All the Advent Pioneers believed from their understanding of present truth that the sealing of the 144 000refers to a literal number. J.N. Loughborough wrote a small booklet in 1916, titled: "Questions on the Sealing Message." If you have EGW's writings on your computer, and it contains - Words of the Adventist Pioneers - to click on. Into the word search bar put in the title of this booklet in quotation marks and it will come up.
Why do people think that everything has to be literal OR symbolic? All through the Bible we see things that are often BOTH literal and symbolic at the same time. (1) How many disciples were there? Twelve. That is literal but it obviously represents the 12 tribes at the same time. And when Judas died they replaced him. So the number was significant. (2) Jesus told Peter that we have to forgive people 70 x 7. That's symbolic but guess what? When in Daniel 9 God told Israel to make an end of sins how much probation did He give them as a people? 490 years which is literally 70 x 7. (3) When God gave Israel a king, King Saul in His wrath, there were also 490 years probation till Babylonian captivity. Yes, 70 x 7. (4) Look at Moses' life. 40 symbolizes water or wilderness (lack of water) in gematria. At age 40 Moses fled to the wilderness. 40 years later he was called to go back in the wilderness and he remained in that wilderness for 40 years. That is very symbolic but it literally happened. (5) Look at Joseph. After living with his father for 17 years he was kidnapped and sold into Egypt. When his father finally came to live in Egypt with him, it was for how many years? You guessed it - 17 years. (6) I could go on and on especially with the 1260 days prophecy experienced in different ages by Elijah, Jesus, the saints in the Dark Ages, the The Two Witnesses etc. The Defining Quote The way Ellen White phrased the following does it for me: Early Writings page 14 "The living saints, 144,000 in number,..." Yes the number has some symbolic aspects but how could that not be literal too phrased like that? People say it is too small to be literal. No, actually it is quite a big number for what I see happening with galloping ahem creeping compromise on every hand. And that is without counting that the end will be a time of trouble such as never was. Remember too that is not the number of people to be saved. That is just the number of the living saints.
I am very sure that the 144,000 is a correct number when I look at the churches. Ellen White said that not even one in 20 in the church book would be born again in the Spirit. I was born again and only this year. I thought all my life that I was saved. When you are born again, you know it. I have felt the Holy Spirit change my life completely within a few days and I don't want to do anything else but talk about Jesus and the Father. I even assume that I am one of the only ones who has been born again in my church. It makes me sad. I haven't overcome all my sins yet, but I know I will through faith in Jesus. Satan tries to pull me away from Jesus so often. I can literally feel it. He keeps showing me all the sins in front of my eyes and I keep falling for it. God alone knows who has the truth and is saved. I have no right to call myself saved. So often I doubt and feel like the biggest hypocrite. But the 144,000 are definitely not symbolic
@earlysda, Thanks. I posted something similar in my Facebook group with pics, including showing the symbolic legs of Rome in Daniel 2 with a stone at its feet are like Italy on a map shaped like a literal leg in high heel shoes with Sicily looking like a jagged rock. Incidentally Italy is referred to in real as "the boot of Italy."
According to the doctrine of the doomsday cult of Jehovah's Witnesses, the date of 1935 was the date when the number of 144,000 was to be sealed. Since 1935 the number of anointed had been dropping each year at the memorial which seemed to argue that the number was literal, but since the 2000s the number of anointed has only increased each year. Soon this fundamentalist cult will be forced to invent a new light to transform the literal meaning into the symbolic meaning as it has already done by twisting the words of Jesus to transform the generation of 1914 which no longer exists into a double generation in order to artificially lengthen this generation of 1914 which no longer exists. The passage of time is a powerful revealer and this cult knows that there is not much time left before it disappears from the face of the earth.
Four generations of SDAs still can't figure this out? Were the 2,300 days "spiritual" or symbolic or literal? Because "days" were symbolic, that didn't make the number 2,300 spiritual or symbolic. 2,300 still equalled 2,300. The same with the 1,260 days. 1,260 still equalled 1,260 days. Just because the tribes are symbolic of part of the remnant church, doesn't mean that the number 144,000 is symbolic. 144,000 still equals 144,000. The number is literal and exact. Just one of many points, why would we be instructed to be "among them" if the number is symbolic and represent the entire remnant church?
The fact that they are "first fruits" indicates that they are part of a larger number and there's no proof anywhere that they are the only ones that will pass the last test for the human race. They are the only ones who will be alive after the close of probation and the only ones, of those who pass the final test, that will be translated to Heaven. They will live through the 7 last plagues and see the Lord returning in glory. Read about their experience in The Great Controversy, Chapter 40 - God's People Delivered.
