Anglo-German Dreadnought Arms Race - Anything you can build I can build better!
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- Today we take a whistlestop tour behind the driving forces and outcome of the Anglo-German Naval Arms Race that led up to WW1.
Sources:
www.amazon.co.uk/Dreadnought-Britain-Germany-Coming-Great/dp/0099524023
www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Naval-Race-Anglo-German-1900-1914/dp/B08YRP1QPM
www.amazon.co.uk/Grand-Fleet-Warship-Development-1906-1922-ebook/dp/B00ONZQ7BY
www.amazon.co.uk/Kaisers-Battlefleet-German-Capital-1871-1918/dp/1848322291
www.amazon.co.uk/Dreadnought-Scapa-Flow-Road-1904-1914/dp/1848321627/
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Good start to the day. Thank you.
What if one of the Taffy 3 destroyers sunk the Yamato?
What if the germans got the Battlecruiser right from the beginning, so they never build Blücher and Build Von der Tann in 1907. Would this mean that all Derfflingers are Finished Pre- War. If so how would doggerbank and Jutland have gone with thr extra Battlecruisers ?
Finnish Dreadnoughts Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen. Maybe some day in the future?
If Tirpitz had not been destroyed by air attack and somehow survived the war, could there have been a future for her as a war prize? Could she have made a decent postwar vessel in a NATO fleet, perhaps a missile conversion given her size?
Fun Fact: The "Schleswig-Holstein" was not just the last german Pre-Dreadnaught to be build, but also the last german battleship in operation. She was sunk as a block ship in 1945 and later refloated by the Soviets who used her as a stationary target ship until 1966.
Very interesting tidbit
Also, she was the first battleship (or a warship in general) to fire guns during WWII, on 1 IX 1939, at 4:48 in the morning, shelling positions on Westrplatte
@@Szopen715 True, and she took part in the Battle of Jutland as well. She also served as the flagship of the german navy between 1926 and 1936.
If you count battlecruisers, SMS Goeben deserves that honor, not being scrapped until 1973.
Was the last Pre-Dreadnought to be sunk too, as she was put on the bottom in shallow water at least once.
fun fact: to finance the new fleet Germany introduced among other things a tax on sparkling wine, which somehow was kept in place throughout the generations and still exists to this day, we are still paying for the Kaiser's battleships!
And still we couldnt keep Goeben...
One tax more or less, no big deal.
Let us pay for ships which does not exist anymore, cause why not?
If we legalise and tax Weed, we might be able to finance a few new ones 😂
@@comentedonakeyboard I dont want new ones. They are ugly. I want the old ones back
@@535phobos yeah, the new ships dont look the best tbh
Drach casually ripping out everyone's heart at the end of the video.
No it surely has to be the ninjas cutting onions
Yep, it's really sad. :-/
He didn't have to hit me in the heart like that
A sailor is a sailor is a sailor - we are all brothers and comrades-in-arms, forever allied against our one true enemy: the Sea herself.
We may be called on to fight against each other, but when the battle is decided and guns silenced, the nets and boats go out and we rescue our brethren from the Sea's remorseless grip.
You say he was tearing hearts out. I saluted those glorious men, all. I am proud of all those who set sail, and whilst things may be tense from time to time, their great-grand children have kept the spirit alive. Long live the Fleet!
"Three cheers for the Royal Navy!"
"Three cheers for the German Navy!"
*Statements like these make war a tragic affair, especially in hindsight.* 😞
On an emotional level, Ive always hated WW1
But now I despise it... Its just so sad
@@skeletonwguitar4383 A pointless loss of life for an entire generation of young man.
@@virgil6873 I've never understood this mentality. Those men did not consider it pointless. They joined and served with honor and pride, and the same generation fought or otherwise supported WW2.
Don't demean their sacrifices for King, God, Country, Honour or Unit that they considered worth dying for by calling it pointless and treating them as foolish children who knew no better.
If anything the real tragedy is a generation of people who hold so little of value except their own lives that sacrifice on that scale is entirely beyond their understanding.
@@Gotterdammerung05 What a silly mentality! No, it was a completely pointless waste of men and material, and glorifying it is little more than a sick mockery.
@@Physwe he says not knowing a single thing worth selling his own life for. There are many men from that generation who did not consider it a waste. C.S Lewis fought in the trenches and lost his best friend there, he did not spend his latter days crying and bitching. Instead he routinely spoke against pacifism.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep,
You are not those men, yet you presume to pass judgement on what they held value to. What arrogance.
You want to talk about mockery? How about spending 364 days a year lambasting those men for being evil, racist, homophobic imperialist monsters who ruined our world for their warmongering greed, and then spending 1 day a year standing around "honoring their sacrifices" by spitting on their sacrifice and calling them foolish children who died "pointlessly". That's a mockery. Those men died willingly for their kings, empires, nations and to call it pointless is to mock them.
I have never wanted to see a Musical about the Anglo-German naval arms race… until now. Admiral Fisher and the Kaiser singing “Anything You Can Do, I can do Better” would be amusing.
We need this!
Alles du machst, mache ich besser,
Die Männer, die Schiffen, Kanonen und Kesseln
Im glad somebody thinks Drachinifel is funny.
Yeah, their fireworks were so much better!!!
