It's frustrating as an atheist that a lot of people think you are a free agent and they try to recruit you to their religion. If i was Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Mormon they would accept it and not say a word, but because I'm atheist some people try and convince you their god is real. I can fully understand why Tim reacted to Sam like this and made this song. Everyone can believe whatever they want to believe, but don't go around giving unsolicited religious sales pitches to other people, especially when the "evidence" is something like this
When I was younger, I used to believe in God. I'd pray, read the Bible, go to church, but one day when I was 12 my best friend's dad died of cancer. 1 week later my brother got diagnosed with cancer. That was the day I accepted that, as far as I'm concerned, there is no god. 2 of the best people I know no only having that awful disease, but losing one of them (my brother was fortunate enough to have it diagnosed early and cured) no god would do that to us. I once bumped in to the priest from my old church some 5 years later. Nice chap, asked what happened and tried to almost recruit me back to the religion. He wouldn't accept my belief (or lack thereof) and that just got me pissed off. I had to walk away. Believe what you want but never try shove it down the throat of others
Exactly. Stuff like that is why, even though I’m an atheist who finds conversations about religion very interesting, I try to never bring it up if religious people aren’t advertising their beliefs and shoving it in people’s faces. Don’t walk up to people and shove your unsupported beliefs at them (or your supported ones if you know it’s gonna cause problems, really), and if you do, you best be genuinely willing to 1 be disagreed with and 2 leave it if someone says they’re not interested in talking about it.
I also really dislike the "you must have some kind of trauma/be upset with god" assumption. Skepticism isn't a result of pain, it's a result of questioning the tales other humans tell.
There is no Sam. It's a story. A really, really good story. He is making a point: that people believe things on the flimsiest of evidence despite mountains of contradictory evidence.
It's 100% petty, and hilarious for it. Having the critical thinking skills allows him to understand the story is bullshit. But it's only when he's powered by pettiness that he gets a whole orchestra to say it. Lmao!
I was surprised about the assumption that Tim would be bitter. To me he seems like one of the least bitter people in this world. He is promoting kindness, happiness, appreciation of the wonders of this world, healthy relationships, and awereness of hypocrates who can hurt you. He has beautiful and honest love songs to his wife of a few decades on his newest album which is a little more serious one. I can't find the bitterness from any of his words.
It's a defensive mechanism that a lot of religious people fall back to. Instead of countering the point made by logically assessing the argument being made, they dismiss it as just someone's emotional immaturity, making them seem more sophisticated.
@@Ironoclasty He does seem to be bitter towards Sam though. Onision actually had a similar logic. God does not exist because this and this is happening so why God would do anything for some one random person.
@@gandalainsley6467 I'm not familiar with Onision's outlook on religion (or anything else really). But, you're just making my point for me though. Instead of taking a position on why Onision's statement isn't supportable, You simply state (also without support) that he said "X." Just because someone files other people's statements into predetermined categories doesn't make them justified in dismissing the claim.
@@Ironoclasty You won't like my answer. From his standpoint it makes sense. From mine it doesn't because i have experienced and seen that God is real. Its one of those things where you have to experience it yourself to believe. Its like with aliens.(yes they are real. Well their ship is(it also could be Russians with a new technology that looks like a cartoon Ufo which spins like a beyblade)and it does not just float in the air. Upper and middle parts spin in opposite directions like propellers so it does makes sense why it looks like its just floating in the air to some people who have seen it ) You will be in denial until you see them yourself. I don't know if God is showing me these things because i find them not a big deal or because i already find world boring and i am okay with dying at 24. Maybe it could be a different reason. Also i know how from your stand point this sounds. I don't expect you to believe any of this.
Well I think Tim might be bitter hearing religious arguments like this condoning Gods kindness when, if there’s evidence of anything, it’s that God is not kind. I am an atheist like Tim and completely adore him, and I’m constantly frustrated with the out look that God is great when he can’t fix our most pressing painful sad circumstances but can help someone find the perfect f’ing parking space. If God is so vast, he shouldn’t be so incredibly finite. I’m not mad at Christians, I was one, I understand what they think they are doing, and I think the majority of them are good people, but my frustration lies with ignoring evidence to preserve faith, which feels very dangerous to me. Also I think we might be able to better tackle these big issues if we would stop assuming God is going to step in, or that it’s in his hands, or part of his twisted plan to let children starve to death. “God works in mysterious ways” is man’s cop out.
Hi, atheist here. To me this song is a pretty fresh take on religion criticism. I see plenty of “wow you believe in a man in the sky, you’re so dumb” arguments which are particularly condescending. This was the first time I saw “ok let’s pretend god is real based on what you’re saying, he’s pretty small based on what you’re telling me.” Tim is a very very kind man but he does love punching up at power institutions and religion is his favorite target. I love this song.
Tim was raised without religion. It's not bitterness that's colouring his views. He just can't use faith as the basis for belief in anything. He doesn't believe the christian god exists in the same way that (I'm assuming) you don't believe in Thor, or Apollo, or Vishnu, or Pluto, or...
I don't think Tim made this song because he was upset at Sam for having faith in something Tim doesn't believe in. I think he made this song because he was upset that Sam insisted this event was iron-clad proof that the thing he had faith in is real and simply couldn't understand how Tim could feel any other way.
@@noracola5285 I think he might be a bit upset about how the religious right, most glaringly in the US but also the world over, are starting to try, once again, to force their beliefs onto society as a whole by taking over governments and passing new regressive laws ( laws that they then often only want applied to those they see as "other", and of course beneath themselves, but never actually applied to themselves or their loved ones), and sees mass belief of faith in religion as a harm to society in an increasing manner again.
One of the strongest messages in the song for me is....Sam is saying that his mum's cataract healing was a miracle from God that shows how benevolent he is...and Tim is essentially saying, "think of all the people in the world right now, praying because they're starving, or dying or horrible diseases, or because their situation is so grim and hopeless....and God does nothing about THEM...but you're coming up to me preaching about your mums cataracts???"
The fact that this song brought on like a 15 minute conversation about what it means to be a good person is no better example of why Tim Minchin is a modern day philosopher
“Take a break from giving babies malaria” is the key to the song for me. Getting passed the arrogance of imagining that the Creator of the Universe gives a poop about your health issues, He seems to be unbothered about the swathes of afflicted children he also creates, which suggests He’s at least a little bit of a hypocrite. Great reaction, guys.
Human ego knows no boundaries, which is completely ironic, because the primary message of Christianity's main example was to practice humility. But Christians famously tell everyone who'll give them the vaguest attention how a deity responsible for creating the entire universe would care about what is the equivalent of less than a tiny particle in an atom. Such a colossal entity would care no more about the humans that briefly walk under a star in a tiny galaxy on the edge of the cosmos than we care about the brief life of an undiscovered and dying bacteria on the other side of our planet. It is arrogance on parade to believe such a thing.
I have to disagree with the petty label. Assuming the story he told was accurate, he was completely minding his business when this asshat went out of his way to isolate him and speak to him in an extremely condescending manner. All he did was respond with an amazing diss track. Sam should have kept his mouth shut.
I doubt even Tim would disagree that this song was petty as hell. Pettiness isn't when you're in the wrong. It's when you're right and take your reaction further than it requires.
Tim said he had the tendency to mock. So I'm sure Sam was justified to an extent in his defence of his belief. It's the assertion that Tim had a closed mind or hadn't thought it trough that would have been the driver for this song. What Tim imagined religious types think of him.
I feel that Tim’s angle on this one was centered around the “evidence”. He told Sam the reason he didn’t, and couldn’t, believe in god is because he lacked evidence. And Sam’s response was one similar to many Christians, he witness what he perceived to be a miracle. So Tim is saying, there’s so many logical and scientific reasons for what happened that have absolutely nothing to do with it being a miracle. The diagnosis could’ve have been wrong to begin with (something that happens more often than we think), she could have gone into remission, etc. So while Sam is trying to use this story as evidence, Tim still can’t see how that could be considered definitive proof of an omnipotent being when nothing else adds up. He can’t believe that one specific religious sect happened to be prayed to the right god, and at that, the right version of that god, and instead of dealing with arguably more serious and devastating problems in the world, god is too busy fixing cataracts and healing pets or whatever. As an atheist, I agree with Tim here. There’s just too much for me to ignore. And it’s not all just human flaws, like a lot of Christian’s will try to pass off as the reason for inconsistency in religion. So for that reason, I don’t see religion as an explanation for how and why we’re here. However, I have no problem with people having a religion. Aside from the extremists and the passive practicers (the ones that only go to church on Christmas, etc) I actually think religion can be a good thing for people. While I don’t believe in the stories or practices, the overarching message of most religion is to be the best human you can be and to care for others. And for many people, religion is a way to get through dark times. Some people need something higher than themselves to turn to and lead them back to a better place mentally and physically. So if religion can be that for people, whether it’s true or not, I’m happy it exists for them. But for me, that’s all religion is. And I think Tim put it perfectly.
Meanwhile, and especially these days, I have a way too hard time overlooking or ever tolerating the fascist politics and cultures that christian people and institutions are promoting to find it in myself to regard christianity as anything but bad... I mean, christianity's entire legacy is one defined by the grooming of children (while continuing to spin that moral panic myth that LGBT-people are the ones doing that); institutionalized paedophilia; an ever-present systemic protection of paedophiles by their heavenly father's institutions; psychological abuse via guilt-tripping and accusations of "sins" and "imperfection"; systemic brainwashing, sexual abuse and exploitation, especially of people with mental illnesses, disabilities and disorders; the Jesus-and-god-approved institution of slavery (which is still alive and kicking thanks to the 13th Amendment combined with for-profit prisons); a historical record of systemic bigotry of various kinds, mostly homophobia and transphobia but let's not forget about all of the sexism, racism and the historic record of supporting militant supremacist groups; consistent support of the worst kinds of political ideologues that humanity can muster (from Hitler to Drumpf) and equally consistent refusals to oppose those kinda people with the unity and resources christians and their organized religions have at their disposal; just about the entirety of the anti-abortion movement in all its misogynistic disgrace; the war on science and intellectualism; conservatism; authoritarianism and anti-democratic movements aimed towards instating a theocratic tyranny and the worship of a being that I cannot regard in any more flattering terms than "psychopathic monster."
The sad fact is that in a few locations, and very often in places of notable inequality religion can become a tool for those seeking political/social traction and thus exploitation. The USA in its religiosity, compared with other (developed) OECD countries, is a very substantial outlier. It has the highest inequality with its sky high GINI coefficient, and a free market approach to religion, spawning many new variants, claiming better healing properties and better (after-) life insurance coverage. This environment, of a divided nation of the poorest needing religious support to get through the day and the richer needing religious excuses (excluded groups... it'll get fixed later,... God loves exactly obedient straight white hard workers like ME!) as to why they need not care so much, allows both to coexist and substantial political and social progress to be thwarted. De and Dre's discussion here is excellent and honourable but they they speak with the goggles of American experience, an environment with religion as the overwhelming default position (2009 Gallup USA 67% religion is important.) For both Tim and I, we experienced very little religion (Australia 33%, UK 25%). We are default godless, and science, evolution and neuroscience etc. fill all those god-gap questions, not only well, but with predictive heft. The mistake of most Americans (including atheist) is to misunderstand godlessness as some necessary rejection of a god, often provoked by some life dissatisfaction. Nope, once it no longer permeates most childhood experience when thinking habits are made mostly for life, there is little/nothing to reject, and precious little gap (these days) needing to be filled.
