I came to realize that this is part of the reason why many anime are so over the top. They are loud, bombastic, they roll their tongue aggressively in their speech, they do all these things because this is what many Japanese people themselves want to do. It’s a form of escapism from their own societal woes. Seeing that helped me understand why we in America don’t have that kind of escapism in media as much. We have different societal issues, and our own media addresses those instead.
飲みニケーション was recommended to me by a host while I was staying in Japan as a great way to meet Japanese people, and the reason why didn't exactly click in my mind until after watching this video. Makes so much sense now though, thanks Dogen!
Love your nuanced take on Japanese drinking culture, feel like it's so in line with my personal experience in Japan as well. I appreciate these different style videos of how you break down rather complex Japanese Culture in a logical and easy to understand way. It’s my favorite video of yours yet, hope you keep on making more of these :)
Great video Dogen. I think this is a great point. I thikk for those who cant drink, ordering a oolong tea us a way to at least join in on the festivities. Of course there is a difference when as you say, "let your guard down" and actually partack.
I came in here thinking i'd hear a joke with a punchline at the end. I left learning about cultural differences between Japan and the US. Great video Dogen-sama!
The secret is you don't actually need to drink much or at all, as long as you go along with the group and act a bit drunk, by the time they're on their third beer they would have completely forgotten you're barely drinking. If a little is possible, sipping half a beer over 2 hours (while also getting soft drinks) is totally doable. If you can't drink at all, the best is to say it's for medical reasons and get some alcohol free beer to keep the looks for the first drink at least.
@@meneldalyep, just say "yes I'll go" when asked and explain that a lot of strong drink causes you some discomfort. I think they'll get it! You could also propose to do something else social, citing this same reason.
I like how England stands as probably the complete antithesis to this idea. Where banter and teasing is so commonplace, you seem lifeless and maybe unintelligent for not engaging in at least a little sarcasm. And I think it's also kinda interesting that, in America at least, most families have made politics/religion/serious discussion prohibited during family get togethers like Thanksgiving (that is until the Uncle starts to drink)
I am so glad to hear someone who really understands the culture say this! I have experienced it many times, but I always wondered if I was affecting the group dynamic as a 外人. At the same time, how else does a consensus driven culture come to decisions when you can't disagree with the boss? 飲み会！
Gonna drop a 2 beers deep “hontoe knee” or whatever 🤠 but this was probably the most succinct coverage of this topic I’ve watched to date. I’ll probably keep the link to this one on hand for future travel buddies 🍻 ~degozaru
Alcohol is massively overrated for a lot of youth (20-25 year olds). I'll join them in never drinking. I'd rather not support alcohol companies, and 'drinking cultures' are not good 'culture'. I've always had a great relationship with colleagues in Japan that accept me as a non-drinker, which is much better than being accepted like that in Australia. Also gout.
My teacher introduced me to your channel back in high school, and while I've since discontinued studying Japanese as a language, I've stuck around with the channel because of your wit and insight. I've really enjoyed watching your videos lately, keep it up!
The most well rounded video on Japanese culture I’ve ever seen. Interestingly I work for a global US company in Japan, my Japanese colleagues are “less Japanese” than others, they certainly don’t mince words when they have a problem say with a product manager or otherwise lol. Probably explains why many of them want to stay in the gaishikei realm.
Great advice, and great video. Just experienced my first nomikai situation 2 weeks ago and had a great time. The way they open up after a few drinks feels oddly rewarding.
I was talking about something like this with a friend the other day, albeit it wasn't about japanese culture but my own tho It's rather common for people that migrate to another country to stay in a bubble where they interact with other foreigners. Every country has different ways they get to actually know each other and it takes some time for people outside to understand that an activity that seems not that important is the way you create a genuine relationship with a co-workerr/colleague
Huh. I'm pretty leery of alcohol since alcoholism runs in both sides of my family, but I might have to try to suck it up if I end up studying in Japan for any significant amount of time. Thanks for another insightful and helpful video!
Excellent! I stayed with a Japanese family for a month while I studied Japanese. And even in their home we rarely got into topics of their inner thoughts. Thank you for explaining those two different parts, the inner for outer thought process!
I work at a japanese company and I have been a social drinker waay before moving to japan - I absolutely love nomikais, such fun events, I always join with the utmost pleasure, its a great occasion to make a fool out of yourself while getting to share with the team. 10/10
Nice video as always. Now I understand better to mister Toshio Suzuki(Ghibli producer) saying he doesn't trust in people that doesn't smoke or has vices. But I always go "berserk" with this or other sensitive topics. I saw old drunk japanese people on the streets of Japan causing fear and harassment. Personally, I would completely eliminate alcohol consumption from the entire world society. There are many ways to enjoy life that are harmless to others. 酒はいつも悪いものだぜ。生きたければ膵臓が要ります。いつもアルコール無しで本音にあってるのができるよ。
Unfortunately, I can't drink. I'm so insane without my meds that I'd fit the legal definition. Alchohol would mess with my meds and cause me to lose my mind very quickly.
Alcohol free beer is the play. In recent years, every place will offer it with the standard nomihodai (it might be a push from the government to keep drunk driving low, not sure about that).
I'm working remotely for a Japanese company, and because we can never have nomikais I always have this sense of doubt in me whenever they smile, laugh or say something nice, I don't know if they really feel that way or are just being polite. It could also just be my lack of self-confidence, I can't really know for sure..
