox isn't adding buttons, it's re-arraging the standard setup, however, it still should be banned based on that alteration. no other player has that directional setup. so the fg community could just make a rule that says that any device used to compete must have the standard button setup or else it's banned.
I imagine it would be ridiculous with SF as well. Before 3sOE came out, I was playing 3s on GGPO using my keyboard. Using WASD as my movement keys, I could drum out semicircle movements (ie Dudley's Machine Gun Blow) and most double quartercircle supers, almost instantly. Most notably, Ibuki's Kasumi Suzaku can be pulled off almost as soon as you jump off the ground. No one expects that shit.
Nope, it's not the same thing. It's about how the stick/pad treats the input. I checked up on it and it seems the Hitbox is supposed to interpret: L + R = Neutral; U + D = Up. Thta is fine. With self-made stickless arcade sticks (or by modding the Hitbox) you can make it so that L + R is actually L + R and U + D = U + D. The former would give you perfect guard in MvC3 and the latter would let you block high and low at the same time in Soul Calibur 5. The 360/PS3 pads won't let you do that.
The hitbox also has a far higher learning curve than using pad or stick. Pad you learn instantly, and stick doesn't take as long. The hitbox feels totally different than playing on either of those and you basically have to learn the game again. It's great when you do though. So pad or stick scrubs, stop hating and save up some money and buy one or shut up.
I don't know what's funnier. Scrubs getting butthurt for being called hitbox-using bitches, or pros getting butthurt because they've been using sticks forever and now they're obsolete.
the most funny thing is none of people who dislike this video are good enough for competitive tournament anyway, no matter they using hitbox or not lol
jo hu 1.Hitbox has more natural positions on the buttons so you will never mess up and press the wrong thing. 2. Arcade buttons feel better 3. You can drum and piano on a hitbox
i use keyboard from time to time as a hitbox, with similar up down left right button positioning and kicks and punches too... i find it easier than a pad (yeh im using a xbox pad, i kno not the best) but there are some moves which are harder than pad, like kings move when he grabs ur legs swings u arnd and arnd and lets u go, that move on hitbox like positioning is really difficult, idk why, on pad is easier. can u help me solve why is it like that? and also moves similar in movement of player like the kazuya's ..... down - diagonal right down - right + punch (when the opponent goes in the air)
>Plagiarism I don't think that word means what you think it means. And once again, what makes you so special that you know what they're all going to want?
I totally agree it should be banned. And for those of you that don't think so imagine if it was embraced by the FGC? It would become the standard for tournaments because anyone not using it wouldn't stand a chance. And at that point is it even fun to play anymore? People should be able to play the way they want to not be forced into adopting an unorthadox method. IMO playing a fighting game without a stick is like going to the movies without popcorn it's just not the same without it.
Stating a device is broken because it's too accurate is not a valid reason to put it behind the line of bannable devices. Often the things in question are still possible and often not even intended in the original stages of development. This just allows the user to have much better control, you still have player error and this device has it's own issues of inputs. Half circles on this thing are much harder than on a stick for example.
And you deleted your comment, but I got an email notification about it anyway: For anyone curious this is what he had to say in response. "And this is the exact reason why Japan and Asia will ALWAYS dominate America." Funny how Americans welcome foreigners in to the scene quite openly but they tend to be quite hostile towards us.
Slide back into forward. B,DB,D,DF,F. Hold back and press down for down-back, hold down and hit forward for down forward. Don't let go of the previous button until you contact the next one.
But then there's CIRCLE GATES, smaller than stock RESTRICTOR Plates you can put on your stick that makes the "throw" as little as possible. So you see, your argument gets mute with (tournament legal) mods to the standard stick that are already available as it is. In the end, its left hand, right hand, and the ability to coordinate the both in a superior reactionary way that makes you the best. All these aids I mentioned only get you so far.
PC Street Fighter player here. I use regular arcade sticks but Hit Box is just like a keyboard. It was a little while before I could get my sticks together and I used a mechanical keyboard. It didn't take me long to realize that WASD was absolutely terrible and I eventually bound up to space, finding I could play pretty well. Much better than a pad. This is just the relevant keyboard keys, replaced with Sanwa arcade buttons in an ergonomic arrangement. As such, I don't find it so innovative.
The hitbox doesn't "play the game" for you. The inputs are all still manual and every circuitboard will have a set movement in an overlap whether it's L+R= N, L, or R. People who can't even do a half circle aren't even worth considering. It isn't that hard. Not to mention you'll get neutral even if you don't want to at times (KOF kaiser wave motions, or certain back forward motions). People need to stop finding reasons to hate it. By that logic plinking is bad since it doubles your inputs.
