In a way I don't want them to do a new Mordheim. I'm sure they'll screw it up. Or change the tone or look or feel to something that's more akin to Aos. Which would be just awful. Keep Mordheim free. It's alive and well as is.
Part of Mordehim’s strength is that it is now a community led game, open to all types of miniatures. GW claiming the IP back would certainly cause an influx of new players but on the other hand it would potentially damage the current community, which is awesome.
I’d like to see Warcry’s next location move to be in a city. The campaign rules are pretty solid and could perhaps scratch the itch of a more recognizable location. Could use the Cursed City setting or something similar.
I haven’t played since Beastgrave but I like that Underworlds exists. They really do a good job with the models and the game itself is one of their better. A lot of the changes they made for this edition are for long term viability so the intent seems to try to keep it alive.
There is so much fun and potential to use non-GW minis in Mordheim probably has something to do with it. But also the small amount of model needed to play. The money isn’t there to get them interested I think. I’m happy with it, who needs a new edition, the OG is fine as it is and freely available.
As a huge Mordhiem fan, I am fine with them never touching it, specialist studio is really hit and miss for my taste. Honestly I think an old world based warhammer quest is a better bet ...
Lack of Mordheim fits into my theory on GW strategy. Mordheim is too volatile. It's very popular, but does that translate into sales? How many sales? Cult favorites are hard to gauge. Make too much; lose money. Make too little; fans angry. The safe move : do nothing. GW tends towards : Don't make what your customers want, tell them what they want.
GW would screw it up. Just like most the stuff they've been producing lately. Our group plays the original game. I bought most of it, (minis, supplements, etc.) In 99. I hope they leave it alone. Nobody has any faith in GW doing a good job.
People tend to say this, but by and large Blood Bowl going back 'in house' seems to have been viewed as a generally positive development and while it might not have been exactly an overnight success, WFB seems to have been revitalised by the new edition. Necromunda is probably a matter of taste since the new game is very different from the old one, but I don't think it had really survived as a game in the way Mordheim and Blood Bowl had anyway, so there wasn't really much of a community to upset. Legions Imperialis might be a dud as a ruleset, but new models mean new toys for the NetEpic community who just find ways to use them within their preferred edition of the game, so even what seems to have been a failed relaunch by GW has its advantages.
I'm guessing War Cry will get some kind of new season with climbable ruins. That seems like the safest route for them at the moment. Hell, the next War Cry season could have you searching ruins for warpstone in the realm of fire. Fits with the AoS 4 lore.
What i think they should do, use it like current kill team. First release being mordheim, new plastic kits for the old warbands with rules for use in old world. Then once they get through them, release a new campaign book in a different setting like lusteria etc.
That was in part the problem: as Goonhammer pointed out in a recent retrospective, Mordheim is not that good as a game system so using it for one-off games isn't great. The entire point of Mordheim was campaigns - and the computer game had a barebones campaign system and no multiplayer campaign system (just one-off skirmishes). You'd never develop stories of the same rival gang leveling up and playing against yours in grudge matches over time, and the starting selection of warbands was also very small. If GW took Mordheim back in-house I suspect they'd do what they did with Necromunda and make it a game better-suited to one-off games, with a lot more unique warband specialists and gear you can hire at the start. That cost me any interest in new Necromunda, as I liked the idea of a Wild West of identikit gangs of low-grade thugs who developed their own skills, special equipment and stories organically through a campaign rather than the current Kill Team-like set of specialists each backed by well-funded houses and other patrons. I do think Mordheim is better-suited to that sort of thing as it had a much more diverse set of warbands initially, but its popularity rested heavily on the campaign system and the understated genius of the henchmen/heroes distinction, as well as campaign mechanics that perhaps made more sense seen as roleplaying than as practical game systems.
always funny to see gatekeepers like this in the comments. if gw releases a new mordheim you can still 3d print shit, play the first edition with your friends. gw should release a new mordheim like they did for necromunda. new necromunda is the best game theyve ever made.
Most of GW's customers - some 80% - do not play the games, we just buy the models to paint, collect. This was revealed in Business Insider iirc when a journalist asked. Plus it's obvious. Underworld and Warcry exist purely to create much more interesting miniatures for people to "buy to paint" the game was just a rational ploy to stimulate those sales. GW are increasingly competing with companies that whilst the game is not played - say Malifaux - they are making high-standard plastics that look cool and attract people. This is the logic behind those two games. Instead of buying that team of really cool looking killer clowns or batman models or whatever, they want you to drop the £20 on a GW product where ever model is likewise a character in its own right. Mordheim like Necormunda would require significant effort and would be in competition with other games more so than the models as well as GW's own products.
We didn't get Space Hulk back for its 30th anniversary in 2019, or its 35th this year. Though WHQ is an officially still supported brand and it's been long enough since Cursed City that a new game is probably due.
Mordheim doesnt need GW to exist, and Mordheim players do not need GW. It best that they dont bother. We can go buy whatever models we want to play a game whose rules are available for free online.
How can it be garbage time if its not made of garbage? I'm of the mind that - echoing many of the other commenters - I'm cool if they just don't touch it. As others pointed out, Mordheim lives in the community, without "support". I don't need a suit from Nottingham trying to harsh my mellow with 14 books.
Another well spent garbage time I would be so into a well done xcom style tactics game in any universe, be it 40k, or fantasy Small scale skirmish games would translate very well to that medium, and I fell like it is a decent sized genre at this point, so long as it is well done you would get the knock on effect of drawing new customers into the IP and selling to fans of the IP that already exist The HBS battletech game got me into tabletop battletech, I had fond memories of the mechwarrior games as a kid but honestly didn’t even realize then it was part of a larger IP
They did make a Mordheim vidoe called City of the Damned. I liked it when I was younger, but it was just okay. I had wanted it to be top down more tactics focused like an RPG, but it ended up as a 3rd person turn based game. It was a bit odd.
imo they should wait til old world gets a 2nd edition, make sure its a stable staple and then introduce it as the skirmish version of old world. honestly ive bought so many kill teams, warcry warbands and underworlds packs, never played a single game of any of those things. im buying the models for aos and 40k. i get the impression kill team actually has a decent amount of players. does warcry and underworlds tho? i dunno. i think mordhiem would work as a game and work as a feeder for interesting models over to old world.
20min mark is always where the quality is. If your goal is to print and sell as much plastic as this year you need 2 to 4 big releases right? Horus Heresy, Warcry, and X and possibly y. Personally I think gw should go for the Ringo Star of old games.. Man-o-War.
I'd most like an AoS edition of Warmaster, but I can't see it happening. There's no point revisiting the original for GW, as there are huge numbers of third party companies supporting it. I do wonder whether there may also be rights issues. GW tried to put a brave face on using a less popular edition of Epic as the basis for Legions Imperialis, but at the end of the day all the staff behind Epic 40k and Warmaster moved to Warlord and those two rulesets under different names are basically the entire output of Warlord Games as a company. As ferocious as GW is at protecting its IP, I doubt they had the foresight to extend that to registering specific game mechanics. It may be that they simply don't have the rights to use the Epic 40,000, Epic Armageddon or Warmaster rulesets. Even GW is surely not so out of touch that they imagine Space Marine would sell better than Epic Armageddon because it did 20-30 years ago - everything from Warlord's success to the Epic community favouring the later editions would have warned them that the older ruleset hasn't aged well, so there must be some other reason they rereleased that.
