Submarines, carriers, super carriers, and super ships in general have pushed me away from playing anything higher than T7. Honestly I'm only playing T4-T6 lately which for me is fine. WG's goal has always been to push players to higher tiers but with the introduction of the aforementioned ships I think they're doing the exact opposite.
I can deal with superships as long as they are surface ships. It’s essentially just tier 11 which is fine by me, especially because they aren’t even that great. However, super carriers are broken and subs are just outrageous
Had a conversation about the issues with submarines, and they pretty much snubbed me off and said that people like myself were just playing up the issue. Glad you're here pointing out how bad they are for the game, keep it up dude! Your content is perfect.
You mentioned about the raider style of operations for submarines in real life. There's a lot of examples in this during world war 2, specifically with the Germans when they were sinking allied shipping and the such. If it hasn't been suggested for you already (and if its of interest to you), you may want to check it out. A lot of the history about them is pretty interesting, as well as their engagements.
Yeah, I feel you, but you can't really argue with those clowns. Wg will reign supreme. I am most worried about the support carriers wg wants to add. I do not understand why wg wants to ruin the game by adding more and more carriers and submarines.. it only makes the gameplay more dull and unfun for everyone.
Story time: So we playing with kremlin, venezia, smalland. We clear a flank, except the Sub. The sub was a full pleb though. In full pleb fashion, he figures its smart to surface. I see my RPF switching. I hit the radar. We catch him in like 5.5km or sth. We get some hits in, he dives and probably used DCP. Immediately venezia (very fast cruiser) and smalland with enginge boost (ammong the fastest ships in the game) charge into him. He was bow into us. Surely we will kill him. Krem even gets ASW hits and causes like this oil leak kinda thing. I start deploying my depth charges with smalland, venezia deploys ASW aswell. I end up getting FKIN AIGHT hits on it. New flood included. Venezia gets 2 hits. Kremlin gets some additional hits. And the sub is gone. We never found it again before the game ended. Im not saying im a pro. But that was literally like a 40%er pulling the stupidest move possible, surfacing in front of 3 ships. Bow in. With no backup that can stop us from pushing him. He gets to live. Even though we hit him with guns and well over 10 depth charges. He gets to live. At this point its just comical. WG tries so hard to create ships that do not have any PvP interaction so that the last idiot can do stuff even if he makes every single mistake possible. That was 3 decent players in the 60% WR range catching a 40%er on like 5.5km. And it is literally impossible to convert the kill. Its comical.
I landed 16 depth charges on a Balao in my Z-52 a couple days ago. There was also a Shima, Kremlin, Puerto Rico, and my Div mate (don’t remember what ship he was in) launching their own depth charges and air strikes. The sub had marched though the middle of the map then came to our east flank from the west so he basically had sides on any ship angled to the enemy south of the east flank. I finally got the kill on my 16th depth charge hit and that was while basically just hovering over him as he tried to get away with German hydro banging away on his hull. It was insane.
I play mostly (OP) tier 10 DDs like Smaland, Kleber, etc and I found it very hard after the reintroduction of the subs to play the battles as I should.Sometimes I found myself chasing ghosts around the map, wasting time, damage, PR.Or I’m chased around in my DD by a sub backed by a cruiser, it’s just sad at this point.
@@alexandrublidariu5566 yeah. Ima dd main and spend most of my dd time in my vampire.....i USED to have fun 4 of 5 games in her(only MAYBE dropping that to a 3/5 in CV games)...ill give it 2 of 5 with subs now. Ima 60%er, F2P scrub, who's played since launch, and there is no question I dislike subs more than ANY other change/addition this game has made! Got used to/kinda enjoyed: -adding radar -eliminating ability to fire undetected in the open -smoke mechanics -all the russian-bias ships -and yes, even CVs(tho I don't play them) This, cannot stand in its current state....or even really close to it.
In my Midway, I hit the Balao with 1 thousand pound bomb, four rockets, and 16 127mm secondary hits. Didn't even do half his HP. All while he fluffed three separate torpedo attacks on my while he was in close... The whole thing is dumb.
@@danielbroome5690 Not all IRL tactics work in an arcade game like this. For example, sonar and radar don't work the same irl as they do in the game. Spotting doesn't work the same either. Homing torps don't work the same, depth charges don't work the same, almost nothing works like it did in WW2.
Right? Dropped four fighter squadrons perfectly, got about 6-7 hits, and the guy still survived. It took having to get a DD right overtop of him and forcing him to surface to kill him…
They do plenty, it’s just that we have figured out how to anticipate your counter attack. You’re forced to work as a team, when you do y’all knock the piss out of us
@@brianwest6341 you can downplay the issues all you want but the current state of submarines is terrible. Hpw much bare they paying you? That's the only logical thing I can think of as to why you defend this crap everytime a sub is mentioned. From RUclips videos to the actual game itself all anyone is talking about is how broken they are in their current state. You're telling me unicum players are wrong?
@@brianwest6341 So four ships bum rushing a sub using everything in thier power to hurt the sub and the sub just vanishing from the map randomly is a counterplay anticipation? You can literally pop up in the middle of the entire enemy team and yet escape..
It's funny how submarines are supposed to be squishy and stealthy and yet somehow they feel tankier than ships like Kleber/Marceau or Elbing. It looks like WG is trying to create a fool-proof class here that doesn't get punished for making mistakes or isn't punished nearly as hard as it should be.
They are tanker than Kleber/Marceau/Elbing. Their shell saturation is even better than the French DDs and depth charges take forever to deal with them unless their DCP is down and you catch them with DOTs (which is terrible for both counterplay and actually being a “vulnerable class”)
I survived a whole team dropping asw on me and dds on top of me... it was wild we won the game because everyone wanted to attack me lol. Needless to say subs suck ass.
Yep, Flamu already did a few videos showing how ridiculous tanky the subs are. They are in no way squishy. And it worse considering that the only shells that do real damage, is SAP... A ship line with almost no utility at all other than defensive ones.
I was expecting subs, when they were first announced to be squishy stealth hunters and ambush predators if anything. I mean, my expectations were low knowing Wargaming, but how did we get to this point? Have they learned anything from the CV rework?
@@Dcarp7 WG listens to no one but their own spreadshit. I doubt They even play their own game at high Tier. They might see that Subs "underperforms" according to it so their answer that problem is buffing subs to the high heaven.
i remember the statements "subs will never appear in the game" they appeared "subs will never appear in random battles" here they are, wg are quickly sucking the the small bit of fun out of this game!
They could market it as a 'classic gameplay' option. I would play a version without carriers, perhaps limited to the ships available 3 or 4 years ago, before the aggressive introduction of all the sodding gimmick ships and gimmick classes.
I'd like to see (at least subs) have their own game mode however it would seem that the player base is dropping increasingly so this wouldn't be feasible. I've had matches in the afternoon where it was 6v6 and 9v9. They keep shooting themselves in the foot. I'm on the outs as well and I've been playing for years. It's sad really. Also notice the lack of players in your matches who aren't beginners.
They put homing torps in game so subs had a way to fight other subs. WG is so braindead they could not see how this would affect the game. Historically subs had about a 3.5km range with homing torps, so they should give subs 3.5km range in homing torps for sub vs sub. And then long range torps for surface ships unless a sub really wants to play risky and get into that 3.5km range on a surface ships. Subs should be high risk high reward, not dumbed down for the bottom of the player base. Every overpen in a sub with AP should also prevent the sub from submerging for 30secs or something as how realistic is it for a sub with actual holes in it to submerge without sinking. They won't give okhotnik depth charges because "historical realism" but these subs lol what's next flying saucers with lasers?
As a BB main…I have been trying to put my thoughts into why I hate subs unto words. You said it for me. I now spend the whole match running from pings and sub torps. If you try to run, because of the poor rudder time and speed you often put yourself into positions that you never would get into as part of normal strategy.
What I think? Subs are another nail in the coffin of this game. In fact they might be the concrete shoes that send it to the bottom. CV aircraft manufactures that are immune to counter play if played right, Gatling gun HE spammers spamming non stop for 20 minutes straight making armour irrelevant, romulin cloak smoke that act like one way mirrors, unending torp walls of skill from map end to map end and now invisible subs with undodgeable homing torps that reload faster then a Mcdonalds drive through with a 5 second ping mechanic which you can only get rid of with your damage con that has 1+ minute cooldown. Some ships have only a limited number of them then your cooked. Wargamming seem to be actively ignoring their player base and going out of their way to destroy their own game. Well congrats wargamming, you have one less player to worry about. I quit.
If youu've seen one of Flamu's new vids, you'll know that if played correctly submarines are completely immune to spotting except for hydro & proxispotting but they are still able to spot themselves, and attack while simultaniously being immune to gun- and aircraft dammage
Oh so another case of im getting pummelled and can’t fire back at my attacker just like CVs. Way to go Wargaming you should give your selves a medal for making a game as frustrating as fuck.
@@liamlyon1808 Why do you think WG continues to piss in the faces of its players, laughing while it does so? Because players put up with it. You can't change THEIR behaviour. All you can do is change YOURS. Every battle you play in the face of their bullshit is, as far as WG is concerned, proof your words are worthless and meaningless. So do the logical thing AND STOP PLAYING. Only IF enough people do THAT will WG sit up and take notice. Stop playing, stop spending. That's ALL players can do.
@@liamlyon1808 Great! I played from Alpha testing, stopped just short of 500 battles after release, many years ago now. Had seen enough, and learned my lesson from WoT. I decided there was no way would I put loads of time, let alone money, into WoWS, and I haven't regretted that choice one bit.