I've heard countless of debate on the fate of those saints that were raised.....they never mentioned what happened to them nor was it witnessed by any of the disciples, but I believe somewhere EGW said Christ took them to heaven with him and I strongly believe that......these saints resusrected with a glorified body( like Christ)and never to see death again
It is my understanding that they are the ones ministering with Christ in the heavenly sanctuary revelation 5: 7-10. 24 elders as of old Israel representatives of the people... For thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future) on the earth.
They represented the wave offerings...when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive (prisoners of war)... having spoiled principalities,and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it (these are they that came out of the graves as Christ arose) Colossians 2:15/Isaiah 49:24-25, Ephesians 4:8; before the Heavenly Father as the conquering LORD, mighty in battle PS 24 have a look at Leviticus 23 I hope it answers your question ⁉️❤😊
To say that the disciples did not see this may be true for some of them but not all for it is recorded in the book of Matthews who was Christ disciple. Let's read microscopically as elder randy skeete would say 😂 verse 50 Christ yielded up the Ghost(died) 51 veil rent in two end of earthly sanctuary sacrifices followed by earthquake. 52graves open many saints arose after his resurrection, the went into Jerusalem and was seen by many. So there were many witnesses that wer testifying.
Making a show of them means he... Through death he might destroy him that had power of death, that is the devil:.. Hebrews 2:14 revelation 1:18 .. have the keys(power) to hell(grave) and of death(to make alive).
I looked up the greek word for the 12000, and it was literally a slang term 12 reference to the 12 deciples. Then the 144000 is broken down by terms, a hundred which can mean a literal hundred or 💯 percent, 100 fold. Forty can say literally 40 or a period of time that prepared us by trials or tribulations, like Jesus was in the desert fasting for 40 days. Then four, is a literal number 4 or can mean completion by perfection. A thousand can mean 1000 but, was also a term that meant all of them. So if we take these broken down, One hundred percent of those prepared during the time of tribulation made perfect by (Christ Jesus), all of those who are (born again.) Every single one. It was something like that, yall can look it up for yourself and see if you still think it is just a number, or if the words are other translations.
Literal!!! Need to look how precise God was when He was giving the instructions about the tabernace and worshipping in it. All the measurements, all the clothing of the priests and levites, all the materials were used, all the vessels, rituals etc etc were precisely given. In smallest detailes. So the 144.000 will be the special ppl from earth and they will be serving at the Tample in the heaven. So if everything was giving by God so precised to worship in the earth as an example what is in heaven so the 144.000 number is also real number, literal. That's is my conclusion.
How about this statement in 5T p 208 in the seal of God chapter it says: "but when the figures reach a certain amount which God has fixed, the ministry of His wrath commences. The account is closed, Divine patience ceases. There is no more pleading of mercy in their behalf". 5T p.208
@@Purcella13 good question...I am still studying this...Like someone wrote earlier, we need to just worry about ourselves and look at our own hearts daily and repent and have that personal relationship with Christ daily, because if we don't we will drive ourselves CRAZY and never be ready! Since I don't have the answer I think about it this way...Why worry even if it's a literal number..I take 144,000 divided by 7 continents, (remnant from all 4 corners of the earth) then divide by 50 states (USA) that's 411 per state and my state of California has over 38 million people!!! We need to look at ourselves daily and PRAY to be transformed to the have the CHARACTER of Christ💞
Why would God predetermine the number of living saints that will be sealed? God in His nature gives every one a fair chance and I do not believe that He would ever make a set number for those that will be translated without seeing death. What if other persons repent, do they then not have a chance to be saved because the number of living saints has already been capped? The number has to be symbolic as far as I can see. There will be billions of people that are alive at the time of God's coming and you mean to tell me that only 144,000 living saints will exist at the time of Christ's coming? What about the many that will come to see the truth and the light and reject the mark of the beast who are not Seventh Day Adventist's?
If this number is literal, then less than 2% of people will be saved.....there are millions of Christians that will be in heaven.....I let common sense be the judge
The 144,000, (Rev.7:4-8), is not saying "how many" will be saved. It is speaking of the number of witnesses, 12,000 from each of the tribes of ISRAEL that will be sealed to preach the gospel, (witnesses), on earth during the Tribulation period. This could very easily be a LITERAL number! However, Scripture tells us, in regards to how many will actually be saved, that the number is UNABLE to be counted! (Rev.7:9)
All the Advent Pioneers believed from their understanding of present truth that the sealing of the 144 000refers to a literal number. J.N. Loughborough wrote a small booklet in 1916, titled: "Questions on the Sealing Message." If you have EGW's writings on your computer, and it contains - Words of the Adventist Pioneers - to click on. Into the word search bar put in the title of this booklet in quotation marks and it will come up.
Very true!
Thank you sister
Excellently answered. Praise God!!
Amen.🙏🙏🙏
Worst fence-sitting answer ever.
