I'm not a gamer (I'm the mom of one) but found this interesting to hear young ladies experiencing the same feelings and types of harassment that women who work IRL in heavily male dominated fields have traditionally experienced. It's just as hurtful to hear these things online as it is on a job site. I'm an old lady contractor, yet what we experience is all so familar . I appreciate this panel and discussion from these young women, and the progress and healing you are trying to make.
@@donhostiarra88 I don't hear anything about such fellas but hey, if they have stories, I'm willing to listen. But I can also guarantee that their stories would be a rarity compared to what we have to experience wherever we go.
@@donhostiarra88 she did not said anything to conclude what you just said. She just claimed that exists harassment in the workplace, we should call them out when this happens independently of the genders involved.
@@donhostiarra88 I think men who work in female dominated fields sometimes face accusations of being gay or pedophiles (if it's a field working with children, which are usually female dominated) but not usually by any of the women he works with -- usually by other men in their social circles or families or possibly even men in other positions in the workplace - like a male nurse being mocked by male doctors. Women who are their colleagues don't typically harass these men, as far as I've ever heard.
it’s weird when you’re a person in your head, but a girl to others. because ‘person’ and ‘girl’ to a-lot of people, are not the same thing. it’s nice when people accidentally mistake you for a fella anonymously, because it lets you feel like a person for a while.
I know I am late to the party, but I just wanted to say this really struck me. I know exactly what you mean. You're in a chat, or playing a game or something and no one knows your gender. Sometimes the moment a room full of guys realizes you're a gal... you can feel the whole energy of the room change. They make weird jokes about how you're a girl, they ask you weird questions. Suddenly it's like you have to answer for all women. It's so strange and frustrating.
i once grinded some WoW Mythic dungeons with 4 other girls. they were all doing the girl talk thing and i was playing a female character and they though i was a girl and i just went along with it. it was nice hearing the girls in my guild having a good time.
I've actually gotten pretty good at 'pretending to be a guy' in games (and discord servers). At least when there's no voice chat. (choosing a non-female-sounding name, the way I write, using less emotes/emoji, etc...) Kinda sad, now that I think about it.
sameee honestly even in vc, voice changers are smth ive genuinely considered. (honestly the only reason i havent actually got one is cause its just easier to say 'no mic sry' than go trhough the install)
For the girl talking about Siege, I've only played with 3 random girls before and every experience was the same. One guy starts screaming "OMG GAMER GRILL" one guy asks her to make him a sandwich, and another starts talking about sexual things. I always thought that stuff was just memes but to actually see it happening in real time made me realize that it's hard being a girl gamer just for the single fact that they're a girl
How much have you played of R6S? I literally stopped playing because it's just a cesspool, I don't think it's symbolic of a sexist issue, I think the majority of their community is just hateful in general.
@@timoak I've been playing for a couple of years. I mean toxicity is pretty normal it's just weird that girls get like different treatment just cuz they're girls
Hi! I'm the person wearing the mask. I'm sorry it looks like I'm dabbing. I usually cough in my hands which is gross and nasty. So someone recommended me to immediately dab when it does happen. And also I wanna wear a mask, because I'm kinda insecure about myself and was nervous of going on camera I'm sorry aaaa
No need to apologize, anyone would get nervous going in front of thousands of people. Would be even worse if everyone criticized your looks or someone used your identity and what you talked about against you.
@@takesomemonkey Totally agree! Most of the manic pixie dreamgirls are also 'not like other girls' so the protagonist can keep his inner belief of "girls are usually stupid" while having something to put his dick in. I feel something like this is particularly interesting for incels because it allows them to remain in their mysoginistic bubble.
A message to all decent guys, please be the guy who just says, "hey man, cool it" when these things are said to women around you. Don't fight don't argue, just ask them to calm down. Thank you, from the decent girls.
They should have explained the meme properly i think. Also Belle Delphine basically copied a sex-article that is very common in Japan (since she is a good business-person). The value of the story is not that males are creepy and buy bathwater (which apparently was sterile btw), but that our society becomes more oriented towards Japan -> entrepreneurs like Belle copying JP-stuff -> the business model works since we don't live in North Korea. So the astonishing aspect of this story is a broad cultural change based on an open culture, and not this dull, empty conclusion that men are creeps.
@Vergil TheVirgin yeah you're right, as Michael said, i ment it more like doing well in business (coming up with new strategies, even if they're morally reprehensible)
Lea Yuki I think that’s what she’s hitting at. Getting flamed as if she was a guy.. So other sensible toxicity, not just blatant sexual harassment, e.t.c
It's funny because the same people who would go an harass these ladies online are the exact same people who wouldn't even have the balls to aproach a girl in real life.
It's the internet, There are no consequences for these actions. So ofcourse they are going to behave in a different way then irl where their are consequences.
God this is all so painfully true and so frequent. I have been told that I was "asking for" explicit images and years later I still have no idea how I was asking for anything. I was kind to him because I thought we were friends. I was only 15.
I had the same thing happen to be.. I was on Xbox and was naïve and asked if I wanted to role play with him (I was like 11 or 12) playing Minecraft, and I said sure, he said ill be the wife and he will be the husband. we built a town and it was fun at first and To me he sounded like a child, but now that I'm older it doesn't seem that way, it was either a voice changer or something. sooner or later he pressured me to give him my phone number telling me were friends so its okay. later he started sending me these weird messages while I was playing Minecraft "My **** is so hard right now, I want to kiss you and other nasty messages... and started sending images to my phone, I was confused. but I just ignored him but he was spamming me, sooner or later my sister saw the messages and told me to delete him from my friend and block him, and remove his number from my phone.. he spammed me messages after I unfriended him "I'm sorry ! please don't remove me, I love you" and I felt bad at first.. but thinking back he was a creep. Parents should watch their kids online more, I gave him my name and other personal information =( (Sorry if this was long i just wanted to get this off my chest)
@@iwuvpiesgaming9164 I'm so sorry this happened to you. You didn't deserve that. I'm going into education and things like this make me so passionate about cyber security because when we were young (I know for me at least) it was 'don't talk to strangers online' but nothing was said about supposed friends. And they are the ones who can cause so much damage. Sending care to you 😔❤
@@solarydays To be fair, when we were kids a lot of parents didn't know crap about the internet and cyber relationship dynamics other than "don't talk to strangers" they likely saw no problem with their young daughter playing a cute game with another (supposed) young kid that was their age.
@@solarydays makes sense in theory, but it doesn’t happen. I took advantage of the fact my parents didn’t know anything about computers, besides their knowledge of looking at history (which I quickly learned to erase). Kids never want their parents to know what they’re doing and I’m pretty sure almost everyone did shit on the Internet their parents would of disapproved of. Only thing is that as kids we don’t know any better and think we know everything, until something fucked up happens, and the shame of allowing it to happens only makes the desire to hide it stronger. It’s not as simple as saying it’s common sense. I mean nowadays I’m sure parents know enough about technology but back in the early 2000s till like 15ish, it just feels like parents just didn’t know how to monitor kids internet use. They thought we were IMing our real friends. I’m just saying, it’s way more complex.
These women just kept apologizing for the smallest things, even things that are not their fault. :( They are so used to apologizing it's like an instinct... It's so sad..
Thats how you know those people are normal. If they come to the conclusion that people drink it or they find it easy to believe thats how you know theyre a freak in the... bathwater? XD
i love how the girl at the bottom is literally dying out of laughter when other women try to explain dr K who Belle Delphine is :D Edit: For context: 17:02
Personally I would love it if people could stop viewing the girls as the ''problem'' and focus on the aholes. Ive had plenty of situations where my games were held hostage where I was basically blackmailed to perform or give someone a social or they derail or throw the match. The worst feeling is when you can tell the other people getting annoyed and wanting you to ''just do it'' so we can play the game. It makes you feel very singled out. Im glad you mentioned the ''farming reputation points'' I dont think people really realize how harmful and hurtful the whole ''simping'' and ''friend zone'' thing is to girls. Where youre like yay friends and then it turns out all they wanted from you were some sort of favors of sexual nature. Its depressing, it makes you feel like you as a person dont matter and it makes you vary of friend requests and even trying to make friends in a game, cause you want to protect yourself. Also I think the bad relations between girls is also because for many young girls the only way to get ''respect'' from guys is to do the ''not like other girls'' things, and being chill or befriending another girl might stir that up. On top of that from personal experience the guys in games will often do their best to get you to ''fight'' comparing you, reading into your communication, etc. and just not engaging might be a way to protect yourself and not give them ammo. Though randomly queing into full girl teams in OW was some of the most fun I had in the game.
Even when you are one of the guys they will ignore your experiences as a woman a lot of the time, or even minimise it. It is fucked, just misogyny and hatred and invalidation of female bodies.
This is so saddening to hear from my perspective and hearing just how different the male and female world looks like in video games. A female friend of mine that I play games with almost every week always tells me about how she's a moderator for this female-only discord and how they won't allow any males in there because of all the harassment they have gone through which was shocking first time I heard about it. So to the female gamers out there, I can't say I understand your pain beacuse ive never been through something like that but I hope things change soon because this is fucked
Thank you for that. I wish we didn't have to segregate ourselves sometimes, but as I woman I know how it feels to be unable to speak online without being attacked by a bunch of guys. Now and then we need a place where we can talk without the sexist comments.
Putting their names/nicknames on the overlay would help viewers (and maybe the participants as well?).. At least I would find it easier to follow the convos.
I was one of those girls that would say they dont get along with other girls to avoid getting into dumb fights. I one time had a girl attack me as soon i joined a discord call. But i only just got out of that mindset that all girls online is like that and started to make female friends.
Proud of you 👏 I used to be like that too until I actually started interacting with more women in a genuine way & I found that I love the friendships I make with my girl-friends.
i feel that, Im a girl too and when another girl is in a game im so paranoid that if I talk they will start shitting on everything I do or say. Like some girls will just straight up ask a guy to be a simp and tk us wtf?? Do u have any advice on getting out of this mindset??
Oml I relate. There have been a few Overwatch games where a girl gets pissy with me just cause I’m a girl? I don’t understand it, I always assume it’s cause they feel threatened and feel they need to prove themselves to be the better female? But idk
@@opolelopah2781 I had no idea this happened. I've don't think I've ever really been in a random online match with more than one girl at a time (who aren't already friends with each other) and even then I don't really use voice chat so I'm surprised to hear that that's even a thing. I think it probably comes from competitiveness. I guess for certain girls when you're the only girl in a game you feel special, so when another girl jumps in they feel like their position is being threatened. Some girls are just vain like that I guess and want all the attention even if its at the expense of putting another girl down.
@@goddesskoala7907 That's so shitty. I really don't get that, because the whole problem is toxicity in game towards woman and then some woman do it to eachother. + Getting in game with another girl is so much fun. Just be nice D:
That reaction was actually so funny Also, what was he thinking in that moment. She seems nervous, let’s add pressure? xD I think it’s because he’s used to asking that in 1on1 sessions, where that question doesn’t draw additional attention from others and allows to put the person at ease
If you actually recognize that somebody has nerves and get it out in the open it does help believe it or not. Half of being nervous is wondering if people notice that you’re nervous/trying to hide it. By seeing that your nervousness is recognized and it wasn’t a big deal at all, it can take some of the pressure off.
@@fractal_mind562 Dude I wasn't describing a certain situation, if a group of people have the same opinion on every topic then the most probable answer is yes, they have been brainwashed. And league is toxic but it might be way less toxic than you think.
@@birdbig6852 if this was the same opinion on "every" topic then sure. But they just all had the same opinions on how much it sucks when they get targeted harassment for being women in games. That is just agreement on one topic not every topic.
Tbh i recognize i do that too, just a habit from seeing carried gfs in competitive games, they are usually extremely toxic as well, tough that goes for any duo you meet. Also to be fair i never met a carried bf, at least not in competitive.
Thank u for this video Dr. K! This is so important, I really don't think that most men understand the amounts of harassment girls have to go through! It's insane, the "jokes", slurs, sexual harassment, men interacting with you only to get something out of u and getting mad when they don't, making u feel like u owe them. It's so telling when Dr. K is sitting there all confused from a super vague statement one of the girls said while all the other girls are nodding in confirmation because that vague statement was all they needed to relate and think of like 100 instances where it's happened to them. People need to see how tiresome it is and how much girls need to give up so that men don't have to give up their freedom to harass girls ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’ve been playing games online since I was 12. csgo, siege, overwatch etc. and the amount of uncomfortable encounters I’ve had while speaking into my mic is sad really. Guys have asked creepy requests, followed and team killed me, kicked me from the match. It’s frustrating for sure, and weird to hear as a 12-16 year old.
Hey Lilyml7, I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences. I definitely had some shitty encounters myself but I'm glad you're speaking up about it. I think that's one of the best things that we can do, that and educate ourselves and the people around us. Feel free to drop me a message if you feel like talking about this or anything else!
I have a sister your age and it scares me to death thinking about the stuff that she could experience if I wasn’t overprotective of her. The idea that grown men could bully small children’s baffles me but at the same time I understand that most of them are sad in their own lives and lash out at others. Thank you for speaking out.
It has nothing to do with ur gender. In CSGO if u use the mic in a public game someone will say shut up. Ive played online games for only a few months and had both good and bad experiences just like everything else in life.
As a woman who loves playing video games, it just breaks my heart hearing this cause its all true. I've experienced this and still do and it's so frustrating to me. I belong in a video game community that sees my assigned sex as a weakness and that I can't be competitive. It's frustrating trying to talk to my male friends about this and they always tell me " oh if you don't want to be harassed then don't talk and don't pick the characters that are cute." Males make up the majority of the video game communities and it sucks when some are willing to watch their female friends or love ones being harassed ( even though they themselves don't harass women online )and do nothing about it. You are part of the problem if you just watch it happen. If any of you are moved by this video please start speaking up when you see this behavior and do it sincerely.
well youre apart of the problem with 60% of men being lonely, you wmn need to initiate dates more and give boring, frustrated and angry guys a chance. see how easy it was to blame you for something
This issue more than anything shows both genders have some real issues, and rational people on both sides should actually sit and listen to them. Not being able to go anywhere and just unwind without a bunch of random thirsty dudes getting up in your grill, especially even gaming wtf would be extraordinarily annoying, because you are like an npc in how people treat you. Conversely, many women don't ever truly consider the depth of the issues men actually face, and I'd say the worst of them don't even care/happy they suffer. I feel this talk really does show that we need to find a way to come together, and see each side as a human, not a statistic of previous experiences or numbers in general.
So as a guy that struggled with women for a long time I experienced the feelings that make guys say and do such horrible things. For me it never escalated into hateful behavior or messages outwardly, but definitely felt the urged to do so. For me it came back to having no control over my success with women. Back then I didn't know that letting go over the control, letting her decide if she likes me, and being okay with not being liked made me more attractive. That realization of giving up control is something I could never have gotten in a online gaming community where meeting a nice girl feels like finding a shiny Pokemon. Stepping into a social world where there wasn't such a big divide made me realize that, but if wouldn't have done that, I feel like I would have become such a toxic dude. To me it feels like guys that have similar experience, where they have same realizations and find success with girls, just jump ship and start, you know, in a way hating on their former selfs. Which I get, because yeah, no means no, and that should be clear, but repeating that message to someone over and over again doesn't make him understand his emotions.
"Back then I didn't know that letting go over the control, letting her decide if she likes me, and being okay with not being liked made me more attractive. " That sounds like: just accept women are omnipotent and have all the authority and control over you and the only legitimate aim of your life is to please their tastes. Not buying into it. BTW, I was never a gamer and never really struggled with women because I wasn't too invested in dating or anything like that. That's probably why.