This is how I introduced your video in my International cafe on Line and in Facebook: I don't drink alcohol--much; occasionally a glass or a few cups of sake. The new evidence sweeping the health and medical communities is conclusive--it poisons you, if you drink on a regular basis, ruining your dopamine levels, increasing your chances of cancer and heart disease and shrinking your brain--and this is not alcohol use disorder sufferers, it is everyone who drinks regularly--no matter how little. But this is a fascinating video. And, the author is like me; he only drinks several times a year. Dogen, when I return to Japan, in a few weeks, can I go out with coworkers and not drink?
It's just a question of accepting to join the tribe/group. The group/tribe has its rules and customs... you either accept and join or not. The work group, the hobby group, the party group, etc.
I too, am American and when I visited Japan for the first time I met some buddies of a close family friend, they were all significantly older than me. 2 generations at least. First we started talking about the basic stuff "why did you learn Japanese?", etc. After a few drinks he started asking me about my opinions on foreign politics and I was like 'oh shit he's REALLY testing my Japanese skills now' lol. Unfortunately my body doesn't process alcohol that well, it makes me rather sick. So like you, I only drink a few times a year. I hope this won't be an issue because I love talking to Japanese people when they are drinking. They really show you who they are inside and it's awesome. Thanks for the video!
Major major point: Turning down offers of going drinking WILL negatively affect you. It doesn't matter if you drink or not. It being part of the group in that situation that is important. Eventually you will just not be asked and never accepted into the group.
Always nice to learn about culture differences like this. I don't like alcohol too much, but I can see where the idea and the community around it come from. Hopefully I'll be ok just drinking my water and maybe occasional baileys ice cream 😂
I didn't really have the same experiences. A couple of higher ups at my current and previous job didn't drink, but they'd still join these events and socialize. My wife goes to various lunches/dinners with her (often work) friends and she doesn't drink. Drinking alcohol is certainly not a requirement to have people open up to you, social skills (and gender tbh) play a far greater role: my wife is socially skilled and has a lot of friends, I drink but I'm socially inept so I just sit at home and play games. I've also seen people send apology emails after a nomikai, for saying something "inappropriate" (really just their honne/poorly considered opinion of where the business should go lol), so the what happens in nomikai stays in nomikai is not necessarily through. People listen and take note
I've been a Tippsy member for a few years now. I was disappointed when they ended the quarterly sampler boxes of 375ml bottles but I still like them because they sell me a lot of alcohol and I really like alcohol.
Yes, if you do not drink, some Japanese people will not see you as a friend. Yes, if you dont drink, you may never see your Japanese colleagues 本音 The real question is, are you willing to compromise your personal beliefs for others approval? You could compare it to high school. Are you going to take a hit of that joint just to be apart of the cool kids? Are you going to drink just so you could be accepted by your Japanese community? Me personally, if someone is willing to exclude you cause of your hestinacy to take drugs (yes, alcohol is a drug), then that is a reflection on their character. I lived in Japan for 3 years and spoke Japanese at a conversational level (n4). I made tons of Japanese friends. Admittingly, most of my Japanese friends were rebels in Japanese society, and western minded in a sense. But I liked them. Whether I met them in Japan, or the west, I wouldve been friends with them regardless. Cause we enjoyed each others company. Not being friends with Yamamoto-san cause I didnt show up to the 飲み会, i wasnt losing any sleep over that
@@TragicGFuel I was able to hold fun conversations when I barely had N5. The JLPT may be terrible to rank your language skills, but if you know half the N4 words and grammar you can communicate somewhat. Your speaking ability develops from listening and speaking, so practice is all it takes. I do know a ton of foreigners who can barely pass N3 but have way better communication skills than someone with N1. For example, most workers who came under the ssw visa have just n4, but they work alongside the Japanese without problems.
Went to Japan for 3 weeks. Not a big drinker, but I don't avoid it. Yeah, people seemed happier talking when drunk - and typically irritated with me otherwise lol
Just throwing out there that you can always order a non-alcoholic beer or oolong tea at drinking parties. A lot of my coworkers will do that since they drive there.
Great question. I think the effort of going will certainly make a difference, but I suspect some Japanese people might feel slightly distanced when compared to someone who is drinking. Incidentally, this is what I did during my first three years here-I went to all the 飲み会 but never drank. Again, people treated me with dignity, but I noticed some of the people at the 飲み会 would sort of try and sober up and get stiff when talking to me. Most people were very open though!
I think there's actually more to it than just "blowing off steam" or "being part of the group" (though those are definitely factors). You hinted at it a few times but didn't seem to actually explicitly make the connection: Situations like these where people can actually speak honestly with each other are also *required for 建前 to actually work properly,* too. They are opportunities for Japanese people to _learn_ about their friends and coworkers _so that they can properly consider their needs and feelings_ the rest of the time. If my coworker is bothered by cigarette smoke, how do I know to avoid smoking around her, if she doesn't tell me? But she'll never tell me normally, so I'll never know that that's something I should be considering. If my other colleague is going through a messy breakup, that's something he's not going to be broadcasting to the whole office. Arguably, it's none of my business and I shouldn't even ask, even if I suspect something. But then how can I be considerate of him and try to support him, if I don't even know what's going on in his life? That's what these parties are really for. They allow the people involved to actually _understand_ each other _so that they can be properly considerate of each other's needs_ in the outside, everyday world, even though they're not allowed to tell people what their needs are there. There is an unspoken agreement that "what happens here stays here", but everyone also knows that's not actually true. They will never actually say it, but they do still (usually) remember, and that's actually important and necessary too. This is the mechanism that _allows people to be kind to each other._ (And this is why if you don't participate, it's not just antisocial, but it actually _makes life harder_ for the people around you, because you are taking away from them one of the only tools they know how to use to know that they are being properly considerate and polite towards you the rest of the time, which is such an important thing to them, and it can just make them feel like they are walking through a minefield, or even like they are a social failure every time they try to interact with you.)