@@fliprim yea I hear what you’re saying. There’s definitely some of that here, too. I went to a catholic high school (my parents chose it for the level of education, we were Protestant growing up.) But my school fully embraced science and evolution. I remember my chemistry teacher having a poster on her wall that said “there was a Big Bang, and God saw that it was good”. And it stuck out to me cause it was kinda the first time I saw those two concepts attempting to support each other. While they embraced the science and didn’t see it disproving religion, I still never heard people trying to connect the two. It always felt like two separate discussions. But I think there’s a lot more people here that thing that way, they’re just not the loudest group, and I’m sure they are far from the minority. I actually find it surprising that Christian’s here wouldn’t jump on that train to be honest, tho. Cause while science does help explain how things happen, nature can be so mind boggling. You’d think they’d use things like evolution and the Big Bang to prove that god does exist. It wouldn’t be hard to believe that the Big Bang was a result of god’s power. Or that evolution was what god intended. As a teen I didn’t really understand why so many people resisted that concept. But what I think it honestly comes down to is faith. There’s a lot of religious people who claim to have faith and truly believe in something. But they don’t fully understand or have all the answers. So when they’re unsure, instead of simply saying they don’t know they rely on the age old “god works in mysterious ways” or “thy will be done” nonsense. And it eventually turns defensive. They’re afraid that because they don’t have all the answers it means that their faith is in jeopardy or others may judge them for not having unconditional faith. So they turn the tables and try to make it seem that asking any questions at all is to question god. And that’s how so many of them live now. So many of the questions I asked during Sunday school or religion class just felt like cop out answers. I think that more than anything is what made me question what they taught me. It wasn’t even that I had a hard time believing in an invisible man in the sky. It was the way people shied away from the hard questions, the questions that mattered most. I really think that’s how we’ve ended up in this predicament (and of course politics drive a lot of it cause it helps them keep control and manipulate the public.) If you can’t question religion, you can only follow it blindly. And that’s how the Joel Olsteens of the world get away with what they do; they prey on the desperate and keep their support through brainwashing people to believe god will bless them or heal them in return for their undying faith. Oh, and half their rent money. It was far easier to believe in religion before I watched it (and politics) destroy my country. I don’t even recognize this place anymore. And it’s really disheartening.
@@moni13000 Thank you for sharing your experience. It is so helpful hearing these accounts to understand how and why folk think what they do. In the UK my childhood (1960s) had no religious experience intended for me personally to follow. Religion was a private affair. As far as I know none of my school chums attended church. Visiting at home no hint of religion on the wall or in parental behaviours. Yes we sang old songs (hymns) in the morning at school but these seemed out of some nostalgic tradition. Never at home or at school was I presented with anything other than era-appropriate science. I only encountered folk clearly affected by religion, as a young adult teaching at college in the 1970s, when I encountered Americans first hand. My mind was blown by the blocked-off-ness of my first Creationist student. No matter how I tried to engage I found some mental roadblock, clearly put their by another. This seemed like an act of malice, destroying a perfectly good mind. This as much as anything fuelled a rather angry surge of atheism in my later life, calmed by recollections of a neighbour and some new friends. My one religious encounter as a child was my friend's dad a Quaker by the name of Fox, possibly the kindest man I ever encountered (after my own dad). A history lecturer his library was wonderful. He let me browse to my hearts content. My dad talked science and music and their wonders and Mr Fox talked literature and art, both seemingly without borders. UK Quakers (more so than their rather pious American counterparts) understand that we are to be the moral authors, that we have ALL been given the wit and wisdom to do the job and that it is in fact our main job. Heaven is to be built here and from now on by our own hand. Dogma is to be guarded against, priests and shamans shunned and scripture leavened with wise writings from wherever they can be found. Their moral track record in the UK is exemplary. This was a religion mandating moral engagement and to that end acquiring wisdom. In later life I had religious friends, very good friends, but for the life of me I could never discern religiosity affecting our moral or sciencey deliberations over a pint of beer. They seemed like Richard Fox. I asked one why was he Roman Catholic? Why not a Quaker? His answer, "My wife, and her family..." "Ah!...Your round." Religion will sublime away with the generations into decency. It persists because its dogmas are perpetually restoked by those who profit from it. It is the priest and shamans that we must reserve our compassionate ire for. And with less compassion for politicians who use the priests and their manipulative product.
As an atheist who newer was exposed to any religious indoctrination I learn mush to see how they protect their fath from reality without even notice all the oroblems in the world created by the perfect, all knowing, loving and all powerful God. They can't understand that it's just brainwashing of children so they fit in to the local cult. If they where born somewhere else, their faith had been very different. They speculate why atheist have to be so angry and not respect all the different religions but never think why they believe in stories they never read and why they believe in just that version.
It's interesting how they try to discredit Tim by painting him as someone traumatized and misguided. Tim merely posses enough critical thinking skills to question why a supposedly loving god causes suffering and death to so many (including babies) as part of his grand plan. He also questions whether there is is a more logical reasons for things rather than jumping to conclusions and using blind faith as guidance.
@@FM-qm5xs That's unfortunately what practically all religious people think about those that walk away from faith because it's what they were taught. They just can't imagine that someone could possibly think differently from them without some kind of traumatic experience. So sad.
He can’t let it be simple? Most of the alternative possible explanations he puts forward in the song ARE simpler. I wouldn’t exactly call an omnipotent being who expects to be worshipped -but also micromanages the orgasms of billions, as a for instance - a simple explanation. Of anything lol
Exactly. I think that a lot of the "but what about..." arguments you get from believers boils down to this. The idea that an all powerful deity is behind it is the most complicated, unlikely explanation you could possibly come up with. And then act like you're the one reaching when you offer much simpler explanations. It's amazing.
Yes, I get what you mean. I struggle to micromanage my colonists' jobs and residence preferences in Surviving Mars, so I can only imagine how God would feel, if he were to exist. There's always someone who starts to decline in sanity or comfort, it's a nightmare....
I think Tim's issue is that Sam obviously wanted Tim to change his beliefs. He wasn't there to share ideas or have a genuine discussion, he felt Tim was wrong and wanted him to know it, even though Tim never asked. Tim has mentioned a million times that he has no issue with people that believe in God, only those that use their belief to harm others and let's face it, there has been a lot of that!
I have always felt that despite the relatively calm and plain intro that Tim gives to this song - the actual way Sam approached and tried to inform Tim must have been a lot more heavy handed and unpleasant. Or Sam was like the 5,000th person to try and do this to Tim. I would think if Sam was just giving a calm and measured conversation about faith there would not be this song. Making a song is a lot of work and you'd have to be pretty miffed to do it.
@@sociallyferal4237 Not really. I've written plenty of songs just for a laugh or because I had an idea I liked & if you're committed to it, no amount of work will dissuade you from completing it. It's not beyond the imagination to suppose the story with Sam was entirely invented, just to set up the song as a joke.
"I'm a big fan of yours, Tim! Now, let me completely change who you are!" I don't think people who hold religious beliefs understand when they are trying to proselytize. It's not like switching brands of baking soda. It's completely upending one's understanding of the universe. It's adding the existence of magic and spirits and demons and incantations. It would be no different than suddenly receiving an acceptance letter to Hogwarts.
I get exactly what he’s saying, my daughter had leukaemia at 3 years old, we were very lucky she survived many didn’t!! But it certainly wasn’t because their families didn’t pray hard enough!!! We should be asking why so many children all over the world have to suffer & die, without the chance of food never mind medicines???
I was raised in a Catholic Convent. Stolen Generation Aboriginal Australian taken at 2.5 years. I loved my early years there and was deeply instilled in the rituals and teachings of their religion. It was my only life. I am now 56 years old. Im do not believe in an omnipresent God as such but even as a kid, when the Nuns said God is everywhere, I looked for it. What I became to understand was the potential for compassion, morals and goodwill is everywhere. In all of us. As a child I figured that we are all capable of being 'God', in our everyday lives. Being loving, compassionate to our fellow humans and nature. We either choose good or not. So yes I thank my religious upbringing for forging my moral compass as Ive applied it with merit in my life, while not believing in a God or following a religion. My life is simple and rewarding that way.
As an atheist, Tim is offended that churches get tax exemption, and the systematic abuse of children by many faiths. You should check out "White wine in the Sun", one of his "serious" and touching songs. For many Aussies, it is their number one Christmas songs.
As I understand it, the main idea of the song is how incredibly self-centered many religious people tend to be. They claim that the creator of the universe cares about their personal issues while not giving a flying f about other people suffering horribly. And it's ironic that at the same time these people call their faith humble. Tim just addresses this disgustingly self-obsessed view of the world.
I'm an atheist. And this song makes so sense. I respect people's feelings and beliefs. Mine are mine. Tim made my favourite quote. That Faith is the denial of observation to maintain belief.
When you asked if it was necessary for Tim to approach Sam's beliefs like this, I think it was (and those intelligent lyrics - wow!). If Tim made it a habit to go up to openly religious people and tell them they are wrong because of A,B, C, then those people would have a right to talk about Tim to their congregation as an example of a non-believer. If you pull Tim out of a fun situation to try to convince him that he's wrong and you're right, then I think you're fair game! Imagine having the talent to go home and write a song like this! It's sooooo good!
Sam didn't want to just share his experience or love of god. His intention was entirely an attempt to "gotcha" Tim Minchin and somehow prove Tim wrong and himself right. Tim never asked, Sam came up and cornered him and then wouldn't accept Tim's answer.
Tim also hits home with me in that through out the ages...there have been SO MANY gods that different peoples have believed in and has given the sheep, comfort, and the shepherds, power! The only commonality between the peoples is that they have created their gods in their own image! It is just wholly sad that folks can't see this, pun intended! Thank you for another awesome video!
I think he's sarcastically pointing out that anecdotal evidence of events are often wrong. Sam applied his own confirmation bias to the incident of the prayers and the healing of Sam's mom's eye without doing any other investigation into the phenomenon. It is likely that, if this story is true, Sam has made a false correlation linking the prayer and the healing of the eye, rather than it being because of some other undiscovered cure, or wrong diagnosis.
If you guys are looking for the softer, more tender and heartwarming side of Tim's music, check out "White Wine in the Sun," which could be (but isn't, to be clear) subtitled "Why an Atheist Still Likes Christmas, despite...." I've seen a number of Aussie commenters say this song is considered Australia's unofficial Christmas song, and is a staple at Xmas time on radio, etc. there at that time of year. A few relatively mild (for Tim lol) jabs at religious institutions at the beginning aside, the second half of the song focusing on family getting together to celebrate will bring tears to your eyes, money back guaranteed. To explain the title by the way, December is in the middle of summer in Australia. I know you guys would figure it out eventually, but i know I was confused the first time I listened to this song so, heads up.
Was out of the country for a bit so missed this dropping, but glad you guys reacted to it! So a bit of the reason why this resonates so strongly for me is because what actually turned me into an atheist was one summer when I was a kid I actually decided to sit down and read the Bible. All of it. In order. When you actually read it with the full context like that. . . It just felt so similar to every other mythology I'd ever read. There's even parts that seemed to be damn near plagerised from the Egyptians. And quite frankly, it's very clearly written by a bunch of different people who have very different ideas. Even in the new testament some of the books (from different people) contradict each other. So at the end of the day, the question really becomes, why do I believe these people I've never met, versus any other religion? They have no more evidence backing their claims and their book has just as much murder, incest, rape as the Greeks, or the Vikings did. What's the reason I believe in this religion rather than Hinduism? And the answer is, because I was raised to. Why was I raised to? Well, half of my ancestors are English, who were converted to Christianity by the sword. The other half were slaves, who were forced to convert by their masters. And now I believe in that religion because it was passed down from there, versus my African ancestors who had their own gods, and the English tribes who had their own gods. . . So the reason it's this God boils down to his believers were better armed? Not exactly convincing. So then I started analyzing the likelihood of various religions and at the end of the day, every single one eventually boils down to the same problem. It always boils down to some dude saying, "trust me." The beings are never visible, but there are always grave consequences if you choose not to believe in them. They never are reachable, they don't reply to mail, but they deliver messages through assigned proxies. Then you find yourself thinking of modern day spiritual gurus and the like. . . We all believe they're making it up, but they amass followers. They get adoration, power, respect, money. . . It's not like they have no incentive to lie. Abraham founded an entire nation based on his claims. So at some point it just becomes a question of, "How could I trust that these people I've never met, who clearly stood to gain so much with these stories, are telling the truth?" They offer no proof other than the words that speak. And when you look for it you're told the answer is the words themselves, which, aren't particularly unique, and faith. Anyway, so I get his annoyance as someone who also went through a journey like him, you see this thing that there's zero evidence is true, with so much power, and while yes, good things are done in its name, the vast majority of wars, genocides, slavery and other atrocities are justified by it. Even today we go to war as a "Christian nation", with people calling"God bless America" and "God bless the troops." And this starts to feel like a very dangerous thing and not a harmless personal belief.
