South American Dreadnoughts - The Race Is On!
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- Опубликовано: 6 ноя 2018
- Today we look not at one, but three classes of dreadnoughts, with two others making guest appearances!
Read more about this here:
www.amazon.co.uk/Latin-Americ...
www.amazon.co.uk/Conways-Worl...
www.amazon.co.uk/Conways-Worl...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_A...
Royal Navy: Wait, why are you building stronger ships for South America?
British Shipyards: *It's just business.*
Besides, they were already working on the Orion class, which was even bigger and more powerful, not to mention these big South American ships would have been seriously outnumbered in any dust up with the Royal Navy
Stonks.
@CipiRipi00 And the British shipyards would only be more than happy to build more dreadnoughts for any allied south american nation. Once again...
*It's just business.*
@CipiRipi00 Payment can also come in the form of unfair trade deals, or ridiculously long 100 year claims to your most profitable deep water ports. *Adjusts monocle*
@CipiRipi00 By the time that happens, Japan will be in the market for battleships, so you can drop your now broke south american clients. *It's just business.* 🧐
My grandfather sailed on the Latorre, he was a torpedo expert and he was very proud of being a crew member of Chile's largest and strongest flagship ever. He was always telling stories about his sailing days. He passed at age 87, 25 years ago.
This is the very definition of counters and powercreep in videogames.
Speaking of which, the Minas Gerais unit is one of the reasons I love playing as Brazil in Civ 6.
Argentina 1910: "Give us your battleships or we'll invade you!"
Argentina 1982: "Give us your islands or we'll invade you!"
Give us your islands or we'll invade you and take them!*
England 1910: *King Edward laughs*
England 1982: *Margaret Thatcher laughs*
And both governments collapsed as a result
@@KingGeorgeV1914 surprised to see you here
@@Stellar001100 _England 1910: King Edward laughs_
The threat was towards Brazil, not the UK, so Edward doesn't make sense appearing in the joke.
When you a not a major power and suddenly build a op BB and the world don't believe the BB is yours XD
LOL
I mean they didn't build them tho.
You lack true knowledge of history. Who is not a major power?
IF it weren't for the War of Paraguay, a war the brits desperately managed to ignite, you would be using either Spanish or Portuguese for this comment right now.
@@flu-fiorde4324 That is hilarious
@@flu-fiorde4324 sure they're pretty damn strong regionally, But nowhere strong enough to challange the royal navy lmao.
A good friend of mine who is also into history is dating a Chilean woman. I showed him this video and he absolutely loved the line "anything you can do, I can do better", finding it particularly accurate of the Chilean spirit, as well as South American national rivalries in general to the point where he has now adopted it in general conversation.
Haha my fiancee is Chilean and yup, it's true.
12:00 The Chilean Navy, modeled after the British one, buys British/European ships.
The Army, modeled after the Prussian one, buys German tanks.
The Air Force, modeled after the US one, buys only American.
Ahhh, military procurement in my little country 😂😂
Learn from the best, buy from the best... or at least that was the idea.
@@MadSpectro7 Yeah, the British lost their Naval talent a while back
Chile had American tanks for years before buying the Leopards... Chile love to think their european (and I live here). Only American planes? Mirage, Super Tucano ??
@@fulanitoflyer Ok, about the tanks, but about the planes, most of the planes of FACH have been American, even the historical ones with the notable exception (for that reason we all know) the Hawker Hunter; and even now they are buying more US-made equipment like the new Black Hawks, so the they buy American in 1st, 2nd and 3rd place and only if they can't they decide for other nations.
The only time FACH had a real chance to acquire something different was with the Gripen, and that didn't end well for that plane. In fact, if it weren't so stupidly expensive, take for granted they would want to buy F-35s and then would find a reason to do that, like "We need this shiny, new, and expensive plane to throw a JDAM to that terrorist penguins outside Punta Arenas" or something like that.
@Richard Moloney I'm going to guess defence budget of about 2% gdp or there abouts?? Last invasion USA.
I read in an Osprey book that the British really liked the Almirante Latorre/Canada, and the Admiralty considered her one of the better ships in the Grand Fleet during WWI. I guess Chile could be happy that their ship was Royal Navy-certified.
chile always has royal navy certified ships :), today more than ever, because beside the historical friendship, the commonwealth have great interest in the help of Chile in the pacific and polinesia.
Too bad it only fought against other chileans but good it didn’t see another war.
"But the Moreno celebrated its first journey by running over a barge and running aground twice."
I laughed way too hard at this. Made me think of a very excited, large dog running things down and tripping over its own feet. xD
Some navigator and spotter they had.