Excellent review, Aris. I think people are missing the point. Regardless of whether or not the device is actually giving an unfair advantage, players, community and tourney organizers need to pay attention to these types of things and decide about where to draw the line. Evolution of devices is wonderful. I'm sure we all agree players should be welcome to any device they can perform their best with. But not if it gives an unfair advantage.
wrong. because left+right = neutral, it does NOT allow for sloppy 180/360 attacks. i don't even know how you drew that conclusion. also, you're not looking at WHY they made left+right = neutral. in games like SF, leaving it as a simultaneous input instead of making it neutral could allow you to block in both directions, which would be illegal when it comes to controller use. the Hitbox doesn't do anything for you. it just makes input more accurate. therefore, it shouldn't be banned.
well when fighting games are released on PC's you cant ban the controller that comes with a PC (keyboard), and that thing is basically a keyboard, same argument as not banning pads
Eh the points he touches on about this are valid, and I agree. I really want one of these, but as far as execution goes, it definitely gives you an unfair advantage. a Standing 720 is easier on a hitbox than it is on a arcade stick. Also all of the shortcuts on SF4/SFxT are easier on hitboxes than they are on arcade stick. I will admit he was hating pretty hard in the end, but from my understanding, he went in on it unbiased in terms of pros and cons go.
Don't really agree with his conclusion (in the sense that I have no opinion whatsoever on competitive gaming regulations), but you're spot on with your keyboard comparison. Back in the DOS days and even on my C64, I used to play fighting games with this sort of "button control" instead of a stick all the time.
I don't know specifics of how well arcades do in every country so I'm not going to argue. Thing is, many parts of the world don't have influence on the US, and fact of the matter is tournaments aren't played on cabinets, they're played on consoles, so consoles are the standard. Like I said, it's fine that you want to keep the arcade feel, I'm not trying to get everyone to play on a Hit Box, preference is what's important, but arcade isn't the standard and controllers shouldn't be judged by it.
I'm not gonna scour the internet to prove a point... Look if you've been playing sf as long as you say you have you'd know that plinking aside you can only have 1 input per frame. Doing 720's with a hitbox you don't have to hit the diagonals meaning you can start your grab that many frames faster. You can't do that on a stick it's impossible to skip those directions. That's makes hitboxing not just a different input method anymore that's a clear advantage.
I own a hitbox and I don't think it should be banned. My reasoning is that while some things are easier, others are much harder. It's really, really difficult to do 360s or 720s in a game that isn't sf4 (because it's so lenient). Tiger knees, chicken wing/hooligan, and half circles are significantly harder. General movement is harder (it's less intuitive). However, I will admit that it's easier to instant charge, KOF short hop, and DP on this thing. Overall it's not so OP it needs banning.
I really hate that it takes at least a year of practicing before you can master a decent level of execution in Tekken. I guess I'mma buy the hitbox soon
It will take a long time no matter what. I play on all controllers and they all have there ups and downs. Hitbox is great at just frames like otgf(and even that isnt easy and effortless to do consistently) but anything involving half circles is much much harder. The idea that hitboxes offer a huge advantage is bullshit, if it were true you would see hitbox users winning tournaments left and right but there are almost none who even use one. And if you look at Evo Japan then you will understand that pros have no issue switching to what will win. No controller is the best, so if you want to hitbox to make execution effortless it's not going to happen. Trust me I own them all, it's all about preference.
The problem that arises with what you guys are saying is that as the levels of skill rises with the players, the type of peripheral being used matters less and less to the point of it being a non-issue. Doing impossible feats at such a high level of gameplay becomes a near impossibility for many people. A Hit Box will not automatically make you a godlike FG player. After all, the best aren't worried about what you're using to win, they want to be number 1 regardless.
I absolutely agree with this, I used one the other day and played against someone using one. it was ridiculous and a real eye opener of the posibilities that open up with this thing, this either has to be banned, or anyone who wants to compete has to get one. This won't turn bad players good, but it absolutely gives a significant advantage, these motions were designed with the limitations of a joystick in mind, a gamepad has the same limitations and should also be allowed.
This stick is crazy overpowered. It literally gives you an advantage impossible from a stick or pad. In UMvC3 you can hold down-back and up and you'll bunny hop well crouching when you land. Usually you can hit a opponent when they land or during their jump frames, but not with this stick. Also it creates option selects against characters like Zangief, if they attack you, you block, if they go for a grab you jump. Totally broken.
We can either ban them OR wait until they drop in price and get more popular , that way with easier execution we can see more people pull of difficult stuff and the games will become more competitive .
Using a hitbox at a high level can cut down on input time and makes it more precise. The stick is more precise than the pad, so what's the difference? It's a keyboard. Also to someone else's comment SOCD doesn't allow sloppy 360's and 180's to work because you'd just get neutral. 180's and 360's require proper technique.
I disagree on several points, but I am tired of getting a blue face over it. If was all true and easy as you say, then I still would happily keep playing Hit Box. We have enough "Qudans" in the world destroying their hands for the amusement of others using arcade stick and pad. And if nothing else it should be allowed for the handicapped. The Hit Boxes small layout opens the door for one handed people to be able play fighting games. Disrespect me or not I am a satisfied Hit Box customer.
@TheSoliquidus Actually the input is not a left+right since those type of inputs are not allowed on most emulators. The input is actually Fwd, Back, Down + fwd(or some weird combination) at a lightning fast pace that is impossible on stick or pad.
Actually the block both ways thing was an issue with HitBox imitations/hacks. The proper PCB used on the Hitbox will not register both left and right at the same time. If you ask for source, I'm afraid I can't provide it, a Hitbox staff member who frequently posts on 4chan talked about this.
