My family ran Clevelands in our dirt track cars for years, starting when they first came out. We had already been running the Boss 302s for a couple years, and the 351s would walk off and leave the Boss engines, when we got them figured out. By then, Ford had the Boss 351 out, and we could actually get some parts that would work. We stayed with the Clevelands when they got so hard to find, running every conceivable block and head combo imaginable. We ran hard, and were one of the teams to beat everywhere we went. We took a lot of checkers running basement ported 2V open chamber heads, when it got so hard to find stuff in the mid to late 80s. It's great to see companies coming back around to these engines, and making some excellent parts for them.
I’ve always gathered based on rare magazine article comments from the 80s-early 90s that the 2V heads flowed better than anyone cared to admit, at least for street purposes, though I don’t recall anyone publishing any numbers cause Windsor performance heads were starting to make their way into the market. That’s why there were aftermarket intakes at least for 351C 2V to convert them to 4Vs. I had a 71 Cougar with a 2V motor. I drove it with the 2V carb but added cheap dual exhaust and open element air cleaner with a taller filter. It acted like it wanted to pull up too, park 6k, which wasn’t healthy. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I raced clevelands in the 90's..and was banned by the windsor boys. well, better late than never, people disovering them. I ran the c302b...and the stuff today is just better...and its nice to see. I made around 625hp with a 357inch cleveland.....around 725 with a 398 inch svo.....c302b.... The Aussies are keeping it alive...thanks guys!
I've been running Cleveland's or 460's since 1988. Always thought the windsors were a joke. Running 208 CHI's on a 400 in my work truck. They are awesome. Kaase sells the CHI as a branded head that flows 400 on the intake CNC'd ready to run with matching intake for around $6500. I bought mine bare for $2850. With 5 angle intake on 2.08" valve flowed 316 CFM at .500" You can get these with stock location exhaust or raised .200". Also, the valve angles are the same as Fords 4V so they work with 4V pistons. You can use 4V intakes on these but you may need a spacer depending on your particular combo. A 1/2" thick works on 400 with 2V intakes if you slot the holes and lines up fine as the 2V is almost exactly the same size. CHI has several different manifolds for the short deck 351 blocks.
Great video Eric. Enjoy your work. You should see the flow on my current A3 heads Darin did. We’re talking 396 at .900 and 261 on the exhaust. Made 775 with 409 inches. Small cam and only 13.3 cr. Thanks for the vid
I built a 417ci SVO block engine with as cast 225 CHI's 11yrs ago and made 682hp, just on 700 with race gas and went 9.8xx 136mph @3600lb. Awesome heads
The biggest issue with factory Cleveland heads is how stupid big the ports are. The exhaust is awful and the intake has too much dead space. The 9 1/2° valve angle is still really contemporary it just took 30 years for someone to cast a head with the right size and shape of port
@@timothybayliss6680 yes, for most applications. Which is why most serious racers filled the intakes to suite their rpm/cubic inch combination and raised and straightened the exhaust - pre aluminum era
@@dennisrobinson8008 Totally depends on RPM range and cubic inches. Our 311 inch race engine had big ports AND big duration (285 @ .050). But it's operating range was 8500-9800
Hi Eric. Great video! It was great to see you doing some Cleveland stuff, I'm a proper Cleveland fan. Thank you for the very honest opinion on this head especially from a predominantly Chevy guy!
I`ve got a old set of Ernie Elliot C3 heads that are going on a windsor 427. I believe they`re 1995 era heads from a nascar truck engine and those CHI heads flow 15 to 19 cfm more except at 500 lift where they are the same. I saw those CHI heads at a PRI show in Orlando a few years ago and was impressed.
My folks traded around with the Elliotts forever. We had a building and construction business, and used George Elloitt's building supply for lumber and materials. My uncles all raced the dirt tracks around here, and they ran Clevelands in their cars, getting and trading a ton with the Elliotts and the Ridleys. (Jody and Biddle)
This is the 3rd time I have watched this clip. I just got some CHI 4Vs and go Clevland. That is all Ozzy had for years. Build 'em so they don't blow up, and Bob's your Uncle! The engines with 2v opens but these, these are newish!
Eric, as a product of the 60s, I grew up a GM guy. I've owned Pontiacs, Olds and Chevs all my years. Didn't know what I was missing regarding Clev heads, even owning a 70 Cougar 351C, until many years later. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
GM Australia also had similar port locations on their v8 engine for a while. For the v8 supercar series they were using custom cast factory heads with individual runner intakes. The factory heads went to non mirrored valve layout in 1988 and stayed that way until the Ls series replaced them, in around 1994 it was replaced in the V8 supercar series with 18° nascar style stuff.
They did this to even up the parity. Virtually copied the ford head to suit the chev geometry as porting Siamese made it difficult. Holden also copied the watts link rear end, double wishbone front end and already had the 9 inch final drive. There was a lot more Ford engineering in the Holden than was actual Holden.
@@dinosshed thanks for saving me typing up the same, lol! Just to add, back to back testing revealed the Ford head had a 50HP advantage over the Holden and Chev heads. As you say, the solution to even up the racing was to effectively make Ford heads for the GM guys. Then there was the cutting back of the Ford front undertray by 200mm to nobble the Ford's superior front end grip and the raising up of the Ford front end by 50mm for the same reason. They also forced Ford to adapt the EL aero kits to the new, totally different body shape of the AU Falcon, after Ford Legally made up a new aero kit for the AU which would have made the AU a rocket. After all of that, we have to listen to Holden fans telling us their race cars were better! Unreal.
@georgebeare8883 Yes, I was one of few cheering on the Ford teams at a few meets, as Holden had two types of customers, #1 Bogans and #2 Old Bogans. There was no reasoning with them, as they didn't realise what they were in such love with.
@@dinosshed I hear you mate! Myself and a couple of Ford mates went originally to all of the Victorian rounds of the championship. Winton, Calder, Sandown, Phillip Island, wherever a round was. It was great the first year or two, watching those 4 Falcons out front and a battalion of Commodores holding up the rear. That was before the so-called "Parity" scheme began, code for Slow The Fords Down. Talk about Bogan GM-H fans, I had a number of arguments with them telling us it was the other way around: that the Commodores were being nobbled! FFS! The best example of one of them ( who really should have known better ) happened in the workshop of a well-known drag racing engine builder. A bloke was there supplying his specialty race engine item ( I won't say what because it will identify him ) and the banter was the usual Chev small blocks are king stuff. I pointed out that the Technical Controllers of the touring cars had identified the SBF was producing 50 hp more than either the SBC or Holden V8 and so the Techies were casting up basically Ford heads for the Chevs and calling them "Holden Motorsport Heads" to fix that. Now, here was a bloke making a racing part for some of the Holden teams and he wasn't having any of that nonsense. No way! He said he was going to call a mate at one of the Holden teams and call me out on the spot. He went away in a quiet corner and called GRM. When he came back, he did not say a single word. All went very quiet. LOL. Another time, I was in the queue to get in at Calder. In front of me was John D Davison. I said G'day and we chatted. He said he was queuing and paying to get the regular event goer's experience there to compare to Sandown, the track he was promoter of back then. He was so excited for the next year's racing because Lowndes was joining HRT. He said all of the track owners were. As he put it, the majority of spectators were under 30 and drove Holdens and they didn't want to see a middle-aged bald bloke with a beard and glasses, driving a Ford, winning. That'd be JB, of course, at DJR. The industry wanted a young bloke winning in the factory Holden team car because that was good for business. That tells you all you need to know. It's such a pity that the record books show the results favouring Holden so very much, but do not disclose the reason behind why it was the case. Imagine if in Australia they "fixed" outcomes so much in Aussie Rules or Rugby! There would be blood on the streets. Cheers.