It's a naval tradition, continued to this day. ;)
Getting "drunk" in the Atlantic, classic Moreno
Moreno (the actual guy) had a signature streak of bad luck involving the sea, the British and the military in general: he was a lawyer dragged into the revolution, and had zero experience with the military.
looks like the trend stuck.
It could have been worse... it could have been the Voyage of the 2nd Pacific Squadron
"List of armed conflicts in South America"
"This list is incomplete, *you can help by expanding it*"
read about the pacific war in 1879 (saltpeter war), you will be surprise
Welcome to South America. Where the crazy politics are normal.
ay yay yay too much coccain.
where*
Ahh, you are similar to the British then.
Depends on the country
@@thatdutchguy2882 Sure, because dutch politics are so sane.
Peru: Has the biggest ship in the pacific ocean roaming around wrecking chilean ships
Sand bank: Im about to end this man´s whole career
Real bad luck on the peruvians, since the maritime campaing really defines anything you want to do on the south american west coast, the harshest desert in the world, after all, is there.
f
Battle of punta gruesa
Boom, bam, bop
... bada-bop-boom, pow!
Not true.
Punta Gruesa combat aside....Chileans "Blanco" and "Cocrahne" were newer and much better ships in every relevant military aspect than "Independencia"....
South America
*Pays exorbitant amounts of money for modern dreadnoughts*
Crew
M U T I N Y T I M E
Money well spent
They spent all their money on the dreadnoughts and had none left to pay their crews.
to do that pretty much sums up the environment everywhere during the battleship armas races of the early 20th century.
Thiago Piwowarczyk, it provides some context for the Washington Naval Treaty, doesn’t it? “No one can really afford to build ships or pay crews, so let’s all agree to limit them being built.”
Crew: *It's free real estate*
Do a video on the Bolivian Navy. Yes I know it will be a short video. ;-)
As strange as it may seem, Bolivia actually does have a navy.
@@blokeabouttown2490 in a lake? lol
@@themobstar58 yes
@@caijones156 - That lake mentioned above is an high altitude lake in Western Bolivia. But they also have a navy on the Paraguay river in the lowlands of Eastern Bolivia which empties into the South Atlantic. Just watch this and you will see -
ruclips.net/video/QD6GUr3DMI8/видео.htmlm15s - That long ship "G15" is a visiting Brazilian naval ship.
And in theirs rivers
"Yes, Virginia, Argentina was once financially sound."
Oddly enough, the electorate there in a fit of sanity elected a libertarian president who put the government on a path to solvency in 3 months
Vickers salesman: Would Sir like a 14" gun with that dreadnought.
Chilean navy: Si
It is interesting to think that all the 3 LatinAmerican Dreadnoughts could have been modernized like the battleships of the Main naval powers between world wars.
For Minas Gerais, They could have changed the 6 twin 12' turrets with 4 twin 14 inch /45 like the ones in the USS New York and Nevada classes. Also a propulsion plant change and bow redesign could have resulted in modern battlecruisers for the time being. If the focus would have been into "Battleship like" upgrade, protection could have been improved (both belt and deck) but i think the starting point was too low to get to a satisfying result, therefore a too much of a large improvement should have been needed. At the end of the day, a Kongo-like modernization should have been the best bet for the class.
The Rivadavia Class could have received similar main armament modernization (replacing the 6 twin 12' with 4 twin 14/45) change that was in fact planned by the Argentineans as a part of a major upgrade plan for the class, but budget restriction forced to maintain the 12 inchers. In this class, the belt and deck armor had a better starting point, so at the end of the day a propulsion plant change and increase in the deck and belt armor would have been posible, ended up with battleships on pair with USS Standars in terms of protection and about as good as Kongos in terms of firepower.
Lastly, Latorre could have just incremented his armor protection both belt and deck at the expense of speed, which could have even been compensated with a new improved powerplant. There's no doubt this was the battleship with best upgrade perspective, since it started with guns that were not obsolete for WW2 standars.
At some point the Latin American naval race was in response to pure theoretical conflict. Except for the 1978 south border "Beagle" crisis between Argentina and Chile, the relationships where allways very peacefull between the 3 neighbors. Despite that, armed forces between the 3 where allways on pair (parity which in fact broke after 1982 Malvinas/Falklands conflict, due to the fact that Argentina was gradualy desarmed). That being said, i think the Argentinean Dreadgnouths at a distance of about 10NM had better belt protection and firepower enough to penetrate Brasilean and Chilean ships... but those advantages where so slight that at the end of the day a conforntation result would have been absolutely circumstantial
Nobody had money in the 1930s.