I keep hearing the comparison to pads and how you cant do things like that on pad but you can? Triple and double inputs are still a button vs having to return to neutral on a stick no?
i kind of like the hit box, but honestly i cant wait to see someone play a fighting game with a turntable. anyways, this is the execution versus decision making skill argument. an argument for the ages.
@bludika Yes, I was referring to Tekken. If you check out Aris' older vids he has one where he compares a stick to a pad and he talks some about the difficulty back-dash canceling on certain sides of the screen with stick. The fact you find it easier to do on a stick just reinforces my point that the difficulty or ease of use to do things with different peripherals is subjective to the one playing, and you something shouldn't be banned because of someone else's opinion.
There are lots of pad tekken players mainly because, until SF4 was released, finding arcade sticks was not easy and they were in low supply. Now that there is higher demand and supply for arcade sticks, they are far more prevalent in all levels of play, and the Tekken (and 3D fighter community in general) in the West is evolving.
A lot of people getting turnt on an old ass review lol. Currently a pad player but if I keep up this Tekken life the hitbox will see me eventually. Have 20+ years of PC gaming under my belt, there is nothing less scary than transitioning to a keyboard style fight controller, the $200 is far more frightening.
I understand what he mean's by cheating. When I saw the hitbox, I immediately understood that it had a lot of advantages over a arcade stick. And people who disagrees have got to be blind. I think the hitbox gives you godlike execution.It probably won't be banned from tournaments anytime soon so you should just use one
I know this comment is late Aris, but the thing that I think you're failing to recognize is that you can't be disappointed with progress. If game designers want to make more ridiculous QCF, QCB, Double Hit commands, then maybe it's time they made the inputs simpler, and the players more accountable for playing the game instead of spamming complex inputs. I physically modified my stick to get Siegfried's iagA in SCV 90% of the time. Why should an input be so physically hard?
Cheap? Hit Box is just applying keyboard into a form of a fightstick. It's exactly like what thienfoil said. You do realize stick allows you to move around in more fluid motion since you are able to navigate much better with a stick then pressing buttons. Having able to pull off executions are not everything in fighting games. There are pros and cons for everything, and those pros and cons can differ by the users.
To further explain, if you think turbo isn't manual, then let tap movement and not hold left/right keys, cause HOLDING and AUTO MOVING FOR A LONG DISTANT is done by a computer and not manual =/
none of the buttons are programmed inputs. You STILL have to do the inputs by yourself. Now, the input SPEED is yes, gone alot faster because the direction buttons are like your attack buttons now. So what? Shortcuts and customized button settings are all legal in tourneys now, so this can too IMO.
i don't know whats wrong with people against this device? as long as the player have to hit every button manually, i think it's fine! real skill is what happens in the game match.. having a new controller that helps the player to play their tactics more precise is welcomed.. why we should Stop at arcade stick? let innovations be made..
i think the up button being at the bottom is actually smart design, since im a pc gamer, weve been accustomed to WASD controls. now obviously if you want the best inputs possible, youd like to use all four buttons at a time, and we also use the spacebar for jump...which just so happens to be up in fighting games
It was cool hearing how Aris' thoughts from 10 years ago are about exactly the same as it was in the recent video.
I play both hitbox and stick and I equally like both. IMO hitbox shouldn’t get all the controversy cause that ain’t gonna make you magically more skilled than your opponent. Plus it’s less intuitive than stick and good luck with pretzel motions or 720s.
@@wavetime3651 top level players don’t care about input difficulty.
@@wavetime3651 someone who isn't good isn't going to become great. It's about players who are already tournament level good.
@@wavetime3651 "Plus it’s less intuitive than stick and good luck with pretzel motions or 720s." This is such a flimsy justification. Yes, certain motions are going to be more awkward, but not every character has pretzel or 720 moves. In fact, I would bet that majority of fighting game characters don't have those motions.
Not to mention, poverty players have been using keyboard for a long time doing those motions with great success. This difficulty ceiling argument is not a good one when fighting games are literally about training yourself to **maximize the potential** of your characters and that goes hand-in-hand with execution barrier. Have you seriously not seen what top level players can do that was once deemed "too difficult"? If there's a high, but eventually reachable ceiling someone WILL reach it. It's basic human history. Or am I supposed to believe all Hitbox defenders are inexperienced FGC newbies? I highly doubt that. It's a bad faith argument and I say that as someone who has no horse in this race.
Aris for president
And we had to wait for more than 7 years, and Daigo, for the true controversy to begin.
yeah
Is this tournament legal?
@@mustahsanalikhan2221 no
@@diegogatjens1728 stoners... smh
And it's back again lmfao. Goddamned zoomers these days
It's funny. He used to be so nice and polite before he was a twitch streamer.
But now, twitch chat has hardened his heart with bong water.
The jailer is the key.
He was definitely alwas like that.
@@ICatzzz *finger guns
@Marvin Gatlin I've been watching it for decades. On my stone caveman tv.
i know I'm kind of randomly asking but does anybody know of a good site to watch newly released tv shows online ?