@@philipbowles5397 you cannot copywrite game mechanics, so i doubt its a legal issue. I tend to think what comes out of the specialist studio is more a reflection of the personal preferences of the designer. From the corporations POV the rules are not that important, as neat minis, IP and nostalgia are the product with the rules being a marketing component. Yes better rules if we can but its ok if they are average. I never played Epic so i cannot judge, i have played Bolt Action and own a copy of Black Powder. Personally, i agree that they would be better off looking at some of these older games, Man-o-War, Warmaster to the more flexible setting of AOS but I doubt they will. Firstly because Nostalgia is part of the sale. Dreadfleet flopped partly due to timing but partly because it was not Man-o-War which is what the geriatrics wanted. Secondly AOS is not that strong an IP. It does not have as much cultural cut through as the old world, mostly due to its age. If i were GW I would be actively trying to build the AOS IP exposure through videogames, boardgames etc.
@@EarlofChutney I don't know if Dreadfleet flopped - it was always a one-off board game release, it wasn't planned as a specialist game. It's the sort of thing that could have sustained expansions, certainly, but I don't know if that was ever planned had it been more successful. Both the Warhammer World and 40k had more cultural capital by the end of their first decade than AoS does, and at that time only the earliest computer games were coming out (and, notoriously, GW dropped the ball in not permitting Blizzard to use the Warhammer IP for their new Warcraft game). I'm not sure why it's had so much trouble getting traction - the lack of successful computer games can't help, but both 40k and WFB sold those games on the strength of the IP in the first place. Total War fans were asking for a Warhammer version for years before it happened, so fan interest in the setting put it on CA's radar (also, they had the advantage that Creative Assembly was British, as the WFB IP in particular was always best-known in the UK). It might be as simple as the time it was released into - 40k is so synonymous with GW that a lot of people are unaware of 'other Warhammers', which obviously wasn't the case when the others emerged.
@@philipbowles5397 A good point on IP before video games. Warcraft and Starcraft were probably the biggest boat GW ever missed. I call Dreadfleet a flop as it was (at least in the areas of the internet i circled in) considered a flop at the time, even for a one off boardgame release. Obviously, i am not privy to GWs sales figures but it was regarded as a failure by many. Perhaps Lords of War Games and Hobbies have a better idea/memory of this.
Interesting topic for sure! Leaving Mordheim alone is perfect. Heresy 2.0 is a great example of "it wasn't broken and you tried to fix it". If they can just leave the old stuff alone that would be great. I am grateful they don't touch something like Warmaster.
Mordeheim: City of the Damed (2015) and Mordheim: Warband Skirmish (2017, for mobile) were both video games based off Mordheim, and were fairly successful. I think the current success of Mordheim is in part due to the openness of it being a fan supported game. While not quite as organized as Warmaster Revolution with rules overview, it is still very active. I will allow that some changes need to be addressed concerning weapons and perhaps armor which a new edition may bring into line. I am not confident could put new minis as customizable as they were in 1998, and customization is a key factor in a warband. Nor do I think they could produce terrain on par with what is currently available on the 3rd party market. But most importantly, I don't think GW could capture the grimdark aesthetic of Mordheim.
Next year SHOULD have a new edition of Warcry. Looking at the current Skaven nuking cities storyline they could make the new edition of Warcry an urban setting in tainted ruins...
That's exactly what the new Underworlds setting is - people were speculating that, indeed, Embergard would be the next Warcry setting. But whether or not Warcry will get a new edition at all seems up in the air.
The city of Shadespire would have potential for an AOS skirmish setting like Warcry. Beyond a couple of pages here and there it was never really developped. I think that waiting for Old World to be more fully released makes sense. Many miniatures, especially from the Empire range, port over directly into Mordheim. They could keep the old mordheim rules and put the new Mordheim in a different city in the same timeline as the Old World.
A melding of a new old world warhammer skirmish and mordheim. Allowing you to have campaigns across the old world not just in a single city. Allows for selling of different terrain and lots of different warbands.
The Empire in Flames (and Lustria and Khemri) rules for Mordheim did exactly that, and are probably part of the reason the game lasted past the end of official support.
I don’t really want or need Mordheim to come back, I think they would be unable to release it without fiddling with it too much. What both players who played it on release and players who were not alive yet enjoy is the wild swings, the narrative campaign rules, and the playing of course. There’s already a more “flat” and balanced game with Warcry. Don’t think a company that releases articles named “Meta Watch” should try to do a game like Mordheim. :)
You know what, give me Mordheim 2: Electric Boogaloo as a co-op/solo game and I’ll pick up a box. Hopefully they actually release the expansions this time….
Seconded. Mostly because you can play mordheim using a myriad of different models from a myriad of different companies. BFG never really enjoyed its potential in model production, since plastic models are 2 cruiser kits and everything else in metal. But with the tech they have now, they could nearly make 1 or 2 largish sprues for each faction and it would be enough to cover their entire range for that faction as well as all the options to build them.
I'm actually making a Mordheim warband, from old war kits, after coming in from Age of Sigmar/40k. I have no nostalgia for it, but what I want is to be part of the scene kit bashing and scratch building Mordheim stuff. I'm definitely for reprinting the rulebook, but otherwise I'd be very pleased they leave it completely as is. I definitely would be a lot less interested if there was a "correct" set of models, or "correct" scenery and layout. The GW orthodoxy can be very strong
Good on you. The kitbashing side of the hobby used to be far more apparent in GW games including 40k to really make them your guys but the advent of rigid gear for characters really. A librarian with a jump pack was an easy conversion but a librarian on a bike? Not only shows off some skill but is very characterful for a white scars or ravenwing force!
there is a mordheim city of the damned video game that is exactly like the necromunda game. turn based overhead combat. made by rogue factor games. they had a few expansions with it. kinda buggy at times being a small studio but it is enjoyable.
I can always listen to people speculate about Mordheim. That's how much I love it! I was watching a video just this morning where Summon Lesser Maker had molds of the old Mordheim windows so that he could make more. I thought to myself, look at the ingenuity and effort this community will go to so that they can recreate this game. Why GW hasn't taken advantage of that, I really don't know, and I don't mean that as an insult to GW. I just can't fathom it. They must have their reasons. If they made anything new for Mordheim I hope they'd lean into the character over detail. Those old Mordheim minis had soooo much character, and AoS minis have so much detail - skulls and jewels and trinkets galore to paint, but that wouldn't feel like Mordheim. The simplicity of the old man necromancer holding up his skull and sword, or the elf holding his cloak around him. Lightning in a bottle, man. I agree a one and done sort of deal could work with Mordheim. All of their on-going games always have that competitive, crunchy game rules slant. Mordheim would have to lean so hard into the roleplay, narrative focus for it to work, I think. Something they don't do very much of these days. Also, I think right about the time that they announced the timeline of Old World, which is set right about the same time as Mordheim, I think? It got everyone speculating, and a GW fellow was asked about that, and he said, "We have no plans for Mordheim." Just a hard no. Makes me think it's unlikely, unfortunately, considering GW tends to plan stuff out pretty far in advance, don't they? Anyway, appreciate the video and I always enjoy Mordheim talk.
There's a Mordheim video game, but it's probably best forgotten... It was in that period a few years when Games Workshop were giving every tiny unproven developer under the sun a licence.
Sadly that was also the time they gave out the Underworlds licence for a computer game. I really hope they revisit the Underworlds Online concept with a developer capable of delivering a usable UI, stable multiplayer, and reasonably timely content (or, if limited to one of the three, stable multiplayer - that game being all but unplayable when not vs AI must have done a lot to harm it).
No, they said 2024 was. They were celebrating the year of Chaos headlined by Skaven (but with significant releases for Chaos Space Marines, Warriors of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness and Chaos Dwarfs in four different rulesets) coming to a close, not announcing a coming Year of Chaos.
My friends and I have regularly played Mordheim since its release. It’s the best skirmish game they’ve ever made. It’s still perfectly playable in its original form, and models are now readily available.
Believe awhile ago rumor was warcry second edition was going to push more towards campaign play like Mordheim. With Warcry supposed to be next year, I could see them using it to feel out people's interest for it.