Instead of buying these ships, would it not have been cheaper to build shore artillery batteries. Example - ruclips.net/video/MUmkb_g7cx4/видео.html
@@ab9840 Artillery batteries can't protect your merchant ships away from port. Argentina and Brazil had a war in early 1800, despite Argentinean expedition invading brazil and winning some battles there, the Imperial Brazil had naval superiority and forced a blockade on Buenos Aires... That forced an armistice due to Argentinean urgency of resuming trade with (mainly) UK.
So the lesson is that you need a balanced naval power compared to your neighbors in order to secure your own trade routes.
Besides, did you see how many km/miles Argentina Brazil and Chile have of coast? how can you protect your entire coast? and even if you could, the expense would be much much higher. Naval Artilley might work on some specificic coastal points like Gibraltar or near strategic structures like some ports or shipyards, but they are not a global solution
Minas Gerais was the first battleship built in the Dreadnought era to NOT include torpedo tubes?
How were they at the forefront of such thinking?
Simple, torpedoes are expensive.
Nice vid, but you forget about something related to the Rivadavia-class, take a look at this:
"The Argentine government requested in 1929 in Germany, projects for the replacement of the 305mm Bethlehem guns, and obtained up to three proposals: the simplest one consisted of conserving the guns but modified to shoot heavier projectiles and with greater angle of elevation. Another proposed to replace it with pieces of the same caliber but with a new model. Finally, it was suggested the replacement of the 12 guns by 6 double main turrets of 356 mm. The lack of budget (because in those years two modern cruisers and three submarines were hired in Italy and two destroyers in Spain) made the main armament of Moreno and Rivadavia not change."
Do you have any more details about this? Replacing 305mm guns with 356mm doesn't seem particularly feasible. At least not on a 1-for-1 basis. And if it was a proposal to replace each *pair* of 305mm twin turrets with a 356mm twin, that would've probably been considered an unacceptably low overall barrel count.
Britain: hey Your battleship is in my parking space... Brazil: oh hey yeah sorry, can you just send it back to us?Britain, Ha! nooooooo
The race kept on after WWII: see Brazil's constant search for carriers.
"And then the crew mutinied"
Very interesting. We often hear about the major power's ships but rarely about the South American ones. Great work!
"Managed to make it to the scrap yard without vanishing." LOL Classic
And fast forward to 2018 and planes and submarines are the battleships of today. Although Brazil once again had a second hand carrier, this time French rather than British, the worn out condition of the carrier combined with several major fires since being brought on strength in 2000 led to her decommissioning in 2017 and probable scrapping. Given the need for the Brazilians to have something that looked like a carrier in the fleet, she scrambled to make the British and offer they couldn't refuse and purchased the ex-HMS Ocean, renaming her the Atlantico. Since she is a mere 20 years old, the youngest major ship purchased from another navy since the Brooklyn class light cruisers in 1951, there's some chance that she may remain in service for another 15 years or so as a helicopter carrier. The dreams of Brazil to operate a true fixed wing carrier appear to be dashed at the moment.
Argentina and Chile are no longer major players in South America. Argentina is in deep financial trouble, and her surface fleet has been relegated to possibly a few corvettes. Chile maintains a much more effective navy, but the youngest combat ships are the ex British Duke class frigates at 28 years old with other classes now being 30 years old or or older. Chilleans now seem content to control the Pacific coastline of her long borders while maintaining a navy strong enough to dissuade the Argentine and Peruvian Navies from any mischief. Speaking of Peru, while she wasn't part of the early 20th century arms race, she has now modernized most of her vessels and is probably the equal of Chile and much stronger than Argentina.
The newest race is for submarines and naval aircraft. The Brazilians are still talking about building a nuclear sub, and Brazil, Peru, and Chile will all have air-independent submarines sometime in the 2020's. AI subs will be the new Dreadnoughts of the 21st century. Brazil is looking toward Embraer to build a new maritime patrol aircraft that would be the equal of the P-3 Orion, as well as maintaining their current fleet of upgraded Skyhawks, aircraft that don't have a carrier to operate from after a long battle with the Air Force to allow the Navy to operate fixed wing combat aircraft. There are rumors that Peru is in talks with Russia for a new maritime patrol platform as well as new SU-35s that could serve as maritime strike aircraft. Chile may cooperate with Brazil and Embraer in purchasing a new maritime patrol aircraft while continuing to upgrade its considerable fleet of F-16s. The Dreadnought race may be over but the arms race in South America continues unabated.