Have played both sides for a bit now, and it really seems that the best counterplay is just running away. As the subs are so slow and all their damage is torpedo-based (a somewhat bad combination for chasing after enemies), you basically end up in a situation where one side stops playing the game in order to stop their opponent from playing either. And you know it's completely effed when the best way to play the game is to not actually play the game.
Subs are faster than most battleships under water and the torpedoes will catch you easy if you run in a straight line. Had a match yesterday in Yamato I turned left at the start and never turned in and still died to 2 subs hunting me all game.
So slow? WTF are you on?? Do you know how slow they OUGHT to be? MAX speed surface/submerged of ~22/10 knots for the USN and 15/17.2 knots for the German. Yet surface ships are, largely, kept to their historical speeds (until you hoist magic flags and other gimmicky garbage of course). Just ONE of the problems with these idiot clown cars pretending to be submarines is their ludicrous speeds. They're barely slower than a DD FFS. It's so effing retarded, and that's before the lunacy of "ping simulator 2022". It'll be funny if these subs most people don't want truly DO drive a hell of a lot of players away.
It's really the point. CVs and Subs just make the game less fun for everyone else. The complexity of the tactical situation brilliant WITHOUT those classes, with units that exist outside that it's shit. Also, I've been playing (badly) for 5 years and I think there's a lot going on. God knows how steep a learning curve WG are presenting new players.
Remember, they nerfed the area of the airstrike saying the air strikes would be more powerful but to a smaller drop area….I have not found that to be the case.
And herein lies the problem. Wargaming does not want there to be any real counter play against whatever their newest brightest idea is. Rework the carriers, almost immediately do away with any meaningful anti-aircraft fire until we can introduce a new ship line that specializes in anti aircraft support. But then they introduce the German and Russian carriers which have the ability to attack outside of any meaningful anti-aircraft range. With the submarines, they want to dummy down what it takes to do damage to surface ships. Homing torpedoes with the incessant ping mechanic is totally opposite on the concept of low profile low observability sneak attacks. They're basically giving submarines the best of Both Worlds. Easier damage dealing with little to no risk of their ship. They essentially are turning any and every surface ship with the exception of carriers into a pinata to be farmed by CVS and submarines
I can't say I couldn't believe wargaming would introduce something as cancerous(maybe more) as carriers, but it still really disappointed me... Let's hope the new development team do something good about this.
I'm glad you made this video. Here's story time Last night, I was in my Ohio as well. I am at about 70 health, but in a good, safe position and not to far up with islands between myself and the enemy team. I get into an issue with our Mino where due to both of us derping, I'm at a dead stop and every time I try to go, the Mino cuts in front of me. All in all, I'm at a stop for about a minute. Then right off my broadside, a sub is spotted 2.2 KM away from me! He lets go the heavy non-homing torps and I die. This sub was well into our territory and I had no way of knowing he was there till he was at periscope depth 2.2 KM away from me. I did everything I could, both depth charges dropped and a full broadside op AP into him. I died and he did not. WG is making me about as close to uninstalling this game as I have ever been.
There is a not a single news for this game that makes me want to reinstall. Yesterday I discovered that the next clan battles season wi have superships. It isn't a surprise really. I bet the season after that one wi have submarines. WG is determined to kill this game.
It really feels like WG has tried most of the balances for subs. Thin armor low hit points = instant deaths for the sub Thicker armor more hit points = OP spotting and major damage output Slow subs = lack of game effect Fast subs = sinking big ships early and OP spotting Maybe I’m not explaining well, just think of the ying yang and how neither side works well.
I think the only thing they are going to understand is if every game there is a sub all the other players just return go port and reload until you get a game with no subs. It's going to take a mass refusal to play until they change them.
You know what's fun? Trying to run down a sub in a destroyer and depth charge him when he just surfaces in front of you and unloads near point blank torps on you. Hell if they get close enough to a battleship they can unload on top of you and your ASW can't even hit them because of it's minimum range. Not that it would matter ASW just like AA is a joke.
there is virtually no counterplay: when somehow you catch a sub with a DD - who is supposed to be the sub's nemesis - you score 8 depth charge hits, the sub comes up to the surface on half HP, you hit it with HE guns, which should absolutely wreck them, but nothing and the sub can either ram you due to how the depth charge drops work or torpedo you in the face from point-blank range... Or with airdropped charges, a single hit causes little damage, even if you see, or know where to drop them... well... still better than the super carriers
Don't always agree with everything he says, and hate mentioning other CC's, but Flamu has done some test with his community showing how broken Sub's are atm. They can bounce there level, go completely unspotted to everything except hydro, yea still attack and spot. There level to tank damage as well is extremely high. They can "tank" better than any T10 DD (compared to T10 subs) PQ touches on this a little bit. I have almost completely stopped playing random's at this point. Sticking to ranked. As it lets me avoid "super ships", sub's and only go up against a few CV's compared to the number in randoms.
remember the patch where they told the charge was supposed to deal way more damage and that's why they halved the number of charge you drop xd... i find it harder to kill sub when they changed the deep charge
Subs were sent so deep into enemy territory to scout out large ships and formations, they'd also try and make an attack on a ship if undetected. They also would target damaged ships like for example USS Hornet or various cruisers and destroyers. Yeah they really don't belong in this game at all, they just don't fit historically.
This is why, when the game was first publicly available to play in beta and "release," they said many times that the game would not have subs and it was a surface fleet action game. The design of the game back this up, and just how long/hard/stupid adding subs has been. I've rather they focus on Superships at this point, they at least work in the game.
It really feels like if they want to add submarines, the whole game needs to be redesigned with them in mind. DCing pings and throwing air strikes at them are just half-assed attempts at creating interaction. They way they're currently implemented, I thinkeveryone from T5 and up needs a 2 km hydro and the ability to drop depth charges straight down. I don't feel like proximity spotting at any depth is the way to go, but at least give everyone a way to speed up the battery drain, even temporarily.
As much as I hoped for subs being added as an addition which provides a different yet still exciting and fair/balanced experience to all the Silent Hunter and UBOAT die hard people like me, I must finally say myself that this will not work in any possible way I could imagine. Concerning the last dev blogs before subs came back they were about to be "limited" in terms of diving capacity and damage dealing potential. Well, it seems I have a different understanding in terms of what limiting means... I truely believe that they went way over the top when even a passionate Sub Skipper like myself who knows every single part of a Type VIIC Boat says that they cant do it. They really dont belong into random battles neither historically nor in terms of balance. I could go on and explain a variety of ways how to somewhat balance them out but still, I dont want to go into randoms with my sub and be that one guy who is even more hated than the cv main. At the moment it is really a coin toss whether the sub who is playing against you is either a complete potato (no front against you PQ
I like this idea as I really enjoyed the derby game mode. The problem will be WoWs' player base is not large enough to split off potential players into other game modes and keep randoms with enough at each tier to make a match.
I'm gonna quote you: "They really dont belong into random battles neither historically nor in terms of balance" This is exactly what I think about not just submarines, but also carriers. They do not fit into naval battlefields. If a carrier ends up 20-30 km from enemy fleet, it would just turn around and run. Which would possibly also force it on a course not fit for launching aircraft - end of story. Both submarines and carriers should be moved to special game modes such as PVE and PVP operations/scenarios.
german subs and balao are cancer (of course, t10 is cancer in general) i'd say go try salmon using unguided torps only and see if you find the experience to be better. her dive time is 3:40 and she does 14kts underwater, meaning you have to actually use your brain when trying to position her and have an exit strategy before you run into the enemy
PQ, Thank you for saying what we are ALL feeling.... Nothing like it! fun & engaging... So it finally occurred to me, either RUN away, burn or sink. Loose half (or more) health before you can struggle into effective range, or die trying in 10mins or less. Hope you enjoy the queue, I've spent more time in Queue to play, than actually playing, so that's now standard... This is now the game that I love, and don't want to play. Thought I was frustrated before, well it seems (since everyone who isn't a SuperUnicum sucks) like every battle with limited teams/subs/cv's/oddball one offs are gimmicks that finally made me quit... OR how to Love the game, HATE every moment...
Ohio was the best performing BB for me before Subs. Since Subs have released, especially now, I just have so so terrible games in Ohio, to the point where I don't play it at all because it isn't fun. Better of picking Slava, Colombo or just no BB at all.
Most of the time subs don’t bother me but in a game couple of days ago a sub was able to torp me to death and I never saw him once. He followed me almost all the way across the map. He shot like 20 torps. can’t dodge them all. If it was like this all the time I’d be pissed but it doesn’t so not too upset about it
I decided to have a go of the u-190, since their first iteration, must be my 3rd or 4th game in a sub, last time was on test server and when we had soviet subs. Twin brothers map, full yolo by my team to the eastern side leaving me and a tirpitz and omaha against; Aoba, Lazo, Myoko, Atago, Amagi and New mexico. I terrorised the lot of them, nailed the NM and Atago and literally ping spammed and torpedo spammed baiting people to blow the DCP's. It was rather boring frankly, literally sat within 8km of that lot and dived when needed. Yawn. I got neg-repped to hell and needed a shower afterwards.
I'm still leaning towards CVs being worse though to be honest - you can 'theoretically' outrun subs or put an island between them and yourself (yeah you'll probably be putting yourself out of position but at least it's "something") . You are right in everything you say here though - they are exceptionally poorly implemented. The only thing the community can do is to refuse to play with sub players, but you can't even team-kill any more. Still find subs less cancerous than skip bombers - that drop bombs out of AA range altogether. So now you don't even have "interaction" with the NPCs - not that AA "interaction" matters in any way shape or form anyway.