It's not just Japan. Southeast Asia has similar aspects too, but we don't get that out through drinking. The community volunteerism, seemingly random hangouts, and long random chats all lead into closed-door dialogues with different social groups' leaders that feed upwards towards the eventual decisionmakers. They look for commitment, long-term building upwards, which has long been a good way of establishing an individual's track record towards trust. That's why it always seems like foreign money gets sucked into a blackhole; factions here don't want to again repeat 500 years of colonialism and lose their civilisation.
I'm not a beer guy but at an izakaya, I'll go with a high ball. Other places Hibiki or Macallan. A lot of places have non alcoholic or similar beverages nowadays so folks who opt to go dry should be fine. But can Dogen flip, drink and speak Japanese at the same time?
What about individuals who physically cannot drink due to legitimate medical concerns? Are there opportunities for them to participate in nomikai without literally consuming alcohol?
It is my honne 本音 that I often find myself disappointed and feeling like more of an exemplar of (what I imagine to be) Japanese-style diplomacy (which is what I would at first imagine tatemae 建前 to be), than so many of the Nihonjin themselves. 🤔 And in the dog example (6:46), I would want provide the neighbor a way to save face 面子を保つ, while still expressing my needs in an oblique way so that if my neighbor turns out to be a caring person, I avoid withholding from that person, the opportunity to show it by doing what I merely implied without asking directly, and to allow my neighbor to continue to inconvenience me if need be. I also like to think of what I do, as a way to give people the opportunity to do the right thing, without having to admit or accuse that they were previously doing something wrong. For example I might imagine myself saying: それは私の名誉です，こんなに騒々しい犬を歓迎するような隣人になる，私たちの街で犬のための場所を見つけるのは難しいかもしれないと知っているからです It is my honor to be the kind of neighbor who welcomes such a boisterous dog, because I know it can be hard to find a place for a dog in our city. Am I confusing the concept of tatemae 建前 with the concept of face 面 when they are actually very different?
I never drink, with similar reason to Dogen, is it still an issue if we go to the event but just order non-alcoholic beverage and the snacks? I never experience being intoxicated, so I didn't understand the problem with just being there and have fun with your friends.
This was a great video, but it still didn't answer my main question. I CANNOT drink. I have to take medication that has deadly interactions with alcohol. How do you think someone would be perceived if they would love to go to the izakaya for food and to open up and have fun, but couldn't actually drink for health reasons?
Question. How would one go about that if drinking would do them medical harm? For me, I have physical conditions that if I consume alcohol it would negatively affect me. As much I would want to participate in all of that, I feel that my medical limitation would prevent me and I wouldn't "check that final box."
@@Dogen thanks! I have no problem being in a situation where people are having a good time drinking. This isn’t a moral or religious thing; I used to drink socially occasionally a few times a year. I do have half a shelf of medications that say that I should consider not drinking alcohol, and the last time that I went against that, I regretted it. Knowing that I could pick an alternative and still have a good time is a good thing. Maybe if there was something outstanding available, I would risk the consequences for something really top-notch. Like perhaps a renowned sake.
Great and insightful video, more people should see this! Rant ahead: For those objecting to alcohol for religious reasons like my family, it's notable that the influence for this vague "anti-alcohol feeling" is from puritan culture or the prohibition movement. That is, this objection to alcohol for alcohol's sake is *peculiar* to America! Even as children, peasantry in fuedal Europe, for instance, drank low alcohol % ale on the daily because the process of creation made it cleaner than available water sources. As I tell my mom, Jesus also drank wine lol.
I am german, so I experienced alcohol and drinking culture at a pretty young age. Parties, weddings and birthdays were full of alcohol and with other kids my age, we were secretly taking small sips at those gatherings. I think the explanation you gave about American drinking culture is similar to what I've experienced. When I was about 13, I started to drink more alcohol on my own to deal with a lot of problems and soon it became pretty unhealthy - up to a point where I was hospitalized after alcohol poisoning and this lead to a an alcohol abstinence since 2017. Haven't drunk since then and my social circle is really welcoming my decision to not drink and really look out for me when I am at gatherings where alcohol is consumed. However, with the explanation you gave about japanese drinking culture, I can understand why it is important and how it can affect relationships. If I ever get into this situation, I think I won't turn down the request and just drink slowly and responsible in a an acceptable pace. Thank you Dogen :D
After hurricans and blizzards and also love to drink , dont see how thes 2 have to mix just to help your neighbor (plently of other countries with disaters dont have the same drinking culture) There are other things you can do other than drink to form friends and allies, to which im guess the japanese youth are also changing since drinking has gone down. Add that i get the impression that being drunk gives you legal grey area where in the states it doesnt matter if you're drunk, you're still held accountable. Just think its all left overs of an older era
So what is actually the point here? If I don't drink alcohol, should I STILL be in nomikai? I like the video but it leaves me without the concrete answer of YES or NO.