LOL!!! Sorry but... the peruvian navy the equal of Chile? Absurd!
The Peruvian Navy uses ships that have never been modernized beyond a few modest changes, their ships are all approaching 40 using original electronics... they even took 4 extra frigates of the same class as a means to claim military relevance by matching Chilean numbers... meanwhile, Chilean ships are FAR more modern and are kept up to date, they are not a sailing museum...
There is no race in South America, there are two countries that invest enough to keep up to date, and then there is the rest... simple as that.
@@trauko1388 Well, I have to assume you're Chilean. I'm not about to get into a pissing match with you about relative strengths of the two navies except to say the Peruvians have embarked on a modernization program encompassing all six of their Type 209/1100 and 1200 submarines, modernization of all their guided missile frigates, and have taken delivery of two new Korean built 11,000 ton landing platform docks. If you think that's the sign of second rate navy in South America then your nationalism is overcoming your rationalism.
@@sarjim4381 LOL!!! And you are CLEARLY Peruvian!
Your subs are MORE THAN 40 YEARS OLD! That means the steel the hulls are made off is reaching its useful life, you are "modernizing" submarines with little life in them but I understand, NEW subs are VERY expensive, Chile bought two and is about to begin the SECOND modernization of our 209/1400s before they are replaced.
LPDs, ships built to civilian specs, steel is cheap, up to date electronics and weapons are what make warships expensive, which is why those light frigates of yours remain with the same old equipment, because THAT is expensive.
You bought 4 Lupos claiming two were for spares... and put crews in them!!! LOL! Just to waste money and pretend you matched Chile in numbers, and only in that, because in capabilities... you are FAR behind.
And yet you talk about naval strike SU 35s! LOL!!!!
Chile is already looking to replace its older surface units as part of a long and gradual process... can Perú say the same? For their 8 40 YEARS OLD AND OBSOLETE Lupos?
Get real.
@@trauko1388 No, I'm American. I refuse to get drawn into this kind of nationalistic pissing match when I have no dog in the fight. I was merely relating what I've read from other reasonably authoritative sources like Janes. You may draw whatever conclusions you like. I really don't care.
@@sarjim4381 LOL!!! Sure kid, like Janes is gonna say stupid things like Peruvian Su35s and an arms race is SA... please... you are either Peruvian or, at best, you were FOOLED by one.
Very well summary of this often forgotten arms race that was deadly serious for an entire continent. I love these kinds of forgotten history, especially this one as it was influential outside of South America as well. Thank you for making this video.
4:55
In most latin languages, including Portuguese, G is pronounced like the "S" is in the word "Vision".
Not in Spanish
Lol
If you want to review a rarely discussed ship, you can go over the tribal class destroyers of world war two. They were more like pocket cruisers than destroyers and played significant roles in every engagement they were involved in. The last of her kind ( There was a total of 27 of the type built in England and in Canada ) H.M.C.S. Haida, is now a museum ship in Hamilton Ontario Canada. The most powerful destroyer of the war in my opinion.
Do an episode of Finnish coastal defence ship Ilmarinen (and Väinämöinen). "Finland must be a strong sea power, even their lighthouse ships are armed with 10-inch guns."
I agree as I would like to see how 10 inch guns could be made to fit on ships 3,900 tons displacement.
@@brianspendelow840 Probably in similar fashion to fitting 15 inch guns on ships 8,000 ton displacement.
Would also like to mention that love the channel, keep at the good work
@DOUG HEINS Thanks for reinforcing the point that 10 inch guns on nearly 4,000 tons displacement isn't exactly a jaw dropping technical feat. :)
@@brianspendelow840 BOOM they roll over and back up for another one. We will get that son of a bitch on one these rolls.
The poor: Government, why did you spent all the money for capital warships instead providing a perspective for us?
Government: So you go hungry with pride.
True!! but really sad.
Or that our enemies don't come and rob what little you still have.
You forget commerce. At the time, most of the commerce (import/export/internal) was carried by ships. If your enemy has a battleship and you do not, in a war you have no commerce. This includes food getting moved from one point to another. And none of the countries could risk depending on foreign countries.
Never-the-less these South American nations do have large coastlines and economic zones that require patrolling and defending. All of the nations are dependent upon trade mostly done by shipping. Major commodities feed their economies: bananas, coffee, sugar, grain, and livestock. And on top of all of this, they require small armed forces to maintain the domestic peace and respond to natural disasters...
Yeah but see how you feed all those people when two ships of your enemy can blockade any port.