Even stock 2v heads with a decent port job are EXCELLENT street bruiser heads. The heads used on the M series engines are identical to 2V Cleveland heads except that the chambers are around 78cc. They work well in a 400 though & CR between 10 & 11 is easy to do with a flat top piston running 0.007" deck clearance with a 0.040" - 0.045" gasket. The chamber is close to a hemispherical shape with quench pads parallel to the valve guide centerline, making it possible to run 11:1 on pump gas to at least 5500 RPM. I offer this because the heads are pretty easy to find in salvage yards.
As a Ford guy, ford's 2 biggest issues where the shock tower cars they used. The exhaust ports are the way they are because they didn't have room for the engine, good exhaust and the shock tower. And they believed in the all or nothing mind set on engines. Look at the size of ports on all thier hp engines vs the everyday version of the engine.
But, back in the pro stock day the raised exhaust was claimed to offer about a 10 hp advantage. Exhaust exploding out the exhaust valve at such high pressure can 'straighten' the passage to atmosphere. Intake architecture most important which Ford got right in many applications.
Great review of the CHI Cleveland head. They are badazz. Eric I'm the opposite of you, grew up a Ford guy in the 80s. I always felt sorry for the Chevy guys and their 305/350 IROC-Zs....they always lost to my 302 SBF Foxbody.
Excellent review Eric. Good to see the cleveland getting some respect. I’m assuming those were cnc ported by chi. Makes me wish I would have saved for the cnc version. I think my as cast version will support the power level I’m shooting for. I’d love to see this cnc ones in person.
Good review. I have a set arriving today to replace my damaged 4v heads on my 411ci Clevor. I’m hoping for the same numbers out of the box. Strictly track 1/8 mile 4-door LTD full interior stock style suspension runs 5.8 1/8 mile. Hoping to better that with the weight savings.
Good review Eric. The Cleveland has always been more popular here in OZ. I think/guessing those heads will be reasonably priced in the US when you compare the exchange rates. The US $ is whipping the AUS $ at the moment & has been for a while now. Cheers
Serdi or Newen seat cutting machines float the pilot and centrelise it automatically.. not an issue.. his machine works on pilot in guide.. CHI uses Newen CNC to cut seats..
@@WeingartnerRacing 100%, YOU NEED THE EXSPESIVE CARBIDE TUNGSTON PILOTS, IN MANY SIZES TO HAVE PRECICE FIT IN GUIDES, EDELBROCK ARE THE WORST FOR THAT.. FIXED MANY SETS.. YOUR SEAT JOBS LOOK VERY GOOD ERIC, SHOW US MORE OF YOUR MACHINE AND METHODS..
Not basically, they are! Some differences for water etc but those ports and valves are Boss 302. Personally I feel they are way too big for a 302, too big for a 351!
If I send you a set of these brand new, would it be unreasonable to sink a dowel pin into the valve guide and spot face it so you can get the pilot tool in there?
I was thinking what you are thinking. When Eric explained about how on the Cleveland, with the valves having a slight twist compared to the centerline of the chamber and how the air would flow in from the intake port and transition to the exhaust port, the Hemi with it's opposing valve layout would be spectacular!
I will say here in Australia we have the Falcon which is what the Barra is in but the older Falcons also had a Windsor Option Pretty much the Foxbody engine and we had a ute option in the Falcon. I was going to buy a TE-50 AU Falcon ute I nearly had the sale done but I bought a VS Commodore ute instead which I still own. The Falcon AU Tickford ute had the Windsor engine, plan was to buy a DART block and do a Clevor build with these exact heads at 370 cubes.
Grind the potato out of the exhaust port on a stock Windsor head now you're moving air. The reason Ford put that EGR bump in the exhaust port is so they had a place for the tooling to set on when drilling out for the EGR ports.
Hopefully you get to work with some Higgins 2.7 or 3.3 Cleveland heads in the future. They are also Aussie made and in quality alone, blow CHI out of the water.
Love CHI's products - I really REALLY want to build a 400" 9.200(or 8.700 if any are even around these days) deck with one of the versions of these and a turbo or two. Drop it in a square body Ford Ranger drag truck w/ CalTracs, spring-under conversion, and double adjustables front & rear, with a 5-speed behind it(TKX? They're looking pretty beefy, at least a couple drag cars out there putting 1000+HP through them thus far)... yea, I have plans LOL
I'd would go with the 9.5 so you can get a decent length rod in it! Thats .300" more room for a good rod stroke ratio. I like building it one time! The longer intake runners turn some off, but it'll stay together better.
Hi Eric, not sure who told you that is/was a 225 head, but the 225 heads I've seen are definitely not cnc ported, and they don't flow even close to those numbers. Also, 225 heads come with 2.15" valves not 2.19"s . Mcsa is way less than your figures as well. Think someone has set you up there, or CHI have bought out a new head that i don't know about. The CHI Kaase head only has a 2.85 mcsa and flows just over 400cfm at .800 with 2.19 valve on 4.155 bore on my bench.... have to have the right shaped valve though. Chambers on them are in the low 40cc's, so really need to have the right piston, otherwise compression gets way out of control. Very nice head though.
Chi 3v 225 is a 2.19 intake / 1.65 valve. I’m from Aus and have also bought a set of the chi 3v 242 heads, but mine are the 60cc chamber not 45cc like the ones in your video Eric. Great video, love your work.🤘🏻
Man I’d love to find a aftermarket Fontana small block ford engine you talking about making some horsies they where bad ass back in the day had a friend that had one it was built a few years ago of coarse it was nitrous that’s what we all ran then but it made some steam though.