@@saundroid1253 😂 Also wow, Dōgen actually read my comment 😅 As a long-time expat in Japan, I now feel terrible for having expressed myself without filters! 😁 Great video, by the way. Totally agree with the premise.
I used to drink occasionally myself, but due to health issues, I had to quit. I'm on medicine for said health problems likely permanently. This is something I'd very much like to participate in if I had the choice to, but since I don't, would I be at a major social disadvantage in Japan?
I wouldn't say major, especially if you're young; it just might make it more difficult to get certain Japanese people to open up to you. You can still have a great time in Japan.
To be fair, the same is true in most cultures. In the US and in Europe for sure. When growing up in that culture we often don't see or recognize the quirks that culture has, but as a foreigner they're often glaringly obvious - and often a hurdle to acceptance.
@@Dogen thank you for your kind reply. Yes, the younger generation does bring hope and thankfully with your presence and teachings, we may learn to coexist and thrive in Japan in the not too distant future.
Weed has its drawbacks too, like damage to short and long term memory, motor functions, and speech following long-term use. Two things can be bad for us without it being a controversial statement. Also, like tobacco, it stinks and people can be allergic to it - you're free to do what you like with your own body, but keep it away from everyone else. Weed is legal in my state and I drive with my windows up thanks to all the grow-ops and dispensaries stinking up everything. Its crappy.
actually wrong in some public schools in america kids DO wear uniforms and it was a big issue in the late 90s early 00s whether or not to have public schools wear uniforms
@@Blackgriffonphoenixgnah, still a thing on a district by district basis. We had dresscode at my school as late as 2014; I would have preferred uniforms over what the dresscode entailed (polo shirts, khakis or jeans, close toed shoes that had to be black or brown, no hoodies except in winter and they couldnt have graphics on them. The argument was it limited gang and clique affiliations, but those still existed because it was never anything about the clothes. There were straight up underground fight clubs complete with betting taking place in the bathrooms and locker rooms - dresscode doesnt fix that).
I really appreciate these more serious videos more than the comedy skits as fun as they are haha.
I came to realize that this is part of the reason why many anime are so over the top. They are loud, bombastic, they roll their tongue aggressively in their speech, they do all these things because this is what many Japanese people themselves want to do. It’s a form of escapism from their own societal woes.
Seeing that helped me understand why we in America don’t have that kind of escapism in media as much. We have different societal issues, and our own media addresses those instead.
That was another really well done video.
Never understood this concept until I left Japan, love the video and I get your decision for placing ad at the start
Great video, makes total sense. Didn't know my man was a tricker! 🤜
Once a tricker always a tricker!
飲みニケーション was recommended to me by a host while I was staying in Japan as a great way to meet Japanese people, and the reason why didn't exactly click in my mind until after watching this video. Makes so much sense now though, thanks Dogen!
Another outstanding video. Really enjoying the longer content. Keep it up!!
Love your nuanced take on Japanese drinking culture, feel like it's so in line with my personal experience in Japan as well. I appreciate these different style videos of how you break down rather complex Japanese Culture in a logical and easy to understand way. It’s my favorite video of yours yet, hope you keep on making more of these :)
Great video Dogen. I think this is a great point. I thikk for those who cant drink, ordering a oolong tea us a way to at least join in on the festivities. Of course there is a difference when as you say, "let your guard down" and actually partack.
I came in here thinking i'd hear a joke with a punchline at the end. I left learning about cultural differences between Japan and the US. Great video Dogen-sama!
Cheers!
Top notch commentary! I love your cultural analyses and stories
Appreciate it James.
4k video that's crazy
cheers haha
Thats more than 20 pixels!
Considering that I can't drink without feeling absolutely awful, this is sad news lol.
The secret is you don't actually need to drink much or at all, as long as you go along with the group and act a bit drunk, by the time they're on their third beer they would have completely forgotten you're barely drinking.
If a little is possible, sipping half a beer over 2 hours (while also getting soft drinks) is totally doable. If you can't drink at all, the best is to say it's for medical reasons and get some alcohol free beer to keep the looks for the first drink at least.
@@meneldalyep, just say "yes I'll go" when asked and explain that a lot of strong drink causes you some discomfort. I think they'll get it! You could also propose to do something else social, citing this same reason.
I like how England stands as probably the complete antithesis to this idea.
Where banter and teasing is so commonplace, you seem lifeless and maybe unintelligent for not engaging in at least a little sarcasm.
And I think it's also kinda interesting that, in America at least, most families have made politics/religion/serious discussion prohibited during family get togethers like Thanksgiving (that is until the Uncle starts to drink)
I am so glad to hear someone who really understands the culture say this!
I have experienced it many times, but I always wondered if I was affecting the group dynamic as a 外人.
At the same time, how else does a consensus driven culture come to decisions when you can't disagree with the boss?