Great video, even more so as most of these ships were built in my home town, Newcastle-upon-Tyne. The Rio de Janeiro was sold to the Ottomans even before it was completed and 500 sailors turned up in 1914 to collect it. The British however seized the ship and Churchill ordered it to be held by force if necessary, after the Turkish sailors threatened to board her. The seizure of the ship, which had been partly funded by public subscription, was actually illegal and was a major factor in the Ottomans deciding to ally themselves with the central powers during WW1. At Gallipoli they got their revenge on Churchill, who was forced to resign as First Lord of the Admiralty after the invasion turned into a disaster. The Rio de Janeiro eventually became HMS Agincourt and fought at the Battle of Jutland, along with many more ships built in Newcastle.
The best ship to go into depth on is BB-35, USS Texas, "The Last Dreadnought".
it was a good watch. you will enjoy it.
Hmmm, I dread nought.
7:14
Thanks for that moment of exquisite British humor :-D
Just found this channel, your vids and research skills are great! From one history lover and writer awesome work and never stop!
well that was bloody marvellous. I thoroughly enjoyed that vid.
BTW I subscribed on the basis of 1 vid because this was well researched and no nonsense.
You get to the point and I finally got a 'recommended for you' etc vid that delivers!
1:39 "such as rubber, coffee, BEEF, and min-rals"
Just some notes in the pronounciation of the portuguese names on brazilian ships: the GE in Geraes is pronounced as /ʒeˈɾajs/ . This video has the correct pronounciation (Note that the new writing form is to match the pronounciation) ruclips.net/video/a1NItKYIDM0/видео.html . The CH in Riachuelo is pronounced as the SH in English words like shoe, english, shop, shield and not like the CH in words like Michelangelo, Michael etc.
So "Ree-ah-sh-ello"?
@@Drachinifel -shoo - elo
Don't worry. You did fine your way all the way in the video. I love it, btw.
Thanks, there's a seperate video on the ship coming up soon so want to get the name right!
Very good my friend. Greetings from Brasil!
I'm surprised I haven't run across this channel yet. Very informative video. I've always been fascinated with the navy and have even considered joining on a few occasions. You got yourself a new subscriber. :)
Great video! Never thought I would see a video on this topic. Instant like and subscribed!
I arrived 2 years late to this amazing content! What a magnificent channel you have, sir! The cited bibliography is astounding, the geopolitical insights. I'm just an enthusiast of naval history, I know a couple of guys here in Venezuela that could add more interesting facts for future Latin American naval history-related videos. Congratulations, sir!
One really can not blame the other nations for accusing the US contractors of deliberately underbidding to get the contract, as everyone in the US knows, that it is all too common for a military contractor to underbid then double or triple the agreed upon cost and several years behind on delivery while the more problems that are encountered, the longer it takes to build the item and the more they get paid! if you have any doubts, just check out the F-35 and the USS Ford!, for example!!
Thank you so much for this video! Had been waiting for it for a while now! :D
No worries, happy to deliver :)
Thank you very much for this video. Was very informative about the history of this ships.
It's worth noting, though, that some time after the mutiny on the Brazilian Navy was resolved, the government went back on some of the promises. Things got pretty brutal, and there are reports of unjust jailings and torture. Some of the mutineers leaders were harassed for years.
It didn't help that most of the sailors involved were poor or of african American descent, contrasting with the Navy leadership.
Did not know conditions for ordinary sailors were this bad in early 20 century Brazil. So how were they in the other Latin American nations that had navies.
torture killing and all that....its good to make whit epeople cry but in those countries its just regular business and no one there bat an eye
@@ragimundvonwallat8961 What are you trying to say?
Excellent and amusing overview of the arms race. Earned yourself a sub.
All your ships belong to us! -UK 1914.
What do you mean a battle ship vanished in a storm
it was being towed to the scrap yard, a storm came up, the ship broke loose and was swamped. sank in the middle of the north atlantic.
Sao Paulo
Got sunk in a storm while on tow, the ghost crew of I think 7 perished
::shakes head:: "How embarrassing . . . lost a battleship, they did."
As someone who reads the comments. I would have to say most are very well thought out. And contain alot of good info.
Knew this was worth covering! Amusingly presented. Thank you.
Thanks Drachinifel for this amazing review! So good I didn't bother with the portuguese names pronunciation being butchered ;-) This part of South American history is not ver well known here in Brazil, so I loved the in-detail narrative. Keep up the fantastic work!
This was awesome. And then the robot voice starts up at the end - perfect, just ... perfect.