I had a similar experience with my Ohio in 2 matches, and have decided not to play randoms above T7 until something is done with subs. will still play ranked and maybe a bit of CO-OP which have have not done a lot of apart from naval battles. Subs dont belong in random.
Been basically screaming this since the first iteration and they were detectably worse this time even before I've seen/read what they changed!!! 1000% worse than CVs for a multitude of reasons! Near the top of my list is citing how frustrated ppl can get it the lack of direct counterplay to CVs, this is worse in a way. At least you aren't seeing the CV but can't shoot it.....waaaay more frustrating imo when you can nearly touch an enemy ship, but can't shoot it. Not to mention some ships(ie: dutch cruisers) that have NO anti-sub ANYTHING!!! So dumb
As others have sai, subs, cvs, super ships pushing me away from the game. Had a game where a sub drove underneath me in a bb, pop up behind me. Run me down and split my head open. Fun and engaging…….
Add in the fact that you can "porpoise" the sub between 15-20 depth and you can constantly spot while having shell immunity and still able to fire your torps.....good times...fml
I totally agree with your assessment about subs. I was in a battle today on Islands of Ice in a Tier X Hindenburg. Within the first 2 min of battle, as I was slowly making my way forward, I was attacked by a Tier X Balao which I could not spot at all. The sub pinged me and even after I negated the ping with my damage control, it still managed to hit me with all its torpedoes and I simply died. From full health to zero health within two min of battle commencing. I was not even able to advance far enough to be able to help anyone in my team. Our team eventually lost the battle and I came at the bottom of the results list of my team. So, your assessment that subs are worse than CVs is totally true. At least you can see the planes from a CV coming at you and be able to dodge its rockets, or bombs or torpedoes. But with subs and their homing torpedoes, you just don't stand any chance at all. Subs are just too tanky and their homing torpedoes do way too much damage. It is no fun at all when you die within the first two min of battle and not being able to do anything about it.
Good luck handling subs who know how to perform the dolphin technique. When they do that, they’re able to spot and attack with all the benefits of being periscope depth, while having none of the weaknesses. Shots cannot hurt you. You cannot be spotted, not even by planes, unless they use hydro or they proxi-spot you, meaning the only real way to kill them when they do that is if you drop enough depth charges on them if they make a big mistake. Good luck with that. On the bright side, at least carriers will get a nice taste of their own medicine for a while from players who do perform the dolphin technique since they will have zero counter play, and so have zero chance. But regular surface ships won’t fair too much better either really so… yeah… this is after 3+ years of testing and development guys. I learned about this from a video Flamu did. Even if you don’t like him and/or his videos, it’s still worth taking a look at it just so you know what I’m talking about if you don’t know about it.
I found the best counterplay for submarines...uninstall the game. As long as subs are in the game, not coming back, and yes I am a whale with basically every premium ship in the harbor and over 2000 dragon flags. I dont care, WG ruined the game and I am gone.
Bye then lol i'm a whale too and ill make up for you going. stop trying to somehow blackmail wargaming because you don't like something just go and dom't let the door hit you on the way out BYE BYE
I've been lucky and have been able to counter subs fairly effectively. It's the super carriers I've come to really dislike. If they want to take you out of the game there's nothing you can do. Wave after wave hit so fast and you are out of the game. I've been playing a lot more lower tiers lately because of this and the current game economy.
The damage output on the DC air strikes is on purpose. They don’t want you to outright kill the Sub with depth charge airstikes like the last round of testing, they aren’t supposed to kill it outright but force them to pull back or eat chip damage, similar to fire or flooding tick damage in a sense. Subs main point they’re supposed to be wiped with their low HP is if you force or catch them on the surface.
@@Choukai_Chan History has nothing to do with this game anymore, its a arcade game where CV's have limitless amount's of planes, Ships move way faster than they should, DD's get more than one set of torpedoes, etc. Dont bring history into this it was thrown out the window long ago.
I personally have studied a fair bit of game design, and it does make me understand why Wargaming does certain things, and why they won't make "obvious" changes. For example why Wargaming won't take away CV's ability to spot for their team. If you've ever been in a battle with no radar on your team and on top of that all of your DDs are gunboats and the other team has radar and stealthy DDs, you will know you are basically going to lose that battle from the start, your team has no real way of ever finding those stealthy DDs and they are going to win the battle on their own, with a CV around it covers for DDs being able to put out hundreds of thousands of damage from stealth every few minutes by giving your team a way to spot them. Sure the DD doesn't have fun being spotted by a CV, but the entire enemy team doesn't have fun not being able to find that DD as he just picks them off one by one. CVs do fill an important role in keeping DDs balanced. That said, subs are terrible right now. As demonstrated depth charge drops do basically no damage, the drops from most T10s deal 2600 damage, and seem to follow standard pen rules, so really you only get 1/3rd of that damage. Even if they dealt full damage it's still only 2600 damage 3 times every 25 seconds, against a target with 20k+ HP. Problem number two is the ships designed for countering Subs, those being DDs and Light Cruisers, really can't. How does a Gearing find a sub? Answer, hope it's on the surface and get within 2.3km, if it's below periscope depth, you just can't spot it. Oh well follow the oil and splashes! Well that's great in theory, but in practice those take around a second to long to appear to be of any use. You could drop depth charges from a Gearing right on an oil slick and miss completely, then see the next oil slick appear around a km or two away in the opposite direction you thought he was going. Well okay then, how about Z-52 it has hydro surely that helps! Well... no. It still has to get lucky and find the sub ether on the surface at 2.3km or with it's hydro running it can find subs in the depths at... 2km. Assured detection range. The range that you are supposed to always spot ships at anyway yet for some reason don't in subs. Keep in mind that whole time the sub is spotting Z-52 from around 6km away, and a spotted DD is a dead DD. Well okay how about light cruisers like Minotaur! Surely it stands a better chance being a bigger ship with better armaments! Nope, same problem only this time it's spotted from 9km away and is easier to kill. The issue with subs, and it's something everyone knows is there is no counter play to Subs. You can argue there is none against CVs but there is, it's just not something you actively have to do, with subs you have NOTHING you can do. I honestly feel like Wargaming know this, but also know if you could counter subs easier no one would play them, unless they made them into full on glass cannons where they deal stupid high damage but are likely to die the moment they start launching torps. An easy solution to this issue would be to go back to one of their initial ideas, make the sub visible the moment it pings, to make that a little more balanced for the sub, have ships outside of ping range only see the icon on the mini-map if it's under periscope distance. Not like you can do anything about a sub that far away anyway unless it's on the surface, then it should be spotted by ships outside of ping range. That would allow for counter-play, and would encourage more risky play from subs, where they would have to wait to ping or risk dieing before their torps reach the target. It would also open subs up to play more like British DDs that can only single fire torps. They would be taking lower risk playing like that, but likely get less reward. I would also make CV bombs and rockets able to deal splash damage to subs. You can't tell me it makes sense that Akizuki's 100mm(62lb) shell has splash radius, and Midway's AN-M66 2000lb bomb doesn't. Even Mackensen's 88mm shells have splash radius to them that shell weighs in the region of 20 lbs, and only has just under 2 pounds of explosives. Sure that would mean the British could wreck a Subs day, but they need to be able to wreck something why not make it subs?
you need 2,5 sets of waterbombs right onto it to kill the sub. You even need more Main gun shots with DD´s to kill a sub than you need to kill other DDs...despite the HP. There is a video documenting the tests.
You've got to hit a sub above the waterline otherwise shells typically just skip off the surface of the water. If they do manage to penetrate they loose their kinetic energy in just a few yards of water.
You know, DDs are at great risk fighting subs. Their rediculous underwater speed typically keeps the DD to about a 10kt closure rate. That takes forever if the DD is approaching from behind. It causes DDs to approach in a straight line for the fastest closure rate making it easier for enemy warships to target and hit the DD.
by this point, I wouldn't be surprised for WG to come up with somethink like DDs dropping sea mines to help with subs but ofc they'd do more damage to surface ships than subs
Stupid WG could have just added ships and skins to profit. Instead, they really want to promote subs resented by both teams. As a teammate, they tend to just go all the way in and surface and die. As an enemy, they can guard a pretty large area and don't get punished by bad moves. I only play DDs, long-range HE cruisers, or highly accurate guns bbs now and never touched functional cruisers or close-range combat BBs since subs were out. Also, I hate subs so much that in a game, I would rather turn out, show broadside, and die from 4 citadels from a BB than letting subs do any damage to me. Fk them. recently I have a 75 % plus winning rate for gun-built DDs and I can't go anywhere when playing Germain BBs. I guess I helped my team win more efficiently by killing enemy DDs and making sure that their subs cant provide much spotting. DDs are still OK but I miss playing cruisers and BBs though.
WG: What do you want us to do? Make subs, something that we've been developing and spent far too much money on fair and balanced? Haha. We've investigated balancing issues ourselves and found everything is perfectly fine. Stop complaining, you don't know what you're talking about. Only WG knows what's best for you, not you, aka the people who actually play the game and have to deal with it.