Day 4 of asking for a hex based apology. Jokes aside though, you were obviously right when you were saying Underworlds had gone quiet for months and may have died. I believe they had 2 more warbands ready to come, but seeing the success of Nemesis, decided to repurpose them on a new Edition which has been designed with Nemesis in mind. But there's just some things as someone who's main game system is Underworlds that I'd like to point out. Here are some pros of the system that I enjoy. - Very small model count, I like to paint variety and this lets me paint 4-5 models and move on. I never finish armies. - Tight rule set, no inaccuracies with measuring makes for a more competitive game if you want it - Travelling to events, you can fit everything into the box it comes in comfortably, which means can travel with it a small backpack - Nemesis, perfect blend of deck building without needing to own every card lets people enter the hobby easier. - Games are comfortably played within 1 hour. This also means you suffer less when it becomes obvious you can't win. - The game does remain the cheapest to buy in. One core box is all you need to play, and expansions are still only £25 for models or £15 for decks. Only Kill Team and Warcry can compete on price. In the UK scene, Underworlds is definitely steadily growing due to the above. There has become a sort of circuit of events now between the major cities in the midlands/north and then another one in the south. Most events can be travelled to in the morning and are one day events since each game lasts for 1 hour. There are many key players in the Underworld scene that work for GW and have sway on their decisions. Its likely they have pushed to keep the game too, knowing the above pros very well. There are, of course, some cons of the game. But the new edition appears to be trying to fix them. - Availability of older warbands, fixed by having all legal warbands available. - Feels bad defensive play (longboarding) fixed by the one board system. - Too many cards to learn, fixed by removing faction cards and keeping a smaller pool by using universal rivals decks only. - Terrible card wording which is confusing and annoying to read, fixed on the new decks, they read much better The veteran players aren't all sold on the new edition as it does seem to be a bit watered down, but I remain optimistic and hope it does do well. Hope my perspective at least explains a little bit of what's going on inside the system :)
Better to use a name name for an old IP, bringing it under the WH banner for simplicity of shopping sake while also inundating Mordheim from THE MESSAGE.
The old kits were like building legos; the new ones are like Ikea furniture. The models look great but building it is just a chore now, instead of something that was fun all by itself. I hadn't thought about Mordheim as following the Old World template either but that just makes a ton of sense and would be very smart. Now we just need to figure out why they're keeping Underworlds on life support, because that one still stumps me.
@@Tulkash01 I just finished building an Anvil of Doom and it sucked, but that's not what I was talking about. Build a new assault intercessors with jump packs unit, and then build a classic assault marines unit, and tell me which was fun and which felt like a job you just had to get through to get to the fun part.
I mean the metal kits were always difficult (I got an MTO Orc shaman on wyvern and wow that was not fun to get built) but really here I'm talking about the plastics ... the thing about their big metal kits is they don't have any anymore, outside of TOW MTO.
I don't see them as keeping Underworlds on life support - I seem them as relaunching it because it failed the first time, but it still has enough potential to work as the marketing tool GW needs it to be that it makes more sense to make a more 'user-friendly' game that isn't sabotaged by its own marketing than to make something all-new to fill that role.
Mordheim would definitely do better than Underworlds but that’s an excessively low bar. The issue with a pure nostalgia game like Mordheim is a lot of the people who actually play have been outside the GW ecosystem for so long, much like Bloodbowl, and they won’t have anywhere near the same spending habits as the average GW buyer. Cursed City was one of the worst dungeon crawlers I’ve played, GW can’t just produce boxed games when there are dozens of way better games out there.
The new Edition of Underworlds feels like it has a lot of parallels to x-wing 2.0. All your cards etc are scrapped. You can use your old models, but.. If you want physical cards for existing warbands you can buy the new versions, etc I can’t see this reinvigorating the game.
There won't be physical cards for the warbands beyond fighter and warscroll cards - which are easy enough to print once the rules are made available. They evidently either had production issues keeping the old cards in stock or it was uneconomical, so this lets them keep everything needed to play the game in stock. This is a relaunch - it's not aimed at people who played the existing edition particularly, since Underworlds didn't really hit the apparently intended audience. It's a standalone board game that people can buy whichever expansion content they want for, similar to the Fantasy Flight Living Card Game model or board games like Uncharted. GW players will play it and completists like me will collect all the content, but I think the main intended market is people at board game clubs and nights who are already familiar with that marketing model and used to buying only what they want to improve their experience. It's a game first and foremost for people who don't play GW games.
I think you guys are making the common mistake of 'my local meta' is the industry meta... Underworlds probably bottomed out 3 years ago but rebounded when they switched to rivals deck support. There's a healthy Underworlds scene around NYC and the game in the UK is seeing very solid turnout for their events. 'no one has played it in years' is local to you.. As a profit driven entity, they'd drop it if it made them zero money.. Maybe that happens at some point (almost definitely as all the niche games die).. But don't mistake your locality for the industry
I mean the 'local meta' we are referring to is still a region with like 10 million people. I think you your point is still fair but we didn't drum up our take out of some tiny dataset regarding our shop alone.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 and for a billion dollar company with a global audience that's still small in terms of their whole 'market' .. NYC metro area is probably quadruple that in numbers and I wouldn't call the healthy Underworlds scene here representative of the whole.. Just saying local meta doesn't tell the tale of the smaller games..now 40k and kill team are probably big sellers in both places but secondary games might vary wildly
One of the best things about Mordheim is that it's not currently supported. People getting into and putting effort into playing unsupported games seem to have a less competitive ethos.
Mordheim is a very old game, so it would never be reproduced exactly, it would be a 'reboot'. But GW is very different now to what it was in 1999, and the community is different too. It would make more sense to set it in the modern Warhammer, so it fits into the rest of the range. But isn't that what Warcry was when it was launched? A modern, 'low intensity', Warhammer skirmish game between rival gangs in a specific setting and with a distinctly dark tone. That game went through a different product development journey than Necromunda, so I assume it wasn't as successful, instead it morphed into more of a general Warhammer skirmish game. I have to assume that's because that's what the market wanted. I personally don't think nostalgia is a big factor, more important is the very strong (and slightly peculiar) art direction that game had, as well as the customization opportunities. Could GW reproduce that today? I'm not sure, they have moved away from both those things and it might be difficult to reproduce them.
I think underworlds is something more prevelant in the UK and possibly because it's playable in store and acts as a loss lead for AoS in getting people into the hobby
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 also seems to be failing spectacularly and is probably only being supported because they're making all these models in full-scale Heresy and can digitally shrink the moulds. But it does at least have an audience of existing NetEpic players who can repurpose the new models, so GW may not care if no one plays the game 'as intended'. Given that those same players only need so many aircraft there's not a lot of opportunity for extra Aeronautica sales that way. I do wish they'd stuck with Aeronautica long enough to make Archaeopters, though, especially with the new Mechanicum releases.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 agreed with the niche, and I think they tried to do a firehose on Star Wars x wing, which LI is effectively doing for the likes of drop zone commander. But regardless of that, if they did an updated Epic, I don't think that would be good for Legions. Legions is Space Marine, but Epic is beloved by a lot of folks. I'd drop LI for it without a thought.
What I don't get is GW loves their symmetry. SciFi and fantasy mainline with 40k and AoS, SciFi and fantasy historicals with Heresy and Old World, tight skirmish with Kill Team and Warcry, crunchy-wonky skirmish with Necromunda and.. Mordheim... obvi should be Mordheim. Sorry warhammer underpants.
There's also no epic scale fantasy in the style of Legions Imperialis and there's nothing quite like Underworlds or Bloodbowl in current 40k. So it's not total symmetry.