Your comment is really interesting and was fascinating to read. I was raised in a pretty non religious environment. My family is from former East Germany where religion wasn’t much of a thing compared to the West, I was born years after wall came down tho. But I was given the freedom to decide for myself if religion was something for me or not. So I sat down just like you described and read most of the bible as well as the quran. And it was just like you described: I couldn’t see those texts and stories as anything more than mythology and well, just stories. I thought about the people and entities in those books in the same way as when I read mythology books on norse or greek gods or Grimm‘s fairytales. When people draw strength from religion and their faith when needed, who am I to judge or disapprove? But I have major problems with institutionalised religion. For me, when thinking about human history, the bad sides overweigh with religion overall.
@@fenudel2734 Thank you! I wrote so much I figured no one would even read it. I'm glad it was appreciated by someone. :-) Random that you're from former East Germany, I'm actually in Berlin right now for the first time. Flew in yesterday. Small world. I haven't read the whole Quran, but I did read a fair bit of that as well, both religions as practiced I think veer pretty far from how I would interpret them, but like you, it's pretty hard for me to look at these as anything other than mythology. It's hard to believe how many events in world history are justified or caused by these stories
add to this, the fact that people wrote the bible back in a time where science didn't have a lot of answers. everything unexplainable was just magic back then
Great video, enjoyed your reaction. I think the trap that religious people fall into is to think ‘All the evidence I need is what I know in my head and feel in my heart and what I know to be true’, but that isn’t really evidence for it being true, that’s just a statement about how much you believe it - and also how limiting your perspective is. Faith is the word used to justify a belief when there is insufficient evidence. For something that seems so important in so many lives of people who are believers, it seems strange to me that it has so little basis in reality. I am not sure if you use faith to determine the truth of anything else in your life that is not biblical. I suspect not, because faith can be used to justify absolutely anything.
Great to see some different reactions to one of Tim's songs. Tim is not being disrespectful to religion as a whole. He is merely drawing attention to the glaring inconsistencies between the stories of religion, the actions of numerous church elders and the modern practice of 'witnessing', or 'laying hands on' people. I absolutely respect your right to believe what you choose to believe. However, to go through your reaction saying things like Tim is taking a larger world view over a single event, so you could understand his view, even if it differs from your personal view. Perfectly fine and good discussion of peoples' thoughts on religion. However, to then label this performance as "the most petty thing you have ever seen"? Then you nail your flag to the post. and open yourself up for some scrutiny. There is nothing 'petty' in that performance. What you have is intelligent questioning of certain beliefs held by certain sectors of the religious community. The problem is that Tim stepped on some toes that made you feel uncomfortable and led you to disparage his performance. I think that was a cheap shot that ended a video poorly; one that was otherwise a rational and engaging. I am not trying to change your minds, just leave out the weak shots. Combat it with facts, not insults. Sorry to post a bit of a negative comment. I wish you both well.
I mean as an atheist who agrees with everything that Tim said in this song, I agree that the song is incredibly petty. That's part of the comedy of it in my opinion. It's an over the top rebuttal to a very weak argument. It's petty in a funny way of just how hard he went to mock Sam lol
@De & Dre: What I really like about your reaction is that even if you don't see eye to eye with Tim, you are very self concious and respectful in your criticism. Really love that! Keep it going!
Glad you guys made it to this and dug it! It's awesome hearing people with strong beliefs be able to talk about both sides of a difficult topic which is what I was excited for with this! Other Tim songs that I think you might enjoy or have fun with - The Pope - Definitely a conversation song, though short and very vulgar (purposefully), but definitely sends a message. Dark Side and Rock N Roll Nerd are both great songs that talk more about Tim as a person and show off his musical talents way more. For Dark Side, it seems like most people enjoy the one he does solo on the piano titled 'Dark side The Awesome Version' White Wine in the Sun - is a beautiful Christmas song different from most of his other stuff, and it references some Australian traditions like it being sunny and warm in Australia for Christmas, but it challenges some of the topics Christmas originally represented while also telling why its still special to him. I think you'd enjoy breaking it down. And then songs like Confessions, If I Didn't have You & Lullaby are hilarious and showcase his actually comedy act, but might not be as deep to dissect (though I do really enjoy If I didn't have You and think it does still have a burried meaning) Hope you enjoy if you go more down the rabbit hole!
Minchin is neither petty or bitter, suggesting he is is an extremely defensive reaction. He's pointing out the absurdity of how relgious people attribute anything good to their chosen god without considering the reality of the situation. Just because someone doesn't believe in your chosen god doesn't mean they're bitter or damaged and suggesting it does is why people write songs like this one.
It was very interesting watching people trying to undersand Tim Minchin's song, but being afraid of understanding it. I did love watching it. You do look intelligent enough to eventually understand the way the world is.
Certainly not "petty", but if you wanna see how deep he'll go to write a personal piece: He also has a song with this orchestra about how much he enjoys cheese 😂
Lol he's not 'petty'. It's odd seeing people who've been brainwashed I to one way of thinking struggling when presented with truth. I think deep down these men are intelligent enough to know they've been conned their whole life.
I'm the most proud Patreon subscriber of yours right now. The level of depth that you gentlemen get to and the way you see and break things down is impeccable! Kudos.
Depth? We must have been watching different reactions... as a side note Sam and your god are bothe fictional. Also Sam and Jesus ar most likely based on several figures, damn did i just go in to more depth then these 2 dudes.
i'm agnostic. never been a member of a church. as i've gotten older i've seen how important a church and religion can be to different communities and i completely respect that and don't question a persons reasons for being a part of that. i also think tim is freaking hilarious. awesome video guys.
Brilliant reaction. I've watched a few and I love the way that you naturally complement each other and give the other 'space to speak'. Keep them coming. For me, the question is, was there ever actually a Sam? Or do we believe Sam exists because of a story we were told?
Hi, guys! My answer to: Is this necessary to mock somebody else's experience, just because it is different? No it is not, but this opinion was about to be pushed onto him, so he pushes back.
As an Australian I’m so proud of Tim and another Australian Jim Jefferies comedian working in the USA …both atheists. Jim’s hilarious on god. Google him. I’m an atheist too. It just does my head in that so many people believe in religion with absolutely not a single bit of proof. Why did they stop believing in Santa 🎅 there is absolutely no difference that I can see. I don’t know a single Aussie who goes to church or mentions religion. So many Christian churches have been closed and turned into bars and restaurants..a much better use for them.
You know, I'm a big fan of how you guys can see not only the artistry but also the alternate viewpoint to your own and discuss them thoughtfully without being dismissive. It's great to see
I agree with others that "Storm" should be the next conversation starter, but I admit I am kind of curious to see how far you can be pushed to the limits of offense and outrage with "Ten foot clock and a few hundred virgins". Besides the outrageous nature of it, it actually contains some of the most impressive coordination of rhythm, lyrics and melody.
@@fliprim Agreed on Storm, first performances are always the best ones, IMO because the audience doesn't already know the punchlines, and the performer gets more of a buzz from getting that first time audience reaction. Fortunately De & Dre have so far reacted to the best version of Thank You God, and the best version of Prejudice. There are other versions of these songs where Tim is smirking before the punchlines because he knows the audience is already in on it, so definitely the originals are better. Regarding Ten foot clock, I should probably take back that recommendation! 🙂 Tim himself warns that the vulgarity in this song is best avoided if you hold religion dear, which is totally fair. i.e. If you are religious, this song is not for you. On the other hand, if you are desensitised to all of that sort of thing and are able to listen to the message without being triggered by any of the vulgar and offensive language, then you'll be able to better appreciate the artistry with which it was composed and performed. As to why Tim chooses to write such songs. I think "Beauty" is an amazingly and ironically beautiful song about why he chooses not to follow that easy path of beauty (with a few exceptions), and considers it a distraction from his true path of satire and rage.
Tim is not upset and no I don't think it is inappropriate for him to respond. Just because you believe in a God that does not mean you should be telling others how to live. It's not cool to pushbyour beliefs onto others who don't believe. If you want people to be respectful of your religious ideologies then you need to show respect in return and not try to indoctrinate atheists.
I have a Christian friend who I often debate. She told me that a friend of hers was sick for two years and got better once she prayed for him. I asked the obvious questions. Did he ever pray for himself? In the two years, did anyone else pray for him. Was that the first time she prayed for him. She apologized everything away. As usual.
I think you'd find "If I Didn't Have You" fascinating. If you do it, make sure you get the version with him talking about it afterward. I think you two would really enjoy "Storm" too.
it's the same sort of reasoning as incels use: "standards not met" = "bitter/angry" ie if I refuse to lower my standards for someone, I surely must be the one who is flawed & not the other way around, right? Right?
There really is a genius to Tim’s writing, thank you god is basically facts over faith. Storm, the pope song, if I didn’t have you and not perfect are others by him that are must hears. Love your guys take on his stuff, very well thought out. I like seeing intelligent people react to his songs, going to subscribe. And you’re correct, it’s fantastically petty lol
In addition to what others have said regarding Tim's point being about evidence (which is kinda irrelevant to believers because it devolves into the faith-vs-evidence bickering that never goes anywhere), I think there is something else, too. A lot of believers, when they encounter an atheist, have this reaction like "but why?" they need a REASON or CAUSE for the person to be an atheist. Atheists are "sick" or "broken" in their eyes. Someone must have hurt them. They must be damaged in some way to be this "negative" and "cynical". They must just not get it. I bet if I talk to them, I can help heal them or help them get their head right. And in their minds, that's doing good work. But the INSTANT an atheist tries to do anything like that to try and persuade a believer to go the other way, all of a sudden it's like, "Woah, this guy's kind of an asshole. Why can't he just leave people alone?" And so one of Tim's points too is like... atheists aren't damaged or mad or anything. They're just normal. They don't believe in god just like some people don't smoke. They're not MAD. They just don't do that. They might be able to tell you some good reasons, but they also honestly don't need one! But people are always giving them crap about it and treating them like jerks, but they just don't smoke and they're happy with it! They didn't get hurt by a smoker as a kid or anything. It's not that deep. But it's just frustrating that it's always like, whatever religious people think, hey, that's their way, leave them alone. Whatever atheists think, wow, that guy's an asshole. A lot of atheists just keep quiet cuz it's not worth it, but Tim is one of these guys who's like, well, I'm confident in what I think, and if you think that makes me an asshole, then alright, here goes!
At the end of this interview, Tim talks about 'Thank you God'. He says he used the principle Occam's Razor to show how there are many simpler explanations of experiences like Sam's mum than the existence and intervention of a higher power. ruclips.net/video/0pX9PxGQGlQ/видео.html
Tim Minchin is self taught pianist - he is a genius. This song needs to be taken in context of when this concert was preformed - it was during the time that the churches and their child abuse were forefront in the news.
You guys both articulated thoughts and feelings I have every time i see/hear a Tim Minchin performance for the first time. It's very satisfying when you find intelligent and thoughtful commentary especially when it pertains to someone who is so unique. To hear someone elses views about someone you admire spoken with such respect and clarity is such a validation of ones initial reactions...they seem to get what it is that this musical comedian manages to convey so effortlessly.
'It takes growth and maturity'..... and then the old epithets are trundled out (oh, he must be angry, something in his life turned him against religion, etcetera). No, Tim has assessed the evidence, or rather the lack of it, and has no time for irrational codswallop (that's BS for our American cousins).
I am a Christian but still find Tim hilariously clever. I believe it's a fragile faith is bothered by this. My faiths pretty solid so I just find it clever word play. I never believed God was in service to serve our wishes. As a person who has suffered a great deal my belief in God helped me cope. His rant about the pope is even more cutting.