7 years later and we got a hitbox with a stick on it lol
Sadly no, if both were an option a stick would just be added. It's a completely redesigned.
Quickly went from review to rant
Ah yes. This finally gets re-reccomended to me due to recent events and stomping on and placing flags in gods ass
Worth
7:04 Aris tried to warn us about the cross up, but nobody listen...
Aris stays real to his words untill today (2022)
not now though lol
10 years later he still thinks the same... what a bigot.
0:46 he hexed the hitbox. This caused the daigo controversy.
The only reason we use a stick in arcades and now on consoles is because some guy way back when was just like lets use a stick instead of buttons.
Maybe this is actually the next stage for how fighting games should be played and the stick and pad are actually flawed and we just never realized it til now.
And now that you are finally using this item and are seeing just how easy it is to use it, you think it's cheap when in all actuality this is what should have been used for fighting games since the beginning.
no
***** hitbox is ugly and if mastered, completely unfair.
***** I think someone won a MK tourn with a hitbox. It was really cheap due to the execution of the hitbox. It's almost like an input MOD
***** exactly! :)
***** and that is why the hitbox is a piece of shit!
Sad that everyone thinks this is cheating. Clearly no one here that are bitching and whining have actually played against someone using a tool assist....
Should execution be removed from Basketball as well? How about Archery? I think many people are missing my point. It's not that something is easy or hard on one or the other. It's that there is no standard for competitive fighting games because there is no governing body to enforce rules. Even if HitBox is not a big deal and doesn't need to be banned. Where do we draw the line? Anyway, please continue.
I agree like you said especially with while running moves
I love this review. It is a classic. I had to come back to watch it after I saw the Cross|up reveal.
Aris tried to warn us all, but we didn't listen
Crazy right
@@rxraider4778 warn about what
@@mustie3492 that the controller in this video will give ppl a edge over the competition, And a cpl days ago Pro SF5 player Daigo was told he can no longer use it.
@Carmine twitch runs on IRC
@@rxraider4778 he was using the hitbox crossfire. Which has a stick, and directional buttons. It also accepts multiple directional inputs at once.
Regular hitboxes like this are completely legal
Here's the thing. If someone is using a HitBox, and they're doing crazy stuff, what's stopping YOU from using one? Why ban something that you can go get for yourself when the chances are you're spending more money on the arcade stick you're using? And the thing you said about being able to do stuff on it that is "inhuman" on a stick, is kind of not valid. The game is input, so you can do basically anything you want, just won't be easy. You can do standing 720s on a stick, just isn't easy. I don't know, I don't see a problem fighting with one of these. Whatever boats your float, I guess.
It's surprising to hear his opinion on it. It's not a turbo button. The only "cheating" could be the ability to hit two directions at once, but this can be programmed out and enforced by tournament officials. Aris is just pissed that he likes sticks and will become a dinosaur.
Fighting games also come out on PC, where the Hitbox style of playing came from. Just saying. Isent that just banning their peripheral?
no, a hitbox isn't a keyboard
I grew up playing fighting games on a keyboard because I never had money to buy a console so I only had emulators and a computer keyboard.
When I became an adult with a job I got consoles and discovered what gamepads and arcade sticks were for fighting games. I never understood why someone would prefer arcade sticks or control pads to a keyboard. The motions necessary require so much less effort and are so much more precise on a keyboard than with an arcade stick.
Loving the Hitbox and I'm glad someone did it because I was about to do it for myself. I'm intending to reverse it, though. Putting UDLR on the right side and button the buttons on the other side to match more with how I play on a keyboard.
This is what I'm doing too. Back then, the fgc laughed at keyboard warriors, esp during the launch of vanilla SFIV. Now look at the hitbox, which is just a glorified keyboard. I'll stick with mechanical keyboards and use them in tournaments.
Lmfao these videos getting recommended again because of the new weekly fgc twitter discourses. Happens every goddamn week
lmao "are we going to let people walk into a tennis match with a baseball bat?"
To put it nicely, his argument is invalid as the hit box is designed for fighting games whereas traditional arcade sticks are also designed for fighting games. A baseball bat is designed for baseball, not fucken tennis.
hit box was made for fighting games, baseball bat was made for sports your argument is invalid
I like it even more how he is mentioning the fucked up DJHero controller.
If someone goes to a tournament with that thing and beats my ass, the only thing I'm gonna do is empty my bank account, give it all to that one guy and go kill myself because I can't bare the shame.
Would I ban the fuckin' scratch-controller? What am I fucking retarded? Hell nah...
Lol yeah, ever seen that Bruce Lee Nunchug(?) Table-Tennis video, nobody thinks that's stupid lol
Sigh, that Bruce Lee video is fake. Pretty sure it was from some Nokia commercial.
Should be banned? That's laughable. Having never used one nor do I know anyone that uses one and basing this opinion based on your video alone, that's an extreme opinion based on tradition. Tradition is that fighting games are played on sticks, anything else is unacceptable. Yet there would be no reason for this control scheme not to be implemented to an arcade unit within the coming years.Having more precise control over your inputs isn't a reason something should be banned, it's a reason for the player base to move onto the more precise control method. But because it's different to current tradition and advantageous (based on the video alone), it should be banned? I think not. Everyone should play on controller or even a keyboard in that case so it's all standard.