Admiral Tirpitz's Beard would be truly worthy of a musical villan
I think Gilbert and Sullivan already touched on this… (HMS Pinafore…)
The pace of technology starting in the industrial revolution was really quite staggering. Imagine a civil war vet who fought while in his early 20s or late teens; maybe even served on a sailing frigate or a river ironclad monitor. By by his early 70s there were Dreadnaughts with turbine engines that used extreme advances in metallurgy for the blades. Now the largest warships are flying at 23, 24, 25 knots and are many times larger than the largest ship of your youth. I know you could pick any technology over that period and be amazed at it's progress or even invention. But as this is about Dreadnaughts I can't help but marvel at the progression of warships, and ships in general.
Cheers to all while I down another measure of my Rum Ration!
I really want to say "Yar!!!" now.
Some of them that grew up in the late 19th century and lived to their 100s saw cars, electricity, planes, two world wars, nuclear energy and first man to the moon!
My grandfather was born before the first powered flight, man had landed on the moon and transoceanic passenger liners were history before he turned 70.
Sometimes if you stop and think you catch yourself thinking that a young person could have been watching two men at Kitty Hawk and live long enough to watch two men at Tranquility Base. As far as technology goes that is one giant leap for mankind.
Another thought for you. The Battle of Trafalgar, one of the greatest battles of the age of sail, took place after the first steam powered boat had sailed on a canal in Scotland. In fact there was a proposal to use steam powered ships to tow fireships to attack the Franco-Spanish fleet before Nelson's action. Which, if successful, could have resulted in the Battle of Trafalgar never having taken place.
Nothing motivates men to improve like the need to off their neighbor as quickly and efficiently as possible, sadly.
The example that gets me is this: The USS Constellation was the last sail-only warship of the US navy. It was launched 1854. The USS Nautilus, the first nuclear powered ship, was launched 1955. 101 years between sails and nuclear power.
Honestly it makes a lot of 50's/60's sci fi make sense. "Well in the last hundred years we've gone from sailing ships to nuclear powered ships, we'll totally have a moon base by 2001."
"Congress was doling out dollars to the US Navy like an anti-social miser stuck in an orphanage" I laughed so hard I almost pulled a muscle! Brilliant!
Yes 👍 LMAO 😂
This American very much approves of this description.
So does this American. A classic Drachism to always remember! 😂
Have another American agreement
yeah, that line was subtle but brilliantly hilarious.
British Shipbuilding after 1906: *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* *Dreadnought Constructed* .
Germany: What have I Done
Respont to last: "You ignored Bismarcks plan to ally with Britain."
Iron curtain destroyed.
Nuclear launch detected.
Germany:
Otto Von Bismarck: TF HAVE YOU DONE, I LEFT JUST ONE DAY! ONE DAY!
British Dreadnought construction was the fastest capital ship production in History, the only other that came close was the construction of the Essex class, and it was also easier to build them
The brits after WW1: *depressed drinking* I'll never do this again *signs Washington treaty*
The financial aspect of the race is interesting too. Britain raised the tax on income to pay for the new fleet, while the Reichstag refused to give the Kaiser such direct taxes. Instead the introduced in 1902 a tax on sparkling wine and certain other alcoholic brewages, called "Schaumweinsteuer". We still pay that tax today, but have no navy to match the amount of money.
There was even more to it on the British side. Lloyd George, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was gleeful to use the landed conservative support for naval expansion as a reason to increase taxes, such as death duties, that would particularly affect the same landed gentry that bitterly opposed his tax increases and social spending. Eventually it was a contributing factor in the House of Lords losing it's veto power over House of Commons bills. The landed gentry, which he nominally called "the Dukes", fought him so bitterly that Lloyd George compared them to the dreadnought ships themselves, stating something like "A fully loaded Duke fights as hard as a dreadnought, but costs twice as much!".
Kind of amazing that "temporary" taxes never go away!
@@mahbriggs "Temporary" government measures are some of the most permanent things in the world.
Yes but what few people realize is what they get instead.
I’m sure that in Germany that tax functions like a sin tax in other nations. Helping to offset the increased healthcare costs from excessive alcohol intake.
Same with income taxes. Income taxes were used to pay for war, but after they were used by and large to set up social services that were previously unheard of or grossly underfunded. Like healthcare, government pensions, welfare, education, etc etc etc.
And.. contrary to popular belief, taxes seldom disappear. They find their way back into the economy from public employees as well as public contracts tendered to private companies. If you want to see money disappear.. try corporate tax cuts and corporate welfare. Great for executive bonuses and shareholder dividends that get locked away in offshore accounts while the little that gets spend mostly generates employment in places like Bangladesh.
@@Bartonovich52
I see you belong to the Soviet school of economics.
The decision to challenge the British at sea was according to me the pivotal reason and final nail in the coffin for the possibility of any Anglo-German alliance against the French. Bismarck would have been pissed.
A move that makes Barborossa look almost reasonable and well thought out in comparison
@@silverhost9782 Based on the recent performance of the Red Army in the Winter war, Stalin's purges wiping out the competent leadership and the experience of the German empire in the First World war against the Russians, a much more powerful Wehrmacht overpowering a disorganized Red Army would have been the common wisdom.
Bismarck had a plan, he always had a plan. And these people did just about everything they could NOT to follow that plan. sm
@@mattwoodard2535 And they did not even keep "the right wing strong" which would have had them dancing in Paris in 1914.