If you are interested go look at a list of WARSHIPS sunk by submarines in WWII. You'll find with few exceptions, like the Indianapolis that subs were killing cripples as they attempted to return from a battle or they were catching ships passing through restricted waters like between the barrier islands and the main islands in the Marianas. They just didn't have the speed or endurance to "chase" warships. Often they were sent out ahead of a fleet like the IJN did prior to Midway to scout. This is why they would be in the vicinity of a battle and have the opportunity to hunt cripples. They would also be tasked with sinking refueling and supply ships which would follow fleets around.
long ago we said: WG fucking up their game one update at a time. I'm so glad I don't p(l)ay anymore. I still love the look and feel but I've stopped yearning for "the old and balanced" version of this game and just watch others now. I've said I hope WG will change "whatever" way too many times to ever believe they'll change anything anymore. All I hope for now is some day someone will make a better version. A damn shame to see game managers shitting on their community like this.
There is plenty of counterplay against carriers it's just that a lot of players, like this Potato Quality guy, don't want to adjust their gameplay accordingly. He complains all of the time about carriers yet plays as if there is no carrier in the game at all. He did a Grozovoi video where he just complained and complained about the Shokau that fixated on him yet he was out all by himself for most of the game. The counterplay against carriers is long-term plane bleed, because the planes regenerate slowly, which ends up leaving the team with lesser situational awareness/stacked AA with a carrier on the other team that still has effective flights at the end of the game while the lesser team is left calling their carrier player a "noob" because he's left with flights of one or two planes. And NOOOOO the best carrier player in the world can't dodge his way through stacked AA or correctly played ships that force the attack runs to cross over islands or chase. I play while I watch TV and even then I have never had a situation where I couldn't deal with a carrier regardless of tier spread unless it was the result of a mistake on my part. Subs are still a WIP and the only time I've had a problem with subs is when I mess up or my team is already outnumbered. The solution for players like Potato Quality is to stick to Tier 1 where he'll never run into carriers or any other ship types that make him alter his approach to the battle and he'll get just the kind of reduced variable gameplay he's looking for.
Well, I just stopped playing, since I want fun and competitive gameplay and don't have a lot of time. And MM with carrier, PL and Smolensk on my flank is totally not fun. So this is my workaround for submarines.
If WoWS ever starts a new server with the promise that there would never be subs or CVs added, I would create a new account there immediately. I'd abandon Halsey, Cunningham, Lutjens, the Ohio, the Salem, the Goliath, on and on and on, if I had to, just to play a game that's fun again.
I feel your pain PQ. It was just last night a sub popped up 1.8 km in front of my cruiser and released a beeline of homing torps at point blank range for a dev strike and to add insult to injury my final salvo which was also point blank did 0 damage. I was so mad I did something I don't normally do. I went to the forum to vent. lol Which is usually a bad mistake since the frequenters usually like to contradict player's concerns not because their concerns are not legit but because it's cool to be a dick on the forum.
They are not going away WG has a hard on for subs and they are here to stay. I just got back into Warships after years away and I was really enjoying playing Intel this version of subs popped back up. They are almost unsinkable one on one. I think they should have subs in game to only commanders who have subs in there port. So if you drive a sub now and then and have one in your port but are driving a DD for this game you may fight subs in your game. No subs in your port no subs in any of your games. That way the people that like subs and use them now and then get to fight them when they are in a BB, CV, DD what ever. Easy for the match maker to sift through the commanders that have subs. WG chased me off before I am sure they will do it again they are very good at it. Wish I would have stayed away but I got the bug again. I think they put them back into the game super powerful so everyone will bitch and then they will nerf them to where they want them and satisfy the so called complainers. For most people that will work even if the subs still have to much power they will think they won the battle of subs and shut up. People aren't to bright these days.
I had 2 games back to back in the Cristoforo Columbo, both subs appeared at the same time about 1km from me. Couldn’t even get the depth charges off, they were too close. Full health to dead in about 30 seconds exclusively from subs.
Submarines were convoy raiders, unless they were American submarines. Then they were murder anything that floats raiders (also trains, trains are on the murder list). Check out Thunder Below about the USS Barb if you want some mission impossible level shit.
I doubt you guys are going to like the new ICBM player! So far the game play is one button to launch your nukes to destroy all the ships on the map, but you can’t push it until there is 10 minutes left in the match. They are thinking of cutting that to 5 if 10 seems too good.
Some DDs have almost unusable depth charges because they are almost impossible to reliably put on target. Some cruisers don't have any defense unless the sub surfaces and other have to suicide to get into position to use their ASW. So far the most reliable way I have found to deal with subs and avoiding them, until late game when their dive meter is near depleted, wait them out and then blast them as they are forced to surface. The aggressive subs aren't too bad but it's the passive ones that are beyond annoying and they're fast enough that I can't outrun and at the same time makes it very difficult to force an engagment
But they won't. They've committed resources to development and they insist on selling them now, no matter what it does to the game. Personally, the game isn't worth playing anymore. However, I'm glad others still play, since it's still entertaining to watch others suffering.
Submarines will never be worse than Carriers. They are broken, but Carrier abilities just kills all kinds of gameplay elements, so much that they should be in their own game. Not mode, but game.
I've found myself asking the same question, what is the counter play? push up with mos to support my dds, here comes unavoidable torps. try to cap as a dd, still spotted, like come on.
The fact you can't heal basically any of the damage either is ridiculous. I got caught out in thunderer lost 39k health and couldn't heal any of it. If you could heal like 75 percent or something it would be loads better
In retrospect - it might’ve been better if they had made them super glass cannony, with a very long reload, fitting a bit more into the niche raider/scout playstyle style… What they hit hurts, but if they get hit by anything, they’re dead
They really want subs to be hard counters to carriers because even BBs can defend themselves better. If you end up 1 on 1 against a sub in a cv, you might as well go afk because good luck hitting the sub
WG uses "historical" to its own ends... "Historical" stops as soon it becomes inconvienient. They really like to gaslight players who dislike what they want to push into game.
I just was in a game with Shimakaze chasing after a Balao - got guided torped to death. How in the world are we supposed to play against or counter subs?
People need to understant => its not the developers, they only do what they get paid to do. The decisions are made by someone else. They can hire the best developers, and subs wont change if WG says so.
The subs are better then some of the modern diesel subs of today. Controllable torps fast under water speed for the sub. I have struggled to match their speed let alone catch them so I could drop depth charges.
is the same with dds, when you dont have radar, there is not much to do. but since is fine that for wg, they guess the subs are fine that way too. And is not fun for both, only for dpm farmers.
Got 7 depth charges on a T8 sub with the Sejong, then landed 6 hits on him when he surfaced at about 3km and that was not enough to kill him. ASW now is really aenemic. On a side not Potato, I've noticed you have a really static playstyle, you are making it really really easy for subs doing that. You make it easy to ping you and really easy to torp you. If you keep moving at speed you will make it a lot harder for them to tag you.
If they made these things more glass-cannony then I might be inclined as to think they’re fine. But it’s when you have the “resources” on hand to deal with these things, and they just don’t give a fuck about what you’re throwing at them, that makes it really hard to justify their OPness. Same thing with aircraft carriers and their armor, based on the consistent amount of potential damage they have.
Submarines, carriers, super carriers, and super ships in general have pushed me away from playing anything higher than T7. Honestly I'm only playing T4-T6 lately which for me is fine. WG's goal has always been to push players to higher tiers but with the introduction of the aforementioned ships I think they're doing the exact opposite.
As what youd expect from Putin lovers Dev team
@@mikkodoria4778 except Wargaming closed office and fired the WOT developer for his pro Putin statement.
I can deal with superships as long as they are surface ships. It’s essentially just tier 11 which is fine by me, especially because they aren’t even that great. However, super carriers are broken and subs are just outrageous
I actually started doing same.. never got out of bronze league in rank deliberately
@@mikkodoria4778 Expected response from a Ukraine lover
Had a conversation about the issues with submarines, and they pretty much snubbed me off and said that people like myself were just playing up the issue. Glad you're here pointing out how bad they are for the game, keep it up dude! Your content is perfect.
You mentioned about the raider style of operations for submarines in real life. There's a lot of examples in this during world war 2, specifically with the Germans when they were sinking allied shipping and the such. If it hasn't been suggested for you already (and if its of interest to you), you may want to check it out. A lot of the history about them is pretty interesting, as well as their engagements.
Yeah, I feel you, but you can't really argue with those clowns. Wg will reign supreme. I am most worried about the support carriers wg wants to add. I do not understand why wg wants to ruin the game by adding more and more carriers and submarines.. it only makes the gameplay more dull and unfun for everyone.
@@aysahh Yeah, I just don't bother anymore. Took a break to play elden ring and honestly was the best thing I could have done lmao
They already broke the theory of rock-paper-scissors of the original game adding fire (CVs). Now they are throwing kerosene to the mix.
Subs are why I stopped playing Warships
Submarines in WWII also had single digit top speeds when submerged
Only the Type XXI were fast underwater.
Story time:
So we playing with kremlin, venezia, smalland.
We clear a flank, except the Sub. The sub was a full pleb though.
In full pleb fashion, he figures its smart to surface. I see my RPF switching. I hit the radar. We catch him in like 5.5km or sth.
We get some hits in, he dives and probably used DCP.
Immediately venezia (very fast cruiser) and smalland with enginge boost (ammong the fastest ships in the game) charge into him. He was bow into us. Surely we will kill him.
Krem even gets ASW hits and causes like this oil leak kinda thing. I start deploying my depth charges with smalland, venezia deploys ASW aswell.
I end up getting FKIN AIGHT hits on it. New flood included. Venezia gets 2 hits. Kremlin gets some additional hits.
And the sub is gone. We never found it again before the game ended.