飲み会！
Actually a lot of people raise disagreements with boss at 飲み会！
Gonna drop a 2 beers deep “hontoe knee” or whatever 🤠 but this was probably the most succinct coverage of this topic I’ve watched to date. I’ll probably keep the link to this one on hand for future travel buddies 🍻
~degozaru
Alcohol is massively overrated for a lot of youth (20-25 year olds). I'll join them in never drinking. I'd rather not support alcohol companies, and 'drinking cultures' are not good 'culture'. I've always had a great relationship with colleagues in Japan that accept me as a non-drinker, which is much better than being accepted like that in Australia. Also gout.
Superbly appreciative of this semi longform content! I'm visiting Beppu next month!!!
Cheers, mate!
My teacher introduced me to your channel back in high school, and while I've since discontinued studying Japanese as a language, I've stuck around with the channel because of your wit and insight. I've really enjoyed watching your videos lately, keep it up!
Incredibly insightful video, thank you so much Dogen!!!
This is likely one of the best videos you have made. Very insightful and honest.
The most well rounded video on Japanese culture I’ve ever seen.
Interestingly I work for a global US company in Japan, my Japanese colleagues are “less Japanese” than others, they certainly don’t mince words when they have a problem say with a product manager or otherwise lol. Probably explains why many of them want to stay in the gaishikei realm.
ikinari "Mikan tabemasu? (do you like oranges?)" out of nowhere. Love it.
My favourite kind of dogen content
Great advice, and great video.
Just experienced my first nomikai situation 2 weeks ago and had a great time. The way they open up after a few drinks feels oddly rewarding.
I was talking about something like this with a friend the other day, albeit it wasn't about japanese culture but my own tho
It's rather common for people that migrate to another country to stay in a bubble where they interact with other foreigners. Every country has different ways they get to actually know each other and it takes some time for people outside to understand that an activity that seems not that important is the way you create a genuine relationship with a co-workerr/colleague
Extremely illuminating. Thank you for sharing.
Huh. I'm pretty leery of alcohol since alcoholism runs in both sides of my family, but I might have to try to suck it up if I end up studying in Japan for any significant amount of time. Thanks for another insightful and helpful video!
5:17 you meant averse Dōgen Sensei, but thats okay; 英語上手ですね！
always think its cool to see the tricking clips spliced into the videos every now and then Dogen-san!!
That was actually incredibly insightful. Thank you!
Excellent! I stayed with a Japanese family for a month while I studied Japanese. And even in their home we rarely got into topics of their inner thoughts. Thank you for explaining those two different parts, the inner for outer thought process!
I work at a japanese company and I have been a social drinker waay before moving to japan - I absolutely love nomikais, such fun events, I always join with the utmost pleasure, its a great occasion to make a fool out of yourself while getting to share with the team. 10/10
Dogen you were already great but this kind of content just shows your storytelling abilities to its fullest - viva Dogen!
Nice video as always. Now I understand better to mister Toshio Suzuki(Ghibli producer) saying he doesn't trust in people that doesn't smoke or has vices. But I always go "berserk" with this or other sensitive topics. I saw old drunk japanese people on the streets of Japan causing fear and harassment. Personally, I would completely eliminate alcohol consumption from the entire world society. There are many ways to enjoy life that are harmless to others.
酒はいつも悪いものだぜ。生きたければ膵臓が要ります。いつもアルコール無しで本音にあってるのができるよ。
Unfortunately, I can't drink. I'm so insane without my meds that I'd fit the legal definition. Alchohol would mess with my meds and cause me to lose my mind very quickly.
Alcohol free beer is the play. In recent years, every place will offer it with the standard nomihodai (it might be a push from the government to keep drunk driving low, not sure about that).
@@meneldal interesting
I'm working remotely for a Japanese company, and because we can never have nomikais I always have this sense of doubt in me whenever they smile, laugh or say something nice, I don't know if they really feel that way or are just being polite. It could also just be my lack of self-confidence, I can't really know for sure..
I'm still ordering apple juice, Dogen!
This is how I introduced your video in my International cafe on Line and in Facebook:
I don't drink alcohol--much; occasionally a glass or a few cups of sake. The new evidence sweeping the health and medical communities is conclusive--it poisons you, if you drink on a regular basis, ruining your dopamine levels, increasing your chances of cancer and heart disease and shrinking your brain--and this is not alcohol use disorder sufferers, it is everyone who drinks regularly--no matter how little. But this is a fascinating video. And, the author is like me; he only drinks several times a year.
Dogen, when I return to Japan, in a few weeks, can I go out with coworkers and not drink?
It's just a question of accepting to join the tribe/group. The group/tribe has its rules and customs... you either accept and join or not. The work group, the hobby group, the party group, etc.
I too, am American and when I visited Japan for the first time I met some buddies of a close family friend, they were all significantly older than me. 2 generations at least. First we started talking about the basic stuff "why did you learn Japanese?", etc. After a few drinks he started asking me about my opinions on foreign politics and I was like 'oh shit he's REALLY testing my Japanese skills now' lol.
Unfortunately my body doesn't process alcohol that well, it makes me rather sick. So like you, I only drink a few times a year. I hope this won't be an issue because I love talking to Japanese people when they are drinking. They really show you who they are inside and it's awesome.
Thanks for the video!
Major major point: Turning down offers of going drinking WILL negatively affect you. It doesn't matter if you drink or not. It being part of the group in that situation that is important. Eventually you will just not be asked and never accepted into the group.