Great vid as always Eric . Your mention of a guide popping out on a Procomp head illustrate why I hate cheap ass offshore heads not heads commissioned offshore by a US head manufacturer ie the AFR heads you showed but how do CHI heads compare to someone like Kaase’s stuff for the Windsor ?
word is chev employed/acquired Ford design staff for the LS. dont no how true but wouldnt surprise me .. and i though the 1969 mustang boss had windsor bottom end running Cleveland heads
Lol that didn’t happen. The people that developed it didn’t copy anything either they took a lot of pride in the ls architecture. There was a car mag article that interviewed the 2 lead design/developers and they addressed that rumor. Not anymore than the Cleveland was copied from the BBC heads or the Mopar Poly Heads. Though the Poly heads are rumored to be what Ford looked to in design, that supposedly from staff that developed it back then. The Cleveland block looks like an Olds V8 though… Timing enclosure and even 12-6 fuel pump holes. It’s a very finite space to fit a 90 v8 block, have similar displacement, fit between 2 shock towers/steering and use ohv cylindef heads that need to exhaust outback the side and under the car. Yes, designs ARE going to look similar especially when you got bean counters looming and deadlines to meet.
I really don't know because not all customers share there dyno results with me. It's worse now because many are doing power adder so they don't build it for max VE NA.
@@WeingartnerRacing thank you for answering. Do you happen to know what out of the box AFR 210cc rr heads are VE? My buddy once had some brodix big block heads extensively ported and flowed and he had 117 VE. He said most stock factory heads were luck to get 85.
@@WeingartnerRacing You made me look at my flow numbers for my Trick Flow cnc heads I got from Total Engine Airflow. Question, what CC are these exhaust ports? Mine are 115cc and my exhaust ports are raised .100" My .400 lift on exhaust is 211.6. .600 lift is 259.6 My .400 lift Intake is 292.3 and .600 lift is 355.5. You are correct, the Cleveland heads are the baddest factory small block head ever.
@@WeingartnerRacing mine were ported and flowed at Total Engine Airflow either by or with Brian Tooley cnc program. These are not the same as calling Summit and ordering from the catalogue. I actually ordered them from Brian over the phone. I'm not sure if he uses an exhaust pipe though. I wish I would have known about you back in 2013 before I had my engine built so we could have tested them at your place.
@@nova467spanker Yep I run the Stage 3 High Ports from TEA and they flow almost as good on the intake side and way better on the exhaust side than these heads.
Would like to get a set of 62cc 205 3V for my 71 400 2V. I have an Eddel 2771dual plane intake and hooker 1-5/8 headers. Whill these heads bolt on with what I have> I know about the spec head gasket and studs
I remember the engine guys on PowerBlock going a ford, Windsor vs Cleveland shoot out and the Windsor won, but it was 427 ci vs the 35? the Cleveland had and it made sooo pissed, cause I’ve read in magazines how good that Cleveland head was. The cid should’ve been the same. Nice to see some nice sbf stuff. I always wished for a clevor when I had my mustang back in the day.
Yeah, that show was a joke. They underbuilt that Cleveland bad, and stroked out the Windsor using aluminum heads and all kinds of stuff. The Cleveland even used iron 2V open port heads.
It takes to a ported out TFS TR head to match the ported out Cleveland, and Cleveland can go a little higher. Cleveland architecture with porting beats out a ton of big name parts. So they have to CHEAT it with windsor stuff to win.
Mostly race organizations change the rules to penalize canted valves to benefit chevy racers which make up 95% of the classes. Inline Windsors benefit. @@dennisrobinson8008
@@WeingartnerRacing it seems to be a Cleveland design for a BBC engine. Shame the design hasn't taken off and trialed some more. Very similar to a profiler.
Even though I bring up cfm a lot the design makes a huge difference. This head would make more power than the high ports. The high ports are still very good.
You do great . Love the content . I have a set of bb5 sonnys ported head i would like to have you flow. And make any suggestions on. H ow do i contact you . I know your busy.
Wath dou jou tink abaut wedge Alu heads Chrysler 440cui.ihave even thes CNC ported. Have only 2.08 intake valves can I get more flow with bigger intake valves? Thes Heads come from super stocker Engine.Best time with thes Heads are 9.25 (Cuda) I have Thes in May Street Challenger 70 have even Wedge Tunnel ram sixpacks modifaid.Roller cam Hyd lift 0.580 (Ratler cam) Mayby k have litel more then The orginal 440 sixpacks 390hp!! Have weery good respons on The trottel better then the Efi.I have plastisk in The intake modifaid raising The intake msuby 6-7 mm..Thes 440 are al forged parts.Spell like hell sorry.Have grate Day..
You know you've just started something now, and you'll be having guys like me asking about doing some stock 2v and 4v heads, hell maybe even do some porting on some 351m/400 heads for us budget Clevor fellers
@@FordRanchero289 shoot man, not my fault lol. I know this because one of my first comments on one of Eric's videos was I wanted to know if he was up to porting my Aussie 2v heads. He said he doesn't port iron heads because it takes to long and teard up to many bits - he is very busy as you can see in his videos - so he looses money porting iron heads. I respect that though, Eric is a great person.
@@nova467spanker Yep, I inquired about porting Windsor Sr.s and got the same response. Can't blame him - you can do 3 sets of aluminum heads in the time it takes to do an iron set.
Dang I knew the Cleveland heads where good just because of the cantive Valve but man the flow numbers wow I am impressed so I am just wondering why no one really talks about the Cleveland motor like there are way less of them and I didn't see no after market Cleveland block so what's going on there
Bob Glidden went undefeated with his Cleveland during the 78 prostock season. This engine has won the engine masters numerous times. Even stock heads flow near 280-300 cfm depending on the bench.
Honestly the biggest problem you have when bringing this engine up is you are usually up against a numb skull Chevy fanboy or LS the world type of person…..and anything you try and inform them on they just don’t listen or even want too…. those two engines are all that should exist yadayada… no offense to the both eyes open Chevy/car guys. As fare as factory iron head castings go the Cleveland was on top… those particular one eyed Chevy guys really don’t like to hear that.. people who build this engine are more likely to be over in their corner keeping to themselves avoiding the sh!! Slinging that happens 😅 especially on the dam internet lol.
Cleveland heads,,, 4Vs are so bloody big they get no velocity, the reason people have closed them down for decades. Not so bad if you turn 9000 rpm,, and that is drag race only and the Clevo explodes over 7000! Poorly oiled, cooling is poor and they are heavy. You can modoify the oiling to be ok but then the crank dia is too big so frys the oil. The M engine is worse with 3" mains. I own both!! 363 is 4 1/8 bore 3.4 stroke. Aftermarket block only. The 8.2 Windsor is a tiny little thing,, rod length is severely limited but it does have better oiling and the bearings are not near as big. Cooling is ,,, well ok. Still only has 4 bolts per cylinder head clamping so will never be a Chev. Factory blocks are only 2 bolt. Need a stud girdle for performance use. My experience is that the later 5 litre blocks are better metalurgy. And they use the Clevo firing order which is far better. The CHI heads take the best of the Clevo design and make it work. Raised intakes, canted valves, far better chamber and ofcourse being alloy make them about 100% better than the OEM head. They come in 3 base versions, 185cc, 208cc and 225cc. They can be made to go on Windsors as well but the Winsors off the shelf are only 185cc. My 208s will need the intakes ported The Aussie 302 2V head is by far the best head for street use and even then the ports really are too big!! Same size to the manifold as a Chev medium raceport.