Aris: I bought a hitbox after seeing the Kabal shit and figured out an even easier way to chain gas blasts.
You can literally hold the jump button and double tap back, back + 1 over and over to keep gas blasts insanely close to the ground.
XXZ did projectile DPS data on the whole cast and found out that Kabal is capable of outputting 19% DPS with IAGB's. 2nd place is Sindel at 11% DPS, the only difference between Kabal and Sindel is she sacrifices an up close game to be a zoning character.
With more and more fighting games not getting arcade releases, console is quickly becoming the standard for fighters. You can preserve arcade culture as long as you want, but especially in the US most people don't care about arcades anymore. If it plugs into my console and doesn't have programmed inputs that play the game for me, it's legit. Arcade culture means nothing to someone who was never a part of it.
All those dislikes, but who know a prophecy would be made
pad works like a stick tho. so pad is acceptable. fighting games were never meant to be played on a controller were you can press left/right or up/down at the same time. because if you could you can bet they would have used hitbox style controls in the original arcades because having a cabinet with all buttons would have been cheaper to maintain and manufacture over sticks. sticks/ pad controls were used for a reason. im going to assume all mainstream console games were designed in mind to not be using left/right up/down at the same time considering all official controllers do not allow those inputs to be pressed on any d-pad at the same time.
Keep cheating amigo atpSuspect
I know this review is ancient. But I'm getting a Hitbox anyway. I went from Pad to Stick and realized there's things the stick can do easily that the pad struggles with. Hitbox is another step up.
plus, the availability of it is about the same as a typical tournament arcade stick. if you have a Madcatz TE and are familiar with modding, you can actually buy a panel to use a Hitbox layout, but you'd also have to mod the PCB to eliminate SOCD presses.
This is not only biased, but it's making a big deal out of something that was already fixed.
Official HitBoxes DO NOT ALLOW FOR SIMULTANEOUS LEFT + RIGHT (nor Up + Down). The folks at SRK Tech Talk have made sure that the firmware in the Cthulhu PCBs used in these things filters these out.
The only way for a HitBox to allow these is if it has been modified from official spec.
If you disagree with this, you can bring it up in SRK's Tech Talk.
This looks awesome, like a keyboard mod. Used to play a lot of fighting games on keyboard since 2001. The only thing I didn't like on the KB is full 360 motions.
I question the slippery slope arguments, but I respect your emphasis that it's your own opinion
Where I grew up there WERE no arcades. My only way to play any game was on a console. Some people never had consoles and only had PCs. Why should competitive fighting games be limited to a tiny demographic to preserve some tradition? I don't understand the stubborn OG mentality of being scared to death of change in the FGC.
I think the fundamental problem is that most games are not properly balanced for HitBoxes. There's just too many broken tactics that are impossible on stick but trivial on a HitBox.
redvenomweb but they're also possible on a controller with a dpad...
MrScottyTay Sorry, let me rephrase: they are not literally impossible on stick, just ridiculously difficult (and likewise for dpad). However, Hitbox makes them easy.
I am referring to things like halfscreen instant double-jump overheads with UMVC3 Strider.
redvenomweb *wooosh* right over my head with them terms
Yeah that's probably the only case that can really be made against hitbox, but because it's not impossible to do on stick or pad, it's not solid enough of an argument to get hitboxes banned. Honestly it just seems like a superior controller for fighting games, but I doubt it'll ever catch on because people hate change
Sorry for the late response. In Street Fighter and other similar games, you have to stand to block most jump attacks and you can block most ground attacks while crouching. However, in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Strider Hiryu (one of the characters in the game) can do a VERY low, very fast jump attack (that leads into a big combo) from as far as half a screen away; this tactic is extremely difficult (and fairly risky) on a controller/joystick, but easy and simple on a Hitbox.
So the end result is that when you're using a Hitbox, your opponent doesn't really have time to react to attacks that must be blocked while standing or blocked while crouching. The defender basically has to guess.
Actually, this type of controller was in use back in the SFII days, and they were regularly banned. They were also banned in all Chicago tourneys back in the SC2 days.
keep crying grandpa, go back to the nursing home.
@@cartierFGC This comment is older than you are.
I repsectfully disagree. Hitbox takes time to learn and get proficient with just like a joystick. Let the player play with what they are comfortable on.
lie i used one at event 15 mins was easy also no neutral op
Sure, Aris is hardheaded as always but you guys are missing his point. It's not about making things easier. It's about making the impossible possible. The problem isn't with the control method itself but in the fact that THE GAMES WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR THIS INPUT METHOD. (of a finger per direction)
They give moves certain inputs to make sure you commit to them for enough TIME. Like having a 1 button DP would break SF w/o changing the game accordingly, this is the exact same deal with some moves.
Most consistent human ever
I like how he started out unbiased and civilized then he de-evolved into attacking what he felt was personally attacking the honor of the days of arcades gone by. But I believe this is why people love Aris.