Im not saying im a pro. But that was literally like a 40%er pulling the stupidest move possible, surfacing in front of 3 ships. Bow in. With no backup that can stop us from pushing him.
He gets to live. Even though we hit him with guns and well over 10 depth charges. He gets to live.
At this point its just comical. WG tries so hard to create ships that do not have any PvP interaction so that the last idiot can do stuff even if he makes every single mistake possible. That was 3 decent players in the 60% WR range catching a 40%er on like 5.5km. And it is literally impossible to convert the kill. Its comical.
Flamu in one of his latest videos tested it and it took something like 20 perfect, direct hits from cruiser DC to kill a sub
I landed 16 depth charges on a Balao in my Z-52 a couple days ago. There was also a Shima, Kremlin, Puerto Rico, and my Div mate (don’t remember what ship he was in) launching their own depth charges and air strikes. The sub had marched though the middle of the map then came to our east flank from the west so he basically had sides on any ship angled to the enemy south of the east flank. I finally got the kill on my 16th depth charge hit and that was while basically just hovering over him as he tried to get away with German hydro banging away on his hull. It was insane.
I play mostly (OP) tier 10 DDs like Smaland, Kleber, etc and I found it very hard after the reintroduction of the subs to play the battles as I should.Sometimes I found myself chasing ghosts around the map, wasting time, damage, PR.Or I’m chased around in my DD by a sub backed by a cruiser, it’s just sad at this point.
@@alexandrublidariu5566 yeah. Ima dd main and spend most of my dd time in my vampire.....i USED to have fun 4 of 5 games in her(only MAYBE dropping that to a 3/5 in CV games)...ill give it 2 of 5 with subs now.
Ima 60%er, F2P scrub, who's played since launch, and there is no question I dislike subs more than ANY other change/addition this game has made!
Got used to/kinda enjoyed:
-adding radar
-eliminating ability to fire undetected in the open
-smoke mechanics
-all the russian-bias ships
-and yes, even CVs(tho I don't play them)
This, cannot stand in its current state....or even really close to it.
In my Midway, I hit the Balao with 1 thousand pound bomb, four rockets, and 16 127mm secondary hits. Didn't even do half his HP. All while he fluffed three separate torpedo attacks on my while he was in close...
The whole thing is dumb.
When you have a player that is among the top 1% of players that says they can't figure out how to counter subs you have a problem.
Maybe tactics? Like how you counter subs in WW2? The issue is that everyone is lone-wolfing it against them.
@@danielbroome5690 Not all IRL tactics work in an arcade game like this. For example, sonar and radar don't work the same irl as they do in the game. Spotting doesn't work the same either. Homing torps don't work the same, depth charges don't work the same, almost nothing works like it did in WW2.
I've noticed lately how little the depth charges do to subs.
Right? Dropped four fighter squadrons perfectly, got about 6-7 hits, and the guy still survived. It took having to get a DD right overtop of him and forcing him to surface to kill him…
check Flamu's video about subs tankiness
They do plenty, it’s just that we have figured out how to anticipate your counter attack. You’re forced to work as a team, when you do y’all knock the piss out of us
@@brianwest6341 you can downplay the issues all you want but the current state of submarines is terrible. Hpw much bare they paying you? That's the only logical thing I can think of as to why you defend this crap everytime a sub is mentioned. From RUclips videos to the actual game itself all anyone is talking about is how broken they are in their current state. You're telling me unicum players are wrong?
@@brianwest6341 So four ships bum rushing a sub using everything in thier power to hurt the sub and the sub just vanishing from the map randomly is a counterplay anticipation? You can literally pop up in the middle of the entire enemy team and yet escape..
It's funny how submarines are supposed to be squishy and stealthy and yet somehow they feel tankier than ships like Kleber/Marceau or Elbing. It looks like WG is trying to create a fool-proof class here that doesn't get punished for making mistakes or isn't punished nearly as hard as it should be.
They are tanker than Kleber/Marceau/Elbing. Their shell saturation is even better than the French DDs and depth charges take forever to deal with them unless their DCP is down and you catch them with DOTs (which is terrible for both counterplay and actually being a “vulnerable class”)
I survived a whole team dropping asw on me and dds on top of me... it was wild we won the game because everyone wanted to attack me lol. Needless to say subs suck ass.
Yep, Flamu already did a few videos showing how ridiculous tanky the subs are. They are in no way squishy.
And it worse considering that the only shells that do real damage, is SAP...
A ship line with almost no utility at all other than defensive ones.
I was expecting subs, when they were first announced to be squishy stealth hunters and ambush predators if anything. I mean, my expectations were low knowing Wargaming, but how did we get to this point? Have they learned anything from the CV rework?
@@Dcarp7 WG listens to no one but their own spreadshit. I doubt They even play their own game at high Tier.
They might see that Subs "underperforms" according to it so their answer that problem is buffing subs to the high heaven.
I was permaspotted in my scleiffen by a sub. Literally until I died.
Good gaming experience, huh?
Yep.@@KondorDCS
Why didn't you just dodge or use those super powerful depth charges?
@@raw7576 I actually did dodge a fair few torps from it. It was everyone else shooting at me that killed me.
so should we nerf everybody's guns now because they fired at you ? honestly what is your argument here
I find it curious that carrier planes have infinite range, yet ASW planes have shorter range than some vessels' base secondary guns.
i remember the statements "subs will never appear in the game"
they appeared
"subs will never appear in random battles"
here they are,
wg are quickly sucking the the small bit of fun out of this game!
Honestly you must watch Flamu vid about how broken (bugged) they are.
Id really like to see a new game mode... Surface ships only... No CV's or Subs. I'd probably start playing again if they did..
They could market it as a 'classic gameplay' option. I would play a version without carriers, perhaps limited to the ships available 3 or 4 years ago, before the aggressive introduction of all the sodding gimmick ships and gimmick classes.
I'd like to see (at least subs) have their own game mode however it would seem that the player base is dropping increasingly so this wouldn't be feasible. I've had matches in the afternoon where it was 6v6 and 9v9. They keep shooting themselves in the foot. I'm on the outs as well and I've been playing for years. It's sad really. Also notice the lack of players in your matches who aren't beginners.
They put homing torps in game so subs had a way to fight other subs. WG is so braindead they could not see how this would affect the game. Historically subs had about a 3.5km range with homing torps, so they should give subs 3.5km range in homing torps for sub vs sub. And then long range torps for surface ships unless a sub really wants to play risky and get into that 3.5km range on a surface ships. Subs should be high risk high reward, not dumbed down for the bottom of the player base. Every overpen in a sub with AP should also prevent the sub from submerging for 30secs or something as how realistic is it for a sub with actual holes in it to submerge without sinking. They won't give okhotnik depth charges because "historical realism" but these subs lol what's next flying saucers with lasers?
As a BB main…I have been trying to put my thoughts into why I hate subs unto words. You said it for me. I now spend the whole match running from pings and sub torps. If you try to run, because of the poor rudder time and speed you often put yourself into positions that you never would get into as part of normal strategy.
What I think? Subs are another nail in the coffin of this game. In fact they might be the concrete shoes that send it to the bottom. CV aircraft manufactures that are immune to counter play if played right, Gatling gun HE spammers spamming non stop for 20 minutes straight making armour irrelevant, romulin cloak smoke that act like one way mirrors, unending torp walls of skill from map end to map end and now invisible subs with undodgeable homing torps that reload faster then a Mcdonalds drive through with a 5 second ping mechanic which you can only get rid of with your damage con that has 1+ minute cooldown. Some ships have only a limited number of them then your cooked. Wargamming seem to be actively ignoring their player base and going out of their way to destroy their own game. Well congrats wargamming, you have one less player to worry about. I quit.
I just can't understand how they figure this and the current direction is the right way. They never ever listen and in pretty much over it
If youu've seen one of Flamu's new vids, you'll know that if played correctly submarines are completely immune to spotting except for hydro & proxispotting but they are still able to spot themselves, and attack while simultaniously being immune to gun- and aircraft dammage
Oh so another case of im getting pummelled and can’t fire back at my attacker just like CVs. Way to go Wargaming you should give your selves a medal for making a game as frustrating as fuck.
@@liamlyon1808 Why do you think WG continues to piss in the faces of its players, laughing while it does so? Because players put up with it.
You can't change THEIR behaviour. All you can do is change YOURS.
Every battle you play in the face of their bullshit is, as far as WG is concerned, proof your words are worthless and meaningless.
So do the logical thing AND STOP PLAYING. Only IF enough people do THAT will WG sit up and take notice.
Stop playing, stop spending. That's ALL players can do.
@@steeltrap3800 I haven’t played for ages and I ain’t buying shit until they fuck off with the cv and sub shit.
@@liamlyon1808 Great!
I played from Alpha testing, stopped just short of 500 battles after release, many years ago now.
Had seen enough, and learned my lesson from WoT. I decided there was no way would I put loads of time, let alone money, into WoWS, and I haven't regretted that choice one bit.
Have played both sides for a bit now, and it really seems that the best counterplay is just running away. As the subs are so slow and all their damage is torpedo-based (a somewhat bad combination for chasing after enemies), you basically end up in a situation where one side stops playing the game in order to stop their opponent from playing either.
And you know it's completely effed when the best way to play the game is to not actually play the game.
Subs are faster than most battleships under water and the torpedoes will catch you easy if you run in a straight line. Had a match yesterday in Yamato I turned left at the start and never turned in and still died to 2 subs hunting me all game.
Unless its Golf. Then thats your entire goal
Joshua?
So slow? WTF are you on??