Projection much? Understanding a woman is autonomous and can have her own feelings about you or not is not assuming she is God or giving her authority over YOU. How would you feel if I forced you to eat shit when you don't want to? That is exactly what you do when you force women to like you. HUMANS HAVE AUTONOMY THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXERCISE IT.
You can also try to learn that not every interaction with a woman has to be for the purpose of hooking up, you can just be friends with other women and that can expand your horizons of human understanding even more.
One of my takes on being a woman in gaming. I feel like girl gamers often become acclimated to a fault to the attention that comes with being the token girl in a group. There's a sort of territorialism that stems from your status in the group being tied to your gender. So when another girl suddenly enters the scene, there can be an initial awkwardness that can go either way. You want to befriend the girl because you can probably relate to each other on so many levels you can't with the guys and some of it is because of the absence of sexual attraction, but on the other hand, you might also be cautious of or even hostile toward this new girl because she has a great potential to "steal" some of the attention and adoration you enjoyed until now because you were the only girl of the group. This excess of attention and adoration can serve as a crutch to girls who have low self-esteem. I've even lost a friend in a traumatizing episode because of how this culture enables paranoia, ego, and territorialism off the back of insecurity in girl gamers.
This was well worded A+ my friend group has had this happen we only had one female friend in our friend group and later my friend brought in another female friend and we all became close friends but the girls in our newly expanded friend group did not get along at all the boys and I were curious as to why that was then the new girl stated dating one of our friends and she turned him against all of us and it was a big explosion and the only people who are still friends from that group are me and my bestfriend from high school it was crazy. Not exactly what you went through but I can see where that comes from
Yeah... The environment can really enable or rationalise insecurities that are unhealthy. I think not only is it difficult to befriend a guy online, over time I think that perhaps even girls have become over-thinkers in interactions with girls. "Will she think i'm stealing attention. is it a crime to join in, is she judging me more/less than the rest of the group, are girls the cause of drama for talking...etc". Till this day, I think honest conversations might help address the over-whelming pool of assumptions/expectations people have of each-other. It seems people's intentions are just not clear enough and we have started to predict/avoid problems rather than trying to change things/solve problems that exist.
One of the greatest take aways I found from this video (although I'm only halfway through) is that I think most guys engage in this behavior or thought process, but don't actually take it to the stage where it's actually abusive. I remember playing WoW 10 years ago and playing with a girl in my guild. She was very pretty and eventually someone on the server gave her a spectral tiger for free. I was really jealous and thought to myself that she was probably manipulating that guy. Maybe that's what was happening, but in hindsight it's equally possible that she never asked for anything and he gave her that in order to "grind reputation" with her. Of course I kept my thoughts to myself because I don't like gossiping about people. I'm also guilty of "grinding reputation" to try and get a girl to like me, but when it doesn't work out for me, I'm sad as opposed to angry or vengeful. I think that's why when these harassment stories come out, we instinctually defend these guys because we can see ourselves in them. We know that all it would've taken is for us to react differently to a rejection or spread rumors about a girl because she was getting a lot of attention and then we'd be the ones getting flak. I think a lot of my problems early on were that I got a lot of info on how to "get girls" from pickup websites that treat women as objects rather than actual people. Dr. K I think it'd be really interesting to get a group of guys together to talk about their interactions with women and kinda correct where you think they went wrong.
Glad to see you and some others be able to be so reflective and find some perspective on things you did/thought in the past. Thank you for sharing and doing the work. Keep up the good reflecting.
Wow, this is the most refreshingly introspective take on interactions between men and women that I have seen in a while, if ever. It also gave me some food for thought. Thank you for sharing.
How do you find out a girl is a girl in WoW without them mentioning it? If they do mention it I ask myself why? That answer I would assume is for attention.
Why do guys talk in a co-op and team based game? Do you not have friends or understand how a team works? It required communication, typing in chat isn't often sufficient as some people never even read it and do their own thing instead of being a team player, your comment is a massive self report.
Why do guys talk in a co-op and team based game? Do you not have friends or understand how a team works? It required communication, typing in chat isn't often sufficient as some people never even read it and do their own thing instead of being a team player, your comment is a massive self report.
I just want to give Dr. K another example of "the conversation turns weird". One time a dude out of random "slid into my DMs" and said "wanna play TF2?" and I said "no". The dude's reply was "Wow, that's it? No 'how is your day?' Nothing?" I've never seen my husband manipulated into feeling bad for answering a yes/no question with a yes/no online.
This is consistently one of the best youtube and twitch channels these days. They don't just stick to a niche, Dr K. really tackles all sorts of problems.
This was interesting. I've always hidden my gender when gaming and usually avoid voice chats these days. Discord is pretty bad too, I've been in a couple servers where I got along with people just fine and tried socializing in the VC, but was completely kicked from the server once they heard my female voice. I understand that they think it's funny, but it has made me avoid socializing online at all anymore. It's a lonely feeling, especially right now when I go weeks without speaking to anyone. Just want to talk about games and laugh-off some stress. It comes with the territory I suppose.
If it makes you feel better... i was born with a cleft palate so i sound really garbled and flemmy just due to the resonant style of my voice. When there's no girls to bully, it's usually me. I've never even downloaded discord because naaaaaaaa. Not seeking sympathy or anything, just something i relate to.
Chip James This broke my heart dude. I have a thick southern accent so I get singled out in VC a lot too. It sucks to be singled out for something you can’t control. Try to remember that if someone picks on you for something stupid like that they’re not worth your time and not friend material. I hope you find a group of real friends someday and if you already do make sure they know how much you mean to them, real friends are a treasure.
@@twitchtheking4950 hey thanks man. I love when people who have anonymity retain their humanity and try to uplift people for literally no gain. Thankfully in my case it's helped developed my wit and thickened my skin a little bit... however.. this shit is present for girls in games and out of them and i feel like i might i have strayed from the op a little. Stay tough ladies.
Thank you for discussing this, it's very brave. I have been a gamer for 15 years now (am 26) and honestly for the last few years I gave up playing any kind of online multiplayer game because I am too exhausted to constantly be the 'b|tch' that can't take a 'joke' even though 99% of the time that's all the discussions are around -- gross, sexist, xenophobic or racist insults and degrading commentary not just from males to females but in general to each other. I am at a point in my life where I just play my single player adventures and can't be bothered, but I realise that's me having given up and I'm uncomfortable with that because I do believe we can have a good time together online without all the toxicity.
You have to play with friends if you can't handle toxicity. Random lobbies with random people from all over the world will always be toxic, that's just how it is.
Sometimes, as a manipulation tactic, when a a person does something immoral he can slander the victim's reputation, so when they try to open up about the shitty experience they had with the person the victim is deemed untrustworthy.
"Its just a joke", "I was drunk", "I was not my self", "you have misread the situation in some other way" is another one of those tactics employed to manipulate the perception of the situation by the victims and the others. What it does essentially is remove responsibility from the person doing the immoral act, allows them to avoid rejection, and makes the victim question if it was actually a joke and they are at fault here.
What I believe the root of this whole problem is that growing up guys tend to view themselves as seperate entities from girls, this is normally enforced by the whole stereotypes about what guys can and can't do and the whole girls vs boys things. So at some point they only see the differences and not the similarities. Most of these differences they focus on is the belief that girls get everything handed to them easily or the fact that they are literally the thing you need to have a perfect life. This either spins into jealousy or desire. When you then slap them onto the web where there's percieved no consequences for their actions it's obvious that people with this belief will act out. After all there's no "laws" and the closest thing to that is being banned from a site or game, which in most cases are simply temporary or they can simply just go to another place. As a man myself while I have seen a lot of what these women talked about I have known about this, we clearly do but I don't think we think about the severity and consistency of it. Like hell I didn't even realize that young kids could be harassed like this the moment they step foot into a chat which I absolutely find disgusting. The only way I can think about how to change things is starting at that root, with young people and getting them to interact with each other in their school years. It may not stop the problem but would dramatically change it.
People should address double standards then instead of framing it as pathology. I think the feeling that men are policed more and have more consequences gives them a feeling of wanting male spaces to get away which are currently framed as something bad and that is leading to this harrassment reaction.
I agree, if adults painted the picture of we have our differences but are still human when addressing gender it would be better. Rather then just saying females are different then men and should be treated differently.
most girls have way more things handed to them in life. They are treated in society as seperate entities. This is not a stereotypes this is what most guys see around them. Most parents listen to what their daughtes say, give them everything they ask for. This is my experience and the experience of almost all the man that I know.
This made me realize that I have automatically dismissed my former friends who where both guys and girls with they're daily problems because of me assuming that it's something that they have done wrong first, which is fucked up in my part and I did it a lot in high school especially with girls when it comes to high school drama. Thinking about made me really cringe on my past decisions.
It's easier to dismiss their feelings if their reasoning is in question, I'm definitely guilty of this too in the past, guys and girls... "What did you do to make them say that" sort of thing, and it just pushes people away from opening up to anyone. These streams are so powerful
hey man. you're not perfect, just like everybody else. huge props to you for reflecting and doing your best to change. I know countless people who do stuff like that and then refuse to change or look at it from a different perspective. that's where the real problem occurs imo. not when you slip up, but when you refuse to see things from a different perspective.
I think a big item that is not discussed is a lot of gamers (I have been at this point) who are male are not in a relationship and games are helping them get awhile from that fact in real life. On top of this it is common knowledge that people tell you to find a partner with a common interest. So you have a lot of people who are unhappy with their social/relationship life then when a girl comes into a space with a ratio of 1:100 female to male and they feel attacked because the ratio is so unbalanced. And because of this when girls who are gamers push off all these guys the guys get offended and lash out because if a gamer girl doesn't like you it makes you feel like there are literally 0 girls on the planet who will like you and it takes your mind to a dark place. and in regards to girls being called attention seekers who talk a lot like the girl talking about WoW is being because a girl gives you a huge advantage in games because so many people are willing to help you. Which again makes guys mad because it makes life and now the game they are playing completely rigged against them.
This is the best statement I've seen to explain the behaviour. To girls it's just another guy who wants to date them or have sex with them and they get tired of it. To guy it's just another girls who refused to try to like him after he got dumped every single time in real life and in the games.
I genuinely like how you were able to type this out without speculating on girls' behavior and motives. I think I can understand where you're coming from as my youth was also pretty fucking frustrating both in terms of success and in terms of partnerships. Can we agree though that this doesn't excuse behaving this way? You don't get a free pass for sexual harassement if you suffer enough otherwise. Especially against someone who is by no means involved in your problems. Many people use addictive games like WOW to give up on life and delve into addiction in order to feel happy. That's not healthy though and certainly not a way to solve your rl problems. At some point we all become adults and should take responsibility for the consequences of our actions instead of screaming "but what this other injustice that has nothing to do with my current fuck-up?" to excuse our own bad behavior.
@@couchpotatoe91 yeah, i dont think it excuses the behaviour but helps us understand why it happens, and hopefully provides us with a clue on how to stop or prevent it.
@@aquasnippy Well, I'm no expert, but if someboedy describes what they want to do with your body it's sexual harassement in my eyes. Same goes for wanting to date someone, asking for nudes, stalking them etc. You don't have to touch someone to sexually harass them. That said it doesn't matter what kind of harassement this is, we're not determining jail time here. Both are fucked up.
Yoooo thanks for this video. I remember when I was 16 and I finally saved up enough for an Xbox, only to get promptly bullied off multiplayer games 😂. My favourite was when they’d insist I was a prepubescent boy before believing there was a girl in the match. After getting Skyrim, I never looked back to multiplayer games. Been playing nearly exclusively single player RPGs ever since haha.
Damn. That sucks because you're missing out on Dota 2. If I were you, I'd just read up on stoicism and laugh the "bullying" away like the big brain guys do in competitive or multiplayer games. It's only bullying if you feel diminished as a person after hearing it. I get flamed all the time in-game and I just turn it back on them and see how mad I can make them. It's a hobby of mine.
@@Ancor3 and the worst part as much as you guy's or simps your choice don't want to realize or accept it IT actually also happens to guys so stop that simping/talkingpeopleaftertheirmouthjustcuzthey'refemale
Shit Owl Guys don’t get sexual comments in online games not nearly on the level of women. Pull your head outta your ass and actually listen to people besides reactionaries for once.
For some feedback on interviews with multiple people like this, I'd recommend some distinct way of showing exactly whos talking, with a border around their webcam or something. It gets irritating when theres a visual and i have to decipher exactly whos talking. Other than that, love it, this is some of my favorite stuff on RUclips at the moment, its always so thought-provoking and interesting.
to add into this, i play games with my guy friends a lot, and ive become desensitized to all the sexual comments towards me when i even utter a word in the voice chat. i.e, i was playing the new CoD with my guy friends and left my mic open so i could also talk to the other teammates, when i greeted them/ said "hello" i was immediately met with someone saying that my voice was hot and they'd want to fuck me. it's sad that ive had to build up a apathetic facade to all this, and my guy friends were taken aback by what they said as well. the positive side to all of this is that i'm glad there's a lot more female streamers/girl gamers to know that im not alone in what i wanna enjoy by myself or with others.
Good, you developed a thick skin, just like guys have had to do, FOREVER. Men in MALE spaces shouldn't have to change to accommodate women. You won't find me joining a women's knitting club or some make-up community and start demanding that the women start catering to my fee-fees.
Cod is a cesspool, I remember one time a guy opened up like that on a girl in chat and she proceed to roast him over the mic for the entire session. She was so good at it, were really good friends now and I couldn't ask for a better person to watch my back in any shooter games.
Body Bags For Commie Fags yeah man, the thick skin is necessary imo, but sometimes those comments really get to u, and i understand that a lot of dudes have heard worse. I think it's wacky on both genders to really interact like this online honestly
I have no idea what "the solution" is to the issues discussed here, but I'm so glad they're being discussed and explored here. Maybe the thing we all need to do is to have conversations like this!
As a dude and someone that just wants to game, having those types of guys in game and in your team is the most annoying thing ever. Most of the time if one guy stands up for the girl and tells them to shut the fuck up, it works, but you do get those idiots out there that wont stop. Yeah its a girl, online playing video games. Its nothing special JUST PLAY THE GAME.
(Male) I don't know what to say. A lot of the bullying sounds like when I was on the internet around 10 yrs playing WoW in Ventrillo. Being excluded because of my voice, pronunciation, etc. The fact that I was better than most DPS and deserved the loot despite my age difference put me in a weird spot. I think its just stems from society/community and how it develops. Loved this talk. More motivation why to talk to girls irl and approach. Sorry for your experience girls.
@@ornf_ bunch of women in the streaming and gaming industry came out and shared their experiences regarding sexual harrasment. A bunch of guys in the gaming/streaming industry were called out, and some of them were found to be talking with minors. Streamers like Fed admitted to sexually harrasing Yvonnie and Lily, two female streamers in offlineTV. All the allegations came out this week, and it seems super bad for streaming in general.
people starve to death but rich streamers half naked require respect, respect my gender while i disrespect cows being raped in slaughterhouse for my taste bud.. similar to streaming but the cow isnt concentent and the streamer is.
I’m seeing some people in the comments with some odd attitudes. Absolutely, men are also victims of particular issues. But right now we’re talking about women, and that isn’t a diminishment to other experiences of other groups.