Warning, these are my views, as an athiest. If you are religious and think this could offend you in any way, please don't read. And as with all groups of people this doesn't mean to attack all religious people, just certain aspects of the religion, as well as certain actions of the believers I can empathize with Tim's view here, mostly due to 1, I have the same non beliefs as him as an athiest, and 2, I have been in a similar situation. What isn't often talked about is the villianization athiest often experience. Even if it doesn't seem like it at first, what Sam attempted to do there was tell an anecdotal emotional story, which Tim can't dissprove, and because it is emotionally driven, many people would call Tim a jerk for responding how he did. Many religious people like to position themselves as heroes or victims,as they believe they can do no wrong, and when people speak out against them, that person is in the wrong. This tendency makes it nigh-impossible to achieve anything in a debate of religion as regardless of the points made, most religious people will say "well I experienced XYZ" or "Well XYZ happened so god must be real" both points are completely subjective and anecdotal, there is no evidence brought to the table there, and when you attempt to debate that point you are then seen as the villian for doing so. Another common phrase that is designed to attack the morality of athiesm, is "How can you reject our creator?" Because it sets a wrong precedent, athiesm isn't REJECTING a god, it is the lack of belief that there is one. But by wording it the way they very often do, it places athiesm in the roll of evil, as we are seen as rejecting the omnibenevolent creator, which then places whomever the religious person is in a state abject morality, where they accept the creator. Even when that is by no means what the arguement is about, it is about belief, not rejection. What annoys me the most about this is throughout all of our history, christianity/catholicism has very often caused more harm then good. Whether it be bigotry towards homosexuality which PREDATES the very religion itself, or the crusades, the witch trials, the sensless war, etc. Yet, they try to place themselves on his pedastal of morality atop the countless masses they have oppressed. Many a time I have debated religion with catholics and almost every single time when the crusades are braught up they reply with something along the lines of, "Oh, we denounce that pope" which means nothing, your pope still caused it to happen. That is all to say, the I empathize with Tim here because the attempt Sam made at placing himself on a moral highground is beyond annoying and pointless. 21:02 the ironic thing about that point is that is the very reason relgion exists to begin with. at one point humans had NO answers, they heard thunder as roars, and wind as screams. When offered no explanation one must make their own, as such religions progressively began to form, which is why there are so many in existence today, the vast majority of people did the samething, jewish people, egyptians, greeks, etc. We all wanted a reason and formed our own. This section will be under the belief god is real, for the point of argument. Now, to actually debate sams point, I will be focusin on the assumed morality of god. To do that we must look at what god is written to be, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Let's work in reverse order. Omnibenevolent(All-good): God being all-good require him to have a permanent position of the highest morality. Before Sam's story we could assume he played his role as a passive observer allowing humanity to do what it will on its own. But due to sam's story we know this is not the case as he got involved. Which means he is very willing to play an active role in this world, but this disproves him being all good as the vast amount of 'sin' throughout the world. Sure you could say he wishes us to make our own decision, but what about the countless diseases plaguing our world? Well, maybe he wants us to help ourselves, but then, why are there so many other people whom have cateracts yet aren't offered assistance? Is it because they didn't pray? Why would an omnibenevolent deity be so petty as to punish a person simply for non-belief. "For you shall worship no other god, for the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god."(Exodus 34:14): Jealousy is almost entirely seen as a negative emotion, a flaw if you will, a form of envy, which an all-good god shouldn't possess. "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and r*pes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the woman for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) Now, I assume the vas majority of people would dissagree with this sentiment, yet, the bible says so, which was supposedly written by god, who is all-good, so does that mean this should be something commonplace in our society? There are countless other stories showing the questionable morals of this supposed benevolent deity. Samson(Judges 16:15-17) Granted power the caveat being he couldn't cut his hair, his wife had someone do so while he was sleeping and god punished him for it even though he played no role in the action. Job who god allowed satan to ruin. Abraham, told to kill his son. There are so many stories of this occuring. Omniscient(all-knowing): God must have known these tragedies were going on, as well as their outcomes yet still allowed all of it. He knew how lucifer would turn out, he knew Job would stay loyal, he knew Abraham would side with him, he knew what Adam and Eve would do, and decided he would do all of this regardless. Omnipresent: God is everywhere therefore he could always help all in need yet chooses not to. Omnipotent(All powerful): God has the capacity to save everyone yet chooses not to. He very well could save every person, cure every illness, grant evidence, and save the world, yet he chooses not to. In conclusion of this section, god is able, knowing, and supposedly desires for good to exist, yet repeatedly chooses not to support good. He picks and chooses who he grants his assistance, he ruins lives simply to prove they would still believe, he does all of these horrific things, and yet, by definition they must be good, as he is the definition of good. So, I ask you, should I allow my employee's life to be ruined to see if he would remain loyal? Should I turn away people who are dying to assist a person with a minor back ache simply because they believe in me? "For in six days the lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. But he rested on the seventh day." (Exodus 20:11) An OMNIPOTENT deity required REST? By its very nature omnipotence would set everything to the same level of effort, whether it be breathing or creating realms, NOTHING could cause any level of strain. So by the very definition of all powerful, god isn't. Look, I do not hate those that wish to believe in a higher power, but it would be pointless, and immoral not to atleast express my views and show the various paradoxes as well as hipocritical statements within the bible. If you wish to believe in your god, do so. But remember this, and remember this always, you believe in only one more god then I do, for the god you believe in is 1 of a thousand options. Do not cast judgement on athiests for you are barely different, as just like me, you don't believe in countless other religions. Either way, I am not all knowing, so I would be an absolute fool to say that a god couldn't exist, but I doubt any of the religions are correct as all of them have their flaws. I simply targetted christianity as it is the largest religion in my area, and the one I am most faces with. Do not feel attacked as both of us could be wrong as well, in the end we won't know until we die.
15:00 the "few bad apples" argument for the reputation of church/god does not work when it's mostly bad apples. The god-fearing do almost nothing for others in proportion to what they do for themselves
Absolutely Brilliant Comments! Tim Minchin is a Fantastic comic, with such intellect. I absolutely love how he very intelligently takes down the human belief system!!!!
Love these guys Their willingness to listen Tim’s a genius My grandfather was a atheist surrounded by Catholics Methodist etc He was the best most generous, kindest person I’ve ever known I know he is in Heaven
I think one of the main points he's trying to get across is that anecdotal evidence isn't enough in the face of all the things god allows, did in the Bible and what his followers have done in his name or have covered up to protect the church. I heartily recommend watching more of Tim's stuff Fuck the Pope is a very vulgar but understandably so when you are faced with he context. Other songs to watch that are great would be "fence" which shows his point of view about the world. "Cont." Which shows some of how dark his comedy can be. "3 minute song" a perfect example of his humour and his genius command of words
Just discovered Tim, which led me to your channel. Love him and your reaction. Critical thinking in action! It’s not easy being an atheist and having Christianity shoved down your throat your entire life. All the best!
What a fantastic reaction to this extremely clever and controversial song. As a Christian I love an intelligent atheist and Tim is one of the best. Loved your discussion and analysis respecting the 2 different beliefs and messages of Tim and Sam. Please check out his other stuff. He also has a debate with Russell Brand on Rationalism v Spirituality. They are at opposing ends of the spectrum and very well matched in intelligence, confidence and kindness. Thanks again
Love your thoughtful analyses so much. I was so happy to have discovered Minchin and a brilliant, talented artist who felt exactly as I do about religion. I appreciate you guys’ perspectives and comments so much. “He’s so petty” is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard.
To get a fuller picture of the quality of his song writing and intelligence without covering race or religion - look at 'Not Perfect', 'If I didn't have you' or 'White wine in the Sun'.
I'm agnostic/atheist. One of the things that bothers me that believers (typically Christian/Catholic folk) do is try to justify why a person is atheist. And you guys actually did it in this video, and it's always the SAME justification. "Something must have happened to them in the past that made them hate religion/god (trauma)". This is a fine theory in itself, cause there are for sure people out there where this applies to them. But the reality of it is this; it does not apply to ALL atheist people. I myself had bad experiences in church when I was younger, but as an adult, I can clearly separate those bad experiences, from what the foundation of my world view falls upon. To clarify what I mean here, it's exactly as Tim says in his opening monologue/story before the song starts. It's just evidence based. I don't view every physical thing around me, or nature in general, as proof of a god. There are other, more concrete explanations on how these things came to be. There's far more evidence in favor of evolution based theories. Past this, you just get into arguments on philosophy and what not. But what still stands true, to me at least, is that my bad experiences within the church(es) are separate from how I came to my world view. I would say, however, they aren't entirely mutually exclusive from one another, because those experiences for sure pushed me in a direction to look elsewhere for explanations for things. I don't harbor hate or ill-will towards the people who gave me bad experiences, nor do I hate god (I don't believe in any particular one god, so logically I can't really, truly hate something I don't think exists).
To see Tim's human side watch white wine in the sun. It's a Christmas song. Note tim is Australian and it is summer at christmas and in Perth where he hails from can realistically be 100F or more on Christmas day.
It's frustrating as an atheist that a lot of people think you are a free agent and they try to recruit you to their religion. If i was Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Mormon they would accept it and not say a word, but because I'm atheist some people try and convince you their god is real.
I can fully understand why Tim reacted to Sam like this and made this song. Everyone can believe whatever they want to believe, but don't go around giving unsolicited religious sales pitches to other people, especially when the "evidence" is something like this
When I was younger, I used to believe in God. I'd pray, read the Bible, go to church, but one day when I was 12 my best friend's dad died of cancer. 1 week later my brother got diagnosed with cancer. That was the day I accepted that, as far as I'm concerned, there is no god. 2 of the best people I know no only having that awful disease, but losing one of them (my brother was fortunate enough to have it diagnosed early and cured) no god would do that to us. I once bumped in to the priest from my old church some 5 years later. Nice chap, asked what happened and tried to almost recruit me back to the religion. He wouldn't accept my belief (or lack thereof) and that just got me pissed off. I had to walk away. Believe what you want but never try shove it down the throat of others
Exactly. Stuff like that is why, even though I’m an atheist who finds conversations about religion very interesting, I try to never bring it up if religious people aren’t advertising their beliefs and shoving it in people’s faces. Don’t walk up to people and shove your unsupported beliefs at them (or your supported ones if you know it’s gonna cause problems, really), and if you do, you best be genuinely willing to 1 be disagreed with and 2 leave it if someone says they’re not interested in talking about it.
I also really dislike the "you must have some kind of trauma/be upset with god" assumption. Skepticism isn't a result of pain, it's a result of questioning the tales other humans tell.
There is no Sam. It's a story. A really, really good story. He is making a point: that people believe things on the flimsiest of evidence despite mountains of contradictory evidence.
@@grahamers How can you not believe in Sam? Tim Minchin has provided evidence of his existence by singing a song about him.
It's not pettiness. It is just having critical thinking skills rather than blind faith.
This!!
It is critical thinking, but it is also a little bit petty, which is okay, satire needs pettiness
@@hannajung7512 I wouldn't say petty. Just a bit of lighthearted humorous snark.
It's 100% petty, and hilarious for it. Having the critical thinking skills allows him to understand the story is bullshit. But it's only when he's powered by pettiness that he gets a whole orchestra to say it. Lmao!
I was surprised about the assumption that Tim would be bitter. To me he seems like one of the least bitter people in this world. He is promoting kindness, happiness, appreciation of the wonders of this world, healthy relationships, and awereness of hypocrates who can hurt you. He has beautiful and honest love songs to his wife of a few decades on his newest album which is a little more serious one. I can't find the bitterness from any of his words.
It's a defensive mechanism that a lot of religious people fall back to. Instead of countering the point made by logically assessing the argument being made, they dismiss it as just someone's emotional immaturity, making them seem more sophisticated.
@@Ironoclasty He does seem to be bitter towards Sam though. Onision actually had a similar logic. God does not exist because this and this is happening so why God would do anything for some one random person.