@UNSCForwardontodawn That is absolutely true but here I'm telling about the mentality Hitler and other members of the German high command had. Rudimentary logistics issues were ignored.
Germany: Tries to be a relevant sea power
Britain: "And I took that personally"
I'm imagining the Michael Jordan "Last Dance" meme now.
It's hard not to take it personally when someone builds one of the largest and most powerful navies in the world specifically to threaten you. And for no other purpose.
@@davidchambers8697 More like, how do I defend what little territory I have against the worlds largest and most powerful empire since the Spanish, when I'm mostly a land power
@@johnathanblackwell9960 What was the German Navy meant to defend from Britain, exactly? They didn't need a Navy to defend against a British invasion, as the German Army was 10-20 times stronger than the British one. Coastal cities? Hamburg was the only important one, and it is dozens of miles up the river Elbe.
Or was the Navy meant to defend German shipping and overseas colonies? When war broke out, they didn't even try to.
The High Seas Fleet wasn't meant to defend against anything. As this video explicitly pointed out, the purpose of the Risk Fleet was to threaten the one remaining uncommitted major power in Europe. And it ran right into the welcoming arms of Germany's enemies.
Thatcher said: We fought them twice and they are back again ;-) She was right - all the best from Germany!
Okay so is nobody going to comment on the fact that when Drach mentions the fact Tirpitz knew there would be a period he termed "the Danger Zone" and a still from Top Gun shows up?
I had to stop the video for a second because I burst out laughing.
timestamp?
@@dunamoose3446 16:58
The end of this video gave me chills at how genuinely tragic the start of the war was
WWI was the founding tragedy of our 'modern' era.
@@jamesbugbee6812 I would disagree with that statement. WWI signalled the beginning of the end of an era, but WW2 was the founding tragedy in my opinion. Or, more specifically, the Manhattan Project coming to fruition.
WW2 marked the ending of the colonial era starting and the beginning of the atomic era.
@@himaro101 The atomic era prevented any world wars from ever happening again, and they certainly wont happen in the next 100 years. Of course, vietnam like stuff is bound to happen, but NOTHING on the scale of ww1/2. Thank nukes for not ending the world...
@@himaro101 Oh yeah; WWI was only a European suicide, other colonialists had to wait for the message to be rubbed in by WW2. And colonialism still flourishes, but under false colors.
I like these videos for their historical education, but also for the severely underrated dry humor sprinkled throughout. The little knocks on Churchill's grandstanding 😂
The best part about the humor in his videos is that the vast majority of it is completely historically accurate, most of the stuff said about Winston is not even stuff with Jack came up with those are actual words said by people at the time. (Also to be fair Churchill did deserve it)
Rum Ration this early in the morning? Yes please! Of all of Drach's "series" Rum Ration may just be my favorite.
He seems to have the most fun with it
Rum and coffee this morning? Yes please
They usually hit just after 7 eastern. Back when I was doing construction the alert from youtube was my second alarm lol
Hipper sings his lament "It Should Have Been Me!"
Tirpitz really put Germany on the highway to the danger zone
Approximate timeline to the tune of "Anything you can do"
[ 1905 ]
Britain: "Anything you can build, I can build better"
*builds Dreadnought*
[ 1906 ]
Britain: "I can build anything better than you"
*builds Bellerophons*
[ 1907 ]
Germany: "No you can't"
*builds Nassaus*
[ 1908 ]
Britain: "Yes I can"
*builds St. Vincents*
Germany: "No you can't"
*builds Helgolands"
[ 1909 ]
Britain: "Yes I can"
*builds Neptune, Colossus and Hercules*
[ 1910 ]
Germany: "No you can't"
*builds Kaisers*
Britain: "Yes I can!"
*builds Orions*
[ 1911 ]
Britain: "Yes I can!"
*builds King George Vs*
(And so on and so forth)
Awesome
So the naval arms race that led to the Battle of Jutland was driven by two admirals who wanted to avoid a war by means of deterrence?
Ssssshhhhhh... when talking about Germany we use the terms "provocation", "luxury fleet" and "risk fleet", that is what propaganda calls for. Please avoid using non-propaganda terms.
Captain Blackadder : You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.
Private Baldrick : But, this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?
Captain Blackadder : Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.
Private Baldrick : What was that, sir?
Captain Blackadder : It was bollocks.
"Blackadder Goes Forth, Goodbyeeee"
Next, let's hear about "Great Moments in Diplomacy", starting with the Naval Treaties and ending with the Sudatenland.
I recently read Robert K Massie's "Dreadnought", and can heartily recommend it as a fascinating insight into the dreadnought arms race - I'm also delighted that Boat Daddy has done this video too - thank you Sir! 😊
That book is so big that it takes longer to read than it took _Dreadnought_ to be built.
@@michaelsommers2356 it's also very useful if you need to prop up a car on a jack, or stun a burglar robbing your house 😆
Boat Daddy?! Oh my!!
@@Tuning3434 well, when it comes to story time about boats, who is the Daddy? 😎
Doing research after reading Massie's books is what led me to finding Drachinifel's channel.