I personally was one of those "It's not that black lives matter. It's all lives." and honestly, it's just the fear of being left behind. Similarly, people are dismissive and harmful towards these types of causes because they feel it can "grow out of hand" with no real evidence to prove so. A lot of us are probably thinking "Aren't we going to be on the other end of the stick, soon?" if stuff like cancel-culture grows out of hand. My new view point is to just chill. Let things move along as they are. A good cause is a good cause, so only step up when things actually go wrong. Dismissing a cause because it isn't "the perfect, All Lives Matter" is incredibly harmful.
@Thomas Clifford No, you can't and that's a pretty tortured way to put it, it's not a matter of not validating, it's getting spoken for in an actively undermining way, so I don't blame that reaction. If both genders are dismissive of the other, I wonder which one you are talking about.
to me at least its not about men vs women. its about overblowing the issue and expecting everyone on the internet to be a nice person. The world is full of assholes and will always be full of assholes, its impossible to expect communities to not have assholes and everyone to be nice to everyone. but thats the smaller issue Why i think its overblown is because the internet offers us so many tools to block said assholes from our social circle so to speak. muting, blocking, reporting for gameflow disturbance is almost always available(although being inted because you didn t give attention to one of those cunts is pretty infuriating and badly delt with in certain games). now i will agree that women probably do deal with more of this shit and a different version of this shit than men but it doesn t absolve them from their own responsibility to curate their environment i feel.
It breaks my heart to hear that these girls/women actually feel guilty for rejecting people. Imagine a heterosexual guy, lets call him Bob, who gets rejected by his crush and tells her that its his fault that he's now depressed. Now, imagine that an 80 year old woman, or a man, or someone else that Bob did not see as a viable sexual candidate, told Bob "if you don't have sex with me, I will be depressed". Maybe there exists a rare Bob that will feel responsible and guilty for turning them down, but the VAST majority of Bobs aren't going to think of themselves as doing anything wrong. Bob, on average, has no compunction about turning down a woman who's too fat or too tall or has a weird looking nose, no matter how sad that makes her. These men don't want a world in which looks don't matter, they want a world in which men don't have to care about how they look but women do. And that isnt something anyone should feel guilty about shitting on
Not to be confused and triggered, but guys also deal with ' what do you say that is right? ' I've noticed when trying to talk to women on gaming chat sites there is no right thing to say, they'll either ignore you, talk to you or insult you for the person they think you are it feels like there is nothing I can do or say because they've already judged you on being male. As you age, you start to pry the difference between your self and your expectations with people being depressed and lonely more these days, they also feel reaching out to someone is a way to ' fix ' their situation. There is a fucked up dynamic on both sides where women have to suffer because men often feel they need a woman for x or x and then women expect all men to be that way and treat all men like they want x or x from them. Personally as someone who grew up without a mother I found it made me more dependent on wanting that kind of love from someone which is becoming more common in this generation with broken homes. On the other hand some women play into this for money, fame or attention which also causes a cycle in males. A revelation I just had thinking on this subject is a lot of guys feel low esteem and unwanted. A lot of them try to talk to women honestly and try there best only to be ignored, ghosted or labelled some women call you good, a nice person some women put you down hard. Personally as a kid I was hit on by older women and also encountered women who were sexual with me, which has kind of imprinted on me and made things a little difficult in later life maybe other guys have had the same experience and don't know how to act in a normal relationship because of this. It is an interesting side topic for this discussion. Tl;dr things are changing and its hard to deal with those changes with different expectations and toxic things on both sides and that creates a cycle of low esteem on both sides. --
This was very enlightening and encouraged internal reflection for me. With that said, in terms of what women gamers can do, I would encourage them to keep interacting in games openly. One said that the behaviour is more prevalent in some games- My personal assumption is it is more common in games with a lesser female presence. WoW and other MMOs seem to have a larger female presence, with many couples playing together and such. This could just be because of the need for co-operation in raids and such. Perhaps there are reasons OW is more popular with women- or not. Again it is possible that they are just more vocal there than in other shooters because the gameplay dictates the necessity of communication and team-play. This might be related to the thread that was brought up about region being a factor. The general consensus is that NA has better team-play but not as high performing individuals, whereas EU is more toxic with a higher focus on individual performance. Hence toxicity in general, and thus also woman-trolling, might be more prevalent on EU. So I regret how I have perceived and interacted with women in games at times. I am not toxic or sexual or harassing, but I am still prejudiced for sure. For me it is a combination of surprise that there is a girl actually talking, which is undeniably an event due to its rarity, but also my own ego and a natural feeling of the need to perform in front of them. I do suffer from feelings of inferiority in general and so that likely plays a part. It is something I have been working on with just a vague sense of it not "being me" before this video. I deal with toxicity very poorly myself so I think it was an empathetic reaction to my own behaviour. After hearing about the frequency and effects on the victims, I have a new level of clarity and it has actually altered my framework. So thanks to everyone involved for that. With that said, please keep fighting the good fight. Normalize women in games. I think some guys (including me) treat games as a way to avoid their insecurities about social interactions so when that avoidance opportunity gets interrupted they don't know how to react. It is not healthy I admit. Stand up for yourself and for your friends. (I love the advice for defending someone- make it about the perpetrator not the victim). I think that will really tackle one of the root causes- "There are no girls on the internet". We need more wider discussions like this, too. If it wasn't for my unwillingness to be on camera due to lack of self esteem, I would be happy to discuss my own perspective with Dr K. Full disclosure- I am a bit like the "incels" interviewed- not exactly the stereotypical woman troll - (do we need a new word for this by the way?) - but I definitely think I have some of the same thought processes as them, and I have previous experiences to share on the topic.
The toxicity stems from the competitive nature of games and their popularity. That's why Siege, LoL, Dota, and so on are such bad places. I think that difference between NA and Eu comes from the simple fact that Europe has many countries with different languages and cultures. I have often been in situations where communicating even basic things with other players was an impossible task. It also makes grouping with randoms pretty uncommon.
Personally, as a woman, I never play online games that are cooperative or require interactions with other players unless I know the players irl and they are my friends, I want to play in order to have a good time, and I know that I don't need to compete either cause if I want to show off, I can always beat souls games that are way more difficult than most online games or do speedruns. I am not anyone's mother, especially I don't play videogames to be someone's mother.
I found the comment about perceiving hunger to be interesting. Particularly spot on. It seems like this bandaid fix. I think the uncertainty on what they're looking for in uncertainty bred in men to an exceeding degree. Emotional connections, expressing emotions and platonic love is discouraged. Contact is impressed upon people to be acceptable in sexual context, conquest and acquisition of a partner and fulfilling these needs. Sometimes people just want a friend, a partner, some contact or just a vent. It's like those things are unacceptable, so you never know it's what you need and you just keep filling the void with those kinds of actions and seeking out the wrong things. I felt caught in that net for a long time.
The issue with simps is obsessive interest. Simps can be on the stalkerish side, and there are also some people who go from assholes to simps, but then thats an act because now you're a "challenge". Both assholes and simps can be tiring to deal with and/or a creeper threat.
The sad thing is you’re right, a lot of guys are not socialized due to toxic gender roles in our society and this results in things like bullying, sexism, etc.
They probably haven't because women are also very judgemental towards men, and most of men never have relationships nowadays after feminist sexual liberation
Strategic games tend to be more toxic, the less accepting of casuals a game is, the more 'jokes" you get, from my perspective. On the other side, the more accepting of casuals, the more romantic messages you get.
Hell no, replace the word "strategic" with "male". If a fandom or game is heavily male numerically it will be extremely toxic to female players. The more female players leak into a fandom the less toxic it gets towards women as men get over women being there. If it was just toxic to casuals you wouldn't get harassed the first time you speak on voice chat.
You are a great Therapist Dr. Kanojia and I send you my condolences about Bryon. The videos hit home and I'm learning so much from them dealing with depression for a long time. Been meditating and that helps and wanted to say that you did great work with him.
I remember a few months ago, I had a dumb guy on my team in call of duty say that 'go back to the kitchen' joke and I just said to him 'go back to fixing your house' and 'go back to your garage with your tools'.. he pretty much didn't say much after that xD, but like there are worse things said in the gaming community by some f*knuts to women that just make me want to go through the mic and slap them (like in ghostdad (even though in that, it was strangling))
I'd like to share a little story about a time I "helped" a woman that I used to play Dota with. I don't consider myself a simp in the slightest BUT there was a time that I needed to intervene in a situation because I was an admin in the discord channel. The woman in question had been a channel regular. Another male player who was newer to the channel started asking the female deeply personal questions to the point where it was obvious she was being put in the spotlight because he had some weird ideas about women prior to joining the channel. I let it play out for a bit between them because she was capable of defending herself but I had to eventually give the guy an ultimatum to either chill out or get kicked. Mostly because he was making the channel uncomfortable for her but the thing is...I would have done the same thing for a guy. So I don't think it was simping.
@JonnyC 289 but the thing is...I have. I agree that as a male, I'm probably less likely to view another male as a victim or whatever but when stuff has gotten heated and out of control with guys in the channel, I've done the same thing.
EDIT: oh hey someone mentioned it 46:50 In part, some of this is evolved from the old rule on the internet "there are no girls on the internet" and "tits or gtfo" when involving women in online discussions. The foundation of that rule was that women generally are generally put on a pedestal by guys, because of potential dating opportunities or because of social reasons (girl can ruin your dating chances or social group). But with the internet, neither of these things exist, so they are useless drivel to focus on. In comparison, guys talk a lot different to each other than to girls, much of the time being absurdly abrasive to each other, so the general rule was to treat everyone as a "guy" regardless, otherwise it would tend to derail conversations. Pretty much the exact opposite of this mindset is now what we know as being a "simp", where all they do is praise a girl for their presence and acknowledgement. In some ways, I think a lot of women don't understand how guys interact with each other. But I know with the internet it removes the whole social backlash aspect to any social relationship, so the most negative aspects of people will always be amplified. And we have to realize the people that use the internet the most and use it for socializing generally aren't the people that were socially successful in their actual daily lives. And with these internet conversations, I think it'd help for people to take them less seriously than they do. Words and these people can never hurt you, as long as you don't link you real identity to online identity.
Women are sooo clueless about how guys interact with each other, and they sure have a lot of audacity telling us how _we're_ the ignorant ones doing everything wrong
I just want to say that this stream was super enlightening. As a male who plays video games often I've never really thought about how oppressed women must feel when they play games. I think for the most part males who play video don't even have this on their radar which is something I think really needs to change in the gaming community. I don't now whether I've been one of these people who are unintentionally toxic in video games, but I know after seeing this stream that a big reason why we guys don't fight for this issue is because we barely even know about it, or if we do then we avoid thinking about it. Thank you doctor k for being a part of this community and helping all of us grow
Great to see you touch on this. It's true that there is a lot of toxic behaviour towards women in gaming, but often times those same people are toxic to everyone. It's part of a bigger problem. One thing that is equal for every one is the mute button (which is available in pretty much any multiplayer game) I do think other guys can help out the situation some times. I found the best way to go about this with out being instantly deemed "white-knight-simp-cuck" is to talk to the girl instead of the toxic person. Ask if they feel harassed. Encourage them to speak up. If the toxic person responds poorly to being to being told off, tell him to fuck off and tell the girl to mute the clown.
In my youth girls playing games seemed rare,but my friends n i always wished girls played games more back then because we liked girls and wanted to interact with them more. Sad times what males of today have become. You are all brave and beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
A lot of the "How do we fix this?" comes down to teaching our next generations how to behave appropriately in society, even under the guise of anonymity on the internet. There comes a point in each individual's life that they're beyond repair from a simple slap on the wrist/incremental redirection. It would require an entire restructuring of the way they think, their habits and how they operate in order to get rid of the toxic behaviors that have been bred into them, through their experiences in the world and on the internet, in any sort of a timely manner. In my opinion it requires an entire disconnect from the internet for future generations, during their early formative years, to make sure they're taught how to properly interact with other human beings. Socialization on the internet is pure chaos and socializing kids in pure chaos, where there are no real repercussions for their actions, has led us to where we are now. People need structure in order to operate in society in a constructive way.
Anonymity and behaving don’t mix ever. Millions of people around the world use the anonymity of the internet to vent their anger and frustration, and I think that’s actually a good thing. Because if it doesn’t go somewhere it either stays bottled up or it goes somewhere else. I personally workout four days a week to vent my pent up energy but I know many people use the internet as a tool to relieve stress; even if it means saying bad things to another person
Less: Huh? How does that apply to this conversation? None of these women were talking about opening up emotionally on the internet. They were just being themselves in a game and yet they can't do that without being targeted.
36:30 That's exactly why I don't speak in games... I don't even play games like rainbow 6 siege or overwatch anymore, I've switched almost completely to casual games cause they are single player or - when multiplayer - there's way less toxicity and/or no need to speak
Reading comments like yours really breaks my heart. I have a little sister that loves to play competitive games and I fear the harassment she will face if she continues to be active online in the future. Honestly I think the only solution to all of this would be to call out the jerks and mock them. Hopefully in the future we’ll be nicer to everyone.
hmm, so i met this girl a long time ago. i never had a father and i never had anyone to share anything with, not a single person would understand me and i've been alone and dependant on no one else then myself for as long as i can remember. this girl ended up giving me all those things i never had. she ended up being drained by me that was an empty body and when she got too low she ended it. wchich is fair, but then what happened was that i was left all alone, with no one else, back to square one which is a time i can't even remember. i ende up trying to kill myself, not because i was trying to get her attention, but because i felt like the whole world was falling down on me and since i had no one to go to for help, since no one would understand me, i had to take matters in my own hands and end my life before i get smashed by this big world smashing me. maybe something terrible happened to me when i was a child, but i don't trust a soul other then Dr. K, and all the poeple that have gone through similar stuff. maybe this will give some girls a perspective on why the guy might be doing what he is doing. me and the girl are on good terms now and we talk about life and stuff like that. this isn't the only reason, but you know, i feel like i see this in a lot of people. fyi im all fine now, figure out alot, but most importantly i have found the tools to deal with all of this shit.
14:30 Siege is notoriously toxic, especially for women. The community is even toxic to the women who work in the industry i.e. casters, presenters, pro players.
This was interesting thanks for sharing! Whilst my experiences as a female gamer have not been as extreme as these ladies, I often have the sensation of having to defend myself and my interests. I get the vibe a lot of men are suspicious of women in these communities, its like they think we're only here for attention? It can be quite alienating... It's probably why I stick to solo games.
I get suspicious because women are usually very hostile, and they don't accept criticism without taking it to personal or feminist view. My fear is with more women in games, they'll complain more and ruin game experience formen use to relax and forget about our society's problems, including forgetting the oppressive feminism itself.
@@away5534 This isn't an insult, but please, get some help. If you honestly feel that women are "usually very hostile" and complain and ruin everything you enjoy then you really need to root out where that comes from and address it.
@@DimaRakesah perhaps it comes from women being hostile to the things he enjoys. You should go tell the millions of women calling men trash to go get some help, but let's be real you don't care about that at all.
I know there is a lot going on, but talking about eating disorders like binge eating, restricting, purging, etc. would be really interesting. I know tons of people who deal with it on a daily basis including myself
One thing that wasn't mentioned in the video but is relevant is that men use anonymity to vent their frustration with or lack of interaction with women. Because of this they express their frustration in an anonymous atmosphere where they can rip women apart or pursue them without consequences that would exist IRL. Then because men band together in pursuit and women are a minority and often don't back each other up, and men are pushed from defending with the simp or whiteknight label, it is perpetuated.
in my personal experience i was asked if i am a girl and the players behaviour never changed. they were never mean to me, acted mysogynistic or treated me unfairly. although i could see in my own behaviour (by behaviour i mean generally thoughts and very rarely messages) a bias towards other women/girls who play the game, as in if i saw a "girly" name sporting a female character i would ask them if they're a girl and i would sometimes make comments like "typical gamer girl, losing". i noticed it and after i became aware i started controlling it more. its interesting how as an actual "gamer girl" i would almost stigmatize someone of the same kind.