Wheras every tech story of the last three or four decades can be summed up with "and then the Internet happened", Naval stories are "then HMS Dreadnought happened" and "then the aircraft carrier happened".
Awesome channel. I’m subscribing!
Good video, with the occassional dose of humor. Looking back at the HMS Agincourt video I realized that there is quite a part of that included here, but now without the robot voice.
Loved seeing all these navies put into one video. It makes sence of their arms race and how it affected the policies of the various governments.
Q&A what are the advantages and disadvantages of the very different methods of loading the propellant charges in BB guns?
The British and others used bagged charges while the Germans used brass cartridge cases for all guns, right up to the very biggest in WW2.
Is one system superior to the other or is it trade offs between the two? I can see pluses and minuses to both.
1:22 Woe! Some of their boarders took up Antarctica? That is amazing! I never thought I would learn that.
I’m pretty sure that nobody is supposed to claim Antarctic but I guess that they don’t care.
Extremely witty. Thank you for sharing.
Wow never knew any of this. Found it very fascinating.
Well, South American history isn't taught in American, Canadian, and European nations, outside a chapter of European conquer and independence, all the nations lumped together. The vast bulk of Americans have no clue how American Samoa ended up being a American territory... a.) bought it b.) annexed it c.) won a war or d.) none of the above... For your information d is the correct answer...
@@ronclark9724 At least in Chile, south american history isn't taught in schools either xD! In my experience after the independence wars and our wars during the second half of the 19th century the focus shifts to the mayor players in Europe and the US during the 20th century and some of our own history during that century but mentions about other countries in the continent are just a footnote.
You have mentioned in a couple of your videos, that the RN used 13.5" guns while commercial yards (like Vickers and Armstrong) was exporting ships with 14" guns. Perhaps part of the reason is that the RN had pre-dreadnoughts (Trafalgar and Royal Sovereign classes) armed with 13.5" guns and thus had experience with the gun caliber (in this case I mean size not barrel length) and had a stock of 13.5" shells already on hand. I remember reading (many years ago) about how, during WW1, they were still using shells with VR marked on them. This might help explain the poor performance of some of the shells at Jutland.
The also overloaded the Battlecruisers with shells and powder that couldn't be stored in the magazine....
For those who do not know, VR probably stood for “Victoria Regina” (Latin for Queen Victoria).
@@davidlium9338 Yes. VR in this case did stand for Queen Victoria. I have thought back and I believe the book I was reading was on HMS Agincourt. It was about 40 years ago but that is, If I remember correctly, the ship I was reading about. I have recently been informed that the 13.5" shells used in the Pre-Dread ships wouldn't work in the newer 13.5" guns. So the failures of those shells can not be blamed on old age.
Somehow my combination interest in miltary vehicles and world of warships brought me here. And I'm glad that it did *subbed*
Another excellent and informative video! Thank You!
Ship Request: U.S.S. Abbot DD 629 "Semper Primus" (1943-1975). Fought in WW2 and Korean Conflict, also at one point survived ramming an aircraft carrier and sailed back to dry dock under her own power.
A random Click brought me here. A subject I never thought about. A fascinating insight into history, and current problems with military procurement. Thank you.
Fascinating, isn't it?
In 1826 was the victory against the Portuguese Navy that assured the independence of Brazil. During the whole XIX century the imperial navy was the main defense force of Brazil, since the European imperialist powers were perceived as a greater threat than any neighbour nation.
After a decade of politic turmoil following the republican coup of 1889, Brazil had not a functional navy.
In 1903 the invasion of Itajai by German fusiliers in search of desertor sailors from the German warship Panther waked up the government of Brazil to the threat by colonial powers such as Germany, and the necessity to rebuild the navy, what was possible at that time. The Brazilian dreadnoughts were not planned to face neighbours but of course it is natural that Brazil would aim to be the leader of the region.
The expensive naval programs in S. America would finish when the countries agreed to limit their forces to an affordable level.
When talk about naval arms race, automatically "Oh allied and Axis. You know USA, Brittain, Italy, Japan, German, Russia.. all the big country involve in war". Then came those that history simply forgotten or simply little few we known about this thing happen.
There are more arms races around the world between purely regional powers than you would expect when you take a closer look. Obvious you start at the Japanese/Russian rivalry pre WW1(and arguably an earlier Baltic nations naval race) but then you move on you have the race in south America, post WW2 and particularly since the 70's you have the naval arms race between India and China/Pakistan, the arms race between Korea, Japan and China since the 80's and most recent today you have a new naval arms race going on in the middle east as nations are competing to have the best Corvette/destroyer fleet.