I’m sure Bismarck was rolling in his grave when the Nazis built a battleship in his honour to do exactly what he thought was utterly moronic. And then he probably nearly rose from the dead in vengeance when the sister ship was named after that dilettante Tirpitz.
If it had been possible, he would have risen from his grave and beat the shit out of Hitler
Heheheheh.
I was thinking something similar.
I am sure Bismarck would laugh out loud when hearing of Brexit 😅
@@minimax9452 indeed he would.
The way you ended the episode is perfect. It shows the same humanity, emotions, and the will for friendship regardless of politics as the Christmas Truce. It is hard to understand from our modern perspective, that these young and old men, so cordial and friendly with each other, would turn against one another, ragged on by the public and the politicians within two months. That singular gunshot in the streets of Sarajevo caused these competing nations, whose leaders were not only respected their opposing colleagues, the young men who served in the armies and navies, and the royal families that saw their relationship to Queen Victoria, (in a belief it would keep them from war), become entrenched in the ideas of war and hate. That story at the end of this video is a good way to describe the Great War, friends turned foes, neighbors turned traitors, servicemen of other nations turned into demons and monsters, all because of politics...the issues weren't personal...the politics tore these relationships between the competing British and Germans apart. An excellent episode as always Drachinifel.
“What are Winston’s reasons for acting as he does in this matter? Of course, it can’t be from conviction or principle, the very idea of him having either is enough to make anyone laugh”. Churchill always was a scoundrel.
How can you dare say that of Saint Winston!!!
@@trauko1388 lol!
@@trauko1388 Saint of Scoundrels?
Oh man, that near broke me. Rofl
Guy was almost as bad as Hitler and Stalin, but “muh bulldog spirit!”
Eyes full of tears by the end just like the Von Spee Falklands video .
I study Naval history and often find it hard to see the lines, finally those sailors who cheered on both sides quite possibly were the grandson's of men who fought at Waterloo, so sad .
I've never seen a more fitting video title.
This guy has a terrific way of describing complex issues.
Drach, you say you hate politics but you're really good at explaining political situations when need be.
I like to imagine that my disdain for all politicians might give me an outside perspective :)
Germany: Wants to have a powerful navy
Admiral Fisher: *My time has come*
_loads 20 inch guns_ For Blighty!
What a weird name
To all Sabaton fans I'm calling it now, the song Dreadnought on their next album will be about this and not Jutland. Hope I'm wrong, but I'll be back come March to see if I got it right or not
"On the cold waves from the North Sea, frrrom Shore to Sea to Shore,
A silent battle rrrages, -As Fisher and Tirpitz square off:
It's Naval Dominance or war!
(Riff-)"
Possibly could be about Dreadnought herself.
It's about Jutland.
The same Schleswig-Holstein that opened WW2 in Danzig harbor.
It opened the Polish - german war.
@@minimax9452 oh you consider ww2 starting in asia? Cool
You mean Gdansk. Fixed it for you.
@@tltc191 Danzig - founded by Germans😅😎🇩🇪
@@tltc191 *Danzig
"shell magnets" - I almost spit my coffee.
This very much reminds me of the Mers El Kabir video years ago by Drach, with the English officer supposed to have his birthday cake on a French ship that at any moment could be shot to bits.
You never disappoint with your content. You deserve so much more for how much time you put into your videos. You should be teaching naval history at an ivy league school, but I thank you for sharing your knowledge with poor bastards like me.
The Ivy League has no interest in European history anymore, except as propaganda to villify Europeans.
You had some stunning photographs to accompany this episode. In particular the two of Fisher were notable.
Fun fact the dreadnaught race . also involved the german and dutch relations . For one the dutch had shipbuilding expertise , and 4 large comercial shipyards that could build dreadnaughts and other ship types. With the dutch interest in ordering 9 dreadnaughts and german companies more than willing to work with dutch shipyards and companies would provide those yards and equiment manufacturers with valuable experience . and what would be more perfect for germany to have 4 extra shipyards with 2 large drydocks to extend the capacity to build more dreadnaughs battle cruisers and or other large ships.
Germania werf , krupp and Blom&Vos all had good relations with the dutch . it could have been an interesting cooperation .
As the dreadnaught or battleships designed for the dutch would be improved kaiser class ships with 4 double turrets of 14 inch guns in superfiring position 2 more 6 inch guns , slighly less armour but decent speed. the same for the Java class cruisers , a cooperation betewen germania werf and dutch ship builders at the time they where layed down 1916 they where the most powerfull cruisers underconstruction . ( sadly they where launched after the war with great delayes due to cutting back on defense spending in the aftermath of the great war)
This video couldn't come at a better time. I have a test next week in which I have to write 200 words about WW1. I was thinking about writing about the development of the Dreadnought battleship and battlecruiser, and this will really help. Thanks Drach.
I have an army background, but I think knowledge about other domains make you more complete. So I enjoy the historic naval content on this channel.
Germany: "Britian won't fight a war that can't make it money!"
Also Germany: *Does Exactly That*
XD
And, for the first time, so did Britain.
@@jamesbugbee6812 The real irony is that Britian hoped Germany would agree to a quick peace, because Britian knew Germany couldn't actually afford to fight the war, and assumed Germany knew that too.