@@gandalainsley6467 I'm not familiar with Onision's outlook on religion (or anything else really). But, you're just making my point for me though. Instead of taking a position on why Onision's statement isn't supportable, You simply state (also without support) that he said "X." Just because someone files other people's statements into predetermined categories doesn't make them justified in dismissing the claim.
@@Ironoclasty You won't like my answer. From his standpoint it makes sense. From mine it doesn't because i have experienced and seen that God is real. Its one of those things where you have to experience it yourself to believe. Its like with aliens.(yes they are real. Well their ship is(it also could be Russians with a new technology that looks like a cartoon Ufo which spins like a beyblade)and it does not just float in the air. Upper and middle parts spin in opposite directions like propellers so it does makes sense why it looks like its just floating in the air to some people who have seen it ) You will be in denial until you see them yourself. I don't know if God is showing me these things because i find them not a big deal or because i already find world boring and i am okay with dying at 24. Maybe it could be a different reason. Also i know how from your stand point this sounds. I don't expect you to believe any of this.
Well I think Tim might be bitter hearing religious arguments like this condoning Gods kindness when, if there’s evidence of anything, it’s that God is not kind. I am an atheist like Tim and completely adore him, and I’m constantly frustrated with the out look that God is great when he can’t fix our most pressing painful sad circumstances but can help someone find the perfect f’ing parking space. If God is so vast, he shouldn’t be so incredibly finite. I’m not mad at Christians, I was one, I understand what they think they are doing, and I think the majority of them are good people, but my frustration lies with ignoring evidence to preserve faith, which feels very dangerous to me. Also I think we might be able to better tackle these big issues if we would stop assuming God is going to step in, or that it’s in his hands, or part of his twisted plan to let children starve to death. “God works in mysterious ways” is man’s cop out.
Hi, atheist here. To me this song is a pretty fresh take on religion criticism. I see plenty of “wow you believe in a man in the sky, you’re so dumb” arguments which are particularly condescending. This was the first time I saw “ok let’s pretend god is real based on what you’re saying, he’s pretty small based on what you’re telling me.”
Tim is a very very kind man but he does love punching up at power institutions and religion is his favorite target.
I love this song.
Fuck yea, just wait until you hears what he has to say about cardinal pell or the pope.
If you like Tim, you will probably like Eric Schwartz (Not Smooth E) Start with "Keep Your Jesus Off My Penis," and then "Another Mother Flood."
Tim was raised without religion. It's not bitterness that's colouring his views. He just can't use faith as the basis for belief in anything. He doesn't believe the christian god exists in the same way that (I'm assuming) you don't believe in Thor, or Apollo, or Vishnu, or Pluto, or...
I don't think Tim made this song because he was upset at Sam for having faith in something Tim doesn't believe in. I think he made this song because he was upset that Sam insisted this event was iron-clad proof that the thing he had faith in is real and simply couldn't understand how Tim could feel any other way.
It opens up dialogue about anecdotal evidence and the concept of working backwards from a conclusion to generate implied correlation.
He's not even upset. More like amused and a little exasperated/disappointed.
@@noracola5285 I think he might be a bit upset about how the religious right, most glaringly in the US but also the world over, are starting to try, once again, to force their beliefs onto society as a whole by taking over governments and passing new regressive laws ( laws that they then often only want applied to those they see as "other", and of course beneath themselves, but never actually applied to themselves or their loved ones), and sees mass belief of faith in religion as a harm to society in an increasing manner again.
He's just making a funny version of a common debate point. And the humour and music make it hit home much harder.
We've all been there, but this man made a cool song ridiculing the argument. Always stands true, comedy is not serious.
One of the strongest messages in the song for me is....Sam is saying that his mum's cataract healing was a miracle from God that shows how benevolent he is...and Tim is essentially saying, "think of all the people in the world right now, praying because they're starving, or dying or horrible diseases, or because their situation is so grim and hopeless....and God does nothing about THEM...but you're coming up to me preaching about your mums cataracts???"
The fact that this song brought on like a 15 minute conversation about what it means to be a good person is no better example of why Tim Minchin is a modern day philosopher
“Take a break from giving babies malaria” is the key to the song for me. Getting passed the arrogance of imagining that the Creator of the Universe gives a poop about your health issues, He seems to be unbothered about the swathes of afflicted children he also creates, which suggests He’s at least a little bit of a hypocrite. Great reaction, guys.
I think it's "taking a break from his usual stunt of being a sexist, racist, murderous Cu.........." that does it for me?🤣👍
I totally agree, the other verse is 'Fuck me Sam, what are the odds?' If you picked the right version of the right God, you're set.
Yep!! Some kinda ego??😂😂😂😂
Something something mysterious ways something God’s plan something faith.
Human ego knows no boundaries, which is completely ironic, because the primary message of Christianity's main example was to practice humility. But Christians famously tell everyone who'll give them the vaguest attention how a deity responsible for creating the entire universe would care about what is the equivalent of less than a tiny particle in an atom. Such a colossal entity would care no more about the humans that briefly walk under a star in a tiny galaxy on the edge of the cosmos than we care about the brief life of an undiscovered and dying bacteria on the other side of our planet. It is arrogance on parade to believe such a thing.
No matter how hard your life is, you have never been burned as bad as Sam 😂😂😂😂
Idk, Phil Daoust got roasted pretty hard
@@stevel6360 ooohh I forgot about Phil 🤯🤯😂😂🔥🔥
Or God
Tim also went after Cardinal Pell pretty damn hard
What about the pope?
I have to disagree with the petty label. Assuming the story he told was accurate, he was completely minding his business when this asshat went out of his way to isolate him and speak to him in an extremely condescending manner. All he did was respond with an amazing diss track. Sam should have kept his mouth shut.
Agree 100%! It’s not petty at all, it’s genius. Oh, and absolutely correct and well founded.
If you want petty Tim Minchin look up The Song for Phil Daoust.
@@comedynerd6669 Thanks for the recommendation! Good stuff.
I doubt even Tim would disagree that this song was petty as hell. Pettiness isn't when you're in the wrong. It's when you're right and take your reaction further than it requires.
Tim said he had the tendency to mock. So I'm sure Sam was justified to an extent in his defence of his belief. It's the assertion that Tim had a closed mind or hadn't thought it trough that would have been the driver for this song. What Tim imagined religious types think of him.
I feel that Tim’s angle on this one was centered around the “evidence”. He told Sam the reason he didn’t, and couldn’t, believe in god is because he lacked evidence. And Sam’s response was one similar to many Christians, he witness what he perceived to be a miracle. So Tim is saying, there’s so many logical and scientific reasons for what happened that have absolutely nothing to do with it being a miracle. The diagnosis could’ve have been wrong to begin with (something that happens more often than we think), she could have gone into remission, etc. So while Sam is trying to use this story as evidence, Tim still can’t see how that could be considered definitive proof of an omnipotent being when nothing else adds up. He can’t believe that one specific religious sect happened to be prayed to the right god, and at that, the right version of that god, and instead of dealing with arguably more serious and devastating problems in the world, god is too busy fixing cataracts and healing pets or whatever.
As an atheist, I agree with Tim here. There’s just too much for me to ignore. And it’s not all just human flaws, like a lot of Christian’s will try to pass off as the reason for inconsistency in religion. So for that reason, I don’t see religion as an explanation for how and why we’re here. However, I have no problem with people having a religion. Aside from the extremists and the passive practicers (the ones that only go to church on Christmas, etc) I actually think religion can be a good thing for people. While I don’t believe in the stories or practices, the overarching message of most religion is to be the best human you can be and to care for others. And for many people, religion is a way to get through dark times. Some people need something higher than themselves to turn to and lead them back to a better place mentally and physically. So if religion can be that for people, whether it’s true or not, I’m happy it exists for them. But for me, that’s all religion is. And I think Tim put it perfectly.
Meanwhile, and especially these days, I have a way too hard time overlooking or ever tolerating the fascist politics and cultures that christian people and institutions are promoting to find it in myself to regard christianity as anything but bad... I mean, christianity's entire legacy is one defined by the grooming of children (while continuing to spin that moral panic myth that LGBT-people are the ones doing that); institutionalized paedophilia; an ever-present systemic protection of paedophiles by their heavenly father's institutions; psychological abuse via guilt-tripping and accusations of "sins" and "imperfection"; systemic brainwashing, sexual abuse and exploitation, especially of people with mental illnesses, disabilities and disorders; the Jesus-and-god-approved institution of slavery (which is still alive and kicking thanks to the 13th Amendment combined with for-profit prisons); a historical record of systemic bigotry of various kinds, mostly homophobia and transphobia but let's not forget about all of the sexism, racism and the historic record of supporting militant supremacist groups; consistent support of the worst kinds of political ideologues that humanity can muster (from Hitler to Drumpf) and equally consistent refusals to oppose those kinda people with the unity and resources christians and their organized religions have at their disposal; just about the entirety of the anti-abortion movement in all its misogynistic disgrace; the war on science and intellectualism; conservatism; authoritarianism and anti-democratic movements aimed towards instating a theocratic tyranny and the worship of a being that I cannot regard in any more flattering terms than "psychopathic monster."
The sad fact is that in a few locations, and very often in places of notable inequality religion can become a tool for those seeking political/social traction and thus exploitation. The USA in its religiosity, compared with other (developed) OECD countries, is a very substantial outlier. It has the highest inequality with its sky high GINI coefficient, and a free market approach to religion, spawning many new variants, claiming better healing properties and better (after-) life insurance coverage. This environment, of a divided nation of the poorest needing religious support to get through the day and the richer needing religious excuses (excluded groups... it'll get fixed later,... God loves exactly obedient straight white hard workers like ME!) as to why they need not care so much, allows both to coexist and substantial political and social progress to be thwarted.
De and Dre's discussion here is excellent and honourable but they they speak with the goggles of American experience, an environment with religion as the overwhelming default position (2009 Gallup USA 67% religion is important.) For both Tim and I, we experienced very little religion (Australia 33%, UK 25%). We are default godless, and science, evolution and neuroscience etc. fill all those god-gap questions, not only well, but with predictive heft. The mistake of most Americans (including atheist) is to misunderstand godlessness as some necessary rejection of a god, often provoked by some life dissatisfaction. Nope, once it no longer permeates most childhood experience when thinking habits are made mostly for life, there is little/nothing to reject, and precious little gap (these days) needing to be filled.
@@fliprim yea I hear what you’re saying. There’s definitely some of that here, too. I went to a catholic high school (my parents chose it for the level of education, we were Protestant growing up.) But my school fully embraced science and evolution. I remember my chemistry teacher having a poster on her wall that said “there was a Big Bang, and God saw that it was good”. And it stuck out to me cause it was kinda the first time I saw those two concepts attempting to support each other. While they embraced the science and didn’t see it disproving religion, I still never heard people trying to connect the two. It always felt like two separate discussions.
But I think there’s a lot more people here that thing that way, they’re just not the loudest group, and I’m sure they are far from the minority. I actually find it surprising that Christian’s here wouldn’t jump on that train to be honest, tho. Cause while science does help explain how things happen, nature can be so mind boggling. You’d think they’d use things like evolution and the Big Bang to prove that god does exist. It wouldn’t be hard to believe that the Big Bang was a result of god’s power. Or that evolution was what god intended.
As a teen I didn’t really understand why so many people resisted that concept. But what I think it honestly comes down to is faith. There’s a lot of religious people who claim to have faith and truly believe in something. But they don’t fully understand or have all the answers. So when they’re unsure, instead of simply saying they don’t know they rely on the age old “god works in mysterious ways” or “thy will be done” nonsense. And it eventually turns defensive. They’re afraid that because they don’t have all the answers it means that their faith is in jeopardy or others may judge them for not having unconditional faith. So they turn the tables and try to make it seem that asking any questions at all is to question god. And that’s how so many of them live now. So many of the questions I asked during Sunday school or religion class just felt like cop out answers. I think that more than anything is what made me question what they taught me. It wasn’t even that I had a hard time believing in an invisible man in the sky. It was the way people shied away from the hard questions, the questions that mattered most. I really think that’s how we’ve ended up in this predicament (and of course politics drive a lot of it cause it helps them keep control and manipulate the public.) If you can’t question religion, you can only follow it blindly. And that’s how the Joel Olsteens of the world get away with what they do; they prey on the desperate and keep their support through brainwashing people to believe god will bless them or heal them in return for their undying faith. Oh, and half their rent money. It was far easier to believe in religion before I watched it (and politics) destroy my country. I don’t even recognize this place anymore. And it’s really disheartening.