Do you know how slow they OUGHT to be? MAX speed surface/submerged of ~22/10 knots for the USN and 15/17.2 knots for the German. Yet surface ships are, largely, kept to their historical speeds (until you hoist magic flags and other gimmicky garbage of course).
Just ONE of the problems with these idiot clown cars pretending to be submarines is their ludicrous speeds. They're barely slower than a DD FFS. It's so effing retarded, and that's before the lunacy of "ping simulator 2022".
It'll be funny if these subs most people don't want truly DO drive a hell of a lot of players away.
Just running away causing everyone to sit on the A or J line…. I’ve seen it happen quite a few times now. Pretty frustrating
It's really the point. CVs and Subs just make the game less fun for everyone else. The complexity of the tactical situation brilliant WITHOUT those classes, with units that exist outside that it's shit.
Also, I've been playing (badly) for 5 years and I think there's a lot going on. God knows how steep a learning curve WG are presenting new players.
Remember, they nerfed the area of the airstrike saying the air strikes would be more powerful but to a smaller drop area….I have not found that to be the case.
Turns out they deceived us...again.
This was just a complicated way to say depth charge airstrikes will be completely useless now
And herein lies the problem. Wargaming does not want there to be any real counter play against whatever their newest brightest idea is. Rework the carriers, almost immediately do away with any meaningful anti-aircraft fire until we can introduce a new ship line that specializes in anti aircraft support. But then they introduce the German and Russian carriers which have the ability to attack outside of any meaningful anti-aircraft range. With the submarines, they want to dummy down what it takes to do damage to surface ships. Homing torpedoes with the incessant ping mechanic is totally opposite on the concept of low profile low observability sneak attacks. They're basically giving submarines the best of Both Worlds. Easier damage dealing with little to no risk of their ship. They essentially are turning any and every surface ship with the exception of carriers into a pinata to be farmed by CVS and submarines
...and the early access events for the new OP ships are basically pay2win...
Pretty much. WoWs easy mode to cash grab new players is all this is.
I can't say I couldn't believe wargaming would introduce something as cancerous(maybe more) as carriers, but it still really disappointed me... Let's hope the new development team do something good about this.
I'm glad you made this video. Here's story time
Last night, I was in my Ohio as well. I am at about 70 health, but in a good, safe position and not to far up with islands between myself and the enemy team. I get into an issue with our Mino where due to both of us derping, I'm at a dead stop and every time I try to go, the Mino cuts in front of me. All in all, I'm at a stop for about a minute. Then right off my broadside, a sub is spotted 2.2 KM away from me! He lets go the heavy non-homing torps and I die. This sub was well into our territory and I had no way of knowing he was there till he was at periscope depth 2.2 KM away from me. I did everything I could, both depth charges dropped and a full broadside op AP into him. I died and he did not. WG is making me about as close to uninstalling this game as I have ever been.
There is a not a single news for this game that makes me want to reinstall. Yesterday I discovered that the next clan battles season wi have superships. It isn't a surprise really. I bet the season after that one wi have submarines.
WG is determined to kill this game.
It really feels like WG has tried most of the balances for subs.
Thin armor low hit points = instant deaths for the sub
Thicker armor more hit points = OP spotting and major damage output
Slow subs = lack of game effect
Fast subs = sinking big ships early and OP spotting
Maybe I’m not explaining well, just think of the ying yang and how neither side works well.
Maybe if they actually *balanced* them instead of going to the extremes...
If only there were some vast gulf of middle ground between extremes!
Just take them out ez fix… we don’t need them, it’s not “fun” to play nor fight them
I think the only thing they are going to understand is if every game there is a sub all the other players just return go port and reload until you get a game with no subs. It's going to take a mass refusal to play until they change them.
Yep. Apologize to the other players, tell them why, then leave the match.
simple, just remove them from the game, problem solved
You know what's fun? Trying to run down a sub in a destroyer and depth charge him when he just surfaces in front of you and unloads near point blank torps on you. Hell if they get close enough to a battleship they can unload on top of you and your ASW can't even hit them because of it's minimum range. Not that it would matter ASW just like AA is a joke.
there is virtually no counterplay: when somehow you catch a sub with a DD - who is supposed to be the sub's nemesis - you score 8 depth charge hits, the sub comes up to the surface on half HP, you hit it with HE guns, which should absolutely wreck them, but nothing and the sub can either ram you due to how the depth charge drops work or torpedo you in the face from point-blank range...
Or with airdropped charges, a single hit causes little damage, even if you see, or know where to drop them...
well...
still better than the super carriers
Don't always agree with everything he says, and hate mentioning other CC's, but Flamu has done some test with his community showing how broken Sub's are atm. They can bounce there level, go completely unspotted to everything except hydro, yea still attack and spot. There level to tank damage as well is extremely high. They can "tank" better than any T10 DD (compared to T10 subs) PQ touches on this a little bit.
I have almost completely stopped playing random's at this point. Sticking to ranked. As it lets me avoid "super ships", sub's and only go up against a few CV's compared to the number in randoms.
remember the patch where they told the charge was supposed to deal way more damage and that's why they halved the number of charge you drop xd... i find it harder to kill sub when they changed the deep charge
Subs were sent so deep into enemy territory to scout out large ships and formations, they'd also try and make an attack on a ship if undetected. They also would target damaged ships like for example USS Hornet or various cruisers and destroyers.
Yeah they really don't belong in this game at all, they just don't fit historically.
This is why, when the game was first publicly available to play in beta and "release," they said many times that the game would not have subs and it was a surface fleet action game. The design of the game back this up, and just how long/hard/stupid adding subs has been. I've rather they focus on Superships at this point, they at least work in the game.
@@Swarm509 I agree. No more subs!
It really feels like if they want to add submarines, the whole game needs to be redesigned with them in mind. DCing pings and throwing air strikes at them are just half-assed attempts at creating interaction. They way they're currently implemented, I thinkeveryone from T5 and up needs a 2 km hydro and the ability to drop depth charges straight down. I don't feel like proximity spotting at any depth is the way to go, but at least give everyone a way to speed up the battery drain, even temporarily.
"Historically" and "World of Warships" don't mix lmao
@@davidj.3441 Well one thing that wows gets extremely correct is that carriers are so fucking dangerous
As much as I hoped for subs being added as an addition which provides a different yet still exciting and fair/balanced experience to all the Silent Hunter and UBOAT die hard people like me, I must finally say myself that this will not work in any possible way I could imagine. Concerning the last dev blogs before subs came back they were about to be "limited" in terms of diving capacity and damage dealing potential. Well, it seems I have a different understanding in terms of what limiting means... I truely believe that they went way over the top when even a passionate Sub Skipper like myself who knows every single part of a Type VIIC Boat says that they cant do it. They really dont belong into random battles neither historically nor in terms of balance. I could go on and explain a variety of ways how to somewhat balance them out but still, I dont want to go into randoms with my sub and be that one guy who is even more hated than the cv main. At the moment it is really a coin toss whether the sub who is playing against you is either a complete potato (no front against you PQ
I like this idea as I really enjoyed the derby game mode. The problem will be WoWs' player base is not large enough to split off potential players into other game modes and keep randoms with enough at each tier to make a match.
I'm gonna quote you: "They really dont belong into random battles neither historically nor in terms of balance"
This is exactly what I think about not just submarines, but also carriers. They do not fit into naval battlefields. If a carrier ends up 20-30 km from enemy fleet, it would just turn around and run. Which would possibly also force it on a course not fit for launching aircraft - end of story.
Both submarines and carriers should be moved to special game modes such as PVE and PVP operations/scenarios.
german subs and balao are cancer (of course, t10 is cancer in general)
i'd say go try salmon using unguided torps only and see if you find the experience to be better. her dive time is 3:40 and she does 14kts underwater, meaning you have to actually use your brain when trying to position her and have an exit strategy before you run into the enemy
To paraphrase another AI:
A strange game.
The only winning move is not to play.
PQ, Thank you for saying what we are ALL feeling....
Nothing like it! fun & engaging... So it finally occurred to me, either RUN away, burn or sink. Loose half (or more) health before you can struggle into effective range, or die trying in 10mins or less. Hope you enjoy the queue, I've spent more time in Queue to play, than actually playing, so that's now standard... This is now the game that I love, and don't want to play. Thought I was frustrated before, well it seems (since everyone who isn't a SuperUnicum sucks) like every battle with limited teams/subs/cv's/oddball one offs are gimmicks that finally made me quit... OR how to Love the game, HATE every moment...
a new class thats boring to play, well also being extremely toxic for the opponent with basically no counterplay. Who could of seen this coming kekw
same issue here...i noticed how buffed and tanky they are since they were reintroduced to the game. Wonder if wg devs are stupid or mad?!?!
Best counter play: don’t press the battle button at all.
Ohio was the best performing BB for me before Subs. Since Subs have released, especially now, I just have so so terrible games in Ohio, to the point where I don't play it at all because it isn't fun. Better of picking Slava, Colombo or just no BB at all.
Potato: I don't know what I'm supposed to do
WG: remember, just dodge
Most of the time subs don’t bother me but in a game couple of days ago a sub was able to torp me to death and I never saw him once. He followed me almost all the way across the map. He shot like 20 torps. can’t dodge them all. If it was like this all the time I’d be pissed but it doesn’t so not too upset about it
I decided to have a go of the u-190, since their first iteration, must be my 3rd or 4th game in a sub, last time was on test server and when we had soviet subs. Twin brothers map, full yolo by my team to the eastern side leaving me and a tirpitz and omaha against; Aoba, Lazo, Myoko, Atago, Amagi and New mexico. I terrorised the lot of them, nailed the NM and Atago and literally ping spammed and torpedo spammed baiting people to blow the DCP's. It was rather boring frankly, literally sat within 8km of that lot and dived when needed. Yawn. I got neg-repped to hell and needed a shower afterwards.
i find sub gameplay even more boring than cv gameplay
I was in Harbin, right on top of a t6 sub, got 14 depth charge hits, still not dead....