Aris only feels cheated by people using this because he spent so much time on learning how to swirl is stick around. and this makes it obsolete. :o
And the fact that arcades machine are almost non existent now. Arcade stick are legacy controllers now. Fighting games are released on console and pc now. New generation haven't even played on a real arcade machine. Gampad, keyboard, and hit box are the future.
Ofc right when the whole controversy happens this old thing shows up
To add to the previous post. A couple guys in our VF scene picked this up and can do Perfect Giant Swings and other stuff they had difficulty doing on a stick. Now they can do it, it opened up more options to them, however because it's VF, you can shut down those new options that are opened up, making this thing just another device to use for fighting games. Now it comes down to preference of controller, nothing really changed.
now that i think about it, the 12 buttons thing was dumb, because the hitbox isn't adding buttons, it's re-arraging the standard setup, however, it still should be banned based on that alteration. no other player has that directional setup. so the fg community could just make a rule that says that any device used to compete must have the standard button setup or else it's banned.
I imagine it would be ridiculous with SF as well.
Before 3sOE came out, I was playing 3s on GGPO using my keyboard. Using WASD as my movement keys, I could drum out semicircle movements (ie Dudley's Machine Gun Blow) and most double quartercircle supers, almost instantly.
Most notably, Ibuki's Kasumi Suzaku can be pulled off almost as soon as you jump off the ground. No one expects that shit.
Lol imagine someone playing Eddy Gordo on a DDR mat, that would be hilarious.
Aris should do flesh light reviews
Seems like people don't know what an opinion is especially what he has to say at the end....
Nope, it's not the same thing. It's about how the stick/pad treats the input. I checked up on it and it seems the Hitbox is supposed to interpret: L + R = Neutral; U + D = Up. Thta is fine. With self-made stickless arcade sticks (or by modding the Hitbox) you can make it so that L + R is actually L + R and U + D = U + D. The former would give you perfect guard in MvC3 and the latter would let you block high and low at the same time in Soul Calibur 5. The 360/PS3 pads won't let you do that.
The hitbox also has a far higher learning curve than using pad or stick. Pad you learn instantly, and stick doesn't take as long. The hitbox feels totally different than playing on either of those and you basically have to learn the game again. It's great when you do though. So pad or stick scrubs, stop hating and save up some money and buy one or shut up.
So because the Hitbox is more efficient than the norm it's unfair? How does new technology come about? How does progress in gaming happen?
I don't know what's funnier. Scrubs getting butthurt for being called hitbox-using bitches, or pros getting butthurt because they've been using sticks forever and now they're obsolete.
the most funny thing is none of people who dislike this video are good enough for competitive tournament anyway, no matter they using hitbox or not lol
I can do the same thing on a keyboard. Your argument is invalid.
i have a hitbox and multiple types of gaming keyboards. Hit bot is much better then keyboard lol
what's the difference?
jo hu
1.Hitbox has more natural positions on the buttons so you will never mess up and press the wrong thing.
2. Arcade buttons feel better
3. You can drum and piano on a hitbox
i use keyboard from time to time as a hitbox, with similar up down left right button positioning and kicks and punches too... i find it easier than a pad (yeh im using a xbox pad, i kno not the best) but there are some moves which are harder than pad, like kings move when he grabs ur legs swings u arnd and arnd and lets u go, that move on hitbox like positioning is really difficult, idk why, on pad is easier. can u help me solve why is it like that? and also moves similar in movement of player like the kazuya's ..... down - diagonal right down - right + punch (when the opponent goes in the air)
I want to get one of these, how / where do I get one?
>Plagiarism
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
And once again, what makes you so special that you know what they're all going to want?
I totally agree it should be banned. And for those of you that don't think so imagine if it was embraced by the FGC? It would become the standard for tournaments because anyone not using it wouldn't stand a chance. And at that point is it even fun to play anymore? People should be able to play the way they want to not be forced into adopting an unorthadox method. IMO playing a fighting game without a stick is like going to the movies without popcorn it's just not the same without it.
I wonder if he still feels that way.
Stating a device is broken because it's too accurate is not a valid reason to put it behind the line of bannable devices. Often the things in question are still possible and often not even intended in the original stages of development. This just allows the user to have much better control, you still have player error and this device has it's own issues of inputs. Half circles on this thing are much harder than on a stick for example.
The big “up” button was designed to be a jump button that’s easy to press with either hand. It looks weird but makes sense.
And you deleted your comment, but I got an email notification about it anyway:
For anyone curious this is what he had to say in response.
"And this is the exact reason why Japan and Asia will ALWAYS dominate America."
Funny how Americans welcome foreigners in to the scene quite openly but they tend to be quite hostile towards us.
Slide back into forward. B,DB,D,DF,F. Hold back and press down for down-back, hold down and hit forward for down forward. Don't let go of the previous button until you contact the next one.
this has probably been answered already, but the up button is there because you press down more often then up.
But then there's CIRCLE GATES, smaller than stock RESTRICTOR Plates you can put on your stick that makes the "throw" as little as possible. So you see, your argument gets mute with (tournament legal) mods to the standard stick that are already available as it is. In the end, its left hand, right hand, and the ability to coordinate the both in a superior reactionary way that makes you the best. All these aids I mentioned only get you so far.