@@moni13000 Thank you for sharing your experience. It is so helpful hearing these accounts to understand how and why folk think what they do. In the UK my childhood (1960s) had no religious experience intended for me personally to follow. Religion was a private affair. As far as I know none of my school chums attended church. Visiting at home no hint of religion on the wall or in parental behaviours. Yes we sang old songs (hymns) in the morning at school but these seemed out of some nostalgic tradition. Never at home or at school was I presented with anything other than era-appropriate science. I only encountered folk clearly affected by religion, as a young adult teaching at college in the 1970s, when I encountered Americans first hand. My mind was blown by the blocked-off-ness of my first Creationist student. No matter how I tried to engage I found some mental roadblock, clearly put their by another. This seemed like an act of malice, destroying a perfectly good mind. This as much as anything fuelled a rather angry surge of atheism in my later life, calmed by recollections of a neighbour and some new friends.
My one religious encounter as a child was my friend's dad a Quaker by the name of Fox, possibly the kindest man I ever encountered (after my own dad). A history lecturer his library was wonderful. He let me browse to my hearts content. My dad talked science and music and their wonders and Mr Fox talked literature and art, both seemingly without borders. UK Quakers (more so than their rather pious American counterparts) understand that we are to be the moral authors, that we have ALL been given the wit and wisdom to do the job and that it is in fact our main job. Heaven is to be built here and from now on by our own hand. Dogma is to be guarded against, priests and shamans shunned and scripture leavened with wise writings from wherever they can be found. Their moral track record in the UK is exemplary. This was a religion mandating moral engagement and to that end acquiring wisdom.
In later life I had religious friends, very good friends, but for the life of me I could never discern religiosity affecting our moral or sciencey deliberations over a pint of beer. They seemed like Richard Fox. I asked one why was he Roman Catholic? Why not a Quaker? His answer, "My wife, and her family..." "Ah!...Your round."
Religion will sublime away with the generations into decency. It persists because its dogmas are perpetually restoked by those who profit from it. It is the priest and shamans that we must reserve our compassionate ire for. And with less compassion for politicians who use the priests and their manipulative product.
Well said. :D
Is it petty or does it highlight things that more people should consider?
Both. This is the same man who wrote The Song for Phil Daoust. He is capable of the most grandiose and thoroughly entertaining pettiness.
The cognitive dissonance is fascinating, but that makes this reaction more interesting so I definitely appreciate it.
Watching their minds break when presented with arguments destroying their belief systems is hilarious.
As an atheist who newer was exposed to any religious indoctrination I learn mush to see how they protect their fath from reality without even notice all the oroblems in the world created by the perfect, all knowing, loving and all powerful God.
They can't understand that it's just brainwashing of children so they fit in to the local cult.
If they where born somewhere else, their faith had been very different.
They speculate why atheist have to be so angry and not respect all the different religions but never think why they believe in stories they never read and why they believe in just that version.
It's interesting how they try to discredit Tim by painting him as someone traumatized and misguided. Tim merely posses enough critical thinking skills to question why a supposedly loving god causes suffering and death to so many (including babies) as part of his grand plan. He also questions whether there is is a more logical reasons for things rather than jumping to conclusions and using blind faith as guidance.
@@FM-qm5xs That's unfortunately what practically all religious people think about those that walk away from faith because it's what they were taught. They just can't imagine that someone could possibly think differently from them without some kind of traumatic experience. So sad.
He can’t let it be simple?
Most of the alternative possible explanations he puts forward in the song ARE simpler.
I wouldn’t exactly call an omnipotent being who expects to be worshipped -but also micromanages the orgasms of billions, as a for instance - a simple explanation. Of anything lol
Exactly.
I think that a lot of the "but what about..." arguments you get from believers boils down to this. The idea that an all powerful deity is behind it is the most complicated, unlikely explanation you could possibly come up with. And then act like you're the one reaching when you offer much simpler explanations. It's amazing.
Yes, I get what you mean. I struggle to micromanage my colonists' jobs and residence preferences in Surviving Mars, so I can only imagine how God would feel, if he were to exist. There's always someone who starts to decline in sanity or comfort, it's a nightmare....
I think Tim's issue is that Sam obviously wanted Tim to change his beliefs. He wasn't there to share ideas or have a genuine discussion, he felt Tim was wrong and wanted him to know it, even though Tim never asked. Tim has mentioned a million times that he has no issue with people that believe in God, only those that use their belief to harm others and let's face it, there has been a lot of that!
I have always felt that despite the relatively calm and plain intro that Tim gives to this song - the actual way Sam approached and tried to inform Tim must have been a lot more heavy handed and unpleasant. Or Sam was like the 5,000th person to try and do this to Tim. I would think if Sam was just giving a calm and measured conversation about faith there would not be this song. Making a song is a lot of work and you'd have to be pretty miffed to do it.
@@sociallyferal4237 Not really. I've written plenty of songs just for a laugh or because I had an idea I liked & if you're committed to it, no amount of work will dissuade you from completing it. It's not beyond the imagination to suppose the story with Sam was entirely invented, just to set up the song as a joke.
"I'm a big fan of yours, Tim! Now, let me completely change who you are!" I don't think people who hold religious beliefs understand when they are trying to proselytize. It's not like switching brands of baking soda. It's completely upending one's understanding of the universe. It's adding the existence of magic and spirits and demons and incantations. It would be no different than suddenly receiving an acceptance letter to Hogwarts.
I get exactly what he’s saying, my daughter had leukaemia at 3 years old, we were very lucky she survived many didn’t!!
But it certainly wasn’t because their families didn’t pray hard enough!!!
We should be asking why so many children all over the world have to suffer & die, without the chance of food never mind medicines???
I was raised in a Catholic Convent. Stolen Generation Aboriginal Australian taken at 2.5 years. I loved my early years there and was deeply instilled in the rituals and teachings of their religion. It was my only life. I am now 56 years old. Im do not believe in an omnipresent God as such but even as a kid, when the Nuns said God is everywhere, I looked for it. What I became to understand was the potential for compassion, morals and goodwill is everywhere. In all of us. As a child I figured that we are all capable of being 'God', in our everyday lives. Being loving, compassionate to our fellow humans and nature. We either choose good or not. So yes I thank my religious upbringing for forging my moral compass as Ive applied it with merit in my life, while not believing in a God or following a religion. My life is simple and rewarding that way.
White wine in the sun the animated music video brings tears to my eyes, no matter what time of year.
As an atheist, Tim is offended that churches get tax exemption, and the systematic abuse of children by many faiths.
You should check out "White wine in the Sun", one of his "serious" and touching songs. For many Aussies, it is their number one Christmas songs.
As I understand it, the main idea of the song is how incredibly self-centered many religious people tend to be. They claim that the creator of the universe cares about their personal issues while not giving a flying f about other people suffering horribly.
And it's ironic that at the same time these people call their faith humble.
Tim just addresses this disgustingly self-obsessed view of the world.
I'm an atheist. And this song makes so sense.
I respect people's feelings and beliefs. Mine are mine.
Tim made my favourite quote. That Faith is the denial of observation to maintain belief.
When you asked if it was necessary for Tim to approach Sam's beliefs like this, I think it was (and those intelligent lyrics - wow!). If Tim made it a habit to go up to openly religious people and tell them they are wrong because of A,B, C, then those people would have a right to talk about Tim to their congregation as an example of a non-believer. If you pull Tim out of a fun situation to try to convince him that he's wrong and you're right, then I think you're fair game! Imagine having the talent to go home and write a song like this! It's sooooo good!
Sam didn't want to just share his experience or love of god. His intention was entirely an attempt to "gotcha" Tim Minchin and somehow prove Tim wrong and himself right. Tim never asked, Sam came up and cornered him and then wouldn't accept Tim's answer.
Tim also hits home with me in that through out the ages...there have been SO MANY gods that different peoples have believed in and has given the sheep, comfort, and the shepherds, power! The only commonality between the peoples is that they have created their gods in their own image! It is just wholly sad that folks can't see this, pun intended! Thank you for another awesome video!
I think he's sarcastically pointing out that anecdotal evidence of events are often wrong. Sam applied his own confirmation bias to the incident of the prayers and the healing of Sam's mom's eye without doing any other investigation into the phenomenon. It is likely that, if this story is true, Sam has made a false correlation linking the prayer and the healing of the eye, rather than it being because of some other undiscovered cure, or wrong diagnosis.
He’s not bitter! He believes in science
If you guys are looking for the softer, more tender and heartwarming side of Tim's music, check out "White Wine in the Sun," which could be (but isn't, to be clear) subtitled "Why an Atheist Still Likes Christmas, despite...." I've seen a number of Aussie commenters say this song is considered Australia's unofficial Christmas song, and is a staple at Xmas time on radio, etc. there at that time of year. A few relatively mild (for Tim lol) jabs at religious institutions at the beginning aside, the second half of the song focusing on family getting together to celebrate will bring tears to your eyes, money back guaranteed. To explain the title by the way, December is in the middle of summer in Australia. I know you guys would figure it out eventually, but i know I was confused the first time I listened to this song so, heads up.
Was out of the country for a bit so missed this dropping, but glad you guys reacted to it!
So a bit of the reason why this resonates so strongly for me is because what actually turned me into an atheist was one summer when I was a kid I actually decided to sit down and read the Bible. All of it. In order.
When you actually read it with the full context like that. . . It just felt so similar to every other mythology I'd ever read. There's even parts that seemed to be damn near plagerised from the Egyptians. And quite frankly, it's very clearly written by a bunch of different people who have very different ideas. Even in the new testament some of the books (from different people) contradict each other.
So at the end of the day, the question really becomes, why do I believe these people I've never met, versus any other religion? They have no more evidence backing their claims and their book has just as much murder, incest, rape as the Greeks, or the Vikings did. What's the reason I believe in this religion rather than Hinduism? And the answer is, because I was raised to. Why was I raised to? Well, half of my ancestors are English, who were converted to Christianity by the sword. The other half were slaves, who were forced to convert by their masters.
And now I believe in that religion because it was passed down from there, versus my African ancestors who had their own gods, and the English tribes who had their own gods. . .
So the reason it's this God boils down to his believers were better armed? Not exactly convincing.
So then I started analyzing the likelihood of various religions and at the end of the day, every single one eventually boils down to the same problem. It always boils down to some dude saying, "trust me."
The beings are never visible, but there are always grave consequences if you choose not to believe in them. They never are reachable, they don't reply to mail, but they deliver messages through assigned proxies.
Then you find yourself thinking of modern day spiritual gurus and the like. . . We all believe they're making it up, but they amass followers. They get adoration, power, respect, money. . . It's not like they have no incentive to lie.
Abraham founded an entire nation based on his claims.
So at some point it just becomes a question of, "How could I trust that these people I've never met, who clearly stood to gain so much with these stories, are telling the truth?"
They offer no proof other than the words that speak. And when you look for it you're told the answer is the words themselves, which, aren't particularly unique, and faith.
Anyway, so I get his annoyance as someone who also went through a journey like him, you see this thing that there's zero evidence is true, with so much power, and while yes, good things are done in its name, the vast majority of wars, genocides, slavery and other atrocities are justified by it. Even today we go to war as a "Christian nation", with people calling"God bless America" and "God bless the troops." And this starts to feel like a very dangerous thing and not a harmless personal belief.
Damn, I wrote a novel 😂 my bad
Your comment is really interesting and was fascinating to read. I was raised in a pretty non religious environment. My family is from former East Germany where religion wasn’t much of a thing compared to the West, I was born years after wall came down tho.
But I was given the freedom to decide for myself if religion was something for me or not. So I sat down just like you described and read most of the bible as well as the quran.