I’ve been playing with Cleveland’s for 25 years and rev them to 8000 and in some cases 9400 and have no oil or cooling issues. Yes that’s after fixing the oiling issues but no big deal. And these are mostly street engines
@@too51kracing81 Hmmm, not for road race or speedway use using moderatly high rpm consistently. Here in Oz we had them for many years after the Yanks. Were a potential explosion at all times. Drag racing is only a few seconds. Street use and 9400? I dont think so! I know drag racers using 9000 which very highly modded engines in the 70s. They won or broke!
BBC, SBC dominate bracket racing, then you have the trickle down effect from P/S and NASCAR. If this head (CHI) would had come out in the 70s we might be seeing a different outcome, then again Smokey Yunick had the SBC porcupine heads so maybe that would have came out of the stove pipe in the early days to compete with the Clevor. Chevrolet engine popularity and the fact that the little guy could drag race and run stock car might have been the tipping point for Chevrolet. Chevy got out ahead of the other manufacturers is all I’m saying, the ppl grasped the BBC, SBC, LS, Warren Johnson and the DRCE.
@@WeingartnerRacing I respect what you are doing you’re living the dream. In the end they all have their places and are air pumps with corporate names attached to them. But Jesus does a BBC sound awesome cammed roaming the pits or at full song. Thank you and keep on doing what you do, I like the fact that you stick to your guns and tell ppl what they don’t want to hear. Thank you.
So what we do is get a 351w block with performance upgrades and and big mains throw a Cleland crank and heads on the use a 4.125 bore and 4.65 stroke and you get the ford 454
I can’t for the life of me understand why Ford would just abandon an engine program instead of developing and refining it… they had so many platforms with great attributes in them but usually major flaws too.
Flow numbers are a tool. It gives you some information about the heads. The information can be useful to improving et. In many cases gaining flow does gain et but it’s definitely not an absolute.
Thanks for acknowledging that us Aussies do get thing right from time to time 🇦🇺
Certainly
I'm a ford man but watch all your videos .Was thrilled to see you do this one .Thanks
Thanks for watching the none Ford videos. You can learn different things from the different engine families.
My family ran Clevelands in our dirt track cars for years, starting when they first came out. We had already been running the Boss 302s for a couple years, and the 351s would walk off and leave the Boss engines, when we got them figured out. By then, Ford had the Boss 351 out, and we could actually get some parts that would work. We stayed with the Clevelands when they got so hard to find, running every conceivable block and head combo imaginable. We ran hard, and were one of the teams to beat everywhere we went. We took a lot of checkers running basement ported 2V open chamber heads, when it got so hard to find stuff in the mid to late 80s. It's great to see companies coming back around to these engines, and making some excellent parts for them.
I'm glad to know they worked well for you. I like the heads but I know next to nothing about there shortblocks.
I still have 2 stock bore short blocks sitting in my shop along with a pair of CJ heads.
I’ve always gathered based on rare magazine article comments from the 80s-early 90s that the 2V heads flowed better than anyone cared to admit, at least for street purposes, though I don’t recall anyone publishing any numbers cause Windsor performance heads were starting to make their way into the market. That’s why there were aftermarket intakes at least for 351C 2V to convert them to 4Vs. I had a 71 Cougar with a 2V motor. I drove it with the 2V carb but added cheap dual exhaust and open element air cleaner with a taller filter. It acted like it wanted to pull up too, park 6k, which wasn’t healthy. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I raced clevelands in the 90's..and was banned by the windsor boys.
well, better late than never, people disovering them. I ran the c302b...and the stuff today is just better...and its nice to see.
I made around 625hp with a 357inch cleveland.....around 725 with a 398 inch svo.....c302b....
The Aussies are keeping it alive...thanks guys!
I've been running Cleveland's or 460's since 1988. Always thought the windsors were a joke. Running 208 CHI's on a 400 in my work truck. They are awesome. Kaase sells the CHI as a branded head that flows 400 on the intake CNC'd ready to run with matching intake for around $6500. I bought mine bare for $2850. With 5 angle intake on 2.08" valve flowed 316 CFM at .500"
You can get these with stock location exhaust or raised .200".
Also, the valve angles are the same as Fords 4V so they work with 4V pistons. You can use 4V intakes on these but you may need a spacer depending on your particular combo. A 1/2" thick works on 400 with 2V intakes if you slot the holes and lines up fine as the 2V is almost exactly the same size. CHI has several different manifolds for the short deck 351 blocks.
I am happy you like my 208 CHI heads, good to see people know a great head when they see them. Dave S
I love my 427w.
Stroked canmed fuel injected Windsors are no joke moron. AFR 220 headed 438windsor on e85 street car is nuts fast in a 3k lb 68 Mustang.
Great video Eric. Enjoy your work. You should see the flow on my current A3 heads Darin did. We’re talking 396 at .900 and 261 on the exhaust. Made 775 with 409 inches. Small cam and only 13.3 cr. Thanks for the vid
Thanks for watching. Darrin does great work.
@@WeingartnerRacing your do too Eric. Thanks
I built a 417ci SVO block engine with as cast 225 CHI's 11yrs ago and made 682hp, just on 700 with race gas and went 9.8xx 136mph @3600lb. Awesome heads
I am currently building a 420 cube Clevor using an aluminum Fontana block. Can’t wait to see what it churns out with these heads on it.
@@sparksandgritgarage555 you using them out of the box or a bit of porting? My cam was 269/282 727/727 106lsa.1050 Dominator and 2in pipes
@Jody Baldwin definitely will be doing some porting. Thanks for the info. I’ll put it to good use. What intake did you use?
@@sparksandgritgarage555 CHI Dominator unported, I think the new ones are better than what I used at the time.
@@jodybaldwin4864 Right on! Thanks again.
The Cleveland architecture still has not been surpassed. It still has as much or more potential as anything after all this time
The biggest issue with factory Cleveland heads is how stupid big the ports are. The exhaust is awful and the intake has too much dead space. The 9 1/2° valve angle is still really contemporary it just took 30 years for someone to cast a head with the right size and shape of port
@@timothybayliss6680 yes, for most applications. Which is why most serious racers filled the intakes to suite their rpm/cubic inch combination and raised and straightened the exhaust - pre aluminum era
You have to go all the way to TFS-R or better to match it. They were serious pieces and I see why they were banned.
@@timothybayliss6680 Clevleand and other big heads are fine if you reduce the camshaft duration.
@@dennisrobinson8008 Totally depends on RPM range and cubic inches. Our 311 inch race engine had big ports AND big duration (285 @ .050). But it's operating range was 8500-9800
Awesome! Someone finally showing the Cleveland head some love! Thank you.
In my opinion a 351 boss is the pinnacle of the old small blocks
The 1971 Cleveland was the most powerful small block of the time
That's why it was banned. The heads were about 50 cfm over the chevy and chryslers that it was competing against.