It's often internalised misogyny. And also you are encouraged to lash out at other women to be accepted by and fit in with the male group. You become "one of the guys" by being "not like other girls." So it makes you feel special for being different, but also accepted as part of the group. It can be a highly addictive combo.
As a girl who plays Siege, it is definitely the roll of the dice, especially if you're solo-queuing. It's easier to try and convince them that you're a small boy than a woman, because they bully kids or 'squeakers' but at least they probably won't harass you or team kill you, where they will if you're a girl. It can be really rough. Not all guys are like that, of course. But it really is like a 50/50 or higher chance that at least 1 of the 4 other players are going to harass you, whether they're riding on the meme ("IS THAT A GORL?!") or if they genuinely hate women. It can really ruin the mood while gaming. And you know you can't mess up, because if you do, then it's because you're a girl and not because you had a bad game or that they're actively ruining your vibe.
52:27 ruclips.net/video/0thpEyEwi80/видео.html What she starts talking about here is now referred to as "born sexy yesterday", she began to describe it but got a little lost in the details. It's mainly about finding a woman who is immature mentally yet mature sexually who doesn't yet know about other men being better than him, so she treats him like he's top shit.
Simping, sexualizing, treating women like NPCs, and overall toxic behavior towards women in gaming is a real problem that most guys don't experience and don't understand. We need to do something to tone all that toxic shit down. That being said, I'm not sure whether most women actually want to be treated like a guy. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of women that have the character for it and can fit right into a group of guys that shit-talk each other left and right. This is assuming, of course, none of the guys do any creepy shit. But I've also encountered many women in gaming that will say "just treat me like one of the guys" and then fold the second someone jabs at that with something gender-neutral like "you're trash" or even non-compliance like "you can find your own ammo". Not wanting men to be creeps is absolutely justified. That's something nobody should have to endure. But don't tell men that you want to be treated like one of the guys if what you actually want is special treatment; that's confusing for everyone involved. Guys love gaming. I think most of us would agree that women should be able to join that community and find it enjoyable. Help us help you and tell those of us with a mental age above 12 what you would consider to be fair treatment beyond removing the creepy behavior.
I agree 100%. Im a girl and id say my friend groups treat me like 'a guy'. But sometimes when a guy says like 'you can find your own ammo' I can't tell if they resent helping me to avoid being seen as a simp to the guys or if its truly unbiased... knowing how women in gaming are represented Im always paranoid if the representation as a girl gamer is making the friend group feel weird. Also 200% agree there are girls who think they should be accepted but still on a minor level seek the attention and expect some sort of special treatment.
Hm. I don't think preferring a different style of communication, like being more coöperative and having less abbrassive style of humor and poking fun at each other in a lighter way necessarily means wanting special treatment. At that point when a woman who has that kind of preference deals with that, it isn't a sexist issue, but a clash of preference/interest/communication style, which means that that woman would just need to look further for other people to play with who do have similar preferences. I am a woman who has pretended to be a guy online before and I have played with guys who weren't abbrassive like that. I don't play hyper competitive games though, because I am too sensitive to handle it because of mental issues and I know lots of guys who have the same issue and avoid certain games because of that.
Even as a guy, if another dude is insufferable in my gaming session, I would block his ass out. No one should be obnoxious, especially if you are just wanted to play videogames online. Only trolls asshole enjoy being denigrated/denigrate in order to get any type of reaction.
Listening to this three years later, I have a couple thoughts. I can only speak to my own experience, but when i was growing up I was romantically challenged and was made fun of by girls in school for liking games and scifi and stuff. When i started interacting with people far away over the internet, whenever I was treated nicely by girls on chats, I would get extremely obsessed due to my inexperience. While it never led me to treat girls like what is being described here, I can understand why some with poor upbringing or other issues might take that obsession further, especially over the internet where there is very little consequences for that behavior. Now this is just a theory, but on another front i bet many young men may be so afraid of women for real or imagined reasons, they go into communities almost as a way to hide from women, and when one shows up they feel like they have to test them. They almost expect a woman to be a certain way and they have to see if they will take their trash jokes or try to drive them out so they can once again be "safe". I unfortunately don't have any insight on to how or if these issues are solvable from the woman's side, but I would only encourage for men to work on their insecurities, because I don't see secure people behaving like this.
Jeff B Im surprised you’ve seen Dr. K videos but haven’t really learned anything from them if they include people that don’t look like you. Maybe it’s time to be open-minded.
My guide/opinion on the options you have as a gamer girl when dealing with this stuff: Men who tell you to go to the kitchen or something on that level (I would consider that mild harassment, and I think it only becomes annoying when it starts happening often, correct me if I am wrong) usually do it because they find it hilarious and are hoping for a reaction in some way and/or to get you annoyed. It's the same thing as to why people laugh when someone falls in a stupid way or whatever. The best way to deal with that, if it triggers you, is to completely ignore that person without commenting on it, and muting them if that's an option. You could come up with a witty response that could work I guess, but why bother? That applies to other more fucked up comments too, such as if someone is saying something creepy or wanting nude pics or anything of that sort. The vast majority of the men who do that (or maybe all of them, I don't know) are: a) lonely and socially awkward b) have really low self-esteem, especially when it comes to interacting with women c) they either want to have sex with you (disregarding the fact that even if you were up to it, it couldnt physically happen) and are trying to get your attention (and doing it in a way that is painful to watch), or they want to have sex with you (I hope you are noticing the trend) but they know they will be rejected - since it has happened to them every single time so far, both irl and online. So instead, they say hurtful things - sort of projecting on you their huge pain and hatered that has built up in them due to those numerous rejections. I think if you absolutely have to answer to those people, the best way to do it is to be short, aggressive and 100% serious (trying to be funny is a really bad idea, it encourages people to continue talking more often that not). BUT NOT ANGRY - this is by far the most important thing! In fact, I think any emotional response is often going to have the opposite effect of what you were hoping for. Let's keep in mind that those men are very weak and emotionally fragile people. You have to make sure they understand that you are not interested in them and are not interested continuing the conversation with them in a very clear, compact way that cannot be misinterpreted. I see so many women who would get into those long, heated discussions with men, that ultimately only end up huring them more. And sometimes they even continue playing or talking to them afterwards, which is absolutely mindboggling to me! If this doesn't work and they keep blabbing away, muting them and reporting them seems to me like the only option. Also, I personally never defend women online who are treated like that, because I believe women are capable enough to handle with the situation on their own - and also it is their personal responsibility. The only exception I would make would be if the person getting harassed is a young kid. However, I have seen men trying to defend a girl, and then that girl turns on them instead - I kind of understand why that might happen, but it's really annoying to see it happen. Even if they didn't do it in the way you were hoping, you don't need to make enemies out of people with supposedly good intentions (okay, admittedly some of those men are probably trying to fuck you too, but that's another topic). This I think is what you can do that is within your power as a girl gamer, on your own. What can be done as a community is a much bigger and more complicated topic. I have stopped playing some games due to toxicity as well by the way, league of legends and mordhau being two examples, so this is obviously a huge problem for everyone, not just women. If you are not enjoying the game, the community, and are sick of having to ignore people and getting that same negative attention, then maybe it's time to do something else with your life? And lastly, I would add that I have seen girls who are amazing at dealing with this kind of stuff succesfully, including one of my ex-girlfriends who was a passionate gamer. So it definitely can be done. It has never been a problem for her, in fact she almost enjoyed it when someone did that stuff, because she could shut them down really hard, and she had fun with it. Without trying to be hurting anyone's feelings, some of the girls in this video (and I am sure many other gamer girls) seem very shy and socially awkward/unskilled, and also quite fragile emotionally, which is a pretty bad combination in this kind of environment - considering multiplayer games, especially the more competitive ones, tend to be filled with toxicity of varying degrees. Something to consider. tl;dr: Use the mute button. Shut people down hard and with minimum amount of words. Don't respond emotionally to attacks, biggest one being anger. Be more confident in your online interactions. Have a nice day!
Whew lad that's one big wall of text. I stopped reading when you called someone saying "go back to the kitchen" over the internet "harassment." Men have been calling each other the worst stuff imaginable in gaming FOREVER, we don't go whine about and start calling it "harassment." Get over it. Get some thicker skin.
Part of the problem is things like egirls.gg that don’t help blend boy and girl gamers but instead say “hey, we know it’s impossible to get a friend who is a girl to play games with you, so we are putting them on a pedestal for you to buy!” This dynamic can’t coexist healthily when trying to minimize the gender boundaries
A R yeah they did, but I’m just getting the point across that things like onlyfans/erotic streams/epal/porn skew the view of women. Being a dick to women gamers is bad, but you can also tell there’s something wrong when people are overly nice and are just trying to get a girl to be their e-girlfriend (AKA- Simping)
Thomas Clifford I agree that it’s a symptom, it feels like a loop to me. Men can’t deal with women so they pay for egirls, which strengthens their ability to not deal properly with women so they pay for onlyfans, which warps their image of women so they pay for more egirls, it’s a brutal cycle.
@@Mygary It certainly doesn't help when boys who don't interact with girls irl now see that this is how girls are treated in their "gaming life" where they spend most of their freetime in.
Thank you Dr K and more importantly thank you to the six women who participated, your opinions, views and experiences are welcome and need to be heard so our community can grow and improve.
Thanks for this video. I would love to see more like it exploring the free-range racism, homophobia, and other social issues that are evvvvverywhere in video games.
"people drink the bath water" and then the most GENUINE "CAN I THINK FOR A SECOND" just came out from Dr.K.
Timestamp plox
I think he needed a moment to reconsider existing on the internet
@@thatbants7134 18:00
@@AnimeFan9833 IT'S FUCKING GOLD
You say "genuine", but that was like "what the hell get me off of this planet" subtext.
I'm a simp for Dr K
he has the lowest maintenance cost too
@Jeff B same. im sapiosexual and they are starving me, but Dr K make me obese :D
We need a fanfic!
The K in Dr. K stand for King.
It worked!
I'm not a gamer (I'm the mom of one) but found this interesting to hear young ladies experiencing the same feelings and types of harassment that women who work IRL in heavily male dominated fields have traditionally experienced. It's just as hurtful to hear these things online as it is on a job site. I'm an old lady contractor, yet what we experience is all so familar . I appreciate this panel and discussion from these young women, and the progress and healing you are trying to make.
What about men who work in female dominated fields?
@@donhostiarra88 I don't hear anything about such fellas but hey, if they have stories, I'm willing to listen. But I can also guarantee that their stories would be a rarity compared to what we have to experience wherever we go.
@@donhostiarra88 she did not said anything to conclude what you just said. She just claimed that exists harassment in the workplace, we should call them out when this happens independently of the genders involved.
@@donhostiarra88 I think men who work in female dominated fields sometimes face accusations of being gay or pedophiles (if it's a field working with children, which are usually female dominated) but not usually by any of the women he works with -- usually by other men in their social circles or families or possibly even men in other positions in the workplace - like a male nurse being mocked by male doctors. Women who are their colleagues don't typically harass these men, as far as I've ever heard.
@@VioletEmerald
They don't harass them if they are gay.
it’s weird when you’re a person in your head, but a girl to others. because ‘person’ and ‘girl’ to a-lot of people, are not the same thing.
it’s nice when people accidentally mistake you for a fella anonymously, because it lets you feel like a person for a while.
Coeme to think of it, this is really dehumanizing.
This makes me so depressed because it's the truth. And I hate this so much.
I know I am late to the party, but I just wanted to say this really struck me. I know exactly what you mean. You're in a chat, or playing a game or something and no one knows your gender. Sometimes the moment a room full of guys realizes you're a gal... you can feel the whole energy of the room change. They make weird jokes about how you're a girl, they ask you weird questions. Suddenly it's like you have to answer for all women. It's so strange and frustrating.
Bruh literally. I got confused for a guy once and it was so freeing
this hit home hard
i once grinded some WoW Mythic dungeons with 4 other girls. they were all doing the girl talk thing and i was playing a female character and they though i was a girl and i just went along with it. it was nice hearing the girls in my guild having a good time.
THE TRICKSTER
The gentleman
The duality of man.
The-
...Nice
What’s the “girl talk thing?” Asking as a girl, lol
A conversation with men who have previously behaved in this way would certainly be interesting.
They would probably act normal on stream.
ginseng Assuming there entire existence isn’t just being weird I think being normal and rational would be the right way to go about it.
I'd honestly pay to see that haha: "Interview with the Simps".
Dr. K has talked to many an incel
Pretty sure every male gamer would suit that criteria.
I've actually gotten pretty good at 'pretending to be a guy' in games (and discord servers). At least when there's no voice chat. (choosing a non-female-sounding name, the way I write, using less emotes/emoji, etc...)
Kinda sad, now that I think about it.
same ;-;
Ermm.. i intentionally choosing a female name in game and ... I'm a male.. is that weird?😂
People assume I am a girl because my online name is usually ComeOnBunny which I guess seems feminine for some reason?
I accidentally picked a feminine sounding name and gays dragged me into their discord server...
sameee honestly even in vc, voice changers are smth ive genuinely considered. (honestly the only reason i havent actually got one is cause its just easier to say 'no mic sry' than go trhough the install)
For the girl talking about Siege, I've only played with 3 random girls before and every experience was the same. One guy starts screaming "OMG GAMER GRILL" one guy asks her to make him a sandwich, and another starts talking about sexual things. I always thought that stuff was just memes but to actually see it happening in real time made me realize that it's hard being a girl gamer just for the single fact that they're a girl
How much have you played of R6S?
I literally stopped playing because it's just a cesspool, I don't think it's symbolic of a sexist issue, I think the majority of their community is just hateful in general.
again i don't doubt what you're saying but its not everyone only like 99% of males so stop being such a feminist
@@timoak I've been playing for a couple of years. I mean toxicity is pretty normal it's just weird that girls get like different treatment just cuz they're girls
@@ShitOwl what does treating women like human beings have to do with feminism? It's not that hard to understand
sry I have to say that but some people are like sheep, even in their "Humor". Just let this Girls play the Game wtf, it's not that difficult.
Hi! I'm the person wearing the mask.
I'm sorry it looks like I'm dabbing.
I usually cough in my hands which is gross and nasty.
So someone recommended me to immediately dab when it does happen.
And also I wanna wear a mask, because I'm kinda insecure about myself and was nervous of going on camera
I'm sorry aaaa
No need to apologize, anyone would get nervous going in front of thousands of people. Would be even worse if everyone criticized your looks or someone used your identity and what you talked about against you.
Ahahahah I was pretty sure you were dabbing
Loved your manic pixie reference, very good point
@@takesomemonkey Totally agree!
Most of the manic pixie dreamgirls are also 'not like other girls' so the protagonist can keep his inner belief of "girls are usually stupid" while having something to put his dick in.
I feel something like this is particularly interesting for incels because it allows them to remain in their mysoginistic bubble.
Don’t apologize!! Idk why people caring about that when there’s a more serious topic going here. 🙄🤷🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
A message to all decent guys, please be the guy who just says, "hey man, cool it" when these things are said to women around you. Don't fight don't argue, just ask them to calm down. Thank you, from the decent girls.