And it was just like you described: I couldn’t see those texts and stories as anything more than mythology and well, just stories. I thought about the people and entities in those books in the same way as when I read mythology books on norse or greek gods or Grimm‘s fairytales.
When people draw strength from religion and their faith when needed, who am I to judge or disapprove? But I have major problems with institutionalised religion. For me, when thinking about human history, the bad sides overweigh with religion overall.
@@fenudel2734 Thank you! I wrote so much I figured no one would even read it. I'm glad it was appreciated by someone. :-)
Random that you're from former East Germany, I'm actually in Berlin right now for the first time. Flew in yesterday. Small world.
I haven't read the whole Quran, but I did read a fair bit of that as well, both religions as practiced I think veer pretty far from how I would interpret them, but like you, it's pretty hard for me to look at these as anything other than mythology. It's hard to believe how many events in world history are justified or caused by these stories
Reading the Bible for confirmation class is what made me an athiest too.
add to this, the fact that people wrote the bible back in a time where science didn't have a lot of answers. everything unexplainable was just magic back then
Great video, enjoyed your reaction. I think the trap that religious people fall into is to think ‘All the evidence I need is what I know in my head and feel in my heart and what I know to be true’, but that isn’t really evidence for it being true, that’s just a statement about how much you believe it - and also how limiting your perspective is.
Faith is the word used to justify a belief when there is insufficient evidence. For something that seems so important in so many lives of people who are believers, it seems strange to me that it has so little basis in reality. I am not sure if you use faith to determine the truth of anything else in your life that is not biblical. I suspect not, because faith can be used to justify absolutely anything.
Great to see some different reactions to one of Tim's songs. Tim is not being disrespectful to religion as a whole. He is merely drawing attention to the glaring inconsistencies between the stories of religion, the actions of numerous church elders and the modern practice of 'witnessing', or 'laying hands on' people.
I absolutely respect your right to believe what you choose to believe. However, to go through your reaction saying things like Tim is taking a larger world view over a single event, so you could understand his view, even if it differs from your personal view. Perfectly fine and good discussion of peoples' thoughts on religion.
However, to then label this performance as "the most petty thing you have ever seen"? Then you nail your flag to the post. and open yourself up for some scrutiny. There is nothing 'petty' in that performance. What you have is intelligent questioning of certain beliefs held by certain sectors of the religious community. The problem is that Tim stepped on some toes that made you feel uncomfortable and led you to disparage his performance. I think that was a cheap shot that ended a video poorly; one that was otherwise a rational and engaging.
I am not trying to change your minds, just leave out the weak shots. Combat it with facts, not insults.
Sorry to post a bit of a negative comment. I wish you both well.
I mean as an atheist who agrees with everything that Tim said in this song, I agree that the song is incredibly petty. That's part of the comedy of it in my opinion. It's an over the top rebuttal to a very weak argument. It's petty in a funny way of just how hard he went to mock Sam lol
@De & Dre: What I really like about your reaction is that even if you don't see eye to eye with Tim, you are very self concious and respectful in your criticism. Really love that! Keep it going!
Glad you guys made it to this and dug it! It's awesome hearing people with strong beliefs be able to talk about both sides of a difficult topic which is what I was excited for with this!
Other Tim songs that I think you might enjoy or have fun with -
The Pope - Definitely a conversation song, though short and very vulgar (purposefully), but definitely sends a message.
Dark Side and Rock N Roll Nerd are both great songs that talk more about Tim as a person and show off his musical talents way more. For Dark Side, it seems like most people enjoy the one he does solo on the piano titled 'Dark side The Awesome Version'
White Wine in the Sun - is a beautiful Christmas song different from most of his other stuff, and it references some Australian traditions like it being sunny and warm in Australia for Christmas, but it challenges some of the topics Christmas originally represented while also telling why its still special to him. I think you'd enjoy breaking it down.
And then songs like Confessions, If I Didn't have You & Lullaby are hilarious and showcase his actually comedy act, but might not be as deep to dissect (though I do really enjoy If I didn't have You and think it does still have a burried meaning)
Hope you enjoy if you go more down the rabbit hole!
I would just like to add I think "storm" needs to be a part of the religious conversation that "thank you God" just created.
@@JivedSonen Storm is about pseudoscience, but it is also about believing things without evidence.
@@terryfall8915 correct... Believing in things such as God.... I'm glad you understood the song
Minchin is neither petty or bitter, suggesting he is is an extremely defensive reaction. He's pointing out the absurdity of how relgious people attribute anything good to their chosen god without considering the reality of the situation. Just because someone doesn't believe in your chosen god doesn't mean they're bitter or damaged and suggesting it does is why people write songs like this one.
It was very interesting watching people trying to undersand Tim Minchin's song, but being afraid of understanding it.
I did love watching it. You do look intelligent enough to eventually understand the way the world is.
Storm is another song (beat poem) from Tim that you should cover. Also very thought provoking.
Epic song...
Every time a joke is analysed 3 comedians die.
Certainly not "petty", but if you wanna see how deep he'll go to write a personal piece:
He also has a song with this orchestra about how much he enjoys cheese 😂
Tim's a genius
Lol he's not 'petty'. It's odd seeing people who've been brainwashed I to one way of thinking struggling when presented with truth. I think deep down these men are intelligent enough to know they've been conned their whole life.
They are not intelligent, they struggled to understand reality and meanwhile intelligent people laugh at them.. they still don't get it😂😂😂😂😂😂
I'm the most proud Patreon subscriber of yours right now. The level of depth that you gentlemen get to and the way you see and break things down is impeccable! Kudos.
Depth? We must have been watching different reactions... as a side note Sam and your god are bothe fictional. Also Sam and Jesus ar most likely based on several figures, damn did i just go in to more depth then these 2 dudes.
It's cute they think many of us Atheists haven't read the Bible.
"The best book to read to become an atheist is the Bible." -- Isaac Asimov (paraphrasing).
i'm agnostic. never been a member of a church. as i've gotten older i've seen how important a church and religion can be to different communities and i completely respect that and don't question a persons reasons for being a part of that. i also think tim is freaking hilarious. awesome video guys.
Brilliant reaction. I've watched a few and I love the way that you naturally complement each other and give the other 'space to speak'. Keep them coming.
For me, the question is, was there ever actually a Sam? Or do we believe Sam exists because of a story we were told?
Nah he is not bitter, he is just a truthier!
Hi, guys! My answer to: Is this necessary to mock somebody else's experience, just because it is different? No it is not, but this opinion was about to be pushed onto him, so he pushes back.
'Subjective truth' is a fond nickname for self deception..
There's no such thing as subjective truth in religion. There is provable, testable, irrefutable fact or unfounded belief.
@@ct5625 right, self deception..
'a million candles for the help that never came'..
As an Australian I’m so proud of Tim and another Australian Jim Jefferies comedian working in the USA …both atheists. Jim’s hilarious on god. Google him. I’m an atheist too. It just does my head in that so many people believe in religion with absolutely not a single bit of proof. Why did they stop believing in Santa 🎅 there is absolutely no difference that I can see. I don’t know a single Aussie who goes to church or mentions religion. So many Christian churches have been closed and turned into bars and restaurants..a much better use for them.
I liked how you all discussed it from different perspectives without judging. Well done.
Tim Minchin actually went to a Christian school… can you imagine the hard time he would have given to his religious studies teacher… 😊
He actually rhymes Ophthalmologist.
How wonderful life can be when we come across people like Tim Minchin ❤
You know, I'm a big fan of how you guys can see not only the artistry but also the alternate viewpoint to your own and discuss them thoughtfully without being dismissive.
It's great to see
I agree with others that "Storm" should be the next conversation starter, but I admit I am kind of curious to see how far you can be pushed to the limits of offense and outrage with "Ten foot clock and a few hundred virgins". Besides the outrageous nature of it, it actually contains some of the most impressive coordination of rhythm, lyrics and melody.
Storm: ruclips.net/video/rrgFIlnmrGk/видео.html
Ten foot clock: ruclips.net/video/J29LHAoY_FU/видео.html
@@kib6793 This (first?) version of Storm is the masterpiece. The acting is particularly brilliant.
@@fliprim Agreed on Storm, first performances are always the best ones, IMO because the audience doesn't already know the punchlines, and the performer gets more of a buzz from getting that first time audience reaction. Fortunately De & Dre have so far reacted to the best version of Thank You God, and the best version of Prejudice. There are other versions of these songs where Tim is smirking before the punchlines because he knows the audience is already in on it, so definitely the originals are better.
Regarding Ten foot clock, I should probably take back that recommendation! 🙂 Tim himself warns that the vulgarity in this song is best avoided if you hold religion dear, which is totally fair. i.e. If you are religious, this song is not for you. On the other hand, if you are desensitised to all of that sort of thing and are able to listen to the message without being triggered by any of the vulgar and offensive language, then you'll be able to better appreciate the artistry with which it was composed and performed.
As to why Tim chooses to write such songs. I think "Beauty" is an amazingly and ironically beautiful song about why he chooses not to follow that easy path of beauty (with a few exceptions), and considers it a distraction from his true path of satire and rage.
Tim is not upset and no I don't think it is inappropriate for him to respond. Just because you believe in a God that does not mean you should be telling others how to live. It's not cool to pushbyour beliefs onto others who don't believe. If you want people to be respectful of your religious ideologies then you need to show respect in return and not try to indoctrinate atheists.
man these guys came so close to getting it.
No they didn't, these guys are the apitomiy of" as thick as two short planks"😂😂😂😂😂
I have a Christian friend who I often debate. She told me that a friend of hers was sick for two years and got better once she prayed for him.
I asked the obvious questions.
Did he ever pray for himself?
In the two years, did anyone else pray for him.
Was that the first time she prayed for him.
She apologized everything away. As usual.
I think you'd find "If I Didn't Have You" fascinating. If you do it, make sure you get the version with him talking about it afterward. I think you two would really enjoy "Storm" too.
Tim is a rationalist. He follows the null hypothesis.
Magic has never been be proved as an answer. Miracle and magic are definitionally the same.
Thank you, guys, for a very thoughtful discussion.
What makes you think atheists are bitter? We generally grow up, get educated and stop believing in mythical beings like Santa, fairies and gods
it's the same sort of reasoning as incels use: "standards not met" = "bitter/angry" ie if I refuse to lower my standards for someone, I surely must be the one who is flawed & not the other way around, right? Right?
There really is a genius to Tim’s writing, thank you god is basically facts over faith.
Storm, the pope song, if I didn’t have you and not perfect are others by him that are must hears.
Love your guys take on his stuff, very well thought out.
I like seeing intelligent people react to his songs, going to subscribe.
And you’re correct, it’s fantastically petty lol
In addition to what others have said regarding Tim's point being about evidence (which is kinda irrelevant to believers because it devolves into the faith-vs-evidence bickering that never goes anywhere), I think there is something else, too. A lot of believers, when they encounter an atheist, have this reaction like "but why?" they need a REASON or CAUSE for the person to be an atheist. Atheists are "sick" or "broken" in their eyes. Someone must have hurt them. They must be damaged in some way to be this "negative" and "cynical". They must just not get it. I bet if I talk to them, I can help heal them or help them get their head right. And in their minds, that's doing good work. But the INSTANT an atheist tries to do anything like that to try and persuade a believer to go the other way, all of a sudden it's like, "Woah, this guy's kind of an asshole. Why can't he just leave people alone?" And so one of Tim's points too is like... atheists aren't damaged or mad or anything. They're just normal. They don't believe in god just like some people don't smoke. They're not MAD. They just don't do that. They might be able to tell you some good reasons, but they also honestly don't need one! But people are always giving them crap about it and treating them like jerks, but they just don't smoke and they're happy with it! They didn't get hurt by a smoker as a kid or anything. It's not that deep. But it's just frustrating that it's always like, whatever religious people think, hey, that's their way, leave them alone. Whatever atheists think, wow, that guy's an asshole. A lot of atheists just keep quiet cuz it's not worth it, but Tim is one of these guys who's like, well, I'm confident in what I think, and if you think that makes me an asshole, then alright, here goes!