Hi Eric. Great video! It was great to see you doing some Cleveland stuff, I'm a proper Cleveland fan. Thank you for the very honest opinion on this head especially from a predominantly Chevy guy!
I`ve got a old set of Ernie Elliot C3 heads that are going on a windsor 427. I believe they`re 1995 era heads from a nascar truck engine and those CHI heads flow 15 to 19 cfm more except at 500 lift where they are the same. I saw those CHI heads at a PRI show in Orlando a few years ago and was impressed.
My folks traded around with the Elliotts forever. We had a building and construction business, and used George Elloitt's building supply for lumber and materials. My uncles all raced the dirt tracks around here, and they ran Clevelands in their cars, getting and trading a ton with the Elliotts and the Ridleys. (Jody and Biddle)
Its awesome to hear tou say that about ford heads! I always knew they where a step above, nice to hear someone with your expertise say it!
Very indepth and informative, great. From 2 Brit car owner with tuned Clevelands in them in the UK.
This is the 3rd time I have watched this clip. I just got some CHI 4Vs and go Clevland. That is all Ozzy had for years. Build 'em so they don't blow up, and Bob's your Uncle! The engines with 2v opens but these, these are newish!
Eric, as a product of the 60s, I grew up a GM guy. I've owned Pontiacs, Olds and Chevs all my years. Didn't know what I was missing regarding Clev heads, even owning a 70 Cougar 351C, until many years later. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Happy you saw the light. LOL
I have been a Ford guy my whole life.
GM Australia also had similar port locations on their v8 engine for a while. For the v8 supercar series they were using custom cast factory heads with individual runner intakes. The factory heads went to non mirrored valve layout in 1988 and stayed that way until the Ls series replaced them, in around 1994 it was replaced in the V8 supercar series with 18° nascar style stuff.
They did this to even up the parity. Virtually copied the ford head to suit the chev geometry as porting Siamese made it difficult. Holden also copied the watts link rear end, double wishbone front end and already had the 9 inch final drive. There was a lot more Ford engineering in the Holden than was actual Holden.
@@dinosshed thanks for saving me typing up the same, lol! Just to add, back to back testing revealed the Ford head had a 50HP advantage over the Holden and Chev heads. As you say, the solution to even up the racing was to effectively make Ford heads for the GM guys. Then there was the cutting back of the Ford front undertray by 200mm to nobble the Ford's superior front end grip and the raising up of the Ford front end by 50mm for the same reason. They also forced Ford to adapt the EL aero kits to the new, totally different body shape of the AU Falcon, after Ford Legally made up a new aero kit for the AU which would have made the AU a rocket. After all of that, we have to listen to Holden fans telling us their race cars were better! Unreal.
@georgebeare8883 Yes, I was one of few cheering on the Ford teams at a few meets, as Holden had two types of customers, #1 Bogans and #2 Old Bogans. There was no reasoning with them, as they didn't realise what they were in such love with.
@@dinosshed I hear you mate! Myself and a couple of Ford mates went originally to all of the Victorian rounds of the championship. Winton, Calder, Sandown, Phillip Island, wherever a round was. It was great the first year or two, watching those 4 Falcons out front and a battalion of Commodores holding up the rear.
That was before the so-called "Parity" scheme began, code for Slow The Fords Down.
Talk about Bogan GM-H fans, I had a number of arguments with them telling us it was the other way around: that the Commodores were being nobbled! FFS!
The best example of one of them ( who really should have known better ) happened in the workshop of a well-known drag racing engine builder. A bloke was there supplying his specialty race engine item ( I won't say what because it will identify him ) and the banter was the usual Chev small blocks are king stuff.
I pointed out that the Technical Controllers of the touring cars had identified the SBF was producing 50 hp more than either the SBC or Holden V8 and so the Techies were casting up basically Ford heads for the Chevs and calling them "Holden Motorsport Heads" to fix that.
Now, here was a bloke making a racing part for some of the Holden teams and he wasn't having any of that nonsense. No way!
He said he was going to call a mate at one of the Holden teams and call me out on the spot. He went away in a quiet corner and called GRM. When he came back, he did not say a single word. All went very quiet. LOL.
Another time, I was in the queue to get in at Calder. In front of me was John D Davison. I said G'day and we chatted. He said he was queuing and paying to get the regular event goer's experience there to compare to Sandown, the track he was promoter of back then.
He was so excited for the next year's racing because Lowndes was joining HRT. He said all of the track owners were. As he put it, the majority of spectators were under 30 and drove Holdens and they didn't want to see a middle-aged bald bloke with a beard and glasses, driving a Ford, winning. That'd be JB, of course, at DJR.
The industry wanted a young bloke winning in the factory Holden team car because that was good for business. That tells you all you need to know.
It's such a pity that the record books show the results favouring Holden so very much, but do not disclose the reason behind why it was the case. Imagine if in Australia they "fixed" outcomes so much in Aussie Rules or Rugby! There would be blood on the streets. Cheers.
Even stock 2v heads with a decent port job are EXCELLENT street bruiser heads. The heads used on the M series engines are identical to 2V Cleveland heads except that the chambers are around 78cc. They work well in a 400 though & CR between 10 & 11 is easy to do with a flat top piston running 0.007" deck clearance with a 0.040" - 0.045" gasket. The chamber is close to a hemispherical shape with quench pads parallel to the valve guide centerline, making it possible to run 11:1 on pump gas to at least 5500 RPM. I offer this because the heads are pretty easy to find in salvage yards.
That should help the Ford guys.
As a Ford guy, ford's 2 biggest issues where the shock tower cars they used. The exhaust ports are the way they are because they didn't have room for the engine, good exhaust and the shock tower. And they believed in the all or nothing mind set on engines. Look at the size of ports on all thier hp engines vs the everyday version of the engine.
But, back in the pro stock day the raised exhaust was claimed to offer about a 10 hp advantage. Exhaust exploding out the exhaust valve at such high pressure can 'straighten' the passage to atmosphere. Intake architecture most important which Ford got right in many applications.
Great review of the CHI Cleveland head.
They are badazz.
Eric
I'm the opposite of you,
grew up a Ford guy in the 80s.
I always felt sorry for the Chevy guys and their 305/350 IROC-Zs....they always lost to my 302 SBF Foxbody.
Excellent review Eric. Good to see the cleveland getting some respect. I’m assuming those were cnc ported by chi. Makes me wish I would have saved for the cnc version. I think my as cast version will support the power level I’m shooting for. I’d love to see this cnc ones in person.
Swing by and see them I should have them until the end of the week.
Good review. I have a set arriving today to replace my damaged 4v heads on my 411ci Clevor. I’m hoping for the same numbers out of the box. Strictly track 1/8 mile 4-door LTD full interior stock style suspension runs 5.8 1/8 mile. Hoping to better that with the weight savings.