Why would Mordheim be anywhere? Not every GW game comes back. GW seems to make a lot of decisions based on tie-in games: Total War and computer Blood Bowl were successful so GW brought those games back 'in house'. Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 and Mordheim both failed so badly that they were dropped without getting DLC. It wouldn't surprise me if they'd eyed both for a relaunch but backtracked with those failures. The commercial uptake of Necromunda and Legions Impetialis is hardly likely to persuade GW to support more games just as a sop to nostalgia. Underworlds has nothing to do with whether Mordheim will come back in future - the current GW equivalent to Mordheim is Warcry, whose future is uncertain as no further support has been announced or hinted at I suspect that GW is belatedly learning that it needs each of its games to serve a specific marketing purpose - I doubt they'd have greenlit a return to Necromunda now if it wasn't already a supported game. I think they want Underworlds to provide GW visibility to board gamers and school groups where other Warhammer products won't usually be played. That failed the first time, but the game is good and suitable for that purpose - GW just dropped the ball on the marketing. So a relaunch makes sense. If it works, it will also grow visibility for Age of Sigmar as an IP, which GW desperately needs. The game is successful, but mostly among people who came from other Warhammer games. As an IP it remains all but unknown more widely, and has never had a successful tie-in computer game. GW now makes a lot of money from the IP, but that's nearly all from 40k. Tying themselves so strongly to one IP is a bad idea because fashions change, and AoS doesn't have the visibility the Warhammer World does even now. That may also be a justification for Necronunda -no one plays or buys it, but it keeps alive a semi-separate IP which, like Blood Bowl, exists as a sort of parallel universe to the core settings.
TBH, I don't really understand people saying Mordheim should come back or even say it's the best game ever. I'm still playing Mordheim nowadays, but in no way it is a game made with modern game design in mind (especially GW's obsession for balance). Besides, Warcry already exists, and it is litterally inspired from Mordheim but with more balance / less "unfun" mechanics. I think people saying it will come back just fundamentally don't understand it is not fitting in GW's current business.
@@darnon2031 The Blood Bowl video game being good really helped. And the Mordheim influencers literally giving recast tutorials must give them pause. Why put your vitals into the nest?
Absolutely do not want the current creatively bankrupt GW to touch Mordheim. The game is fine as-is and doesn't need a "new and improved" ruleset. All the minis can be gotten from other sets or stolen from bits and pieces that already exist. While I would love the idea of the old sets getting a re-release, you know that's not what would happen. I mean look at how they milk the dead cow of Underworlds.
I only think Underworld's is continuing out of a contractual obligation at this point. It was basically dead and the cards are so expensive to make. The money isn't there for actual Underworlds; 19/20 sales of Underworlds don't get used in Underworlds. Honestly feels like 79/80 moreso only because the sculpts go so hard. I have 7 Underworlds teams; all of the Gloomspite, Stormcoven, Skeletons, City Rivals box and all of the cards got recycled basically day 1. It's not a waste at all because I wasn't going to ever use them and I am happy to get those minis anyways. It would be cool if they could give us these awesome themed smaller sprues without sacrificing a bunch of trees and making a bunch of chinese color printing waste.
This channel does not have a lot to do with the hobby, it's store owners talking about and finding "interesting" whatever sells. a few weeks ago, Old World was dead according to these guys. Then they sold a few boxes or something and now "there might be something". You obviously don't care about any real game content and as store owners that's ok since you have to make a living but don't frame the content as hobby content. And obviously, there is a Mortheim video game for many years.
How a game sells has nothing to do with the hobby? I'm sorry but 20 years of hobby shop retail experience tells me you are very wrong about that mate. And we aren't hiding what we are doing - whether you like/appreciate it is entirely up to you. Thanks for the comment.
Okay, I’m gonna say it. Mordheim was a mid game with a phenomenal setting and aesthetic and boring gameplay. It also lost GW a fortune when it was originally released.
Mordheim is the most over hyped game ever that would 5 have this mythos if WHFB wasn't ended. The minis are meh, the rules are meh, it's overly complicated and long. Yes turbo neckbeards who love 6hr WHFB games enjoy it but literally nobody else does. Its fine.. but this is all nostalgia. Compared to modern stuff... Rules B, minis D, terrain C, fluff A. It's fine..
The setting has almost a 30yr headstart and nostalgia behind it. If you look at AoS lore since just before 3d onward it's actually really good if you like HIGH fantasy.
I prefer it. Never a big fan of the WH Fantasy setting. Too on the nose with the Tolkien theme. Seemed redundant once they started doing the LOTR games. AOS is weirder and I appreciate it. AOS lore is well ahead of where WH and 40k were in the same timeframe. I think people who have just decided they don't like it don't pay attention to it.
@@iantellam9970 I think it has its charms but pretending that pre 2000 (giving it the same age of AoS) was anything more than a derivative on Tolkien meets European folklore mashed up with late medieval actual history is bollocks. The weakest parts of AoS lore are tied to them carrying over things from WHFB frankly. The new ideas and exploration into high fantasy are the bright spots.
There is so much fun and potential to use non-GW minis in Mordheim probably has something to do with it. But also the small amount of model needed to play. The money isn’t there to get them interested I think. I’m happy with it, who needs a new edition, the OG is fine as it is and freely available.
Could say that about Necromunda, yet that came back with loads of extra stuff thats out of date soon after. Actually, dont bring Mordheim back, they will just milk it to death.
In a way I don't want them to do a new Mordheim. I'm sure they'll screw it up. Or change the tone or look or feel to something that's more akin to Aos. Which would be just awful. Keep Mordheim free. It's alive and well as is.
Nobody wants AOS Mordheim, because Mordheim is literally an Old World setting
You need a tonne of terrain for Mordheim maybe that's why they're trialling MDF in the new Kill team box.
I was just thinking this, MDF terrain would be a nice upgrade over the old cardboard but still has a lot of the same spirit to it
That’s why most of us who play own 3D printers
Part of Mordehim’s strength is that it is now a community led game, open to all types of miniatures. GW claiming the IP back would certainly cause an influx of new players but on the other hand it would potentially damage the current community, which is awesome.
I’d like to see Warcry’s next location move to be in a city. The campaign rules are pretty solid and could perhaps scratch the itch of a more recognizable location. Could use the Cursed City setting or something similar.
I think vermintide would work nicely
Yep there’s a mordheim video game and it’s not bad. Abandoned though sadly.
New to Mordheim and agree with the general sentiment that GW don’t need to do anything. It is fine.
I haven’t played since Beastgrave but I like that Underworlds exists. They really do a good job with the models and the game itself is one of their better. A lot of the changes they made for this edition are for long term viability so the intent seems to try to keep it alive.
There is so much fun and potential to use non-GW minis in Mordheim probably has something to do with it. But also the small amount of model needed to play. The money isn’t there to get them interested I think. I’m happy with it, who needs a new edition, the OG is fine as it is and freely available.
As a huge Mordhiem fan, I am fine with them never touching it, specialist studio is really hit and miss for my taste. Honestly I think an old world based warhammer quest is a better bet ...
Specialist nailed TOW aside from a few adjustments that need to be made, and they would nail Mordheim.
@@Stonehorn I have heard other views not tried it myself. Personally I think Mordhiem would be hard to recapture, well certainly not to my taste.
Lack of Mordheim fits into my theory on GW strategy. Mordheim is too volatile. It's very popular, but does that translate into sales? How many sales? Cult favorites are hard to gauge. Make too much; lose money. Make too little; fans angry. The safe move : do nothing. GW tends towards : Don't make what your customers want, tell them what they want.
They should release Mordheim as made to order. Almost like their own version of a Kickstarter. Reduces the risk massively on GeeDubs
I mean, it couldn’t do worse than Underworlds or Legion Imperialis.
GW would screw it up. Just like most the stuff they've been producing lately.