PC Street Fighter player here.
I use regular arcade sticks but Hit Box is just like a keyboard.
It was a little while before I could get my sticks together and I used a mechanical keyboard.
It didn't take me long to realize that WASD was absolutely terrible and I eventually bound up to space, finding I could play pretty well. Much better than a pad.
This is just the relevant keyboard keys, replaced with Sanwa arcade buttons in an ergonomic arrangement.
As such, I don't find it so innovative.
The hitbox doesn't "play the game" for you. The inputs are all still manual and every circuitboard will have a set movement in an overlap whether it's L+R= N, L, or R. People who can't even do a half circle aren't even worth considering. It isn't that hard. Not to mention you'll get neutral even if you don't want to at times (KOF kaiser wave motions, or certain back forward motions). People need to stop finding reasons to hate it. By that logic plinking is bad since it doubles your inputs.
How come your hands got less hairy now?
Excellent review, Aris. I think people are missing the point. Regardless of whether or not the device is actually giving an unfair advantage, players, community and tourney organizers need to pay attention to these types of things and decide about where to draw the line. Evolution of devices is wonderful. I'm sure we all agree players should be welcome to any device they can perform their best with. But not if it gives an unfair advantage.
wrong. because left+right = neutral, it does NOT allow for sloppy 180/360 attacks. i don't even know how you drew that conclusion. also, you're not looking at WHY they made left+right = neutral. in games like SF, leaving it as a simultaneous input instead of making it neutral could allow you to block in both directions, which would be illegal when it comes to controller use.
the Hitbox doesn't do anything for you. it just makes input more accurate. therefore, it shouldn't be banned.
well when fighting games are released on PC's you cant ban the controller that comes with a PC (keyboard), and that thing is basically a keyboard, same argument as not banning pads
Eh the points he touches on about this are valid, and I agree. I really want one of these, but as far as execution goes, it definitely gives you an unfair advantage. a Standing 720 is easier on a hitbox than it is on a arcade stick. Also all of the shortcuts on SF4/SFxT are easier on hitboxes than they are on arcade stick. I will admit he was hating pretty hard in the end, but from my understanding, he went in on it unbiased in terms of pros and cons go.
I kinda like the compact size of the original Hitbox. Makes it easy to pack into a bag and travel places
You can get a similar experience by building one with an enclosure from All Fight Sticks.
Don't really agree with his conclusion (in the sense that I have no opinion whatsoever on competitive gaming regulations), but you're spot on with your keyboard comparison. Back in the DOS days and even on my C64, I used to play fighting games with this sort of "button control" instead of a stick all the time.
It must either become a standard or be banned from tournament play.
I felt that way since day 1, glad to see someone notable agrees with me.
I don't know specifics of how well arcades do in every country so I'm not going to argue. Thing is, many parts of the world don't have influence on the US, and fact of the matter is tournaments aren't played on cabinets, they're played on consoles, so consoles are the standard.
Like I said, it's fine that you want to keep the arcade feel, I'm not trying to get everyone to play on a Hit Box, preference is what's important, but arcade isn't the standard and controllers shouldn't be judged by it.
hehe I like how this started as a review and then straight turned into ban hitbox
I'm not gonna scour the internet to prove a point... Look if you've been playing sf as long as you say you have you'd know that plinking aside you can only have 1 input per frame. Doing 720's with a hitbox you don't have to hit the diagonals meaning you can start your grab that many frames faster. You can't do that on a stick it's impossible to skip those directions. That's makes hitboxing not just a different input method anymore that's a clear advantage.
I own a hitbox and I don't think it should be banned. My reasoning is that while some things are easier, others are much harder. It's really, really difficult to do 360s or 720s in a game that isn't sf4 (because it's so lenient). Tiger knees, chicken wing/hooligan, and half circles are significantly harder. General movement is harder (it's less intuitive). However, I will admit that it's easier to instant charge, KOF short hop, and DP on this thing. Overall it's not so OP it needs banning.
I really hate that it takes at least a year of practicing before you can master a decent level of execution in Tekken. I guess I'mma buy the hitbox soon
It will take a long time no matter what. I play on all controllers and they all have there ups and downs. Hitbox is great at just frames like otgf(and even that isnt easy and effortless to do consistently) but anything involving half circles is much much harder. The idea that hitboxes offer a huge advantage is bullshit, if it were true you would see hitbox users winning tournaments left and right but there are almost none who even use one. And if you look at Evo Japan then you will understand that pros have no issue switching to what will win. No controller is the best, so if you want to hitbox to make execution effortless it's not going to happen. Trust me I own them all, it's all about preference.
The problem that arises with what you guys are saying is that as the levels of skill rises with the players, the type of peripheral being used matters less and less to the point of it being a non-issue. Doing impossible feats at such a high level of gameplay becomes a near impossibility for many people. A Hit Box will not automatically make you a godlike FG player.
After all, the best aren't worried about what you're using to win, they want to be number 1 regardless.