In Australia, we have seen stock 2V open or close chambers make 450 hp with just a cleanup,
I've heard of and seen 400 hp on a 400 with just cleanup in the Port not even gasket matched or anything super crazy
@@jonathanabeld2326 Cool. I think the 335 series will make a comeback
Ford Australia used the Clevo longer than Ford USA. This is why CHI make Clevo heads, they also make a 265 Hemi head whic is Chrysler Australia again.
There are some CHI combos over 1000 HP N/A
Pro Max offers a Cleveland head, I would love to see you do a cnc program for them. I would say it would make BIG POWER!
I would like to see some stuff about gurney westlake & the 68 tunnel port stuff.
Good review Eric. The Cleveland has always been more popular here in OZ. I think/guessing those heads will be reasonably priced in the US when you compare the exchange rates. The US $ is whipping the AUS $ at the moment & has been for a while now.
Cheers
Like you said, that is an amazing port shape.
Wish I coul find more info on the rocker /pedestal/pushrod relation with the valves being canted
with the valve guides, you can put new guides in do the valve job then mill them down flat.
Serdi or Newen seat cutting machines float the pilot and centrelise it automatically.. not an issue.. his machine works on pilot in guide.. CHI uses Newen CNC to cut seats..
That is correct but I don’t think anyone in my state has a newen at 120k. I have seen my fair share of out of round valve jobs from serdi.
@@WeingartnerRacing 100%, YOU NEED THE EXSPESIVE CARBIDE TUNGSTON PILOTS, IN MANY SIZES TO HAVE PRECICE FIT IN GUIDES, EDELBROCK ARE THE WORST FOR THAT.. FIXED MANY SETS.. YOUR SEAT JOBS LOOK VERY GOOD ERIC, SHOW US MORE OF YOUR MACHINE AND METHODS..
The Boss 302 is basically a cleveland head on a windsor bottom end
Not basically, they are! Some differences for water etc but those ports and valves are Boss 302. Personally I feel they are way too big for a 302, too big for a 351!
Back in the 70s they used to mill the exhaust side of the head off because of that exhaust port
That's called the "Raised port", or "High port" head. Bob Glidden had a big hand in developing the plates for that.
Bob Glidden knew how good they were.
Yep
If I send you a set of these brand new, would it be unreasonable to sink a dowel pin into the valve guide and spot face it so you can get the pilot tool in there?
Dandy Engines Bennett race heads and Pavtek make some big power in Australia with Clevo based Engines worth a look cheers Mick Australia.
They have cool videos.
Would love to see more on the Cleveland heads and maybe you can find some more magic hiding in rhem
Have you done any gen III hemi heads yet? I would be I terested to see what you could do with with set of the 2016 and newer 6.4 bge heads.
No. I got the flow plate to flow them then nobody sent one in.
I was thinking what you are thinking. When Eric explained about how on the Cleveland, with the valves having a slight twist compared to the centerline of the chamber and how the air would flow in from the intake port and transition to the exhaust port, the Hemi with it's opposing valve layout would be spectacular!
Supposedly Apache heads can go over 400cfm with a 2.14-2.20 intake valve.
@@WeingartnerRacing I have a some if you want to give it a whirl say the word and I’ll send them in
@@fustyblatherskite2142 This is how TFS TW heads were dominant...
Be cool if you could flow some blue thunder Cleveland heads. They were really good.
When you flow tested the head , did you put a j tube in the port to check velocities? If so what did you find over all ?
I will say here in Australia we have the Falcon which is what the Barra is in but the older Falcons also had a Windsor Option Pretty much the Foxbody engine and we had a ute option in the Falcon. I was going to buy a TE-50 AU Falcon ute I nearly had the sale done but I bought a VS Commodore ute instead which I still own. The Falcon AU Tickford ute had the Windsor engine, plan was to buy a DART block and do a Clevor build with these exact heads at 370 cubes.
Grind the potato out of the exhaust port on a stock Windsor head now you're moving air. The reason Ford put that EGR bump in the exhaust port is so they had a place for the tooling to set on when drilling out for the EGR ports.
Hopefully you get to work with some Higgins 2.7 or 3.3 Cleveland heads in the future. They are also Aussie made and in quality alone, blow CHI out of the water.
I am a chevy guy too the Cleveland heads are canted valves those are so.e bad boys lol to get the same head in a sbc probably 10 to 12 grand
Love CHI's products - I really REALLY want to build a 400" 9.200(or 8.700 if any are even around these days) deck with one of the versions of these and a turbo or two. Drop it in a square body Ford Ranger drag truck w/ CalTracs, spring-under conversion, and double adjustables front & rear, with a 5-speed behind it(TKX? They're looking pretty beefy, at least a couple drag cars out there putting 1000+HP through them thus far)... yea, I have plans LOL
I'd would go with the 9.5 so you can get a decent length rod in it! Thats .300" more room for a good rod stroke ratio. I like building it one time! The longer intake runners turn some off, but it'll stay together better.
#Eric Weingartner You said you did a set of these heads for EMC. Have you ever played with a factory set?
Hi Eric, not sure who told you that
is/was a 225 head, but the 225 heads I've seen are definitely not cnc ported, and they don't flow even close to those numbers. Also, 225 heads come with 2.15" valves not 2.19"s .
Mcsa is way less than your figures as well. Think someone has set you up there, or CHI have bought out a new head that i don't know about.
The CHI Kaase head only has a 2.85 mcsa and flows just over 400cfm at .800 with 2.19 valve on 4.155 bore on my bench.... have to have the right shaped valve though. Chambers on them are in the low 40cc's, so really need to have the right piston, otherwise compression gets way out of control. Very nice head though.
Yeah I messed up it’s there 242cc. I tried looking on there website buts it’s weird now.
Chi 3v 225 is a 2.19 intake / 1.65 valve. I’m from Aus and have also bought a set of the chi 3v 242 heads, but mine are the 60cc chamber not 45cc like the ones in your video Eric. Great video, love your work.🤘🏻
When GM guys ragged on Ford and then asked what those heads with that massive intake valve was from. Cleveland mate, they're a Ford Item.
Man I’d love to find a aftermarket Fontana small block ford engine you talking about making some horsies they where bad ass back in the day had a friend that had one it was built a few years ago of coarse it was nitrous that’s what we all ran then but it made some steam though.
id suspect you could ask for none cnc valve guides from CHI.. i doubt its a big issue for them.. all you can do is ask next set i guess
So aftermarket headers work with those heads?switching between stock maniflods?
Great vid as always Eric . Your mention of a guide popping out on a Procomp head illustrate why I hate cheap ass offshore heads not heads commissioned offshore by a US head manufacturer ie the AFR heads you showed but how do CHI heads compare to someone like Kaase’s stuff for the Windsor ?