Our group plays the original game.
I bought most of it, (minis, supplements, etc.) In 99.
I hope they leave it alone.
Nobody has any faith in GW doing a good job.
@@fredcrist7045it doesn't impact you if they release a new Mordheim
The people who play mordheim don’t want GW to touch it. We are happy keeping it free and model agnostic.
Even a new mordheim does not change or invalidate the old mordhiem.
People tend to say this, but by and large Blood Bowl going back 'in house' seems to have been viewed as a generally positive development and while it might not have been exactly an overnight success, WFB seems to have been revitalised by the new edition. Necromunda is probably a matter of taste since the new game is very different from the old one, but I don't think it had really survived as a game in the way Mordheim and Blood Bowl had anyway, so there wasn't really much of a community to upset.
Legions Imperialis might be a dud as a ruleset, but new models mean new toys for the NetEpic community who just find ways to use them within their preferred edition of the game, so even what seems to have been a failed relaunch by GW has its advantages.
I'm guessing War Cry will get some kind of new season with climbable ruins. That seems like the safest route for them at the moment. Hell, the next War Cry season could have you searching ruins for warpstone in the realm of fire. Fits with the AoS 4 lore.
What i think they should do, use it like current kill team.
First release being mordheim, new plastic kits for the old warbands with rules for use in old world.
Then once they get through them, release a new campaign book in a different setting like lusteria etc.
Pretty sure there was a Mordheim video game that played a lot like the tabletop game.
It was insanely buggy, at least on my system.
Loved it still play it at times
That was in part the problem: as Goonhammer pointed out in a recent retrospective, Mordheim is not that good as a game system so using it for one-off games isn't great. The entire point of Mordheim was campaigns - and the computer game had a barebones campaign system and no multiplayer campaign system (just one-off skirmishes). You'd never develop stories of the same rival gang leveling up and playing against yours in grudge matches over time, and the starting selection of warbands was also very small.
If GW took Mordheim back in-house I suspect they'd do what they did with Necromunda and make it a game better-suited to one-off games, with a lot more unique warband specialists and gear you can hire at the start. That cost me any interest in new Necromunda, as I liked the idea of a Wild West of identikit gangs of low-grade thugs who developed their own skills, special equipment and stories organically through a campaign rather than the current Kill Team-like set of specialists each backed by well-funded houses and other patrons.
I do think Mordheim is better-suited to that sort of thing as it had a much more diverse set of warbands initially, but its popularity rested heavily on the campaign system and the understated genius of the henchmen/heroes distinction, as well as campaign mechanics that perhaps made more sense seen as roleplaying than as practical game systems.
As a mordheim player i hope that gw forgets it even exists
This!
I would like to get into this game. 😊
always funny to see gatekeepers like this in the comments. if gw releases a new mordheim you can still 3d print shit, play the first edition with your friends. gw should release a new mordheim like they did for necromunda. new necromunda is the best game theyve ever made.
@@GabCampbell can you tell me more about the new necrumanda?
@@GabCampbellso you didn't ever know what gatekeeper means.
Most of GW's customers - some 80% - do not play the games, we just buy the models to paint, collect. This was revealed in Business Insider iirc when a journalist asked. Plus it's obvious.
Underworld and Warcry exist purely to create much more interesting miniatures for people to "buy to paint" the game was just a rational ploy to stimulate those sales. GW are increasingly competing with companies that whilst the game is not played - say Malifaux - they are making high-standard plastics that look cool and attract people. This is the logic behind those two games. Instead of buying that team of really cool looking killer clowns or batman models or whatever, they want you to drop the £20 on a GW product where ever model is likewise a character in its own right.
Mordheim like Necormunda would require significant effort and would be in competition with other games more so than the models as well as GW's own products.
Warhammer Quest 1995, 30 year anniversary next year. Watch out for it!
We didn't get Space Hulk back for its 30th anniversary in 2019, or its 35th this year. Though WHQ is an officially still supported brand and it's been long enough since Cursed City that a new game is probably due.
Mordheim doesnt need GW to exist, and Mordheim players do not need GW. It best that they dont bother.
We can go buy whatever models we want to play a game whose rules are available for free online.
This!
How can it be garbage time if its not made of garbage? I'm of the mind that - echoing many of the other commenters - I'm cool if they just don't touch it. As others pointed out, Mordheim lives in the community, without "support". I don't need a suit from Nottingham trying to harsh my mellow with 14 books.
Another well spent garbage time
I would be so into a well done xcom style tactics game in any universe, be it 40k, or fantasy
Small scale skirmish games would translate very well to that medium, and I fell like it is a decent sized genre at this point, so long as it is well done you would get the knock on effect of drawing new customers into the IP and selling to fans of the IP that already exist
The HBS battletech game got me into tabletop battletech, I had fond memories of the mechwarrior games as a kid but honestly didn’t even realize then it was part of a larger IP
We have a video game, y’all should try it
17:03 Mordheim: City of the Damned is from 2015 and was very buggy on release.
They did make a Mordheim vidoe called City of the Damned. I liked it when I was younger, but it was just okay. I had wanted it to be top down more tactics focused like an RPG, but it ended up as a 3rd person turn based game. It was a bit odd.
imo they should wait til old world gets a 2nd edition, make sure its a stable staple and then introduce it as the skirmish version of old world. honestly ive bought so many kill teams, warcry warbands and underworlds packs, never played a single game of any of those things. im buying the models for aos and 40k. i get the impression kill team actually has a decent amount of players. does warcry and underworlds tho? i dunno. i think mordhiem would work as a game and work as a feeder for interesting models over to old world.
Does that game work on the playstion?
I literally almost bought a Nethermaze pack last night to make a start of Witch Hunters at my FLGS
Hexbane's Hunters seem to have been very much designed for people who want alternative models for Mordheim's most popular warband.
They need to bring back the 3rd ed winds of magic cards for Old World 2nd Ed.
Garbage time for the win!
Mordheim doesn’t need GW it can still be played perfectly fine
I am hoping that the return of the Old World will make a return of a new version of the 1995 Warhammer Quest more likely.
20min mark is always where the quality is. If your goal is to print and sell as much plastic as this year you need 2 to 4 big releases right? Horus Heresy, Warcry, and X and possibly y. Personally I think gw should go for the Ringo Star of old games.. Man-o-War.
I'd most like an AoS edition of Warmaster, but I can't see it happening. There's no point revisiting the original for GW, as there are huge numbers of third party companies supporting it.
I do wonder whether there may also be rights issues. GW tried to put a brave face on using a less popular edition of Epic as the basis for Legions Imperialis, but at the end of the day all the staff behind Epic 40k and Warmaster moved to Warlord and those two rulesets under different names are basically the entire output of Warlord Games as a company. As ferocious as GW is at protecting its IP, I doubt they had the foresight to extend that to registering specific game mechanics. It may be that they simply don't have the rights to use the Epic 40,000, Epic Armageddon or Warmaster rulesets.
Even GW is surely not so out of touch that they imagine Space Marine would sell better than Epic Armageddon because it did 20-30 years ago - everything from Warlord's success to the Epic community favouring the later editions would have warned them that the older ruleset hasn't aged well, so there must be some other reason they rereleased that.
@@philipbowles5397 you cannot copywrite game mechanics, so i doubt its a legal issue. I tend to think what comes out of the specialist studio is more a reflection of the personal preferences of the designer. From the corporations POV the rules are not that important, as neat minis, IP and nostalgia are the product with the rules being a marketing component. Yes better rules if we can but its ok if they are average. I never played Epic so i cannot judge, i have played Bolt Action and own a copy of Black Powder. Personally, i agree that they would be better off looking at some of these older games, Man-o-War, Warmaster to the more flexible setting of AOS but I doubt they will. Firstly because Nostalgia is part of the sale. Dreadfleet flopped partly due to timing but partly because it was not Man-o-War which is what the geriatrics wanted. Secondly AOS is not that strong an IP. It does not have as much cultural cut through as the old world, mostly due to its age. If i were GW I would be actively trying to build the AOS IP exposure through videogames, boardgames etc.