I'm still leaning towards CVs being worse though to be honest - you can 'theoretically' outrun subs or put an island between them and yourself (yeah you'll probably be putting yourself out of position but at least it's "something") . You are right in everything you say here though - they are exceptionally poorly implemented. The only thing the community can do is to refuse to play with sub players, but you can't even team-kill any more.
Still find subs less cancerous than skip bombers - that drop bombs out of AA range altogether. So now you don't even have "interaction" with the NPCs - not that AA "interaction" matters in any way shape or form anyway.
I had a similar experience with my Ohio in 2 matches, and have decided not to play randoms above T7 until something is done with subs. will still play ranked and maybe a bit of CO-OP which have have not done a lot of apart from naval battles.
Subs dont belong in random.
Been basically screaming this since the first iteration and they were detectably worse this time even before I've seen/read what they changed!!! 1000% worse than CVs for a multitude of reasons!
Near the top of my list is citing how frustrated ppl can get it the lack of direct counterplay to CVs, this is worse in a way. At least you aren't seeing the CV but can't shoot it.....waaaay more frustrating imo when you can nearly touch an enemy ship, but can't shoot it. Not to mention some ships(ie: dutch cruisers) that have NO anti-sub ANYTHING!!!
So dumb
this game is no fun. you can do 200k dmg sometimes but when your team is bad, you loose. winrate says NOTHING in this game, its unbalanced as hell.
As others have sai, subs, cvs, super ships pushing me away from the game. Had a game where a sub drove underneath me in a bb, pop up behind me. Run me down and split my head open. Fun and engaging…….
Never say "they couldn't do any worse". Weegee's answer to this is invariably "challenge accepted!"
Add in the fact that you can "porpoise" the sub between 15-20 depth and you can constantly spot while having shell immunity and still able to fire your torps.....good times...fml
You dont spot at this depth actually
The threat of the "Uninstall: Enmasse" is viable when the Devs go off the rails this hard. Vote with yer wallets.
Yep. Running away is the only way to deal with submarines. Run to a tier without submarines. Or run to another game.
I totally agree with your assessment about subs. I was in a battle today on Islands of Ice in a Tier X Hindenburg. Within the first 2 min of battle, as I was slowly making my way forward, I was attacked by a Tier X Balao which I could not spot at all. The sub pinged me and even after I negated the ping with my damage control, it still managed to hit me with all its torpedoes and I simply died. From full health to zero health within two min of battle commencing. I was not even able to advance far enough to be able to help anyone in my team. Our team eventually lost the battle and I came at the bottom of the results list of my team. So, your assessment that subs are worse than CVs is totally true. At least you can see the planes from a CV coming at you and be able to dodge its rockets, or bombs or torpedoes. But with subs and their homing torpedoes, you just don't stand any chance at all. Subs are just too tanky and their homing torpedoes do way too much damage. It is no fun at all when you die within the first two min of battle and not being able to do anything about it.
Good luck handling subs who know how to perform the dolphin technique. When they do that, they’re able to spot and attack with all the benefits of being periscope depth, while having none of the weaknesses. Shots cannot hurt you. You cannot be spotted, not even by planes, unless they use hydro or they proxi-spot you, meaning the only real way to kill them when they do that is if you drop enough depth charges on them if they make a big mistake. Good luck with that. On the bright side, at least carriers will get a nice taste of their own medicine for a while from players who do perform the dolphin technique since they will have zero counter play, and so have zero chance. But regular surface ships won’t fair too much better either really so… yeah… this is after 3+ years of testing and development guys. I learned about this from a video Flamu did. Even if you don’t like him and/or his videos, it’s still worth taking a look at it just so you know what I’m talking about if you don’t know about it.
Running away doesn't work either. You just get torps up the rear.
your gonna needs lots a hem cream bruh
Is it just me or are subs immune to radar and hydro as well? When submerged.
I found the best counterplay for submarines...uninstall the game. As long as subs are in the game, not coming back, and yes I am a whale with basically every premium ship in the harbor and over 2000 dragon flags. I dont care, WG ruined the game and I am gone.
Bye then lol i'm a whale too and ill make up for you going. stop trying to somehow blackmail wargaming because you don't like something just go and dom't let the door hit you on the way out BYE BYE
I've been lucky and have been able to counter subs fairly effectively. It's the super carriers I've come to really dislike. If they want to take you out of the game there's nothing you can do. Wave after wave hit so fast and you are out of the game. I've been playing a lot more lower tiers lately because of this and the current game economy.
The damage output on the DC air strikes is on purpose.
They don’t want you to outright kill the Sub with depth charge airstikes like the last round of testing, they aren’t supposed to kill it outright but force them to pull back or eat chip damage, similar to fire or flooding tick damage in a sense. Subs main point they’re supposed to be wiped with their low HP is if you force or catch them on the surface.
Well, if a Sub was spotted for a DD or plane with bombs or DC historically ... we all know who SHOULD DIE.
@@Choukai_Chan History has nothing to do with this game anymore, its a arcade game where CV's have limitless amount's of planes, Ships move way faster than they should, DD's get more than one set of torpedoes, etc. Dont bring history into this it was thrown out the window long ago.
I personally have studied a fair bit of game design, and it does make me understand why Wargaming does certain things, and why they won't make "obvious" changes. For example why Wargaming won't take away CV's ability to spot for their team. If you've ever been in a battle with no radar on your team and on top of that all of your DDs are gunboats and the other team has radar and stealthy DDs, you will know you are basically going to lose that battle from the start, your team has no real way of ever finding those stealthy DDs and they are going to win the battle on their own, with a CV around it covers for DDs being able to put out hundreds of thousands of damage from stealth every few minutes by giving your team a way to spot them. Sure the DD doesn't have fun being spotted by a CV, but the entire enemy team doesn't have fun not being able to find that DD as he just picks them off one by one. CVs do fill an important role in keeping DDs balanced.
That said, subs are terrible right now. As demonstrated depth charge drops do basically no damage, the drops from most T10s deal 2600 damage, and seem to follow standard pen rules, so really you only get 1/3rd of that damage. Even if they dealt full damage it's still only 2600 damage 3 times every 25 seconds, against a target with 20k+ HP. Problem number two is the ships designed for countering Subs, those being DDs and Light Cruisers, really can't. How does a Gearing find a sub? Answer, hope it's on the surface and get within 2.3km, if it's below periscope depth, you just can't spot it. Oh well follow the oil and splashes! Well that's great in theory, but in practice those take around a second to long to appear to be of any use. You could drop depth charges from a Gearing right on an oil slick and miss completely, then see the next oil slick appear around a km or two away in the opposite direction you thought he was going.
Well okay then, how about Z-52 it has hydro surely that helps! Well... no. It still has to get lucky and find the sub ether on the surface at 2.3km or with it's hydro running it can find subs in the depths at... 2km. Assured detection range. The range that you are supposed to always spot ships at anyway yet for some reason don't in subs. Keep in mind that whole time the sub is spotting Z-52 from around 6km away, and a spotted DD is a dead DD.
Well okay how about light cruisers like Minotaur! Surely it stands a better chance being a bigger ship with better armaments! Nope, same problem only this time it's spotted from 9km away and is easier to kill.
The issue with subs, and it's something everyone knows is there is no counter play to Subs. You can argue there is none against CVs but there is, it's just not something you actively have to do, with subs you have NOTHING you can do. I honestly feel like Wargaming know this, but also know if you could counter subs easier no one would play them, unless they made them into full on glass cannons where they deal stupid high damage but are likely to die the moment they start launching torps.
An easy solution to this issue would be to go back to one of their initial ideas, make the sub visible the moment it pings, to make that a little more balanced for the sub, have ships outside of ping range only see the icon on the mini-map if it's under periscope distance. Not like you can do anything about a sub that far away anyway unless it's on the surface, then it should be spotted by ships outside of ping range. That would allow for counter-play, and would encourage more risky play from subs, where they would have to wait to ping or risk dieing before their torps reach the target. It would also open subs up to play more like British DDs that can only single fire torps. They would be taking lower risk playing like that, but likely get less reward. I would also make CV bombs and rockets able to deal splash damage to subs. You can't tell me it makes sense that Akizuki's 100mm(62lb) shell has splash radius, and Midway's AN-M66 2000lb bomb doesn't. Even Mackensen's 88mm shells have splash radius to them that shell weighs in the region of 20 lbs, and only has just under 2 pounds of explosives. Sure that would mean the British could wreck a Subs day, but they need to be able to wreck something why not make it subs?
you need 2,5 sets of waterbombs right onto it to kill the sub. You even need more Main gun shots with DD´s to kill a sub than you need to kill other DDs...despite the HP. There is a video documenting the tests.
You've got to hit a sub above the waterline otherwise shells typically just skip off the surface of the water. If they do manage to penetrate they loose their kinetic energy in just a few yards of water.