Roger that
hey man, cool it
@@aikona5427 I give to you +1 internet, thank you.
They’d just be called a simp by other guys 😒
@@beyondviolet Decent guys don't care if they're called a simp. Decent guys say, "whatever dude, just calm down."
When they're talking about Belle, you can just see Dr. K's faith in humanity disappearing
yeah
They should have explained the meme properly i think.
Also Belle Delphine basically copied a sex-article that is very common in Japan (since she is a good business-person).
The value of the story is not that males are creepy and buy bathwater (which apparently was sterile btw), but that our society becomes more oriented towards Japan -> entrepreneurs like Belle copying JP-stuff -> the business model works since we don't live in North Korea.
So the astonishing aspect of this story is a broad cultural change based on an open culture, and not this dull, empty conclusion that men are creeps.
@Vergil TheVirgin I'm pretty sure they're referring to "good business people" doing well in their business, not saying they are morally good.
shall we introduce him to the simp army
@Vergil TheVirgin yeah you're right, as Michael said, i ment it more like doing well in business (coming up with new strategies, even if they're morally reprehensible)
My female friends and I agree that getting flamed and treated like a dude feels liberating and nice over getting treated nice for just being a girl.
There's a difference between sexual harassment and getting flamed.
There’s a difference between sexually predatory and getting flamed.
Lea Yuki I think that’s what she’s hitting at. Getting flamed as if she was a guy.. So other sensible toxicity, not just blatant sexual harassment, e.t.c
Yeah I treat girls like the boys but softer yk, a little toned down
@@omarcapaso7156 I don't tone it down.
It wasn't until the third sneeze that I realized she wasn't dabbing...
Oh shit... I watched the whole thing last night and was confused the whole time
Yep, same, I was team confused too for way longer than I want to admit XD
@@antoniommav that's me
:0 wait what’s her name?
@@coscorrodriftCDS, tough... i'm diagnosed with CMRS. Chronic Milly Rocking Syndrome.
It's funny because the same people who would go an harass these ladies online are the exact same people who wouldn't even have the balls to aproach a girl in real life.
bruh, what do you expect?
lmaoo
It's the internet, There are no consequences for these actions. So ofcourse they are going to behave in a different way then irl where their are consequences.
Ya its the same group lol
yeah the girls are invading their safe space haha kinda funny but also kinda sad
God this is all so painfully true and so frequent. I have been told that I was "asking for" explicit images and years later I still have no idea how I was asking for anything. I was kind to him because I thought we were friends. I was only 15.
I had the same thing happen to be.. I was on Xbox and was naïve and asked if I wanted to role play with him (I was like 11 or 12) playing Minecraft, and I said sure, he said ill be the wife and he will be the husband. we built a town and it was fun at first and To me he sounded like a child, but now that I'm older it doesn't seem that way, it was either a voice changer or something. sooner or later he pressured me to give him my phone number telling me were friends so its okay. later he started sending me these weird messages while I was playing Minecraft "My **** is so hard right now, I want to kiss you and other nasty messages... and started sending images to my phone, I was confused. but I just ignored him but he was spamming me, sooner or later my sister saw the messages and told me to delete him from my friend and block him, and remove his number from my phone.. he spammed me messages after I unfriended him "I'm sorry ! please don't remove me, I love you" and I felt bad at first.. but thinking back he was a creep. Parents should watch their kids online more, I gave him my name and other personal information =( (Sorry if this was long i just wanted to get this off my chest)
@@iwuvpiesgaming9164 I'm so sorry this happened to you. You didn't deserve that.
I'm going into education and things like this make me so passionate about cyber security because when we were young (I know for me at least) it was 'don't talk to strangers online' but nothing was said about supposed friends. And they are the ones who can cause so much damage. Sending care to you 😔❤
@@katies4666 Thank you for your kind words, Sending care to you as well ❤️
@@solarydays To be fair, when we were kids a lot of parents didn't know crap about the internet and cyber relationship dynamics other than "don't talk to strangers" they likely saw no problem with their young daughter playing a cute game with another (supposed) young kid that was their age.
@@solarydays makes sense in theory, but it doesn’t happen. I took advantage of the fact my parents didn’t know anything about computers, besides their knowledge of looking at history (which I quickly learned to erase). Kids never want their parents to know what they’re doing and I’m pretty sure almost everyone did shit on the Internet their parents would of disapproved of. Only thing is that as kids we don’t know any better and think we know everything, until something fucked up happens, and the shame of allowing it to happens only makes the desire to hide it stronger. It’s not as simple as saying it’s common sense. I mean nowadays I’m sure parents know enough about technology but back in the early 2000s till like 15ish, it just feels like parents just didn’t know how to monitor kids internet use. They thought we were IMing our real friends. I’m just saying, it’s way more complex.
These women just kept apologizing for the smallest things, even things that are not their fault. :( They are so used to apologizing it's like an instinct... It's so sad..
Yeah, most women are raised to be agreeable. Not all of course.
"People mostly bought her bath waters as a joke" HA, you'd like to think that
thats the excuse they used
Thats how you know those people are normal. If they come to the conclusion that people drink it or they find it easy to believe thats how you know theyre a freak in the... bathwater? XD
You would know lol
@@trippasnippa119 i just got a fucking aneurysm reading that comment
@@TheOrangVegetal congrats xD
i love how the girl at the bottom is literally dying out of laughter when other women try to explain dr K who Belle Delphine is :D
Edit: For context: 17:02
Absolutely cringe
@@zxp3ct3r41 lol why?
they all be jellus becouse they look like a trashcan next to that woman
@@Erik3E eh, she's really ugly too just good at putting on make up. I don't hate on her though, she's worked hard and is talented at what she does.
@@Erik3E _Simp, the Wihte Defender_
Personally I would love it if people could stop viewing the girls as the ''problem'' and focus on the aholes. Ive had plenty of situations where my games were held hostage where I was basically blackmailed to perform or give someone a social or they derail or throw the match. The worst feeling is when you can tell the other people getting annoyed and wanting you to ''just do it'' so we can play the game. It makes you feel very singled out.
Im glad you mentioned the ''farming reputation points'' I dont think people really realize how harmful and hurtful the whole ''simping'' and ''friend zone'' thing is to girls. Where youre like yay friends and then it turns out all they wanted from you were some sort of favors of sexual nature. Its depressing, it makes you feel like you as a person dont matter and it makes you vary of friend requests and even trying to make friends in a game, cause you want to protect yourself.
Also I think the bad relations between girls is also because for many young girls the only way to get ''respect'' from guys is to do the ''not like other girls'' things, and being chill or befriending another girl might stir that up. On top of that from personal experience the guys in games will often do their best to get you to ''fight'' comparing you, reading into your communication, etc. and just not engaging might be a way to protect yourself and not give them ammo.
Though randomly queing into full girl teams in OW was some of the most fun I had in the game.
These are toxic people, cut them off I'm pretty sure that they add no value to your life.
@@glutachi_6621 that’s easier said than done for a lot of people unfortunately
Even when you are one of the guys they will ignore your experiences as a woman a lot of the time, or even minimise it. It is fucked, just misogyny and hatred and invalidation of female bodies.
@@aronnemcsik Nice strawman.
@@adalheidisofadamahcaptaino18 what do you mean by "strawman"
This is so saddening to hear from my perspective and hearing just how different the male and female world looks like in video games. A female friend of mine that I play games with almost every week always tells me about how she's a moderator for this female-only discord and how they won't allow any males in there because of all the harassment they have gone through which was shocking first time I heard about it. So to the female gamers out there, I can't say I understand your pain beacuse ive never been through something like that but I hope things change soon because this is fucked
Thank you for that. I wish we didn't have to segregate ourselves sometimes, but as I woman I know how it feels to be unable to speak online without being attacked by a bunch of guys. Now and then we need a place where we can talk without the sexist comments.
@@DimaRakesah Yeah it sucks how people just can't be normal human beings
@@minininja2184 This IS a norm. Good, decent people are the ones who overcome human nature.
@@Kriliska I mean, I'd say that sexually harassing women being in my nature is a bit of a stretch. If thats what you meant
17:52 The exact moment Dr. K wanted to leave the planet and never come back
Putting their names/nicknames on the overlay would help viewers (and maybe the participants as well?).. At least I would find it easier to follow the convos.
Maybe use your brain and remember their names, or if that's too hard for you, write their names down and stick it to the screen :P
@@shantaeforsmash8287 Nice response man, very useful, thanks.
@@willmontaraces697 Happy to help! :D
@@shantaeforsmash8287 smh
@@shantaeforsmash8287 yeah cause that's really useful for all those that join after the introductions
I was one of those girls that would say they dont get along with other girls to avoid getting into dumb fights.
I one time had a girl attack me as soon i joined a discord call.
But i only just got out of that mindset that all girls online is like that and started to make female friends.
Proud of you 👏 I used to be like that too until I actually started interacting with more women in a genuine way & I found that I love the friendships I make with my girl-friends.
i feel that, Im a girl too and when another girl is in a game im so paranoid that if I talk they will start shitting on everything I do or say. Like some girls will just straight up ask a guy to be a simp and tk us wtf?? Do u have any advice on getting out of this mindset??
Oml I relate. There have been a few Overwatch games where a girl gets pissy with me just cause I’m a girl? I don’t understand it, I always assume it’s cause they feel threatened and feel they need to prove themselves to be the better female? But idk
@@opolelopah2781 I had no idea this happened. I've don't think I've ever really been in a random online match with more than one girl at a time (who aren't already friends with each other) and even then I don't really use voice chat so I'm surprised to hear that that's even a thing. I think it probably comes from competitiveness. I guess for certain girls when you're the only girl in a game you feel special, so when another girl jumps in they feel like their position is being threatened. Some girls are just vain like that I guess and want all the attention even if its at the expense of putting another girl down.
@@goddesskoala7907 That's so shitty. I really don't get that, because the whole problem is toxicity in game towards woman and then some woman do it to eachother. + Getting in game with another girl is so much fun. Just be nice D:
"You look super nervous."
**darts eyes left and right**
"Sorry..."
That reaction was actually so funny
Also, what was he thinking in that moment. She seems nervous, let’s add pressure? xD
I think it’s because he’s used to asking that in 1on1 sessions, where that question doesn’t draw additional attention from others and allows to put the person at ease
@@Yanimalyan
Well it still eases the tension after the initial laugh.
@@Yanimalyan Sometimes you are nervous and try to hide it. If you know that everyone can see you being nervous, it sometimes goes away.
whos that brunette streamer with black dress with glasses
If you actually recognize that somebody has nerves and get it out in the open it does help believe it or not. Half of being nervous is wondering if people notice that you’re nervous/trying to hide it. By seeing that your nervousness is recognized and it wasn’t a big deal at all, it can take some of the pressure off.
It's interesting how little they disagree on every topic. This is so common in gaming that they all agree that "Yea, that's just how it is"
Well that sounds more like brainwashing. Normally people doesn't have the same opinion, that's what makes us good.
@@birdbig6852 Really ? So when guys say league is toxic and people run it down they're brainwashed ? Can you explain that to me in more detail please
@@fractal_mind562 Dude I wasn't describing a certain situation, if a group of people have the same opinion on every topic then the most probable answer is yes, they have been brainwashed. And league is toxic but it might be way less toxic than you think.
@@birdbig6852, you definitely don't know what 'brainwash' means.
@@birdbig6852 if this was the same opinion on "every" topic then sure. But they just all had the same opinions on how much it sucks when they get targeted harassment for being women in games. That is just agreement on one topic not every topic.
"wow theres a girl in the game and they are usually bad! lets see how you'll do!" IS SO ACCURATE i hate it here
Tbh i recognize i do that too, just a habit from seeing carried gfs in competitive games, they are usually extremely toxic as well, tough that goes for any duo you meet. Also to be fair i never met a carried bf, at least not in competitive.
Thank u for this video Dr. K! This is so important, I really don't think that most men understand the amounts of harassment girls have to go through! It's insane, the "jokes", slurs, sexual harassment, men interacting with you only to get something out of u and getting mad when they don't, making u feel like u owe them.
It's so telling when Dr. K is sitting there all confused from a super vague statement one of the girls said while all the other girls are nodding in confirmation because that vague statement was all they needed to relate and think of like 100 instances where it's happened to them. People need to see how tiresome it is and how much girls need to give up so that men don't have to give up their freedom to harass girls ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dr. K: “I think I’m a decent human being”
I think we can all agree Dr. K is one of the most decent human beings.
I’ve been playing games online since I was 12. csgo, siege, overwatch etc. and the amount of uncomfortable encounters I’ve had while speaking into my mic is sad really. Guys have asked creepy requests, followed and team killed me, kicked me from the match. It’s frustrating for sure, and weird to hear as a 12-16 year old.
Hey Lilyml7, I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences. I definitely had some shitty encounters myself but I'm glad you're speaking up about it. I think that's one of the best things that we can do, that and educate ourselves and the people around us. Feel free to drop me a message if you feel like talking about this or anything else!
I have a sister your age and it scares me to death thinking about the stuff that she could experience if I wasn’t overprotective of her. The idea that grown men could bully small children’s baffles me but at the same time I understand that most of them are sad in their own lives and lash out at others. Thank you for speaking out.
It has nothing to do with ur gender. In CSGO if u use the mic in a public game someone will say shut up. Ive played online games for only a few months and had both good and bad experiences just like everything else in life.
@@sheezy2526 stop trying to invalidate women's struggles.
@@wow-jz7me idc about womeme's struggles
These girls did a great job. If you ever do this again I'd love to hear from a few more perspectives. Great job ladies. Thank you, Dr.K!
As a woman who loves playing video games, it just breaks my heart hearing this cause its all true. I've experienced this and still do and it's so frustrating to me. I belong in a video game community that sees my assigned sex as a weakness and that I can't be competitive. It's frustrating trying to talk to my male friends about this and they always tell me " oh if you don't want to be harassed then don't talk and don't pick the characters that are cute." Males make up the majority of the video game communities and it sucks when some are willing to watch their female friends or love ones being harassed ( even though they themselves don't harass women online )and do nothing about it. You are part of the problem if you just watch it happen. If any of you are moved by this video please start speaking up when you see this behavior and do it sincerely.
well youre apart of the problem with 60% of men being lonely, you wmn need to initiate dates more and give boring, frustrated and angry guys a chance.
see how easy it was to blame you for something
This issue more than anything shows both genders have some real issues, and rational people on both sides should actually sit and listen to them. Not being able to go anywhere and just unwind without a bunch of random thirsty dudes getting up in your grill, especially even gaming wtf would be extraordinarily annoying, because you are like an npc in how people treat you.
Conversely, many women don't ever truly consider the depth of the issues men actually face, and I'd say the worst of them don't even care/happy they suffer.
I feel this talk really does show that we need to find a way to come together, and see each side as a human, not a statistic of previous experiences or numbers in general.
So as a guy that struggled with women for a long time I experienced the feelings that make guys say and do such horrible things. For me it never escalated into hateful behavior or messages outwardly, but definitely felt the urged to do so. For me it came back to having no control over my success with women. Back then I didn't know that letting go over the control, letting her decide if she likes me, and being okay with not being liked made me more attractive. That realization of giving up control is something I could never have gotten in a online gaming community where meeting a nice girl feels like finding a shiny Pokemon. Stepping into a social world where there wasn't such a big divide made me realize that, but if wouldn't have done that, I feel like I would have become such a toxic dude. To me it feels like guys that have similar experience, where they have same realizations and find success with girls, just jump ship and start, you know, in a way hating on their former selfs. Which I get, because yeah, no means no, and that should be clear, but repeating that message to someone over and over again doesn't make him understand his emotions.