@@EarlofChutney I don't know if Dreadfleet flopped - it was always a one-off board game release, it wasn't planned as a specialist game. It's the sort of thing that could have sustained expansions, certainly, but I don't know if that was ever planned had it been more successful.
Both the Warhammer World and 40k had more cultural capital by the end of their first decade than AoS does, and at that time only the earliest computer games were coming out (and, notoriously, GW dropped the ball in not permitting Blizzard to use the Warhammer IP for their new Warcraft game).
I'm not sure why it's had so much trouble getting traction - the lack of successful computer games can't help, but both 40k and WFB sold those games on the strength of the IP in the first place. Total War fans were asking for a Warhammer version for years before it happened, so fan interest in the setting put it on CA's radar (also, they had the advantage that Creative Assembly was British, as the WFB IP in particular was always best-known in the UK). It might be as simple as the time it was released into - 40k is so synonymous with GW that a lot of people are unaware of 'other Warhammers', which obviously wasn't the case when the others emerged.
@@philipbowles5397 A good point on IP before video games. Warcraft and Starcraft were probably the biggest boat GW ever missed. I call Dreadfleet a flop as it was (at least in the areas of the internet i circled in) considered a flop at the time, even for a one off boardgame release. Obviously, i am not privy to GWs sales figures but it was regarded as a failure by many. Perhaps Lords of War Games and Hobbies have a better idea/memory of this.
Interesting topic for sure!
Leaving Mordheim alone is perfect.
Heresy 2.0 is a great example of "it wasn't broken and you tried to fix it".
If they can just leave the old stuff alone that would be great.
I am grateful they don't touch something like Warmaster.
I never skip a LoWGaH vid
Bless
I just bought a bunch of terrain stl files for mordheim. Funny you're talking about it today.
Mordeheim: City of the Damed (2015) and Mordheim: Warband Skirmish (2017, for mobile) were both video games based off Mordheim, and were fairly successful.
I think the current success of Mordheim is in part due to the openness of it being a fan supported game. While not quite as organized as Warmaster Revolution with rules overview, it is still very active. I will allow that some changes need to be addressed concerning weapons and perhaps armor which a new edition may bring into line.
I am not confident could put new minis as customizable as they were in 1998, and customization is a key factor in a warband. Nor do I think they could produce terrain on par with what is currently available on the 3rd party market. But most importantly, I don't think GW could capture the grimdark aesthetic of Mordheim.
Next year SHOULD have a new edition of Warcry.
Looking at the current Skaven nuking cities storyline they could make the new edition of Warcry an urban setting in tainted ruins...
That's exactly what the new Underworlds setting is - people were speculating that, indeed, Embergard would be the next Warcry setting. But whether or not Warcry will get a new edition at all seems up in the air.
The city of Shadespire would have potential for an AOS skirmish setting like Warcry. Beyond a couple of pages here and there it was never really developped.
I think that waiting for Old World to be more fully released makes sense. Many miniatures, especially from the Empire range, port over directly into Mordheim. They could keep the old mordheim rules and put the new Mordheim in a different city in the same timeline as the Old World.
A melding of a new old world warhammer skirmish and mordheim. Allowing you to have campaigns across the old world not just in a single city. Allows for selling of different terrain and lots of different warbands.
The Empire in Flames (and Lustria and Khemri) rules for Mordheim did exactly that, and are probably part of the reason the game lasted past the end of official support.
The rumor is that the guy who runs the special design studio hates Mordhiem.
There was a Mordheim video game released in 2015, played it for hundreds of hours 😆
I think Necromunda is the business model for Mordheim
Just a friendly nudge... there is a Mordheim video game :)
I don’t really want or need Mordheim to come back, I think they would be unable to release it without fiddling with it too much. What both players who played it on release and players who were not alive yet enjoy is the wild swings, the narrative campaign rules, and the playing of course. There’s already a more “flat” and balanced game with Warcry. Don’t think a company that releases articles named “Meta Watch” should try to do a game like Mordheim. :)
You know what, give me Mordheim 2: Electric Boogaloo as a co-op/solo game and I’ll pick up a box.
Hopefully they actually release the expansions this time….
Give me a new edition of Battlefleet Gothic first!
Seconded.
Mostly because you can play mordheim using a myriad of different models from a myriad of different companies.
BFG never really enjoyed its potential in model production, since plastic models are 2 cruiser kits and everything else in metal.
But with the tech they have now, they could nearly make 1 or 2 largish sprues for each faction and it would be enough to cover their entire range for that faction as well as all the options to build them.
I'm actually making a Mordheim warband, from old war kits, after coming in from Age of Sigmar/40k. I have no nostalgia for it, but what I want is to be part of the scene kit bashing and scratch building Mordheim stuff. I'm definitely for reprinting the rulebook, but otherwise I'd be very pleased they leave it completely as is. I definitely would be a lot less interested if there was a "correct" set of models, or "correct" scenery and layout. The GW orthodoxy can be very strong
Good on you. The kitbashing side of the hobby used to be far more apparent in GW games including 40k to really make them your guys but the advent of rigid gear for characters really. A librarian with a jump pack was an easy conversion but a librarian on a bike? Not only shows off some skill but is very characterful for a white scars or ravenwing force!
there is a mordheim city of the damned video game that is exactly like the necromunda game. turn based overhead combat. made by rogue factor games. they had a few expansions with it. kinda buggy at times being a small studio but it is enjoyable.
I can always listen to people speculate about Mordheim. That's how much I love it! I was watching a video just this morning where Summon Lesser Maker had molds of the old Mordheim windows so that he could make more. I thought to myself, look at the ingenuity and effort this community will go to so that they can recreate this game. Why GW hasn't taken advantage of that, I really don't know, and I don't mean that as an insult to GW. I just can't fathom it. They must have their reasons.
If they made anything new for Mordheim I hope they'd lean into the character over detail. Those old Mordheim minis had soooo much character, and AoS minis have so much detail - skulls and jewels and trinkets galore to paint, but that wouldn't feel like Mordheim. The simplicity of the old man necromancer holding up his skull and sword, or the elf holding his cloak around him. Lightning in a bottle, man.
I agree a one and done sort of deal could work with Mordheim. All of their on-going games always have that competitive, crunchy game rules slant. Mordheim would have to lean so hard into the roleplay, narrative focus for it to work, I think. Something they don't do very much of these days.
Also, I think right about the time that they announced the timeline of Old World, which is set right about the same time as Mordheim, I think? It got everyone speculating, and a GW fellow was asked about that, and he said, "We have no plans for Mordheim." Just a hard no. Makes me think it's unlikely, unfortunately, considering GW tends to plan stuff out pretty far in advance, don't they?
Anyway, appreciate the video and I always enjoy Mordheim talk.
The timeline for Old World is post-Mordheim by about 200 years.
@@philipbowles5397 My bad!
There is a mordheim game on steam. Personally... absolutely love it.
I still play that. Great game.
I used to buy underworlds all the time… for the models. Who plays the game?
There's a Mordheim video game, but it's probably best forgotten... It was in that period a few years when Games Workshop were giving every tiny unproven developer under the sun a licence.
Sadly that was also the time they gave out the Underworlds licence for a computer game. I really hope they revisit the Underworlds Online concept with a developer capable of delivering a usable UI, stable multiplayer, and reasonably timely content (or, if limited to one of the three, stable multiplayer - that game being all but unplayable when not vs AI must have done a lot to harm it).