"The living saints, 144,000, in number," Ellen White in "To the Remnant Scattered Abroad"
Why do people think that everything has to be literal OR symbolic? All through the Bible we see things that are often BOTH literal and symbolic at the same time.
(1) How many disciples were there? Twelve. That is literal but it obviously represents the 12 tribes at the same time. And when Judas died they replaced him. So the number was significant.
(2) Jesus told Peter that we have to forgive people 70 x 7. That's symbolic but guess what? When in Daniel 9 God told Israel to make an end of sins how much probation did He give them as a people? 490 years which is literally 70 x 7.
(3) When God gave Israel a king, King Saul in His wrath, there were also 490 years probation till Babylonian captivity. Yes, 70 x 7.
(4) Look at Moses' life. 40 symbolizes water or wilderness (lack of water) in gematria. At age 40 Moses fled to the wilderness. 40 years later he was called to go back in the wilderness and he remained in that wilderness for 40 years. That is very symbolic but it literally happened.
(5) Look at Joseph. After living with his father for 17 years he was kidnapped and sold into Egypt. When his father finally came to live in Egypt with him, it was for how many years? You guessed it - 17 years.
(6) I could go on and on especially with the 1260 days prophecy experienced in different ages by Elijah, Jesus, the saints in the Dark Ages, the The Two Witnesses etc.
The Defining Quote
The way Ellen White phrased the following does it for me:
Early Writings page 14
"The living saints, 144,000 in number,..."
Yes the number has some symbolic aspects but how could that not be literal too phrased like that? People say it is too small to be literal. No, actually it is quite a big number for what I see happening with galloping ahem creeping compromise on every hand. And that is without counting that the end will be a time of trouble such as never was. Remember too that is not the number of people to be saved. That is just the number of the living saints.
I am very sure that the 144,000 is a correct number when I look at the churches. Ellen White said that not even one in 20 in the church book would be born again in the Spirit. I was born again and only this year. I thought all my life that I was saved. When you are born again, you know it. I have felt the Holy Spirit change my life completely within a few days and I don't want to do anything else but talk about Jesus and the Father. I even assume that I am one of the only ones who has been born again in my church. It makes me sad. I haven't overcome all my sins yet, but I know I will through faith in Jesus. Satan tries to pull me away from Jesus so often. I can literally feel it. He keeps showing me all the sins in front of my eyes and I keep falling for it. God alone knows who has the truth and is saved. I have no right to call myself saved. So often I doubt and feel like the biggest hypocrite. But the 144,000 are definitely not symbolic
shel, you have a very truthful, powerful post. You should make a video on this topic. God bless you.
@earlysda, Thanks. I posted something similar in my Facebook group with pics, including showing the symbolic legs of Rome in Daniel 2 with a stone at its feet are like Italy on a map shaped like a literal leg in high heel shoes with Sicily looking like a jagged rock. Incidentally Italy is referred to in real as "the boot of Italy."
@@shelantonioSounds very powerful, shel. May God bless your efforts to spread his eternal truth.
@earlysda, Thanks very much. Same to you.
According to the doctrine of the doomsday cult of Jehovah's Witnesses, the date of 1935 was the date when the number of 144,000 was to be sealed. Since 1935 the number of anointed had been dropping each year at the memorial which seemed to argue that the number was literal, but since the 2000s the number of anointed has only increased each year. Soon this fundamentalist cult will be forced to invent a new light to transform the literal meaning into the symbolic meaning as it has already done by twisting the words of Jesus to transform the generation of 1914 which no longer exists into a double generation in order to artificially lengthen this generation of 1914 which no longer exists. The passage of time is a powerful revealer and this cult knows that there is not much time left before it disappears from the face of the earth.
Yes... worry about yourself, and leave the 144 alone...you dont really want to mess with those guys...
Four generations of SDAs still can't figure this out? Were the 2,300 days "spiritual" or symbolic or literal? Because "days" were symbolic, that didn't make the number 2,300 spiritual or symbolic. 2,300 still equalled 2,300. The same with the 1,260 days. 1,260 still equalled 1,260 days. Just because the tribes are symbolic of part of the remnant church, doesn't mean that the number 144,000 is symbolic. 144,000 still equals 144,000. The number is literal and exact. Just one of many points, why would we be instructed to be "among them" if the number is symbolic and represent the entire remnant church?
The fact that they are "first fruits" indicates that they are part of a larger number and there's no proof anywhere that they are the only ones that will pass the last test for the human race. They are the only ones who will be alive after the close of probation and the only ones, of those who pass the final test, that will be translated to Heaven. They will live through the 7 last plagues and see the Lord returning in glory. Read about their experience in The Great Controversy, Chapter 40 - God's People Delivered.