Wow, this was a pretty serious video
おはよう
Could make a version speaking in Japanese for these longer bids. You are my Japanese practice
Always nice to learn about culture differences like this. I don't like alcohol too much, but I can see where the idea and the community around it come from. Hopefully I'll be ok just drinking my water and maybe occasional baileys ice cream 😂
I didn't really have the same experiences.
A couple of higher ups at my current and previous job didn't drink, but they'd still join these events and socialize. My wife goes to various lunches/dinners with her (often work) friends and she doesn't drink.
Drinking alcohol is certainly not a requirement to have people open up to you, social skills (and gender tbh) play a far greater role: my wife is socially skilled and has a lot of friends, I drink but I'm socially inept so I just sit at home and play games.
I've also seen people send apology emails after a nomikai, for saying something "inappropriate" (really just their honne/poorly considered opinion of where the business should go lol), so the what happens in nomikai stays in nomikai is not necessarily through. People listen and take note
Great Video
I've been a Tippsy member for a few years now. I was disappointed when they ended the quarterly sampler boxes of 375ml bottles but I still like them because they sell me a lot of alcohol and I really like alcohol.
Dogen's understanding of Japanese language in culture is so great that he's somehow evolved to even look Japanese
USA: I wanna drink with you because I like you.
Japan: You have to drink with me so that you will like me.
Yes, if you do not drink, some Japanese people will not see you as a friend.
Yes, if you dont drink, you may never see your Japanese colleagues 本音
The real question is, are you willing to compromise your personal beliefs for others approval?
You could compare it to high school. Are you going to take a hit of that joint just to be apart of the cool kids?
Are you going to drink just so you could be accepted by your Japanese community?
Me personally, if someone is willing to exclude you cause of your hestinacy to take drugs (yes, alcohol is a drug), then that is a reflection on their character.
I lived in Japan for 3 years and spoke Japanese at a conversational level (n4). I made tons of Japanese friends. Admittingly, most of my Japanese friends were rebels in Japanese society, and western minded in a sense.
But I liked them. Whether I met them in Japan, or the west, I wouldve been friends with them regardless. Cause we enjoyed each others company.
Not being friends with Yamamoto-san cause I didnt show up to the 飲み会, i wasnt losing any sleep over that
Yamamoto-san could be a G tho
N4 is conversational?
@@Dogen Maybe I don't want to be friends with a G, especially if that's the requirement for entry.
@@TragicGFuel I was able to hold fun conversations when I barely had N5. The JLPT may be terrible to rank your language skills, but if you know half the N4 words and grammar you can communicate somewhat. Your speaking ability develops from listening and speaking, so practice is all it takes. I do know a ton of foreigners who can barely pass N3 but have way better communication skills than someone with N1. For example, most workers who came under the ssw visa have just n4, but they work alongside the Japanese without problems.
@@shiroi5672 ig i had a different meaning of conversational, I would say it is being able to talk about stuff without making obvious mistakes
Went to Japan for 3 weeks. Not a big drinker, but I don't avoid it. Yeah, people seemed happier talking when drunk - and typically irritated with me otherwise lol
Just throwing out there that you can always order a non-alcoholic beer or oolong tea at drinking parties. A lot of my coworkers will do that since they drive there.
So can I just like, go to the 飲み会, and not drink?
EDIT: You addressed it, nevermind. Okay, just do not hang out with おじさん
Great question. I think the effort of going will certainly make a difference, but I suspect some Japanese people might feel slightly distanced when compared to someone who is drinking. Incidentally, this is what I did during my first three years here-I went to all the 飲み会 but never drank. Again, people treated me with dignity, but I noticed some of the people at the 飲み会 would sort of try and sober up and get stiff when talking to me. Most people were very open though!
@@Dogen 外国人にとっては、ちょっと変な空気だと思うよね。
日本人：「あら、飲まないあいつ。しっかりしっかり！」
I think there's actually more to it than just "blowing off steam" or "being part of the group" (though those are definitely factors). You hinted at it a few times but didn't seem to actually explicitly make the connection: Situations like these where people can actually speak honestly with each other are also *required for 建前 to actually work properly,* too.
They are opportunities for Japanese people to _learn_ about their friends and coworkers _so that they can properly consider their needs and feelings_ the rest of the time. If my coworker is bothered by cigarette smoke, how do I know to avoid smoking around her, if she doesn't tell me? But she'll never tell me normally, so I'll never know that that's something I should be considering. If my other colleague is going through a messy breakup, that's something he's not going to be broadcasting to the whole office. Arguably, it's none of my business and I shouldn't even ask, even if I suspect something. But then how can I be considerate of him and try to support him, if I don't even know what's going on in his life?
That's what these parties are really for. They allow the people involved to actually _understand_ each other _so that they can be properly considerate of each other's needs_ in the outside, everyday world, even though they're not allowed to tell people what their needs are there. There is an unspoken agreement that "what happens here stays here", but everyone also knows that's not actually true. They will never actually say it, but they do still (usually) remember, and that's actually important and necessary too. This is the mechanism that _allows people to be kind to each other._
(And this is why if you don't participate, it's not just antisocial, but it actually _makes life harder_ for the people around you, because you are taking away from them one of the only tools they know how to use to know that they are being properly considerate and polite towards you the rest of the time, which is such an important thing to them, and it can just make them feel like they are walking through a minefield, or even like they are a social failure every time they try to interact with you.)
it kind of blows that they have to structure this gathering of vital information around doing an activity that makes some people physically ill though
Im already a social minefield, so really this is no different from my normal life.