@@watcherzero5256 about Pakistan, India and China. It still continue to this day with the border and land claiming tension. Chinese soldier still harass India Soldier guarding the patrol especially the border was top of the mountain(they few video of this recorded by Indian Soldier).
I really love your videos! I wish you would do more age of sail content.
Gave me a chuckle or two that video. Nice one :D
All three of these countries during this period also happened to have rifles arguably superior to this of the Allies in WWI. They had PLENTY of money apparently.
Back where it all started for me. I was immediately captivated that someone was actually doing a video on these ships and off my interest went in Drach’s work.
Great imagery and detail!
Great work by Drach, I would highlight an interesting codicil linking to another of his videos - I managed to mention this unusual link between the British navy and those of Chile, Canada and Japan at a lunch with all 4 represented about 15 years ago. Admiral Nimitz helped enable the restoration of the Mikasa as a museum ship at the end of the 1950s - but where might you get any similar-age parts for a British battleship? - having been HMS Canada and then returning to be the Almirante Latorre, she was taken to Japan to be scrapped ..... where bits can still be seen.
Excellent video on a topic I'm into. but knew little about. :)
Rivadavia class 1937/38 Historical Characteristics
- Dimensions: 181.2 × 30.0 meters.
- Displacement: standard 28,000 & full 33,590 long tons.
- Machinery: 3 engines; 18 boilers; 3 shafts.
- Engine power: 54,000 horsepower.
- Fuel: coal 50 & oil 5,470 tons.
- Range: 8,500 @ 10 & 3,930 @ 22.5 nautical miles @ knots.
- Maximum speed: 23.2 knots.
- Aircrafts: ~1 seaplanes.
- Complement: 1,250 people.
- Belt protection: 305-254 + 76 millimeters.
- Deck protection: 38 + 38 + 51-38 + 38 millimeters.
- Main guns: 12 x 305mm/50cs on turrets.
- Secondary guns: 12 x 152mm/50cs on casemates.
- Tertiary guns: 0.
- Torpedo launchers: 2 x 533mm launchers on underwater side mounts.
- Antiaircraft and minor guns: 4 x 47mm/50cs around superstructure, ~4 x 40mm/39 on deck, 7 x 20mm/65cs on superstructure and 5 x 7.65mm around superstructure and deck.
Excellent channel.
fantastic video, very interesting!
Interesting. Thanks for posting.
This was incredibly interesting. I never thought about what the other nations were doing at the time militarily.
Rivadavia class 1914/15 Historical Characteristics
- Dimensions: 181.2 × 30.0 meters.
- Displacement: standard 27,720 & full ~31,650 long tons.
- Machinery: 3 engines; 18 boilers; 3 shafts.
- Engine power: 40,900 horspower.
- Fuel: coal 4,000 & oil 660 long tons.
- Range: 7200 @ 15ks & 10,200 @ 11 nautical miles @ knots.
- Maximum speed: 22.6 knots.
- Complement: 1,215 people.
- Aircrafts: 0 seaplanes.
- Belt protection: 305-254 + 76 millimetres.
- Deck protection: 38 + 38 + 51-38 millimetres.
- Main guns: 12 x 305mm/50cs on turrets.
- Secondary guns: 12 x 152mm/50cs on casemates.
- Tertiary guns: 16 x 102mm/50cs around hull, deck and turrets.
- Torpedo launchers: 2 x 533mm launchers on underwater side mounts.
- Antiaircraft and minor guns: 4 x 47mm/50cs around superstructure and 6 x 7.65mm around superstructure and deck.
Thanks. That was interesting. I was aware of the Canada but thought there were more that were taken over.
The Agincourt was the former Rio de Janeiro.
After it had been sold to Turkey, while still under construction, when WWI started it was taken over by Britain along with a ship they were already building for Turkey which became HMS Erin.
.
Eagle was traded for H class, creating the submarine force in Chile
Had a random thought that the British should have offered all 3 countries several used pre-dreadnought ships from the UK fleet at a discount with the delivery due just before the Dreadnought was put in the water. This would have at a stroke given all 3 the ships they wanted while allowing the British to get rid of some of the fleet they were about to make obsolete. lol
Very interesting. Thank you.
Great review, been interested in South American Dreadnoughts for some time. It was noticeable from Janes 1919 that Brazil, Argentina and Chile prior to WWI were locked into a regional navel arms race or there own.
Great video....👍🏻👌🏻👏🏻
Great vid Drach, I wasn't aware of the US seeking to purchase Latorre after Pearl Harbor. Fascinating.
happy to be the 8000th subcriber. :)
Welcome aboard!