10 year later, aris still talk about this huh
Hitbox, Arcade Stick or Pad...at the end of the day you're all free
I absolutely agree with this, I used one the other day and played against someone using one. it was ridiculous and a real eye opener of the posibilities that open up with this thing, this either has to be banned, or anyone who wants to compete has to get one. This won't turn bad players good, but it absolutely gives a significant advantage, these motions were designed with the limitations of a joystick in mind, a gamepad has the same limitations and should also be allowed.
This stick is crazy overpowered. It literally gives you an advantage impossible from a stick or pad. In UMvC3 you can hold down-back and up and you'll bunny hop well crouching when you land. Usually you can hit a opponent when they land or during their jump frames, but not with this stick. Also it creates option selects against characters like Zangief, if they attack you, you block, if they go for a grab you jump. Totally broken.
We can either ban them OR wait until they drop in price and get more popular , that way with easier execution we can see more people pull of difficult stuff and the games will become more competitive .
Using a hitbox at a high level can cut down on input time and makes it more precise. The stick is more precise than the pad, so what's the difference? It's a keyboard. Also to someone else's comment SOCD doesn't allow sloppy 360's and 180's to work because you'd just get neutral. 180's and 360's require proper technique.
I disagree on several points, but I am tired of getting a blue face over it. If was all true and easy as you say, then I still would happily keep playing Hit Box. We have enough "Qudans" in the world destroying their hands for the amusement of others using arcade stick and pad. And if nothing else it should be allowed for the handicapped. The Hit Boxes small layout opens the door for one handed people to be able play fighting games. Disrespect me or not I am a satisfied Hit Box customer.
@TheSoliquidus Actually the input is not a left+right since those type of inputs are not allowed on most emulators. The input is actually Fwd, Back, Down + fwd(or some weird combination) at a lightning fast pace that is impossible on stick or pad.
Actually the block both ways thing was an issue with HitBox imitations/hacks.
The proper PCB used on the Hitbox will not register both left and right at the same time.
If you ask for source, I'm afraid I can't provide it, a Hitbox staff member who frequently posts on 4chan talked about this.
Like you said recently; the governing body should be the game itself. This might be something the developers should take into consideration, or not.
I keep hearing the comparison to pads and how you cant do things like that on pad but you can? Triple and double inputs are still a button vs having to return to neutral on a stick no?
i kind of like the hit box, but honestly i cant wait to see someone play a fighting game with a turntable. anyways, this is the execution versus decision making skill argument. an argument for the ages.
@bludika Yes, I was referring to Tekken. If you check out Aris' older vids he has one where he compares a stick to a pad and he talks some about the difficulty back-dash canceling on certain sides of the screen with stick. The fact you find it easier to do on a stick just reinforces my point that the difficulty or ease of use to do things with different peripherals is subjective to the one playing, and you something shouldn't be banned because of someone else's opinion.
There are lots of pad tekken players mainly because, until SF4 was released, finding arcade sticks was not easy and they were in low supply. Now that there is higher demand and supply for arcade sticks, they are far more prevalent in all levels of play, and the Tekken (and 3D fighter community in general) in the West is evolving.
A lot of people getting turnt on an old ass review lol. Currently a pad player but if I keep up this Tekken life the hitbox will see me eventually. Have 20+ years of PC gaming under my belt, there is nothing less scary than transitioning to a keyboard style fight controller, the $200 is far more frightening.
I can see your point bro. I don't agree with you but I can see your point.
I understand what he mean's by cheating. When I saw the hitbox, I immediately understood that it had a lot of advantages over a arcade stick. And people who disagrees have got to be blind. I think the hitbox gives you godlike execution.It probably won't be banned from tournaments anytime soon so you should just use one
I know this comment is late Aris, but the thing that I think you're failing to recognize is that you can't be disappointed with progress. If game designers want to make more ridiculous QCF, QCB, Double Hit commands, then maybe it's time they made the inputs simpler, and the players more accountable for playing the game instead of spamming complex inputs. I physically modified my stick to get Siegfried's iagA in SCV 90% of the time. Why should an input be so physically hard?
Cheap? Hit Box is just applying keyboard into a form of a fightstick. It's exactly like what thienfoil said. You do realize stick allows you to move around in more fluid motion since you are able to navigate much better with a stick then pressing buttons. Having able to pull off executions are not everything in fighting games. There are pros and cons for everything, and those pros and cons can differ by the users.
To further explain, if you think turbo isn't manual, then let tap movement and not hold left/right keys, cause HOLDING and AUTO MOVING FOR A LONG DISTANT is done by a computer and not manual =/
none of the buttons are programmed inputs. You STILL have to do the inputs by yourself. Now, the input SPEED is yes, gone alot faster because the direction buttons are like your attack buttons now. So what? Shortcuts and customized button settings are all legal in tourneys now, so this can too IMO.
i don't know whats wrong with people against this device?
as long as the player have to hit every button manually, i think it's fine!
real skill is what happens in the game match..
having a new controller that helps the player to play their tactics more precise is welcomed.. why we should Stop at arcade stick? let innovations be made..
i think the up button being at the bottom is actually smart design, since im a pc gamer, weve been accustomed to WASD controls. now obviously if you want the best inputs possible, youd like to use all four buttons at a time, and we also use the spacebar for jump...which just so happens to be up in fighting games