Damn, Japan is just Nightmare Mode for introverts or misanthropes, huh?
Thank you.
It's not just Japan. Southeast Asia has similar aspects too, but we don't get that out through drinking. The community volunteerism, seemingly random hangouts, and long random chats all lead into closed-door dialogues with different social groups' leaders that feed upwards towards the eventual decisionmakers. They look for commitment, long-term building upwards, which has long been a good way of establishing an individual's track record towards trust. That's why it always seems like foreign money gets sucked into a blackhole; factions here don't want to again repeat 500 years of colonialism and lose their civilisation.
National peer pressure 💀
I'm not a beer guy but at an izakaya, I'll go with a high ball. Other places Hibiki or Macallan. A lot of places have non alcoholic or similar beverages nowadays so folks who opt to go dry should be fine. But can Dogen flip, drink and speak Japanese at the same time?
What about individuals who physically cannot drink due to legitimate medical concerns? Are there opportunities for them to participate in nomikai without literally consuming alcohol?
Would be interested in how third shifters like me would manage to still fit in when "dinner" is at 7 or 8 in the morning.
12:47 Japanese people do accept foreigners provided the foreigners are doing their best to act Japanese
至言
The irony is that Alcohol makes you stupid, short term and long term. Frowning on colleagues that don't want to poison themselves is really strange.
making yourself dumber makes you fit in better in a culture of lockstep harmony and extreme repression probably
Its interesting that as someone' that can't drink, i don't understand drinking culture. Lol
I was always the square at parties too LOL
For what it's worth, this can be directly applied to the culture in South Korea, too.
Felt the same while I lived there!
@@Dogen I used to be a hagwon English teacher. I can verify the push for after-work drinks.
Please continue this style of video!
Modern korea is just aping what japan went through at this point
I've noticed that most Japanese people (in general) are genteel, reserved, and quiet... Until they sip their first drink!
It is my honne 本音 that I often find myself disappointed and feeling like more of an exemplar of (what I imagine to be) Japanese-style diplomacy (which is what I would at first imagine tatemae 建前 to be), than so many of the Nihonjin themselves. 🤔
And in the dog example (6:46), I would want provide the neighbor a way to save face 面子を保つ, while still expressing my needs in an oblique way so that if my neighbor turns out to be a caring person, I avoid withholding from that person, the opportunity to show it by doing what I merely implied without asking directly, and to allow my neighbor to continue to inconvenience me if need be.
I also like to think of what I do, as a way to give people the opportunity to do the right thing, without having to admit or accuse that they were previously doing something wrong.
For example I might imagine myself saying:
それは私の名誉です，こんなに騒々しい犬を歓迎するような隣人になる，私たちの街で犬のための場所を見つけるのは難しいかもしれないと知っているからです
It is my honor to be the kind of neighbor who welcomes such a boisterous dog, because I know it can be hard to find a place for a dog in our city.
Am I confusing the concept of tatemae 建前 with the concept of face 面 when they are actually very different?
I never drink, with similar reason to Dogen, is it still an issue if we go to the event but just order non-alcoholic beverage and the snacks?
I never experience being intoxicated, so I didn't understand the problem with just being there and have fun with your friends.
This was a great video, but it still didn't answer my main question. I CANNOT drink. I have to take medication that has deadly interactions with alcohol. How do you think someone would be perceived if they would love to go to the izakaya for food and to open up and have fun, but couldn't actually drink for health reasons?
Why are you flexing with that bottle of Dassai?
I think that if someone asked me that question at an izekaya, I'd be frozen like a deer in headlights
I haven't had a beer for a year. Art of Party on your knees you will not fall so far when you fall out. 😂 🎉 kampai seiza swayza
道元さんからみて、日本に移民が増えたら日本はどうなると思いますか？何か見える未来像があれば聞いてみたい
Wait so who's the muscly fellow doing all those flips and making me question my lesbianism
Do you still practice martial arts? Have you considered joining a old style dojo in Japan?
Bit too many injuries now, sadly. Still work out a fair amount, however!
@@Dogen thats great. Has exercise become any more popular in Japan? I know muscles are usually seen as intimidating there.
@@orclord5719 Slowly but surely becoming more popular!
Question. How would one go about that if drinking would do them medical harm? For me, I have physical conditions that if I consume alcohol it would negatively affect me. As much I would want to participate in all of that, I feel that my medical limitation would prevent me and I wouldn't "check that final box."
I'd recommend going to the 飲み会 but having a non-alcoholic drink. Naturally it's not quite the same, but Japanese people will appreciate the effort!
@@Dogen thanks! I have no problem being in a situation where people are having a good time drinking. This isn’t a moral or religious thing; I used to drink socially occasionally a few times a year. I do have half a shelf of medications that say that I should consider not drinking alcohol, and the last time that I went against that, I regretted it. Knowing that I could pick an alternative and still have a good time is a good thing. Maybe if there was something outstanding available, I would risk the consequences for something really top-notch. Like perhaps a renowned sake.
@@five-toedslothbear4051 I really like Dassai, for what it's worth. Not sure how it would pair with your medication, however.