Thank you for your take on this, it's really helpful ❤
"Back then I didn't know that letting go over the control, letting her decide if she likes me, and being okay with not being liked made me more attractive. "
That sounds like: just accept women are omnipotent and have all the authority and control over you and the only legitimate aim of your life is to please their tastes.
Not buying into it.
BTW, I was never a gamer and never really struggled with women because I wasn't too invested in dating or anything like that. That's probably why.
Projection much? Understanding a woman is autonomous and can have her own feelings about you or not is not assuming she is God or giving her authority over YOU. How would you feel if I forced you to eat shit when you don't want to? That is exactly what you do when you force women to like you. HUMANS HAVE AUTONOMY THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXERCISE IT.
You can also try to learn that not every interaction with a woman has to be for the purpose of hooking up, you can just be friends with other women and that can expand your horizons of human understanding even more.
@@artorhenExactly!!
I was wondering when the girl on the top right was going to introduce herself, then I realized it was Moses.
Who is he?
@@trucid2 I think the technical helper of Dr. K. Maybe graduate student or something? But working on the healthy gamer thing with him.
@@trucid2 i think he helps Dr. K with all the tech stuff
Bro Same Lmao
He runs the healthy gamer discord but knows dr.k irl I believe he is doing it as some form of internship or mentorship
One of my takes on being a woman in gaming. I feel like girl gamers often become acclimated to a fault to the attention that comes with being the token girl in a group. There's a sort of territorialism that stems from your status in the group being tied to your gender. So when another girl suddenly enters the scene, there can be an initial awkwardness that can go either way. You want to befriend the girl because you can probably relate to each other on so many levels you can't with the guys and some of it is because of the absence of sexual attraction, but on the other hand, you might also be cautious of or even hostile toward this new girl because she has a great potential to "steal" some of the attention and adoration you enjoyed until now because you were the only girl of the group. This excess of attention and adoration can serve as a crutch to girls who have low self-esteem. I've even lost a friend in a traumatizing episode because of how this culture enables paranoia, ego, and territorialism off the back of insecurity in girl gamers.
THIS! THANK U SO MUCH FOR ADDRESSING THIS!
Greatly spoken.
This was well worded A+ my friend group has had this happen we only had one female friend in our friend group and later my friend brought in another female friend and we all became close friends but the girls in our newly expanded friend group did not get along at all the boys and I were curious as to why that was then the new girl stated dating one of our friends and she turned him against all of us and it was a big explosion and the only people who are still friends from that group are me and my bestfriend from high school it was crazy. Not exactly what you went through but I can see where that comes from
Underrated comment.
👁️👅👁️
Yeah... The environment can really enable or rationalise insecurities that are unhealthy. I think not only is it difficult to befriend a guy online, over time I think that perhaps even girls have become over-thinkers in interactions with girls. "Will she think i'm stealing attention. is it a crime to join in, is she judging me more/less than the rest of the group, are girls the cause of drama for talking...etc". Till this day, I think honest conversations might help address the over-whelming pool of assumptions/expectations people have of each-other. It seems people's intentions are just not clear enough and we have started to predict/avoid problems rather than trying to change things/solve problems that exist.
One of the greatest take aways I found from this video (although I'm only halfway through) is that I think most guys engage in this behavior or thought process, but don't actually take it to the stage where it's actually abusive. I remember playing WoW 10 years ago and playing with a girl in my guild. She was very pretty and eventually someone on the server gave her a spectral tiger for free. I was really jealous and thought to myself that she was probably manipulating that guy. Maybe that's what was happening, but in hindsight it's equally possible that she never asked for anything and he gave her that in order to "grind reputation" with her. Of course I kept my thoughts to myself because I don't like gossiping about people.
I'm also guilty of "grinding reputation" to try and get a girl to like me, but when it doesn't work out for me, I'm sad as opposed to angry or vengeful. I think that's why when these harassment stories come out, we instinctually defend these guys because we can see ourselves in them. We know that all it would've taken is for us to react differently to a rejection or spread rumors about a girl because she was getting a lot of attention and then we'd be the ones getting flak.
I think a lot of my problems early on were that I got a lot of info on how to "get girls" from pickup websites that treat women as objects rather than actual people. Dr. K I think it'd be really interesting to get a group of guys together to talk about their interactions with women and kinda correct where you think they went wrong.
Glad to see you and some others be able to be so reflective and find some perspective on things you did/thought in the past. Thank you for sharing and doing the work. Keep up the good reflecting.
Wow, this is the most refreshingly introspective take on interactions between men and women that I have seen in a while, if ever. It also gave me some food for thought. Thank you for sharing.
How do you find out a girl is a girl in WoW without them mentioning it? If they do mention it I ask myself why? That answer I would assume is for attention.
Why do guys talk in a co-op and team based game? Do you not have friends or understand how a team works? It required communication, typing in chat isn't often sufficient as some people never even read it and do their own thing instead of being a team player, your comment is a massive self report.
Why do guys talk in a co-op and team based game? Do you not have friends or understand how a team works? It required communication, typing in chat isn't often sufficient as some people never even read it and do their own thing instead of being a team player, your comment is a massive self report.
I just want to give Dr. K another example of "the conversation turns weird". One time a dude out of random "slid into my DMs" and said "wanna play TF2?" and I said "no". The dude's reply was "Wow, that's it? No 'how is your day?' Nothing?" I've never seen my husband manipulated into feeling bad for answering a yes/no question with a yes/no online.
Ask him if the dress makes you look fat.
This is consistently one of the best youtube and twitch channels these days. They don't just stick to a niche, Dr K. really tackles all sorts of problems.
This was interesting. I've always hidden my gender when gaming and usually avoid voice chats these days. Discord is pretty bad too, I've been in a couple servers where I got along with people just fine and tried socializing in the VC, but was completely kicked from the server once they heard my female voice. I understand that they think it's funny, but it has made me avoid socializing online at all anymore. It's a lonely feeling, especially right now when I go weeks without speaking to anyone. Just want to talk about games and laugh-off some stress. It comes with the territory I suppose.
If it makes you feel better... i was born with a cleft palate so i sound really garbled and flemmy just due to the resonant style of my voice. When there's no girls to bully, it's usually me. I've never even downloaded discord because naaaaaaaa. Not seeking sympathy or anything, just something i relate to.
Chip James This broke my heart dude. I have a thick southern accent so I get singled out in VC a lot too. It sucks to be singled out for something you can’t control. Try to remember that if someone picks on you for something stupid like that they’re not worth your time and not friend material. I hope you find a group of real friends someday and if you already do make sure they know how much you mean to them, real friends are a treasure.
@@twitchtheking4950 hey thanks man. I love when people who have anonymity retain their humanity and try to uplift people for literally no gain. Thankfully in my case it's helped developed my wit and thickened my skin a little bit... however.. this shit is present for girls in games and out of them and i feel like i might i have strayed from the op a little. Stay tough ladies.
This sounds like an excellent idea people really treat you differently if your voice sounds like once or the other. Or if it’s generally unpleasant
I thought Dr. K is in Love or Host
He is and he is the host
@@ΧαρηςΧανοζιδης Δεν ξερει PepeLaugh
Mr. Show: Wait thats illegal
@@justxigoldenix9909 You would be a love i can tell
@@justxigoldenix9909 he means the rajjchelor i think
Thank you for discussing this, it's very brave. I have been a gamer for 15 years now (am 26) and honestly for the last few years I gave up playing any kind of online multiplayer game because I am too exhausted to constantly be the 'b|tch' that can't take a 'joke' even though 99% of the time that's all the discussions are around -- gross, sexist, xenophobic or racist insults and degrading commentary not just from males to females but in general to each other. I am at a point in my life where I just play my single player adventures and can't be bothered, but I realise that's me having given up and I'm uncomfortable with that because I do believe we can have a good time together online without all the toxicity.
You have to play with friends if you can't handle toxicity. Random lobbies with random people from all over the world will always be toxic, that's just how it is.
Sometimes, as a manipulation tactic, when a a person does something immoral he can slander the victim's reputation, so when they try to open up about the shitty experience they had with the person the victim is deemed untrustworthy.
"Its just a joke", "I was drunk", "I was not my self", "you have misread the situation in some other way" is another one of those tactics employed to manipulate the perception of the situation by the victims and the others.
What it does essentially is remove responsibility from the person doing the immoral act, allows them to avoid rejection, and makes the victim question if it was actually a joke and they are at fault here.
What I believe the root of this whole problem is that growing up guys tend to view themselves as seperate entities from girls, this is normally enforced by the whole stereotypes about what guys can and can't do and the whole girls vs boys things. So at some point they only see the differences and not the similarities. Most of these differences they focus on is the belief that girls get everything handed to them easily or the fact that they are literally the thing you need to have a perfect life. This either spins into jealousy or desire.
When you then slap them onto the web where there's percieved no consequences for their actions it's obvious that people with this belief will act out. After all there's no "laws" and the closest thing to that is being banned from a site or game, which in most cases are simply temporary or they can simply just go to another place. As a man myself while I have seen a lot of what these women talked about I have known about this, we clearly do but I don't think we think about the severity and consistency of it. Like hell I didn't even realize that young kids could be harassed like this the moment they step foot into a chat which I absolutely find disgusting.
The only way I can think about how to change things is starting at that root, with young people and getting them to interact with each other in their school years. It may not stop the problem but would dramatically change it.
People should address double standards then instead of framing it as pathology. I think the feeling that men are policed more and have more consequences gives them a feeling of wanting male spaces to get away which are currently framed as something bad and that is leading to this harrassment reaction.
Dude can I truthers in the chat ✋😔
I have contributed with the "OH MY GOD, POG, GIRL!" :/
I agree, if adults painted the picture of we have our differences but are still human when addressing gender it would be better. Rather then just saying females are different then men and should be treated differently.
most girls have way more things handed to them in life. They are treated in society as seperate entities. This is not a stereotypes this is what most guys see around them. Most parents listen to what their daughtes say, give them everything they ask for. This is my experience and the experience of almost all the man that I know.
This made me realize that I have automatically dismissed my former friends who where both guys and girls with they're daily problems because of me assuming that it's something that they have done wrong first, which is fucked up in my part and I did it a lot in high school especially with girls when it comes to high school drama. Thinking about made me really cringe on my past decisions.
It's easier to dismiss their feelings if their reasoning is in question, I'm definitely guilty of this too in the past, guys and girls... "What did you do to make them say that" sort of thing, and it just pushes people away from opening up to anyone. These streams are so powerful
hey man. you're not perfect, just like everybody else. huge props to you for reflecting and doing your best to change. I know countless people who do stuff like that and then refuse to change or look at it from a different perspective. that's where the real problem occurs imo. not when you slip up, but when you refuse to see things from a different perspective.
Omg Dr.K being grossed out by current internet culture is priceless!
I think a big item that is not discussed is a lot of gamers (I have been at this point) who are male are not in a relationship and games are helping them get awhile from that fact in real life. On top of this it is common knowledge that people tell you to find a partner with a common interest. So you have a lot of people who are unhappy with their social/relationship life then when a girl comes into a space with a ratio of 1:100 female to male and they feel attacked because the ratio is so unbalanced. And because of this when girls who are gamers push off all these guys the guys get offended and lash out because if a gamer girl doesn't like you it makes you feel like there are literally 0 girls on the planet who will like you and it takes your mind to a dark place. and in regards to girls being called attention seekers who talk a lot like the girl talking about WoW is being because a girl gives you a huge advantage in games because so many people are willing to help you. Which again makes guys mad because it makes life and now the game they are playing completely rigged against them.
This is the best statement I've seen to explain the behaviour. To girls it's just another guy who wants to date them or have sex with them and they get tired of it. To guy it's just another girls who refused to try to like him after he got dumped every single time in real life and in the games.
I genuinely like how you were able to type this out without speculating on girls' behavior and motives.
I think I can understand where you're coming from as my youth was also pretty fucking frustrating both in terms of success and in terms of partnerships.
Can we agree though that this doesn't excuse behaving this way? You don't get a free pass for sexual harassement if you suffer enough otherwise. Especially against someone who is by no means involved in your problems.
Many people use addictive games like WOW to give up on life and delve into addiction in order to feel happy.
That's not healthy though and certainly not a way to solve your rl problems.
At some point we all become adults and should take responsibility for the consequences of our actions instead of screaming "but what this other injustice that has nothing to do with my current fuck-up?" to excuse our own bad behavior.
@@couchpotatoe91 yeah, i dont think it excuses the behaviour but helps us understand why it happens, and hopefully provides us with a clue on how to stop or prevent it.
M. Vipsanius Agrippa wait it’s not sexual harassment it’s just harassment
@@aquasnippy Well, I'm no expert, but if someboedy describes what they want to do with your body it's sexual harassement in my eyes.
Same goes for wanting to date someone, asking for nudes, stalking them etc.
You don't have to touch someone to sexually harass them.
That said it doesn't matter what kind of harassement this is, we're not determining jail time here. Both are fucked up.
Yoooo thanks for this video. I remember when I was 16 and I finally saved up enough for an Xbox, only to get promptly bullied off multiplayer games 😂. My favourite was when they’d insist I was a prepubescent boy before believing there was a girl in the match. After getting Skyrim, I never looked back to multiplayer games. Been playing nearly exclusively single player RPGs ever since haha.
Ngl, that sounds kinda sad. Wish you could just play multiplayer games without being bullied.
Same. I'm a sensitive guy and I quit multiplayer. I like playing Path of Exile by myself. Skyrim is the best because of the modding scene.
Damn. That sucks because you're missing out on Dota 2. If I were you, I'd just read up on stoicism and laugh the "bullying" away like the big brain guys do in competitive or multiplayer games. It's only bullying if you feel diminished as a person after hearing it. I get flamed all the time in-game and I just turn it back on them and see how mad I can make them. It's a hobby of mine.
@@Ancor3 and the worst part as much as you guy's or simps your choice don't want to realize or accept it IT actually also happens to guys so stop that simping/talkingpeopleaftertheirmouthjustcuzthey'refemale
Shit Owl
Guys don’t get sexual comments in online games not nearly on the level of women. Pull your head outta your ass and actually listen to people besides reactionaries for once.
For some feedback on interviews with multiple people like this, I'd recommend some distinct way of showing exactly whos talking, with a border around their webcam or something. It gets irritating when theres a visual and i have to decipher exactly whos talking. Other than that, love it, this is some of my favorite stuff on RUclips at the moment, its always so thought-provoking and interesting.
to add into this, i play games with my guy friends a lot, and ive become desensitized to all the sexual comments towards me when i even utter a word in the voice chat. i.e, i was playing the new CoD with my guy friends and left my mic open so i could also talk to the other teammates, when i greeted them/ said "hello" i was immediately met with someone saying that my voice was hot and they'd want to fuck me. it's sad that ive had to build up a apathetic facade to all this, and my guy friends were taken aback by what they said as well. the positive side to all of this is that i'm glad there's a lot more female streamers/girl gamers to know that im not alone in what i wanna enjoy by myself or with others.
Good, you developed a thick skin, just like guys have had to do, FOREVER.
Men in MALE spaces shouldn't have to change to accommodate women.
You won't find me joining a women's knitting club or some make-up community and start demanding that the women start catering to my fee-fees.