Did gw say 2025 was the year of chaos? Maybe that could be the year.
No, they said 2024 was. They were celebrating the year of Chaos headlined by Skaven (but with significant releases for Chaos Space Marines, Warriors of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness and Chaos Dwarfs in four different rulesets) coming to a close, not announcing a coming Year of Chaos.
would love for a new modheim since the old rules are so mediocre compared to new necromunda
My friends and I have regularly played Mordheim since its release. It’s the best skirmish game they’ve ever made. It’s still perfectly playable in its original form, and models are now readily available.
I made it to garbage time!
Believe awhile ago rumor was warcry second edition was going to push more towards campaign play like Mordheim. With Warcry supposed to be next year, I could see them using it to feel out people's interest for it.
Day 4 of asking for a hex based apology.
Jokes aside though, you were obviously right when you were saying Underworlds had gone quiet for months and may have died. I believe they had 2 more warbands ready to come, but seeing the success of Nemesis, decided to repurpose them on a new Edition which has been designed with Nemesis in mind.
But there's just some things as someone who's main game system is Underworlds that I'd like to point out. Here are some pros of the system that I enjoy.
- Very small model count, I like to paint variety and this lets me paint 4-5 models and move on. I never finish armies.
- Tight rule set, no inaccuracies with measuring makes for a more competitive game if you want it
- Travelling to events, you can fit everything into the box it comes in comfortably, which means can travel with it a small backpack
- Nemesis, perfect blend of deck building without needing to own every card lets people enter the hobby easier.
- Games are comfortably played within 1 hour. This also means you suffer less when it becomes obvious you can't win.
- The game does remain the cheapest to buy in. One core box is all you need to play, and expansions are still only £25 for models or £15 for decks. Only Kill Team and Warcry can compete on price.
In the UK scene, Underworlds is definitely steadily growing due to the above. There has become a sort of circuit of events now between the major cities in the midlands/north and then another one in the south. Most events can be travelled to in the morning and are one day events since each game lasts for 1 hour.
There are many key players in the Underworld scene that work for GW and have sway on their decisions. Its likely they have pushed to keep the game too, knowing the above pros very well.
There are, of course, some cons of the game. But the new edition appears to be trying to fix them.
- Availability of older warbands, fixed by having all legal warbands available.
- Feels bad defensive play (longboarding) fixed by the one board system.
- Too many cards to learn, fixed by removing faction cards and keeping a smaller pool by using universal rivals decks only.
- Terrible card wording which is confusing and annoying to read, fixed on the new decks, they read much better
The veteran players aren't all sold on the new edition as it does seem to be a bit watered down, but I remain optimistic and hope it does do well.
Hope my perspective at least explains a little bit of what's going on inside the system :)
Best part is you can teach someone to play in 30mins and you can play it in mtg or board game stores.
Better to use a name name for an old IP, bringing it under the WH banner for simplicity of shopping sake while also inundating Mordheim from THE MESSAGE.
The old kits were like building legos; the new ones are like Ikea furniture. The models look great but building it is just a chore now, instead of something that was fun all by itself.
I hadn't thought about Mordheim as following the Old World template either but that just makes a ton of sense and would be very smart. Now we just need to figure out why they're keeping Underworlds on life support, because that one still stumps me.
Highly debatable… try building a goblin hewer and we’ll talk…
@@Tulkash01 I just finished building an Anvil of Doom and it sucked, but that's not what I was talking about. Build a new assault intercessors with jump packs unit, and then build a classic assault marines unit, and tell me which was fun and which felt like a job you just had to get through to get to the fun part.
I mean the metal kits were always difficult (I got an MTO Orc shaman on wyvern and wow that was not fun to get built) but really here I'm talking about the plastics ... the thing about their big metal kits is they don't have any anymore, outside of TOW MTO.
I don't see them as keeping Underworlds on life support - I seem them as relaunching it because it failed the first time, but it still has enough potential to work as the marketing tool GW needs it to be that it makes more sense to make a more 'user-friendly' game that isn't sabotaged by its own marketing than to make something all-new to fill that role.
Mordheim would definitely do better than Underworlds but that’s an excessively low bar.
The issue with a pure nostalgia game like Mordheim is a lot of the people who actually play have been outside the GW ecosystem for so long, much like Bloodbowl, and they won’t have anywhere near the same spending habits as the average GW buyer.
Cursed City was one of the worst dungeon crawlers I’ve played, GW can’t just produce boxed games when there are dozens of way better games out there.
The new Edition of Underworlds feels like it has a lot of parallels to x-wing 2.0.
All your cards etc are scrapped.
You can use your old models, but..
If you want physical cards for existing warbands you can buy the new versions, etc
I can’t see this reinvigorating the game.
There won't be physical cards for the warbands beyond fighter and warscroll cards - which are easy enough to print once the rules are made available. They evidently either had production issues keeping the old cards in stock or it was uneconomical, so this lets them keep everything needed to play the game in stock.
This is a relaunch - it's not aimed at people who played the existing edition particularly, since Underworlds didn't really hit the apparently intended audience. It's a standalone board game that people can buy whichever expansion content they want for, similar to the Fantasy Flight Living Card Game model or board games like Uncharted.
GW players will play it and completists like me will collect all the content, but I think the main intended market is people at board game clubs and nights who are already familiar with that marketing model and used to buying only what they want to improve their experience. It's a game first and foremost for people who don't play GW games.
Garbage Gang!
I think you guys are making the common mistake of 'my local meta' is the industry meta... Underworlds probably bottomed out 3 years ago but rebounded when they switched to rivals deck support. There's a healthy Underworlds scene around NYC and the game in the UK is seeing very solid turnout for their events. 'no one has played it in years' is local to you.. As a profit driven entity, they'd drop it if it made them zero money.. Maybe that happens at some point (almost definitely as all the niche games die).. But don't mistake your locality for the industry
I mean the 'local meta' we are referring to is still a region with like 10 million people. I think you your point is still fair but we didn't drum up our take out of some tiny dataset regarding our shop alone.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 and for a billion dollar company with a global audience that's still small in terms of their whole 'market' .. NYC metro area is probably quadruple that in numbers and I wouldn't call the healthy Underworlds scene here representative of the whole.. Just saying local meta doesn't tell the tale of the smaller games..now 40k and kill team are probably big sellers in both places but secondary games might vary wildly
Current GW developers do not have the capacity to upgrade Mordheim. It would just be a cannibalism of ideas for a money grab.
God bless you too
One of the best things about Mordheim is that it's not currently supported. People getting into and putting effort into playing unsupported games seem to have a less competitive ethos.
GOBBLESS GARBAGE TIME 🫡
Mordheim is a very old game, so it would never be reproduced exactly, it would be a 'reboot'. But GW is very different now to what it was in 1999, and the community is different too. It would make more sense to set it in the modern Warhammer, so it fits into the rest of the range. But isn't that what Warcry was when it was launched? A modern, 'low intensity', Warhammer skirmish game between rival gangs in a specific setting and with a distinctly dark tone. That game went through a different product development journey than Necromunda, so I assume it wasn't as successful, instead it morphed into more of a general Warhammer skirmish game. I have to assume that's because that's what the market wanted. I personally don't think nostalgia is a big factor, more important is the very strong (and slightly peculiar) art direction that game had, as well as the customization opportunities. Could GW reproduce that today? I'm not sure, they have moved away from both those things and it might be difficult to reproduce them.
My bet: Warhammer Quest: Mordheim
I think underworlds is something more prevelant in the UK and possibly because it's playable in store and acts as a loss lead for AoS in getting people into the hobby
Do you think they will ever bring back Aeronautica, or give us Epic 41,000?
The aeronautica experiment failed spectacularly. A little too niche i think.
Epic on the other hand...