@@bubbasbigblast8563 Britain: Germany I assumed you had a basic intelligence. It appears I were wrong, and for making me wrong I will destroy you
US defense industry: hold our beers
I got given a book not too long ago, printed in the 80's about the history and development of battleships and then i find this channel and its totally taken me in, finally subbed and now looking forward to weeks or months of informative viewing
The end is really tragic. The navies had friendships and admiration for one another yet politics got in the way. In a way it remened me of Admiral Scheer never getting to visist his oponent from Jutland admiral Jellicoe after the war.
"shell magnet ", such a wonderful description of a ship. 🙂
Perfect timing!
Next week I’m preparing my students for their classes next year, World War One is a a topic they’ll cover but this ties in well covering their course.
Thanks for making my lesson planning easier and for another great video.
That ending was so somber...really makes you think. Excellent work as always Drach.
Yes, starting off Wednesday the right way. Thank you!
Seems like Bismarck was the most reasonable one, Tirpitz the most ruthless/self-interested/narrow-minded, Wilhelm II the weakest, Fisher the most successful.
Oh, and the countries themselves the most f...ed.
For Wilhelm, it's important to remember how gigantic his inferiority complex was on this issue. He was Victoria's eldest grandson, raised with a lot of British influence by his mother, but also heavy German influence from everyone else (obviously). He was also mildly deformed at birth, with one arm noticeably shorter than the other, which messed up his dreams of martial glory in the traditional army-based path of German rulers. And frankly, he was also a puerile little shit, whose sense of humour and ego would have fit in a middle school even when he had been Kaiser for decades. So he was a total mess psychologically, obsessed with showing up his uncle Edward and cousin George on naval matters - he spent decades competing in various sailing races against them, and poured inordinate amounts of effort into winning them. Then he gave interviews to the British press to try to improve relations where he said things like "You English are mad, mad, mad as March hares"...yeah.
Bismarck was sensible but bad at developing durable structures of government, Tirpitz was just a naval obsessive who didn't really care about anything else, and Fisher was incredibly competent, but...unique. (For a fun bit of trivia, the first known use of "OMG!", in the same sense we use it today, was in a letter Fisher wrote.)
@@Alsadius If there had been a "second Bismarck" or if he were granted two lifetimes, World War One would not have occurred. No WWI = no WWII. Far from a likable personality but compared to the statesmen, kings and emperors around him, a tower of intellect, a chess master who could foresee consequences the others would never even know existed. I have a soft spot for a man who recorded in his diary, "was up all night hating."
@@Alsadius Perfect! Much more elaborate than I could´ve said it.
They all had their shortcomings, but the one with the most unfortunately had the most power.
Bismarck had a real flaw though, he couldn't conceive of a chaotic world. He was the ideal encapsulation of the times he lived, he followed the ideals of discipline and enlightened autocracy to where he couldn't conceive of such a fuck up like Willy and Nicky taking hold of the preeminent continental european empires. His folly was that he was a great leader to himself but it didn't matter what the thought, to Willhelm II he was a stubborn old fool.
And on the british side they were smart, intelligent and driven by the highest ethics 😂
There's nothing quite like a full Rum Ration at 06:30 hours to start my Wednesday off right!
Thanks Drach!:-)
Ahhh, nothing like falling to sleep to the dulcet tones of Drach. Thanks for another great video bud!
And then suddenly hearing that ending, you start crying internally
I know i did
I started out doing the same, falling asleep and having sweet little ship dreams. After a while I became so engrossed in the stories it just kept me awake longer! 😂
Now, I save Drach videos for days when I can devote my full attention to them. 😎
I went to Orkney with my then German girlfriend and her father ( who happened to then be a Kapitän zur See in the Bundesmarine) and his comment on the scuttling of much of the Imperial German Navy at Scapa Flow was 'for all it mattered, it would have been better if we spent all that money on torpedo boats!'
DO YOU SEE TORPEDO BOATS?
That last bit almost brought me to tears.. I can't imagine what was going on in the heads of all the naval officers and servicemen fighting each other a month after they enjoyed friendly terms and completion.
I'm not sure how great the Germans could rock a gunboat, but they sure knew how to rock a beard
You don't want to rock a gunboat much, they don't have much freeboard AND it makes it hard to aim!
That last few minutes is just one of a million perfect examples of why politicians should be treated as the scum of the earth
An especially strong "whistlestop tour" (as Drach calls it). The ability to mix political philosophy and action, ambitions, industrial strength etc. etc, into a coherent narrative is not easy. Well done!
"Friends in the past, and friends forever."
Hard to imagine that after such warm and friendly encounters between both navies they begin turning and pointing 12 and 13.5 inch barrels at each other later.
Dreadnought had been built so fast as a PR stunt, they were forced to cannibalize two pre-dreads under construction to do it.
It proved to be the right decision overall to be honest.
@@highjumpstudios2384 They had no choice, The IJN had already laid down theirs and the USN and KM already had designs ready and approved.
The only thing left for the RN was to pretend they were acting and not reacting.
@@trauko1388 they could have built yet another larger pre dreadnought.
@@highjumpstudios2384 Sure, and they would have been mocked like the French for doing something so idiotic.
@@trauko1388 Sounds like a personal problem then.
I never thought I'd see Maverick on this channel. Thank you sparing us from the song.
Actually, some of the competition also arose from the merchant Navy... During a fleet Review the Kaiser visited the RMS Teutonic AND Said "we must have some of this"...