Cod is a cesspool, I remember one time a guy opened up like that on a girl in chat and she proceed to roast him over the mic for the entire session. She was so good at it, were really good friends now and I couldn't ask for a better person to watch my back in any shooter games.
I never talk in voice chat, ever. I can still have a good time without it idk why females can't
@@Terimator20 Not everyone's the same? I know when I play multiplayer games it's a lot more fun to talk.
Body Bags For Commie Fags yeah man, the thick skin is necessary imo, but sometimes those comments really get to u, and i understand that a lot of dudes have heard worse. I think it's wacky on both genders to really interact like this online honestly
I have no idea what "the solution" is to the issues discussed here, but I'm so glad they're being discussed and explored here.
Maybe the thing we all need to do is to have conversations like this!
As a dude and someone that just wants to game, having those types of guys in game and in your team is the most annoying thing ever. Most of the time if one guy stands up for the girl and tells them to shut the fuck up, it works, but you do get those idiots out there that wont stop.
Yeah its a girl, online playing video games. Its nothing special JUST PLAY THE GAME.
(Male) I don't know what to say. A lot of the bullying sounds like when I was on the internet around 10 yrs playing WoW in Ventrillo. Being excluded because of my voice, pronunciation, etc. The fact that I was better than most DPS and deserved the loot despite my age difference put me in a weird spot. I think its just stems from society/community and how it develops.
Loved this talk. More motivation why to talk to girls irl and approach. Sorry for your experience girls.
I simp for a world where this shit doesn't happen.
We out here stanning human decency
damn this be hitting differently considering how relevant it is to current problems
*Ah yes Yvonnie and Lily*
what current problems are you talking about?7
@@ornf_ bunch of women in the streaming and gaming industry came out and shared their experiences regarding sexual harrasment. A bunch of guys in the gaming/streaming industry were called out, and some of them were found to be talking with minors. Streamers like Fed admitted to sexually harrasing Yvonnie and Lily, two female streamers in offlineTV. All the allegations came out this week, and it seems super bad for streaming in general.
people starve to death but rich streamers half naked require respect, respect my gender while i disrespect cows being raped in slaughterhouse for my taste bud.. similar to streaming but the cow isnt concentent and the streamer is.
Gabriel Email what
I’m seeing some people in the comments with some odd attitudes.
Absolutely, men are also victims of particular issues. But right now we’re talking about women, and that isn’t a diminishment to other experiences of other groups.
It's very common for women to speak for men's experience in a dismissive way, so you can't blame that reaction.
I personally was one of those "It's not that black lives matter. It's all lives." and honestly, it's just the fear of being left behind. Similarly, people are dismissive and harmful towards these types of causes because they feel it can "grow out of hand" with no real evidence to prove so.
A lot of us are probably thinking "Aren't we going to be on the other end of the stick, soon?" if stuff like cancel-culture grows out of hand.
My new view point is to just chill. Let things move along as they are. A good cause is a good cause, so only step up when things actually go wrong. Dismissing a cause because it isn't "the perfect, All Lives Matter" is incredibly harmful.
This is literally the same as "but what about Hillary's emails?!" in order to excuse bad behavior.
@Thomas Clifford No, you can't and that's a pretty tortured way to put it, it's not a matter of not validating, it's getting spoken for in an actively undermining way, so I don't blame that reaction. If both genders are dismissive of the other, I wonder which one you are talking about.
to me at least its not about men vs women. its about overblowing the issue and expecting everyone on the internet to be a nice person. The world is full of assholes and will always be full of assholes, its impossible to expect communities to not have assholes and everyone to be nice to everyone. but thats the smaller issue
Why i think its overblown is because the internet offers us so many tools to block said assholes from our social circle so to speak. muting, blocking, reporting for gameflow disturbance is almost always available(although being inted because you didn t give attention to one of those cunts is pretty infuriating and badly delt with in certain games).
now i will agree that women probably do deal with more of this shit and a different version of this shit than men but it doesn t absolve them from their own responsibility to curate their environment i feel.
It breaks my heart to hear that these girls/women actually feel guilty for rejecting people.
Imagine a heterosexual guy, lets call him Bob, who gets rejected by his crush and tells her that its his fault that he's now depressed. Now, imagine that an 80 year old woman, or a man, or someone else that Bob did not see as a viable sexual candidate, told Bob "if you don't have sex with me, I will be depressed". Maybe there exists a rare Bob that will feel responsible and guilty for turning them down, but the VAST majority of Bobs aren't going to think of themselves as doing anything wrong. Bob, on average, has no compunction about turning down a woman who's too fat or too tall or has a weird looking nose, no matter how sad that makes her. These men don't want a world in which looks don't matter, they want a world in which men don't have to care about how they look but women do. And that isnt something anyone should feel guilty about shitting on
100% this 🙌
Not to be confused and triggered, but guys also deal with ' what do you say that is right? ' I've noticed when trying to talk to women on gaming chat sites there is no right thing to say, they'll either ignore you, talk to you or insult you for the person they think you are it feels like there is nothing I can do or say because they've already judged you on being male.
As you age, you start to pry the difference between your self and your expectations with people being depressed and lonely more these days, they also feel reaching out to someone is a way to ' fix ' their situation. There is a fucked up dynamic on both sides where women have to suffer because men often feel they need a woman for x or x and then women expect all men to be that way and treat all men like they want x or x from them. Personally as someone who grew up without a mother I found it made me more dependent on wanting that kind of love from someone which is becoming more common in this generation with broken homes. On the other hand some women play into this for money, fame or attention which also causes a cycle in males.
A revelation I just had thinking on this subject is a lot of guys feel low esteem and unwanted. A lot of them try to talk to women honestly and try there best only to be ignored, ghosted or labelled some women call you good, a nice person some women put you down hard. Personally as a kid I was hit on by older women and also encountered women who were sexual with me, which has kind of imprinted on me and made things a little difficult in later life maybe other guys have had the same experience and don't know how to act in a normal relationship because of this. It is an interesting side topic for this discussion.
Tl;dr things are changing and its hard to deal with those changes with different expectations and toxic things on both sides and that creates a cycle of low esteem on both sides. --
This was very enlightening and encouraged internal reflection for me. With that said, in terms of what women gamers can do, I would encourage them to keep interacting in games openly. One said that the behaviour is more prevalent in some games- My personal assumption is it is more common in games with a lesser female presence.
WoW and other MMOs seem to have a larger female presence, with many couples playing together and such. This could just be because of the need for co-operation in raids and such. Perhaps there are reasons OW is more popular with women- or not. Again it is possible that they are just more vocal there than in other shooters because the gameplay dictates the necessity of communication and team-play.
This might be related to the thread that was brought up about region being a factor. The general consensus is that NA has better team-play but not as high performing individuals, whereas EU is more toxic with a higher focus on individual performance. Hence toxicity in general, and thus also woman-trolling, might be more prevalent on EU.
So I regret how I have perceived and interacted with women in games at times. I am not toxic or sexual or harassing, but I am still prejudiced for sure. For me it is a combination of surprise that there is a girl actually talking, which is undeniably an event due to its rarity, but also my own ego and a natural feeling of the need to perform in front of them. I do suffer from feelings of inferiority in general and so that likely plays a part.
It is something I have been working on with just a vague sense of it not "being me" before this video. I deal with toxicity very poorly myself so I think it was an empathetic reaction to my own behaviour. After hearing about the frequency and effects on the victims, I have a new level of clarity and it has actually altered my framework. So thanks to everyone involved for that.
With that said, please keep fighting the good fight. Normalize women in games. I think some guys (including me) treat games as a way to avoid their insecurities about social interactions so when that avoidance opportunity gets interrupted they don't know how to react. It is not healthy I admit. Stand up for yourself and for your friends. (I love the advice for defending someone- make it about the perpetrator not the victim). I think that will really tackle one of the root causes- "There are no girls on the internet".
We need more wider discussions like this, too. If it wasn't for my unwillingness to be on camera due to lack of self esteem, I would be happy to discuss my own perspective with Dr K. Full disclosure- I am a bit like the "incels" interviewed- not exactly the stereotypical woman troll - (do we need a new word for this by the way?) - but I definitely think I have some of the same thought processes as them, and I have previous experiences to share on the topic.
The toxicity stems from the competitive nature of games and their popularity. That's why Siege, LoL, Dota, and so on are such bad places.
I think that difference between NA and Eu comes from the simple fact that Europe has many countries with different languages and cultures. I have often been in situations where communicating even basic things with other players was an impossible task. It also makes grouping with randoms pretty uncommon.
Really interesting and encouraging thoughts, thank you for sharing.
Personally, as a woman, I never play online games that are cooperative or require interactions with other players unless I know the players irl and they are my friends, I want to play in order to have a good time, and I know that I don't need to compete either cause if I want to show off, I can always beat souls games that are way more difficult than most online games or do speedruns. I am not anyone's mother, especially I don't play videogames to be someone's mother.
I found the comment about perceiving hunger to be interesting. Particularly spot on.
It seems like this bandaid fix. I think the uncertainty on what they're looking for in uncertainty bred in men to an exceeding degree. Emotional connections, expressing emotions and platonic love is discouraged. Contact is impressed upon people to be acceptable in sexual context, conquest and acquisition of a partner and fulfilling these needs.
Sometimes people just want a friend, a partner, some contact or just a vent. It's like those things are unacceptable, so you never know it's what you need and you just keep filling the void with those kinds of actions and seeking out the wrong things. I felt caught in that net for a long time.
no men just want a gf and most guys get zero play
When she said rainbow six siege I died a little on the inside, because she is so real.
The issue with simps is obsessive interest. Simps can be on the stalkerish side, and there are also some people who go from assholes to simps, but then thats an act because now you're a "challenge". Both assholes and simps can be tiring to deal with and/or a creeper threat.
As a woman online, I relate. It's like men online have never interacted with a girl before
The sad thing is you’re right, a lot of guys are not socialized due to toxic gender roles in our society and this results in things like bullying, sexism, etc.
They probably haven't.
Probably because they haven’t lol we would have to change as a community rather then the individual
@@twitchtheking4950 Their are a multitude of reasons for this, but toxic gender roles aren't one of them.
They probably haven't because women are also very judgemental towards men, and most of men never have relationships nowadays after feminist sexual liberation
My heart broke a little at, "I want to be okay". Very powerful guided meditation.
Strategic games tend to be more toxic, the less accepting of casuals a game is, the more 'jokes" you get, from my perspective.
On the other side, the more accepting of casuals, the more romantic messages you get.
Competititve*
yeah,mmo ffor example are much nicer to women I guess
Hell no, replace the word "strategic" with "male".
If a fandom or game is heavily male numerically it will be extremely toxic to female players. The more female players leak into a fandom the less toxic it gets towards women as men get over women being there. If it was just toxic to casuals you wouldn't get harassed the first time you speak on voice chat.
I’m glad this happened, it’s given me a lot of insight on how I could work to be better in the communities I participate in. Thanks for doing this.
Thanks for caring :)
Any other girls here got super emotional because it hit too hard home? Actually started crying by the end .-.
You are a great Therapist Dr. Kanojia and I send you my condolences about Bryon. The videos hit home and I'm learning so much from them dealing with depression for a long time. Been meditating and that helps and wanted to say that you did great work with him.
I remember a few months ago, I had a dumb guy on my team in call of duty say that 'go back to the kitchen' joke and I just said to him 'go back to fixing your house' and 'go back to your garage with your tools'.. he pretty much didn't say much after that xD, but like there are worse things said in the gaming community by some f*knuts to women that just make me want to go through the mic and slap them (like in ghostdad (even though in that, it was strangling))
This is 3 years old and still nothing has changed about the female expierience in the digital world, it is exhausting
I'd like to share a little story about a time I "helped" a woman that I used to play Dota with. I don't consider myself a simp in the slightest BUT there was a time that I needed to intervene in a situation because I was an admin in the discord channel. The woman in question had been a channel regular. Another male player who was newer to the channel started asking the female deeply personal questions to the point where it was obvious she was being put in the spotlight because he had some weird ideas about women prior to joining the channel. I let it play out for a bit between them because she was capable of defending herself but I had to eventually give the guy an ultimatum to either chill out or get kicked. Mostly because he was making the channel uncomfortable for her but the thing is...I would have done the same thing for a guy. So I don't think it was simping.
Simp is an overused word rn. Anytime you be decent you’ll be called a simp because it’s a meme, so you’re fine dude.
You did good my man
not a simp in the slightest.
@JonnyC 289 but the thing is...I have. I agree that as a male, I'm probably less likely to view another male as a victim or whatever but when stuff has gotten heated and out of control with guys in the channel, I've done the same thing.
@Jeff B That's pretty much how it went. I didn't even have that conversation with her around. It was behind the scenes.
EDIT: oh hey someone mentioned it 46:50
In part, some of this is evolved from the old rule on the internet "there are no girls on the internet" and "tits or gtfo" when involving women in online discussions. The foundation of that rule was that women generally are generally put on a pedestal by guys, because of potential dating opportunities or because of social reasons (girl can ruin your dating chances or social group). But with the internet, neither of these things exist, so they are useless drivel to focus on. In comparison, guys talk a lot different to each other than to girls, much of the time being absurdly abrasive to each other, so the general rule was to treat everyone as a "guy" regardless, otherwise it would tend to derail conversations. Pretty much the exact opposite of this mindset is now what we know as being a "simp", where all they do is praise a girl for their presence and acknowledgement.
In some ways, I think a lot of women don't understand how guys interact with each other. But I know with the internet it removes the whole social backlash aspect to any social relationship, so the most negative aspects of people will always be amplified. And we have to realize the people that use the internet the most and use it for socializing generally aren't the people that were socially successful in their actual daily lives. And with these internet conversations, I think it'd help for people to take them less seriously than they do. Words and these people can never hurt you, as long as you don't link you real identity to online identity.
Women are sooo clueless about how guys interact with each other, and they sure have a lot of audacity telling us how _we're_ the ignorant ones doing everything wrong
I just want to say that this stream was super enlightening. As a male who plays video games often I've never really thought about how oppressed women must feel when they play games. I think for the most part males who play video don't even have this on their radar which is something I think really needs to change in the gaming community. I don't now whether I've been one of these people who are unintentionally toxic in video games, but I know after seeing this stream that a big reason why we guys don't fight for this issue is because we barely even know about it, or if we do then we avoid thinking about it. Thank you doctor k for being a part of this community and helping all of us grow
Great to see you touch on this. It's true that there is a lot of toxic behaviour towards women in gaming, but often times those same people are toxic to everyone. It's part of a bigger problem.
One thing that is equal for every one is the mute button (which is available in pretty much any multiplayer game)
I do think other guys can help out the situation some times. I found the best way to go about this with out being instantly deemed "white-knight-simp-cuck" is to talk to the girl instead of the toxic person. Ask if they feel harassed. Encourage them to speak up. If the toxic person responds poorly to being to being told off, tell him to fuck off and tell the girl to mute the clown.
It's so sad that this is happening. It makes it harder for normal girls and guys to connect with each other. In the end, everyone suffers.
In my youth girls playing games seemed rare,but my friends n i always wished girls played games more back then because we liked girls and wanted to interact with them more. Sad times what males of today have become. You are all brave and beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
A lot of the "How do we fix this?" comes down to teaching our next generations how to behave appropriately in society, even under the guise of anonymity on the internet. There comes a point in each individual's life that they're beyond repair from a simple slap on the wrist/incremental redirection. It would require an entire restructuring of the way they think, their habits and how they operate in order to get rid of the toxic behaviors that have been bred into them, through their experiences in the world and on the internet, in any sort of a timely manner. In my opinion it requires an entire disconnect from the internet for future generations, during their early formative years, to make sure they're taught how to properly interact with other human beings. Socialization on the internet is pure chaos and socializing kids in pure chaos, where there are no real repercussions for their actions, has led us to where we are now. People need structure in order to operate in society in a constructive way.