Es wurde schon lange offenbart nur sogut wie niemand hat es verstanden.
What happened to the saints who's graves were opened when Jesus Christ Rose from the dead?
I've heard countless of debate on the fate of those saints that were raised.....they never mentioned what happened to them nor was it witnessed by any of the disciples, but I believe somewhere EGW said Christ took them to heaven with him and I strongly believe that......these saints resusrected with a glorified body( like Christ)and never to see death again
It is my understanding that they are the ones ministering with Christ in the heavenly sanctuary revelation 5: 7-10. 24 elders as of old Israel representatives of the people... For thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future) on the earth.
They represented the wave offerings...when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive (prisoners of war)... having spoiled principalities,and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it (these are they that came out of the graves as Christ arose) Colossians 2:15/Isaiah 49:24-25, Ephesians 4:8; before the Heavenly Father as the conquering LORD, mighty in battle PS 24 have a look at Leviticus 23 I hope it answers your question ⁉️❤😊
To say that the disciples did not see this may be true for some of them but not all for it is recorded in the book of Matthews who was Christ disciple. Let's read microscopically as elder randy skeete would say 😂 verse 50 Christ yielded up the Ghost(died) 51 veil rent in two end of earthly sanctuary sacrifices followed by earthquake. 52graves open many saints arose after his resurrection, the went into Jerusalem and was seen by many. So there were many witnesses that wer testifying.
Making a show of them means he... Through death he might destroy him that had power of death, that is the devil:.. Hebrews 2:14 revelation 1:18 .. have the keys(power) to hell(grave) and of death(to make alive).
I looked up the greek word for the 12000, and it was literally a slang term 12 reference to the 12 deciples. Then the 144000 is broken down by terms, a hundred which can mean a literal hundred or 💯 percent, 100 fold. Forty can say literally 40 or a period of time that prepared us by trials or tribulations, like Jesus was in the desert fasting for 40 days. Then four, is a literal number 4 or can mean completion by perfection. A thousand can mean 1000 but, was also a term that meant all of them. So if we take these broken down, One hundred percent of those prepared during the time of tribulation made perfect by (Christ Jesus), all of those who are (born again.) Every single one.
It was something like that, yall can look it up for yourself and see if you still think it is just a number, or if the words are other translations.
Literal!!! Need to look how precise God was when He was giving the instructions about the tabernace and worshipping in it. All the measurements, all the clothing of the priests and levites, all the materials were used, all the vessels, rituals etc etc were precisely given. In smallest detailes. So the 144.000 will be the special ppl from earth and they will be serving at the Tample in the heaven. So if everything was giving by God so precised to worship in the earth as an example what is in heaven so the 144.000 number is also real number, literal. That's is my conclusion.
Literal. And not a member of any church. They were formed in the womb for such a time as this
How about this statement in 5T p 208 in the seal of God chapter it says: "but when the figures reach a certain amount which God has fixed, the ministry of His wrath commences. The account is closed, Divine patience ceases. There is no more pleading of mercy in their behalf". 5T p.208
Is the number which God has fixed the number that we have set for ourselves based on our fixed understand or that of truth that God has revealed
@@Purcella13 good question...I am still studying this...Like someone wrote earlier, we need to just worry about ourselves and look at our own hearts daily and repent and have that personal relationship with Christ daily, because if we don't we will drive ourselves CRAZY and never be ready! Since I don't have the answer I think about it this way...Why worry even if it's a literal number..I take 144,000 divided by 7 continents, (remnant from all 4 corners of the earth) then divide by 50 states (USA) that's 411 per state and my state of California has over 38 million people!!! We need to look at ourselves daily and PRAY to be transformed to the have the CHARACTER of Christ💞
Didnt Ellen white say all may join?
Why would God predetermine the number of living saints that will be sealed? God in His nature gives every one a fair chance and I do not believe that He would ever make a set number for those that will be translated without seeing death. What if other persons repent, do they then not have a chance to be saved because the number of living saints has already been capped? The number has to be symbolic as far as I can see. There will be billions of people that are alive at the time of God's coming and you mean to tell me that only 144,000 living saints will exist at the time of Christ's coming? What about the many that will come to see the truth and the light and reject the mark of the beast who are not Seventh Day Adventist's?
If this number is literal, then less than 2% of people will be saved.....there are millions of Christians that will be in heaven.....I let common sense be the judge
The 144,000, (Rev.7:4-8), is not saying "how many" will be saved. It is speaking of the number of witnesses, 12,000 from each of the tribes of ISRAEL that will be sealed to preach the gospel, (witnesses), on earth during the Tribulation period. This could very easily be a LITERAL number! However, Scripture tells us, in regards to how many will actually be saved, that the number is UNABLE to be counted! (Rev.7:9)
Bruce, there are only 144,000 who don't see death.