Great and insightful video, more people should see this! Rant ahead:
For those objecting to alcohol for religious reasons like my family, it's notable that the influence for this vague "anti-alcohol feeling" is from puritan culture or the prohibition movement. That is, this objection to alcohol for alcohol's sake is *peculiar* to America! Even as children, peasantry in fuedal Europe, for instance, drank low alcohol % ale on the daily because the process of creation made it cleaner than available water sources. As I tell my mom, Jesus also drank wine lol.
The best way to avoid underage drinking is to let kids have a sip of some beer, they'll hate it and won't try for a fair bit
@@meneldalindeed lol, exactly that worked for me
@@NathanthelateIslam.
I am so glad I learned how to drink lmao
I am german, so I experienced alcohol and drinking culture at a pretty young age. Parties, weddings and birthdays were full of alcohol and with other kids my age, we were secretly taking small sips at those gatherings.
I think the explanation you gave about American drinking culture is similar to what I've experienced.
When I was about 13, I started to drink more alcohol on my own to deal with a lot of problems and soon it became pretty unhealthy - up to a point where I was hospitalized after alcohol poisoning and this lead to a an alcohol abstinence since 2017.
Haven't drunk since then and my social circle is really welcoming my decision to not drink and really look out for me when I am at gatherings where alcohol is consumed.
However, with the explanation you gave about japanese drinking culture, I can understand why it is important and how it can affect relationships.
If I ever get into this situation, I think I won't turn down the request and just drink slowly and responsible in a an acceptable pace.
Thank you Dogen :D
After hurricans and blizzards and also love to drink , dont see how thes 2 have to mix just to help your neighbor (plently of other countries with disaters dont have the same drinking culture) There are other things you can do other than drink to form friends and allies, to which im guess the japanese youth are also changing since drinking has gone down. Add that i get the impression that being drunk gives you legal grey area where in the states it doesnt matter if you're drunk, you're still held accountable.
Just think its all left overs of an older era
So what is actually the point here? If I don't drink alcohol, should I STILL be in nomikai? I like the video but it leaves me without the concrete answer of YES or NO.
12:50 was that pic taken at your wedding?
Yep
@@Dogen In the context of "taking part in the cultural traditions" that's such a perfect picture- thanks for sharing that.
I have a legitimate alcohol allergy
Forgive me Dogen-sama, but it's risk-AVERSE, no "d" in there.
Eigo jouzu
cheers-need to be more 英語上手
@@saundroid1253 😂 Also wow, Dōgen actually read my comment 😅 As a long-time expat in Japan, I now feel terrible for having expressed myself without filters! 😁 Great video, by the way. Totally agree with the premise.
英語土手
I used to drink occasionally myself, but due to health issues, I had to quit. I'm on medicine for said health problems likely permanently. This is something I'd very much like to participate in if I had the choice to, but since I don't, would I be at a major social disadvantage in Japan?
I wouldn't say major, especially if you're young; it just might make it more difficult to get certain Japanese people to open up to you. You can still have a great time in Japan.
ok haven't watched through and gomenasai i amu juubako picking but I think it's risk averse than adverse
cant believe i got here in 10 mins
The ultimate American perspective is to NOT do something because it is popular, lol.
To be fair, the same is true in most cultures. In the US and in Europe for sure. When growing up in that culture we often don't see or recognize the quirks that culture has, but as a foreigner they're often glaringly obvious - and often a hurdle to acceptance.
ポッドキャストやってますか？🥺🥺🥺🥺😙
検討します
@@Dogen 🫶🏼🫶🏼🫶🏼
did you really need 5 minutes to say you dont like drinking? :)
As someone who can’t drink alcohol due to religious reasons, I don’t think I can thrive in Japanese society.
There may be truth to this, sadly. That said, the younger generation isn't as group oriented, as mentioned in the video.
@@Dogen thank you for your kind reply. Yes, the younger generation does bring hope and thankfully with your presence and teachings, we may learn to coexist and thrive in Japan in the not too distant future.
Alcohol is a drug that is worse than weed and yet its the socially acceptable and legal one. Islam was right about drinking
Weed has its drawbacks too, like damage to short and long term memory, motor functions, and speech following long-term use.
Two things can be bad for us without it being a controversial statement.
Also, like tobacco, it stinks and people can be allergic to it - you're free to do what you like with your own body, but keep it away from everyone else. Weed is legal in my state and I drive with my windows up thanks to all the grow-ops and dispensaries stinking up everything. Its crappy.
@@Your-Least-Favorite-Stranger my point is still that society is hypocritical for rejecting one potentially dangerous thing while accepting another
@@kani-liciousIf you expect logical consistency from lawmakers, you're in for a pretty rough time.
actually wrong in some public schools in america kids DO wear uniforms and it was a big issue in the late 90s early 00s whether or not to have public schools wear uniforms
yeah twenty years ago
@@Blackgriffonphoenixgnah, still a thing on a district by district basis.
We had dresscode at my school as late as 2014; I would have preferred uniforms over what the dresscode entailed (polo shirts, khakis or jeans, close toed shoes that had to be black or brown, no hoodies except in winter and they couldnt have graphics on them. The argument was it limited gang and clique affiliations, but those still existed because it was never anything about the clothes. There were straight up underground fight clubs complete with betting taking place in the bathrooms and locker rooms - dresscode doesnt fix that).
FIRTS?TS?F?F
NOOOOOOOO
1st?