At the end of this interview, Tim talks about 'Thank you God'. He says he used the principle Occam's Razor to show how there are many simpler explanations of experiences like Sam's mum than the existence and intervention of a higher power. ruclips.net/video/0pX9PxGQGlQ/видео.html
LOL!! Why so serious?......ITS COMEDY!!🤣
He was not apologizing just explaining the nature to how he wrote this song
Love the format of your reactions - love the examination of the ideas, the discussion
Tim Minchin is self taught pianist - he is a genius. This song needs to be taken in context of when this concert was preformed - it was during the time that the churches and their child abuse were forefront in the news.
And that would smoothly lead us to Pope Song ...
In his own lane, I don’t think anyone could say any more or less about Tim. That should be his tagline/ #. You nailed it and brought a good message.
It's the season for Tim Minchin's White Wine in the Sun, and I also believe you'll just really like it. Thank you for another great reaction video.
You guys both articulated thoughts and feelings I have every time i see/hear a Tim Minchin performance for the first time. It's very satisfying when you find intelligent and thoughtful commentary especially when it pertains to someone who is so unique. To hear someone elses views about someone you admire spoken with such respect and clarity is such a validation of ones initial reactions...they seem to get what it is that this musical comedian manages to convey so effortlessly.
Fair play to you guys for listening to, considering and discussing this! 👍
This was fucking brilliant.
'It takes growth and maturity'.....
and then the old epithets are trundled out (oh, he must be angry, something in his life turned him against religion, etcetera). No, Tim has assessed the evidence, or rather the lack of it, and has no time for irrational codswallop (that's BS for our American cousins).
I am a Christian but still find Tim hilariously clever. I believe it's a fragile faith is bothered by this. My faiths pretty solid so I just find it clever word play. I never believed God was in service to serve our wishes. As a person who has suffered a great deal my belief in God helped me cope. His rant about the pope is even more cutting.
Warning, these are my views, as an athiest. If you are religious and think this could offend you in any way, please don't read. And as with all groups of people this doesn't mean to attack all religious people, just certain aspects of the religion, as well as certain actions of the believers
I can empathize with Tim's view here, mostly due to 1, I have the same non beliefs as him as an athiest, and 2, I have been in a similar situation. What isn't often talked about is the villianization athiest often experience. Even if it doesn't seem like it at first, what Sam attempted to do there was tell an anecdotal emotional story, which Tim can't dissprove, and because it is emotionally driven, many people would call Tim a jerk for responding how he did. Many religious people like to position themselves as heroes or victims,as they believe they can do no wrong, and when people speak out against them, that person is in the wrong.
This tendency makes it nigh-impossible to achieve anything in a debate of religion as regardless of the points made, most religious people will say "well I experienced XYZ" or "Well XYZ happened so god must be real" both points are completely subjective and anecdotal, there is no evidence brought to the table there, and when you attempt to debate that point you are then seen as the villian for doing so.
Another common phrase that is designed to attack the morality of athiesm, is "How can you reject our creator?" Because it sets a wrong precedent, athiesm isn't REJECTING a god, it is the lack of belief that there is one. But by wording it the way they very often do, it places athiesm in the roll of evil, as we are seen as rejecting the omnibenevolent creator, which then places whomever the religious person is in a state abject morality, where they accept the creator. Even when that is by no means what the arguement is about, it is about belief, not rejection.
What annoys me the most about this is throughout all of our history, christianity/catholicism has very often caused more harm then good. Whether it be bigotry towards homosexuality which PREDATES the very religion itself, or the crusades, the witch trials, the sensless war, etc. Yet, they try to place themselves on his pedastal of morality atop the countless masses they have oppressed. Many a time I have debated religion with catholics and almost every single time when the crusades are braught up they reply with something along the lines of, "Oh, we denounce that pope" which means nothing, your pope still caused it to happen.
That is all to say, the I empathize with Tim here because the attempt Sam made at placing himself on a moral highground is beyond annoying and pointless.
21:02 the ironic thing about that point is that is the very reason relgion exists to begin with. at one point humans had NO answers, they heard thunder as roars, and wind as screams. When offered no explanation one must make their own, as such religions progressively began to form, which is why there are so many in existence today, the vast majority of people did the samething, jewish people, egyptians, greeks, etc. We all wanted a reason and formed our own.
This section will be under the belief god is real, for the point of argument.
Now, to actually debate sams point, I will be focusin on the assumed morality of god. To do that we must look at what god is written to be, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Let's work in reverse order.
Omnibenevolent(All-good): God being all-good require him to have a permanent position of the highest morality. Before Sam's story we could assume he played his role as a passive observer allowing humanity to do what it will on its own. But due to sam's story we know this is not the case as he got involved. Which means he is very willing to play an active role in this world, but this disproves him being all good as the vast amount of 'sin' throughout the world. Sure you could say he wishes us to make our own decision, but what about the countless diseases plaguing our world? Well, maybe he wants us to help ourselves, but then, why are there so many other people whom have cateracts yet aren't offered assistance? Is it because they didn't pray? Why would an omnibenevolent deity be so petty as to punish a person simply for non-belief.
"For you shall worship no other god, for the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god."(Exodus 34:14): Jealousy is almost entirely seen as a negative emotion, a flaw if you will, a form of envy, which an all-good god shouldn't possess.
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and r*pes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the woman for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) Now, I assume the vas majority of people would dissagree with this sentiment, yet, the bible says so, which was supposedly written by god, who is all-good, so does that mean this should be something commonplace in our society?
There are countless other stories showing the questionable morals of this supposed benevolent deity. Samson(Judges 16:15-17) Granted power the caveat being he couldn't cut his hair, his wife had someone do so while he was sleeping and god punished him for it even though he played no role in the action. Job who god allowed satan to ruin. Abraham, told to kill his son. There are so many stories of this occuring.
Omniscient(all-knowing): God must have known these tragedies were going on, as well as their outcomes yet still allowed all of it. He knew how lucifer would turn out, he knew Job would stay loyal, he knew Abraham would side with him, he knew what Adam and Eve would do, and decided he would do all of this regardless.
Omnipresent: God is everywhere therefore he could always help all in need yet chooses not to.
Omnipotent(All powerful): God has the capacity to save everyone yet chooses not to. He very well could save every person, cure every illness, grant evidence, and save the world, yet he chooses not to.
In conclusion of this section, god is able, knowing, and supposedly desires for good to exist, yet repeatedly chooses not to support good. He picks and chooses who he grants his assistance, he ruins lives simply to prove they would still believe, he does all of these horrific things, and yet, by definition they must be good, as he is the definition of good. So, I ask you, should I allow my employee's life to be ruined to see if he would remain loyal? Should I turn away people who are dying to assist a person with a minor back ache simply because they believe in me?
"For in six days the lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. But he rested on the seventh day." (Exodus 20:11) An OMNIPOTENT deity required REST? By its very nature omnipotence would set everything to the same level of effort, whether it be breathing or creating realms, NOTHING could cause any level of strain. So by the very definition of all powerful, god isn't.
Look, I do not hate those that wish to believe in a higher power, but it would be pointless, and immoral not to atleast express my views and show the various paradoxes as well as hipocritical statements within the bible. If you wish to believe in your god, do so. But remember this, and remember this always, you believe in only one more god then I do, for the god you believe in is 1 of a thousand options. Do not cast judgement on athiests for you are barely different, as just like me, you don't believe in countless other religions.
Either way, I am not all knowing, so I would be an absolute fool to say that a god couldn't exist, but I doubt any of the religions are correct as all of them have their flaws. I simply targetted christianity as it is the largest religion in my area, and the one I am most faces with. Do not feel attacked as both of us could be wrong as well, in the end we won't know until we die.
Its about shining a light on delusional and dogmatic thinking.
You absolutely must do a video about Tim menchins "storm"
15:00 the "few bad apples" argument for the reputation of church/god does not work when it's mostly bad apples. The god-fearing do almost nothing for others in proportion to what they do for themselves
I’d love to see you guys react to Tim Minchin’s “rock and roll nerd” or “dark side”
Absolutely Brilliant Comments! Tim Minchin is a Fantastic comic, with such intellect. I absolutely love how he very intelligently takes down the human belief system!!!!
Tim is brilliant 😂❤😂❤
Love these guys
Their willingness to listen
Tim’s a genius
My grandfather was a atheist surrounded by Catholics Methodist etc
He was the best most generous, kindest person I’ve ever known I know he is in Heaven
Tim Minchin didn't just burn him. He placed him in the oven, turned it up to 500 degrees and cooked him alive! LOL
Keep going with Tim Minchin guys. His creativity and writing are ridiculously good...and petty
This is polemic couched in comedy, and done brilliantly.
On another level, it’s just comedy 🤷♂️
I think for the pinnacle of petty, Song for Phil Daoust wins. Also hilarious!
Hands down his most petty song and he makes zero effort to hide it.
I think one of the main points he's trying to get across is that anecdotal evidence isn't enough in the face of all the things god allows, did in the Bible and what his followers have done in his name or have covered up to protect the church.
I heartily recommend watching more of Tim's stuff Fuck the Pope is a very vulgar but understandably so when you are faced with he context.
Other songs to watch that are great would be "fence" which shows his point of view about the world. "Cont." Which shows some of how dark his comedy can be. "3 minute song" a perfect example of his humour and his genius command of words
I really enjoy your thoughtful reaction and analysis!! Definitely new subscriber. ❤
Just discovered Tim, which led me to your channel. Love him and your reaction. Critical thinking in action! It’s not easy being an atheist and having Christianity shoved down your throat your entire life. All the best!
What a fantastic reaction to this extremely clever and controversial song. As a Christian I love an intelligent atheist and Tim is one of the best. Loved your discussion and analysis respecting the 2 different beliefs and messages of Tim and Sam. Please check out his other stuff. He also has a debate with Russell Brand on Rationalism v Spirituality. They are at opposing ends of the spectrum and very well matched in intelligence, confidence and kindness. Thanks again
Love your thoughtful analyses so much. I was so happy to have discovered Minchin and a brilliant, talented artist who felt exactly as I do about religion. I appreciate you guys’ perspectives and comments so much. “He’s so petty” is the funniest thing I’ve ever heard.
To get a fuller picture of the quality of his song writing and intelligence without covering race or religion - look at 'Not Perfect', 'If I didn't have you' or 'White wine in the Sun'.
Thank you for this truthful reaction. I enjoyed it very much.
I really enjoyed your discussion here. Thanks for sharing
I'm agnostic/atheist. One of the things that bothers me that believers (typically Christian/Catholic folk) do is try to justify why a person is atheist. And you guys actually did it in this video, and it's always the SAME justification. "Something must have happened to them in the past that made them hate religion/god (trauma)". This is a fine theory in itself, cause there are for sure people out there where this applies to them. But the reality of it is this; it does not apply to ALL atheist people. I myself had bad experiences in church when I was younger, but as an adult, I can clearly separate those bad experiences, from what the foundation of my world view falls upon. To clarify what I mean here, it's exactly as Tim says in his opening monologue/story before the song starts. It's just evidence based. I don't view every physical thing around me, or nature in general, as proof of a god. There are other, more concrete explanations on how these things came to be. There's far more evidence in favor of evolution based theories. Past this, you just get into arguments on philosophy and what not. But what still stands true, to me at least, is that my bad experiences within the church(es) are separate from how I came to my world view. I would say, however, they aren't entirely mutually exclusive from one another, because those experiences for sure pushed me in a direction to look elsewhere for explanations for things. I don't harbor hate or ill-will towards the people who gave me bad experiences, nor do I hate god (I don't believe in any particular one god, so logically I can't really, truly hate something I don't think exists).
Creates dialogue - you get Tim Minchin, glad I watched you react to another of his songs
Dark Side (Awesome Version) shows his piano playing on another level. Storm is a different style for him as is If I Didn’t Have You
To see Tim's human side watch white wine in the sun. It's a Christmas song. Note tim is Australian and it is summer at christmas and in Perth where he hails from can realistically be 100F or more on Christmas day.