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 also seems to be failing spectacularly and is probably only being supported because they're making all these models in full-scale Heresy and can digitally shrink the moulds. But it does at least have an audience of existing NetEpic players who can repurpose the new models, so GW may not care if no one plays the game 'as intended'. Given that those same players only need so many aircraft there's not a lot of opportunity for extra Aeronautica sales that way.
I do wish they'd stuck with Aeronautica long enough to make Archaeopters, though, especially with the new Mechanicum releases.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 agreed with the niche, and I think they tried to do a firehose on Star Wars x wing, which LI is effectively doing for the likes of drop zone commander. But regardless of that, if they did an updated Epic, I don't think that would be good for Legions. Legions is Space Marine, but Epic is beloved by a lot of folks. I'd drop LI for it without a thought.
What I don't get is GW loves their symmetry. SciFi and fantasy mainline with 40k and AoS, SciFi and fantasy historicals with Heresy and Old World, tight skirmish with Kill Team and Warcry, crunchy-wonky skirmish with Necromunda and.. Mordheim... obvi should be Mordheim. Sorry warhammer underpants.
There's also no epic scale fantasy in the style of Legions Imperialis and there's nothing quite like Underworlds or Bloodbowl in current 40k. So it's not total symmetry.
Mordhiem has no new edition.....Mordhiem needs no new edition....
Why would Mordheim be anywhere? Not every GW game comes back. GW seems to make a lot of decisions based on tie-in games: Total War and computer Blood Bowl were successful so GW brought those games back 'in house'. Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 and Mordheim both failed so badly that they were dropped without getting DLC. It wouldn't surprise me if they'd eyed both for a relaunch but backtracked with those failures. The commercial uptake of Necromunda and Legions Impetialis is hardly likely to persuade GW to support more games just as a sop to nostalgia.
Underworlds has nothing to do with whether Mordheim will come back in future - the current GW equivalent to Mordheim is Warcry, whose future is uncertain as no further support has been announced or hinted at
I suspect that GW is belatedly learning that it needs each of its games to serve a specific marketing purpose - I doubt they'd have greenlit a return to Necromunda now if it wasn't already a supported game. I think they want Underworlds to provide GW visibility to board gamers and school groups where other Warhammer products won't usually be played. That failed the first time, but the game is good and suitable for that purpose - GW just dropped the ball on the marketing. So a relaunch makes sense.
If it works, it will also grow visibility for Age of Sigmar as an IP, which GW desperately needs. The game is successful, but mostly among people who came from other Warhammer games. As an IP it remains all but unknown more widely, and has never had a successful tie-in computer game. GW now makes a lot of money from the IP, but that's nearly all from 40k. Tying themselves so strongly to one IP is a bad idea because fashions change, and AoS doesn't have the visibility the Warhammer World does even now. That may also be a justification for Necronunda -no one plays or buys it, but it keeps alive a semi-separate IP which, like Blood Bowl, exists as a sort of parallel universe to the core settings.
TBH, I don't really understand people saying Mordheim should come back or even say it's the best game ever. I'm still playing Mordheim nowadays, but in no way it is a game made with modern game design in mind (especially GW's obsession for balance). Besides, Warcry already exists, and it is litterally inspired from Mordheim but with more balance / less "unfun" mechanics. I think people saying it will come back just fundamentally don't understand it is not fitting in GW's current business.
They need to leave mordhiem alone. It’s fine as is.
Same with warmaster. They better not mess with it.
So much of the Mordheim energy comes from weird kitbashers like Miscast. What value is there in having them take a dump on your new edition?
They manage to navigate the waters of 'beloved discontinued, fan-supported game' with Blood Bowl seemingly okay.
@@darnon2031 The Blood Bowl video game being good really helped. And the Mordheim influencers literally giving recast tutorials must give them pause. Why put your vitals into the nest?
Absolutely do not want the current creatively bankrupt GW to touch Mordheim. The game is fine as-is and doesn't need a "new and improved" ruleset. All the minis can be gotten from other sets or stolen from bits and pieces that already exist. While I would love the idea of the old sets getting a re-release, you know that's not what would happen.
I mean look at how they milk the dead cow of Underworlds.
Im pretty sure the new underworlds ruined all the cool art on the cards and is now just pictures of minis.....sucks
isnt ? the
Warhammer Quest: Cursed City
new Mordheim ?????????
I only think Underworld's is continuing out of a contractual obligation at this point. It was basically dead and the cards are so expensive to make. The money isn't there for actual Underworlds; 19/20 sales of Underworlds don't get used in Underworlds. Honestly feels like 79/80 moreso only because the sculpts go so hard. I have 7 Underworlds teams; all of the Gloomspite, Stormcoven, Skeletons, City Rivals box and all of the cards got recycled basically day 1. It's not a waste at all because I wasn't going to ever use them and I am happy to get those minis anyways. It would be cool if they could give us these awesome themed smaller sprues without sacrificing a bunch of trees and making a bunch of chinese color printing waste.
Well they make the minis without cards after a month or so that was the main issue of the game you could buy the old warbands but not the cards.
underworlds is the best gw game
Quite possibly. But it often doesn't matter unfortunately lol
I like the minis but don't play the game. I would rather see a new Warhammer Quest that uses these minis.
I hope they stay away from Mordheim forver. It's fine just the way it is.
This channel does not have a lot to do with the hobby, it's store owners talking about and finding "interesting" whatever sells. a few weeks ago, Old World was dead according to these guys. Then they sold a few boxes or something and now "there might be something". You obviously don't care about any real game content and as store owners that's ok since you have to make a living but don't frame the content as hobby content. And obviously, there is a Mortheim video game for many years.
How a game sells has nothing to do with the hobby?
I'm sorry but 20 years of hobby shop retail experience tells me you are very wrong about that mate.
And we aren't hiding what we are doing - whether you like/appreciate it is entirely up to you.
Thanks for the comment.
Okay, I’m gonna say it.
Mordheim was a mid game with a phenomenal setting and aesthetic and boring gameplay. It also lost GW a fortune when it was originally released.
The setting for AoS is just inferior to real Warhammer Fantasy
I love AoS but I wish it was its own continuity not connected to old world lore.
Mordheim is the most over hyped game ever that would 5 have this mythos if WHFB wasn't ended. The minis are meh, the rules are meh, it's overly complicated and long. Yes turbo neckbeards who love 6hr WHFB games enjoy it but literally nobody else does.
Its fine.. but this is all nostalgia. Compared to modern stuff...
Rules B, minis D, terrain C, fluff A.
It's fine..
The setting has almost a 30yr headstart and nostalgia behind it. If you look at AoS lore since just before 3d onward it's actually really good if you like HIGH fantasy.
I prefer it. Never a big fan of the WH Fantasy setting. Too on the nose with the Tolkien theme. Seemed redundant once they started doing the LOTR games. AOS is weirder and I appreciate it.
AOS lore is well ahead of where WH and 40k were in the same timeframe. I think people who have just decided they don't like it don't pay attention to it.
@@iantellam9970 I think it has its charms but pretending that pre 2000 (giving it the same age of AoS) was anything more than a derivative on Tolkien meets European folklore mashed up with late medieval actual history is bollocks.
The weakest parts of AoS lore are tied to them carrying over things from WHFB frankly. The new ideas and exploration into high fantasy are the bright spots.
Leave Mordheim alone. it is great as it is. No need to dumb it down lie GW always do now.
There is so much fun and potential to use non-GW minis in Mordheim probably has something to do with it. But also the small amount of model needed to play. The money isn’t there to get them interested I think. I’m happy with it, who needs a new edition, the OG is fine as it is and freely available.
Could say that about Necromunda, yet that came back with loads of extra stuff thats out of date soon after.
Actually, dont bring Mordheim back, they will just milk it to death.