And RMS Teutonic was a fine ship.
@@samwecerinvictus it was indeed
Another presentation of the superb quality we've come to expect.
Thanks Drach.
I'm in the middle of Massey's book at the moment. It is slightly comic when the Germans designated Britain as the main enemy to justify the fleet rather than vice-versa
Strategically the Dreadnought was a blunder since it nullified the great advantage the Royal Navy had over everybody else in pre-dreadnoughts. Before 1906 Admiralty policy was never to lead on technical innovation but wait for others, usually the French, to do so and then to use British superiority in industry and shipyards to take the lead once more. The all-big-gun battleship heightened Anglo-German rivalry since the two fleets could start almost from even strength once the Germans caught on and laid down their own dreadnoughts. Great series.
The problem is that both Japan and the United States were either planning or constructing all big gun battleships at the time. Only the speed of Dreadnought's construction led to her being the first one in operation.
Drach, that was an amazing half hour that left me with goosebumps. You've outdone yourself.
What an amazing stroll through the 35 or so years before the Great War. Really riveting stuff. Thank you Drach
Loving the use of Tom Cruise at the mention of the Danger Zone!
Some facts I believe about the Imperial German Navy's ships:
The Nassau class was seriously powerful and showed their force at Jutland.
The Von Der Tann was underestimated by the British
The Derfflinger and Lutzow were undoubtedly the best battlecruisers of WW-I
The Kaiser and Konig classes were generally powerful for their time and matched the Iron Duke class
The last German dreadnoughts in the Bayern class could have served up to early WW-II and act as commerce raiders in the Atlantic
HMS Tiger generally takes the spot for best Battlecruiser of WW1
Bayern class would have been relevant even in 1945, had they somehow managed to survive until then. Not that this was particularly likely to happen.
No way would the Bayerns be used for commerce raiding. They were still dreadnoughts, which meant they were incredibly slow and unsuited to intercepting convoy routes.
Moreover, if for some reason they ever did continue to use them right up until the end of the war, their final form would likely be similar to the QE refits.
Ehh, the Bayerns (and German capital ships in general, especially the Dreadnought BBs) had horrible armour layouts, it was only the shitty British shells the allowed the fleet to escape Jutland remotely intact. The proof is the extensive gunnery tests performed post-war on those ships, tests that left the British extremely unimpressed. The point that they calculated, based on post-war confirmed hits, that they where cheated out of sinking at least a half-dozen German capital ships by their faulty fuses.
People are often unaware of the fact that prior to World War I, the Germans and the English had never exchanged hostilities. In fact, leading up to the opening days of WWI, relations between the two were exceptionally good.
People also don't know that prior to Wilhelm II Prussia/Germany were better US allies than the French.
this was a very good documentary,
I haven't seen them this long in a while
Always a treat when Drach discusses geostrategy.
That ending, though. While I firmly believe that there is more to war than politics, I cannot deny that I am royally pissed that two countries that had been trying to one-up each other in a, relatively speaking, friendly arms race, and became comrades with each other, were then sent to fight each other. Absolutely horrible. While I forget who exactly initially declared war, I cannot forgive them for doing what they did, knowing their two countries were at the best of relations they had ever been.
This was very good, Drach. It got me pumped up all over again, waiting for "Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnoughts" to drop on Steam.
Play some Rule the Waves in the mean time. UA:D wont come that soon
Just before I have to leave for the bus! Perfect timing! Riveting stuff!
Excellent! No doubt another half hour very well spent!
This is rapidly becoming my favourite channel on RUclips, and im not even that much of a boat buff
It is Worth noting that Bismarck was in some ways responsible to germany gaining a bigger naval interest. The 2nd Schleswig war showed prussia how it felt to not having any ses controll at all
Just the right timing for the upload
The idea of Anglo-German relations being so good seems less out of place when you recall their respective monarchs were first cousins.
I've been looking forward to this
Intriguing bit of naval history, thank you!
Admiral Fisher with the haircut in those pictures feels anachronistic. Looks like a guy you'd see working at a bank today.
Great video! One thing I missed a bit was the explanation as to why the Germans stuck to their 12inch gun. Had more money been available, the Königs could have been upgunned, but the Naval Laws assumed a steady price for each BB as time went on, which was of course not the case. However, it might have been possible to come up with a 350mm gun, like the one used on the Mackensen class later, and drop the midship turret in exchange.
Nevertheless, in my opinion the König and Derfflinger classes were the best 12inch gunned BBs and BCs ever built.
32cm guns were considered and dropped for the Konigs, due to cost. Triple turrets too.
The Bayerns were supposed to have 40cm guns, guess what happened?
@@trauko1388 I think they finally learnt their lesson when they drew up the L20ea design with its 420mm guns.
Although the G3-class battlecruiser was a far superior design when compared to the L20ea.
A fleeting moment of camaraderie between the British and German navies in June 1914, marked by mutual cheers and goodwill, tragically foreshadowed the brutal conflict that would erupt between them just weeks later, culminating in the monumental Battle of Jutland two years on.
I wonder if Tirpitz left any commentary on his opinion of Mahan. Willhelm II seemed to be quite taken with Mahan, and I'm sure this suited Tirpitz just fine, but I wonder if Tirpitz was influenced.