Imagine if the HMS Eagle survived WW2, then Britain decides to go ahead and just hand it off to Chile, maybe with some Swordfish bombers as a "Sorry for taking so long and also not making it what you wanted" topper.
chile dont buy the eagle, instead buy a fleet of submarines and destroyers in a veryyy good deal with the battleship Latorre in 1920, in fact in the SA arm race Chile dont lose money because of that deal
I wish HMS Agincourt, or the ship that ultimately became her, had been covered in a little more detail but a great video, thanks.
There is a robo-voice video specifically on Agincourt, it will be rejoiced to human next week.
*Admiral! One of our battleship has vanished*
There is something wrong with our bloody ships today!
Much the same could be said for the Italians, Austrians, and Russians. They all wanted Battleships to confront specific threats.
Interesting, for a follow up what was the composition of the rest of their navy's, destroyers metal you know the bits that do the actual work
Thank you, fun and interesting.
Am I the only one confused and amazed by who is upstaging whom contest?
REQUEST: CSS Stonewall/Kotetsu
Really good.I worked for Vickers Elswick for quite a number of yearsand after when we transfered along the road to a new works at Scotswood.A really good book is The Big Battleship by Richard Hough,the history of Agincourt (Known as the gin palace due to the sheer size of the wardroom) When it was stopped from being handed over to the Turks troops from Fenham barracks in Newcastle were called out in case of trouble.The only alterations required were the turning over of brass plates on machinery etc as they had been engraved in arabic on one side and English on the other as well as toilet arangements.
In the end it didn't matter much, on account of Chile not fighting any wars during the 20th century. But it strikes me that they really should've just bought back Almirante Cochrane and kept her as an aircraft carrier. That would've given them the prestige of fielding a type of warship that their rivals lacked, after all.
Oh, and IIRC the main reason that Fore River was able to give a lower bid than any of the British shipyards for the Argentine dreadnoughts was that steel prices in America were much lower than in Britain at the time.
It was part of it, but other American shipyards, with similar access to low price steel, also bid but couldn't come close to matching Fore Rivers price.
@@Drachinifel my father worked at Fore river installing boilers and steam equipment aboard ship.jim
People back then did not yet know the value of aircraft carriers. To them, they were just novelties that would support a big gun engagement.
bh5496 - that’s right. I just saw an interesting video on this very topic from the Military Aviation History channel on RUclips.
maybe, but in that time nobody believe to much that the carriers will be so usefull, instead chile dont by the eagle but buy a fleet of modern submarines and destroyers in a very interesting deal, with that and the Latorre had a very powerfull and modern fleet.
In fact, the time Chile had the battleship Latorre in service, no other neighbour countries make any move against Chile.
I didn't know about the Minas Gerais!! Cool!
I'm curious why you indicate that only one South American battleship saw a major fleet action, given that Rio de Janeiro also fought at Jutland as HMS Agincourt? Is it because of the intermediate step of becoming a Turkish ship before, before being taken over by the Royal Navy? Great video by the way though! :)
Yep, Rio was officially Ottoman by the time of seizure and never saw South American waters, where as Canada/Latorre would eventually end up in South American hands.
Hm. Yet by the time of Jutland, neither ship had been in S. American hands or waters. Judgement call, could have gone either way, personally I was a bit surprised you didn't mention Rio de Janeiro/Agincourt as having fought at Jutland. I mean, either it IS a "S. American Dreadnought" (and deserves to be included in the video and therefore included as having fought at Jutland) or it isn't. Apparently you think it is (of course it is!) so I think, yes, judgement was slightly off here, though this is the nittiest of nit-picks :)
I tend to agree - and also Rio de janeiro / Sultan osman / HMS Agincourt really was the best of the bunch in the sense of being simply the same but more so. Can we have a bigger warship please? Yes - we'll add more turrets of the same calibre! Madness!! (albeit madness with the benefit of armament standardisation!).
Just as an aside, the seizure of the Sultan Osman played a large part in Turkey joining the Central Powers.
Oh joy, this is too HILARIOUS 😆😂😂😂😂😂
18:20 The Amnesty was cancelled in less than 48h and the sailors were arrested, expelled from the navy and a number of them were murdered. Some of them were murdered in a cell in the Naval Battalion, and others were deported to the jungle state of Acre, where they would be expected to die from the diseases while performing forced labor; some of them (about 9) were shot and thrown overboard during their transport by ship to "The Green Hell", as Acre was called back then.