Kaase has a CHI cleveland head that is real good but I have never personally seen the windsor head of his.
word is chev employed/acquired Ford design staff for the LS. dont no how true but wouldnt surprise me .. and i though the 1969 mustang boss had windsor bottom end running Cleveland heads
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Boss_302_engine
Lol that didn’t happen. The people that developed it didn’t copy anything either they took a lot of pride in the ls architecture. There was a car mag article that interviewed the 2 lead design/developers and they addressed that rumor. Not anymore than the Cleveland was copied from the BBC heads or the Mopar Poly Heads. Though the Poly heads are rumored to be what Ford looked to in design, that supposedly from staff that developed it back then. The Cleveland block looks like an Olds V8 though… Timing enclosure and even 12-6 fuel pump holes.
It’s a very finite space to fit a 90 v8 block, have similar displacement, fit between 2 shock towers/steering and use ohv cylindef heads that need to exhaust outback the side and under the car. Yes, designs ARE going to look similar especially when you got bean counters looming and deadlines to meet.
What's the highest volumetric efficiency you've seen of any factory head and also any ported head?
I really don't know because not all customers share there dyno results with me. It's worse now because many are doing power adder so they don't build it for max VE NA.
@@WeingartnerRacing thank you for answering. Do you happen to know what out of the box AFR 210cc rr heads are VE? My buddy once had some brodix big block heads extensively ported and flowed and he had 117 VE. He said most stock factory heads were luck to get 85.
Top Video Eric !!!! Who's CNC programe is on that head?? That would show better numbers on the Superflow bench wouldn't it ?
On my superflow bench it would read about 8cfm better.
@@WeingartnerRacing You made me look at my flow numbers for my Trick Flow cnc heads I got from Total Engine Airflow. Question, what CC are these exhaust ports? Mine are 115cc and my exhaust ports are raised .100" My .400 lift on exhaust is 211.6. .600 lift is 259.6 My .400 lift Intake is 292.3 and .600 lift is 355.5. You are correct, the Cleveland heads are the baddest factory small block head ever.
@@nova467spanker I flowed without you exhaust pipe trick flow usually flows with the pipe. It bumps up the flow numbers.
@@WeingartnerRacing mine were ported and flowed at Total Engine Airflow either by or with Brian Tooley cnc program. These are not the same as calling Summit and ordering from the catalogue. I actually ordered them from Brian over the phone. I'm not sure if he uses an exhaust pipe though. I wish I would have known about you back in 2013 before I had my engine built so we could have tested them at your place.
@@nova467spanker Yep I run the Stage 3 High Ports from TEA and they flow almost as good on the intake side and way better on the exhaust side than these heads.
Would like to get a set of 62cc 205 3V for my 71 400 2V. I have an Eddel 2771dual plane intake and hooker 1-5/8 headers. Whill these heads bolt on with what I have> I know about the spec head gasket and studs
You have a previous video with an as cast CHI 225cc head. Did you flow that one?
Yes. I did it’s in a video somewhere
I’ve been 9.54 at 3050 with an as cast 218 head that flowed 331 at .7 and went backwards 2.66 cross section
What did your car make at the wheel and what transmission and cam specs and compression?
Is the Cleveland head better than a Hemi ? Bobby Glidden thought so.. And yes he too worked on the exhaust ports
In certain situations the hemi is better.
@@WeingartnerRacing Correctamundo ✔️
That head design was from 1969 😜. Granted those heads have updates to the 351C 4v.
Interesting.. Any ideas of why the exhaust doesn't flow? And would the heat of the exhaust gas affect the flow?
The height of the exhaust port is causing the low numbers. Its a design thing. They do have a raised exhaust port version that is very good.
Eric Weingartner, could the pushrod pinch be causing the instability? Doing the math, it seems to be the smallest part of the port.
No. Its a few minor things in the short side.
@@WeingartnerRacing did you figure that out by using the pitot tube or is it just experience?
Have you messed with the tall deck 400's? Alot of 351c parts go inside.
I haven't built any of those engines.
and CHI make some mad manifolds too
I remember the engine guys on PowerBlock going a ford, Windsor vs Cleveland shoot out and the Windsor won, but it was 427 ci vs the 35? the Cleveland had and it made sooo pissed, cause I’ve read in magazines how good that Cleveland head was. The cid should’ve been the same. Nice to see some nice sbf stuff. I always wished for a clevor when I had my mustang back in the day.
Yeah, that show was a joke. They underbuilt that Cleveland bad, and stroked out the Windsor using aluminum heads and all kinds of stuff. The Cleveland even used iron 2V open port heads.
@@elmerfudpucker3204 that’s what I was thinking they did.
It takes to a ported out TFS TR head to match the ported out Cleveland, and Cleveland can go a little higher. Cleveland architecture with porting beats out a ton of big name parts. So they have to CHEAT it with windsor stuff to win.
Mostly race organizations change the rules to penalize canted valves to benefit chevy racers which make up 95% of the classes. Inline Windsors benefit. @@dennisrobinson8008
11.30... Newen and Serdi... not an issue,
Hey Eric, could you flow a head that loses flow at higher lift numbers at 28*, and then do the same head at a higher vacuum and see the difference?
I will try when that situation comes up again.
Race Flow Development has some decent 🤣canted valve heads.
Hi Eric. Ty for the video.
Thanks for watching. Someday I will get rich from this.
Now i see whenever the cleveland heads are brought into the picture it's a serious matter....
Try some SC1 SBF heads. They flow 470 cfm
It takes this much to start looking past cleveland. MBC has a head that does 500cfm on SBF.
Any chance of testing the CHI BBC head? Cant find any decent figures on these. I've emailed CHI but no replies.
I doubt it. There are no customers begging for that head.
@@WeingartnerRacing it seems to be a Cleveland design for a BBC engine. Shame the design hasn't taken off and trialed some more. Very similar to a profiler.
I think Smokey said you treat a small block Ford like a big block chevy.
They are somewhat similar.
Wouldn't a small end mill just the guide work?
Its not an issue until you have to work on the head.
Can I install these Cleveland Heads on my 360 Magnum 5.9l Dodge Van..??..
Yep!
I run a set of CNC'd Trick Flow High Ports that flow almost as good on the intake side and way better on the exhaust side for way less $$$.
Even though I bring up cfm a lot the design makes a huge difference. This head would make more power than the high ports. The high ports are still very good.
yes 225's I have those
You do great . Love the content . I have a set of bb5 sonnys ported head i would like to have you flow. And make any suggestions on. H ow do i contact you . I know your busy.
You can email me at weingartnerracing@gmail.com
That head should fit on a ls i do believe !!! Guys put ls heads on windsors and guys put Those on windsors too so.......
I was thinking the same thing. It would be a neat project.
I wonder how these heads will work with a turbo clevor or 351..as long as it's not a LS I don't care lol
These heads are going on a turbo 363sbf.
@@WeingartnerRacing that's so cool please keep us posted on the progress and how much power he's gunning for
@@WeingartnerRacing that seems like a huge head for a 363 sb ford
Have you done any 6.4 hemi heads
Not yet. I have the fixtures to flow them but nobody has sent any in yet.