You know, DDs are at great risk fighting subs. Their rediculous underwater speed typically keeps the DD to about a 10kt closure rate. That takes forever if the DD is approaching from behind. It causes DDs to approach in a straight line for the fastest closure rate making it easier for enemy warships to target and hit the DD.
by this point, I wouldn't be surprised for WG to come up with somethink like DDs dropping sea mines to help with subs but ofc they'd do more damage to surface ships than subs
Love how Ohio ASW is 6 KM and some range play cruisers like German, etc get depth charges rather than air drop.
Stupid WG could have just added ships and skins to profit. Instead, they really want to promote subs resented by both teams. As a teammate, they tend to just go all the way in and surface and die. As an enemy, they can guard a pretty large area and don't get punished by bad moves. I only play DDs, long-range HE cruisers, or highly accurate guns bbs now and never touched functional cruisers or close-range combat BBs since subs were out. Also, I hate subs so much that in a game, I would rather turn out, show broadside, and die from 4 citadels from a BB than letting subs do any damage to me. Fk them. recently I have a 75 % plus winning rate for gun-built DDs and I can't go anywhere when playing Germain BBs. I guess I helped my team win more efficiently by killing enemy DDs and making sure that their subs cant provide much spotting. DDs are still OK but I miss playing cruisers and BBs though.
WG: What do you want us to do? Make subs, something that we've been developing and spent far too much money on fair and balanced? Haha. We've investigated balancing issues ourselves and found everything is perfectly fine. Stop complaining, you don't know what you're talking about. Only WG knows what's best for you, not you, aka the people who actually play the game and have to deal with it.
If you are interested go look at a list of WARSHIPS sunk by submarines in WWII. You'll find with few exceptions, like the Indianapolis that subs were killing cripples as they attempted to return from a battle or they were catching ships passing through restricted waters like between the barrier islands and the main islands in the Marianas. They just didn't have the speed or endurance to "chase" warships. Often they were sent out ahead of a fleet like the IJN did prior to Midway to scout. This is why they would be in the vicinity of a battle and have the opportunity to hunt cripples. They would also be tasked with sinking refueling and supply ships which would follow fleets around.
long ago we said: WG fucking up their game one update at a time. I'm so glad I don't p(l)ay anymore. I still love the look and feel but I've stopped yearning for "the old and balanced" version of this game and just watch others now. I've said I hope WG will change "whatever" way too many times to ever believe they'll change anything anymore. All I hope for now is some day someone will make a better version. A damn shame to see game managers shitting on their community like this.
There is plenty of counterplay against carriers it's just that a lot of players, like this Potato Quality guy, don't want to adjust their gameplay accordingly. He complains all of the time about carriers yet plays as if there is no carrier in the game at all. He did a Grozovoi video where he just complained and complained about the Shokau that fixated on him yet he was out all by himself for most of the game. The counterplay against carriers is long-term plane bleed, because the planes regenerate slowly, which ends up leaving the team with lesser situational awareness/stacked AA with a carrier on the other team that still has effective flights at the end of the game while the lesser team is left calling their carrier player a "noob" because he's left with flights of one or two planes. And NOOOOO the best carrier player in the world can't dodge his way through stacked AA or correctly played ships that force the attack runs to cross over islands or chase. I play while I watch TV and even then I have never had a situation where I couldn't deal with a carrier regardless of tier spread unless it was the result of a mistake on my part. Subs are still a WIP and the only time I've had a problem with subs is when I mess up or my team is already outnumbered. The solution for players like Potato Quality is to stick to Tier 1 where he'll never run into carriers or any other ship types that make him alter his approach to the battle and he'll get just the kind of reduced variable gameplay he's looking for.
Well, I just stopped playing, since I want fun and competitive gameplay and don't have a lot of time. And MM with carrier, PL and Smolensk on my flank is totally not fun. So this is my workaround for submarines.
If WoWS ever starts a new server with the promise that there would never be subs or CVs added, I would create a new account there immediately. I'd abandon Halsey, Cunningham, Lutjens, the Ohio, the Salem, the Goliath, on and on and on, if I had to, just to play a game that's fun again.
I feel your pain PQ. It was just last night a sub popped up 1.8 km in front of my cruiser and released a beeline of homing torps at point blank range for a dev strike and to add insult to injury my final salvo which was also point blank did 0 damage. I was so mad I did something I don't normally do. I went to the forum to vent. lol Which is usually a bad mistake since the frequenters usually like to contradict player's concerns not because their concerns are not legit but because it's cool to be a dick on the forum.
They are not going away WG has a hard on for subs and they are here to stay. I just got back into Warships after years away and I was really enjoying playing Intel this version of subs popped back up. They are almost unsinkable one on one. I think they should have subs in game to only commanders who have subs in there port. So if you drive a sub now and then and have one in your port but are driving a DD for this game you may fight subs in your game. No subs in your port no subs in any of your games. That way the people that like subs and use them now and then get to fight them when they are in a BB, CV, DD what ever. Easy for the match maker to sift through the commanders that have subs. WG chased me off before I am sure they will do it again they are very good at it. Wish I would have stayed away but I got the bug again. I think they put them back into the game super powerful so everyone will bitch and then they will nerf them to where they want them and satisfy the so called complainers. For most people that will work even if the subs still have to much power they will think they won the battle of subs and shut up. People aren't to bright these days.
I had 2 games back to back in the Cristoforo Columbo, both subs appeared at the same time about 1km from me. Couldn’t even get the depth charges off, they were too close.
Full health to dead in about 30 seconds exclusively from subs.
Submarines were convoy raiders, unless they were American submarines. Then they were murder anything that floats raiders (also trains, trains are on the murder list).
Check out Thunder Below about the USS Barb if you want some mission impossible level shit.
I doubt you guys are going to like the new ICBM player! So far the game play is one button to launch your nukes to destroy all the ships on the map, but you can’t push it until there is 10 minutes left in the match. They are thinking of cutting that to 5 if 10 seems too good.
Some DDs have almost unusable depth charges because they are almost impossible to reliably put on target. Some cruisers don't have any defense unless the sub surfaces and other have to suicide to get into position to use their ASW. So far the most reliable way I have found to deal with subs and avoiding them, until late game when their dive meter is near depleted, wait them out and then blast them as they are forced to surface.
The aggressive subs aren't too bad but it's the passive ones that are beyond annoying and they're fast enough that I can't outrun and at the same time makes it very difficult to force an engagment
But they won't. They've committed resources to development and they insist on selling them now, no matter what it does to the game.
Personally, the game isn't worth playing anymore. However, I'm glad others still play, since it's still entertaining to watch others suffering.
Submarines will never be worse than Carriers. They are broken, but Carrier abilities just kills all kinds of gameplay elements, so much that they should be in their own game. Not mode, but game.
I've found myself asking the same question, what is the counter play? push up with mos to support my dds, here comes unavoidable torps. try to cap as a dd, still spotted, like come on.
The fact you can't heal basically any of the damage either is ridiculous. I got caught out in thunderer lost 39k health and couldn't heal any of it. If you could heal like 75 percent or something it would be loads better
There were acoustic torpedoes, but WG as always makes things balanced
In retrospect - it might’ve been better if they had made them super glass cannony, with a very long reload, fitting a bit more into the niche raider/scout playstyle style…
What they hit hurts, but if they get hit by anything, they’re dead
They really want subs to be hard counters to carriers because even BBs can defend themselves better. If you end up 1 on 1 against a sub in a cv, you might as well go afk because good luck hitting the sub
WG uses "historical" to its own ends... "Historical" stops as soon it becomes inconvienient. They really like to gaslight players who dislike what they want to push into game.
Play one time Gouden Leeuw with 2 subs and u can do NOTHING, u havent waterbombs. With this shit they destroy other ships.
I just was in a game with Shimakaze chasing after a Balao - got guided torped to death. How in the world are we supposed to play against or counter subs?
People need to understant => its not the developers, they only do what they get paid to do. The decisions are made by someone else. They can hire the best developers, and subs wont change if WG says so.
Same with depth chargers. I had two drop from a dd on the top of a subs and he still survived.
The subs are better then some of the modern diesel subs of today. Controllable torps fast under water speed for the sub. I have struggled to match their speed let alone catch them so I could drop depth charges.
The only counterplay to a sub is to turn around and full w back in to spawn.
is the same with dds, when you dont have radar, there is not much to do.
but since is fine that for wg, they guess the subs are fine that way too.
And is not fun for both, only for dpm farmers.
Got 7 depth charges on a T8 sub with the Sejong, then landed 6 hits on him when he surfaced at about 3km and that was not enough to kill him. ASW now is really aenemic.
On a side not Potato, I've noticed you have a really static playstyle, you are making it really really easy for subs doing that. You make it easy to ping you and really easy to torp you. If you keep moving at speed you will make it a lot harder for them to tag you.
My favorite match is the 3 sub/2cv matches.....
Oh boy in the Italian tier 6 dd, that was no fun.
The only thing we as players can do, is not play until they are removed from general game play. And in all honestly I don't see that happening.
Submarines in Wows shows how utterly clueless WG and the fanbois truly are. This ships where never created to chase warships
so, what is the new jUsT dOdGe in 2022?
5:53 wait, what year is it again? 2019?
Try charging towards/away from subs at an angle so you can reduce speed and turn in when the torps stop homing
I had a match yesterday, I hit a sub with 14 depth charges and didn't die....subs are so busted lol
If they made these things more glass-cannony then I might be inclined as to think they’re fine. But it’s when you have the “resources” on hand to deal with these things, and they just don’t give a fuck about what you’re throwing at them, that makes it really hard to justify their OPness. Same thing with aircraft carriers and their armor, based on the consistent amount of potential damage they have.