Anonymity and behaving don’t mix ever. Millions of people around the world use the anonymity of the internet to vent their anger and frustration, and I think that’s actually a good thing. Because if it doesn’t go somewhere it either stays bottled up or it goes somewhere else. I personally workout four days a week to vent my pent up energy but I know many people use the internet as a tool to relieve stress; even if it means saying bad things to another person
Or more efficient reporting systems. Instead of banning me for shitting on noobs, how about ban the fuckers that are sending these girls death threats
Or guide your kids to not open up emotionally over the internet. There's always going to be bad people. You need to teach them how to deal with it
Less: Huh? How does that apply to this conversation? None of these women were talking about opening up emotionally on the internet. They were just being themselves in a game and yet they can't do that without being targeted.
this is utopia
36:30 That's exactly why I don't speak in games... I don't even play games like rainbow 6 siege or overwatch anymore, I've switched almost completely to casual games cause they are single player or - when multiplayer - there's way less toxicity and/or no need to speak
Reading comments like yours really breaks my heart. I have a little sister that loves to play competitive games and I fear the harassment she will face if she continues to be active online in the future. Honestly I think the only solution to all of this would be to call out the jerks and mock them. Hopefully in the future we’ll be nicer to everyone.
hmm, so i met this girl a long time ago. i never had a father and i never had anyone to share anything with, not a single person would understand me and i've been alone and dependant on no one else then myself for as long as i can remember. this girl ended up giving me all those things i never had. she ended up being drained by me that was an empty body and when she got too low she ended it. wchich is fair, but then what happened was that i was left all alone, with no one else, back to square one which is a time i can't even remember. i ende up trying to kill myself, not because i was trying to get her attention, but because i felt like the whole world was falling down on me and since i had no one to go to for help, since no one would understand me, i had to take matters in my own hands and end my life before i get smashed by this big world smashing me. maybe something terrible happened to me when i was a child, but i don't trust a soul other then Dr. K, and all the poeple that have gone through similar stuff. maybe this will give some girls a perspective on why the guy might be doing what he is doing. me and the girl are on good terms now and we talk about life and stuff like that. this isn't the only reason, but you know, i feel like i see this in a lot of people. fyi im all fine now, figure out alot, but most importantly i have found the tools to deal with all of this shit.
14:30 Siege is notoriously toxic, especially for women. The community is even toxic to the women who work in the industry i.e. casters, presenters, pro players.
Rest in peace reckful and thank you man for trying to help him
I wanna be in fucking heaven with you
Many people love you.
Talk to someone about ur thoughts please
@@agarkennystv4340 ok now that just got concerning real fast
I'm okay don't worry it just really hit me hard
17:50
The silence coming from all of them is almost deafening
This was interesting thanks for sharing! Whilst my experiences as a female gamer have not been as extreme as these ladies, I often have the sensation of having to defend myself and my interests. I get the vibe a lot of men are suspicious of women in these communities, its like they think we're only here for attention? It can be quite alienating... It's probably why I stick to solo games.
I get suspicious because women are usually very hostile, and they don't accept criticism without taking it to personal or feminist view. My fear is with more women in games, they'll complain more and ruin game experience formen use to relax and forget about our society's problems, including forgetting the oppressive feminism itself.
@@away5534 This isn't an insult, but please, get some help. If you honestly feel that women are "usually very hostile" and complain and ruin everything you enjoy then you really need to root out where that comes from and address it.
@@DimaRakesah right. Not hostile at all...
@@DimaRakesah perhaps it comes from women being hostile to the things he enjoys. You should go tell the millions of women calling men trash to go get some help, but let's be real you don't care about that at all.
@@chillinkrillin1378 why do you think we call them trash ☺️
I know there is a lot going on, but talking about eating disorders like binge eating, restricting, purging, etc. would be really interesting. I know tons of people who deal with it on a daily basis including myself
One thing that wasn't mentioned in the video but is relevant is that men use anonymity to vent their frustration with or lack of interaction with women. Because of this they express their frustration in an anonymous atmosphere where they can rip women apart or pursue them without consequences that would exist IRL. Then because men band together in pursuit and women are a minority and often don't back each other up, and men are pushed from defending with the simp or whiteknight label, it is perpetuated.
in my personal experience i was asked if i am a girl and the players behaviour never changed. they were never mean to me, acted mysogynistic or treated me unfairly. although i could see in my own behaviour (by behaviour i mean generally thoughts and very rarely messages) a bias towards other women/girls who play the game, as in if i saw a "girly" name sporting a female character i would ask them if they're a girl and i would sometimes make comments like "typical gamer girl, losing". i noticed it and after i became aware i started controlling it more. its interesting how as an actual "gamer girl" i would almost stigmatize someone of the same kind.
Self awareness is key.
Great honesty
It's often internalised misogyny.
And also you are encouraged to lash out at other women to be accepted by and fit in with the male group. You become "one of the guys" by being "not like other girls." So it makes you feel special for being different, but also accepted as part of the group. It can be a highly addictive combo.
As a girl who plays Siege, it is definitely the roll of the dice, especially if you're solo-queuing. It's easier to try and convince them that you're a small boy than a woman, because they bully kids or 'squeakers' but at least they probably won't harass you or team kill you, where they will if you're a girl. It can be really rough. Not all guys are like that, of course. But it really is like a 50/50 or higher chance that at least 1 of the 4 other players are going to harass you, whether they're riding on the meme ("IS THAT A GORL?!") or if they genuinely hate women. It can really ruin the mood while gaming. And you know you can't mess up, because if you do, then it's because you're a girl and not because you had a bad game or that they're actively ruining your vibe.
52:27
ruclips.net/video/0thpEyEwi80/видео.html
What she starts talking about here is now referred to as "born sexy yesterday", she began to describe it but got a little lost in the details. It's mainly about finding a woman who is immature mentally yet mature sexually who doesn't yet know about other men being better than him, so she treats him like he's top shit.
ah thanks for this link it truly is explaining a lot.
Seeing dr k talk not just honestly inspires me incredibly further than any other content creator on RUclips. You are a blessing.
Simping, sexualizing, treating women like NPCs, and overall toxic behavior towards women in gaming is a real problem that most guys don't experience and don't understand. We need to do something to tone all that toxic shit down.
That being said, I'm not sure whether most women actually want to be treated like a guy.
Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of women that have the character for it and can fit right into a group of guys that shit-talk each other left and right. This is assuming, of course, none of the guys do any creepy shit.
But I've also encountered many women in gaming that will say "just treat me like one of the guys" and then fold the second someone jabs at that with something gender-neutral like "you're trash" or even non-compliance like "you can find your own ammo".
Not wanting men to be creeps is absolutely justified. That's something nobody should have to endure.
But don't tell men that you want to be treated like one of the guys if what you actually want is special treatment; that's confusing for everyone involved.
Guys love gaming. I think most of us would agree that women should be able to join that community and find it enjoyable. Help us help you and tell those of us with a mental age above 12 what you would consider to be fair treatment beyond removing the creepy behavior.
I agree 100%. Im a girl and id say my friend groups treat me like 'a guy'. But sometimes when a guy says like 'you can find your own ammo' I can't tell if they resent helping me to avoid being seen as a simp to the guys or if its truly unbiased... knowing how women in gaming are represented Im always paranoid if the representation as a girl gamer is making the friend group feel weird. Also 200% agree there are girls who think they should be accepted but still on a minor level seek the attention and expect some sort of special treatment.
Hm. I don't think preferring a different style of communication, like being more coöperative and having less abbrassive style of humor and poking fun at each other in a lighter way necessarily means wanting special treatment. At that point when a woman who has that kind of preference deals with that, it isn't a sexist issue, but a clash of preference/interest/communication style, which means that that woman would just need to look further for other people to play with who do have similar preferences.
I am a woman who has pretended to be a guy online before and I have played with guys who weren't abbrassive like that. I don't play hyper competitive games though, because I am too sensitive to handle it because of mental issues and I know lots of guys who have the same issue and avoid certain games because of that.
Why is it assumed that women *want* or require special treatment?
Even as a guy, if another dude is insufferable in my gaming session, I would block his ass out. No one should be obnoxious, especially if you are just wanted to play videogames online. Only trolls asshole enjoy being denigrated/denigrate in order to get any type of reaction.
Listening to this three years later, I have a couple thoughts.
I can only speak to my own experience, but when i was growing up I was romantically challenged and was made fun of by girls in school for liking games and scifi and stuff. When i started interacting with people far away over the internet, whenever I was treated nicely by girls on chats, I would get extremely obsessed due to my inexperience. While it never led me to treat girls like what is being described here, I can understand why some with poor upbringing or other issues might take that obsession further, especially over the internet where there is very little consequences for that behavior.
Now this is just a theory, but on another front i bet many young men may be so afraid of women for real or imagined reasons, they go into communities almost as a way to hide from women, and when one shows up they feel like they have to test them. They almost expect a woman to be a certain way and they have to see if they will take their trash jokes or try to drive them out so they can once again be "safe".
I unfortunately don't have any insight on to how or if these issues are solvable from the woman's side, but I would only encourage for men to work on their insecurities, because I don't see secure people behaving like this.
35:20 "What is life without emojis ?" - Dr K 2020 😂😂😅🤣
😔👊
I love Dr. K's use of y'all 😊
"Who and what is a Belle Delphine?".... do not ask Dr. K, please... You don't want to know.
"shes the zoomer britney spears pushed to 11" idk why no one said that
There is a series on yt called "OMG A GIRL" its basically clips of people treating her in r6s like shit :)
why the smiley face?
She posted that on twitter, the comments were the exact same as the video.
Jeff B Im surprised you’ve seen Dr. K videos but haven’t really learned anything from them if they include people that don’t look like you. Maybe it’s time to be open-minded.
My guide/opinion on the options you have as a gamer girl when dealing with this stuff:
Men who tell you to go to the kitchen or something on that level (I would consider that mild harassment, and I think it only becomes annoying when it starts happening often, correct me if I am wrong) usually do it because they find it hilarious and are hoping for a reaction in some way and/or to get you annoyed. It's the same thing as to why people laugh when someone falls in a stupid way or whatever. The best way to deal with that, if it triggers you, is to completely ignore that person without commenting on it, and muting them if that's an option. You could come up with a witty response that could work I guess, but why bother?
That applies to other more fucked up comments too, such as if someone is saying something creepy or wanting nude pics or anything of that sort. The vast majority of the men who do that (or maybe all of them, I don't know) are:
a) lonely and socially awkward
b) have really low self-esteem, especially when it comes to interacting with women
c) they either want to have sex with you (disregarding the fact that even if you were up to it, it couldnt physically happen) and are trying to get your attention (and doing it in a way that is painful to watch), or they want to have sex with you (I hope you are noticing the trend) but they know they will be rejected - since it has happened to them every single time so far, both irl and online. So instead, they say hurtful things - sort of projecting on you their huge pain and hatered that has built up in them due to those numerous rejections.
I think if you absolutely have to answer to those people, the best way to do it is to be short, aggressive and 100% serious (trying to be funny is a really bad idea, it encourages people to continue talking more often that not). BUT NOT ANGRY - this is by far the most important thing! In fact, I think any emotional response is often going to have the opposite effect of what you were hoping for.
Let's keep in mind that those men are very weak and emotionally fragile people. You have to make sure they understand that you are not interested in them and are not interested continuing the conversation with them in a very clear, compact way that cannot be misinterpreted. I see so many women who would get into those long, heated discussions with men, that ultimately only end up huring them more. And sometimes they even continue playing or talking to them afterwards, which is absolutely mindboggling to me!
If this doesn't work and they keep blabbing away, muting them and reporting them seems to me like the only option.
Also, I personally never defend women online who are treated like that, because I believe women are capable enough to handle with the situation on their own - and also it is their personal responsibility. The only exception I would make would be if the person getting harassed is a young kid. However, I have seen men trying to defend a girl, and then that girl turns on them instead - I kind of understand why that might happen, but it's really annoying to see it happen. Even if they didn't do it in the way you were hoping, you don't need to make enemies out of people with supposedly good intentions (okay, admittedly some of those men are probably trying to fuck you too, but that's another topic).
This I think is what you can do that is within your power as a girl gamer, on your own. What can be done as a community is a much bigger and more complicated topic.
I have stopped playing some games due to toxicity as well by the way, league of legends and mordhau being two examples, so this is obviously a huge problem for everyone, not just women. If you are not enjoying the game, the community, and are sick of having to ignore people and getting that same negative attention, then maybe it's time to do something else with your life?
And lastly, I would add that I have seen girls who are amazing at dealing with this kind of stuff succesfully, including one of my ex-girlfriends who was a passionate gamer. So it definitely can be done. It has never been a problem for her, in fact she almost enjoyed it when someone did that stuff, because she could shut them down really hard, and she had fun with it.
Without trying to be hurting anyone's feelings, some of the girls in this video (and I am sure many other gamer girls) seem very shy and socially awkward/unskilled, and also quite fragile emotionally, which is a pretty bad combination in this kind of environment - considering multiplayer games, especially the more competitive ones, tend to be filled with toxicity of varying degrees. Something to consider.
tl;dr:
Use the mute button. Shut people down hard and with minimum amount of words. Don't respond emotionally to attacks, biggest one being anger. Be more confident in your online interactions.
Have a nice day!
Whew lad that's one big wall of text. I stopped reading when you called someone saying "go back to the kitchen" over the internet "harassment."
Men have been calling each other the worst stuff imaginable in gaming FOREVER, we don't go whine about and start calling it "harassment."
Get over it. Get some thicker skin.
Watching this to further educate myself
cheers brother. we need to constantly challenge our beliefs and worldviews. it only does good to educate ourselves on other individual's experiences.
Part of the problem is things like egirls.gg that don’t help blend boy and girl gamers but instead say “hey, we know it’s impossible to get a friend who is a girl to play games with you, so we are putting them on a pedestal for you to buy!” This dynamic can’t coexist healthily when trying to minimize the gender boundaries
Actually I heard they had to rebrand they are called epal or something
A R yeah they did, but I’m just getting the point across that things like onlyfans/erotic streams/epal/porn skew the view of women. Being a dick to women gamers is bad, but you can also tell there’s something wrong when people are overly nice and are just trying to get a girl to be their e-girlfriend (AKA- Simping)
Thomas Clifford I agree that it’s a symptom, it feels like a loop to me. Men can’t deal with women so they pay for egirls, which strengthens their ability to not deal properly with women so they pay for onlyfans, which warps their image of women so they pay for more egirls, it’s a brutal cycle.
@@Mygary It certainly doesn't help when boys who don't interact with girls irl now see that this is how girls are treated in their "gaming life" where they spend most of their freetime in.
shouldn't even advertise this site in a community like ours lol
Thank you Dr K and more importantly thank you to the six women who participated, your opinions, views and experiences are welcome and need to be heard so our community can grow and improve.
Weird seeing Dr. K being the one at a loss, re: "what is a simp?"
I don't talk on mic anymore because of how toxic some people can get, thankfully most are pretty normal
Thanks for this video. I would love to see more like it exploring the free-range racism, homophobia, and other social issues that are evvvvverywhere in video games.