Wath dou jou tink abaut wedge Alu heads Chrysler 440cui.ihave even thes CNC ported. Have only 2.08 intake valves can I get more flow with bigger intake valves? Thes Heads come from super stocker Engine.Best time with thes Heads are 9.25 (Cuda) I have Thes in May Street Challenger 70 have even Wedge Tunnel ram sixpacks modifaid.Roller cam Hyd lift 0.580 (Ratler cam) Mayby k have litel more then The orginal 440 sixpacks 390hp!! Have weery good respons on The trottel better then the Efi.I have plastisk in The intake modifaid raising The intake msuby 6-7 mm..Thes 440 are al forged parts.Spell like hell sorry.Have grate Day..
I would do bigger valves because it needs the area.
Great video, thank you !!
Thanks for watching it helps the channel grow.
You know you've just started something now, and you'll be having guys like me asking about doing some stock 2v and 4v heads, hell maybe even do some porting on some 351m/400 heads for us budget Clevor fellers
Just so you know, Eric does not port IRON heads. He will flow them for you though.
@@nova467spanker lame
@@FordRanchero289 shoot man, not my fault lol.
I know this because one of my first comments on one of Eric's videos was I wanted to know if he was up to porting my Aussie 2v heads. He said he doesn't port iron heads because it takes to long and teard up to many bits - he is very busy as you can see in his videos - so he looses money porting iron heads. I respect that though, Eric is a great person.
@@nova467spanker Yep, I inquired about porting Windsor Sr.s and got the same response. Can't blame him - you can do 3 sets of aluminum heads in the time it takes to do an iron set.
Dang I knew the Cleveland heads where good just because of the cantive Valve but man the flow numbers wow I am impressed so I am just wondering why no one really talks about the Cleveland motor like there are way less of them and I didn't see no after market Cleveland block so what's going on there
There is an aftermarket Cleveland block. Arrow do them. Cleveland's are still quite big in Australia
@@brettwarren3429 got it thank you for telling me
Bob Glidden went undefeated with his Cleveland during the 78 prostock season. This engine has won the engine masters numerous times. Even stock heads flow near 280-300 cfm depending on the bench.
TMeyer is now making cleveland blocks and has stuff for the 400 ford (long stroke truck motor basically) that takes it from slug to cerified ripper.
Honestly the biggest problem you have when bringing this engine up is you are usually up against a numb skull Chevy fanboy or LS the world type of person…..and anything you try and inform them on they just don’t listen or even want too…. those two engines are all that should exist yadayada… no offense to the both eyes open Chevy/car guys.
As fare as factory iron head castings go the Cleveland was on top… those particular one eyed Chevy guys really don’t like to hear that.. people who build this engine are more likely to be over in their corner keeping to themselves avoiding the sh!! Slinging that happens 😅 especially on the dam internet lol.
I have the kasse sbf heads, awesome
Thanks for watching.
I thought the Cleveland engine was a big block not a sbf
Cleveland heads,,, 4Vs are so bloody big they get no velocity, the reason people have closed them down for decades. Not so bad if you turn 9000 rpm,, and that is drag race only and the Clevo explodes over 7000! Poorly oiled, cooling is poor and they are heavy. You can modoify the oiling to be ok but then the crank dia is too big so frys the oil. The M engine is worse with 3" mains. I own both!!
363 is 4 1/8 bore 3.4 stroke. Aftermarket block only.
The 8.2 Windsor is a tiny little thing,, rod length is severely limited but it does have better oiling and the bearings are not near as big. Cooling is ,,, well ok. Still only has 4 bolts per cylinder head clamping so will never be a Chev.
Factory blocks are only 2 bolt. Need a stud girdle for performance use. My experience is that the later 5 litre blocks are better metalurgy. And they use the Clevo firing order which is far better.
The CHI heads take the best of the Clevo design and make it work. Raised intakes, canted valves, far better chamber and ofcourse being alloy make them about 100% better than the OEM head. They come in 3 base versions, 185cc, 208cc and 225cc. They can be made to go on Windsors as well but the Winsors off the shelf are only 185cc. My 208s will need the intakes ported
The Aussie 302 2V head is by far the best head for street use and even then the ports really are too big!! Same size to the manifold as a Chev medium raceport.
I’ve been playing with Cleveland’s for 25 years and rev them to 8000 and in some cases 9400 and have no oil or cooling issues. Yes that’s after fixing the oiling issues but no big deal. And these are mostly street engines
Decrease cam duration on a street car with these heads.
@@too51kracing81 Hmmm, not for road race or speedway use using moderatly high rpm consistently. Here in Oz we had them for many years after the Yanks. Were a potential explosion at all times. Drag racing is only a few seconds. Street use and 9400? I dont think so!
I know drag racers using 9000 which very highly modded engines in the 70s. They won or broke!
Awesome
Your report says 2014 but printed on the 16/2022You’ve been holding out on the ford crowd.
No. I flowed it yesterday. I keep overriding my start file that started in 2014
BBC, SBC dominate bracket racing, then you have the trickle down effect from P/S and NASCAR. If this head (CHI) would had come out in the 70s we might be seeing a different outcome, then again Smokey Yunick had the SBC porcupine heads so maybe that would have came out of the stove pipe in the early days to compete with the Clevor. Chevrolet engine popularity and the fact that the little guy could drag race and run stock car might have been the tipping point for Chevrolet. Chevy got out ahead of the other manufacturers is all I’m saying, the ppl grasped the BBC, SBC, LS, Warren Johnson and the DRCE.
I agree Ford was there own worst enemy changing engines designs regularly.
@@WeingartnerRacing I respect what you are doing you’re living the dream. In the end they all have their places and are air pumps with corporate names attached to them. But Jesus does a BBC sound awesome cammed roaming the pits or at full song. Thank you and keep on doing what you do, I like the fact that you stick to your guns and tell ppl what they don’t want to hear. Thank you.
The Cleveland makes more power per cubic inch than any other engine, oem n/a its not even close.
Cleavlonds are great but Windsors are 100x more abundant cheaper and bigger and more durable
So what we do is get a 351w block with performance upgrades and and big mains throw a Cleland crank and heads on the use a 4.125 bore and 4.65 stroke and you get the ford 454
I can’t for the life of me understand why Ford would just abandon an engine program instead of developing and refining it… they had so many platforms with great attributes in them but usually major flaws too.
I hate that too. The reason why small block and LS took off because they were around for so long.
Lee Iacocca got control and we got Mustang 2, well, and then Chrysler got front drive K-car absolute crap.
Must be too soon I can't hear anything
Flow numbers dont = good ET
Flow numbers are a tool. It gives you some information about the heads. The information can be useful to improving et. In many cases gaining flow does gain et but it’s definitely not an absolute.
@@WeingartnerRacing i see guys with big dollar stuff that dont run.
What is a “criticality”? Hehe jk 🧐
the Cleveland was the best engine Ford made had the best heads