On matters naval you could not oppose Wilhelm. If he was a Mahan fan you were too. Actually that's no mental stretch at all for Tirpitz; he's totally Mahanian. The Kaiser ordered copies of The Influence to be placed in every naval vessel's wrdroom.
Ah, Drach, your commentary is priceless! You sir, by using facts from and the quotes of the main players, with you own sparking wit,lift you to the level of an “Oscar Wilde” for naval history!
I would’ve loved to see an alt where hms dreadnought never existed and everyone had these silly little battleships shooting at each other in the First World War. Imagine how cool that would look
Great job, Drach! One of your best Wednesday videos yet!
It seems that after Bismark was fired Germany just made wrong decision after wrong decision........
I've come to the view that the creation of the High Seas Fleet was probably the greatest (peace time) military mistake and largest waste of military spending by any single country in the past couple of centuries. It could be argued that Germany needed a moderate sized naval force to defend its interests in the Baltic and discourage a potential invasion of the Baltic coast by either France or Russia in event of a war with either country.
The building of the High Seas Fleet not only created a dangerous and largely unreachable enemy; in Britain; where none had existed before, it was a huge waste of resources. There were some years between 1897 and 1914 when naval spending in Germany equaled half of all military spending of that country. In spite of the huge outlay of funds and industrial effort that was lavished on the creation of the High Seas Fleet, when the war started in 1914 German naval leaders had no say at all in Germany's military strategy; the Imperial German Army made all the important decisions. Of course, this makes sense as the war against France and Russia would be won or lost on land, not at sea.
What is more telling about the uselessness of the High Seas Fleet is that its leaders quite literally had no strategy in mind for the use their large but still badly outnumbered fleet. Well, unless you think hope is a viable military strategy. German naval leaders hoped the Grand Fleet's admirals would attempt to setup and maintain a close blockade of Germany which would allow mines, coastal submarines and night time torpedo attacks by torpedo boats and destroyers to whittle down the Grand Fleet to a size that would allow the High Seas Fleet to come out of port and fight on even terms. Taking advantage of an enemy doing something stupid is intelligent. Relying on your enemy doing something stupid is insane; and it certainly can't be described as strategic thinking.
Finally, it could be argued that without the creation of the High Seas Fleet, it is unlikely the Triple Entente between France, Russia and Great Britain would have ever taken place. Without Great Britain in that alliance, France gets stomped and Russia gets slowly worn down. The High Seas Fleet helped to destroy an empire. Unfortunately for its creators, it was the Imperial German Empire which it helped to destroy.
A final bit of information to impart. The irony of Admiral Tirpitz saying that England was the "ultimate enemy" is that he sent his children to study in England and he was a fan of English literature. After the war, the former Kaiser Wilhelm II would say that the best time of his life was when he was a child and visited Portsmouth, UK and got to see the newest ships of the Royal Navy at anchor. If only it had been decided to take the young Wilhelm to see something else, perhaps the remains of Hadrian's Wall. Maybe he would have developed a fixation on archeology instead of navies.
Our nuclear arsenals are a far greater waste of resources, and vastly more dangerous than the High Seas Fleet was. I’ve spent my entire 58 years under this hair-trigger abomination. It will continue far past my death.
@@gerardlabelle9626 if you genuinely think that then you are delusional, nukes are the sole reason that we aren't on ww5 by now, you know mutually assured destruction? Nuclear arsenals are a deterrence that actually works, the high seas fleet was a deterrent that really didn't work
In the year 1892, Drachinifel becomes chief of the navy staff in Germany, instead of von Tirpitz. How do you build up the German Navy moving forward, from 1892 until the early 1910s? Do you try to keep the Kaiserliche Marine a glorified coastal defense fleet? Or do you try to build a fleet that actually follows the Risk Theory as originally planned, instead of trying to outright beat the Royal Navy halfway through?
We'll assume that you have as much funding as the German Empire can offer, and any politician who tries to cut your funding will be sent to Greenland for a permanent vacation
Edit: guess I forgot to relpy to the pinned post so this is just a normal comment XD oops...
I imagine that, even without knowledge of what is to come (but still having at least the "essence" of knowing what he does about shis), Drach is a fairly level headed individual who would likely push for small numbers of superior vessels that remain well designed. Likely siding with Bismarck's thoughts of NOT antagonizing the English at sea, but perhaps still at least pushing for enough vessels to at least easily fend off any non-British alliances from messing with them.
Of course, only Drachnifel himself can answer what he would actually do.
Wait Drach, didn’t you already do a video on this? Or have I watched too many of your videos referencing the Anglo-German arms race?
I think it the latter because the number of historicaly significant ship produce due to Anglo-German arms race
I can't be sure if your question is an inside joke or a serious question 😅
I've mentioned it many times, occasionally at length, but I don't remember doing a specific video on it before. 😀
@@Drachinifel Thats ok, I have been watching you for the last 3 years. I get confused on if I have watched this before. LOL I am almost all the way through all the Drydock videos for the 4th time!
If that so Drachiwood's remakes are better, than "mousewoods" :)
Dr Alexander Clarke did a series on Dreadnought construction a couple of months back - perhaps that was what you remembered?
Hence the "entente cordialle". Shame really as Fisher never wanted the nation involved in a slogging land fight and wanted to Copenhagen the German fleet in a pre emptive attack. The entente is a mystery really, since it could be foreseen that it could lock us into a land battle with the French allies. We even sold the Germans Helligoland Island before the war, where they might have based submarines. All of this is a very strange strategy to "save" an empire.
Excellent Wednesday Rum Ration. My wife is a history buff, and even she was listening intently.
Seems a bit ironic that Bismarck's sistership is named after Tirpitz when the 2 didn't seem to get along. Not to mention Bismarck not wanting a super big Navy to begin with.
As another commenter said (paraphrased) "One has to imagine Bismark rolling in his grave when they named a ship that was effectively exactly the opposite of what he wanted after him. And him trying to claw his way out when they named it's sister after one of the men he despised the most"
I've watched this 3 times now since it dropped on Wednesday (It's Friday.) I've learned something with each viewing.
"There was a period where Tirpitz referred to as 'The Danger Zone'"...I'm disappointed that I thought it was going to be an "Archer" reference, not a "Top Gun" one.
Damn.
Thank you for not using shitty clickbait titles / thumbnails. Your videos are informative and excellent , your video titles / thumbnails match this and I thank you.
Feel free to use the picture of the SMS Kaiser bow shield
Seing this race makes me think the war was inevatible.
What a phenomenal video!
Don't know if this has been asked (and answered) before. Why were Japans submarines (which were allegedly among the best at the time) so ineffective? And why did the Japanese not use convoys being an island nation totally dependend on imports by sea? Convoys and u-boats were both very effectively used in WW1 and again in WW2 by the Allies and the Germans respectively. Didn't Japan look into that cornucopia of experience and data? Or did they and decide otherwise?
you should put this in the Q&A, would love to hear Drach's answer
my feeling.... they were faced with very different conditions
The Japanese did use convoys. Their escort to merchant ship ratio was higher than in the Atlantic. They were, however, sailing in more restricted seas than the Atlantic, and they had to sail through many choke points.
As for submarines, they sank _Wasp,_ did in _Yorktown,_ and torpedoed _Saratoga_ every time she left port. That sounds effective to me. I don't think using them against merchants would have been practical, given the size of the Pacific.
Japanese submarine doctrine held that the subs should hang out near, and support, the Battle fleet. This meant that hunting merchants was a secondary task and limited their effectiveness (although they still had several successes against USN ships, see above). By contrast, the US and German navies unleashed their subs in unrestricted warfare, and gave them free range to hunt far and wide, wherever they could find ANY enemy shipping. This is why Japanese subs seem so ineffective compared to US and German subs in the same period.
Japanese sub doctrine largely placed submarines on duty to sink enemy capital ships, you know. Aircraft carriers, battleships the like. It often didn't put them in a great situation to sink enemy merchant vessels.
One of the most critical but underappreciated points in naval history. By putting HMS Dreadnought down the slips, the RN instantly made its entire fleet obsolete. This 'start from scratch' allowed not just the German navy, but FAR more importantly in history the US navy, to start building again from parity, and not needing to 'catch up' with the RN allowed the US navy, with its vastly greater production base, to zoom ahead and take the place as the number 1 naval power on the planet.
Except the US didn't come close to matching British battleship building rates before WWI. Then the US agreed to limit itself to a navy the same size as the RN with the Washington and later London treaties. It wasn't until WWII that the USN became larger than the RN, over 35 years after HMS Dreadnought was launched.
Nor was the US' production base 'vastly bigger' at that time, especially when it came to large warships, large naval guns, and heavy armour. In fact, before WWI there were times when the US had trouble producing large guns with the expected performance and with a reasonable weight.
Note that during this naval arms race, as Drach pointed out, the British shipyards were building a large number of dreadnoughts (and other smaller ships) for other navies, and were actively looking for more contracts. British ship-building capacity in the pre-dreadnought and dreadnought era was absolutely immense and nobody else had anything like the capacity.
@@rupertboleyn3885 I was on about the long term consequences. Dreadnought basically reset the naval powers. Yes the RN surged ahead, but NOWHERE near as far ahead as at previously was.
The USN went from being a 'small localised navy' to a 'blue water power' once dreadnoughts were a thing. And the fact they sufferered very little loss in WW1 helped them greatly.
I wonder where the naval arms would have gone if the 1914 crisis and the resulting war had been avoided.
Germany had already given up, you see, the Prussian army DID NOT WANT ANY COMMIE GERMANS IN ITS OFFICER CORPS!
They had already ran out of good Prussian junker boys with them making just 60% of thier officer corps, so they REJECTED any pressure to increase the size of the army because that meant allowing more GERMANS, specially urban ones, into the army, diluting ITS POLITICAL RELIABILITY.
So, the Army ALWAYS supported spending in the navy... until they could no longer do so due to the HUGE increases in the Russian and French armies, at whcih point they had to react after two decades of inaction and increase the size of the army, that meant money was needed and so the navy would not be getting extra ships.
If the Germans had been more preoccupied with the actual threats than with playing internal politics, there would have been a far larger German army and, THEREFORE NO WAR.
And a smaller navy as a consequence of the shifted priorities.
Every week I am stunned by the sheer knowledge and dedication frlm drach. Greetings from Germoney
You think Bismarck may have been right. He said a war with Britain would lose them their overseas possessions.